Ranger is just the worst class though. Not the revised. The revised is better. But the orignal 5e Ranger got seriously nerfed after how amazing it was in 4e. A dual wielding ranger in 4e was by far the best striker around.
Cavalier has an identity crisis - the name, and the mount feature, imply that it's a mounted combat based class, but if you look at literally every other feature it has, it's a fantastic infantry defender. You really shouldn't be playing it mounted in the first place.
"We need a healer, tank, striker, and controller" No you don't, that is a balanced party composition. The worst party composition wouldn't be balanced.
Oh yeah, a full party of Abserd's, yes I did spell that name correctly, if you are curious google him, you will probably both regret it and get a laugh at the same time :)
@@TheNowerianRaven Driebus Beestinger is the best ridiculous multiclass joke simply by virtue that he had talked about his history with various classes but (likely because it was such a low combat adventure) everyone else at the table seemed to not know or forgot what his classes were until he raged, sneak-attacked, and divine smited in the same turn. I don't think he needs an ongoing career, but it was a hell of a punchline for his guest spot.
how about a RP take on it. One illiterate, headstrong, blindly faithfull Paladin and 4 Barbarians who have declared him their War chief and sworn their lives to his after he saved them. Also One of the barbarian fancies himself a sneaky thief and he's bad at it and always leaves a trail back to the group, but never gets caught directly. May the fun/horror ensue.
A barbarian that thinks he is a cleric, if the person he heals dies they were evil (insert punching as healing method.) a wizard that fancies himself a tank without the defensive spells (This is based off of something that happened in one of my games...), a kleptomaniac bard who is just charismatic enough to get the enemy to believe he didn't steal their booze but in fact it was the barbarian healer that did it, and a pyromaniac paladin. The wizard thing is based off of the time when my group encountered a centaur for the first time.. It noticed them before they noticed it, started a charge, the wizard is the only one that passed the check to see it in time and proceeded to push the heavily armored paladin out of the way only to get impaled to a tree...
Try the story of That Guy: The all barbarian party. 6ish barbarians, only one of them can read. They ignore all the plot hooks because they keep burning all the notes or killing all the npcs that would clue them in that something greater is going on. All in all, they did very well.
From a roleplaying standpoint, this party seems pretty epic. Trickery Domain Cleric Purple Dragon Knight Way of The Four Elements Monk Pact of The Blade Warlock Blade Singer Wizard
@@dnddude9652 Ah nice. just watch out from damage from dragon breath and such. because those don't count as spells. Also shield master might be nice with it, if you want to get really extreme.
Just one note as Warlock, according to Jeremy Crawford, Agonizing Blast applies the charisma bonus to EACH beam of Eldritch Blast. So 2 beams is 2 times that Charisma Modifier is applied as bonus damage.
Yup, and it's worth noting that Agonizing Blast also stacks with other Invocation effects: www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/21/can-agonizing-blast-repelling-blast-stack/ Once you get to level 5 and have access to multiple beams that means you have the chance to do 2D10 + double your Charisma mod, plus a 20ft knock back every single round just using a cantrip; not something to be sneezed at. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why Warlocks are one of the weaker classes in 5e, but Eldritch Blast isn't one of them.
Correct I was incorrect. I originally played that way and read something from the wizards team or thought I did saying the once per turn per enemy thing. Oops! Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy It's easily done. I would concede that even the PHB descriptions of how invocation effects work with Eldritch Blast are open to a degree of interpretation, especially with regard to stacking and combining of the various effects.
"Do we have a bad rogue?" "No. We don't" Made me chuckle because the rogue base class is so good that you can't go wrong with any of the subclasses. My fave class by far.
Yeah, when it comes to Rogues & "being bad", it really comes down 2 things: Either the Player is bad or the Dice Rolls that session decided to a *bleep*
I actually would like a party composed of all of these choices and would base the story around the fact that they're kind of resentful about being considered the "B" Team and always get the worst choices of adventure vs another NPC party in the same city. Then the other party would even start "stealing" their kills by showing up 1 round before the Dragon goes down and share the glory without any of the hassle, etc. Would be pretty fun to intentionally taunt the sub-optimal PCs to get them to be truly heroic or ultimate villainous force depending on where they end up taking out their frustrations.
Was disappointed based on the video title. This video is about what are the worst classes, not party composition. Thought based on title they would discuss party composition, as in how classes fit together
Well, strong party composition is based on variety. The more variery the more situations you can tackle. So I think the worse one would simply be 5 Purple Dragon Knights, 5 Pact of Blade Warlocks, or 5 Bladesinger Wizards. No variety, and what you do have sucks.
Either Gnome or Kobold Berserkers only. Any kind of spellcaster still has spells and can thus find other ways to play. These guys can literally only run at the enemy, screaming and waving giant weapons except they can't because they are too small for giant weapons. Kobolds get 1 extra dexterity while loosing 2 strength, so I think they would be the weaker of the two. I'd probably just play a dex barb and go two weapon fighting, thus making the last sole point of a Berserker invalid :D
@@hieronymusnervig8712 I think it depends what level you start at. Casters have traditionally been dogshit at lower levels. I feel like 5 Barbarians would do better than 5 Bladesingers (although maybe not if the Barbarians are Kobold) at lower level as they tend to do very well early on. Or at least thats in my experience.
@@nicholascastellano5909 You probably fall behind a little bit in AC and HP but you get stuff like Magic Missile or Invisibility to make up for it. If your DM just throws you into combat like "Hey, 6 Bandits just suddenly show up and attack you" then spellcasters are clearly worse. But as once you can RP encounters or you come across magic the spellcasters will outshine the barbs in every other aspect. Personally I think these gish builds are much worse before they get their subclass, are then about equal for levels 3-5 and then start to outclass the barbarians because now both have double attacks but one of them has spells and the other doesn't. Also at level 2 bladesingers gain their own mini rage (and kobold barbs can't even use theirs decently) and warlocks are always useful because eldritch blast.
My first Character was an Ancients Paladin. Thought he was really strong. DM thought he was strong. But I keep getting told they suck...i guess I just played really smart
@@MrIzzy5466 I think they don't suck at all. Their subclass features and spell list is weaker than the Vengeance one, but on par with the Devotion one and certainly better than the Crown one. And there is their anti-magic aura that makes all other Paladin's auras cry at night about themselves.
They are arguably the best mounted class due to this alone. AOE magic resistance and bonuses to saves combined with Mounted Combatant means that the mount is going to be making all saves with evasion and your Cha bonus as well as double resistance in a way (evasion for the half damage on a failed save, then resistance to that damage for 1/4th the actual damage). Having a frontline that is resistant to all magic damage as well as bonuses to all saves means your team is just not going to die. Have a monk in the party? They are going to be getting something like a +9-10 to their Dex saves at higher levels as well as the already mentioned double resistance. It is incredibly difficult to deal with a party that has Oath of the Ancients as the Paladin is effectively almost giving an entire feat to everyone within 10 ft. Ancient Paladins do not need their channel divinity and I was incredibly surprised when they mentioned how weak it was. Why complain about that channel divinity when the Conquest Paladin's level 7 ability is the measly half your Paladin level in psychic damage but only when it is frightened of YOU specifically, not frightened in general? Personally, I feel that that ability alone makes Ancient Paladins incredibly powerful. Resistance to all magical damage is arguably one of the strongest abilities in the game. So many enemies rely on magic damage to dish out the big numbers. Plus, it is incredibly hard to come by. Very few abilities (even up to level 20) give out spell resistance (something they even mentioned as being incredibly useful for the Pact of the Chain Warlock) and they get it at level 7. Monks don't get magical damage until the level before this one (besides the anime Monks).
Unless its errata (I'd love to see a link) you're wrong about Agonizing blast... the text clearly reads its for every hit, and it works like a weapon attack would, and Jeremy Crawford said it worked that way a while back.
That had me reaching for the PHB too, as I have always assumed that invocations which alter the mechanics of Eldritch Blast were stackable. The RAW per the handbook seems pretty clear cut: 'When you cast Eldritch Blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit. ' Nothing about one hit on a creature per round. Glad to see it confirmed as working in this manner by Jeremy Crawford.
Yeah I'm unsure of where they got that idea, and the claim that Warlock is the worst class when the ranger exists and the fact that they completely ignored what makes the Warlock actually good (even without the whole "having a DM that allows short rests to be a good idea"), namely the powerful invocations that let you cast spells without using spell slots. And they clearly undervalued what is probably the best cantrip in the game, which functions like a melee weapon does, with comperable damage (if not more, especially since its force damage) at a range. But you dont even need agonizing strike- or even elderitch blast. Spam false life and a permanent mage armor on yourself? That turns you into one of the strongest early level fighters in the game. Hell, go pact of the tome and grab that druid cantrip that turns sticks into magic martial weapons that let you use Charisma as your modifier and green flame blade and you dont NEED elderitch blast. They also regularly undervalue the sorcerrer, which despite its limitations can be game breaking (twinned spell is absolutely insane, it doubles some spell slots!! sorc is bad if you dont take the right spells, like charm person or hold person ect.) It seems to me they have a very biased view based on a simplistic reading of these classes. Anyway, the absurdity of this exersize is plain- they didnt create the worst party, they selected their least favorite/"weakest" subclasses when they could just throw out (assuming a 4 man party) 4 rangers, or really, 4 of any single class. 4 barbarians would get destroyed past level 3. 4 wizards would die at level 1.
@@Nerdarchy indeed. No worries. Just a passionate Warlock enthusiast. Palocks and Sorclocks are a blast, fyi. The later is more pure cheese (infinite spell slot storage if you never take a long rest, its cheap, silly, and hilarious)
Bladesingers with the ac bonus, mirror image, concentration bonus, the shield spell, 2 attacks, and shadow blade up casted to level 3 or 5 can totally hang in melee especially with war caster and mobile.
I have a power game that is so hard to figth since the uslaly gets to insane hace iwht mage harmor bald song and shield I cant hiot him and dex save are easy for this +5 dex
...warlocks get at-will silent image at lvl2... if you cant do great things with that then you need to get more creative. On top of that, there are plenty of at-will invocations -- detect magic, disguise self, levitate, invisibility off the top of my head. Some of those are rituals, but you dont have to sit 10min there (maybe you dont have 10min to wait around in that room of the evil wizarss lab before he gets back) They can get 9+ casts at 5th level without burning higher slots (yes, it means the party takes two short rests.. but healing by hitdice is also a thing) Warlocks also can learn and use all rituals in the game with Book of Ancient Secrets... I dont like blaming players... but warlocks aren't boring -- sometimes boring players roll a warlock.
Permanent free mage armor or spammable false life anyone???? Compensate by stealing ritual casting, the wizards best feature, from them and not being a class that dies to an errant pebble? Like christ, they seriously dont know what they're talking about with some of these. The one on agonizing blast not working per-hit seems strait homeruled as both the core rules and crawfords twitter said each hit adds the cha modifier.
Theres no universe where the warlock is worse than the ranger and the ranger is STILL better than they think the warlock is. They also dont seem to understand what makes a gish good??? Valor bard sure, but the wizard gish subclass is one of the most min-maxy things in the game aside from like sorcadins or palocks, or my favorite sorcadinlocks
Celestial warlock with pact of the chain. You can get an invocation that maximises all healing on you as long as your familiar is within 100 feet of you
I have DMd for a bladesinger and I actually thought it was really strong. Their small hit dice don't really matter because their AC ends up so high if they're built properly that nothing is ever going to hit them while they're bladesinging.
The problem becomes when they do get hit. Either it was a crit or the baddies are hitting really hard. Also makes those concentration checks harder to make. Which really sucks when you are hasted. Just finished playing gish which regularly got his AC up to 33. HP were always the problem even with 6 fighter levels and a high con. Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy The Bladesinger is insanely powerful if you simply don't wade into melee. They're a full-fledged wizard that can shore up their only real weakness at will.
@@GlacialScion the other problem is your subclass abilities going towards making you good at something that you aren't. For these reasons I consider it mechanically weaker. Now that doesn't mean it isn't fun or thematic. Nor would I ever say you shouldn't play one. My mountain dwarf war wizard eldritch knight suffered from the same thing and I'm sure he had way more hp than an elf. Doesn't make me like that character any less. I just know what his short comings are. Nerdarchist Dave
5 Bladesinger Wizards built properly should not be touched with all the control spells at there hands and at level 9 ac 23 then shield to 28 makes it hard for me to get hit, at 10 if shield won't save me sack a spell slot for temp hp against the attack 5x spell level. Spells aren't just for damage but if I lock down half the battle field hypnotic pattern, hold person/monster then pick off the opponents as we fancy.
@@matthewfarrell8233 the problem with wizards is, they're paper tigers when it comes to combat. their potential is great, you throw out the example of hypnotic pattern, hold person etc... however, those end up failing as often as they succeed. what does success mean in this example? success means probably overcoming the encounter, and living to fight another day. what does failure mean? certain death. so you have a 50% chance of doing something cool and living to fight another day, or a 50% chance of being reduced to a grease spot. thus, a party full of bladesingers? very good chance they dont make it out of the first session, most probably last 2 or 3 sessions. i believe bladesinger is actually the strongest subclass in wizard. as long as you keep moving! you can't stand up there in melee, you're in and out. you are controlling the battlefield not only with your spells, but with your movement. but, you need a solid, balanced, party with people in your group who know what they're doing as well. plus there is still a lot of skill involved with successfully playing a bladesinger. not everyone can do it. so, with that said, i like the bladesinger, but there are a handful of other classes that execute their role in combat much better, and some that also do it more efficiently and effortlessly.
@@herogibson Thats pretty fair, That being said, if there were 5 bladesingers, they each have the 50% chance to succeed at the spell. so Two cast hold person, one fails the other succeeds, the rest then auto critical the target. But more likely, if the party has 5 bladesingers, they'll rotate who is on melee duty and who is on control duty. The real issue the group will have is a lack of healing.
@@blindhamsterman1 well. now you're talkin almost expert level players who are all in love with the strategy of combat, and whom have been together for a long time. this is like a unicorn group =(
@@herogibson ive played with the same group of players across various games for about a decade :D Usually if we're not working tactically well together it's because we're roleplaying a group that aren't used to eachother yet!
"When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit." How do you guys conclude that Agonizing blast only adds Charisma damage once to each target? Even Jeremy Crawford confirmed: "Agonizing Blast applies every time eldritch blast hits." in a tweet
Eh guys, the agonizing blast hits every hit of the Eldritch Blast. Sage advice confirmed that. Apart from that, the worst party composition is a chaotic rogue, lawful neutral/evil paladin, any chaotic barbarian, any lawful cleric and evil wizard/sorcerer. The RP alone will destroy the party.
You're wrong on Agonizing Blast. "When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit." That's every time your eldritch blast hits a creature. Not just once per creature, not just once per turn, each time it hits you add your CHA mod.
Yeah, it’s *EVERY SINGLE TIME...* If Agonising blast was once per round, then the additional Str or Dex damage for other weapons would *ALSO* be once per round...
@@dnddude9652 but it is, A basic character with no combat abilities other than the ability to attack with 2 weapons separately in a turn, Will only add the modifier to their main hand weapon.
@@dnddude9652 I'm just presenting an argument As to why it wouldn't be weird to apply similar logic to Eldrich Blast. In the end I don't care what the rule is, I just saw a hole in the argument That could use some more cover.
@@PrimordialAnnihilator Hah indeed. Tho i think Treantmonk makes stronger argument in trickery cleric case, cuz in valor bard case you can just dip in some class that will give you that armor and shield proficiency, while you have to go pretty deep in other class to get these sweet sweet trickery domain spells. That is if the table allows multiclassing.
Weakest for a super strong class. All the domains that rely heavily on channel divinity suffer from this. Also remember we are setting the bar at life cleric. Nerdarchist Dave
Is funny how the misconceptions for both trickery cleric and the valor bard can make people not see how strong they really are with the spells they have access too and things they actually do compared to what others think
@@awesomecow7264 I think that might be because the idea the subclasses give off initially doesn't coincide with their actual gameplay style and it makes people think they're weaker than they actually are. To that avail, at least the college of blades offers a better alternative to a true "battle bard", but I think Valor is more fun to roleplay, almost like a drummer boy during a war or something.
i wouldn't say "insanely powerful." powerful? sure. but they take more skill than the other wizards, in order to execute properly. you need a minimum of 3 good stats, compared to other wizards only needing 1. its more expensive and time consuming for them to learn new spells. and, even if you're on your shit at all times (which is what it takes for a bladesinger), when (not if, but when!) you take a bad beat, or the dice dont like you that day, you won't just fail at what you're doing. you're probably going to die. compare that to other wizards, who are nowhere near melee 99% of the time, bad day for them everything saves out of their spells. big whoop. so, powerful? yeah. but they were absolutely right to put bladesinger down if they're picking a "worst" subclass of wizard. i personally love it, and ive gotten pretty good at it. but, lets call a spade a spade here.
@@herogibson I disagree, the tradeoff of going bladesinger is really negligible in exchange for getting one of highest AC's in the game, vastly improved concentration, a lifesaving reaction, and a plan B against anything immune to magic so you don't become the world's worst fist fighter when faced against a rakshasa. Compare these bonuses to the transmuter, necromancer, and conjurer. You don't have to fight in melee even, for all of these bonuses you don't give up any versatility that the base wizard has. Also for the record, it's a woefully inept dm that allows a wizard to cast from a 100' away with impunity. There's innumerable things in the monster manual that can force a wizard into melee, maybe then they'll wish they had a better AC and a backup reaction when a +5 shield won't cut it.
Since none of the comments I got to while scrolling mentioned it, maybe it's just me, but I've always considered Oath of Ancients to be the most powerful Paladin subclass. For anyone who disagrees, and is asking why, I direct you to Aura of Warding. Resistance to damage from spells. Not fire spells, not lightning spells, spells, full stop. Add in the Aura of Protection that all Paladins have, and your party becomes nigh immune to AoE spells(up to the aura range, obviously). "Oh, look, they grouped up so I can Fireball them. Nice." Party takes an average of 6 damage from Fireball and laughs at the caster before brutally retaliating. :D Also, while I agree that Beast Mastery is the weakest Ranger, it's super fun to constantly attack with advantage, and if you grab a wolf, you also have a sweet guard for those long rests. :)
I tend to agree about Ancient Paladin's aura. As i said in another comment this aura makes all other auras cry at night about themselves. And we're not the only ones to think that. The Giant in the Playground forum is full of people who think the Ancient is the best Paladin for this specific reason.
As an OotA pally main. I have to concur. Aura of warding basically breaks the campaign. The DM can basically no longer have spellcaster encounters. Also misty step is misty step. I think these guys are putting way too much favor in the channel divinities.
Agonizing Blast Does work on every beam. It works like Scorching Ray in which you roll for every beam. The damage is added every time you roll. "Agonizing Blast Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit." You make an attack roll for every beam. "The spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher levels: two beams at 5th level, three beams at 11th level, and four beams at 17th level. You can direct the beams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each beam." It's a . before "Make a separate attack roll for each beam." Meaning you don't roll per different attack on different targets. It's a poorly worded way to say. "You create three rays of fire and hurl them at targets within range. You can hurl them at one target or several. Make a ranged spell attack for each ray. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 fire damage." People are not using Agonizing blast wrong. That is how it's meant to be used and it is how it is written. There is some vague rules but this is clear cut and I will challenge any dm that feels like this is a ruling that they have to make, or assume how it should go. It's damage boost per hit. Because each roll is different and you can miss with some rolls and hit with others. It's how it works. Both Lance of Lethargy and Grasp of Hadar state once per turn, on hit. Meaning if you hit more then once per round, it only takes effect once. How ever Repelling Blast does not state this. Meaning you can't pull more or slow down more then 10 feet a round. Yet you can push as many times as your beams hit. So unless it says other wise, on hit means per die roll hit. I know some dms much rather have single roll attacks to single targets but makes the damage a little wild compared to a steady bell curve then per roll.
Pact of the blade boon is good with Hex blade. Other wise a little weak. How ever it lets you make any weapon you are prof in and with Hex that is all weapons. As well as the base attack when not getting any bonus to hit, does make attacks magical. So you summon any weapon from your ass, OR you can bond with a magic weapon. You don't have to bond with a non magical weapon to bond with it because you in fact cant. You just make them. With the bonus of magic damage and you can not hold your weapon for a minute. Meaning you can make a weapon then give it to your fighters if your dm is running a low magical items campaign. How ever, many bonuses you can get for pact of the blade only work for you. So read the wording closely when getting buffs when giving it to allies.
@Alistair Bolden I will admit when I first posted this at lest a year ago, I was vary new like a few months of playing and saw how week warlock was compared to a pure damage out put compared to the Wizard or a paladin and taking away the cha bonus on more then one hit just makes that gap larger even if I now know Warlock is one of the better muti dip classes there is. I did at first over look the word A, implying just a single hit would count. Yet when I noticed this a while ago. It felt weird due to nearly all hit in effects will state. "Once per turn" Or it will say "Once per attack,hit" When it comes to Pally smites they are per hit. Blade's bard's wording is. "if a weapon attack that you make as part of this action hits a creature, you can use one of the following Blade Flourish options of your choice. You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn." You have 3 different kinds of Flourishes meaning if you want to use each one you have to hit 3 times. I'm ignoring the clear argument of if it's one per hit or once per attack action. The problem is I failed to find any on hit text ever stated "A hit" Low key making me feel like it was a typo because rules as written would mean, you get one bonus per attack action with Eb. So as written, you are right. How ever I wanted to see if it was intended. So after checking well. www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/17/does-warlock-agonizing-blast-add-his-cha-mod-once-no-matter-how-many-blasts-they-have/ Sage Advice states it gives the CHA on every hit. So as written you are right, yet from what Sage advice stays it's a typo and it's intended to per per beam. Seeing how each beam is rolled as it's own attack as an action. AKA I threat EB past 5 as getting muti attack and I threat rules for muti attack the same for beam spells. For clear reasons you can't twin it but that would be me ranting about Sorc/locks trying to pay 1 point instead of 2.
@Alistair Bolden TL:DR as Written you are right, as intended, it's a typo with both my lack of finding on hits having the wording "A hit" Also after checking Sage advice with Jeremy Crawford who stated it was meant to be for ever beam hit. If it was meant to be less it would say "Once per turn, or once per attack action" like E-smite stats
Yeah, every time I think about making one of these, I keep looking at their abilities and wonder if I'm just missing something? Because they seem really, really underwhelming.
Burly D I am a fan of undying warlock it gives me a passive resistance to undead hordes I have spare the dying to help my healer out some and the best part at the right level I live longer and do not need to eat or sleep so I can stay up and keep lookout.
Depends on the campaign. I let my players know what sort of problems and monsters they would likely encounter in my campaign, and knowing that undead would be a problem one of my players rolled a UD warlock. He's having a great time watching everyone else around him take hits that he should have suffered :D
Personally I like the Hexblade/pact of the blade warlock. I'm not completely useless after those 2 spell slots go out besides eldritch blast. Not to mention, that hex curse can do some damage with some spell slots. Hex curse plus Witch bolt = 10 rounds of guaranteed buffed damage. Cast that at a higher level and you become a damage hose if your party can agro manage properly
Glad I found this video. Next game I host, I am going to limit my players to this list and see if they can still hit at 200% their challenge rating consistently.
One of your best videos yet honestly. I really love listening to you two talk about your thoughts on gaming, that's always been one of my favorite things about hanging out with my friends around the table before game or after and talking about different concepts and ideas. Thanks for making my day a little brighter guys, you are awesome!
I'm such an A-hole apparently, lol. I always try to make a character using most of these "bad" options...plus I take un-optimized races too: high elf-barbarian, halforc-rogue, gnome-ranger etc....
Okay, so me and my buddies had a more or less joke one shot, where we had 7 people our 4 core players, and then my girlfriend and another one of our girlfriends, and so we all made the most impractical characters possible, it was great fun
I do the same and each time I have so much fun. I'm currently playing a Drow Cleric of Life, and I choose Pelor as a deity. No one can stop me from blinding ennemies, and myself ! (Jk on them, I have sunglasses.)
I started my first game of dnd with a rogue who served as our closest thing to a tank and a wildmage who seemed to be more excited to get into melee combat than spell casting. Meanwhile I was just an archfey worshipping warlock who stayed in the back casting eldrich blast, hex, or sleep all the time. I think that party was pretty terrible, especially since the other two were murderhobos in a very story-driven campaign.
You're not wrong. It's just that the guys in this video are discussing character builds, not concepts of how you would roleplayna class. Now if the Rogue took a level of Monk, you might have something self-conflicting. The Rogue-Monk would have to choose between fighting armed and not being able to use her unarmed Monk abilties or being unarmed and not being able to Sneak Attack.
Congrats, you built a party of roguish characters and a charisma fighter that you can play as a disenfranchised rogue, as well. They are squishy in melee? Will it matter? Are they going to be in bad melees? Or are they always going to have advantage via trickery, stealth and pure charismatic might? Don't they also cover each other's weaknesses? A fighter that gives healing and a wizard that can hit a goblin with a sword when stuck in melee? Sign me up for this party and give us 2 npcs, so we can be the new Magnificent Seven.
It's actually pretty difficult to make a bad party in 5e you can even make a sorta balanced party of all one class (like cleric), unless multiple people play a pretty narrow subclass, like 5 Berserkers, but that's a boring video. Insted they showed how to fill all the necessary rolls in the lest optimal way. I don't agree with all their choices, but I think it's a fun idea.
You're wrong about Agonizing Blast by the way. "When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit. " Where does it say it is only once per round, once per target?
If you play a four elements monk and only pick the passive abilities that buff your basic class features without cost, then you can play a monk that does all the basic stuff better than all others, a super monk as you will. I did that and it was pretty fun, but still no Kensai or open hand.
Thesubscriber Withnothingtodo Such as? The only one I see that doesn’t have a cost is elemental attunement, which isn’t going to do much for you in a fight.
Sky Kirasagi, there's a couple that build on pre-existing abilities, such as slow fall turning into a glide, deflect missile getting a range increase, step of the wind quadrupling jump distance rather than doubling and one or two more.
Thesubscriber Withnothingtodo No worries, I was just wondering if there was a UA or some new elemental disciplines in one of the newer books that I missed somehow.
How on Earth is bladesinger a bad wizard?! Already at lvl 2, you get on atleast 5 more AC than the usual wizard, 10 foot more movement speed, and again at least a +3 bonus to your concentration checks! What point is a wizard even a hundred feet away, if they get sniped by an enemy archer from 400 feet away? A wizard may be squishy, but a +5 to AC is on average essentially a doubling of health!
Same "gish" problem the Valor Bard suffers from. You get a lot of bonuses to abilities you won't use very often. The Bladesinger still isn't tough enough to hang in the front line.
I think they severely overestimate how much of a difference the hit die makes. A d12 is only 3 more HP per level than a d6 on average. At 20, that’s a total of 60 HP, which is, what, 2 or 3 good hits at that level? 1 spell if you fail your save? If you give the bladesinger a decent con and int score, they’ll be slightly lower HP, with possibly much higher AC than a fighter, along with all the buffs and other advantages of high level spell casting. Simulacrum to double their damage. Foresight for advantage on everything. Haste for speed, an extra attack, and another 2 AC. Not saying that they’re going to be able to tank like a barbarian, or outperform a fighter toe to toe, but they’ll definitely hold their own and be an asset to the party if played properly as a striker.
@@nickwilliams8302 except they dont.. bladesingers, even ones that want to use weapons for the majority are still better than enchantment school wizards... Tensers transformation, 20dex/20int dual wielding rapiers with the feat (skin them as sabres if the aesthetics bothers you) nets you 3d8+6d12+30 per turn without crits, and all of those attacks are at advantage (add 1d8+2d12 per crit) **and you always qualify for elven accuracy** "Oh but they are too squishy". Tensers temp hp literally fills the hp discrepancy, and your 20/20stats gives you 24 ac without magic items. You can also opt to use haste instead of tensers to do 4d8+40, but boosting your innate defenses to 31ac when you use shield spell -- and you still dont have magic items like bracers of defense. "Oh, but ac doesnt work against spells"... but you are still a wizard.. and 26 base ac for a turn you need to cast counterspell is still pretty good.. And if you use the haste variant you can still cast spells.. so feel free to be misty stepping around the battlefield, or throwing out a fireball or two instead of attacking.. worst case you can drop haste to use a conc based control spell
@@Rodrik18 haste variant? or you simply speaking of a wizard who just casts haste on himself? You stop concentrating on haste as a wizard in melee you're pretty much going to get all in'd and be rerolling a battle master
I was playing a 1fighter/3bladesinger for Dragon Heist and the DM, who I think was sad that he couldn't hit me, basically turn my Character against the party with some mind control. I had been given the badge in Waterdeep that gives +2 to Ac while you don't have a shield. With a +4 dex mod and a +3 int mod, we all used a roll the DM rolled, and mage armor I had a 22AC and could have 27 AC with a shield cast. They realized they would have to crit to hit me... Two of the four other party members got away... the rest rolled up new characters. Another interesting fact about the frenzy Barb it that they are one of the only way's to get that bonus action attack without using the Attack Action. So you can use your action for anything that you want and still attack. Want to pour a potion down a prone ally's mouth, do it then attack. Use a magic item then attack. It has its uses, exhaustion is a bit much though. Maybe every other rage would even it out a bit. Also one of the Coolest moments I've had... knocking an Adult White Prone in mid flight with my Pact Weapon in the shape of a long bow. No Save to the Eldritch Smite.
Warlocks great for Multi classing into My Half Orc Barb3/Fighter2/1Sorc/14warlock is a fun chad to play he sits enemies down and teaches them a lesson with the business end of a great axe
@@Nerdarchy oh I know. I'm having a blast with her. Shes a Tabaxi and I'm playing her as a derpy cat who's a bit of a pyromaniac. The party excuses her low damage in combat for the fun RP she brings to the game. Btw I love your channel! It gets me through my long night shifts. 😁
Worst composition - Any party that lacks one or more of the following - A healer An exploration specialist (someone to pick locks, disarm traps, potentially track enemies) A tank You could probably build a team without any of these filled, especially if you have people making bad choices of background and spell selections. For classes, well, a poorly built bard, a monk, a warlock and an over-multi-classed gish character(particularly something like Barbarian/wizard) would make for a really weak comp.
Unless your party is working together flawlessly a tank isn't going to work. There is a few builds that actually manage to build some sort of aggro but most of the time they just can't protect from every enemy. Unless there is a chokepoint enemies can get past you, unless you stand next to an ally you can't block at all but then you also become targets for aoe. And in any case ranged enemies can and will still hit your party and after all that you yourself aren't much beefier than any other melee build. What you really need is an attacker, you can still take a ton of punishment but you also deliver it and that's the difference. Because a well positioned Berserker or Fighter will always soak so much more damage than any dedicated tank.
@@hieronymusnervig8712 what I mean by tank is someone who can take a hit, not someone to draw aggro in the mmo sense. If you don't have anyone with a hit die higher than a d8, that can cause problems. A party needs someone up front who can survive in melee without having to retreat.
Eldritch Blast's Agonizing Blast actually does stack and that's part of the Warlock's main strength: You don't QUITE get Fighter Damage and you don't QUITE get a Wizard's burst damage right out of the gate, but you're somewhere in-between where you can do some big spells and get a nice solid DPS over time, but you have very few slots and kind-of mediocre but alright health. It's just straight-up purely meant to be a middle ground between a Fighter and a Wizard or some other mage-focused class with a lot of customization thrown in so you can build your Warlock into whatever you really want it to be. I really hope people don't get misinformed by this video because Warlocks can be pretty strong, they're just more generalized and fill more of a middle ground role in combat.
It's not I totally botched that one. Doesn't change how I feel about warlocks, but I was definitely incorrect. It just doubles down on the eldritch blast button mash play style of the warlock. I wish they would of built in some other equally appealing options. Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy You do, Eldritch Blast is strong but it's still going to be out-paced by higher level spells and that's to say nothing of whatever buffs or status effects you can use to turn the battle more to your favor like Enemies Abound and Hypnotic Pattern. And with Hex, getting these types of effects on a monster has never been easier. Or heck, cast Sickening Radiance to inflict exhaustion and use the push from your Blasts to keep people inside the area of effect while using Counterspell to deal with non-physical ranged attacks. Just because Warlocks have a good damaging option, that doesn't mean they're unable to do other things to help the group.
Before going blade pact warlock I always ask if the theme I'm going for will be better served if I go tome pact and pick shilleaghli as one of the bonus cantrips.
I really want to hear about a specific four character party that doesn't work well. I've been cringing at my current party with a Rouge, paladin, sorceress, and Bard. While we can talk anybody into anything, we can't do much else.
A good thing about D&D is that there is basically no "really bad choice". Let's take the Berserk Barbarian as an example: it's clearly the worse Barbarian subclass but you can still play it and have a lot of fun while being usefull to the team. The most famous example of this is probably Grog from Critical Role.
Well, in 5E D&D anyway. So many features are packed in to your choice of base class that you really can't go wrong there, but in earlier editions there were enough customizable factors that it was very possible to put yourself into a no-win character build. ...Although, I guess it'd be technically possible to mess up a character on purpose in 5E if you go spellcaster with only utility spells in a game where there will be combat.
It seems like the worst party composition would be a party where everyone is exactly the same class and subclass. At that point no one can cover anybody else's weaknesses. So, if you run into just one bad guy who's your counter opposite or if you're in a situation where you're classes focus is totally worthless, then the entire party is dead.
Entire group of human variant paladins who take magic initiate warlock says hello. Team Cockroach GO! (seriously though the one class groups are hilariously tilted but they're also just as doable depending on their overlap)
@@TeamKhandiKhane eh, maybe. I doubt it though. especially if they've got the same subclass too. 4 paladins though. Seems easy enough, throw down a sphere of dead magic and add in a ghost.
An archer valour bard is incredible, throw in three levels of ranger for the archery style, collossus slayer and hunters mark? You get very solid ranged damage and the bard spellcasting can concentrate on control spells it does so well.
IMO 4 elements monk is basically to give monks good options for horde-fights (AoE spells) and fights against flying opponents (ranged spells or fly). It is a class designed to make monks more versatile rather than min-maxing them. It is probably a waste if you have a Wizard or Sorcerer in your party, but for martial-dominated parties or low-magic campaigns it is a good option.
Hey! Bard of valor works quite effectively. Scenerio #1 you have a party of many people with fluid schedules. You, a wizard, a sorcerer, and a druid are in battle with a lot of hostiles. You only really have one fighter in the party if your aren't in the college of valor. If you choose valor, get reach weapons, or better, a lance.
I had a lot of fun with variant human (crossbow expert feat) Beast Master Ranger... and it was not at all underpowered... and I chose it as so many people complained about it and it clearly needed testing... just have to make sure you keep your beast out of direct danger and plan when he gets involved well as he can be squishy and a bit of pain to replace.
We've always played pact of the chains using the MM sidebars. I only recently saw the either Mearls or Crawford say that it doesn't play that way. We will house rule that it does anyway. Nerdarchist Dave
As far as monks are concerned, I've always hated that the monk is themed after Shaolin monastery monks but people keep naming their abilities as Ki abilities- Shaolin monks use Chi as their internal energy and life force and even though it is mostly synonymous to Ki which is the Japanese word for the same principle concept, the monks that are being referred to are Chinese not Japanese and should be using Chi points instead of Ki points. But I didn't write the book, so I suppose I can't be faulted or change it.
The worst party is the one that doesn't work together. You could make a party of the best subclasses, which all have the race(subrace) that benefits that class(subclass) the most, and if they don't work together, everything falls apart. Likewise, worst subclasss with the worst race(subrace) combination could work well, providing that folks know how to work together.
What in the world do you guys have against Gish classes??? I've played many gishes (Bladesinger, Hexblade, Sword Bard), and I think you really understate the variety they bring to a group. Any fighter can enter a battle and find that they only have, what, 3 or 4 things to do? A Bladesinger in the fray has *every* option available to them. Nuke a clump of monsters! Focus on a single target and slice and dice! Throw out some control spells to change the battlefield! Counterspell the enemy wizard! Did you know that the AC granted by Bladesong is BONUS AC? That means it STACKS on top of Mage Armor! A Bladesinger with 20 INT and Mage Armor has 18 AC while Bladesinging, BEFORE you add Dex Modifier; that's as much as a man in full plate! You pit a Bladesinger one on one against a Battlemaster Fighter and I *guarantee* you the Bladesinger will dance circles around him. Spells like Blur or Haste give you an edge that other melee classes simply *can't deal with*, and if you haven't simply carved your opponent into fine slices, you can target his weak saves just for fun. You CAN'T tell me that a Bladesinger in the fray doesn't belong there, because a Bladesinger is a one-man army. And this goes beyond just bias into sheer hypocrisy because you guys seem to LOVE the Paladin, who is a gish class right out of the box! I'm playing a Paladin in a Tomb of Annihilation game and BOY do I feel like a gish when I'm spending my turns healing and using Lay On Hands to keep my party up instead of doing fight-things!
LOL, we think gishes are mechanically inferior. That doesn't mean don't like them. My main was a gish from 1st-20th level. Mountain dwarf war wizard eldritch knight fighter. Super tanky usually had a lot of options. But didn't hit as hard as the fighter. His spells weren't as good as the bard. A ton of fun to play. The problem with gish subclasses is all there abilities are geared to making them good at doing something they weren't meant to be good at mechanically. Haste great until it gets dispelled or your concentration broken. Speaking from experience. Nerdarchist Dave
Gish are fun. It is simply a case of by the numbers gish specialties given to classes are inferior. You have more options, but in optimum conditions for your class the gish falls behind the specialized options designed to build on your previous abilities. That is what this video is all about. Which class options are the best and worst based solely on numbers. What works for you, your group, and your adventure will determine the best and worst options.
Yeah, other comments points taken. I love my Valour Bard. So much fun and so many options. Such a multiple use class that I have never found to be boring to play. Worst choice maybe, still more than capable of positively contributing to any situation. I would like to have the College of Lore Bardic Inspiration though.
Honestly to me i usually prefer playing gish classes. I love the idea of weaving magic into melee, though I personally hate the thought of multiclassing. I played a Bladesinger for a couple sessions for AL and with the exception of my first level being a level 1 wizard with 7hp, I actually was a very effective melee combatant who had an ac of 17 at 2nd level, backed up with wizard spells.
Literally the best domain spells. And the class feature they were bitching about(blessing of the trickster) is insanely good for the level you get it. It would be way too powerful if you could just have advantage on stealth checks whenever you wanted. Honestly the only thing that upset me about trickery cleric is the lack of access to invisibility spells.
@@shadycactus6146 exactly!! They help the team plus have POWERFUL spells at their disposal, I am disappointed at their lack of vison other than just raw combat power
It seems you guys don't understand how frontline works in D&D. Specifically referencing bladesinger here, but they have high AC, which means they are getting hit less and it makes up for low HP (especially if you take into account shield/blur/etc). On the flipside, you have something like a Barbarian who has a low AC (gets hit more) but uses health as their defensive option. Ilusion is far more useless than a bladesinger. Shoot, you could go full Pew Pew bladesinger (without getting into melee) and still be stronger than an illusionist wizard. Great vid tho, love watching these.
I just finished playing gish which regularly got his AC up to 34 with shield and no it didn't make up the lower hp. Things that can hit you hit hard or every hit is a crit. I loved playing that character, but the simple truth was the bard could out cast me and the pure fighter out fought me. I had my moments where I'd shine. Action surge and steel wind striking twice in the same round always a blast or dropping a fireball at my feet, using absorb elements at a high level slot, and then taking my hasted attack was a lot of fun. The idea of playing a bladesinger that hangs back is also silly. All your abilities are dedicated to not hanging back. When all your subclasses abilities are dedicated to making you good something your not you are going to be mechanically suboptimal. That being said it doesn't mean that it isn't a fun character to play. Nerdarchist Dave
Bladesinger is actually good. They get light armor proficiency and, as a bonus action twice per short rest, can add their intelligence to their AC and concentration checks for a minute. If you knew nothing else about them, that would sound pretty good. Being able to make weapon attacks, gaining a weapon proficiency, the acrobatics checks, and the other benefits are just extras on top. At level two, a Bladesinger can bump his AC up as high as 24 by using shield. Let's combine this with what's widely considered to be one of the worst sixth level spells: Tenser's Transformation. Assuming we TWF and took Warcaster, we now have a wizard with bonus hit points who can absorb damage with his spell slots (Bladesinger). He has advantage, proficiency in, and adds his intelligence to his concentration checks, meaning he won't lose the form any time soon. And he has advatage on all attacks, of which he'll make three per round, and adds an extra 2d12 force damage to each attack. With scimitars, that's 3d6+6d12 damage dice per turn. Since those are dice, they're doubled on a crit, and Bladesinger elves can obviously take Elven Accuracy. If you happen to have two levels of Paladin to smite with wizard spell slots, that's just icing on the cake. For ten minutes a day, this character is a backup fighter outdamaging everyone except maybe the GWM barbarian. Why do this? Because Legendary Resistance will put a stop to just about everything else the wizard might do, but it doesn't protect the boss from weapon attacks.
Then, how about Wizard, minimum int, dump con Fighter, minimum str, dump con. Tricky cleric, dump con, low str, basically no heal magic, only weird spells. barbarian with highest int in the party, low con, low str.
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Mastermind rogue is sub optimal from my experience
Ranger is just the worst class though. Not the revised. The revised is better. But the orignal 5e Ranger got seriously nerfed after how amazing it was in 4e. A dual wielding ranger in 4e was by far the best striker around.
Guys you totally forgot the complete and utter waste of space that is a cavalier mounted in a dungeon
Cavalier has an identity crisis - the name, and the mount feature, imply that it's a mounted combat based class, but if you look at literally every other feature it has, it's a fantastic infantry defender. You really shouldn't be playing it mounted in the first place.
@@66maybe66 True, but it was meant to be a mounted fighter. Granted, an epic defender, but still...
5 edgy rogues, since one of them can't stand in a corner.
Lucas M. Wouldn’t they just draw a massive pentagram, and each stand in a corner of that for MaXiMuM eDgE
One guy states dramatically into the fireplace. Easy fix
Thats what you think. Ceilings make corners too
Randall Pickard But then it’s harder for people to notice them brooding.
Those who think brooding in the rafters can't happen never played online freeform on AOL. Sometimes the rafters were more crowded than the floor.
"We need a healer, tank, striker, and controller" No you don't, that is a balanced party composition. The worst party composition wouldn't be balanced.
Agreed, I figured that was what they would be shooting for. I am leaning towards 5 Wild Magic Sorcerers might be the weakest, but could be damn fun.
@@scook9999
Otherwise known as the "Mage: The Ascension in DnD" party. Just, you know, without _most_ of the benefits of playing a MtAs character.
This
Cool i thought i was the only one who used the term striker anymore.
Balanced compositions aren't that good though
The worst party is one run by players who don't want to go adventuring.
the worst party is one consisting of 6 Lone Wolves with mysterious stranger background.
I hereby declare this thread the winner!
@@admiraltonydawning3847 6 edgelord rogues, sounds about right. Maybe they'll fight each other instead of the monsters.
they never talk, but you can "hear" their internal monologues
Travelling to be more precise
A Halfling Barbarian, a Dwarf Wizard, and a Gnome Paladin walk into a bar, they hire a Goblin Druid to help them sneak into a High Elf Castle.
One of my favorite all time characters was my halfling barbarian.
@@quincybriley4113 dude right? halfling barbarian is insane if you do it right
Besides the Dwarf Wizard it sounds like a stable party.
I would go with. A Kobold Ranger
A Warforged Druid, and a Lizardfolk Artificer.
@AmishRiot being a asshole for sake of being a asshole?
@AmishRiot care to elaborate?
Everyone takes 13,13,13,10,10,10 and multiclass into every class possible
Oh yeah, a full party of Abserd's, yes I did spell that name correctly, if you are curious google him, you will probably both regret it and get a laugh at the same time :)
@@venoltar puffin why you do this?
@@venoltar Then there is Driebus Beestinger. But Abserd is still something more than that. :D
prostrats lol
@@TheNowerianRaven Driebus Beestinger is the best ridiculous multiclass joke simply by virtue that he had talked about his history with various classes but (likely because it was such a low combat adventure) everyone else at the table seemed to not know or forgot what his classes were until he raged, sneak-attacked, and divine smited in the same turn. I don't think he needs an ongoing career, but it was a hell of a punchline for his guest spot.
Build the Barbarian around being an insomniac who's always feeling exhausted. Whenever people wake him up he rages.
That sounds terrible.
You'd be asleep during all the roleplay
@JoeRingo118 berzerk
Get tired
Rest
Awoken by goblins
Berzerk for combat
Get tired
Repeat
Graal Otonami it could be better interesting to have in a bigger group if one player enjoys being a viewer as much or more than a player
Go knight background and play the retainers dragging his unconscious ass around.
@@1Ring42 My current character is literally a retainer for our Noble party member.
Her name is Mai Laydee.
how about a RP take on it. One illiterate, headstrong, blindly faithfull Paladin and 4 Barbarians who have declared him their War chief and sworn their lives to his after he saved them. Also One of the barbarian fancies himself a sneaky thief and he's bad at it and always leaves a trail back to the group, but never gets caught directly.
May the fun/horror ensue.
Sounds amazing
A barbarian that thinks he is a cleric, if the person he heals dies they were evil (insert punching as healing method.) a wizard that fancies himself a tank without the defensive spells (This is based off of something that happened in one of my games...), a kleptomaniac bard who is just charismatic enough to get the enemy to believe he didn't steal their booze but in fact it was the barbarian healer that did it, and a pyromaniac paladin.
The wizard thing is based off of the time when my group encountered a centaur for the first time.. It noticed them before they noticed it, started a charge, the wizard is the only one that passed the check to see it in time and proceeded to push the heavily armored paladin out of the way only to get impaled to a tree...
Try the story of That Guy: The all barbarian party. 6ish barbarians, only one of them can read. They ignore all the plot hooks because they keep burning all the notes or killing all the npcs that would clue them in that something greater is going on. All in all, they did very well.
from what i can tell, the very first thing to know about being a wizard is that YOU ARE SQUISHY. YOU ARE SO, SO SQUISHY.
From a roleplaying standpoint, this party seems pretty epic.
Trickery Domain Cleric
Purple Dragon Knight
Way of The Four Elements Monk
Pact of The Blade Warlock
Blade Singer Wizard
Agreed. I'm sure it's been said, and maybe it's obvious, but a good player can make up for these class differences, i would think.
Simply for the reason i've never seen this Party composition ever, i think i'd be interessting.
Trickery is good once you realize domain spells are a class feature and that a bad feature, although feeling bad, doesn’t make a whole subclass bad.
“I don’t hear many people saying they want to play oath of ancients”
My Yuan-Ti Paladin friend: “Allow me to introduce myself”
Oh my.... You madman!!
Yeah but anyone who calls Oath of the Ancients bad, hasn't read up to level 7 in the skill tree.
He’s planning on multi-classing into a Barbarian so he can... well... just ignore non-psychic more
@@dnddude9652 Ah nice. just watch out from damage from dragon breath and such. because those don't count as spells. Also shield master might be nice with it, if you want to get really extreme.
Oath of the Ancients paladins work really well with Fey Warlock patrons. One stop shop for all your patron needs.
Just one note as Warlock, according to Jeremy Crawford, Agonizing Blast applies the charisma bonus to EACH beam of Eldritch Blast. So 2 beams is 2 times that Charisma Modifier is applied as bonus damage.
Confirmed: www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/30/does-agonizing-blast-allow-a-warlock-to-add-their-charisma-mod-to-each-blast/
Dave is wrong on this one.
Yup, and it's worth noting that Agonizing Blast also stacks with other Invocation effects:
www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/21/can-agonizing-blast-repelling-blast-stack/
Once you get to level 5 and have access to multiple beams that means you have the chance to do 2D10 + double your Charisma mod, plus a 20ft knock back every single round just using a cantrip; not something to be sneezed at. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why Warlocks are one of the weaker classes in 5e, but Eldritch Blast isn't one of them.
@@M0ebius not the 1st time. Probably not the last.
Nerdarchist Dave
Correct I was incorrect. I originally played that way and read something from the wizards team or thought I did saying the once per turn per enemy thing.
Oops!
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy It's easily done. I would concede that even the PHB descriptions of how invocation effects work with Eldritch Blast are open to a degree of interpretation, especially with regard to stacking and combining of the various effects.
"Do we have a bad rogue?"
"No. We don't"
Made me chuckle because the rogue base class is so good that you can't go wrong with any of the subclasses. My fave class by far.
Yeah, when it comes to Rogues & "being bad", it really comes down 2 things: Either the Player is bad or the Dice Rolls that session decided to a *bleep*
I actually would like a party composed of all of these choices and would base the story around the fact that they're kind of resentful about being considered the "B" Team and always get the worst choices of adventure vs another NPC party in the same city. Then the other party would even start "stealing" their kills by showing up 1 round before the Dragon goes down and share the glory without any of the hassle, etc.
Would be pretty fun to intentionally taunt the sub-optimal PCs to get them to be truly heroic or ultimate villainous force depending on where they end up taking out their frustrations.
Was disappointed based on the video title. This video is about what are the worst classes, not party composition. Thought based on title they would discuss party composition, as in how classes fit together
Well, strong party composition is based on variety. The more variery the more situations you can tackle. So I think the worse one would simply be 5 Purple Dragon Knights, 5 Pact of Blade Warlocks, or 5 Bladesinger Wizards. No variety, and what you do have sucks.
Either Gnome or Kobold Berserkers only.
Any kind of spellcaster still has spells and can thus find other ways to play.
These guys can literally only run at the enemy, screaming and waving giant weapons except they can't because they are too small for giant weapons.
Kobolds get 1 extra dexterity while loosing 2 strength, so I think they would be the weaker of the two.
I'd probably just play a dex barb and go two weapon fighting, thus making the last sole point of a Berserker invalid :D
@@hieronymusnervig8712 I think it depends what level you start at. Casters have traditionally been dogshit at lower levels. I feel like 5 Barbarians would do better than 5 Bladesingers (although maybe not if the Barbarians are Kobold) at lower level as they tend to do very well early on. Or at least thats in my experience.
@@nicholascastellano5909 You probably fall behind a little bit in AC and HP but you get stuff like Magic Missile or Invisibility to make up for it.
If your DM just throws you into combat like "Hey, 6 Bandits just suddenly show up and attack you" then spellcasters are clearly worse.
But as once you can RP encounters or you come across magic the spellcasters will outshine the barbs in every other aspect.
Personally I think these gish builds are much worse before they get their subclass, are then about equal for levels 3-5 and then start to outclass the barbarians because now both have double attacks but one of them has spells and the other doesn't.
Also at level 2 bladesingers gain their own mini rage (and kobold barbs can't even use theirs decently) and warlocks are always useful because eldritch blast.
@@nicholascastellano5909 wouldn't 5 healers be the absolute worst?
Trickery Cleric and Pact of the blade Warlock... At least Fjord and Jester can be together on this party of five.
Vex and trinket too
Grog as well. Hmm, same players in both games, strange.
In season1 they came from Pathfinder tho. So they had to pick something that worked
Fjord is a Hexbladelock though, a subclass made specifically to make bladelocks better. So he doesn't count in this instance.
Warwick: The Uncaged Wrath of Zaun He still counts, he just isn’t as bad as he would be if he hadn’t taken hexblade.
Oath of Ancients Paladins rock with their resistance to magic.
THANK YOU!
Exactly. They are the weakest until level 7, then they probably become the strongest just because of this.
My first Character was an Ancients Paladin. Thought he was really strong. DM thought he was strong. But I keep getting told they suck...i guess I just played really smart
@@MrIzzy5466 I think they don't suck at all. Their subclass features and spell list is weaker than the Vengeance one, but on par with the Devotion one and certainly better than the Crown one. And there is their anti-magic aura that makes all other Paladin's auras cry at night about themselves.
They are arguably the best mounted class due to this alone. AOE magic resistance and bonuses to saves combined with Mounted Combatant means that the mount is going to be making all saves with evasion and your Cha bonus as well as double resistance in a way (evasion for the half damage on a failed save, then resistance to that damage for 1/4th the actual damage).
Having a frontline that is resistant to all magic damage as well as bonuses to all saves means your team is just not going to die. Have a monk in the party? They are going to be getting something like a +9-10 to their Dex saves at higher levels as well as the already mentioned double resistance. It is incredibly difficult to deal with a party that has Oath of the Ancients as the Paladin is effectively almost giving an entire feat to everyone within 10 ft.
Ancient Paladins do not need their channel divinity and I was incredibly surprised when they mentioned how weak it was. Why complain about that channel divinity when the Conquest Paladin's level 7 ability is the measly half your Paladin level in psychic damage but only when it is frightened of YOU specifically, not frightened in general?
Personally, I feel that that ability alone makes Ancient Paladins incredibly powerful. Resistance to all magical damage is arguably one of the strongest abilities in the game. So many enemies rely on magic damage to dish out the big numbers. Plus, it is incredibly hard to come by. Very few abilities (even up to level 20) give out spell resistance (something they even mentioned as being incredibly useful for the Pact of the Chain Warlock) and they get it at level 7. Monks don't get magical damage until the level before this one (besides the anime Monks).
Unless its errata (I'd love to see a link) you're wrong about Agonizing blast... the text clearly reads its for every hit, and it works like a weapon attack would, and Jeremy Crawford said it worked that way a while back.
Confirmed: www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/30/does-agonizing-blast-allow-a-warlock-to-add-their-charisma-mod-to-each-blast/
That had me reaching for the PHB too, as I have always assumed that invocations which alter the mechanics of Eldritch Blast were stackable. The RAW per the handbook seems pretty clear cut: 'When you cast Eldritch Blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit.
' Nothing about one hit on a creature per round. Glad to see it confirmed as working in this manner by Jeremy Crawford.
Yeah I'm unsure of where they got that idea, and the claim that Warlock is the worst class when the ranger exists and the fact that they completely ignored what makes the Warlock actually good (even without the whole "having a DM that allows short rests to be a good idea"), namely the powerful invocations that let you cast spells without using spell slots. And they clearly undervalued what is probably the best cantrip in the game, which functions like a melee weapon does, with comperable damage (if not more, especially since its force damage) at a range. But you dont even need agonizing strike- or even elderitch blast. Spam false life and a permanent mage armor on yourself? That turns you into one of the strongest early level fighters in the game. Hell, go pact of the tome and grab that druid cantrip that turns sticks into magic martial weapons that let you use Charisma as your modifier and green flame blade and you dont NEED elderitch blast. They also regularly undervalue the sorcerrer, which despite its limitations can be game breaking (twinned spell is absolutely insane, it doubles some spell slots!! sorc is bad if you dont take the right spells, like charm person or hold person ect.) It seems to me they have a very biased view based on a simplistic reading of these classes.
Anyway, the absurdity of this exersize is plain- they didnt create the worst party, they selected their least favorite/"weakest" subclasses when they could just throw out (assuming a 4 man party) 4 rangers, or really, 4 of any single class. 4 barbarians would get destroyed past level 3. 4 wizards would die at level 1.
I thought I read something from the wizards team in the early days of 5e. I appear to be wrong.
Happens.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy indeed. No worries. Just a passionate Warlock enthusiast. Palocks and Sorclocks are a blast, fyi. The later is more pure cheese (infinite spell slot storage if you never take a long rest, its cheap, silly, and hilarious)
Hey berserker, here’s your special ability, you get to make a bonus attack, then get screwed after! It’s a “special’ special ability!
Bladesingers with the ac bonus, mirror image, concentration bonus, the shield spell, 2 attacks, and shadow blade up casted to level 3 or 5 can totally hang in melee especially with war caster and mobile.
I have a power game that is so hard to figth since the uslaly gets to insane hace iwht mage harmor bald song and shield I cant hiot him and dex save are easy for this +5 dex
Dave's misunderstanding of Agonizing Blast had me scrambling to find out what the heck was gong on. To be clear, AB adds CHA to each blast bolt.
I also came here to say this.
Ditto
Same
Came here to defend the Warlock’s honor, but it looks like my fellow Warlock players are already on it
A party full of Wild Magic mages. Bwuahaha the world ended on session 3 due to one bad roll of the dice.
Chain reaction wild surge fireballs.
Nerdarchist Dave
Hahahaha rolls a 1. Now everyone has masshysteria.
I just found my favorite comment. XD
Yeah my brother in law blew himself up with a wild magic fireball last night...
Just had a quest where we were two wizards and one Barbarian. This was just three people trying their best not to freaking die.
...warlocks get at-will silent image at lvl2... if you cant do great things with that then you need to get more creative.
On top of that, there are plenty of at-will invocations -- detect magic, disguise self, levitate, invisibility off the top of my head. Some of those are rituals, but you dont have to sit 10min there (maybe you dont have 10min to wait around in that room of the evil wizarss lab before he gets back)
They can get 9+ casts at 5th level without burning higher slots (yes, it means the party takes two short rests.. but healing by hitdice is also a thing)
Warlocks also can learn and use all rituals in the game with Book of Ancient Secrets...
I dont like blaming players... but warlocks aren't boring -- sometimes boring players roll a warlock.
I don’t see how Warlocks are any more boring than Fighters.
Thank you.
Permanent free mage armor or spammable false life anyone???? Compensate by stealing ritual casting, the wizards best feature, from them and not being a class that dies to an errant pebble? Like christ, they seriously dont know what they're talking about with some of these. The one on agonizing blast not working per-hit seems strait homeruled as both the core rules and crawfords twitter said each hit adds the cha modifier.
Theres no universe where the warlock is worse than the ranger and the ranger is STILL better than they think the warlock is. They also dont seem to understand what makes a gish good??? Valor bard sure, but the wizard gish subclass is one of the most min-maxy things in the game aside from like sorcadins or palocks, or my favorite sorcadinlocks
Celestial warlock with pact of the chain. You can get an invocation that maximises all healing on you as long as your familiar is within 100 feet of you
I have DMd for a bladesinger and I actually thought it was really strong. Their small hit dice don't really matter because their AC ends up so high if they're built properly that nothing is ever going to hit them while they're bladesinging.
The problem becomes when they do get hit. Either it was a crit or the baddies are hitting really hard. Also makes those concentration checks harder to make. Which really sucks when you are hasted.
Just finished playing gish which regularly got his AC up to 33. HP were always the problem even with 6 fighter levels and a high con.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy
The Bladesinger is insanely powerful if you simply don't wade into melee. They're a full-fledged wizard that can shore up their only real weakness at will.
@@GlacialScion the other problem is your subclass abilities going towards making you good at something that you aren't. For these reasons I consider it mechanically weaker. Now that doesn't mean it isn't fun or thematic. Nor would I ever say you shouldn't play one.
My mountain dwarf war wizard eldritch knight suffered from the same thing and I'm sure he had way more hp than an elf.
Doesn't make me like that character any less. I just know what his short comings are.
Nerdarchist Dave
I love bladesingers, I got to play one for 5 minuets, then an Oni hit me with a cone of cold...
@@andrewohoro
Gotta get Warcaster, Resilient: Con, and make use of Absorb Elements. That way you can survive two of those maybe.
the worst party comp is probably something more like 5x Bladesinger Wizards. No tank, no heals, and your frontline is as squishy as a backline.
5 Bladesinger Wizards built properly should not be touched with all the control spells at there hands and at level 9 ac 23 then shield to 28 makes it hard for me to get hit, at 10 if shield won't save me sack a spell slot for temp hp against the attack 5x spell level. Spells aren't just for damage but if I lock down half the battle field hypnotic pattern, hold person/monster then pick off the opponents as we fancy.
@@matthewfarrell8233 the problem with wizards is, they're paper tigers when it comes to combat. their potential is great, you throw out the example of hypnotic pattern, hold person etc... however, those end up failing as often as they succeed.
what does success mean in this example? success means probably overcoming the encounter, and living to fight another day. what does failure mean? certain death. so you have a 50% chance of doing something cool and living to fight another day, or a 50% chance of being reduced to a grease spot. thus, a party full of bladesingers? very good chance they dont make it out of the first session, most probably last 2 or 3 sessions.
i believe bladesinger is actually the strongest subclass in wizard. as long as you keep moving! you can't stand up there in melee, you're in and out. you are controlling the battlefield not only with your spells, but with your movement. but, you need a solid, balanced, party with people in your group who know what they're doing as well. plus there is still a lot of skill involved with successfully playing a bladesinger. not everyone can do it.
so, with that said, i like the bladesinger, but there are a handful of other classes that execute their role in combat much better, and some that also do it more efficiently and effortlessly.
@@herogibson Thats pretty fair, That being said, if there were 5 bladesingers, they each have the 50% chance to succeed at the spell. so Two cast hold person, one fails the other succeeds, the rest then auto critical the target. But more likely, if the party has 5 bladesingers, they'll rotate who is on melee duty and who is on control duty. The real issue the group will have is a lack of healing.
@@blindhamsterman1 well. now you're talkin almost expert level players who are all in love with the strategy of combat, and whom have been together for a long time. this is like a unicorn group =(
@@herogibson ive played with the same group of players across various games for about a decade :D Usually if we're not working tactically well together it's because we're roleplaying a group that aren't used to eachother yet!
"When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit."
How do you guys conclude that Agonizing blast only adds Charisma damage once to each target? Even Jeremy Crawford confirmed: "Agonizing Blast applies every time eldritch blast hits." in a tweet
Eh guys, the agonizing blast hits every hit of the Eldritch Blast. Sage advice confirmed that.
Apart from that, the worst party composition is a chaotic rogue, lawful neutral/evil paladin, any chaotic barbarian, any lawful cleric and evil wizard/sorcerer. The RP alone will destroy the party.
You're wrong on Agonizing Blast.
"When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit."
That's every time your eldritch blast hits a creature. Not just once per creature, not just once per turn, each time it hits you add your CHA mod.
Yeah, it’s *EVERY SINGLE TIME...*
If Agonising blast was once per round, then the additional Str or Dex damage for other weapons would *ALSO* be once per round...
Yeah, if giving advice, it’d worth knowing the rules 🤨
@@dnddude9652 but it is,
A basic character with no combat abilities other than the ability to attack with 2 weapons separately in a turn,
Will only add the modifier to their main hand weapon.
(@ Bram Lastname)
Yeah, but that’s if you don’t have the 2 Handed thing that comes from Fighter, Ranger, Sword Bard and a few others (I think)
@@dnddude9652 I'm just presenting an argument
As to why it wouldn't be weird
to apply similar logic to Eldrich Blast.
In the end I don't care what the rule is,
I just saw a hole in the argument
That could use some more cover.
Trickery cleric worst domain?! Dont show this video to Treantmonk!
Same with valour bard
@@PrimordialAnnihilator Hah indeed. Tho i think Treantmonk makes stronger argument in trickery cleric case, cuz in valor bard case you can just dip in some class that will give you that armor and shield proficiency, while you have to go pretty deep in other class to get these sweet sweet trickery domain spells. That is if the table allows multiclassing.
Weakest for a super strong class. All the domains that rely heavily on channel divinity suffer from this. Also remember we are setting the bar at life cleric.
Nerdarchist Dave
Is funny how the misconceptions for both trickery cleric and the valor bard can make people not see how strong they really are with the spells they have access too and things they actually do compared to what others think
@@awesomecow7264 I think that might be because the idea the subclasses give off initially doesn't coincide with their actual gameplay style and it makes people think they're weaker than they actually are. To that avail, at least the college of blades offers a better alternative to a true "battle bard", but I think Valor is more fun to roleplay, almost like a drummer boy during a war or something.
Speaking of not filling party roles my party doesn't have a healer. So when the last drop of the healing potions is gone. Things go south. Fast.
ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING ME BLADESINGER IS INSANELY POWERFUL
all playable classes are extremely powerful. at level 14 and above a pc in dnd is basically a demigod
Discord hell a level 13 wizard11/fighter2 can take out a lich in one round. Have fun working out how to pull that off.
Bladesinger in 2e is way fun, though like the necromancer in 2e it requires the DM to babysit you to keep you from nreaking their game.
i wouldn't say "insanely powerful." powerful? sure. but they take more skill than the other wizards, in order to execute properly. you need a minimum of 3 good stats, compared to other wizards only needing 1. its more expensive and time consuming for them to learn new spells. and, even if you're on your shit at all times (which is what it takes for a bladesinger), when (not if, but when!) you take a bad beat, or the dice dont like you that day, you won't just fail at what you're doing. you're probably going to die. compare that to other wizards, who are nowhere near melee 99% of the time, bad day for them everything saves out of their spells. big whoop.
so, powerful? yeah. but they were absolutely right to put bladesinger down if they're picking a "worst" subclass of wizard. i personally love it, and ive gotten pretty good at it. but, lets call a spade a spade here.
@@herogibson I disagree, the tradeoff of going bladesinger is really negligible in exchange for getting one of highest AC's in the game, vastly improved concentration, a lifesaving reaction, and a plan B against anything immune to magic so you don't become the world's worst fist fighter when faced against a rakshasa. Compare these bonuses to the transmuter, necromancer, and conjurer. You don't have to fight in melee even, for all of these bonuses you don't give up any versatility that the base wizard has. Also for the record, it's a woefully inept dm that allows a wizard to cast from a 100' away with impunity. There's innumerable things in the monster manual that can force a wizard into melee, maybe then they'll wish they had a better AC and a backup reaction when a +5 shield won't cut it.
"There's no worst Druid class! They're all pretty great!"
Best thing I've heard all day
Since none of the comments I got to while scrolling mentioned it, maybe it's just me, but I've always considered Oath of Ancients to be the most powerful Paladin subclass. For anyone who disagrees, and is asking why, I direct you to Aura of Warding. Resistance to damage from spells. Not fire spells, not lightning spells, spells, full stop. Add in the Aura of Protection that all Paladins have, and your party becomes nigh immune to AoE spells(up to the aura range, obviously). "Oh, look, they grouped up so I can Fireball them. Nice." Party takes an average of 6 damage from Fireball and laughs at the caster before brutally retaliating. :D Also, while I agree that Beast Mastery is the weakest Ranger, it's super fun to constantly attack with advantage, and if you grab a wolf, you also have a sweet guard for those long rests. :)
I tend to agree about Ancient Paladin's aura. As i said in another comment this aura makes all other auras cry at night about themselves. And we're not the only ones to think that. The Giant in the Playground forum is full of people who think the Ancient is the best Paladin for this specific reason.
As an OotA pally main. I have to concur. Aura of warding basically breaks the campaign. The DM can basically no longer have spellcaster encounters. Also misty step is misty step. I think these guys are putting way too much favor in the channel divinities.
Agonizing Blast Does work on every beam. It works like Scorching Ray in which you roll for every beam. The damage is added every time you roll.
"Agonizing Blast
Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip
When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit."
You make an attack roll for every beam.
"The spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher levels: two beams at 5th level, three beams at 11th level, and four beams at 17th level. You can direct the beams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each beam." It's a . before "Make a separate attack roll for each beam."
Meaning you don't roll per different attack on different targets. It's a poorly worded way to say. "You create three rays of fire and hurl them at targets within range. You can hurl them at one target or several.
Make a ranged spell attack for each ray. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 fire damage."
People are not using Agonizing blast wrong. That is how it's meant to be used and it is how it is written. There is some vague rules but this is clear cut and I will challenge any dm that feels like this is a ruling that they have to make, or assume how it should go. It's damage boost per hit. Because each roll is different and you can miss with some rolls and hit with others. It's how it works.
Both Lance of Lethargy and Grasp of Hadar state once per turn, on hit. Meaning if you hit more then once per round, it only takes effect once. How ever Repelling Blast does not state this. Meaning you can't pull more or slow down more then 10 feet a round. Yet you can push as many times as your beams hit. So unless it says other wise, on hit means per die roll hit. I know some dms much rather have single roll attacks to single targets but makes the damage a little wild compared to a steady bell curve then per roll.
Pact of the blade boon is good with Hex blade. Other wise a little weak. How ever it lets you make any weapon you are prof in and with Hex that is all weapons. As well as the base attack when not getting any bonus to hit, does make attacks magical. So you summon any weapon from your ass, OR you can bond with a magic weapon. You don't have to bond with a non magical weapon to bond with it because you in fact cant. You just make them. With the bonus of magic damage and you can not hold your weapon for a minute. Meaning you can make a weapon then give it to your fighters if your dm is running a low magical items campaign. How ever, many bonuses you can get for pact of the blade only work for you. So read the wording closely when getting buffs when giving it to allies.
I play a lot of warlock, I bet it shows like your lack of playing warlock
@Alistair Bolden I will admit when I first posted this at lest a year ago, I was vary new like a few months of playing and saw how week warlock was compared to a pure damage out put compared to the Wizard or a paladin and taking away the cha bonus on more then one hit just makes that gap larger even if I now know Warlock is one of the better muti dip classes there is.
I did at first over look the word A, implying just a single hit would count. Yet when I noticed this a while ago. It felt weird due to nearly all hit in effects will state. "Once per turn" Or it will say "Once per attack,hit"
When it comes to Pally smites they are per hit. Blade's bard's wording is. "if a weapon attack that you make as part of this action hits a creature, you can use one of the following Blade Flourish options of your choice. You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn."
You have 3 different kinds of Flourishes meaning if you want to use each one you have to hit 3 times. I'm ignoring the clear argument of if it's one per hit or once per attack action.
The problem is I failed to find any on hit text ever stated "A hit" Low key making me feel like it was a typo because rules as written would mean, you get one bonus per attack action with Eb. So as written, you are right. How ever I wanted to see if it was intended. So after checking well.
www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/17/does-warlock-agonizing-blast-add-his-cha-mod-once-no-matter-how-many-blasts-they-have/
Sage Advice states it gives the CHA on every hit. So as written you are right, yet from what Sage advice stays it's a typo and it's intended to per per beam. Seeing how each beam is rolled as it's own attack as an action. AKA I threat EB past 5 as getting muti attack and I threat rules for muti attack the same for beam spells. For clear reasons you can't twin it but that would be me ranting about Sorc/locks trying to pay 1 point instead of 2.
@Alistair Bolden TL:DR as Written you are right, as intended, it's a typo with both my lack of finding on hits having the wording "A hit" Also after checking Sage advice with
Jeremy Crawford
who stated it was meant to be for ever beam hit.
If it was meant to be less it would say "Once per turn, or once per attack action" like E-smite stats
After rereading some of what I posted at first, I was sorta a dick. Sorry. :Y
The Undying Warlock is thematically great, but easily the weakest subclass mechanically, plus they don't even get the best Necromancy spells.
Yeah, every time I think about making one of these, I keep looking at their abilities and wonder if I'm just missing something? Because they seem really, really underwhelming.
I think they're only considering officially published content. Undying Warlock was only UA I think.
@@tylerweitzel7768 Undying are in SCAG
Burly D I am a fan of undying warlock it gives me a passive resistance to undead hordes I have spare the dying to help my healer out some and the best part at the right level I live longer and do not need to eat or sleep so I can stay up and keep lookout.
Depends on the campaign. I let my players know what sort of problems and monsters they would likely encounter in my campaign, and knowing that undead would be a problem one of my players rolled a UD warlock. He's having a great time watching everyone else around him take hits that he should have suffered :D
You guys should do the strongest/best party composition next
We kind of did and it made people angry :)
Nerdarchist Dave
Personally I like the Hexblade/pact of the blade warlock. I'm not completely useless after those 2 spell slots go out besides eldritch blast. Not to mention, that hex curse can do some damage with some spell slots. Hex curse plus Witch bolt = 10 rounds of guaranteed buffed damage. Cast that at a higher level and you become a damage hose if your party can agro manage properly
Glad I found this video. Next game I host, I am going to limit my players to this list and see if they can still hit at 200% their challenge rating consistently.
One of your best videos yet honestly. I really love listening to you two talk about your thoughts on gaming, that's always been one of my favorite things about hanging out with my friends around the table before game or after and talking about different concepts and ideas. Thanks for making my day a little brighter guys, you are awesome!
Our pleasure.
Nerdarchist Dave
I'm such an A-hole apparently, lol. I always try to make a character using most of these "bad" options...plus I take un-optimized races too: high elf-barbarian, halforc-rogue, gnome-ranger etc....
Okay, so me and my buddies had a more or less joke one shot, where we had 7 people our 4 core players, and then my girlfriend and another one of our girlfriends, and so we all made the most impractical characters possible, it was great fun
I do the same and each time I have so much fun. I'm currently playing a Drow Cleric of Life, and I choose Pelor as a deity. No one can stop me from blinding ennemies, and myself ! (Jk on them, I have sunglasses.)
same here its just fun to do something out of the ordinary... currently playing a half-orc bard in a friends campaign
kevin lytle Try Gnome/Halfling (I used Gnome, personally) Paladin but your mount is the Barbarian
Eldritch knight isn't so much a gish as it is a fighter that concentrates on his own buff.
how is eldritch knight not a gish?
A whole party of bards would be one of the worst possible things to do.
But it would be a lot of fun to play.
I've clicked through a bunch of your videos and I've found it quite entertaining to see Dave slowly turn from a viking to Santa.
I started my first game of dnd with a rogue who served as our closest thing to a tank and a wildmage who seemed to be more excited to get into melee combat than spell casting. Meanwhile I was just an archfey worshipping warlock who stayed in the back casting eldrich blast, hex, or sleep all the time. I think that party was pretty terrible, especially since the other two were murderhobos in a very story-driven campaign.
Where does Ted get those crazy awesome shirts😂😂
That was the first thing I thought lol! 😂
How about the Thief who has no weapons and has to steal weapons from the party?
I'm sure that would fit well in your worst party composition ;)
You're not wrong. It's just that the guys in this video are discussing character builds, not concepts of how you would roleplayna class. Now if the Rogue took a level of Monk, you might have something self-conflicting. The Rogue-Monk would have to choose between fighting armed and not being able to use her unarmed Monk abilties or being unarmed and not being able to Sneak Attack.
I'll need a short rest before I can attune the Notification Bell, but I'll get to it
Congrats, you built a party of roguish characters and a charisma fighter that you can play as a disenfranchised rogue, as well.
They are squishy in melee? Will it matter? Are they going to be in bad melees? Or are they always going to have advantage via trickery, stealth and pure charismatic might?
Don't they also cover each other's weaknesses? A fighter that gives healing and a wizard that can hit a goblin with a sword when stuck in melee? Sign me up for this party and give us 2 npcs, so we can be the new Magnificent Seven.
It's actually pretty difficult to make a bad party in 5e you can even make a sorta balanced party of all one class (like cleric), unless multiple people play a pretty narrow subclass, like 5 Berserkers, but that's a boring video. Insted they showed how to fill all the necessary rolls in the lest optimal way. I don't agree with all their choices, but I think it's a fun idea.
You're wrong about Agonizing Blast by the way.
"When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit. "
Where does it say it is only once per round, once per target?
dave makes so many errors in these vids
@@joseacevedo8314 Eh, shit happens and people make mistakes. Still important to correct those mistakes.
Welcome to “how to shit talk the subclasses without pissing off the community!”
the worst party is one that lacks healing, dps, and tanking. so a party of sorcerers that learned only utility spells
Challenge accepted, this will be my groups next composition.
If you play a four elements monk and only pick the passive abilities that buff your basic class features without cost, then you can play a monk that does all the basic stuff better than all others, a super monk as you will. I did that and it was pretty fun, but still no Kensai or open hand.
Thesubscriber Withnothingtodo Such as? The only one I see that doesn’t have a cost is elemental attunement, which isn’t going to do much for you in a fight.
Sky Kirasagi, there's a couple that build on pre-existing abilities, such as slow fall turning into a glide, deflect missile getting a range increase, step of the wind quadrupling jump distance rather than doubling and one or two more.
Thesubscriber Withnothingtodo those arn’t in the player’s handbook.
Sky Kirasagi I might have mixed up a home brew source then, my bad.
Thesubscriber Withnothingtodo No worries, I was just wondering if there was a UA or some new elemental disciplines in one of the newer books that I missed somehow.
Oath of ancients? They get an aura that half’s all spell damage for everyone in the aura. It’s amazing.
A Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and a Bard walk into a bar...
and then walk right out because there's no way they're working together.
Best party comp: all gully dwarf wizards.
How on Earth is bladesinger a bad wizard?! Already at lvl 2, you get on atleast 5 more AC than the usual wizard, 10 foot more movement speed, and again at least a +3 bonus to your concentration checks! What point is a wizard even a hundred feet away, if they get sniped by an enemy archer from 400 feet away? A wizard may be squishy, but a +5 to AC is on average essentially a doubling of health!
Same "gish" problem the Valor Bard suffers from. You get a lot of bonuses to abilities you won't use very often. The Bladesinger still isn't tough enough to hang in the front line.
I think they severely overestimate how much of a difference the hit die makes. A d12 is only 3 more HP per level than a d6 on average. At 20, that’s a total of 60 HP, which is, what, 2 or 3 good hits at that level? 1 spell if you fail your save? If you give the bladesinger a decent con and int score, they’ll be slightly lower HP, with possibly much higher AC than a fighter, along with all the buffs and other advantages of high level spell casting. Simulacrum to double their damage. Foresight for advantage on everything. Haste for speed, an extra attack, and another 2 AC.
Not saying that they’re going to be able to tank like a barbarian, or outperform a fighter toe to toe, but they’ll definitely hold their own and be an asset to the party if played properly as a striker.
@@nickwilliams8302 except they dont.. bladesingers, even ones that want to use weapons for the majority are still better than enchantment school wizards...
Tensers transformation, 20dex/20int dual wielding rapiers with the feat (skin them as sabres if the aesthetics bothers you) nets you 3d8+6d12+30 per turn without crits, and all of those attacks are at advantage (add 1d8+2d12 per crit) **and you always qualify for elven accuracy**
"Oh but they are too squishy". Tensers temp hp literally fills the hp discrepancy, and your 20/20stats gives you 24 ac without magic items.
You can also opt to use haste instead of tensers to do 4d8+40, but boosting your innate defenses to 31ac when you use shield spell -- and you still dont have magic items like bracers of defense.
"Oh, but ac doesnt work against spells"... but you are still a wizard.. and 26 base ac for a turn you need to cast counterspell is still pretty good..
And if you use the haste variant you can still cast spells.. so feel free to be misty stepping around the battlefield, or throwing out a fireball or two instead of attacking.. worst case you can drop haste to use a conc based control spell
Get restrained, knocked prone = dead
@@Rodrik18 haste variant? or you simply speaking of a wizard who just casts haste on himself? You stop concentrating on haste as a wizard in melee you're pretty much going to get all in'd and be rerolling a battle master
Worst party? 4 College of Glamour Bards...who all hate each other.
A party where everyone is playing a Chaotic aligned character
We've basically got that in our OotA campaign. We have 4 Chaotics and 1 Lawful.
Lawful Good Paladin
Chaotic Neutral Necromancer Wizard
I was playing a 1fighter/3bladesinger for Dragon Heist and the DM, who I think was sad that he couldn't hit me, basically turn my Character against the party with some mind control. I had been given the badge in Waterdeep that gives +2 to Ac while you don't have a shield. With a +4 dex mod and a +3 int mod, we all used a roll the DM rolled, and mage armor I had a 22AC and could have 27 AC with a shield cast. They realized they would have to crit to hit me... Two of the four other party members got away... the rest rolled up new characters.
Another interesting fact about the frenzy Barb it that they are one of the only way's to get that bonus action attack without using the Attack Action. So you can use your action for anything that you want and still attack. Want to pour a potion down a prone ally's mouth, do it then attack. Use a magic item then attack. It has its uses, exhaustion is a bit much though. Maybe every other rage would even it out a bit.
Also one of the Coolest moments I've had... knocking an Adult White Prone in mid flight with my Pact Weapon in the shape of a long bow. No Save to the Eldritch Smite.
Warlocks great for Multi classing into My Half Orc Barb3/Fighter2/1Sorc/14warlock is a fun chad to play he sits enemies down and teaches them a lesson with the business end of a great axe
Ok yall got me on this one. I'm playing a 4 Elements Monk and another group member is about to roll up a blade singer. 😂😂
Under powered doesn't mean less fun. Of course these our just opinions.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy oh I know. I'm having a blast with her. Shes a Tabaxi and I'm playing her as a derpy cat who's a bit of a pyromaniac. The party excuses her low damage in combat for the fun RP she brings to the game.
Btw I love your channel! It gets me through my long night shifts. 😁
This kept popping up in my recommended section.. so decided to watch it.
You severely underestimate how good bladesingers are
Worst composition -
Any party that lacks one or more of the following -
A healer
An exploration specialist (someone to pick locks, disarm traps, potentially track enemies)
A tank
You could probably build a team without any of these filled, especially if you have people making bad choices of background and spell selections.
For classes, well, a poorly built bard, a monk, a warlock and an over-multi-classed gish character(particularly something like Barbarian/wizard) would make for a really weak comp.
Unless your party is working together flawlessly a tank isn't going to work.
There is a few builds that actually manage to build some sort of aggro but most of the time they just can't protect from every enemy.
Unless there is a chokepoint enemies can get past you, unless you stand next to an ally you can't block at all but then you also become targets for aoe.
And in any case ranged enemies can and will still hit your party and after all that you yourself aren't much beefier than any other melee build.
What you really need is an attacker, you can still take a ton of punishment but you also deliver it and that's the difference.
Because a well positioned Berserker or Fighter will always soak so much more damage than any dedicated tank.
@@hieronymusnervig8712 what I mean by tank is someone who can take a hit, not someone to draw aggro in the mmo sense. If you don't have anyone with a hit die higher than a d8, that can cause problems. A party needs someone up front who can survive in melee without having to retreat.
@@thehulkster9434 Soooo.... any melee that isn't a scout?
@@hieronymusnervig8712 Pretty much. There are plenty of options for front-liners, but it's quite possible to not have one.
Not sure if it would be "bad" but a party of 4 Half-elf bros playing as a Bard, Warlock, Paladin, and Sorcerer would be super entertaining.
Video starts: Lets build the WORST adventuring party.
Me: So your going back a few editions and pulling "Kenders" out? Bold move.....very bold move.
I AM SO TRIGGERED AND I DON'T EVEN LIKE MONKS
Pathfinder Kingmaker for PC beat you to the punch guys. You really ought to see the NPC companions you get. Two are decent.
Eldritch Blast's Agonizing Blast actually does stack and that's part of the Warlock's main strength: You don't QUITE get Fighter Damage and you don't QUITE get a Wizard's burst damage right out of the gate, but you're somewhere in-between where you can do some big spells and get a nice solid DPS over time, but you have very few slots and kind-of mediocre but alright health. It's just straight-up purely meant to be a middle ground between a Fighter and a Wizard or some other mage-focused class with a lot of customization thrown in so you can build your Warlock into whatever you really want it to be.
I really hope people don't get misinformed by this video because Warlocks can be pretty strong, they're just more generalized and fill more of a middle ground role in combat.
It's not I totally botched that one. Doesn't change how I feel about warlocks, but I was definitely incorrect.
It just doubles down on the eldritch blast button mash play style of the warlock. I wish they would of built in some other equally appealing options.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy
You do, Eldritch Blast is strong but it's still going to be out-paced by higher level spells and that's to say nothing of whatever buffs or status effects you can use to turn the battle more to your favor like Enemies Abound and Hypnotic Pattern. And with Hex, getting these types of effects on a monster has never been easier. Or heck, cast Sickening Radiance to inflict exhaustion and use the push from your Blasts to keep people inside the area of effect while using Counterspell to deal with non-physical ranged attacks.
Just because Warlocks have a good damaging option, that doesn't mean they're unable to do other things to help the group.
Before going blade pact warlock I always ask if the theme I'm going for will be better served if I go tome pact and pick shilleaghli as one of the bonus cantrips.
Trickery cleric gets dat polymorph, dimension door and pass without trace tho. Almost redeems them at lower levels
Hey, hey, hey my first ever DnD character was an Oath of the Ancients paladin. You leave my hippie knight alone.
I really want to hear about a specific four character party that doesn't work well. I've been cringing at my current party with a Rouge, paladin, sorceress, and Bard. While we can talk anybody into anything, we can't do much else.
Worst party ever: A party consisting only of loner rogues who have to take turns brooding and leaving the party
A good thing about D&D is that there is basically no "really bad choice".
Let's take the Berserk Barbarian as an example: it's clearly the worse Barbarian subclass but you can still play it and have a lot of fun while being usefull to the team.
The most famous example of this is probably Grog from Critical Role.
Well, in 5E D&D anyway. So many features are packed in to your choice of base class that you really can't go wrong there, but in earlier editions there were enough customizable factors that it was very possible to put yourself into a no-win character build. ...Although, I guess it'd be technically possible to mess up a character on purpose in 5E if you go spellcaster with only utility spells in a game where there will be combat.
yeah grog was a beast. and while jester’s cleric domain may not be the strongest, she’s still definitely useful to the team imo
Francesco Ehhhhh Transmutation Wizard. Everything is too weak imo
that’s what caleb is in c2 and he seems to do a lot of good, although to be fair there’s a generous amount of damage spells he uses as well
A wizard simply can't be bad because even if you pick a "weaker" school you can still use spells from all the other schools (hello fireball).
15:04 Is there a bad rogue? No...no there's not. I love it! My favorite class.
Trickery Cleric gets an incredible set of domain spells from multiple non-cleric classes, thats its real strength
A monk, a bard, a ranger, and a druid. Four people that can do everything, yet do nothing right.
For Paladins in SCAG I’d say weakest is Oath of the Crown
I think them getting access to Spirit Guardians might single-handedly be enough to prevent them from being the worst subclass.
@@GlacialScion aura of warding on it's own is enough to keep Oath of ancients from being the worst.
Also being able to yell "FOR KING AND COUNTRY!" a lot makes up for some weaknesses
It seems like the worst party composition would be a party where everyone is exactly the same class and subclass. At that point no one can cover anybody else's weaknesses. So, if you run into just one bad guy who's your counter opposite or if you're in a situation where you're classes focus is totally worthless, then the entire party is dead.
Entire group of human variant paladins who take magic initiate warlock says hello. Team Cockroach GO! (seriously though the one class groups are hilariously tilted but they're also just as doable depending on their overlap)
@@TeamKhandiKhane eh, maybe. I doubt it though. especially if they've got the same subclass too. 4 paladins though. Seems easy enough, throw down a sphere of dead magic and add in a ghost.
Played a 1st Ed game with 3 paladins and a cleric it's unbalanced mechanically but lots of fun with the right clash of personalities
@@avrilfan0521 oh i'm not saying it can't be fun, it's just a bad party composition.
@@clericofchaos1
Who CAN do anything in that situation?
An archer valour bard is incredible, throw in three levels of ranger for the archery style, collossus slayer and hunters mark? You get very solid ranged damage and the bard spellcasting can concentrate on control spells it does so well.
You should totally make a series where you play that party composition in a campaign and see how well you actually do.
Way of the 4 elements monks Have To Stop Doing Monk Things in order to do spell caster things
IMO 4 elements monk is basically to give monks good options for horde-fights (AoE spells) and fights against flying opponents (ranged spells or fly). It is a class designed to make monks more versatile rather than min-maxing them. It is probably a waste if you have a Wizard or Sorcerer in your party, but for martial-dominated parties or low-magic campaigns it is a good option.
I saw that same hoodie online and almost bought it! Haha nooice!
Hey! Bard of valor works quite effectively. Scenerio #1 you have a party of many people with fluid schedules. You, a wizard, a sorcerer, and a druid are in battle with a lot of hostiles. You only really have one fighter in the party if your aren't in the college of valor. If you choose valor, get reach weapons, or better, a lance.
I had a lot of fun with variant human (crossbow expert feat) Beast Master Ranger... and it was not at all underpowered... and I chose it as so many people complained about it and it clearly needed testing... just have to make sure you keep your beast out of direct danger and plan when he gets involved well as he can be squishy and a bit of pain to replace.
U dont get the magic ressistence from your familiar from pact of the chain
We've always played pact of the chains using the MM sidebars. I only recently saw the either Mearls or Crawford say that it doesn't play that way. We will house rule that it does anyway.
Nerdarchist Dave
Nerdarchy I agree Dave, play the familiars as written. Why include a familiar sidebar for those creatures if you don’t even use it?
As far as monks are concerned, I've always hated that the monk is themed after Shaolin monastery monks but people keep naming their abilities as Ki abilities- Shaolin monks use Chi as their internal energy and life force and even though it is mostly synonymous to Ki which is the Japanese word for the same principle concept, the monks that are being referred to are Chinese not Japanese and should be using Chi points instead of Ki points. But I didn't write the book, so I suppose I can't be faulted or change it.
I blame ninjas and samurai.
Nerdarchist Dave
The worst party is the one that doesn't work together. You could make a party of the best subclasses, which all have the race(subrace) that benefits that class(subclass) the most, and if they don't work together, everything falls apart. Likewise, worst subclasss with the worst race(subrace) combination could work well, providing that folks know how to work together.
Great video. For my group, we choose to play what is fun, not what is the most powerful.
What in the world do you guys have against Gish classes??? I've played many gishes (Bladesinger, Hexblade, Sword Bard), and I think you really understate the variety they bring to a group. Any fighter can enter a battle and find that they only have, what, 3 or 4 things to do? A Bladesinger in the fray has *every* option available to them. Nuke a clump of monsters! Focus on a single target and slice and dice! Throw out some control spells to change the battlefield! Counterspell the enemy wizard! Did you know that the AC granted by Bladesong is BONUS AC? That means it STACKS on top of Mage Armor! A Bladesinger with 20 INT and Mage Armor has 18 AC while Bladesinging, BEFORE you add Dex Modifier; that's as much as a man in full plate! You pit a Bladesinger one on one against a Battlemaster Fighter and I *guarantee* you the Bladesinger will dance circles around him. Spells like Blur or Haste give you an edge that other melee classes simply *can't deal with*, and if you haven't simply carved your opponent into fine slices, you can target his weak saves just for fun. You CAN'T tell me that a Bladesinger in the fray doesn't belong there, because a Bladesinger is a one-man army.
And this goes beyond just bias into sheer hypocrisy because you guys seem to LOVE the Paladin, who is a gish class right out of the box! I'm playing a Paladin in a Tomb of Annihilation game and BOY do I feel like a gish when I'm spending my turns healing and using Lay On Hands to keep my party up instead of doing fight-things!
LOL, we think gishes are mechanically inferior. That doesn't mean don't like them. My main was a gish from 1st-20th level. Mountain dwarf war wizard eldritch knight fighter. Super tanky usually had a lot of options. But didn't hit as hard as the fighter. His spells weren't as good as the bard.
A ton of fun to play. The problem with gish subclasses is all there abilities are geared to making them good at doing something they weren't meant to be good at mechanically.
Haste great until it gets dispelled or your concentration broken. Speaking from experience.
Nerdarchist Dave
Gish are fun. It is simply a case of by the numbers gish specialties given to classes are inferior. You have more options, but in optimum conditions for your class the gish falls behind the specialized options designed to build on your previous abilities.
That is what this video is all about. Which class options are the best and worst based solely on numbers. What works for you, your group, and your adventure will determine the best and worst options.
Add the spell mirror image with the blade singer
Yeah, other comments points taken. I love my Valour Bard. So much fun and so many options. Such a multiple use class that I have never found to be boring to play. Worst choice maybe, still more than capable of positively contributing to any situation. I would like to have the College of Lore Bardic Inspiration though.
Honestly to me i usually prefer playing gish classes. I love the idea of weaving magic into melee, though I personally hate the thought of multiclassing. I played a Bladesinger for a couple sessions for AL and with the exception of my first level being a level 1 wizard with 7hp, I actually was a very effective melee combatant who had an ac of 17 at 2nd level, backed up with wizard spells.
Trickery cleric is an amazing subclass.
Yes! Also, they get Pass without trace at 3rd level!
They have POLYMORPH and the other clerics dont have that PLUS it's a power spell
Literally the best domain spells. And the class feature they were bitching about(blessing of the trickster) is insanely good for the level you get it. It would be way too powerful if you could just have advantage on stealth checks whenever you wanted. Honestly the only thing that upset me about trickery cleric is the lack of access to invisibility spells.
pass w/o trace and blessing of the trickster have both saved the party’s asses numerous times in cr lol
@@shadycactus6146 exactly!! They help the team plus have POWERFUL spells at their disposal, I am disappointed at their lack of vison other than just raw combat power
It seems you guys don't understand how frontline works in D&D. Specifically referencing bladesinger here, but they have high AC, which means they are getting hit less and it makes up for low HP (especially if you take into account shield/blur/etc). On the flipside, you have something like a Barbarian who has a low AC (gets hit more) but uses health as their defensive option. Ilusion is far more useless than a bladesinger. Shoot, you could go full Pew Pew bladesinger (without getting into melee) and still be stronger than an illusionist wizard. Great vid tho, love watching these.
I just finished playing gish which regularly got his AC up to 34 with shield and no it didn't make up the lower hp. Things that can hit you hit hard or every hit is a crit. I loved playing that character, but the simple truth was the bard could out cast me and the pure fighter out fought me.
I had my moments where I'd shine. Action surge and steel wind striking twice in the same round always a blast or dropping a fireball at my feet, using absorb elements at a high level slot, and then taking my hasted attack was a lot of fun.
The idea of playing a bladesinger that hangs back is also silly. All your abilities are dedicated to not hanging back. When all your subclasses abilities are dedicated to making you good something your not you are going to be mechanically suboptimal.
That being said it doesn't mean that it isn't a fun character to play.
Nerdarchist Dave
Barbarians have high damage reduction. It is superior to AC at higher levels.
@@GeorgeMonet I agree. But their defensive resource is health is my point.
Fighter with Shield and Counterspell is every DM's worst nightmare.
Bladesinger is actually good. They get light armor proficiency and, as a bonus action twice per short rest, can add their intelligence to their AC and concentration checks for a minute. If you knew nothing else about them, that would sound pretty good. Being able to make weapon attacks, gaining a weapon proficiency, the acrobatics checks, and the other benefits are just extras on top. At level two, a Bladesinger can bump his AC up as high as 24 by using shield.
Let's combine this with what's widely considered to be one of the worst sixth level spells: Tenser's Transformation. Assuming we TWF and took Warcaster, we now have a wizard with bonus hit points who can absorb damage with his spell slots (Bladesinger). He has advantage, proficiency in, and adds his intelligence to his concentration checks, meaning he won't lose the form any time soon. And he has advatage on all attacks, of which he'll make three per round, and adds an extra 2d12 force damage to each attack. With scimitars, that's 3d6+6d12 damage dice per turn. Since those are dice, they're doubled on a crit, and Bladesinger elves can obviously take Elven Accuracy. If you happen to have two levels of Paladin to smite with wizard spell slots, that's just icing on the cake. For ten minutes a day, this character is a backup fighter outdamaging everyone except maybe the GWM barbarian.
Why do this? Because Legendary Resistance will put a stop to just about everything else the wizard might do, but it doesn't protect the boss from weapon attacks.
Worst party:
Wizard, dump con, low dex
Wizard, dump con, low dex
Wizard, dump con, low dex
Wizard, dump con, low dex
Then, how about
Wizard, minimum int, dump con
Fighter, minimum str, dump con.
Tricky cleric, dump con, low str, basically no heal magic, only weird spells.
barbarian with highest int in the party, low con, low str.
Yeah I know, but I was poking fun at what most people (Including me) thought this video was going to be from the title, that's all.
A team of all dwarf battle ragers would be terrible. All throwing themselves into battle, yet no one can heal them
No cleric in the worst party, just a Valor bard with healing word and cure wounds