When you put "cells interlinked" I was expecting a Blade Runner reference, and you did not disappoint. Thanks for the chuckles and a very informative video nonetheless :)
Very well done! From an electrical engineer. Glad I discovered your channel and subscribed almost immediately. We can do without all the personal opinions, sales talk and fluff on other RUclips channels.
I love finding channels that tell me things I didn't know about things I already know a fair bit about. Instant like and subscribe. Bonus for mentioning Big Clive, he got me watching all these tech/DIY channels on RUclips.
Awesome test series! Never thought of checking for EMI from these rechargeable lithium cells, but it makes sense given the nature of the electronics used to provide the desired voltage from this cell chemistry.
I'm glad you actually tested for EMI noise. It's one of the often-overlooked drawbacks and it's the reason why I advise against any of these lithium-ion AA batteries for specific uses, like audio equipment such as wireless lavalier microphone systems. There's not much space in there and I would imagine it's almost impossible to cram competent filtering in them.
Hi! thank you for this video, I appreciate the very high quality and effort you put into this content, nowadays it is really rare to find this kind of well documented videos, liked and subscribed
I find it kind of odd that the roughly 3Wh in the best Li-Ion AA cells is basically the same as what you get from a decent NiMH AA cell. I suppose the sligntly lower voltage of NiMH chemistry could be a factor, but I've yet to find anything that won't run on NiMH cells as they have a slightly higher voltage than the older NiCd chemistry cells.
@@on-the-fritz I noticed that with my power-hungry Kodak digital camera back in 2000. A set of 4 alkaline AAs would get chewed up pretty quick (could be used in less intense stuff after), but a set of NiMH cells would last at least three times as long. And the ones I had at the time were only 1300mAh.
@@on-the-fritz At a 1A drain, that doesn't surprise me at all. I recall the Alkaline AAs in my camera getting warm. Not quite as warm as my old Tyco Turbo Hopper (the 8AA version before the 9.6V battery pack was a thing), but still warm. I wish I had tried NiMH cells in my Game Boy. It was low drain, but even my 600mAh NiCd AAs lasted all day and then some on a charge.
A well-produced video with helpful and balanced writing that a layperson or the technician will easily understand. Although this video helped answer my research questions, its release feels premature as the website link takes one to an incomplete site. This video and website show great potential, and I hope you launch your RUclips channel and website soon.
It's true; the web site isn't much more than a proof-of-concept right now, but we are busy working on a new video and a web site update with some exciting new features. Both will be released in August. Note: more of the web site is accessible at no charge just by registering your email address (we will not sell or otherwise share your email address). Thanks for the kind words, the thoughtful feedback and for subscribing.
True, proper electrical engineering validation. Thank you for providing such a well-done analysis, in a concise video with such useful info. You've earned my sub!
Very good, professional test! Respect! I also expect a lot of noise from these tiny DC-DC-converters. I hope getting my order of a set of even smaller 1.5 V converted AAA Lithium batteries delivered soon. So I will do my own investigations with my spectrum analyzer on different loads. Thanks for your inspiration.
So if that buck converter is running all the time, what are the self-discharge parameters? One of my biggest gripes about NiMH batteries is that they are pretty much dead after 6 months of storage.
Yes, the buck-converter's always running. In storage it would sleep in discontinuous mode, waking up periodically to maintain output voltage. If it's properly designed it shouldn't add much to the self-discharge you can expect from a lithium-ion cell (2 - 3% according to Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discharge). Newer NiMH cells claim to have lower self-discharge rates. Eneloop, for example, claims they will have 70% of their charge after 10 years (www.panasonicbatteryproducts.com/eneloop_rechargeable_batteries/eneloop_rechargeable_batteries-aa_4-pack/)
Oh my Lord I had absolutely no idea there were USB rechargeable AA batteries! I've never purchased something so quickly my life I'm truly shocked that somehow I've never seen or heard about anything like that. Thank you so much!
Phenomenal work and a great way of illustrating the limfacs of EMI from these cells. I think cost is one of the primary barriers to entry for these as well since the average consumer looks at initial cost before considering long range utilization as a function of average cost.
The nickel-zinc rechargeable cells we test in a imminent video might work for you. They are made by EBL and are available on Amazon.com (ASIN B0CFDK5VP2). If you share the make and model of your wireless mic, its user manual might have enough information for us to be more certain.
I have so many questions for someone that understands Electrinics. But for now. I just bought 8 Hixon 1.5 AA’s then discovered since I have a smart charger with sixteen slots that gave me a grumpy beep when I tried to charge them. Bought the Hixon 4 bay charger. This is for toys for my sons. I’m terrified they will try to charge regular batteries in the new charger, or lithiums into a cheap ‘energizer’ charger. How strong is the propensity for a thermal runaway fire that nothing but a suffocating wet blanket can even attempt to control. Is it worth it for the extra voltage and lifespan to have both laying around? What happens when my son throws his RC car in the air or drops it from the bomb bay of his drop and snaps a battery in half ( admittedly this would be tough but I never underestimate the destructive capabilities of an experimental toddler )
The recharging of buck-regulated (bucked) lithium cells is not standardized in the industry and we aren't aware of any manufacturers that provide a charging specification. The manufacturers of the cells we tested insist we charge their cells ONLY in their chargers. It's reasonable to expect a properly designed, bucked lithium cell to not be damaged or dangerous when put in a NiMH charger (if that's what your Energizer charger is) and for a NiMH cell to not be damaged when put in a Hixon charger, but unless the manufacturers warrant it in writing, do NOT count on it. Our lawyer's advice: an adult should be in charge (pun intended) of recharging. Note also that some cells have a low internal resistance and precocious kids could get some entertaining and potentially dangerous pyrotechnics playing with a cell and aluminum foil.
Also a NiMH cell reduces its voltage as it discharges, whereas the bucked lithium-ion cells hold a constant 1.5V (and constant power) over their entire discharge.
Sorry, there's no definitive answer to your question. Unless a device manufacturer claims compatibility, they probably didn't increase design time and parts cost to filter out the EMI noise of rechargeable lithium-ion cells/batteries. EMI noise *might* cause interference in electronic circuitry, especially, in your case, the sensitive analog circuitry of an image-intensification camera. So it depends on your use-case. Unreliable equipment is tolerable if you're hunting wild hogs, but not if you're on a Seal Team Six mission. Generally speaking, rechargeable lithium-ion cells/batteries are suitable for simple devices with mechanical switches, motors, heaters, LEDs, etc., but even then, they *might* cause interference in nearby sensitive equipment.
@@on-the-fritz wow. Thankyou. I had already made a purchase of rechargeable NiMH batteries based on this video and the comments of others here. Thanks for your informative and prompt response. God bless
Good choice. In our next video we'll talk about NiMH, which have about twice the energy of alkaline cells. They run about 0.3V lower than alkaline though.
An electronic lock typically doesn't have any analog or radio circuitry and shouldn't be sensitive to EMI. Keep in mind lithium-ion has a higher self-discharge rate than alkaline (ZnMnO2) or disposable lithium (LiFeS2).
Luckily most things that I have come across that utilize AA or AAA batteries are disappearing. Nowadays I only see them in remote controls, wireless keyboards and mice. I use disposable batteries in those since they tend to last multiple years and I don't believe the environmental impact is significantly less when I use rechargables. Of course I properly dispose of them and not put them in the trash.
On a recent trip, it occurred to me removable lithium-ion batteries and cells have an advantage when flying: you can check-in the device they power and carry the batteries in your carry-on, per TSA rules. Devices that take standard AA or AAA tend to be inexpensive enough to risk checking in.
My biggest problem with rechargable batteries is their self-discharge performance. Take a battery-powered clock - a NiMH battery lasts about six months before it needs to be changed because it is self discharging faster than the power required by the clock. An alkaline battery will easily last over a year.
Newer NiMH claim to have low self-discharge rates. Panasonic claims their Eneloop cells will have 70% of their charge after 10 years (www.panasonicbatteryproducts.com/eneloop_rechargeable_batteries/eneloop_rechargeable_batteries-aa_4-pack/)
very professionally made content, thank you. However, a typical use case for these types of batteries would be nowhere near 1A load. As you mentioned, the capacity of all of these is likely much higher if measured at a lighter load. Does this mean that Hixon J818 is still a winner in a typical scenario or should I consider Kentli instead, for example? Unfortunately it seems to be impossible to tell without some additional testing.
You can expect an increase in tested capacity at lighter loads, just because it takes longer to reach the cutoff voltage when there's less of a voltage drop across the cell's internal resistance. It's anybody's guess how buck converter efficiency changes with load current. So you are correct, more tests are needed to be certain, but we'd be surprised if rankings change at lower load currents. We are currently scrambling to get our next video uploaded and an update to the web site released, but we'll add 500mA load tests for a selection of cells to our to-do list. Thanks for your kind words, your interest and the suggestion.
@@on-the-fritz That's awesome that 500mA tests are coming. One other thing that occurred to me after reading some reviews from those who have purchased the various batteries on your list is that some early/random failures had to do with 'failure to charge'. I'm not sure if this means that architectures that have only discharge circuitry have a better chance of avoiding such failures and my personal experience is limited to using one aaa kentli in my razor (which still works after 8+ years of use). I've ordered 4 AAs now to give them a test. 10 years later i'll know if that was a good idea :)
We like that a Kentli cell isn't burdened with discharge circuitry and its three contact design, which (if our guesses are correct), would allow a battery-powered device to optionally bypass the buck-regulator and tap the lithium-ion cell directly. We've seen some failures in our sample of buck-regulated cells, but didn't have the time to determine exactly what failed. We had some lab time to perform 500mA discharge tests on four samples of each of four make/models, but don't want to upload results, because the production web site hasn't yet been tested to present more than one current per make/model. Meanwhile, here are the average discharge energies (in watt-hours): Manufacturer / Model, 500mA, 1A, % XTAR / 2500mAh, 3.208, 2.824, 13.6% Hixon / J818, 3.149, 2.793, 12.7% EBL / 3000mWh, 2.628, 2.283, 15.1% Kentli / PH5, 2.555, 2.123, 20.3% Summary The buck-converters in these cells are 13 - 20 % more efficient at 500mA compared to 1A. Note that the ranking doesn't change with load current. In theory, you could cut 'n paste the above into a CSV file for import and better readability in a spreadsheet.
Learned something new! Didn't know about buck convertor inside these cells (makes sense now that i think of it). Would it be difficult to modify a tool to accept batteries like this? Could be an interesting video 😊 . I assume a small in series impedance would do the trick for the switching frequencies in the mhz range?
Something like a ferrite would help, but it would have to be effective at the fundamental and harmonics of the switching frequency (harmonics probably extend far above the upper limit of the CISPR 22 test), while conducting a heavy (relative to the RF noise) DC current. Whatever Apple did in the A1385 works well. Maybe a designer of switching supplies will weigh in?
You're correct. We don't recommend buck-regulated cells in wireless devices because the noise they make can intermodulate with the oscillators in digital circuitry to create interference all over the RF and audio spectrums.
@@on-the-fritz I wonder if it makes a difference if the mic transmissions system is digital (not analogue). Maybe I would give a try and buy 4 of such to see how they work with that particular device :D
Buck-regulators operate well above audio frequencies in continuous mode, but in discontinuous mode (at low load currents), they might be audible. Don't use them in devices that process RF or low level signals! Would a video explaining intermodulation be of interest? Unfortunately there isn't a lot of reliable data on Ni-Zn. They might be okay if discharged consistently and recharged regularly (ie don't rely on the device to notify of low battery level). They are certainly cheaper than disposable and make no EMI noise.
Hello! Thank you for these videos very informative. Especially the part about EMI, I was unaware. I am a professional sound mixer using a lot of wireless mics. Of the brands you have tested are many I use. LADDAS, Xtar and eneloops. You say not to use any of these batteries in highly sensitive electronics like wireless mics. So my question is what should I use then? I currently run Lectrosonics wireless in my kit.
Lectrosonics makes nice gear! We'll contact their support department and ask. Meanwhile, can you share which model you use and how long the mic has to run between charges?
The only bad thing about your charts on yourSit3, is that your price point chart seems to only be for non-chargeable.. I was hoping you had it for the li-ion rechargeables.
We’d like to do a price point chart for rechargeables, but we’ll need a few more patrons to afford it! To do it properly, we’d have to test cycle life by charging and discharging cells until they only held 80% of their original charge, then divide their cost by the total energy they were able to transfer from charger to load over their entire cycle life. We’d have to buy or custom build a test jig that charges and discharges the hundred or so samples we’ve got at a controlled ambient temperature. Stay tuned…
@@on-the-fritz Looking forward to it. in the meantime, I grabbed some of the "pujimax" 3400 mWh (light blue with white writing). They are by far the ch3apest rechargeable li-ion; (with only slightly less performance rating). I can get them for two bucks each when I order 20.. (or 8 - $19). Most of the others are closer to 40 for 8, or even more.. I read enough decent revi3ws about these that it's worth using them at that pric3.
@@on-the-fritz Looking forward to it. Make sure you put 'puj^max 3400mWh" on the list (light blue with white writing). They were the cheapest I've found for price/performance (at least on paper). I'd like to see how they test..
@@on-the-fritz No.. It's puj^max 3400mWh.. (My ^ symbol = i ) .. I can't spell it out, because it will auto d3lete. They are on fl333bay and scAmaozn... Lithium rechargeable.
9 месяцев назад
Wow. Nice test. I wish I could buy these brands but these are not available in Europe. Btw, this is the first comment of the first video, yay!
Yes, you're the first of the first. You should be able to get lithium-ion AA cells in Europe. I'm sure Aliexpress would ship to the EU and I know the Hixon cells are available on Amazon.de. Thanks for watching!
At first a ISB jack on a cell may appear to he a smart solution for chargin3. That concept loses its appeal when multiple cells need to be charged. Then a multiport USB power source is required and multiple USB cables. This may be more of a.pain than forking over a few buckazoids for a multi-cell charger.
Very nice . I have had trouble with them Li-Ion 1.5V rechargeables because of noise from electronics . I found a fix and works in some electronics just fine . AA is about 14500 size. So I found 14500 LiFePo4 3.2V cell this has no electronics. So on a 3V system use 1 dummy cell . or re wire batt holder to parrallo . Also some electronics can use 3.7V cells. witch is just .7V higher than 2 -1.5V cells. LFP cells 3.2V offer much better cycle life. There is some Nickel Zinc 1.6V rechargeable on the market but have poor cycle life but better than the rechargeable alkaline manganese (RAM) type. I am finding that modern electronics is using standard 18650 type cells now. The older AAA/AA/C/D are fading away in new devices . And for remote controller they are switching to coin cells and you can get rechargeable ones as well.
Yes, that's a good solution if your device takes an even number of cells. You have to be careful you don't damage the LiFePO4 by discharging below its cutoff voltage though. We cover this in our next video. Note you can get LiFePO4 in AA form too: www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005870958670.html
The whole idea to make lithium-ion 3.7V/Cell compatible with the typical 1.5V/Cell is stupid. The only way to make this problem go away is to introduce new standard sizes/shapes for lithium-ion cells that are just replaceable without the need for buck converters. The problem is that no hard case universal models that are vendor independent standardized exist. If something like that exists, slowly but surely more vendors would make new appliances with this new standard and the old one would fade over time. Yes that will take many years, but lithium-ion already exists long enough. If they would have done this from the start it would not been a problem today. It's just companies trying to keep market with propriety designs and being against standards if they can prevent standards to make more money they will. Remember that Sony was one of the first making and selling lithium ion batteries to the general public since 1991. How many devices would have existed today if they had done it right from the start? How many battery driven devices do you still own that are from before 1991?
Agreed, the buck converter, if needed, should be in the device, where it can be properly filtered. You can get lithium-ion in 14500 form, which is close to AA. Some even with a button top. Some even with LiFePO4 chemistry. You can replace two 1.5V AAs with one 14500 and a dummy cell, but you have to manually monitor discharge or you'll damage the cell with deep discharge. So "don't try this at home".
Lithium ion got 18650, 26650, 2170 standard for a long time. The problem with lithium ion replaceable battery lithium ion is too good as a battery. It contains so much energy to borderline dangerous. Give it some abuse and it combust spontaneously.
@@KarrasBastomiAll smart phones contain Lithion ion batteries. Several billion around the world. What's more ubiquitous than those? Are you saying cell phones should be banned because their batteries are too good, and therefore, dangerous? Electric toothbrushes and most other rechargeable gadgets all use Lithion ion batteries. So the issue is the device makers. They can very simply make them to still accept the AA size, yet run on 3 to 4V, as opposed to the measly, underpowered 1.5V. That way, they would still be using the same old standard sizes -- AA or AAA. Or they can switch to the 14500 or other form factors. Either way, alkaline will be a thing of the past soon, whether they like it or not. It's time to stop filling dumps with dangerous spent alkaline cells and use recyclable Lithium ion ones.
That was my reaction too. I just wanted the most capacity or energy per cell. I've noticed since though, it's convenient in some situations, like travelling, to not carry a proprietary charger, especially if your battery-powered device only needs one cell. Sorry, I mean a cell-powered device. :)
When you put "cells interlinked" I was expecting a Blade Runner reference, and you did not disappoint. Thanks for the chuckles and a very informative video nonetheless :)
I'm so glad you got it. I was beginning to think it too arcane.
@@on-the-fritz what matters is you do you!
This was very well done. Not long, and quite to the point, in terms of explaining why various applications suit these batteries, and others don't.
Thanks!
Very well done! From an electrical engineer. Glad I discovered your channel and subscribed almost immediately. We can do without all the personal opinions, sales talk and fluff on other RUclips channels.
Thanks for the kind words!
I love finding channels that tell me things I didn't know about things I already know a fair bit about. Instant like and subscribe. Bonus for mentioning Big Clive, he got me watching all these tech/DIY channels on RUclips.
Awesome test series! Never thought of checking for EMI from these rechargeable lithium cells, but it makes sense given the nature of the electronics used to provide the desired voltage from this cell chemistry.
Glad you liked it!
I'm glad you actually tested for EMI noise. It's one of the often-overlooked drawbacks and it's the reason why I advise against any of these lithium-ion AA batteries for specific uses, like audio equipment such as wireless lavalier microphone systems. There's not much space in there and I would imagine it's almost impossible to cram competent filtering in them.
Yes, and the cost of the extra filtering would be significant too.
Thanks for sharing your battery knowledge
You're welcome!
Hi! thank you for this video, I appreciate the very high quality and effort you put into this content, nowadays it is really rare to find this kind of well documented videos, liked and subscribed
Much appreciated!
I find it kind of odd that the roughly 3Wh in the best Li-Ion AA cells is basically the same as what you get from a decent NiMH AA cell. I suppose the sligntly lower voltage of NiMH chemistry could be a factor, but I've yet to find anything that won't run on NiMH cells as they have a slightly higher voltage than the older NiCd chemistry cells.
And NiMH has a low internal resistance-great for photo flashes.
@@on-the-fritz I noticed that with my power-hungry Kodak digital camera back in 2000. A set of 4 alkaline AAs would get chewed up pretty quick (could be used in less intense stuff after), but a set of NiMH cells would last at least three times as long. And the ones I had at the time were only 1300mAh.
Modern alkalines are about half the 1300mAh claimed by your NiMH cells. Have a look: aob.spukhafte.net/?chem=ZnMnO2&form=AA&load=1.0&rank=t&num=5
@@on-the-fritz At a 1A drain, that doesn't surprise me at all. I recall the Alkaline AAs in my camera getting warm. Not quite as warm as my old Tyco Turbo Hopper (the 8AA version before the 9.6V battery pack was a thing), but still warm. I wish I had tried NiMH cells in my Game Boy. It was low drain, but even my 600mAh NiCd AAs lasted all day and then some on a charge.
A well-produced video with helpful and balanced writing that a layperson or the technician will easily understand. Although this video helped answer my research questions, its release feels premature as the website link takes one to an incomplete site. This video and website show great potential, and I hope you launch your RUclips channel and website soon.
It's true; the web site isn't much more than a proof-of-concept right now, but we are busy working on a new video and a web site update with some exciting new features. Both will be released in August. Note: more of the web site is accessible at no charge just by registering your email address (we will not sell or otherwise share your email address).
Thanks for the kind words, the thoughtful feedback and for subscribing.
True, proper electrical engineering validation. Thank you for providing such a well-done analysis, in a concise video with such useful info. You've earned my sub!
You’re most welcome!
Very good, professional test! Respect! I also expect a lot of noise from these tiny DC-DC-converters. I hope getting my order of a set of even smaller 1.5 V converted AAA Lithium batteries delivered soon. So I will do my own investigations with my spectrum analyzer on different loads. Thanks for your inspiration.
Thanks for the kind words! Let us know what you find out.
So if that buck converter is running all the time, what are the self-discharge parameters? One of my biggest gripes about NiMH batteries is that they are pretty much dead after 6 months of storage.
Yes, the buck-converter's always running. In storage it would sleep in discontinuous mode, waking up periodically to maintain output voltage. If it's properly designed it shouldn't add much to the self-discharge you can expect from a lithium-ion cell (2 - 3% according to Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discharge).
Newer NiMH cells claim to have lower self-discharge rates. Eneloop, for example, claims they will have 70% of their charge after 10 years (www.panasonicbatteryproducts.com/eneloop_rechargeable_batteries/eneloop_rechargeable_batteries-aa_4-pack/)
Oh my Lord I had absolutely no idea there were USB rechargeable AA batteries! I've never purchased something so quickly my life I'm truly shocked that somehow I've never seen or heard about anything like that. Thank you so much!
Glad to have helped!
Phenomenal work and a great way of illustrating the limfacs of EMI from these cells. I think cost is one of the primary barriers to entry for these as well since the average consumer looks at initial cost before considering long range utilization as a function of average cost.
Thanks!
Agreed. Most consumers don't take the time to calculate the total cost of ownership.
That was insanely well done. 👍
Thanks!
So for UHF wireless mic disposables are still the best, am I right?
The nickel-zinc rechargeable cells we test in a imminent video might work for you. They are made by EBL and are available on Amazon.com (ASIN B0CFDK5VP2). If you share the make and model of your wireless mic, its user manual might have enough information for us to be more certain.
I have so many questions for someone that understands Electrinics.
But for now. I just bought 8 Hixon 1.5 AA’s then discovered since I have a smart charger with sixteen slots that gave me a grumpy beep when I tried to charge them. Bought the Hixon 4 bay charger.
This is for toys for my sons. I’m terrified they will try to charge regular batteries in the new charger, or lithiums into a cheap ‘energizer’ charger. How strong is the propensity for a thermal runaway fire that nothing but a suffocating wet blanket can even attempt to control. Is it worth it for the extra voltage and lifespan to have both laying around? What happens when my son throws his RC car in the air or drops it from the bomb bay of his drop and snaps a battery in half ( admittedly this would be tough but I never underestimate the destructive capabilities of an experimental toddler )
The recharging of buck-regulated (bucked) lithium cells is not standardized in the industry and we aren't aware of any manufacturers that provide a charging specification. The manufacturers of the cells we tested insist we charge their cells ONLY in their chargers. It's reasonable to expect a properly designed, bucked lithium cell to not be damaged or dangerous when put in a NiMH charger (if that's what your Energizer charger is) and for a NiMH cell to not be damaged when put in a Hixon charger, but unless the manufacturers warrant it in writing, do NOT count on it. Our lawyer's advice: an adult should be in charge (pun intended) of recharging.
Note also that some cells have a low internal resistance and precocious kids could get some entertaining and potentially dangerous pyrotechnics playing with a cell and aluminum foil.
What do these give as an advantage to regular NiMH? I've got a bunch from ikea, 2200mAh, no switching shenanigans. Am I missing the point here?
NiMH batteries output 1.2V, whereas these Lithium ion ones output 1.5V, same as Alkaline batteries.
Also a NiMH cell reduces its voltage as it discharges, whereas the bucked lithium-ion cells hold a constant 1.5V (and constant power) over their entire discharge.
Thankyou. So no good for.night vision camera?
Sorry, there's no definitive answer to your question. Unless a device manufacturer claims compatibility, they probably didn't increase design time and parts cost to filter out the EMI noise of rechargeable lithium-ion cells/batteries. EMI noise *might* cause interference in electronic circuitry, especially, in your case, the sensitive analog circuitry of an image-intensification camera. So it depends on your use-case. Unreliable equipment is tolerable if you're hunting wild hogs, but not if you're on a Seal Team Six mission.
Generally speaking, rechargeable lithium-ion cells/batteries are suitable for simple devices with mechanical switches, motors, heaters, LEDs, etc., but even then, they *might* cause interference in nearby sensitive equipment.
@@on-the-fritz wow. Thankyou. I had already made a purchase of rechargeable NiMH batteries based on this video and the comments of others here. Thanks for your informative and prompt response. God bless
Good choice. In our next video we'll talk about NiMH, which have about twice the energy of alkaline cells. They run about 0.3V lower than alkaline though.
Glad to have watched this video. For now I am only using the lithium aaa batteries for my safe control panel. Seems to be good so far
An electronic lock typically doesn't have any analog or radio circuitry and shouldn't be sensitive to EMI. Keep in mind lithium-ion has a higher self-discharge rate than alkaline (ZnMnO2) or disposable lithium (LiFeS2).
2 out of 12 of HH AAA cells had early fail of tiny switch chip. The naked cells are as big as possible for AHs
We too had some out-of-box failures in our sample of lithium-ion cells.
What is “HH” short for?
@@on-the-fritz H xon brand.
Luckily most things that I have come across that utilize AA or AAA batteries are disappearing. Nowadays I only see them in remote controls, wireless keyboards and mice. I use disposable batteries in those since they tend to last multiple years and I don't believe the environmental impact is significantly less when I use rechargables. Of course I properly dispose of them and not put them in the trash.
On a recent trip, it occurred to me removable lithium-ion batteries and cells have an advantage when flying: you can check-in the device they power and carry the batteries in your carry-on, per TSA rules. Devices that take standard AA or AAA tend to be inexpensive enough to risk checking in.
My biggest problem with rechargable batteries is their self-discharge performance. Take a battery-powered clock - a NiMH battery lasts about six months before it needs to be changed because it is self discharging faster than the power required by the clock. An alkaline battery will easily last over a year.
Newer NiMH claim to have low self-discharge rates. Panasonic claims their Eneloop cells will have 70% of their charge after 10 years (www.panasonicbatteryproducts.com/eneloop_rechargeable_batteries/eneloop_rechargeable_batteries-aa_4-pack/)
very professionally made content, thank you.
However, a typical use case for these types of batteries would be nowhere near 1A load. As you mentioned, the capacity of all of these is likely much higher if measured at a lighter load. Does this mean that Hixon J818 is still a winner in a typical scenario or should I consider Kentli instead, for example? Unfortunately it seems to be impossible to tell without some additional testing.
You can expect an increase in tested capacity at lighter loads, just because it takes longer to reach the cutoff voltage when there's less of a voltage drop across the cell's internal resistance. It's anybody's guess how buck converter efficiency changes with load current. So you are correct, more tests are needed to be certain, but we'd be surprised if rankings change at lower load currents.
We are currently scrambling to get our next video uploaded and an update to the web site released, but we'll add 500mA load tests for a selection of cells to our to-do list.
Thanks for your kind words, your interest and the suggestion.
@@on-the-fritz That's awesome that 500mA tests are coming. One other thing that occurred to me after reading some reviews from those who have purchased the various batteries on your list is that some early/random failures had to do with 'failure to charge'. I'm not sure if this means that architectures that have only discharge circuitry have a better chance of avoiding such failures and my personal experience is limited to using one aaa kentli in my razor (which still works after 8+ years of use). I've ordered 4 AAs now to give them a test. 10 years later i'll know if that was a good idea :)
We like that a Kentli cell isn't burdened with discharge circuitry and its three contact design, which (if our guesses are correct), would allow a battery-powered device to optionally bypass the buck-regulator and tap the lithium-ion cell directly. We've seen some failures in our sample of buck-regulated cells, but didn't have the time to determine exactly what failed.
We had some lab time to perform 500mA discharge tests on four samples of each of four make/models, but don't want to upload results, because the production web site hasn't yet been tested to present more than one current per make/model. Meanwhile, here are the average discharge energies (in watt-hours):
Manufacturer / Model, 500mA, 1A, %
XTAR / 2500mAh, 3.208, 2.824, 13.6%
Hixon / J818, 3.149, 2.793, 12.7%
EBL / 3000mWh, 2.628, 2.283, 15.1%
Kentli / PH5, 2.555, 2.123, 20.3%
Summary
The buck-converters in these cells are 13 - 20 % more efficient at 500mA compared to 1A. Note that the ranking doesn't change with load current. In theory, you could cut 'n paste the above into a CSV file for import and better readability in a spreadsheet.
@@on-the-fritz Thank you very much!
Super detailed and informative
Thanks!
Learned something new! Didn't know about buck convertor inside these cells (makes sense now that i think of it).
Would it be difficult to modify a tool to accept batteries like this? Could be an interesting video 😊 .
I assume a small in series impedance would do the trick for the switching frequencies in the mhz range?
Something like a ferrite would help, but it would have to be effective at the fundamental and harmonics of the switching frequency (harmonics probably extend far above the upper limit of the CISPR 22 test), while conducting a heavy (relative to the RF noise) DC current. Whatever Apple did in the A1385 works well. Maybe a designer of switching supplies will weigh in?
Amazing testing!!!
Thanks!
Great video ... I was planning to buy some of the for my future wireless mics ... but looks like it's a bad idea :D
You're correct. We don't recommend buck-regulated cells in wireless devices because the noise they make can intermodulate with the oscillators in digital circuitry to create interference all over the RF and audio spectrums.
@@on-the-fritz I wonder if it makes a difference if the mic transmissions system is digital (not analogue). Maybe I would give a try and buy 4 of such to see how they work with that particular device :D
Buck-regulators operate well above audio frequencies in continuous mode, but in discontinuous mode (at low load currents), they might be audible. Don't use them in devices that process RF or low level signals!
Would a video explaining intermodulation be of interest?
Unfortunately there isn't a lot of reliable data on Ni-Zn. They might be okay if discharged consistently and recharged regularly (ie don't rely on the device to notify of low battery level). They are certainly cheaper than disposable and make no EMI noise.
Hello!
Thank you for these videos very informative. Especially the part about EMI, I was unaware.
I am a professional sound mixer using a lot of wireless mics. Of the brands you have tested are many I use. LADDAS, Xtar and eneloops.
You say not to use any of these batteries in highly sensitive electronics like wireless mics. So my question is what should I use then? I currently run Lectrosonics wireless in my kit.
Lectrosonics makes nice gear! We'll contact their support department and ask.
Meanwhile, can you share which model you use and how long the mic has to run between charges?
@ well I use LADDA’s in an HMa for example and get about 7 hours run time
Very interesting test, thanks.
Glad you liked it!
Great content, thank you!😊
Glad you liked it!
The only bad thing about your charts on yourSit3, is that your price point chart seems to only be for non-chargeable.. I was hoping you had it for the li-ion rechargeables.
We’d like to do a price point chart for rechargeables, but we’ll need a few more patrons to afford it! To do it properly, we’d have to test cycle life by charging and discharging cells until they only held 80% of their original charge, then divide their cost by the total energy they were able to transfer from charger to load over their entire cycle life. We’d have to buy or custom build a test jig that charges and discharges the hundred or so samples we’ve got at a controlled ambient temperature. Stay tuned…
@@on-the-fritz Looking forward to it. in the meantime, I grabbed some of the "pujimax" 3400 mWh (light blue with white writing). They are by far the ch3apest rechargeable li-ion; (with only slightly less performance rating). I can get them for two bucks each when I order 20.. (or 8 - $19). Most of the others are closer to 40 for 8, or even more.. I read enough decent revi3ws about these that it's worth using them at that pric3.
@@on-the-fritz Looking forward to it. Make sure you put 'puj^max 3400mWh" on the list (light blue with white writing). They were the cheapest I've found for price/performance (at least on paper). I'd like to see how they test..
We're talking about the EBL 3500mWh disposable lithium cells (ASIN: B0CY213G71), right?
@@on-the-fritz No.. It's puj^max 3400mWh.. (My ^ symbol = i ) .. I can't spell it out, because it will auto d3lete. They are on fl333bay and scAmaozn... Lithium rechargeable.
Wow. Nice test. I wish I could buy these brands but these are not available in Europe.
Btw, this is the first comment of the first video, yay!
Yes, you're the first of the first.
You should be able to get lithium-ion AA cells in Europe. I'm sure Aliexpress would ship to the EU and I know the Hixon cells are available on Amazon.de.
Thanks for watching!
At first a ISB jack on a cell may appear to he a smart solution for chargin3. That concept loses its appeal when multiple cells need to be charged. Then a multiport USB power source is required and multiple USB cables. This may be more of a.pain than forking over a few buckazoids for a multi-cell charger.
That's right. The best solution depends on the application.
Very nice . I have had trouble with them Li-Ion 1.5V rechargeables because of noise from electronics . I found a fix and works in some electronics just fine . AA is about 14500 size. So I found 14500 LiFePo4 3.2V cell this has no electronics. So on a 3V system use 1 dummy cell . or re wire batt holder to parrallo . Also some electronics can use 3.7V cells. witch is just .7V higher than 2 -1.5V cells. LFP cells 3.2V offer much better cycle life. There is some Nickel Zinc 1.6V rechargeable on the market but have poor cycle life but better than the rechargeable alkaline manganese (RAM) type. I am finding that modern electronics is using standard 18650 type cells now. The older AAA/AA/C/D are fading away in new devices . And for remote controller they are switching to coin cells and you can get rechargeable ones as well.
Yes, that's a good solution if your device takes an even number of cells. You have to be careful you don't damage the LiFePO4 by discharging below its cutoff voltage though. We cover this in our next video.
Note you can get LiFePO4 in AA form too: www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005870958670.html
The whole idea to make lithium-ion 3.7V/Cell compatible with the typical 1.5V/Cell is stupid. The only way to make this problem go away is to introduce new standard sizes/shapes for lithium-ion cells that are just replaceable without the need for buck converters. The problem is that no hard case universal models that are vendor independent standardized exist. If something like that exists, slowly but surely more vendors would make new appliances with this new standard and the old one would fade over time. Yes that will take many years, but lithium-ion already exists long enough. If they would have done this from the start it would not been a problem today. It's just companies trying to keep market with propriety designs and being against standards if they can prevent standards to make more money they will. Remember that Sony was one of the first making and selling lithium ion batteries to the general public since 1991. How many devices would have existed today if they had done it right from the start? How many battery driven devices do you still own that are from before 1991?
Agreed, the buck converter, if needed, should be in the device, where it can be properly filtered.
You can get lithium-ion in 14500 form, which is close to AA. Some even with a button top. Some even with LiFePO4 chemistry. You can replace two 1.5V AAs with one 14500 and a dummy cell, but you have to manually monitor discharge or you'll damage the cell with deep discharge. So "don't try this at home".
Lithium ion got 18650, 26650, 2170 standard for a long time. The problem with lithium ion replaceable battery lithium ion is too good as a battery. It contains so much energy to borderline dangerous. Give it some abuse and it combust spontaneously.
@@KarrasBastomiAll smart phones contain Lithion ion batteries. Several billion around the world. What's more ubiquitous than those? Are you saying cell phones should be banned because their batteries are too good, and therefore, dangerous? Electric toothbrushes and most other rechargeable gadgets all use Lithion ion batteries.
So the issue is the device makers. They can very simply make them to still accept the AA size, yet run on 3 to 4V, as opposed to the measly, underpowered 1.5V. That way, they would still be using the same old standard sizes -- AA or AAA. Or they can switch to the 14500 or other form factors.
Either way, alkaline will be a thing of the past soon, whether they like it or not. It's time to stop filling dumps with dangerous spent alkaline cells and use recyclable Lithium ion ones.
I definitely won't be buying any of these to put in a wireless game controller, then.
Correct-unless the manufacturer of the controller specifies their product works with buck-regulated cells.
I thought you have 201k subs ... not 201 ... wth?
201k subs would be glorious!
@@on-the-fritz You gonna get there eventually with such a great content.
Thanks for the kind words!
Why on Earth would anyone buy batteries with USB sockets.
Oh I'm sorry, cells.
That was my reaction too. I just wanted the most capacity or energy per cell. I've noticed since though, it's convenient in some situations, like travelling, to not carry a proprietary charger, especially if your battery-powered device only needs one cell.
Sorry, I mean a cell-powered device. :)