One of the best interviews I've seen on BATGAP. Thanks Rick for so persistently pushing forward the contemporary scientific-materialistic world-view allowing Joel to "attack" that view from different directions, and he did that with such lucidity, such a clarity! Thoroughly enjoyed the conversation.
Wow, never seen awakening so clearly and stably expressed in human-form as this. He (Joel) is like a Lion, presesnt there, trying to express meaning in words... Always imperfect... Very useful to me :)
Thank you Rick and thank you Joel. I would love to hear more interview with Joel. This interview was one of the riches interviews ever. I would like to hear more between you. Rick could you continue with Joel again really soon. This was brilliant for it was alive, vibrant, and going some where. It was from my point of view minds that were really connecting and unraveling something of value. You both were on the cutting edge. This is when interviewing comes alive rather than informational.MORE MORE MORE. Please and thank you.
Thank you Rick for this interview. I didn't know Joel Morwood, he is expressing so natural and clear The Buddha teachings.... not easy for an advaita follower (like you) to accept.... He knows what he talks. Thank you again! PS. I would be interested to hear Joel talking about emptiness, impermanence, dependent origination, Maha, suchness.....
Ooooo- this was so good ! Joel really cuts right through, doesn't he ?! I agree with Srinivasan G and Kwistenbiebel200 - this is one of BATGAP's best interviews !! thanks, Rick. Hope you can follow up with a second interview in the "future" !
I loved this. Love what you do Rick, BatGap has become my favorite way of unwinding and feeding my heart and soul at the same time! I have to say though that it gets frustrating to hear you keep repeating what you believe, when someone is giving a glimpse into what feels so hard to grasp that words can't touch it. And yet you can feel the Greater Truth when someone is able to live the questions...the big bang theory, gravity ...are we willing to inquire...is this True, can we absolutely know that it is True? At a certain level of consciousness, we can see that these are stories just like the rest, but on a relative level they work for US. Not everyone and maybe we are not more evolved or better than a fundamentalist with very black and white thinking? Wow. Love this. I loved being shaken a wee bit by the thought that this is pure arrogance. I am a psychotherapist and had just shared Ken Wilbur's ideas w/a client who is struggling w/judgmental, critical parents. I gave the line about where their Spiritual evolutionary process may be at a more Primitive less evolved level. Ouch. I'm cringing as I do see the arrogance now. Rick, you are familiar with the point of discussion though right...like if a tree falls with no one to hear it, did it really fall? If everything originates from Consciousness then nothing exists outside of our dream, projection, stories..except on a relative level, whatever that is! Ha, love these points of inquiry so much!.
+katie cunningham I don't think the essential oneness of things and the fact that consciousness is "enlightened" in and of itself negates levels, hierarchies, levels of mental, emotional, spiritual social maturity on relative levels. I don't think it's arrogant to say an elephant is more intelligent than a tadpole. Here's something somewhat relevant to all this that I wrote recently, that you might enjoy: www.scienceandnonduality.com/if-everything-is-consciousness-is-everything-conscious/
A small but important correction: Simone Weil was not a Christian mystic but was a French Jewess, whose brother was a renowned mathematician. She was raised agnostic, but living in France, she seems to have adopted that religion; she had high regard for many religions, including Hinduism, and she appreciated the energy of black church gospel. She never completed her conversion to Catholicism due to her reservations on this matter. She seems to have accepted Yeshu as her savior, even dying at 33, which is also his reputed death age. One would do well to actually read her, particularly Le Pesanteur et la Grace. The most salient point that sticks out in this interview seems to be whether there is an ultimate reality and if it can be known. I did not hear this interview in one sitting but I think Rick argued that there is an ultimate reality and Joel argued that there isn't? Kant said there is Being but the mind cannot know it. Bradley then questioned that, saying that if Being cannot be known, then how do we know it exists in the first place? Why a complete God would want to create an apparent world, full of suffering as well as joy, remains inchoate. As much as it may be illusory in some sense, it is little consolation to those suffering. Being God's entertainment is not a very high place in the scheme of things, after all, if that is what we come to. The joke is on us; that hardly seems to be worthy of anything I would call God. And, if God is doing everything, that leaves little role for free will, so the religious reason for our existence would be lost in that case, if one wished to argue that this world is a testing ground of our ethics under fire. There clearly seems no way to answer what we are all doing here, disturbingly. No matter what you believe, there is always that pesky left-over, that jigsaw piece that just won't fit.
+jazzsnare On your small point, I was under the imperssion that Weil was Christian. In Wokipedia it says: ' In her Spiritual Autobiography however, Weil records that she always had a Christian outlook, taking to heart from her earliest childhood the idea of loving one's neighbour. Weil became attracted to the Christian faith beginning in 1935, the first of three pivotal experiences for her being when she was moved by the beauty of villagers singing hymns during an outdoor service that she stumbled across during a holiday to Portugal' On your wondering about their views re ultimate reality, ...I think you have to confused:... Joel is IN the ultimate reality, that's what he is embodying all along! I agree with you re 'useless suffering', to be honest...
+Julian Bates There is nothing in what you wrote that contradicts me. She was born a Jewess; she identified with the prevailing Christianity of France however. She was not given very much, if any, background in her native religion, raised by non-practicing parents.
Excellent interview! Some good analogies there too. A common mistake we make is to compare the manifested (dual/relative) world, e.g. gravity, with the Unmanifest.
A wonderful conversation! Now I know that Quantum state and cockroaches are Buddha nature, infinite possibilities and the collapse into multiplicity and diversity...
Hi Rick, I want to say thank you for all the work you do. I love your interviews. In this interview, your conversation about gravity with Joel seems to bring up the question about whether or not there is an objective reality that exists beyond perception. A very interesting book on this exact topic is 'Refuting the External World' by Goran Backlund. I found the book to be insightful and thought provoking...and only 42 pages. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it...and maybe even see an interview with Goran. Thanks, Fran
I always get a kick out of that age old "snake/ rope" distinction. It's just a simple recognition of the appearance of how real illusion is, the grip it has on one until one "comes to one's senses" and see how the person gets tricked by his or her own thought based misperceptions.
What about the apparent "others" who "experienced" it differently? Should they discard what they experienced first-hand, consider their first-hand experience all wrong and trust "apparent" "Bob Reed" to be the Ultimate Final True Knower of all things (and not things)?
Defining enlightenment? Why don’t we start with something much simpler? Can you please define happiness? Can you do it accurately? Can you measure it externally? Can you please define joy? Can you please define love? Can you please define compassion? Can you please define peace?
*A 1.5 on a -3.0 to +3.0 scale* Good one, but it used to be (way back) mostly about exploring the experience of the awakened. These days there tends to be an alibi 10 minutes of that, and then there is almost 2 hours of armchair attempts at philosophizing.
"How to get liberated?"... ...is... ...a wrong question. Ask... ..."what binds me right in this moment?"... ...that is the right question. The wish to get liberated in the "future" is already based on a wrong "belief" and because of that it can't be possibly fulfilled. Ask where is the "future" right in this moment. Ask where is “time” right in this moment. Ask who creates “time” and “future” right at this moment and how it gets created. Can the future exist without time? Can the time exist without the thinking?
+advaitanr2 Until you clearly define what you mean by the word "enlightenment"... ...talking about it might not be very useful... Remember that you need to define only what you mean by this word, whether others agree with that definition or not doesn't matter that much.
What is the meaning of multiple awakenings? ...that one has fallen asleep again? What is the meaning of levels, layers, travel and progress? ...that on is still dreaming? Why does it mean that one is dreaming? ...do levels, layers and journey and progress exist without... ...thoughts?
Having a backbone is the mother of the back-pain. No backbone, no back-pain and no need to get rid of it. Having a car is the mother of the engine problems. No car, no need to repair its engine. The problem of thinking is the mother of the problem of enlightenment. No thinking… ...no need to get enlightened.
HI Rick, I didn't watch this one yet but I have watched many past interviews. Im a big fan of what you do. You do a great job, However.... There are two interviews I want to mention. One where the woman had a vivid detailed past life memory being a disciple of Buddha, the other woman had one detailed memory where she was crucified next to Jesus on the cross. You didn't ask her to describe what they looked like. I realized its not that important but damn weren't you even a little curious???
Ego versus Ahamkara: As far as I know the Indian languages like Hindi and Sanskrit have no word that means exactly what the word 'ego' seems to mean... I think when Buddha and early Buddhist teachers or early Advaita teacher were teaching... ...they were not teaching regardig 'ego' as this word is used in the English language currently... Yes, there is word 'ahamkara' in Sanskrit and In Hindi... ...but, Ahmakra doesn't denote same thing that the word 'ego' does... In fact, in the common usage, the word Ahamkra is closer to the word 'pride' than it is to the word 'ego'... Ahamkra is related to 'pride', 'prestige', 'self respect', 'self image', 'the feeling of self worth'... ...but, not related to the animal survival instinct... Ahamkara is more related... ...to how one 'wants to be seen' and 'known' in the society... ...it is similar to 'external image', the 'mask' one wants to show to others...
What is Reality? ============ From my perspective... From the perspective of Consciousness... ...Without memory, thoughts and senses... ....what exists? ...Without consciousness... ...what exists? Besides my perspective, besides the consciousness perspective... ...which other perspective... ...I truly, directly know?
The idea that the "reality" is all-knowing entity that already know everything (in advance) is the idea of some humans. This idea is not supported by the present evidence. I see reality more as a self-learning, self-evolving, intelligent, conscious process that is learning and evolving. It makes errors and mistakes (just as we "the reality" do), it learns (just as we "the reality" do), it adopts, adapts and evolves (just as we "the reality" do). It took this process billions of years just to reach where it is today. No, (like us "the reality") it doesn't know everything in advance. As it moves, by that movement, the outcome gets created, it observes, learns, adapts, changes course and keep doing the same thing (just as we "the reality" do). We being "the reality" ourselves... ...the reality works very similar to how we do... ...learn, educate, adapt... ...evolve.
+James van der Hoorn There is something that changes as one eats food and exercises. You can call it the body. There is something that change with the time (age), you can see that change in the mirror. Others can see that change too. There is something that changes with the twenty years of schooling and with the five years of training. There is something that learns to drive, swim, ski, dance, sing, play piano or to program. There is something that learns English, French, Spanish, Sanskrit. Is that the body - maybe Is that the brain - maybe I am using the word reality to include all of that.
If “enlightenment” is so incredibly blissful and so “permanent”... ...why do many mediators, “getters”, “gurus” and famous “enlightened beings” are found running after women, sex, watches, jewellery, cars, clothes, wine and money?
Then, maybe, until the point where all the conditioning has burned up and living one completely free, the full enlightenment or nirvana hasn't happened?
Can a cockroach get enlightened? Enlightenment is the loss of the ego, the ego being the false idea of self. Does a Cockroach has ego? If not, a Cockroach has no reason to get enlightened? Is there any “un enlightenment” without ego?
Where is ...the “un enlightenment”... when you are not thinking? Where is the “false identification” when you are not thinking? Where is the “ego” when you are not thinking?
Enlightenment is the loss of the “personhood”. Enlightenment is end of belief in being a “person”. Enlightenment is the end of the belief in being a separate, independent person with free will and choice. Enlightenment is the end of identification with being a character in one’s own thinking. Does a Cockroach think? Does a Cockroach thinks that it is character in its own thought?If a Cockroach doesn’t think it has no false identification and it has no need and no reason to get enlightened.
Some problems are closely linked to thinking. Without thinking these problems don’t exist and thus the need to resolve them too doesn’t arise. Does a cockroach plan? Does a Cockroach get worried, anxious and stressed? Does a Cockroach get depressed?
Where is the need of enlightenment for the one who has no concept of the past or the future. Where is the need of enlightenment for the one who doesn't think of the past or the future. Where is the need of enlightenment for the one who doesn't think.
Learning to drive, learning to ski, learning to bike... ...includes... ...learning to stop. Learning to think correctly... ...includes... ...learning... ...to relax and to give thinking a rest i.e. to 'not think'... ...when thinking is not necessary.
Seeing Angels - depending on one's cultural background, education, experience and belief - seeing Angels can either be sigh of great accomplishment or a really serious mental delusion or a flat lie or fabrication.
Enlightenment is simply a problem caused by thinking. Enlightenment is learning to think correctly. Does an unconscious human body need to get enlightenment? Does a woman absorbed in the deep dreamless sleep need to get enlightened?
+advaitanr2 What is the meaning of running well or running correctly? In my view, it means to run efficiently, optimally (based on your capacity) yet without over-exerting yourself and without hurting or injuring yourself. Who is the judge? The runner is the judge. The runner might get other experts involved if he/she injures himself/herself and needs help. What is thinking correctly? Thinking efficiently and optimally (based on your capacity) but without causing yourself mental-pain, suffering and confusion. Who is the judge? The thinker is. Others are needed to help only when the thinker finds himself/herself in pain and seeks help.
The second issue that I see is that a human being attempting to live an enlightened life ( i.e. a life completely free of dukha or suffering ) is like a grasshopper trying to fly. A grasshopper can certainly leap into the air and defy gravity for some time. However, a grasshopper is not really a falcon. It can neither fathom the height that a falcon can nor can it stay airborn that long. For the falcon, the flight is effortless and natural. The grasshopper is quite limited in that regard. A human being is ultimately bound by the capacity of its body and the brain and its evolution, it can’t truly leap beyond what the body-brain could sustain. Yet once it gets the taste of ...“being airborne”... ...it is hard to not do it again and again.
+Kwistenbiebel200 Learning to drive includes learning how to stop. Learning to bike includes learning how to stop. Learning to ski includes learning how to stop. Once I know how to stop thinking, resolving the problems caused by thinking becomes easier. The intelligence, the consciousness that remains and operates in the absence of thinking… ...gets space to operate freely once the thinking has subsided. One who needs to drive on the busy streets of metros, need to learn how to move and also how to stop. One who lives a modern life in a modern society, needs to learn to solve problems by thinking and also to relax and stop thinking. For the modern human living in the modern world… ...it is not enough to just learn how to stop thinking, how to relax or how to meditate. Many of us are “knowledge workers” in the “knowledge economy” and pretty much all this knowledge is thoughts. Many modern humans spend twenty years in school just repeating and remembering “information” (thoughts) and different ways of thinking (math, science, philosophy, psychology). After learning for twenty years, many spend most of the later life, applying that learned thought (information) 6-10 hours a day for “work” and 2-3 hours more for mortgage, kids homework, savings, investments, bills, schedule, “vacation planning” and other things. Even our entertainment includes “reading”, “writing” or watching movies, TV or news - all of which are “thought based”. This is the reality of the modern man living in the modern society and therefore, I think learning to “think correctly” is essential - just learning to “not think” is not enough.
+advaitanr2 How will you describe that tornado? I think that tornado is caused when the thinking/reasoning/imagining mind comes face to face with that silence - I think that point the mind or the consciousness has already split into two - the complete silence and the "I". That is the moment of "singularity" and then comes the "explosion" - the Big Bang.
For lucid dreaming: www.upaya.org/2010/03/lucid-dreaming-and-dream-yoga-part-1-of-13/ this is about lucid dreaming very detailed info for anyone that's interested. They ask an email but u can always give one that u dont use a lot if u have problems giving email adresses. It's Alan wallace that teaches.
Definitions ======== I will describe what I mean. Thought: a piece of internal verbal information. Speech: a piece of external verbal or written information. Information: a representation of a thing in language Language: a set of symbols to represent information. Belief: an unverified information assumed to be true. Fact: an information verified to be true. Compulsion: the sensation in the body that represents body’s demand/need to do something. This is similar to hunger, thirst. This is similar to addiction of smoking. Other habits too work the same way - be it the compulsion to check facebook, twitter, google, stock market, yahoo groups, imessage or phone or be it the compulsion to have sex, fight or argument. Almost every action builds a habit. Almost every habit works via compulsion. Anger: compulsion to attack. Fear: compulsion to run and if running is not possible then to shrink and hide. Lust: compulsion to have sex with someone in particular. Love: a spontaneous happiness on seeing, thinking or imagining someone or something. Peace: no compulsion to run away or to attack or to change or to move away - at home with the present situation. Enlightenment: reaching the very core. Reaching a point that I can’t go beyond and I can no longer ask any question, I can no longer imagine any other reality, any other God or any other level or destination. Realization: knowing my innermost core beyond which I can’t see, imagine, know or ask anything. Awakening: falling away of the feeling of being someone. Ignorance: the belief of being someone. Truth: an information verified on all levels - senses (sight, touch, smell, sound…), reasoning and awareness and in all states - sleep, wakefulness, dream. Relative truth: an information verified at the level of senses and reasoning but only in one state - wakefulness.
Enlightenment: the state in which there is no one… …(else)... ...left to explain, answer or own anything. The state in which the power to imagine anyone or anything… …(else)... ...ceases. The dark night of soul: the spontaneous fear (and the resultant self-created hallucination) felt on discovering that there is no one else… …(left)... and, there is no other possibility. Advaita: the systematic belief system teaching that there is no one else and there is no other possibility.
Feeling: vibrational and hormonal (chemical) state state of the body. Reality: present experience including current thoughts, feelings and information. Desire: the pull towards another imagined possibility. Discontent: the feeling of lack. Feeling of lack: the thought that something is missing accompanied by the corresponding feeling in the body. Anxiety: the fear of an imagined possibility.
Hope: belief that the desired state will happen. Despair: belief that the feeling of lack will remain because the desired state will not happen. Suffering: persistent fear, anger, discontent, despair, lust without release. Suffering: painful chemical (hormonal) feeling in the body without any known physical cause. painful chemical (hormonal) feeling in the body that occurs in response to thoughts. Stillness: a stable effortless state of the body. The state in which body seems to use and lose least amount of energy and spend least amount of effort. Happiness: the state of the body in which body appears to generate energy in place of using or losing it. The state of the body in which body appears to generate energy accompanied by cool, comfortable sensation. Bliss: an unstable, excited state in which body appears to generate a lot of energy without any painful sensation. An unstable, excited state in which body appears to generate a lot of energy accompanied by a cool sensation. Rage: the state of the body in which body appears to generate a lot energy accompanied by a hot and painful sensation.
Soul: Ignorance multiplied by Ignorance. The dream within the dream. Reincarnation: Ignorance multiplied by Ignorance multiplied by Ignorance. The dream within the dream within the dream. Heaven: Ignorance glorified.
The Good News: in spite of all the dreams, in spite of all the experiences, in spite of identifying with all imagined dream characters… ...the consciousness remains consciousness. The Bad News: in spite of all the dreams, in spite of all the experiences, in spite of identifying with all imagined dream characters… ...the consciousness remains consciousness. Shiva: the state of consciousness in which entire experience (all that is sensed, felt, thought, imagined, known, reasoned…) is known to be the part of the self and thus is loved as the part of the self. The state of consciousness which is the experience is loved completely as one whole. The state of consciousness which is the experience is loved completely as one whole without needing to divide it into good or bad, desired and feared. Krishna: the state of consciousness in which all experiences are experienced fully and completely with love yet without forgetting the innermost core of “self-less-ness”. The state of consciousness in which all experiences are experienced fully and completely with love as if one was willingly chosen to have them. The state of consciousness in which each experience is fully desired, welcomed and loved.
How is the discovery of spirituality like? It is like looking at the blue sky from earth and then travelling to find it… ...only to discover that there is no such thing as the sky… ( no matter how real it looks from the earth during the daylight.) What happens when this discovery is made? I guess disillusionment can result. Terror too can result. Disbelief too can result. What happens if disillusionment, terror or disbelief occurs? I guess one returns to the earth and looks at the blue sky again and says… ...yes, there is a sky and it is blue and it is glorious. One hears and repeats the stories of the sky. i.e. …….one dreams again.
What was your first feeling when you woke up to the fact that you were awake? Extreme terror What is your feeling now when you remember it? Extreme terror Who is Buddha? One is who is at peace with the sunyata (self-less-ness). Are you a Buddha? No. I am afraid of falling into that state again. I am afraid of getting frozen into that state. What does the sunyata lack? It lacks the other. Who is the other? Imagination How does one come out of Sunyata? Throught imagination. Imagination is the creation. What is the cause of creation? In my case, it has been fear of facing the (my) reality. Why the fear? I found it too intense and too incomprehensible. What about others like Ramana, Buddha… ? I guess they were either more courageous or more desperate or both.
What is teaching true spirituality like? It is like telling people that there is no such thing as sky. What do people really want? A gloriously, beautiful, perfect sky. What did Buddha say instead?It seems he said… ...there is a way to dream better… ...there is way to reduce or eliminate dukkha (sorrowful thoughts).
Do you want to experience it again? No Do you wish others to experience it? No - only to those who are as miserable, depressed, hopeless, anxious or afraid as supposedly Buddha, Ramana, Tolle, Katie were. For those who are relatively stable, content and happy… ...I think dream is much better. What does it lack? The other. The relationship. The experience. The change. The diversity. What is the purpose of creation then? I guess it might be - the other, the relationship, the experience, the change, the diversity.
Why did awakening happen to you? I guess I became OK with everything and thus, I dropped all effort. Why does the effort block awakening? It takes effort to think. It takes effort to keep imagining. It takes effort to keep repeating lies. The core reality needs no effort to be what it always already is.
Why do I always think? Because memory is built by repeating. Memory are the repeated thoughts. There are so many thing that you need to remember - your name, gender, race, relationships, bank account number, phone number, address, bank balance, social security number, you wife’s birthday, anniversary date, her hairdresser’s phone number, your prescription, your mother’s maiden name… You are afraid that if don’t keep repeating them… ...you will forget… What is the reality of it? My experience says that… ...if you don’t keep repeating them… ...you will indeed forget them.
Dear Rick. Instead of bring up ISIS and cutting off heads in every 2nd show as an example of evil (its getting boring) how about bringing up the Cheney's Bush's etc. who started the whole problem by invading the Middle East for profit? I realize that since you get all your info on this from CNN (a mouthpiece for U.S. Imperialism) this will be difficult for you to do. The U.S. forces do not cut off heads. No they use massive weapons which blow bodies to smithereens beyond recognition and at times (Fallujah ) used depleted uranium resulting in terrible health consequences to human lives. It is disrespectful to think that all your listeners share you U.S. Imperialistic outlook. In 2002 I remember spending the night in a vigil which was a kind of mass prayer begging the U.S. not to invade. I KNEW that it would lead to no good whatsoever. ISIS is simply a consequence of this evil invasion. The people who supported this live all around you and it is THEY rather than ISIS that you should be focusing on as an example of evil. You said "I have not problem with bombing ISIS". Well I have a problem with bombing anyone. But if I had to choose I would choose bombing the likes of the Cheneys and the Bushes who engineered the wars. Switch off CNN and meditate instead. Every moment you watch CNN is another moment you have wasted in your quest for enlightenment as CNN is simply a programming device for U.S. imperialism. I watched the movie "Fair Game" starring Sean Penn and Naomi Watts which I recommend as an example of what really is evil.
+Kwistenbiebel200 He said this in an earlier interview with a woman. I can try to find it if you wish. But I am not interested in finding damning evidence. I am interested in us moving collectively to a position of mutual respect for our fellows instead of groupist sense of superiority. Joel was dead right when he called out Wilber's arrogance in thinking of himself as being so highly "evolved". This was exactly the mentality of colonialism both on the part of European colonialism and Japanese. Wilber btw has never spoken out against the so-called war on terror. Also it should be noted that in his book "Integral Spirituality" he never even mentions Islam a religion which has somewhat 1 billion followers amounting to a 1/6 of the human population. Though I have no evidence for this I am somewhat convinced that Wilber's whole color scheme (red level, green level, indigo etc.denoting levels of spiritual maturity) is born out of a need to find some kind of code to damn Islam. Green level people (code word for bleeding heart liberals) are those that don't see the need to obliterate the likes of Islam from the face of the earth and need to wake up to joining Wilber and his enlightened friends at the Intergral institute so they give moral support to the troops. May it be noted that Wilber was unhappy when Obama didn't bomb Syria. Tony Blair and the Clintons are examples of supporters of Wilber's elitist "philosophy".
+David Watermeyer The Cheney's Bush's etc. did not start "the whole problem". The roots of the whole problem lie much earlier and deeper. The dead-end ideology of Islamism for instance, springing from resentment and an inferiority complex, is one of those roots. The prophet Muhammad himself is an even deeper root, if the problem we're talking about is indeed the miserable state of the Arab world. This is not to condone Bush cum suis btw, whom I do feel are war criminals, guilty of mass murder.
+James van der Hoorn Hi James. For me its not a question of laying blame or identifying with who exactly started the problem. Its rather about how we move forward. Each one of us is real. Each one of us is unique has red blood flowing through our veins and feels fear and pain. Though we associate with groups each is still a unique individual. My concern is how easily we condemn whole groups of people. Having been brought up in apartheid South Africa and like 95% of whites who saw no problem with this (well until I came to my senses when I was 19 years old) I saw how easily this takes place. My thesis is that Americans kind of grow up in a similar way, thinking of themselves as being superior to people from other nations. This is why for the most part they don't really concern themselves with the horrors of the way they (most anyway) endorsed the recent invasions in the Mid East. There is hardly any contrition for this and at the drop of the hat despite all that has happened they would be fully behind a war on Iran. Rick who tunes in to CNN daily would have no problem with this and its completely and utterly insane and barbaric. He goes on an on about how barbaric it is to cut peoples heads of with swords - and yes it is. But it is no less barbaric to blow people up using advanced weapons just to lay one's hands on territory and resources and lie that its to spread democracy. That would be what the war on Iran would be for. To get their territory and resources.
+Kwistenbiebel200 Agreed. The only difference between Sam Harris and the neocons is level of honestly. The neocons proudly call themselves such while Sam Harris doesn't. When one reads through comments written by Sam Harris's followers one would think one was in the midst of some white supremacist KKK like group. And Rick is disappointed that he hasn't been able to get him on his show! Poor Rick and lucky batgap listeners for being spared listening to one of the most pathologically arrogant, self-loving, and self-righteous people walking this planet today. And Harris pretends he understands Buddhism better than the Buddhists! If it wasn't so serious it would be comic.
+David Watermeyer I feel you miss the Essence of the talk(never mind Rick,) and merely want to vent your political p-o-v. I feel more wisdom/sanity and space in one sentence of what Rick said compared to this reactionary-emptiness to be frank.
When a human is able to clearly see that... ..."Gautama" is "something" I am aware of... ...and, not something I am... ...no matter how it "appears" from the outside... ...that I AM... ...that Awareness... That Presence... ...can be called Buddha. Please notice that it is "something" and not "someone"... ...someone is just a convenient lie... ....it is like calling an computer "Alice" or a hurricane "sandy"...
Rick is to spirituality what pee wee herman is to theater. He keeps the conversation at an almost childish level and refuses to take it deeper than his adolescent mindset will allow. He's also so full of ridiculous beliefs and propaganda it's as bad as if fox news was doing this show.
When a human is able to clearly see that... ..."Gautama" is "something" I am aware of... ...and, not something I am... ...no matter how it "appears" from the outside... ...that I AM... ...that Awareness... That Presence... ...can be called Buddha. Please notice that it is "something" and not "someone"... ...someone is just a convenient lie... ....it is like calling an computer "Alice" or a hurricane "sandy"...
When a human is able to clearly see that... ..."Gautama" is "something" I am aware of... ...and, not something I am... ...no matter how it "appears" from the outside... ...that I AM... ...that Awareness... That Presence... ...can be called Buddha. Please notice that it is "something" and not "someone"... ...someone is just a convenient lie... ....it is like calling an computer "Alice" or a hurricane "sandy"...
One of the best interviews I've seen on BATGAP. Thanks Rick for so persistently pushing forward the contemporary scientific-materialistic world-view allowing Joel to "attack" that view from different directions, and he did that with such lucidity, such a clarity! Thoroughly enjoyed the conversation.
Very good interview! A great balance of question, inquiry, digging deeper and yet giving the speaker ample space to express himself freely.
Amazing interview! Thanks a lot!!
Wow, never seen awakening so clearly and stably expressed in human-form as this. He (Joel) is like a Lion, presesnt there, trying to express meaning in words... Always imperfect...
Very useful to me :)
Great interview. One of my favorites.
i really liked this interview ...one of my favorites for sure
All in all a lovely talk oozing with gems (apart from my gripes below). Only wish Joel lived in my neighborhood. Thanks guys.
Thank you Rick and thank you Joel. I would love to hear more interview with Joel. This interview was one of the riches interviews ever. I would like to hear more between you. Rick could you continue with Joel again really soon. This was brilliant for it was alive, vibrant, and going some where. It was from my point of view minds that were really connecting and unraveling something of value. You both were on the cutting edge. This is when interviewing comes alive rather than informational.MORE MORE MORE. Please and thank you.
Thank you Rick for this interview. I didn't know Joel Morwood, he is expressing so natural and clear The Buddha teachings.... not easy for an advaita follower (like you) to accept.... He knows what he talks. Thank you again!
PS. I would be interested to hear Joel talking about emptiness, impermanence, dependent origination, Maha, suchness.....
PROFOUND and BEAUTIFUL!!!!
Best guest ever.
Amazing interview :) thank you Rick and Joel
Ooooo- this was so good ! Joel really cuts right through, doesn't he ?!
I agree with Srinivasan G and Kwistenbiebel200 - this is one of BATGAP's best interviews !! thanks, Rick.
Hope you can follow up with a second interview in the "future" !
I loved this. Love what you do Rick, BatGap has become my favorite way of unwinding and feeding my heart and soul at the same time! I have to say though that it gets frustrating to hear you keep repeating what you believe, when someone is giving a glimpse into what feels so hard to grasp that words can't touch it. And yet you can feel the Greater Truth when someone is able to live the questions...the big bang theory, gravity ...are we willing to inquire...is this True, can we absolutely know that it is True? At a certain level of consciousness, we can see that these are stories just like the rest, but on a relative level they work for US. Not everyone and maybe we are not more evolved or better than a fundamentalist with very black and white thinking? Wow. Love this. I loved being shaken a wee bit by the thought that this is pure arrogance. I am a psychotherapist and had just shared Ken Wilbur's ideas w/a client who is struggling w/judgmental, critical parents. I gave the line about where their Spiritual evolutionary process may be at a more Primitive less evolved level. Ouch. I'm cringing as I do see the arrogance now. Rick, you are familiar with the point of discussion though right...like if a tree falls with no one to hear it, did it really fall? If everything originates from Consciousness then nothing exists outside of our dream, projection, stories..except on a relative level, whatever that is! Ha, love these points of inquiry so much!.
+katie cunningham I don't think the essential oneness of things and the fact that consciousness is "enlightened" in and of itself negates levels, hierarchies, levels of mental, emotional, spiritual social maturity on relative levels. I don't think it's arrogant to say an elephant is more intelligent than a tadpole. Here's something somewhat relevant to all this that I wrote recently, that you might enjoy: www.scienceandnonduality.com/if-everything-is-consciousness-is-everything-conscious/
BuddhaAtTheGasPump
Really great and thoughtful article!!!!
This is needed!
All the best to you Rick
Michael
A small but important correction: Simone Weil was not a Christian mystic but was a French Jewess, whose brother was a renowned mathematician. She was raised agnostic, but living in France, she seems to have adopted that religion; she had high regard for many religions, including Hinduism, and she appreciated the energy of black church gospel. She never completed her conversion to Catholicism due to her reservations on this matter. She seems to have accepted Yeshu as her savior, even dying at 33, which is also his reputed death age. One would do well to actually read her, particularly Le Pesanteur et la Grace.
The most salient point that sticks out in this interview seems to be whether there is an ultimate reality and if it can be known. I did not hear this interview in one sitting but I think Rick argued that there is an ultimate reality and Joel argued that there isn't? Kant said there is Being but the mind cannot know it. Bradley then questioned that, saying that if Being cannot be known, then how do we know it exists in the first place? Why a complete God would want to create an apparent world, full of suffering as well as joy, remains inchoate. As much as it may be illusory in some sense, it is little consolation to those suffering. Being God's entertainment is not a very high place in the scheme of things, after all, if that is what we come to. The joke is on us; that hardly seems to be worthy of anything I would call God.
And, if God is doing everything, that leaves little role for free will, so the religious reason for our existence would be lost in that case, if one wished to argue that this world is a testing ground of our ethics under fire. There clearly seems no way to answer what we are all doing here, disturbingly. No matter what you believe, there is always that pesky left-over, that jigsaw piece that just won't fit.
+jazzsnare On your small point, I was under the imperssion that Weil was Christian. In Wokipedia it says:
' In her Spiritual Autobiography however, Weil records that she always had a Christian outlook, taking to heart from her earliest childhood the idea of loving one's neighbour. Weil became attracted to the Christian faith beginning in 1935, the first of three pivotal experiences for her being when she was moved by the beauty of villagers singing hymns during an outdoor service that she stumbled across during a holiday to Portugal'
On your wondering about their views re ultimate reality, ...I think you have to confused:... Joel is IN the ultimate reality, that's what he is embodying all along!
I agree with you re 'useless suffering', to be honest...
+Julian Bates There is nothing in what you wrote that contradicts me. She was born a Jewess; she identified with the prevailing Christianity of France however. She was not given very much, if any, background in her native religion, raised by non-practicing parents.
Excellent interview! Some good analogies there too.
A common mistake we make is to compare the manifested (dual/relative) world, e.g. gravity, with the Unmanifest.
A wonderful conversation! Now I know that Quantum state and cockroaches are Buddha nature, infinite possibilities and the collapse into multiplicity and diversity...
Thanks a lot Rick, it takes some patience to do some interviews 😀 very interesting for us though
A dude likes this.....Muchas Gracias ..
great job Rick
seems authentic, thanks
Hi Rick,
I want to say thank you for all the work you do. I love your interviews.
In this interview, your conversation about gravity with Joel seems to bring up the question about whether or not there is an objective reality that exists beyond perception. A very interesting book on this exact topic is 'Refuting the External World' by Goran Backlund. I found the book to be insightful and thought provoking...and only 42 pages. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it...and maybe even see an interview with Goran.
Thanks,
Fran
+Francine Taitel Thanks Fran. Looks interesting. I'll add it to my reading list. Have you followed Bernardo Kastrup's work? You might enjoy him.
+BuddhaAtTheGasPump No I haven't. I will definitely give it a look. Thanks!
Love this guy! Truth
I always get a kick out of that age old "snake/ rope" distinction. It's just a simple recognition of the appearance of how real illusion is, the grip it has on one until one "comes to one's senses" and see how the person gets tricked by his or her own thought based misperceptions.
Realization might not change what you do...
...but, it does change 'how' you do it... ...and... ...'why' you do it...
Ok. Is that what you think?
What about the apparent "others" who "experienced" it differently? Should they discard what they experienced first-hand, consider their first-hand experience all wrong and trust "apparent" "Bob Reed" to be the Ultimate Final True Knower of all things (and not things)?
"Apparent" "you" - to use "your" words :-)
That is for "you" to answer. You describe yourself.
Defining enlightenment?
Why don’t we start with something much simpler?
Can you please define happiness? Can you do it accurately? Can you measure it externally?
Can you please define joy?
Can you please define love?
Can you please define compassion?
Can you please define peace?
"Experiencing" the "whole"? I mean being Whole? Being Complete? Being Done?
*A 1.5 on a -3.0 to +3.0 scale*
Good one, but it used to be (way back) mostly about exploring the experience of the awakened. These days there tends to be an alibi 10 minutes of that, and then there is almost 2 hours of armchair attempts at philosophizing.
I'd love to see one of my intricate hand painted mandalas on your wall
"How to get liberated?"... ...is... ...a wrong question.
Ask... ..."what binds me right in this moment?"... ...that is the right question.
The wish to get liberated in the "future" is already based on a wrong "belief" and because of that it can't be possibly fulfilled.
Ask where is the "future" right in this moment.
Ask where is “time” right in this moment.
Ask who creates “time” and “future” right at this moment and how it gets created.
Can the future exist without time? Can the time exist without the thinking?
+advaitanr2 What do you mean by "enlightened people"?
+advaitanr2 Until you clearly define what you mean by the word "enlightenment"... ...talking about it might not be very useful...
Remember that you need to define only what you mean by this word, whether others agree with that definition or not doesn't matter that much.
+advaitanr2 How do you describe your experience of Satori?
What is the meaning of multiple awakenings?
...that one has fallen asleep again?
What is the meaning of levels, layers, travel and progress?
...that on is still dreaming?
Why does it mean that one is dreaming?
...do levels, layers and journey and progress exist without... ...thoughts?
Having a backbone is the mother of the back-pain. No backbone, no back-pain and no need to get rid of it.
Having a car is the mother of the engine problems. No car, no need to repair its engine.
The problem of thinking is the mother of the problem of enlightenment.
No thinking… ...no need to get enlightened.
HI Rick, I didn't watch this one yet but I have watched many past interviews. Im a big fan of what you do. You do a great job, However.... There are two interviews I want to mention. One where the woman had a vivid detailed past life memory being a disciple of Buddha, the other woman had one detailed memory where she was crucified next to Jesus on the cross. You didn't ask her to describe what they looked like. I realized its not that important but damn weren't you even a little curious???
Ego versus Ahamkara: As far as I know the Indian languages like Hindi and Sanskrit have no word that means exactly what the word 'ego' seems to mean...
I think when Buddha and early Buddhist teachers or early Advaita teacher were teaching... ...they were not teaching regardig 'ego' as this word is used in the English language currently...
Yes, there is word 'ahamkara' in Sanskrit and In Hindi... ...but, Ahmakra doesn't denote same thing that the word 'ego' does...
In fact, in the common usage, the word Ahamkra is closer to the word 'pride' than it is to the word 'ego'...
Ahamkra is related to 'pride', 'prestige', 'self respect', 'self image', 'the feeling of self worth'... ...but, not related to the animal survival instinct...
Ahamkara is more related... ...to how one 'wants to be seen' and 'known' in the society... ...it is similar to 'external image', the 'mask' one wants to show to others...
What is Reality?
============
From my perspective...
From the perspective of Consciousness...
...Without memory, thoughts and senses... ....what exists?
...Without consciousness... ...what exists?
Besides my perspective, besides the consciousness perspective... ...which other perspective... ...I truly, directly know?
+TOA (Transmission of Awakening) Thats the point where a bit of Haiku poetry is needed. Like: Frog jumps. SPLASH!!!!
No. I don’t think the ‘reality’ is playing some ‘self-torture’ game. I think this is the best that the reality that could do at this moment.
The idea that the "reality" is all-knowing entity that already know everything (in advance) is the idea of some humans. This idea is not supported by the present evidence. I see reality more as a self-learning, self-evolving, intelligent, conscious process that is learning and evolving. It makes errors and mistakes (just as we "the reality" do), it learns (just as we "the reality" do), it adopts, adapts and evolves (just as we "the reality" do).
It took this process billions of years just to reach where it is today.
No, (like us "the reality") it doesn't know everything in advance. As it moves, by that movement, the outcome gets created, it observes, learns, adapts, changes course and keep doing the same thing (just as we "the reality" do).
We being "the reality" ourselves... ...the reality works very similar to how we do... ...learn, educate, adapt... ...evolve.
+TOA (Transmission of Awakening) Is reality 'a' being? Does it evolve in time? Surely time is not outside of reality.
+James van der Hoorn I am that “reality”.
You are that “reality”.
Do you learn, adapt and evolve in time?
I does not seem to evolve or change at all. Nothing happens. Becoming is a mystery.
+James van der Hoorn There is something that changes as one eats food and exercises. You can call it the body.
There is something that change with the time (age), you can see that change in the mirror. Others can see that change too.
There is something that changes with the twenty years of schooling and with the five years of training.
There is something that learns to drive, swim, ski, dance, sing, play piano or to program. There is something that learns English, French, Spanish, Sanskrit.
Is that the body - maybe
Is that the brain - maybe
I am using the word reality to include all of that.
If “enlightenment” is so incredibly blissful and so “permanent”... ...why do many mediators, “getters”, “gurus” and famous “enlightened beings” are found running after women, sex, watches, jewellery, cars, clothes, wine and money?
Then, maybe, until the point where all the conditioning has burned up and living one completely free, the full enlightenment or nirvana hasn't happened?
It is just a matter of "word usage". When is it correct to refer to someone as "fully enlightened" - after all the conditioning has burnt up?
Can a cockroach get enlightened?
Enlightenment is the loss of the ego, the ego being the false idea of self.
Does a Cockroach has ego? If not, a Cockroach has no reason to get enlightened?
Is there any “un enlightenment” without ego?
Where is ...the “un enlightenment”... when you are not thinking?
Where is the “false identification” when you are not thinking?
Where is the “ego” when you are not thinking?
Enlightenment is the loss of the “personhood”. Enlightenment is end of belief in being a “person”. Enlightenment is the end of the belief in being a separate, independent person with free will and choice.
Enlightenment is the end of identification with being a character in one’s own thinking.
Does a Cockroach think?
Does a Cockroach thinks that it is character in its own thought?If a Cockroach doesn’t think it has no false identification and it has no need and no reason to get enlightened.
Some problems are closely linked to thinking. Without thinking these problems don’t exist and thus the need to resolve them too doesn’t arise.
Does a cockroach plan?
Does a Cockroach get worried, anxious and stressed?
Does a Cockroach get depressed?
Where is the need of enlightenment for the one who has no concept of the past or the future.
Where is the need of enlightenment for the one who doesn't think of the past or the future.
Where is the need of enlightenment for the one who doesn't think.
Learning to drive, learning to ski, learning to bike... ...includes... ...learning to stop. Learning to think correctly... ...includes... ...learning... ...to relax and to give thinking a rest i.e. to 'not think'... ...when thinking is not necessary.
Seeing Angels - depending on one's cultural background, education, experience and belief - seeing Angels can either be sigh of great accomplishment or a really serious mental delusion or a flat lie or fabrication.
Enlightenment is simply a problem caused by thinking.
Enlightenment is learning to think correctly.
Does an unconscious human body need to get enlightenment?
Does a woman absorbed in the deep dreamless sleep need to get enlightened?
+advaitanr2 What is the meaning of running well or running correctly?
In my view, it means to run efficiently, optimally (based on your capacity) yet without over-exerting yourself and without hurting or injuring yourself.
Who is the judge? The runner is the judge. The runner might get other experts involved if he/she injures himself/herself and needs help.
What is thinking correctly?
Thinking efficiently and optimally (based on your capacity) but without causing yourself mental-pain, suffering and confusion.
Who is the judge? The thinker is.
Others are needed to help only when the thinker finds himself/herself in pain and seeks help.
The second issue that I see is that a human being attempting to live an enlightened life ( i.e. a life completely free of dukha or suffering ) is like a grasshopper trying to fly. A grasshopper can certainly leap into the air and defy gravity for some time. However, a grasshopper is not really a falcon. It can neither fathom the height that a falcon can nor can it stay airborn that long. For the falcon, the flight is effortless and natural. The grasshopper is quite limited in that regard.
A human being is ultimately bound by the capacity of its body and the brain and its evolution, it can’t truly leap beyond what the body-brain could sustain. Yet once it gets the taste of ...“being airborne”... ...it is hard to not do it again and again.
+Kwistenbiebel200 Learning to drive includes learning how to stop. Learning to bike includes learning how to stop. Learning to ski includes learning how to stop.
Once I know how to stop thinking, resolving the problems caused by thinking becomes easier. The intelligence, the consciousness that remains and operates in the absence of thinking… ...gets space to operate freely once the thinking has subsided.
One who needs to drive on the busy streets of metros, need to learn how to move and also how to stop. One who lives a modern life in a modern society, needs to learn to solve problems by thinking and also to relax and stop thinking.
For the modern human living in the modern world… ...it is not enough to just learn how to stop thinking, how to relax or how to meditate. Many of us are “knowledge workers” in the “knowledge economy” and pretty much all this knowledge is thoughts. Many modern humans spend twenty years in school just repeating and remembering “information” (thoughts) and different ways of thinking (math, science, philosophy, psychology). After learning for twenty years, many spend most of the later life, applying that learned thought (information) 6-10 hours a day for “work” and 2-3 hours more for mortgage, kids homework, savings, investments, bills, schedule, “vacation planning” and other things. Even our entertainment includes “reading”, “writing” or watching movies, TV or news - all of which are “thought based”. This is the reality of the modern man living in the modern society and therefore, I think learning to “think correctly” is essential - just learning to “not think” is not enough.
+advaitanr2 How will you describe that tornado? I think that tornado is caused when the thinking/reasoning/imagining mind comes face to face with that silence - I think that point the mind or the consciousness has already split into two - the complete silence and the "I". That is the moment of "singularity" and then comes the "explosion" - the Big Bang.
For lucid dreaming: www.upaya.org/2010/03/lucid-dreaming-and-dream-yoga-part-1-of-13/ this is about lucid dreaming very detailed info for anyone that's interested. They ask an email but u can always give one that u dont use a lot if u have problems giving email adresses. It's Alan wallace that teaches.
Definitions
========
I will describe what I mean.
Thought: a piece of internal verbal information.
Speech: a piece of external verbal or written information.
Information: a representation of a thing in language
Language: a set of symbols to represent information.
Belief: an unverified information assumed to be true.
Fact: an information verified to be true.
Compulsion: the sensation in the body that represents body’s demand/need to do something. This is similar to hunger, thirst. This is similar to addiction of smoking. Other habits too work the same way - be it the compulsion to check facebook, twitter, google, stock market, yahoo groups, imessage or phone or be it the compulsion to have sex, fight or argument. Almost every action builds a habit. Almost every habit works via compulsion.
Anger: compulsion to attack.
Fear: compulsion to run and if running is not possible then to shrink and hide.
Lust: compulsion to have sex with someone in particular.
Love: a spontaneous happiness on seeing, thinking or imagining someone or something.
Peace: no compulsion to run away or to attack or to change or to move away - at home with the present situation.
Enlightenment: reaching the very core. Reaching a point that I can’t go beyond and I can no longer ask any question, I can no longer imagine any other reality, any other God or any other level or destination.
Realization: knowing my innermost core beyond which I can’t see, imagine, know or ask anything.
Awakening: falling away of the feeling of being someone.
Ignorance: the belief of being someone.
Truth: an information verified on all levels - senses (sight, touch, smell, sound…), reasoning and awareness and in all states - sleep, wakefulness, dream.
Relative truth: an information verified at the level of senses and reasoning but only in one state - wakefulness.
Enlightenment: the state in which there is no one… …(else)... ...left to explain, answer or own anything. The state in which the power to imagine anyone or anything… …(else)... ...ceases.
The dark night of soul: the spontaneous fear (and the resultant self-created hallucination) felt on discovering that there is no one else… …(left)... and, there is no other possibility.
Advaita: the systematic belief system teaching that there is no one else and there is no other possibility.
Feeling: vibrational and hormonal (chemical) state state of the body.
Reality: present experience including current thoughts, feelings and information.
Desire: the pull towards another imagined possibility.
Discontent: the feeling of lack.
Feeling of lack: the thought that something is missing accompanied by the corresponding feeling in the body.
Anxiety: the fear of an imagined possibility.
Hope: belief that the desired state will happen.
Despair: belief that the feeling of lack will remain because the desired state will not happen.
Suffering: persistent fear, anger, discontent, despair, lust without release.
Suffering: painful chemical (hormonal) feeling in the body without any known physical cause. painful chemical (hormonal) feeling in the body that occurs in response to thoughts.
Stillness: a stable effortless state of the body. The state in which body seems to use and lose least amount of energy and spend least amount of effort.
Happiness: the state of the body in which body appears to generate energy in place of using or losing it. The state of the body in which body appears to generate energy accompanied by cool, comfortable sensation.
Bliss: an unstable, excited state in which body appears to generate a lot of energy without any painful sensation. An unstable, excited state in which body appears to generate a lot of energy accompanied by a cool sensation.
Rage: the state of the body in which body appears to generate a lot energy accompanied by a hot and painful sensation.
Soul: Ignorance multiplied by Ignorance. The dream within the dream.
Reincarnation: Ignorance multiplied by Ignorance multiplied by Ignorance. The dream within the dream within the dream.
Heaven: Ignorance glorified.
The Good News: in spite of all the dreams, in spite of all the experiences, in spite of identifying with all imagined dream characters… ...the consciousness remains consciousness.
The Bad News: in spite of all the dreams, in spite of all the experiences, in spite of identifying with all imagined dream characters… ...the consciousness remains consciousness.
Shiva: the state of consciousness in which entire experience (all that is sensed, felt, thought, imagined, known, reasoned…) is known to be the part of the self and thus is loved as the part of the self. The state of consciousness which is the experience is loved completely as one whole. The state of consciousness which is the experience is loved completely as one whole without needing to divide it into good or bad, desired and feared.
Krishna: the state of consciousness in which all experiences are experienced fully and completely with love yet without forgetting the innermost core of “self-less-ness”. The state of consciousness in which all experiences are experienced fully and completely with love as if one was willingly chosen to have them. The state of consciousness in which each experience is fully desired, welcomed and loved.
How is the discovery of spirituality like?
It is like looking at the blue sky from earth and then travelling to find it… ...only to discover that there is no such thing as the sky…
( no matter how real it looks from the earth during the daylight.)
What happens when this discovery is made?
I guess disillusionment can result. Terror too can result. Disbelief too can result.
What happens if disillusionment, terror or disbelief occurs?
I guess one returns to the earth and looks at the blue sky again and says… ...yes, there is a sky and it is blue and it is glorious. One hears and repeats the stories of the sky. i.e. …….one dreams again.
What was your first feeling when you woke up to the fact that you were awake?
Extreme terror
What is your feeling now when you remember it?
Extreme terror
Who is Buddha?
One is who is at peace with the sunyata (self-less-ness).
Are you a Buddha?
No. I am afraid of falling into that state again. I am afraid of getting frozen into that state.
What does the sunyata lack?
It lacks the other.
Who is the other?
Imagination
How does one come out of Sunyata?
Throught imagination. Imagination is the creation.
What is the cause of creation?
In my case, it has been fear of facing the (my) reality.
Why the fear?
I found it too intense and too incomprehensible.
What about others like Ramana, Buddha… ?
I guess they were either more courageous or more desperate or both.
What is teaching true spirituality like?
It is like telling people that there is no such thing as sky.
What do people really want?
A gloriously, beautiful, perfect sky.
What did Buddha say instead?It seems he said… ...there is a way to dream better… ...there is way to reduce or eliminate dukkha (sorrowful thoughts).
Do you want to experience it again?
No
Do you wish others to experience it?
No - only to those who are as miserable, depressed, hopeless, anxious or afraid as supposedly Buddha, Ramana, Tolle, Katie were. For those who are relatively stable, content and happy… ...I think dream is much better.
What does it lack?
The other. The relationship. The experience. The change. The diversity.
What is the purpose of creation then?
I guess it might be - the other, the relationship, the experience, the change, the diversity.
Why did awakening happen to you?
I guess I became OK with everything and thus, I dropped all effort.
Why does the effort block awakening?
It takes effort to think. It takes effort to keep imagining. It takes effort to keep repeating lies. The core reality needs no effort to be what it always already is.
Why do I always think?
Because memory is built by repeating. Memory are the repeated thoughts. There are so many thing that you need to remember - your name, gender, race, relationships, bank account number, phone number, address, bank balance, social security number, you wife’s birthday, anniversary date, her hairdresser’s phone number, your prescription, your mother’s maiden name…
You are afraid that if don’t keep repeating them… ...you will forget…
What is the reality of it?
My experience says that… ...if you don’t keep repeating them… ...you will indeed forget them.
Dear Rick. Instead of bring up ISIS and cutting off heads in every 2nd show as an example of evil (its getting boring) how about bringing up the Cheney's Bush's etc. who started the whole problem by invading the Middle East for profit? I realize that since you get all your info on this from CNN (a mouthpiece for U.S. Imperialism) this will be difficult for you to do. The U.S. forces do not cut off heads. No they use massive weapons which blow bodies to smithereens beyond recognition and at times (Fallujah ) used depleted uranium resulting in terrible health consequences to human lives. It is disrespectful to think that all your listeners share you U.S. Imperialistic outlook. In 2002 I remember spending the night in a vigil which was a kind of mass prayer begging the U.S. not to invade. I KNEW that it would lead to no good whatsoever. ISIS is simply a consequence of this evil invasion. The people who supported this live all around you and it is THEY rather than ISIS that you should be focusing on as an example of evil. You said "I have not problem with bombing ISIS". Well I have a problem with bombing anyone. But if I had to choose I would choose bombing the likes of the Cheneys and the Bushes who engineered the wars. Switch off CNN and meditate instead. Every moment you watch CNN is another moment you have wasted in your quest for enlightenment as CNN is simply a programming device for U.S. imperialism. I watched the movie "Fair Game" starring Sean Penn and Naomi Watts which I recommend as an example of what really is evil.
+Kwistenbiebel200 He said this in an earlier interview with a woman. I can try to find it if you wish. But I am not interested in finding damning evidence. I am interested in us moving collectively to a position of mutual respect for our fellows instead of groupist sense of superiority. Joel was dead right when he called out Wilber's arrogance in thinking of himself as being so highly "evolved". This was exactly the mentality of colonialism both on the part of European colonialism and Japanese. Wilber btw has never spoken out against the so-called war on terror. Also it should be noted that in his book "Integral Spirituality" he never even mentions Islam a religion which has somewhat 1 billion followers amounting to a 1/6 of the human population. Though I have no evidence for this I am somewhat convinced that Wilber's whole color scheme (red level, green level, indigo etc.denoting levels of spiritual maturity) is born out of a need to find some kind of code to damn Islam. Green level people (code word for bleeding heart liberals) are those that don't see the need to obliterate the likes of Islam from the face of the earth and need to wake up to joining Wilber and his enlightened friends at the Intergral institute so they give moral support to the troops. May it be noted that Wilber was unhappy when Obama didn't bomb Syria. Tony Blair and the Clintons are examples of supporters of Wilber's elitist "philosophy".
+David Watermeyer The Cheney's Bush's etc. did not start "the whole problem". The roots of the whole problem lie much earlier and deeper. The dead-end ideology of Islamism for instance, springing from resentment and an inferiority complex, is one of those roots. The prophet Muhammad himself is an even deeper root, if the problem we're talking about is indeed the miserable state of the Arab world. This is not to condone Bush cum suis btw, whom I do feel are war criminals, guilty of mass murder.
+James van der Hoorn Hi James. For me its not a question of laying blame or identifying with who exactly started the problem. Its rather about how we move forward. Each one of us is real. Each one of us is unique has red blood flowing through our veins and feels fear and pain. Though we associate with groups each is still a unique individual. My concern is how easily we condemn whole groups of people. Having been brought up in apartheid South Africa and like 95% of whites who saw no problem with this (well until I came to my senses when I was 19 years old) I saw how easily this takes place. My thesis is that Americans kind of grow up in a similar way, thinking of themselves as being superior to people from other nations. This is why for the most part they don't really concern themselves with the horrors of the way they (most anyway) endorsed the recent invasions in the Mid East. There is hardly any contrition for this and at the drop of the hat despite all that has happened they would be fully behind a war on Iran. Rick who tunes in to CNN daily would have no problem with this and its completely and utterly insane and barbaric. He goes on an on about how barbaric it is to cut peoples heads of with swords - and yes it is. But it is no less barbaric to blow people up using advanced weapons just to lay one's hands on territory and resources and lie that its to spread democracy. That would be what the war on Iran would be for. To get their territory and resources.
+Kwistenbiebel200 Agreed. The only difference between Sam Harris and the neocons is level of honestly. The neocons proudly call themselves such while Sam Harris doesn't. When one reads through comments written by Sam Harris's followers one would think one was in the midst of some white supremacist KKK like group. And Rick is disappointed that he hasn't been able to get him on his show! Poor Rick and lucky batgap listeners for being spared listening to one of the most pathologically arrogant, self-loving, and self-righteous people walking this planet today. And Harris pretends he understands Buddhism better than the Buddhists! If it wasn't so serious it would be comic.
+David Watermeyer I feel you miss the Essence of the talk(never mind Rick,) and merely want to vent your political p-o-v. I feel more wisdom/sanity and space in one sentence of what Rick said compared to this reactionary-emptiness to be frank.
When a human is able to clearly see that... ..."Gautama" is "something" I am aware of... ...and, not something I am... ...no matter how it "appears" from the outside...
...that I AM... ...that Awareness... That Presence... ...can be called Buddha.
Please notice that it is "something" and not "someone"... ...someone is just a convenient lie... ....it is like calling an computer "Alice" or a hurricane "sandy"...
Rick is to spirituality what pee wee herman is to theater. He keeps the conversation at an almost childish level and refuses to take it deeper than his adolescent mindset will allow. He's also so full of ridiculous beliefs and propaganda it's as bad as if fox news was doing this show.
When a human is able to clearly see that... ..."Gautama" is "something" I am aware of... ...and, not something I am... ...no matter how it "appears" from the outside...
...that I AM... ...that Awareness... That Presence... ...can be called Buddha.
Please notice that it is "something" and not "someone"... ...someone is just a convenient lie... ....it is like calling an computer "Alice" or a hurricane "sandy"...
When a human is able to clearly see that... ..."Gautama" is "something" I am aware of... ...and, not something I am... ...no matter how it "appears" from the outside...
...that I AM... ...that Awareness... That Presence... ...can be called Buddha.
Please notice that it is "something" and not "someone"... ...someone is just a convenient lie... ....it is like calling an computer "Alice" or a hurricane "sandy"...