Why not just go from the 109 to the 262?
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2024
- In this video Military Aviation History and Military History Visualized talk about the problems going from the a piston-engine aircraft to a jet-powered aircraft, exemplified by the Me 109 and Me 262.
Big thank you to Felix Wander for many of the information that went into this video and for the Deutsche Museum München - Flugwerft Schleißheim for making this video possible. Check out their Channel here: / deutschesmuseum
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» SOURCES «
Schabel, Ralf: Die Illusion der Wunderwaffen. Die Rolle der Düsenflugzeuge und Flugabwehrraketen in der Rüstungspolitik des Dritten Reiches
Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg - Band 7: Das Deutsche Reich in der Defensive. Strategischer Luftkrieg in Europa, Krieg im Westen und in Ostasien 1943-1944/1945
Speaking from experience, I'm a factory worker and have been through the process of starting up a line to produce a new product several times. The process is quite difficult when the new product is simply a different and better version of the previous product. An entirely different product would be a whole new level of problems and issues. This is a point that is rarely brought up in this discussion. Good on you sir.
The Germans had many models of tanks, with many modifications added on by the Wehrmacht. This had the effect of the production of highly versatile equipment which the armed forces knew it needed: but at what cost? Numbers.
Jonathan Parshall investigates the varying methods of production between the US, USSR and GE at 26:20.
2013 International Conference on WWII - Kursk The Epic Armored Engagement
ruclips.net/video/N6xLMUifbxQ/видео.html
How does one go their entire life working on a factory floor?
@@migkillerphantom Simple, factory jobs are the best paying jobs in the area that don't require a degree.
@@migkillerphantom not everybody can afford to spend time and money on a degree. For those people factories offer good money without the need of a degree.
@@kyller9991 what would you have done if someone like me came along and automated your job while you were still young or middle aged? I always wonder what goes through the minds of people like you.
He gave me 5min to talk about this. I might have overshoot that by a tiny margin...
So who's video is it then?
he didnt specify german minutes tho
Im perfectly fine with that. You guys make a excellent team and i look forward to any possible future collaborations
Easier to give long bursts with words than bullets - great stream of thought on the topic, as model airplane kits are promoted with combat in the air, not at the assembly plant or in the hanger with the ground crew working on it.
Yeah, we're all so upset by receiving extra bonus information from you. ;)
"...the first sign of a faulty engine was when it gave up on the pilot in operation, which was...sub-optimal."
Now THAT sir, is an understatement of the grandest scale 😂
@Mists & Shadows the real advantages of the 262 vs piston powered fighters were:
1. it ran on cheap and plentiful fuel. synthetic diesel fuels and kerosene are cheap(er) to make. synthetic, high octane gasoline, not so much. it takes at least one additional stage (surface, resources and energy in a refinery) to perform alkylation. remember, germany had lost control over the Romanian oil fields by late 1944.
2. it had a far superior rate of climb at high speeds than any piston powered aircraft. at 400mph it would outclimb anything else in the sky.
3. it carried 4x30mm. enough to deliver a deadly blow to 4-engined bombers in one well aimed pass. performed semi-head-on in a curving trajectory, the pilot could avoid being a sitting duck up to the last moment, when he opened fire. not easy, not even in a simulator, but highly effective.
4. resistance to overspeed meant that the 262 could be flown fast in combat in a controlled manner. it just flies completely differently than anything else in the sky. (at least that is what one learns from reading pilot reports.)
You are right about the Ta-152 (C and H respectively) being superior WW2 fighters. However, they represent the pinnacle of their breed, while the 262 was but a fledgling, the first of its kind: the fast hard-hitting jet interceptor that kills a bomber in a single pass.
Spoken like an engineer, example: stress fracturing will reduce engine performance exponentially in midflight. Lol
@Mists & Shadows I understand your point on fuel consumption and refinery capacity, however, the process of synthesising high-octane fuels for piston engines is orders of magnitude more complex. Alkylation, the only mass process available at the time (besides the use of tetraethyl lead, the almost unobtainable isooctane or the specialty product kybol, which was produced at lower numbers) was used to produce some higher-octane components in order to boost the low octane numbers of the naphtha fraction coming out of the FT process.
The potential gain of focusing on high-octane fuel for piston powered planes was not deemed enough to recoup the consumption advantage from a fuels production point. Pushing jet aircraft remained valid, especially under restricted refinery capacity. Especially since the jets of the time had such low hours between rebuild/discard, they could be operated on diesel fuel.
I understand your point of introducing the 262 in (the summer of) 1943, but in the end, the Nazi leadership failed in numerous other respects, for instance to attempt to negotiate peace talks with the Soviets, who were paying an inordinate toll for their "victories". The use of advanced weapons was directed according to propaganda goals, instead of focusing on strategic targets, such as British ports or Russian power generation in their "hinterland". That and the negligence of strategic bombing (also the defence against it with SAM) shows how limited the understanding of strategy was in the Nazi leadership.
Luckily for all of us, I am German and quite happy for the (political) outcome, for the picture that the people I have met, who lived in those times, was no place I'd like to be in. The music was great, tho'
@Mists & Shadows
That was an impressive comprehensive analysis of the problems with using the 262. Can you tell us how you gained so much knowledge on this topic? It seems you researched it at thesis level.
Thank you.
Why didn’t t-
Logistics. In war, the answer is always logistics.
George Sears ehhh, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. While I will agree that logistics plays a MAJOR factor in war, tactics and strategy can have a major factor as well.
Just looking at some of Germany’s early successes in 1939-1942 displays this factor. I
Okayish logistics but great tactics.
@@kingslushie1018 the answer is still logistics, the tactic dosent work without good logistics
Kel Thuzad ehh, the Germans Logistics in the eastern front were okay, but they had much better tactics. Now the western front was a completely different story. And that calls for needing much better logics and supply divisions.
Ahem.
Why didn't Germany make use of MW50, a technology that was fitted to the DB 603 and other engines in 1939
Why didn't Germany make use of the DB 603 in a fighter, It was tested and proven to be capable of power figures comparable to the Rolls-Royce Griffon, also in 1939.
I don't expect any answers for these, but feel free to try and find a few reasons these things never happened :P
@@Anastunsia After a short reseach: What did you mean? They did use it. It was for emergency power only, because you can't use it for a prologned time. Also you loose power the higher you fly. So it's not a suitable replacement for normal airplane fuel.
In the early 1970's I had a colleague at work who had been a former Luftwaffe bomber pilot since the beginning of the war - he flew Heinkel 111's during the Battle of Britain - and he told me that at the end of the war, like Bismarck said, it wasn't the lack of pilots or aircraft that crippled the Luftwaffe, airfields were full of redundant planes, it was the chronic lack of fuel. Without fuel, a whole Air Fleet is grounded and the pilots twiddle their thumbs...! 😕
P.S.
He was a great chap and one of the wittiest persons I have ever met !
I found a table somewhere or other listing the oil production of various countries in 1940 and the difference between the amount of oil the Allies had access to compared to the Axis looked like the Allies had used a cheat code since it was so ridiculously large.
@@lunatickoala *Presses "Alt + Ctrl + X"*
*Types "Gas does grow on trees"*
Bam, problem solved.
@@lunatickoala ... america was producing 180 octane fuels .. germany had their aircraft running on low octane liquified coal ... go figure 😈
@@Crosshair84 ... cobsidering that the luftwaffle was running on liquefied coal/wood .. yes it does 😆
Figure that out - where did Germany get their oil? Romania, Soviet. Where did Britain get their oil - Iran, later Indonesia.
"make more Me262's !"
"but Sir, we don't have the resourc-"
"JUST DO IT"
*makes planes of wood*
Speer made that possible.
@@sjoormen1 idk the name of the plane but it's the vertical starting plane with a solid fuel rocket motor in the back , made to stop allied bombing,
@@pm6214 I believe that the aircraft was called the Natter.
“Sweet dreams are made of these...”
Yes the natter and volksjager had wings made of wood- but what I meant was, that Speer made possible, that there were more that enough of me262 made, but there were other shortages that negated whole effort. For me it is amazing, that new technology was made to produstion outdors with help of low skilled workers.
As a pilot with a lot of experience with both of these planes in War Thunder arcade, I have nothing substantial to say.
Arcade...
Arcade................
Well i have ACTUAL experience in the Bf/Me109 and Me262...
Simulator Battles count as actual experience right?
I have some limited experience on the IL-2 Sturmovik-Flight Sim: There you had to be careful with the throttle or the jetengine would catch fire. Of course the AI when flying the Me262 had none of those issues 🤬
"aRcAdE" RB and Sim here, so that basically makes me a 4 year veteran pilot right?
“Engines gave out mid-operation is kinda sub-optimal .” Oh I love how Bismarck try to sugarcoat the matter. 😂
They hadn't really worked out the materials to make reliable turbine blades. They were multicrystiline steel blades, and due to the heat and stress, they'd "creep" and stretch past desing limits in about 25 hours. Today we use single crystal nickel blades
@@blurglide The allies didn't have huge issues in their engines, and they were a heap more powerful.
@@1993Crag Whittle chose a simpler reliable design for his first engines as the exotic materials and the production techniques to use them.
@@1993Crag The Meteor and P-80 used an engine with a centrifugal flow compressor which is simpler than the engine used in the Me 262 which used an axial flow compressor. A centrifugal flow compressor can use a single large impeller which can be while an axial flow compressor requires several smaller impeller stages and the single large impeller is not only simpler but tougher. Also, there was a lot more experience with building centrifugal flow compressors as those were the sorts used in turbosuperchargers (as they were called at the time).
@@lunatickoala I'm aware of how a jet engine works. The allies had axial engines that were considerably more powerful and reliable en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan-Vickers_F.2
Even the best documentaries by the biggest tv producers cant compare to guys like these.
Beautiful collaboration, and some good points made that had been overlooked by myself and friends when we have discussed this very topic.
400 likes 0 dislikes
Everything is balanced as it should be.
Hey i am a man of the future, sadly theres one dislike now, from me nah ofc not
707 likes and still zero dislikes. this is weirding me out! Is this still youtube?
It’s at 19
Nice piece with great content. A real contrast to hyperbole that often gets broadcasts on cable channel programs ("could this have changed the course of war? .... If there was enough time?" ... ). Like the point about only 400 - 500 Me-262s actually became operational (out of 6,000 engines produced, 1,400 airframes produced)...
Just two thoughts:
1) the ME 262 engine had a operational estimated life time of only 25hrs... reality was even less. more like 10-12hrs because of the missing experience of all staff.
2) it takes some seconds until a Jet engine gains speed, so when giving "thottle" on the 262 it took a while until the aircraft reacted.
Greetings from the Flight Deck :)
JG-7 were averaging 12.5 hours between engine scrap.
Worse changes in throttle had to be carefully managed or the jet could flame out part of the reason the allies liked to pick them off on landing as they had to slow so much and it was a problem to abort the landing and make angels, in a turning fight the ME262 is toast against a Spitfire or Mustang
Both of your numbers are real, 25 hours for brand new engines and 10 to 15 hours at best for over hauld ones.
@@mandernachluca3774 To be fair the life expectancy for a Me262 was only a handful of missions, engine life not a huge concern.
@@AvaToyShow
Yeah, that's true.
To all the commenters "correcting" him with the term 'flameout' instead of 'burn out'-- I would have to say 'burn out' is more apt here, because what he's referring to is compressor surge that is caused by sudden shifts in the throttle.
The turbine/compressor array takes time to spool up in order to increase the pressure of the incoming air, much slower than the increased flow caused by a fuel valve opening wider. So pushing the throttle open could inject more fuel into the chamber than the compressor can catch up with. This would cause the burning fuel to blow out of the front.
I don't think it would cause a compressor surge. Generally a compressor surge happens if something disrupts the airflow to the compressor. This can for instance be forgein objects or high g manouvers.
I rather think this they experienced something similar to a "hot start" which even today can be a problem and destroy a turbine within seconds. If you start up a helicopter turbine for instance which isn't controlled by a FADEC you need to have constantly an eye on the EGT, the Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge. Because on startup, you introduce quite a lot of fuel for the amount of air the compressor pushes through the combustion chamber, which causes the temperatures to sky rocket. The thing is, jet turbines are basically air cooled. They always run with excess air in the combustion chamber. The air is used to dilute the flame and also cool the turbine section.
The temperature at the core of the flame is normally high enough to melt steel. Now if you introduce more fuel without more air, the flame gets bigger because it uses up more of the excess air, but now you have less cooling air left to cool the turbine section and this can cause mayor damage to the turbine. Basically and i'm not making this up, you start to melt the turbine section.
Looking very sharp in that 3 piece suit.
Awesome Museum !
If you go to Munich (for the Oktoberfest or else) make sure to visit Flugwerft Schleißheim. Its worth it!
Sadly they left the Ju52, V1, V2 and the Natter at the other Museum
Nice try - but Bernhard and Bismarck *are* the same person. You can't fool anyone these days with that CGI fakery. ;)
Nice suit aside, you can see by the lack of shadow on Bismarck's neck that he was inserted via computer generation thus proving either he or more probably Bernhard are in fact fictious. Great summary guy(s)!
Love this comment! 😀😁😂
5:16 is EXACTLY what I would say if Bernhard and I were the same person and didn't want people to know it.
Next he'll say he's from Bielefeld, to throw it in our faces even more... :P
Another splendid and informative collaboration as always.
The Me262 was in many ways the opposite of Kurt Tank's vision for the FW190. He saw the Bf-109 as overly maintenance intensive and performance oriented, and wanted a fighter which maintained that level of performance but did so in a way that adapted to wartime needs (i.e. air cooling, lower maintenance demands on less trained groundcrews, a tougher and more forgiving airframe). He summarized this as building a cavalry horse in the FW-190 versus the Bf-190 and Spitfire, which he saw as race horses. The Me-262, like many of Hitler's pet projects, prioritized technology over practical application, and went in exactly the opposite direction.
I always loved the 262, even since I collected aircraft models when I was a kid. Great video.
There's an interview with British test pilot Eric Brown where he says that the 262's engines were rated 25 hours before they were scrap, but in reality engine life was about 10 hours.
False - Service life 30hrs - manage properly then the 004 refurbished.
@@johndonaldson3619 Except that didn't happen there are multiple sources claiming much lower hours than the official figure.
@@johndonaldson3619 ... engibeered to 30hrs ... 20 hrs expected ... 10hrs real deal
@@johndonaldson3619 JG-7 were reporting 12.5 hours between engine scrap. Engine scrap means it would be unable to even be refurbished.
probably not an issue if they had spare engines lying around and not enough fuel to hit that 10 hour limit anyway.
The me-262 was not rough field capable not just because of the potential of fod damage, the nose wheel was prone to collapse. If you look at the. Film taken by the Germans themselves Towing the me-262 on the flight line they had a special harness. The harness put most of the load on the main gear and only use the nose gear for steering. Even on a concrete Runway a hard Landing could cause at landing gear collapse. Jeremy was short of all kinds of fuel that's why they're Navy what remained of it was an active most of the time, the Air Force only Rose after they had hoarded enough fuel for large-scale operations. This included the me-262. Junkers jumo jet aircraft engine was frozen in development. The engine was only good for about 25 hours operationally and then required replacement. This was a materials issue. Because of the rare Metals required to make the highly heat resistant materials needed for the stator vanes in the jet engine, they developed cracks since Germany did not have these materials. There was really not much they could do about it because they did not have the heat resistant materials. Another issue that occurred with early turbojets was cavitation. Cavitation would cause the engine to pulsate in its thrust output that's actually the input turbine blades were slipping because they were going too fast and you are not yet fully developed in their shape. The airframe itself other than the landing gear I know of no other problems. But the engines were really still almost prototype level. They froze the design and development so they could get aircraft in the air. They needed aircraft now not next year. Even the arado Blitz with the for BMW turbine engines was prone to cavitation.
Many years ago, the local CAF held a 'Gathering of Eagles', with a number of US and German pilots from WWII, where I met Gunther Rall. One of the other German pilots was a man who'd joined KG500 when it was transitioning to the 262, and he described one of the quirks of the 262 on the ground -- the nose wheel didn't steer; it castered; steering had to be done with differential thrust, brakes, or the rudder. At low speed, it was possible to brake one side too hard, and get the nose wheel turned 90° to the line of the aircraft... after which you couldn't get it back without someone going out to the plane and straighening out the nose wheel. Since then, I've wanted to make a diorama of a 262 on the apron with the canopy open, the pilot leaning against the nose with one hand while he kicks the turned-90° nose wheel to straighten it out.
@@seanmalloy7249 the nose wheel on the Messerschmitt 262 was very fragile.one has to wonder if the rush to convert the 262 from taildragger to tricycle landing gear was the problem with that. It could have been worse it could have had a landing skid I suppose. I never understood the German enthusiasm for not fitting a landing gear on high-performance aircraft.
Who would win in a fight: A plane commanded by
Military Aviation History, a tank commanded by Military History Visualized
or a ship commanded by Drachinifel?
My money's on the ship, even a destroyer's got a 2000 tonne weight advantage and a teensy bit more firepower. Unless the others got to pick the venue. If the fight takes place in the desert the ship's probably in a bit of trouble.
@@misterthegeoff9767 a ship in the desert can't sink.
Regarding airfield: The "Erprobung" of the ME262 under Major Nowotny had happenrd just 3 km from here on a set of 2 - 3 small airstrips in a 5-10km radius, gras only.
They had no complaints about the airstrip except the allied fighters lurking for the ME262 coming home and attacking on the final approach pretty close to the landing strip.
Therefore they ask for ME109 or FW as the most efficient protection during that particular time in flight.
FOR ALL THE FRIENDS OF TRUTH INSTEAD OF MYTH
★ there was no problem regarding intake - they put a cage in front of the engine on ground taxiing you could see on education film or Lehrfilme like that of Bär
★ it used the easiest available gasoline instead of that rare gas for piston engines at that point of the war
★ maintenance was NOT THAT NIGHTMARE, at least if you believe allied post war test pilots. Of cause engine change must be such a pain that it takes a whole day compared to 30 minutes - 30 minutes for the ME 262 and a day for a Mustang, Lightning, ...
★ american pilots loved the abilitites + ease of airfield maintenance expressed by their own words
For all friends of the stereotype "german overengineering" check what allied testpilots had to say linked below... and if you check the archives carefully enough you will find similiar accounts about overengineered german tanks from Panther to King Tiger regarding maintenance. Stereotypes do not help, it needs research in archives for every type or problem ... as shown above with the airfield and risks of engine intake, that might have existed in early days but were solved fast + cheap by a a kind of metal basket in shape of a half ball, at least here and in bavaria and the training group 300 (even though footage of such details is rare)
ruclips.net/video/kxRR2KgY5mo/видео.html
The airfeld and takeoff/landing thing would've been an unsolvable problem anywhere near a frontline..
If you add the fuel costs of the piston engine fighters required to protect vulnerable Me262s during takeoff and landing, then you get a better picture of just how wasteful that plane actually was.
The plane itself used vastly more fuel than the piston engined fighters it was supposed to replace, but it was actually useless without their active protection.
More Me262s would have shortened the war because they were a waste of fuel, manpower and industrial resources.
In practice the Me262 was a vanity project which only existed based on its awesome top speed and firepower, but the serious practical drawbacks were extreme and made it worse than useless.
@@pauligrossinoz Well, most planes needed that take off and landing protection during allied air supremacy, not just the ME 262 alone.
But it was the weakest spot of that plane as the allied had find out. And many decisions on the route from prototyoe to mass production had to be changed due to more and more missing raw materials.
It is too easy to judge afterwards.
If the allied had not found the weak spot what would you have said then?
It's better to listen to experienced ME 109 or FW 190 pilots moving to that ME262 fighter how they had judged on their part of missions than 75 years ...
And if I read about the nice comparison of sherman mass production + reliability + repairability + ... versus expensive, unreliable, slow Tiger or Panther people forget or ignore 3 major points:
★ who owned the battlefield after the tank battle and who had to retreat and self destroyed its tank
★ who paid the sacrifies when so many killed shermans were repaired and re crewed again and again? surviving crews thanked god to have escaped the sherman hell and talked about the fate of comrades that didn't make it.
They praised the tigers - for its fighting power, but mostly for its crew protection
★ who sufferred from lack of spare parts the most and is that caused by the tank design ?
It is not easy to judge cause it always depends on how well trained and equipped a crew is and how proper the tank is used in that particular situation cause a tiger attacking sherman in 500m like in normandy is not the best choice ...
Same for planes ... Many ME 109 pilots complained during and after the war that the ME 109 was outdated for years and a flxing coffin.
Would it have made more sense to produce twice as much ME 109 instead of ME 262 in a time with not enough trained pilots and the second half of the twice as muvh ME 109 grounded ?
The population was aware of the outdated ME109 and they called for a new and effective air defense. They would not have accepted the ME109 ...
There was a need for something new, at least innovative and a carrier of hope for more success.
The only fighter alternative would have been the impressive twin piston engine Do 335 "Pfeil" ... old tech at its peak .
But that Do 335 was also far away from combat readiness and mass production, but at least a superior fighter with its high speed and strong weapons and without the weak spot of the me262 landing ... but of cause with other weak spots the allied would have been able to find out.
A simply doubled ME 109 production would not have been such thread for allied bomber crews as half of the amount of ME 262 or Do 335 ... cause the allied day raid crews feared these jet attacks more and mire cause if the ME 262 reached the bombers it was too late for the bomber crews.
Amateurs think hi-tech aircraft specs.
Professionals think logistics.
You've created a valuable new iteration of the tactics/logistics axiom.
Your vid must be watched by everyone who asks "but shouldn't [insert weapon here] have received top priority? It would have changed the course of the war."
Well, professiobals actually think more often about high spec than you would thinkm it's integral, logistics are nothing if you try to fight guns with sticks.
Well, professiobals actually think more often about high spec than you would thinkm it's integral, logistics are nothing if you try to fight guns with sticks.
professionals think compromise between the two*
I dont need to watch the video for this answer.
Because you would lose production efficiency by switching factories....
Also fighters have more agility than jets..
*its hoi 4, for those who dont know
Excellently covered topic setting the Me 262 in its war time context. Must be recommended viewing. The engines were not the only problem.
Jet engines with their fewer parts could be built in numbers quickly and at relatively low cost. The engine problem was that the technology was not mature. The engine "faults" have to be seen in this light as is the very short engine life of less than 25 hours flying time (how did you know it was KO after 10?). The Jumo 004 was of axial design with a low cross sectional area (low drag and thus high speed plane). This was really pushing (world first) the technology of the day. While shortages of metal alloys for the turbine blades is often quoted as a problem, the other part of the problem is designing the combustion cans (Englander) to give an even flame temperature and to avoid hot spots (engine control) in the turbine blades under all operating conditions. The axial design cross-section made this all the more difficult. Of the 6000 Jumo engines made, how many were made with the envisaged metal alloys (to withstand the operating temperatures)? I assume the turbine blades were mass produced at a specialized factory.
The quantity and quality of German fuel is often a neglected topic. Lower quality fuel but 4 times as much of it required? The Jumo 004 fuel needs to be of a consistent quality (flame length etc) and thus should be regarded as a high spec fuel (if derived in part from coal it was probably very aromatic and thus not great for jet engines. Octane is not relevant for jet engines). The German airforce never had 100 octane fuel for its piston engined aircraft in significant quantites. It had to do with 85 octane or thereabouts. As noted below, even if all the airframes had been built a lack of fuel quality/availability would have stopped them flying.
"This plane is invincible!"
Starts turning
Mmm...
That three piece suit ist wunderbar...
All you need is bowler hat and you can conquer 1/4 of the globe XD
nice to put the face to the voice. great engineering episode!
Excellent subject. Thanks for the video
Excellent piece gentlemen. The complexity of the 262 airframe and the difficulty of dispersed production reminds me of a phrase used by the British radar pioneer Watson Watt (I think it was !). His mantra was (I recall from Len Deighton’s book) “ Second best, tomorrow”. Ie he would deliver a working system tomorrow but it wouldn’t be the best, sometimes it’s the speed/timing that counts.
Over complexity/perfectionism was an issue in many parts of the german system. The more complex you make something generally the materials, skill of those making/maintaining and repairing have to go up. That can easily become a bottleneck.
"Better is the enemy of good enough."
ADM Sergei Gorshkov.
@ Bismarck and Bernhard. I read an article in "Klassiker der Luftfahrt" a few years ago, which did some kind of the analysis, why it was not a bad idea switching to Jet engines. The production of an comparable Jumo 213 piston engine consumes much more materials and was constructed out of much more very precisely machined parts than a Jet engine. For example: the pistons, crankshaft, reduction gears, compressores and chargers and so on. An jet engine with an axial compressor, was built around one single turbine shaft, the only other very important system which need precise work was the fuel injection system. For the construction of a jet engine they expect only one third of the man hours needed to build the Jumo 213, which was considered the best piston engine available for the Luftwaffe. Further more the expected life time of an interceptor fighter of the western front had dropped down to 5 sorties, if it has contact with the enemy. If we considers that one sortie didn't last longer than 1,5 hours, the short engine life of a jet engine could be neglected.
The wings were also the limiting factor for spitfire production in 1940/41 :).
All excellent points.
I would only add that the blades in the jet engine have also be very precisely machined.
Good vid. You guys do great work.
Where can one get the little models in the background on the shelves? Great video as always.
A very interesting article/video especially regarding the Jumo 004B and of course the 262. The engine did had many flaws, suffering from using low quality alloys by using "soft" alloys that if not handled carefully it tended to contract or even bending resulting in very short lifespan, between 10 to 25 hours. But the Jumo 004B engines despite very high consumption and very low reliability it was costing (according to Wikipedia) RM10,000 for materials, the Jumo 004 also proved somewhat cheaper than the competing BMW 003, which was RM12,000, and cheaper than the Junkers 213 piston engine, which was RM35,000 moreover, the jets used lower-skill labor and needed only 375 hours to complete (including manufacture, assembly, and shipping), compared to 1,400 for the BMW 801. It was also using less complicated tooling to produce and as was easier to change and mantain the engine. Finally the fuel, if available, was literally the leftover of the fuel production therefore it was cheaper as well. According to the German ace Stainhoff, I hope I spelled it correctly, one of the biggest drawback of the 262 was the total lack of air breaks (similar to the F-86), to slow down when approaching the target so he could avoid toggling with the engines thus avoiding a possible flame out or worse. I'm sorry for my bad English but it is one of my favorite airplanes! Keep posting!
Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum (FHCAM) in Everett Washington are in the final stages of restoring their original me-262 with original Jumo 004 jet engines. They've reengineered the internals to make them more reliable. Look up their RUclips channel, there's footage of it taxiing. It will be flying very soon with Steve Hinton at the controls.
Because the FW190 is fuckin nice. I saw it a few days ago live. The sound is so nice and seeing it fly is just a awesome feeling.
+MaugriM
What struck me most when seeing one fly close-by was how tiny she is.
Sadly most of the ones still flying have Merlin engines
@@doc.voltold4232 MaugriM list the FW190 Powered by radial engines, BMW 801 in the versions A, F and G; and the V12 Junkers Jumo 213 in the D variant.
A pair of flying examples have russian radial engines.
@@doc.voltold4232 Yeah. The one i heard had a copied Engine by the russians from the end of the war. But until end of the year it gets a original one.
@@Tuning3434 Its funny because everytime i see such planes im more impressed how big they are.
Excellent video!
The essential problem was that the engines were poorly suited to the task of being a fighter-interceptor.
Those *turbojet* engines were only excellent once they got up to speed, but they were absolute _crap_ otherwise.
They took a long, long time to get up to speed, during which time the engines went through a massive amount of fuel, and also the plane was very vulnerable.
And once fuel was low, which didn't take very long, it absolutely _had_ to slow down and land. Then no defensive manouvers were allowed, because fuel would simply run out if the pilot tried to throttle up again, and the plane would just crash anyway.
And that is still ignoring the fact that those specific engines were very unreliable anyway.
You can't judge the overall performance of that plane just on its awesome top speed and its awesome firepower, because it cost far too much fuel to get up to speed, but then it had far too litte fuel to stay awesome for very long before it had to slow down and land or it would just crash.
And one has to add in the fuel consumption of the piston-engined fighters that were needed to overfly the Me262 airstrip to protect them as they took off and slowly got up to speed.
Modern jet fighter-interceptors don't use turbojet engines for exactly those reasons. Instead they use *low-bypass turbofans,* which use a turbojet core enhanced with fan thrust for much greater takeoff and landing performance and fuel efficiency.
An example of an appropriate use for a turbojet engine is the SR71 Blackbird. Its top speed of 3,200 km/hr shows the true strength of the turbojet.
My father was a b24 navigator for the 15th air force. He told me that the fw190 was the plane they really feared. He said that by the time the germans deployed the me262, they didn't have the fuel to fly them. He said they saw more of them on the ground than in the air.
The key reason they could not replace production of BF109s or FW190 was Adolph Hitler. Hitler ordered the development of new weapon systems stopped thinking they could win with existing weapons.
The jet aircraft program was one of the systems affected, it was not completely stopped but was reduced. Such was the reduction that when they kicked it into high gear they had to find the technicians that had been resigned. I heard some of these techs had been fighting on the Russian front.
This meant that the introduction of the 262 was delayed by as much as two years. The British put their jet fighter the Gloster Meteor went operational one month after the 262. This meant by the time the 262 was in production supply lines to many war materials had been cut. Allied bombing had hampered factory production at all levels. It was mentioned that because of lack of alloys the 262 engine had to be careful of exceeding heat limits. This is true and the 262 engines had governors on them to keep this from happening. Allied pilots soon figured out that the 262 could be pounced on when it throttled down for landing approach. After the war captured 262s were evaluated, using German pilots, and it's air frame judged superior while the Rolls Royce engines in the Meteor were judged superior.
Pilots for the 262 had to be the best because training on the 262 was for practical purposes nonexistent. The loss of development time meant no two seat model was developed so the training to fly it was first classroom. Then the new pilot taxed on the runway and an experienced pilot stood on the wing holding onto the canopy telling the trainee how to work the controls. Then the experienced only on piston aircraft trainee took their first solo flight in the new technology.
Every thing about why the 262 could not replace the existing front line piston fighters stems from Hitlers slowing it's development.
The end result was too little too late. Another example of Hitler the little corporal thinking we was a general.
I should add that by the time the 262 and Meteor were in combat the United Stated had a flying jet fighter the P-80 Shooting Star. This plane was not deemed ready for combat and only a few entered the war and only as reconnaissance aircraft. It entered service as fighter after war as the F-80.
There is a thing about Jet engines.
They are quite simple compared to a piston engine. Especially WW2 era. Just think of it. A piston engine would typically need a reductor to connect to the propeller. and other reductors to connect to other parts of the propeller. You needed to produce the physical parts of the engine, which were in all shapes and sizes. Assemble the bloody engine and then syncronise everything so it could work. And not just the engine. You had compressors, coolings and so on.
On a jet engine, especially an old type like the JUMO or NENE or VK-1, things are quite simple: you have one big turbine. This means you have a centrifugal compressor which can be casted in one or a few pieces, much easier compared to the one for a piston engine. You have a few combustion chambers, but you know how to make ignitions and all. And you have the proper turbine behind those combustion chambers. For cooling, you use part of the air from the compressor. Easy peasy. This means you could obtain much more of those jet engines with a less qualified workforce compared to the complicated piston engines in use during WW2.
If you're fortunate to be visiting (or residing in Australia), the Me 262 "Black X" (Wrk No 500200) at the AWM is the only remaining 262 in original condition - including original camo paint!!
Outstanding guys
Looking sharp there!
Might like to see a video about pilots transitioning from the Bf109 or FW190 to the me262.
Agreed. Those early jets were touchy to say the least! Many great piston fighter pilots were lost transitioning to jets. Richard Bong was the USA's top WW2 ace, and he died when he flamed-out during take off in the Lockheed P-80 he was testing.
early... too early... Wait, isn't it time for me to sleep?
*Squints*
Not gonna get any sleep with 20mins left anyway, might as well watch.
With the extensive forests they had, I'm surprised Germany didnt try to build a wooden FW-190. Even Japan developed a wooden Ki-84 Hayate, the Ki-106 with three prototypes built.
Well, there is the He 162.
Also I have never heard that Germany lacked the quantities of aluminium necessary for their aircraft fleet. But maybe you have additional information.
@@AFT_05G
Yes, as I said.
@@3gunslingers Some of the later models like the TA-154 used wood.
they are like the combo of bismark and moltke.
Nice suit and an interesting video. And all done with a German accent. Excellent!
I did think that Bismack and Bernhard were the same person for a little time... 😣
But they sound different
@@dosmastrify Yeah, they have totally different voices. Bernhard is clearly a tenor (i'm a musician, indulge me) and Bismarck is more of a baritone. Also, Bismarck's english is a little better...
But at first, when i hadn't completely memorized the sound of their respective voices, i briefly thought they were the same person in two different RUclips channels. I'm a dunce
They hadn't really worked out the materials to make reliable turbine blades. They were multicrystiline steel blades, and due to the heat and stress, they'd "creep" and stretch past desing limits in about 25 hours. Today we use single crystal nickel blades
Without rocket-assist the Me262 required over 1klm m of concrete runway to takeoff. It's generally accepted it took 12 weeks to change a factories production from one model to a completely new design. That's 3 months (1/4 year) of zero production from that facility.
Very nice suit.
If Jumo engine production was so high, why was the need for high temperature tolerant materials considered a limiting factor? Those two statement seem incongruent.
Seems like there was plenty of materials for Jumo production. Did I miss something?
So are we just gonna ignore the fact that he looks like a movie star in this suit? Although a little bit like a movie villain as well
he looks like a magician
Your words are wisdom, if you hadn't mentioned it, I wouldn't have known that wings and engines were essential for planes :p
Great video, had to look twice to see it wasn't Bismark lol I really like your suit! *edit* there is Bismark! I knew it!
Nice Suit Mister :D
The biggest handicap for early jet operations was the lack of range. The only reason the 262 saw extensive combat was that the air war took place over Germany. Even so, the 262 only had a few minutes of combat capability before they had to break off the fight and return to base where they had to run the gauntlet of allied fighters to get safely on the ground. Contrary to conventional wisdom the UK actually had the technical edge in jet engines -- you could fly a Meteor safely over 30k' -- but by 1943 no allied jet fighter design could make a useful contribution to the war.
From a technical point of view the 262 had too many technical problems, particularly with the powerplant, to really be considered an operational fighter until 1945. The period from the summer of 1944 until late winter 1945 should be considered and operational test and evaluation under combat conditions
i think what most people dont understand is that these early jets werent a big game changer, sure they were faster in top speed, but really not by much. And MUCH slower and more sluggish in a dogfight. It's only when afterburners became common where jets really reigned supreme.
The little corporal trying to make the ME 262 a ground attack aircraft instead of interceptor played a role in the trainwreck of its monilazation.
As someone with a background in engineering and business analysis rather than history or aviation when you started going into detail about how the parts were made in an indeterminate number of small workshops and then shipped across a road network that was probably being bombed to shit I count myself lucky I was never given the job of making that work. It's easy enough for parts to get lost between one side of a building and the other without having to factor enemy action into your stock control process.
this was the only way to do it though, it meant every workshop was independent and you couldn't bomb the "essential part with no stock left" factory, and grind down the whole production line to a halt.
Thanks!
Hi. Sehr gutes Video. Eine allgemein bekannte Sachlage aberwieder mal wunderbar zusammengefasst. Übrigens, nur am Rande erwähnt: es heißt "rare metals" oder "precious metals"
Instantly switching from something old and obsolete like the 109 to cutting-edge new stuff like the 262 is something that ONLY happens in videogames: *UNREALISTIC*
But even in strategy games you have to let the (apparently) obsolete trash that's condemned to be completely phased out into non-existence have some borrowed time to hold the front long enough for the new stuff to be fully proven and made available in sufficient numbers.
It's almost the same thing with captured equipment: If you don't have enough of your homemade goods for the troops to use, then you either wait or make do with the foreign stuff you took from the enemy.
On the power vs man hour issue, its an interesting problem of very advanced piston engines vs very early jet engines. jet engines are much more complicated then piston engines today but in ww2 jet engines were not as complicated as the piston engines they were building
Hoi4 experience of changing equipment production proved this point
In the book "A Higher Calling", the German Luftwaffe Officer who was second in command of the Fighter Wing states the engine life was about 10 hours, never knew when the engine would fail, inferior metal used on the blades so the engines had to be handled like eggs -- had to keep a constant speed -- , difficult to find a "qualifed" repair shop ---- sometimes engines sent to a local auto repair shop(, and equipment may have been made by slave labor and concentration camp victims..... not stated in this book, but elsewhere in the literature.)
I'm still convinced you're the same person.
The most challenging technological leap was during the First World War when the aircraft that was invented 10 years earlier would now be used in combat without existing logistics and without trained pilots. They chose to quickly train cavalrymen because they had good physique to be able to meet the challenge of maneuvering an aircraft and fight in the air. Effective weapons must be chosen and above all effective tactics and best practice taught by fellow pilots with just a couple of months of experience more than their pupils. All in an environment that was completely unknown as a battle field 15 years earlier, now that’s quite astonishing to say the least.
Its a really cool plane though, and a marvel of engineering considering the constraints they were under.
They really should have focused on the FW-190 machines, instead. That long-span/high-altitude, bomber engine, model they fielded at the end there promised to be one kickass performer.
The argument that "if only Germany had produced more Me-262" falls flat on its face...
Kinda like Luftwaffe, eh?
Over 33,000 produced,....BF 109 was very small,.....and capable even in 1945! Hitler also wanted the 262 to be a bomber. Totally different aircraft,fuel was also in short supply. A lot of,.......would of,...could of,........should of,.....in WWII! Nice video!
I think you meant the engine flamed out and need to be restarted burned out would mean engine failure,melting, and may chunks of metal in the exhaust.
Sir, do you plan a video on Battle of Bir Hakeim? Was it really necessary for Rommel to attack this point southwest of Tobruk or might he have better avoided it?
The allies were lucky the me-262 did not go into service in the summer of 1943, instead of 1944.
Didn't know Me-262s were such chat engines ;-)
Turbines were actually quite common and well known since the 1890s - in fact, all those Dreadnoughts in WW1 were powered by turbines. But those were steam turbines, not gas turbines.
I know these early jet engines weren’t amazing but I’ve never seen a video talking about the mentors engines, was it on par to what the problems the me262 engines were dealing with?
Frost; No. The British had better access to critical alloys and the Meteor engines had much longer service life.
When newer versions of the 109 came out with a new engine in the beggining it had a bad reputation amongst pilots and they wanted to keep the old one they knew, was more fiable, this happenned pretty much on each model, a new thing always has problems but you then figure them out an fix them, that's also what happenned to Tigers and Panthers, and unfortunately this issue cost the life of one of the greatest german aces Hans-Joachim Marseille which engine died and due to the smoke produced and the plane spinning he hit the tail of his plane when he tried to jump out, he died late 1942 with 158 victories against only allied pilots (brits and americans), without this incident he probably could have been the greatest ace of the war, greater than Hartmann and his 352 victories but acquired later and only against soviets.
The British went for a much simpler, lighter and reliable design of engine at the time (centrifugal flow), they were working on the same type as powered the 262 (axial flow) but knew it would take longer to perfect. Ultimately it was a better type but the technology was not mature enough at the time.
"the last of the old is better than the first of the new"
-as was noted by the forgotten weapons interview with tony neophytou, of neostead fame (among others)
But the Russians adapted a piston engine fighter to a jet fighter in a few months. The Mig-9 worked. It just had a bad habit of lighting itself on fire.
Modern fighter pilots use the saying of Flame Out, instead of the saying Burn Out. Which made me think of being shot down.
I wonder what happened to those Me 262 after the war? Some ex-German tanks and planes were used for at least a couple of years by other countries, until the run out of spares. I guess the most well known were Panter tanks in French service and Me 109 variant with underpowered Czekoslovakian engines used by Israel. Small arms were used for decades by various forces, some of them still surface in conflicts in Near East.
Me 262 by the end of the war was still a pinnacle of technology. So, what happened to them? Were they scrapped, because of logistic problems, or did they quickly became obsolete?
A lot of the engines were used in post-war research on jet technology, early Soviet jet fighters like the MiG-9 and the Yak-15 were powered by captured and copied German engines this remained until the Soviets were able to acquire the Rolls Royce Nene and Derwent engines.
I like the way he‘s dressed.
You guys failed to concentrate and even mention one major factor pilots transitioning from a single engine piston, to a jet twin. Going from a single piston engine to a multi piston engine requires a lot of learning and training as the control is different. Let alone going from a single piston to a multi jet... just thinking about it in today’s terms it’s like jumping from a Cessna trainer into a B2 bomber without proper training and experience. I doubt many crewmen where able to exploit the benefits of the 262 under those conditions
262's had positive kill death ratios and made a few ace pilots, so I think it wasn't that great of an issue
@@iota515 the Aces were already Aces for the most part. The 262 had more operational losses than combat losses
@@johnshepherd8687 Shephaaaaaaaaard
I want that beard and that suit,thanks.
Forget 262 ... why not Do-335 ?? Do-335 also could be better counter of mustangs
for interception yeah
air superiority? nah
I like the fw190 and if i have to go with a 109 ill go with the K model. The 262 is good to but only a small few was made
Additionally the 262 was incapable of defending it's own airfields against allied Piston engined fighters.
Which would've meant that an all 262 force might've been untouchable at speed and in the attack but sitting ducks over their own airfields.
Which is why an all 262 or all Jet force wouldn't have worked even in the tactical level alone.
Couple that with the Training and logistical Matters mentioned Here and it should be pretty appearant why......
That's really a symptom of Germany losing air superiority far before the 262 entered service in any real number. If the allied air forces didn't have free range over virtually all of Europe, the need to guard take off and landing would be far less of a problem.
@@Waty8413 Less of a problem, but still a considerable problem. QRA doesn't really work if an aircraft... can't. As a whole the 262 wasn't really suited to the interceptor role, more of a heavy fighter if anything. Which made it entirely unsuitable for an overall fighter replacement.
I wonder why asbestos hose was removed in the museum? It really messes up the understanding the temperatures.
To be honest, i didn't think this had to be answered, like who doesn't know that switching from somethink to a more complicated other produkt is difficult, like imagine having a panzer I factory and switching your production to the panzer VIII "maus". It ain't gonna work
A thought about the engine life time:
The Me262 had the fuel capacity for a flight of about 1 to 1.5 hours. With a service life of 25h per Jumo this means about 20 sorties per engine. In the late stage of the war many pilots and air frames didn't even survive that many sorties. So in my opinion the short life span of the Jumo004 was not a hamper at all.
12 sorties, the 262 had two engines so MTBF of an engine of 25 hours makes MTBF of 12.5 hours for the aircraft.
@@andrewallen9993
How did you get to this number?
Each engine had a _total service life_ of 25h, not a MTBF.
@@3gunslingers sevice life is MTBF. After failure if recoverable the engine is rebuilt. They didn't do a mandatory engine swap at 25 hours it's just that they lasted or had an average lifespan of 25 hours.
@@andrewallen9993
Interesting. Do you have any sources for this topic?
it must have been scary to fly, pull back on the throttle and it might flame out, speed up the engine might blow, flying controls jittery, real joy to fly. were there any air restarts, I think not.
Never mind the plane. How snappy is that suit?
Germany was trying to get a level 3 fighter but only had a research bonus for heavy fighters and jets.
In comparison to the Luftwaffe during WW2 the USAAF partially shifted from the B-17/B-24’s too the B-29 series. Despite all the resources of the USA the production and combat fielding of the new heavy bomber was an ordeal. The Luftwaffe hadn’t the resources or the advantage of not being bombed night and day. The Me-262 was the most advanced fighter of WW2 but it probably didn’t delay german defeat by even a day.
If they'd not spent any time on the 262 they'd prob have prolonged the war
@Call Me Ishmael Well of course if the US hadn't obsessed with building armored/armed aircraft with a small sideline in bombing that would not have been such an issue.
@Call Me Ishmael Actually the analysis during the war was that this was the wrong call. ie The loss of range/speed and bombload - coupled with the effective loss of bomb accuracy exceeded any advantages gained. This was only made worse by actually the cost/loss rate in men/materials of upgunning bombers
@Call Me Ishmael Due to the tight defensive formation they few they hobbled their own bombing accuracy.
@Call Me Ishmael All of the evidence (bombing analysis) suggest that except for carpet bombing the tight defensive formation compromised the aim.
FYI on terminology: You used the term "burn out" for a jet engine shutting down. The US terminology is "flame out". I don't know what it is in other nations.