The Sigewinne Discourse is Getting Ridiculous
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
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I think I understand the other side more now. People’s complaint about her being “bad” isn’t just in relation to power, but overall satisfaction towards the very poor kit design. Fair play.
Edit: some still disagree and say her power is significantly worse than Kokomi. I feel often I have a different Kokomi than you guys. I’ll do some more testing ~
What you should also consider is: even if we were to agree that Sigewinne and Kokomi are equal in terms of value... that still does not really make a great argument in Sigewinne's favor.
A new unit that is barely as good as a 3 year old character (that a large % of players already have)... isn't much of a flex. And it's basically the main reason why Sigewinne's pull rate is so low.
If we were to believe that she is "as good" as Kokomi, a character that many of us already have, as opposed to "substantially better in all areas", then there is no gained value for the players. In that scenario, her only value becomes her design.
Which is most critics' point: her kit offers no value. So it's down to whether or not you like her design. And 4 years into the game, and with a new region just around the corner... isn't a good enough incentive, for most players.
She's cute, but not THAT cute, lol. Of course she's gonna be skipped.
@@ligeiasiren4290yeah totally fair, I do agree she has no value
But also so do most characters in genshin
as I said multiple times I’m not arguing people should pull her
@@JelloImpact you forgot about Taser and Burgeon.
However, I think the main disconnect is that there are 2 ways of looking at power, 1, which most in the TC community use, is "how much does this character do for teams", vs 2, which is more common in the non tc community (though I think more of those use 1 than most think would) is "how strong are teams that this character can use". Most in this comment section, including me, use 1, while it seems you use 2.
imo she just doesn't offer enough over other 5* limited healers now (at C0)
kokomi: can be used on field for (consistent enough) hydro app
baizhu: both E and Q are heals, provide a tiny shielding, and can buff bloom. also just have enough dendro app to make quicken a thing.
xianyun: single-handedly created a new meta, do we need to say more.
sigewinne heals yes, buffs off-field skill application yes, but at C0 the bonus is super small and for only a few instances.
at c2 though i think her buffs become significant enough that she's worth the team slot. but c2 is not exactly budget friendly.
EDIT: oh and her BoL serves basically no purpose imo? it's just a simple 5 energy refund the heck. unless in the future we have some character that needs team-wide BoL value for damage/support abilities....
I think she's well designed, she just wasn't designed with the current meta in mind.
Her buffs scales well with vaporizes for Furina, for example, and her small window burst fits well to the double DPS format that you were talking in previous videos. One team we can test nowadays that actually flows well (even though it won't be meta) is Sigewinne, Furina, Nahida and Dehya DPS. Sigewinne and Furina can vape on Dehya+Nahida burning, and Dehya can vape when the enemies don't have Nahida's mark.
The main problem with Sigewinne's kit is the C1 problem that Wrio and Chiori also have (they have a "limitation" that the C1 improves/solves). But besides that, Sigewinne just encourages a different kind of teambuilding that people don't care currently (because they only think about the current meta). It's fair to not recommend Sigewinne considering that, but I would still call that they are "overreacting" on saying she's bad, even design wise
All that she needed was a "Gives BoL every time she overheals" and boom, you got a niche but useful character. Harmonic Whimsy and Absolution on any sword user, all you need is Sigewinne
That would make her even worse. She'd endanger people that need heals, because she'd have to pay off all the debt she gave them before she could heal them. She'd add nothing to Arl in combat, because Arl can't be healed, which means no overhealing. So you'd really only have some synergy with Clor, and Clor already turns healing into BoL.
That wouldn’t even be that Niche since it literally would enable a good dps set to be used on any character
she would be just like Furina but for BoL, I agree
This is THE BEST idea for Sigewinne's kit I've seen anywhere. Not OP at all and definitely a niche nobody else could fill. It would have been perfect for setting her apart from Kokomi.
This is definitely how I was expecting her to turn out
idk why they release healers without having some kinda supportive niche as well. like imaginge is she had defense shred or something, that would make her so much more valuable considering that lisa is the only c0 defense shredder in the entire game
ngl if her buff wasn't limited she'd be much better.
lol i never thought i will see you here, i remember you from re:zero reaction days.
Meanwhile, Lisa being able to shred defense at c0 since the beginning of the game
(still I agree that we need more def shred)
@@pulkit200 ayyy i remember ya as well lol. from thejetrod right? or ruffsenpai, or maybe both
@@usmanya5110yeah if only sigewinne skill buff is not limited with stacks but limited by time ex expires after 12 secs or smt then maybe she can really have something to compete to other healers just like xianyun who buffs plunge and baizhu buff dendro.
Sigewinne has been a FANTASTIC overworld character and that's what I think she is. She is a comfortable, easy to build, more casual character and there's nothing wrong with that. Most people don't do the abyss. We spend most of the game in the overworld and I think she's really nice for that.
True, but I still feel like there were some mistakes made with her. Why does her skill dmg increase have to be 10 stacks shared amongst the party, and not like Shenhe’s where everyone has their own stacks, for example?
She is a comfort character and that’s fine, but stuff like that just make me think they weren’t fully considering her whole kit. She is a comfort character and can stay one, but if you made even the slightest tweaks to her kit, she would feel a lot better to use outside of that.
@@Hiya8partyz I agree with you on that part. It really is a c1 bait and it could still be better..and if she is in preparation of the double DPS predictions for Natlan, the skill cd is just too long without sacrificial. I still love her though.
If sigewinne is a downgrade from kokomi, I just wanna say that barbara is free.
DPS BARBARA ON TOP 😎
Yep,and as a healer barbara does not need onflield time,or she can be a healing driver. While this girl with 2.5sec watergun...
if you wanna watergun just use neuvilette. The ultimate just does not make sense to me,like its missing some key extra effects
Mina… GAMBATENEEEE!!!!!! 🙃
Look, pull whoever you want-this game is not hard, and you could argue that it is more about collecting characters than optimizing your DPS.
However, if you're talking purely about meta, you do a disservice to people by underselling how bad she is. If it was purely about healing, then they would be comparable, but it's not. If you removed the attack buff from Bennett's kit, he would go from one of the best units in the game to one of the worst.
The reason Kokomi is good is because before Furina, she was the best off-field Hydro applicator in the game for characters who do not perform normal attacks without exception. After Furina, she has a larger AoE than Furina, and she offers role consolidation as she is also a healer and can carry TTDS.
Sigewinne's only upside is that she can carry Elegy. She has some of the worst Hydro application in the game-it's single target, applies 1 unit of Hydro, and does not have 100% uptime. To add insult to injury, it shares ICD with her charged attack, so you can't use that to apply more.
Looking at versatility, Kokomi is good in any team that needs off-field Hydro application and either cannot perform normal attacks, needs healing, or both-so Bloom, Freeze, Vape, Electro-charged, Quickbloom. As we get more characters, this utility will only improve.
If we're talking about her best team, she is part of arguably the best Nilou Bloom team, which is arguably the best AoE team in the game and a team that has the advantage of being able to work with characters you would not normally use, like Collei, Dendro Traveler, and Candace, which frees up other characters for your second Abyss team.
Sigewinne is good in one team-mono Hydro. She is a minor upgrade at best, since replacing her with XQ and using Jean as a healer is almost as good. Furthermore, mono Hydro as a team will always be limited by the fact that Neuvillette exists-his best teams are essentially mono Hydro teams, and any buff to mono Hydro will also buff Neuvillette, so it will always live in his shadow, and Sigewinne will never be on a Neuvillette team. Mono Hydro also takes a ton of good units, including XQ, Yelan, Furina, and Kazuha, and if your account doesn't have all of them, you're severely limited in your second Abyss team. OH and if you need any kind of shield breaking (like in the current Abyss rotation) she is worse than Kokomi even in her best team.
Ultimately, comparing Sigewinne to Kokomi is a lot like comparing Qiqi to Bennett. Qiqi is a way better healer, but her application is poor, and she does almost nothing else. If you consider Qiqi to be one tier below Bennett, then sure, Sigewinne is one tier below Kokomi.
Agreed.
To piggyback I also feel like people are being disingenuous trying to boil this down to exclusively a "Sigewinne vs Kokomi" thing when in reality, Sigewinne is competing with all the healers who are used in Furina teams.
Bennett gives a massive buff to your attack, Kuki triggers hyperblooms, Xianyun VV shreds and enables plunges, Jean VV shreds, Baizhu can offer minor dendro off-field application and gives interruption resistance. So you have to ask what does Sigewinne uniquely offer that other healer she has to compete with don't? She has really bad hydro application and a mediocre Skill buff. Being barely an upgrade over on-field Kokomi (who actually has utility outside of Furina teams) is not a good pitch for limited unit.
And the whole "she'll get buffed by Natlan" comes off as cope. Because the reality there is a character only sees their value skyrocket when their kit uniquely synergizes with a new comp or an overtuned DPS. I feel like at this point we have enough game knowledge to see she doesn't have a lot of good strengths outside of her healing. So unless we get something like a broken DPS who gets stronger the more Bond of Life units are on their team. lol
@@crimsonECH1DNA I cannot understand why Jello compared Sige to Noel before Barabara
@@crimsonECH1DNA
Sigewinne gives you a massive 20% of her HP as Bond of Life on an 18-second cooldown. Assuming she has 60k HP, that's a 12k Bond of Life. If they actually expand on this mechanic in Natlan and we don't get a single healer (of any element, since Sigewinne might as well not have one) that can give you more than a 12k Bond every 18 seconds, it's going to be the most boring game mechanic ever conceived.
You’re first point is the most important one. I’m still clearing abyss with 1.x characters, maybe one day they’ll add content where we need to min max our teams but I’m doubtful.
Neuv is the best aoe team in the game nga
"Kokomi has three good teams"
Kokomi is also amazing in taser teams (both double electro variant and double hydro with Furina variant) and pretty strong in burgeon teams. Hell, she can be competent driver for hyperbloom as well.
Meanwhile Sigewinne is hard tied to Furina to function and isn't even that much of an upgrade over Kokomi there. THat's why she's bad - she doesn't justify her niche with her strength.
exactly!!! i've had kokomi since her first banner and she has only become more and more flexible since her launch, especially because of dendro. her hyperbloom driver variant literally carries me through abyss. saying she only has three teams is a disservice!!
Kokomi quick bloom is my go to when I'm going up against harder content and still my favorite team to run in any gameplay I do
Ive used Seigweinne without Furina and shes permanently on my team. I love her and glad i wished for her with no regrets.
Sure, Sigewinne's benefit over Kokomi in a Furina team isn't huge enough to justify pulling for her. She doesn't replace Kokomi and she isn't to Furina what Nilou is to Nahida, but depending on your Team comps and setups it's still worth running Sigewinne over other healers, especially when Kokomi's better suited for teams that don't run Furina, boosting both your Furina Team and your Nilou/Bloom/whatever else you need Kokomi for, but of course if you're min maxing, then you probably have stronger Furina teams in which neither Kokomi nor Sigewinne would have a slot in. I for one don't have/want Neuvillete and definitely rather have Kokomi in my Hyper/Bloom teams rather than in my Furina teams, in which she doesn't do much but heal. So Sigewinne is definitely an upgrade to me and makes my team comps more flexible.
Do you think she would pair with Neuvilette? I got him and Sigewinne, but I don't have Furina.
they all can't be winners. save them primos
There are winners and then there are Sigewinners 😂
Nah, I'm pulling for the cuties
@@fapuloes
Officer this one
Whats up dr. @fapuloes
I didnt pull for sigewinne but i don't have anything against her as a character necessarily. I think her design is cute, but to me personally, her kit felt more like standard banner kit rather than limited banner kit.
Id reckon they’ll put her on the standard banner
My perspective as someone who’s been a Kokomi main since 2.1:
- Sigewinne definitely isn’t bad in a vacuum, however I think where a lot of the “worst limited 5*” takes are coming from is her pull value being so low. Currently there’s practically no team where you’d want to use her specifically over another unit, and even if there were, it’s not worth it for most of the player base to pull for her just for 1 or 2 teams over someone else like Kokomi who can be slotted into a lot more teams (Such as ones that weren’t mentioned in the video like Navia double hydro, hyperbloom, taser, etc). I’ve heard people say that Sigewinne can be better than Kokomi in monohydro for example, but as I said above, for most players they’d rather pick a unit who’s slightly worse in one team but can be slotted into so many more.
- Sure Sigewinne is similar to Kokomi on paper, however she falls short in comparison to Kokomi in quite a few places. People have obviously said her hydro app & hydro app uptime is a lot worse, but on top of that, she also has less overall healing than Kokomi at c0 too, because while Sigewinne heals the whole party with her skill, Kokomi has healing not only from her skill, but also from her burst + her passive giving her healing bonus. Sigewinne also doesn’t have the capabilities to be as good of an on field driver as Kokomi because she’s a bow user and not a catalyst. She also can’t take advantage of supportive sets & weapons like TTDS or ToTM as well as Kokomi can.
- Overall, I personally think Sigewinne would’ve been much better if she was designed as a sort of reverse Baizhu - having strong shields and weak healing, this would’ve given her her own role without being outshone by Kokomi as much and it would’ve been great to get another 5* shielder as Zhongli is currently our only one.
Edit: Also Jello saying that Kokomi’s healing isn’t enough to keep up with Furina ( 10:12 ) is completely untrue, Kokomi’s healing from her skill alone is more than enough to keep your party members above 50% hp. Even in teams where you can’t onfield Kokomi, you can just use Prototype Amber for some extra healing by burst swapping into Kokomi to reset her jellyfish duration and to proc the weapon’s passive.
I generally agree but i'm pretty sure navia double hydro has siggy be better than koko if you use furina and or chiori
Yeah, this is kind of where I'm at, she's "fine" in specific teams (what 5 star isn't though?), but her pull value is absolutely atrocious.
@@mejrin2984 I disagree but I can see your point, Sigewinne’s skill buffing is shared across party members and because she’s a bow user in practise she’s going to be doing a lot less for the team than a TTDS + ToTM Kokomi is in my opinion, sure you can run ToTM on Sigewinne, but her skill uptime at c0 is atrocious. If her skill buffing wasn’t shared across party members then I’d agree with you though.
The monohydro is misleading since the best monohydro comp is just Furina c2 + Neuvillete. Anything else is coping, since you can also use Yelan Xingchiu combo for fast elemental application.
Thanks for the insights.
I also feel that Kokomi has a better pull value than Sigewinne.
Kokomi :
- Way better hydro application (this is big for a hydro unit)
- Can use ttds
- Circle impact (a bit)
- More overall healing (Need on-field time which is a downside)
- Jellyfish's heals are low compared to Sige's skill
- Can be a hydro driver
Sigewinne
- A quick swap unit
- Comfier to play
- Take very little to no field time
- Elemental skill "Shenhe"
- Can use Elegy
- More stable healing
- Full-party healing via skill like Baizhu
- Very good for casual players
Personally I think she is a little under-tuned at C0 following the trend of Fontaine characters that gain a lot from earlier constellations as a result their C0 seems a bit incomplete (for example Wriothesley).
I think they should have made her C1 into her base kit (from 10 stacks at C0 to 18 stacks at C1).
Unlike Kokomi that probably has the worst constellations in the game but that shows how well-tuned her base kit is.
So yeah. And Sigewinne is not made to be an element applicator if she is, she can do too many things which is not good for other characters' relevancy. We can see this in Baizhu's kit how weak his dendro application is.
I think she's not the worst. Maybe Albedo/Yoimiya is the worst.
Another point:
In the mono hydro team (which is the only thing you talk about in this video), barbara on even r1 proto amber(c0) is very good. She needs about 160% er(even lower if you r5 your amber), has constant healing, her burst on full hp heals A LOT. And most of all, she's a free unit on f2p weapon
But obviously you glossed over her.
Also C2 Barbra (which a lot of people have) gives hydro dmg bonus to your team buffing them the same if not better than Siegwinne.
i think he made an entire video about barbara where he said this
YES FINALLY SOMEBODY SAID THIS
BARBARA IS BETTER
DPS BARBARA ON TOP 😎
YES, THANK YOU!
As someone who pulled and crowned Sigewinne, I don't think you're making a great case by comparing her to a 3 year old character. And even within that favorable comparison, she's still a step below? That's not good.
Her kit feels thrown together and her value and versatility are a joke, especially when you consider how broken many of the other characters are in this game. She's basically an accessory to Furina, which puts her on about the same level as Charlotte with a couple constellations. It's frankly unacceptable that 5-stars are still released in this state.
Hydronation finished without a hydro 4 star
Yeah! That’s pretty damn nuts actually…
sigewinne lol
@@lil_Perro Sigewinne was designed as a 4 star that HoYo bumped up to 5 star and no one will ever convince me otherwise.
Wdym we already got the best hydro 4 star xingqui in his Fontaine outfit XD
The way everyone forgot about Barbara.
She gives a full party heal from her burst, which works perfectly with Furina. On top of that, her skill also heals, and if you’re standing close to the enemy (which most DPS’ will do anyway), then you get solid hydro application. Still, if both her E and Q aren’t enough, you can spam her normal attacks for more hydro.
Sigewinne doesn’t have many good F2P weapons. Fav theoretically and that 3 star with an awful passive. Barbara on the other hand can use either Prototype Amber for more healing, or TTDS for attack buff.
Also, Sigewinne buffs E skill with her passive. Well, with one of her constellation (which most have at this point in the game), Barbara gives hydro dmg bonus, so Furina will benefit from that too.
Literally the only thing Sigewinne has which Barbara doesn’t is that 2.5 second DPS window, which no one uses anyway.
So what i wanted to say is: Barbara on top, don’t waste pulls on Sigewinne, thank you.
I thought I was taking crazy pills when he compared her to Noel but not Barbara
Yep. Barbara is basically a Kokomi who traded range for mobility and I always find myself choosing her over Kokomi for that very reason.
sorry jello, im not strong enough to inhale almost 20 minutes worth of sigecope
omg same
Nothing like that, he didn't even try to defend her like others.
*begins charging hydrocanon at you*
😂
@@SyokoolBut the thing is he tries to justify that sigewinne and kokomi are on equal footing which is clearly not the case.
So, I didnt want another “kokomi” incident to occur at sigewinne (even though I was a kokomi defender back then), so I took a step back, asked a bunch of casual players that owns sigewinne, read her kit fully, see a lot of videos and perspective, and try to find where does she properly shine outside of her aesthetic and cuteness which doesn’t account for her “usefulness”. Here what I want to say, HYV have been dropping characters to prepare for future patches like kuki got buffed with dendro, so I do hope sigewinne gets buffed by natlan, and if she doesn’t, here are some side sigewinne shines :
Also, You have to realize, sigewinne is NOT an abyss unit, what I mean by that is, yes she can be used, yes she can be good, but most of the time she will be Sub-Optimal in abyss (at this current state as in writing this), you would rather have other healer, other support, other characters than sigewinne for abyss
So
1. She’s a comfort unit, she is a unit that excels in purely making you feel safe in content whether it’s overworld, abyss, theatre, events, etc. she heals a lot and fast without needing energy, this what makes her differ from Kokomi that can only heal 1 target at a time unless you use her burst and even then it’s fairly slow and you need enemy to do so, while sigewinne does not, you can just walk, press E, get full heal to your team in less than like 5-7 seconds and move on, no energy needed, no enemy target needed, and it’s much more significant when you’re exploring overworld where you need to top up your hp but need it fast and need it for the whole team
2. Speaking of exploration, sigewinne non combat passive, her healing passively when underwater may sound niche and it is niche but most character skills/passive that are considered OP for overworld (Yelan E, Kazuha E, Etc) does not work underwater, and healing skills also does not work, which makes underwater exploration annoying, sigewinne passive makes it so it’s more bearable, ofc once you 100% your exploration, her passive usefulness will be less, but until then it’s an amazing QoL passive
3. Her burst, short, aoe, but does decent dmg, and cannot be staggered, if any of you have explored for chests or do quests, that is the best burst to clear out trash mobs in overworld, press Q, nuke everyone in that range, while not being afraid of getting staggered, is the quickest way to finish those mob hilichurl and get that chest you need, it’s like having an ult and you’re done sweeping the field
4. Theatre, this game mode right now (as of writing this) does not allow hydro characters (but I think sigewinne is in the guest characters) and when hydro rotation arrives, sigewinne will be a great unit there, is she good? Is she OP? Is she amazing in those content? No, not really, she’s as good in abyss as in theatre, BUT, theatre needs “throwable” characters what I mean by that is you need characters you won’t regret using their limited 2 time usage in the early stages, sigewinne makes you can save your OP strong characters for the boss stages while you can use sigewinne on the trash waves so your main characters won’t need to use their limited 2 uses and this is huge considering other hydro units is much better than her in terms of meta/battle type mechanics, while sigewinne as we talked about before is good against trash mobs.
Overall, is sigewinne good? Nah, at least not now, she is a functioning unit, and she is a QoL unit, that helps you more in exploration and overworld rather than end game content, is that bad? No not really, there’s a reason why Yelan is favored for exploration, or Kazuha, or wanderer, cause at the end of the day, as little as we think about overworld, we spend 80% of the time playing on the overworld, so QoL characters like sigewinne will have insane effects as you play her, she may not have insane impacts like Arle especially in battle based content, but who knows, maybe natlan will buff her
I like this response because most people don't actually do the abyss. The majority of people play casually and I can say that Sigewinne has been FANTASTIC for the overworld. She is super comfortable. Every fight ends with my team at full health. You're absolutely right about the ease of being able to burst and wipe out mobs. Building her effectively is way easier than most characters as well. I think she is a great pull for casual players in what they actually spend most of their time doing.
As far as #4 goes, Theater highlights how lackulster she is. Poor hydro app means she doesn't bring that, and she doesn't really offer anything else as well. Enemies are also pretty low level, so team wide healing doesn't matter that much. She also can't be paired with Furina, which is the crutch that tends to get used to justify her as being a solid character. Of all the healers I had in that, she was the one I wanted to use the least.
@@Axterix13 why can’t she be paired with furina in theatre, I quite certain I said “when hydro rotation comes”, not only that, yes she is lackluster, but I also stated that she is a throwable character to save your good characters in boss stages, think of it like this, you use a certain “alternative” unit in abyss first half so you can save and use Bennett (which is strong) in second half, is the alternative unit bad? No. It clearly able to sub in Bennett, is it good? Ofc not, it’s sub optimal, but is it important? Yes. Because it alleviates the need for Bennett in first half making your second half stronger or can be covered by Bennett. Same logic applies to sigewinne. This is the first ever rotation of theatre, we don’t know how much they will buff the enemy (if they ever will), when the hydro rotation comes, using sigewinne can make you save your OP hydro units like XQ, Yelan, Neuvi, and even furina if you don’t want to pair her, for the boss stages, because the game mode Forces you to use 4 units to start the battle, if it wasn’t forcing 4 units then the argument falls, plus you also said the enemy is weak, hence it strengthens my 3rd point which her burst is good for clearing mob waves fast, if you kept on insisting she’s “Only” a healer while disregarding her quite strong wave clearing burst, then you a haven’t seen her full skill potential yet, you can always pick the waves of small mobs in those cards and slam in sigewinne burst, clear it quickly, and call it a day, (also her E trap works well in tower defense against smaller mobs)
Probably the most reasonable comment I've seen under this video. Well summarized!
Kokomi has better hydro application that drives the hydro element. That's all there is
right? sigetrash`s hydro application is just not there hydro mc is better :D
My man if your using Furina in the team,you don't need that extra hydro app from Kokomi unless your playing Xiangling or Double Dendro
@@mostaphabahy okay gross. Sigewinne really doesn’t deserve to be considered worse than Hydro Traveler. That kit was an absolute travesty!
@@sauravthegreat Sigewinne doesn't have a team where shines thats why. As for Kokomi, she has a lot of teams She shines, Nilou bloom and Ayaka freeze etc.. and those teams have one in thing in common, it's Kokomi's hydro application helps a lot. Furina's hydro application won't help as much in those teams
@@MJAY552 Sure but pretty sure that's not the teams the video was talking about
The video was talking Furina teams
Lots of copium and denial in this video, I honestly cannot thumb you up this time.
I think it makes sense , most of the online vocal majority are not avg players. We optimize our teams and dmg for the best results which is why we don't consider healing as smtg valuable while for a casual layer its very valuable. So I think shes a char designed for players which are not online.
Added to that, most of the loudest voices don't have her. They've read her kit, but have no practical experience with using her.
That said, as someone who does have her, she's definitely low pull value. Functional, yup, but not a good component for building teams with.
I completely disagree on "if you think Kokomi is good/bad you have to say the same about Sigewinne" Kokomi's is comparable or better in a majority of the teams she plays in compared to Sigewinne. Mono Hydro is the only team where Sigewinne out performs her and even then its not by enough to ever justify pulling Sigewinne. The other big thing to understand is that Kokomi applies a ton of Hydro with her jellyfish. Sigewinne barely gets to even consider her part of the element because her Hydro application is so bad. This isn't really noticeable in Mono Hydro because you have 2-3 other characters applying Hydro and the team doesn't really care about any reactions. But in solo Hydro and reaction situations Sigewinne falls completely behind. Kokomi can sustain a team completely on her own and applies Hydro consistently enough to be able to enable all sorts of reactions.
People really need to drop the "SIgewinne is better in Mono Hydro" cope. It's so insanely wrong. All testings to reach that scenario were done in extremely unfavorable situations for Kokomi and not within Mono Hydro niche (which is Single Target), and even then it took a C1R1 Sigewinne to compare to a C0 Kokomi. On fieldinng Yelan barely adds 50k damage to the entire rotation due to how overstacked you already are in DMG% buffs. Kokomi adds 500k damage herself, go look at sheets and sims if you think she doesn't. Sigewinne buffs add 20% damage to Furina, that's 100k since Furina does 500k damage per rotation. Sigewinne is crazy worse in Mono Hydro outside of multi waved content.
repsectfully, i dont think she gets enough 'hate' for her kit. people comparing her to release kokomi saying 'kokomi was this bad too and look at her now' are frankly incorrect. kokomi was never bad, and our understanding of the game's mechanics, especially as a community has increased drastically since kokomis banner, to the point where we can easily say that sigewinne is bottom 3 limited 5 star characters (albedo om). people saying that shes worse than dehya are simply just wrong, but that doesnt mean that shes much better than her.
ngl she kinda feels similiar to dehya. defensive supports with on field dps burst.
I'd rather a Dehya. If only Sigewinne applied more hydro, then she'd be my choice.
@@usmanya5110yup
dehya is unironically better 💀 you can use her in yoimiya/tao double hydro, wanderer double pyro, any team with c0 neuvillette, burn melt ganyu/rizzley, mono pyro lyney, etc.
even if she's often worse than thoma, she's still more functional compared to sige in her own teams relative to kokomi
om om om om
@@usmanya5110if sigewinne were pyro she would be better, something dehya like, no joke
"The Sigewinne Discourse is getting ridiculous"
My Brother in Christ, you were a major contributor to that selfsame Discourse.
I'm not surprised most Genshin fans despise their content creators at this point tbh.
Kokomi is good bc of her hydro app, and she did have her freeze teams even on release. Other than Furina, Sigewinne is lacking the units that she needs to make her shine. My prediction is that they're going to release BoL units that unlike Arle and Chlorinde want to get rid of their BoLs to get more damage, which is where Sigewinne will shine since she receives healing bonus with other BoLs. If that doesn't happen, she'll at least gain a little more value if they release more off-field skill damage dealers
I also love the fact that everyone has just forgotten Baizhu exists. Like I've seen people argue for Sigewinne's value because she's the only person who heals all the team on E as if he hasn't existed since Sumeru. People don't bring him up because only 2 people (including me) pulled for him but he's like a solid option in a lot of reaction based teams, whereas Sigewinne shines better in less reaction dependent teams.
I don't see bol coming bak personally
Dude, we're at the end of the region, Bond of Life is done after Fontaine. Unless they release Fontaine characters in Natlan and other regions
@@danedavid6925 Leaks are currently saying otherwise. The leaks are rather sussy though so lol
@eliwhite6159 ohh I don't look at character leaks like that, only the ones where there's footage of gameplay I look at like when Emilie got shown.
@@danedavid6925 Yeah I dont trust the current leaks bc the kits look like copypasted garbage. But I do believe there is a possibility of BoL coming back, even if its slim--having that mechanic + the constant damage felt by burning in Natlan might be key to making a meta that feels different from the Fontaine meta
The worst thing about Sigwinne is that she has only 10 ticks for skill damage boost. And that is for only one unit in the team. If she had 12-13 ticks of skill damage boost for teams as whole such as Yunjin or Shenhe damage boost. She would have been a really good unit for a skill damage focused team. For example Nahida, Furina, Sigwinne and Kuki or Raiden
Kokomi feels SO much better than Sigewinne in mono hydro. Kokomi has interruption resistance and endless application... On fielding Yelan feels like a waste on that team. Sigewinne is sub-par at best. The negative community reception is warranted.
Exactly, if you run Kokomi with Xingqiu in monohydro you won’t ever be staggered which alone makes her version superior imo. Xingqiu also has hydro res shred so using him in place of Yelan or even Kazuha isn’t much of a downgrade.
On field yelan in that team made me lose all respect for Jamie, it's levels of cope that I've never seen before
agreed
@@Forakus i think the the only advantage of using yelan on field is VV swirl for multiwave but since yelan and furina still get buffed by kazuha's dmg buff and both dish out so much idk if that's really a big problem
@@Forakus whats wrong with on field yelan? she gets her own damage bonus from her ult.
Ima keep it real jello. As a limited five star in current genshin her kit is unacceptable. At C0 R1 she feels like a C0 four star with a f2p weapon. It'd be one thing if she was a four star, made in the past like albedo, or added to standard banner like dehya but she isn't. She should've had way more skill buffing capability, interruption resistance from her c2 in her base kit, and at least a bit more dmg and hp scaling basics. She has poor hydro app, barely any skill buffing since it gets eaten up so fast and no dmg. She literally only provides great teamwide healing which is great but not enough to warrant being a limited 5 star in current genshin. There is no reason why she couldnt have been buffed or made into a 4 star.
Genshin is just greedy
She was always going to be a 5*, just that hoyo really effed up the kit
Her burst compares to a Neuvillette charge attack. She’s a healer that can deal damage. I think she’s great for casual play. Plus with abyss being replaced half the time with the new end game mode she can be useful there because she’s the only hydro character in it.
I think she was designed with constellations and her weapon in mind because they fix her base kit from C0.
@@ThePenguinsKingher burst total dmg is less than one neuvillette CA (and that's all her dmg).
She can't be a healer who can do dmg if kokomi have the double amount of dps
@@lolidemon3163her design only worthy of 4 star tho
Definitely questioning what you say after this video now.
When you think about how Yoimiya and Eula are supposedly the worst limited 5* and yet theres many people doing well with those characters, it goes to show how you can make anything in this game work.
Yeah, having fun or being a meta player. Both are correct and people shouldn't try to justify their gameplay.
Yoimiya is no where near the worse
@@lolidemon3163she is in klee eula albedo tier
@@alexsjarifabsolutely not she is.
@@alexsjarif yoimiya does similar damage to xiangling. This is a compliment.
All the eula and yoimiya mains are coming after you 💀
Meh I'm a Yoimiya main and she is indeed very mid unless you base your entire account and a bit of your credit card bill around making her work. Then she's GREAT!
Nah. My Eula feels perfect with Beacon, c2 Furina, c6 Mika and slave *cough cough* (Raiden). Just needed a "little" investment to shine.
I have quite impressive eula and yoimiya.
C2r1 yoimiya with 98%cr and 248%cd (shimegawa set)
C6r1 Eula 87%cr 160%cd.
Yoimiya is quite weak. In the bast case scenario she is not even close to my usual pyro DPS time.
Eula on the other hand is not as weak. Sure mine is C6, but most of the time the moment she ult it's basically overkill, so I have to cut off his burst instant.
Thing is, eula best team do a lot on their own.
In reality I never had any problem with eula, even before C6, the only real problem is that most abyss are either shield check (and eula team are not good at it) or lot of enemy with absurd phys res. I get it I have easy shred, not a good reason to give all enemy 70% phys resistance!
Also Mika is really bad. He does not even work with eula.
I'm not a Yoimiya main, but I greatly prefer her over Sigewinne. Her rapid fire E-skill is still kind of unique and fun.
@@bhellzeboss7541 She works wonders on Consecrated Beasts, as her short cryo application at the right time cancels their attacks. I cleared them without healers with Eula since 3.x
C2R1 btw
Kokomi is better simpily due to the fact she is catalyst user and can be used in a lot of team comps.
has better application offield
can hold ttds
doesnt take any field time
like a support is supposed to do lol
Ok... but instead of getting a sigewinne you can get furina C1 and suddenly kokomi does just about as good a job using furina as sigewinne does
@wansper9297 eh that's if you pulled kokomi first, if you wanna play mono hydro you'd get sigewinne and then invest in furina cons and sigewinne utilizes them much better because she scales better
So the tricky thing with value or "how good a unit is" is that in general you're trying to answer two questions:
1. If you're pulling because you like them, can you make good teams?
2. Do they enhance your account strength or versatility in any meaningful way?
And the answers to these questions can be very different. To me it seems like Sigewinne is definitely a YES to the first and generally a NO to the second, which is pretty similar to characters like Cyno and Clorinde. Most people would say that those characters are much stronger than Sigewinne, and they might even be right, but in terms of *value* when it comes to account power I think the gain is actually very similar (generally low). Because Sigewinne is more of an off-field character, people expected her value to be higher in terms of what she does compared to other units, in a way that they generally do not expect from on field units, for whatever reason.
Kokomi is likely appearing on 5.1... soo... so long as Sigewinne isn't an upgrade she isn't worth it right now. This could change with Natlan.
Kokomi also has her electrocute team and the Hyperbloom team with her driving. You also have to see this from the perspective of players who don't get all characters, she is definitely not worth it for a F2P or a low spender who can only get around 5-6 limited (guaranteed) characters per year.
i think the hate isn't because she is terrible with no use cases over Kokomi, it's just why would you ever pull for a side-grade or slight upgrade in some teams when you could be saving for Natlan.
kokomi is much more versatile in teams than sigewinne (she can also be run in a lot of other dendro teams and taser). i hope this doesn't come across as biased because im a kokomi main but if i were to recommend kokomi or sigewinne i would recommend kokomi. i think only looking at meta teams isn't a good idea because there are many more teams than what's in the meta and that can still be used in spiral abyss or in general.
The bad part is that even looking at off meta teams sigewinne still have nothing.
For example, i like to play dori C6 in her quickbloom team, she is the best option there, and have a place there, same for kaveh with ocean pearl in nilou bloom or dehya with neuvillette C0 vape.
But sigewinne dosent even have off meta teams where she is the best option.
would have agreed with u if her resistance to interruption was stronger. i think ayato is always just a better driver u could go for a defensive dedero like kirara , especially with multiwaves situations where nahida struggles.
To be very honest, I can see Kokomi be less relevant in teams if you have built Mona (for Nilou Bloom or Freeze) and Barbara (for Furina or, also, Nilou/Freeze) in your account, while Sigewinne's strengths on buff + healing and being a hydro character can only be matched by Barbara's Ult (which is not easy to do every rotation, and still takes more time than the tap E from Sigewinne).
Not saying that Kokomi is bad (or worse than Sigewinne), but I just wanted to show the other side of this situation.
Straight cope, just because with heavy investment you can make it work doesn't mean the character is good.
Take baizhu, that's a 5 star healer kit. He has powerful teamwide heals, he has a bit of shielding for comfort, some off-field dendro application for the hell of it, dendro catalyst. Can equip deepwood for dendro shred.
Siggewinne is a bad 4 star unit somehow promoted to limited 5 star because they're out of ideas.
Her kit is bad, but her design is definitely 5*
@@lolidemon3163that’s subjective. For me her design is 3.5*
@@Yelan-n8d better than majority of other fontaine chara designs
So, I watched through the whole video, and I have a lot of thoughts.
I feel like practicality and flexibility weren’t really taken into consideration all that well, placing way too much emphasis on Sigewinne’s healing and synergy with Furina. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Furina teams that just can’t make room for Sigewinne, due to the unique utility other healers can provide that she just can’t. Not to mention, Furina’s buff has a cap, so as long as other units can provide enough healing to cap it off, then there really isn’t as much of a point to bring Sigewinne just for that.
Meanwhile, while Kokomi definitely isn’t the best unit ever, her healing, aoe hydro application, and flexibility in terms of what weapons and artifacts she can run means that she can work very well in a larger variety of teams than Sigewinne. I’m confused why you said she doesn’t work in hyperbloom, and never even mentioned tazer. Sure, they aren’t her most optimal teams, but if you’re going to mention freeze teams at a time when they’ve fallen out of relevance, then why not explore other off meta options?
Sure they both have their similarities on the surface, being hydro healers. However, Kokomi is like a jack of all trades type unit who is flexible enough to provide decent utility in a diverse range of teams. Meanwhile, Sigewinne may be the master of healing, but that’s basically all she has. And as we all know, “A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.”
Nah, Sigewinne is Dehya Situation.
Unless HY Buffs her in any way or form, She just Bench warmer.
To be fair, She's not trash.
That only belongs to Hydro MC 💀
sigewinne honestly feels like dehya. in a sense that both are defensive options that have a dumb burst that does nothing but damage.
hydro MC IS NOT TRASH!
/jk
Except Dehya is actually useful if you stop trying to put her in situations you don't need her for. She's amazing in Burgeon and Burnmelt, and has a defensive flex slot in general.
And the overload team of Dehya/Raiden/Fischl/Chev is sleeper OP for meta purposes, since it's high in damage and super comfy.
I also think Sigewinne should have been a 4 star she would have been someone they can put on banners as an alternative to Kokomi for those teams. Now she is not really worth I get that she does like 10-20 percent more damage in a Furina team, and that will matter ONLY for those that already mid max as it is. Sigewinne is meant for players that play purely for design and personality and I think you underestimate how many of those there are. Genshin has made surveys about this for the longest time, so by now they have a pretty good understanding of the player base and the percentage.
My biggest pet peeve is that most ccs aren't even esting sigewinne how she's meant to be played and just disregarding her. It's like people testing dehya as a carry and saying shes trash in that regard when clearly they play a different role.
Dehya's not even a bad carry now for plunge and overload. And she always had burgeon being viable.
@@amandaslough125burgeon is barely viable bc her uptime and application is really bad
dehya is generally worse at c0 than thoma in non-carry situations
@@thelakes_s unless if it's lyney or neuvillette though. but for the most part especially with teams that use normals(Wanderer, Wrio.) or NA based animations(like Raiden and now Kinich.) then yeah she's worse than Thoma.
@@usmanya5110 neuvi can opt for basically any other shielder, layla is better for him in most if not all teams, especially bc afaik her uptime is better
for lyney i agree tho
It's because of how you optimize her kit by having additional secs of field time. For healers, I prefer them to be like Baizhu where I just burst and skill and he's done.
Hey Jello!! I've been watching your vids for a very long time now. It's because of you that I've been able to make my account as great as it is today!! I really enjoy watching all of your videos. Keep up the good work!!
is this video sponsored by hoyo?
She's amazing for my Furina. I regret nothing.
ikr? I ended up pulling them both and I'm happy with their synergy, no regrets
it feels contrived to me that she wasn't converted to a 4 star given the many more flaws compared to upsides she has as well as how we still have only three hydro 4 star, including only one who debuted after 1.0
I think she would have made far more sense as a 4 star.
If you have kokomi, you don't need to pull for Sigewinne. But if you feel the need to pull for Sigewinne, then pull her. Idk with others, but when it comes to pulling a character for me, I will prioritize what I need for my account first before what I want.
Personally, I don't feel the need to pull for Sigewinne because I already have Kokomi, not to mention that prior to this banner I have all hydro characters in the game except for Ayato (have him on 2nd account and conclude that I don't need to have him on both accounts).
The thing about Sigewinne and kokomi
One is a better of field healer and great hydro supplier, the other not
Sige is definitely not the worst because Albedo exist, but Albedo isn't a high bar.
Albedo atleast have Navia, and noelle teams, he is the best second geo in those teams.
@@cleod7439love geo but sigewinne would still be a better pull for buffing one of the best characters in the game (Furina) and even if she doesn't apply a lot of it hydro is just too valuable. Also, healing.
Funnily enough, you can also use Sigewinne with Navia+Furina instead, so....
@@hedgehugsI disagree with the last statement. Furina’s hydro app is not fast enough to get those shards rapidly for navia and sigewinne’s application is negligible. Just because you can think of a team doesn’t mean it will work in abyss. Albedo is a way better unit in navia teams than sigewinne, because he gives access to geo resonance, one of the best resonances. I would much rather prefer kokomi over sigewinne in navia teams.
@@hedgehugs The issue I see with Siggy+Furina for a Navia team is that that would really rather have a Furina friendly electro healer. Electro-charged is something you can crystalize off, and it provides extra damage. Of course, we don't really have an ideal electro healer for that currently.
@@Yelan-n8d well, tbf I was making the Navia+Furina assumption with the idea you're running Chiori in the last slot (Navia/Furina/Chiori/Sigewinne) which is a very valid team, considering there's already RUclips videos of people bringing it into Abyss. But I guess that'd be a bit unfair to Albedo so feel free to ignore that last part if you want.
You can use Kokomi in many more teams where she may not be best in slot but is a comfy and well working units because she has good hydro application. Even in overworld she offers that while also giving rarely needed healing. Power aside her versatility is amazing. And then she still has top tier teams you can use in abyss. Siegewinne on the other hand is tied by leg to Furina to be good. She can be used without her but so can be Qiqi and we all know how everyone likes her.
Also her design is Dehya tier in how disappointing it is. She could easly be made into skill buffer and/or unit enabling BoL/buffing units that use it. They choose not to do that the exact same way they choose to make Dehya have interesting kit that works nowhere well enough. But yeah, Siegewinne at least has use, soooo great.
Wouldn't call her trash but never would call her good unit. I'm so disappointed. I wanted her to be fun and good and they pulled Dehya on me. And I learned my lesson. I'm not wasting wishes and resources on character I will rarely use no matter how much I like them or find them cute.
i wonder if the dev who made sigewinne also made dehya cause they felt very similiar, like both are defensive supports with a stupid dps burst that does nothing but damage and below average damage at best.
The main things for me were that she's one of very few healers whose full-team heals aren't energy-dependent... the only others I can think of are just Baizhu, Noelle (though inconsistent), Xingqiu (sort of), and Barbara?
Why isnt Kokomi great as a hyperbloom driver?🤨
She is hes just trying so hard to cope that sigewinne is good
Yeah he's coping hard and spreading lots of bs in this video.
Sigewinne is awesome. SO much fun in Nahida, Furina, & Clorinde team. She heals amazingly well.
Clorinde self heals so her kit and Arlecchino's are basically what won't work well with Sigewinne, also her uptime is so large I'd rather Baizhu, or Charlotte.
There's no reason to hate a character. If you don't like them, well, don't pull for them. It's just that simple.
For some reason people want every genshin character to be Neuvillette
Eula and Yoimiya belong to the best overworld DPSs and Sigewinne just heals you. If you don't want to die get Zhongli, because Team wide healing is mostly only needed for Furina's burst and since she applies hydro rather poorly picks like Jean or Baizhu are way better.
Kokomi can be played in sukokomon (with fischl, Xiangling and Sucrose, Sige can't. She's cute and adorable, but she should have been a 4*, that's it.
Genshin players try not to be upset over a new unit NOT powercreeping other units challenge: IMPOSSIBLE! Primogem value is NOT a metric that should be used to judge the design quality of a character because it is self defeating as soon as Hoyo decides to (and they have; look at the majority of Fontaine) up the ante in response to literal Dehya boycotts. Characters tuned to the level or Neuvillette are, as a trend, bad for the game and the primogem value that people harp on so much will just incentivize more characters who eclipse the old ones to come out sooner in the future. It's okay to skip a character you don't like, and it's okay for characters to not overshadow old characters or open up their own new niche that drastically complicates game balance. Let the game be a game without having to compare everything to everything else. Getting a character that doesn't obsolete other characters is not an affront to your primogems. All of the discourse would be fine too if it didn't incessantly and obtusely chip at the quality of the game's design while at the same time calling for something worse. People really treat the devs of one of the most well balanced gacha game as if they don't create the very framework that these characters and the dynamics between them exist in in the first place. Characters who are alternatives to other characters are GOOD THINGS and not everyone has been playing and paying for three years with the entire roster unlocked!
TL;DR Sigewinne is balanced and Chiori and Neuvillette are the problem. (RIP Albedo and Ayato; Kokomi dodged death.)
I rolled for both Chiori and Neuvillette and I love them. But praising characters like them for almost totally and by a large margin eclipsing other characters meanwhile piling on Sigewinne for NOT eclipsing another is a short-sighted, if not overreactive for how non-egregious it is, take... And I'm just remembering how Chiori got the opposite treatment, for not eclipsing Albedo enough.)
she is perfect for my navia, albedo, furina team.
her ult does enough aoe damage to clear little mobs on her own. sometimes the lack of aoe is navias weakness and sigewinne helps with that
and i know xianyun would be better but i dont really like plunging
Does anyone else think they created her with the intent to be a 4 star, but somewhere along the line they changed her into a 5 star (potentially because her character within of itself is popular).
I pulled for Sigewinne bc of how cute she is, but I agree that she is a low value pull and they should have made her C1 and C2 part of her base kit. If they had, her C1 could’ve been one that removes the number limit to the instances of her skill buff and maybe one that gets rid of that stipulation where the character who casts the skill NEEDS to be off-field to get the buff. It would have given her a needed boost in value bc she was already going to be a niche character people wouldn’t be as likely to pull for.
Now, I DO think there are a few reasons behind her kit that is foreshadowing for the future, but not enough to make me think she’ll become THE meta healer in the future.
1 - Her low hydro application. Now, I think this was mainly bc she is paired with Furina, but I feel like another part of it is because we’re entering Natlan. We’re going to probably be facing more hydro-immune enemies as well as see a push towards Burning and Burgeon as a part of the meta.
2 - Her massive healing. If Burning/Burgeon are pushed forward in the meta along with Bond of Life, Sigewinne’s comfy healing might start to look more appealing over time, but I think this will apply to all of the healers. Not exactly just her.
3 - Off-field elemental skill damage buff. Now this is based on the Beta testing, but Emilie’s kit is going to have her elemental skill as the center of it with a burst that enhances the skill.
Sigewinne seems designed around both Furina’s and Emilie’s styles of damage dealing with low hydro application so it won’t get in the way of Emilie’s teams or future teams with Natlan characters.
All of that to say… Sigewinne is niche af and I feel like the art team loved working on her, but that the devs behind her kit were too stingy about “balancing” her so she won’t outshine anyone else. I do love her and am happy to utilize her, but she deserves better. I feel people are too harsh, but I wouldn’t say it’s completely unwarranted. I just hate when people call her trash when she isn’t.
Personally i'm hoping for a new reaction
@@lolidemon3163I feel you! I kind of doubt they’ll do that though. More likely they’ll shift the meta around to which featured reaction will be the focus of this nation. Like there’s speculation of Super Conduct becoming very relevant in Shneznaya to try and rejuvenate Physical Damage units along with Cryo.
@@MugWitch guess we will find out once natlan drops
Jello man, I like your takes normally but you almost always really ignore the on-fielding part of Kokomi's kit. Kokomi on-field does three things: lots of hydro app (she has NA, CA, Jellyfish), healing/tanking, subdps. Now, most people may not play that part of her kit but that doesn't mean its ignorable for a more objective analysis.
Although Kokomi has three 'meta' teams, she has a lot more 'good' teams. Talking about the on-field ones, Kokomi thrives in any kind of bloom reaction-based team, she can cover all the hydro app by herself(CA should be used often in these teams). Kokomi/Nahida is a good bloom core for such teams, those will clear through abyss chambers fairly easily and have a high floor.
There is only one kind of team where Sigewinne competes with Kokomi- the Kokomi/Furina teams where Kokomi onfields. Its not fair to say Kokomi should be bad if Sigewinne is considered bad, because you are hyperfixating on mono hydro and a niche section of her team archetypes, and off-field Kokomi to make that statement.
I honestly think it's fine for units to not be meta.
Chiori wasn't meta but she also didn't need to be, she didn't play a super important part of the story and the people who REALLY like her can make her insanely good anyways with cons and stuff. Obviously from a completely meta standpoint it would be better if every new character was better but IMO it's actually more refreshing to NOT see a new power creeping unit for once
I think the difference is, though, that Chiori has teams that desire her. If you play geos, you probably want Chiori. Maybe c1 Chiori, because of the construct stupidity. So she's in that same field as, say, Baizhu. An easy skip for most people, but a worthwhile pickup for those that play the teams he adds value to.
I can't say the same for Siggy. I have her. C2 even. I think she's comfortable to play. I like using her in the overworld with my Yae. But her use case, from an account power perspective, is very low. Yup, she can heal well for Furina and Furina helps her up the damage of her burst. But plenty of other healers work great with Furina as well, and often offer more overall benefits, and Furina has strong constellations, so if you want to pull...
I think sigewinne is in a weird spot because if you REALLY like her you can make a decent team for her (just like any other character lol) but she's not wanted in any teams either. I actually think that's good, more options is always better, it doesn't mean people should always use them. Who knows, maybe she'll be meta in 6.0 xD
Chiori is meta. That's the thing. Best in slot in Geo teams, can flex outside.
Chiori is good
actually chiori is meta due to her being a 4th slot with Zhongli and Zhongli is a pretty highly used unit so yeah.
I honestly think it's completely fine to put sigewinne even two tiers below kokomi.
The whole entire freeze argument was pretty bad for disproving kokomi's worth in it when trying to vouch for sigewinne solely for the fact that as you said, sigewinne wants to stick with furina, yet such a freeze team is taking furina (or to your point, an extremely valuable c1/c2 furina) especially when sigewinne isn't even involved in the freeze team.
The mono hydro sigewinne Variant is better damage wise due to onfielding yelan for more damage on her application, but doing so leaves a massive drop in the resistance to interruption that the kokomi variant would have, which I (and some other players may) value compared to the lack thereof in the sigewinne variant.
The only team I could truly think of for sigewinne in hyperbloom to be good is with yae miko, not the clorinde, as there is too many good replacements to her in the clorinde variant due to clorinde not needing a healer (prototype nahida is enough), would be better off with any of the top three shielders (thoma, kirara, zhongli) instead.
Kokomi is still good/great (even meta with nilou bloom) in every hydro team archetype (besides vaporize ig) compared to sigewinne "superiority" in just mono hydro. The argument of the other archetypes for kokomi aren't meta/great is fine, if it wasn't for the new endgame being out, where such diversity is appreciated in each character.
People really need to drop the "SIgewinne is better in Mono Hydro" cope. It's so insanely wrong. All testings to reach that scenario were done in extremely unfavorable situations for Kokomi and not within Mono Hydro niche (which is Single Target), and even then it took a C1R1 Sigewinne to compare to a C0 Kokomi. On fieldinng Yelan barely adds 50k damage to the entire rotation due to how overstacked you already are in DMG% buffs. Kokomi adds 500k damage herself, go look at sheets and sims if you think she doesn't. Sigewinne buffs add 20% damage to Furina, that's 100k since Furina does 500k damage per rotation. Sigewinne is crazy worse in Mono Hydro outside of multi waved content.
ohh please, sigewine over ayaka is a stretch.
crazy thing is, alot of people thought kokomi was the worst 5 star awhile back when she first dropped, but eventually she got a buff in later patches, im hopefull sigewinne will get the same treatment cause she is super fun for me at least!
Personally. I wouldn't recommend her to new players as there's units with much higher value, 😮and she doesn't stand out in any specific area.
In terms of comparing to kokomi, I think you are wrong in expecting sigewinne to perform as well as kokomi since in a situation where you need an on field healer or team wide healer kokomi is just better.
I think sigewinne is too niche and not an upgrade over other healers, and the fact she has such low hydro application is also a downside.
I doubt most veterans feel she has any value to them as most of them have at least 1 5 star healer. Personally, I already have xiangyun and kokomi, so to get another healer that works with furina, especially a 5 star one, doesn't make sense.
I think the big issue is that sigewinne can't replace kokomi in all situations, whereas kokomi can replace sigewinne in all situations
She's a "new player" character thar you wouldn't recommend to new players
I was gonna pull for her, til i saw her kit. I personally hated all the other fontaine charas (if we r talking abt 5* charas).
Calling her Dehya tier is an insult to Dehya. She's worse than Dehya.
You can use Dehya for interruption resistance in Ganyu melt
Furina is not enough to excuse her existence. Just because kokomi doesn't have many top meta teams, she's way more flexible. You can run a hyperbloom team with her driving yelan or xinqiu and raiden if you dont have kuki or prefer raidens range. Furina is so good that siegwinne making her slightly better doesn't matter.
It doesmatter if you like siegwinne and want to have a good team for her. klee is about 10 times more versatil than hu tao but don't hear people saying how garb hu tao is and klee is better.
If Sigewinne were a 4* character added to Furina’s banner, there’d be more enthusiasm about making her work. But she’s a 5* with her own banner, so we’re instead talking about what could’ve made her more worth the primogems, and why she’s a safe skip in favor of a hypothetical future banner.
Flexibility and/or enabling new playstyles are two of the most important factors when giving value to a character. Cheveruse is good because she enables overload teams. Kokomi's good because of her hydro application and healing (highly flexible).
Sigewinne is objectively one of the worst characters in the game. I have a hard time putting her above Barbara and Qiqi.
No, Sigewinne is absolutely the worst unit, her healing being fine is irrelevant, because you never take a character just for healing. The most important thing, and why Kokomi is a good unit, is the elemental application.
We don't hate Sigewinne, we hate what they did to her kit, I would've definitely pulled for her if she was usable, but right now, for mid healing and a very small buff to subdps there is absolutely no reason to ever use her in a team.
Kokomi
Cant crit
"You never take a character just for healing"? Speak for yourself there 🤨🤨
But yeah as a Kaeya main I'd probably regret getting Sigewinne now since in the team I want a hydro healer in I definitely need a healer with hydro application. Otherwise I disagree though, simply because even with healers there's so many different types of healing, and that alone can boost the quality of the character for me. The fact the she has party-wide, off-field, not burst-reliant healing is definitely a reason to pull her for me. The only reason I don't is because to an extend Kokomi has healing with her e as well, even though it's arguably way more underwhelming than Sigewinne's, and because I, like many other people, am awaiting the pyro archon (and Shenhe) who I am saving for, so I simply can't afford it. Otherwise I would've already pulled for her.
But to say Sigewinnes healing is "mid" is underselling her for sure.
@@jikra If people cared about only healing and no other support, most people would play qiqi more.
@@jikra Ok, her healing is fine, but it's also irrelevant, since just healing doesn't make her useful enough.
@@VeraldoAncodini you haven't seen japanese ppl abuse sigewinne.
Sigewinne's poor Hydro app is both good & bad:
Less Hydro means that your Pyro DPS can't vape, but it also opens up the opportunity for Furina to vape instead.
I don't think people "hate" Sigewinne, I'm pretty sure most players universally agree that she's cute. What people criticise is her pull value.
And it isn't the community's fault that Mihoyo failed to power creep Kokomi properly. They released another sea-themed, hydro healer with pastel colors, and instead of making her unquestionably better than Kokomi, they made her worse on most scenarios. She's clunkier to use, requires more on-field time even if you want to use her as support, has much worse hydro application... she really does not bring new value into your account, in the same way older supports like Zhongli, Kokomi or Kazuha did.
Corporate greed ruined her release. If she was a 4 star, everyone would be happy about her: lower her stats a bit, and she could've been a great budget replacement for those who don't have Kokomi.
But as a 5 star... she has no value, unless you don't have Kokomi, and prefer her design. In my opinion she should've been either significantly better than Kokomi, or a 4 star, making her a cheaper alternative.
But she's neither. She's as expensive to get as Kokomi, has worse F2P weapons available for her role, and less teams. She should've a 4 star, in my opinion.
PS: And I'm not a hater, I love her design, and I played her trial stage a hundred times, TRYING to see if her playstyle convinced me, because I really wanted to pull for her. But as much as I loved her animations, her actual playstyle felt awkward, at least to me.
I would have whaled if she was good, genuinely hate the rest of the 5* cast of fontaine
@@lolidemon3163 I have the guaranteed, and I love pastel, cute characters. I was ready to sacrifice my guaranteed for Venti, and use it on Sigewinne, if she felt SLIGHTLY fun on her trial stage.
She didn't. Her on-field animations are very pretty, but take too much time, and she just didn't felt fun to play (and I played A LOT of times, to get used to her kit).
As a 4 star, I would've invested on her, even if she added no value on my account. But as a 5 star, I can't justify wasting a guaranteed on her, with Natlan just around the corner.
I feel like she really needs furina, but furina doesn't need her at all.
Perfectly put!
I am not my best friend's best friend situation.
Building damage on Sigewinne without her C6R1~R5 is a waste of time. At least Kokomi can be a good driver while healing.
iirc kokomi's damage isn't even that bad, especially in mono-hydro teams.
yea, an average kokomi does 8-10k per normal on burst with mono-hydro, which isnt a lot compared to DPS characters but it's still good damage nonetheless especially since she also heals doing normals
@@feryisthis sounds like a big waste of on-field time though. At least in Abyss time limits or what have you.
@@MugWitch It’s worth noting that that’s an average Kokomi though, a well built c0 Kokomi can easily hit anywhere from 15-20k+ from just her normals alone, which when paired with clam & her skill doing increased damage during her burst leads to her having surprisingly good damage output.
@@feryisthisaverage Kokomi in Mono Hydro should be doing 15k+ per normal attack. Her unbuffed numbers are 7k per Normal already. Unless by average you mean a level 60 one.
7:00 Imagine next Imaginarium Theater restricts to only Cryo, Hydro and Anemo 💀
Kokomi can use her basics and her ult in some teams.
Sigewinne exclusively uses her skill and swaps off, despite having bonuses that would imply she should be an on-fielder.
I'm not going to get a limited 5-star just to use E once for heals and the rest of her kit is wasted. That isn't satisfying.
Guys listen, not "EVERY" characters are "META" whether they are old or new, rmmbr this game also have its collector element to it
We already have enough hydro healers it just feels so lazy
She could have been a hydro healer that focused on different things like E Buffing(i know has it in her kit but it's very limited.) Or some kind reaction niche like chevreusem
Baizhu and Sigewinne are the only two that can whole-party-heal with their E skill, right? Most other healer including Kokomi are only on-field healer with their E and whole-party-healer with their Q.
With their E, yes
Actually also Noelle heals all the party with her elemental skill.
Qiqi too. (Both when hitting some enemies).
@@GreenHoleSun Yeah, but they have to stay on field for the heal to happen. Wait, aren't they heal with Q only?
@@xdragon2k yes, they have to be on the field, notheless they can heal entire party without q. Even Jean (by simply attacking) and Sayu (by swirling) can heal entire party.
@@GreenHoleSun And Barbara.
Sigewinne is my first C6 5star unit, her kit is just too comfy to use and being a healer/support just makes her so useable in new teams moving forward, plus her dps is actually pretty nice 100% no regrets.
Sigewine case is similar to Albedo. Sure they are not bad, but what they do is already being done better by other characters making pulling for them not feel worth it.
Though wat did other units do that albedo did wen he was released?
@@lolidemon3163I am referring to chiori.
Albedo still better than chiori for navia and noelle. Is not the same case
@@cleod7439 how is albedo better for noelle and navia?
@@devam8192 fair enough
Why is sigewinnes low field time requirement considered bad for sigewinne?
Literally 1 second fire and forget without a need to burst and stacks furina fanfare very quickly
As someone who thinks kokomi is overrated, kokomi is MILES better than sigewinne and def not "on the same tier"
I like ur vids mann, but i think this is the most cope vid ive ever seen since dehya pre fontaine
Ok jello, I've never roasted u for a video, but ur asking for it with this one, no offense.
If i sit here and think for even 2hrs, i cant name a worse limited unit than Siegewinne other than maybe Eula or Albedo. Like, literally, what does she do ? She heals. Thats it. Its not like we have 10× teamwide healers right ? (Jean,Barb,Xianyun,Charlotte,Baizhu,Yaoyao,Mika,Chevruse*)
First, let me preface this by saying kokomi isn't a top meta unit anymore, she is barely even meta rn. The reason why Siegewinne is bad and kokomi is not is VERY simple. Kokomi has better teams, and kokomi has a lot more potential future applications with her being a catalyst and having the ability to proc ttds and totm.
Teams :
Nilou bloom one of the best teams in the entire game for AoE. Any version of monohydro, be it the kokomi version or the Siegewinne version, isnt exactly meta. Why ?
1. The comp literally hogs up almost all of ur good hydro units. I get there are other comps that hogs up the good units such as international but those teams are literally among the best teams in the game for both speedruns and meta play meanwhile mono hydro is decent at best.
2. The comp is EXTREMELY single target, making it compete with other single target comps such as Hutao, Arle, Alhaitham, Clorinde etc and mono hydro is worse than all of them.
"It is very flexible" is one of the worst arguments I've heard for the mono hydro comp. Its flexible in terms of rotations but its literally not flexible in terms of teammates. Yelan and furina are a must for the team if u want to play it at a component level. Kazuha, is kinda a must if u dont run an anemo healer, but if u run an anemo healer, wtf is the use of Siegewinne ?
Compared to kokomis team options, Siegewinnes teams are garbage except for monohydro, where she performs similarly to kokomi (not better). Jaimie tested sigewinne at c1 with c2 furina. So obv, she is going to be better than kokomi because Siegewinnes c1 is quite good.
Also, the clorinde team u showed is pure cope. Like, in what world would u use Siegewinne over Jean/Xianyun/Baizhu/Zhongli/Kirara ?
The team also can be played literally without any healer because clorinde self sustains, Nahida can go P. amber, and furinas A1 can heal as well.
Being significantly worse than a currently "decent" unit makes u a bad unit. Thats what Siegewinne is. A bad unit.
Also, let's talk a bit about that ending part where u compared her to some other units.
Chiori ? How the heck was this even a debate ? Chiori is literally the best in slot in Navia teams even at C0. Unless ur somehow going cuckoo and implying Siegewinnes teams are better than Navia teams, this comparison makes 0 sense.
Itto teams with chiori are good/decent. Better than what mono hydro offers overall since the team can do AoE and single target competently. Mono hydro is better than the Itto team in single target but its worse in AoE.
Yoimiya, has a decent team with Chevruse, Fischl and Bennet. It calcs around 68k dps which is below the standards but is quite decent.
Eula and Albedo are the only ones I'd agree on but thats why they are called "BAD" instead of good and Siegewinne while isnt as bad as them, is still not that much better.
Sorry dude but u completely missed the mark with this vid.
Abledo is okay. Good with Navia and Childe National.
If she was a 4*, which already has very limited hydro options as of this writing, she would be welcomed a lot by the community.
No, I disagree.
MiHoYo has FOUR FUCKING YEARS of experience making characters for this game, there is no excuse anymore for making bad characters. This isn't even like it's not intentional either, it clearly is...why give such a pretty and unique charged attack to a character when you make it scale with the stat they will NEVER BUILD!
No one is going to build attack on Sigewinne. You can't even argue "It's their first time making an HP scaling bow character" when Yelan exists. Hell, they even gimped her Hydro app for no reason. You can't even say it's like Kokomi because they specifically ADDED special ICD (her Jellyfish has NONE) to her skill so she would be useful...it also has 100% up time.
Even if you want to build Sigewinne and get the most out of her, you need 65,000 HP. not even triple HP main stat with an HP weapon is enough to hit that...her whole kit is dysfunctional.
Actually, the ICD on Koko's jellyfish even got buffed from every other hit to every hit in the last week of beta prior to her release, so that checks out with what you're saying.
@@alpha4935 Yeah, that means her Jellyfish has no ICD (Internal Cooldown).
It will always apply hydro every single hit, so no cooldown on the hydro app.
i wish her skill buff was better and wasnt shared amongst the team. It would have given her her own niche at least that sets her apart from kokomi.
or maybe make it shared and let the buff stay for a certain duration like 12-15 secs instead of a stupid quota.
sigewinne is what doomposters thought xinayun was gonna be, but they're not wrong this time
because off field skill buffing is way more niche than plunging. the only characters that don't benefit from plunging are like... bow users lmao.
sigewinne only buffs like... 5 characters or around. which is sad.
@@hedgehugs I'd say it is more the anemo element, personally. 4 of 7 elements love the VV. The on-fielders for the 5th like the anemo particles. The 6th doesn't mind the swirls spreading the elements around to boost its reactions, at least for a chunk of its teams.
@@hedgehugs I suppose it’s 5 characters if we consider meta characters only. 🤔
@@MugWitch i'll be real with you, i was trying to include every character who deals damage mostly with their off-field skill, meta or non-meta lol. i just didn't want to google and just counted the characters that came to the top of my head (furina, chiori, albedo fischl, yae)
looked anyway and the only real character i missed was geo traveller, so... around 6 lol.
@@hedgehugs lol all good. A big one you’re missing though is Nahida. And technically it works for other support characters like Layla or Yaoyao or Qiqi as well but you wouldn’t be running them on a team with Sigewinne 😆 it also works for Xiangling and Amber too bc they have summons even though it’s not the same level as Oz. Emilie is also rumored to have her damage centered around her skill so that’s one more soon at least.
EDIT: Just realizing Raiden might also be applicable?? Would need to test to find out.
I do remember when Kokomi was released...she had this same kind of backlash. And she is one of the only units ever to be buffed after release. Which is why I'm hesitant not to pull her.
I think the issue is there was no reason for her release. Apart from the hydro application, Kokomi came at a time when healers weren’t really a thing in limited 5*.
At this point, we already have Kokomi, Baizhu, Xianyun etc. and they all provide something. Kokomi’s hydro application, Baizhu’s dendro buffing and interruption resistance, Xianyun’s plunging, even Jean’s VV shred. It just doesn’t make sense to release another healer that is on par or worse than the previous ones, because there are already so many other healers that offer more. If people want a healer after Furina’s release, they’d have wished on Xianyun or Baizhu in the previous banners. Sigewinne just feels so…random…
I think the better comparison with Sigewinne is Xianyun, not Kokomi (I know you were comparing hydro healers, but Sigewinne is barely a hydro character).
Both Sigewinne and Xianyun have teamwide healing made to compliment Furina, but Xianyun just offers so much more, it really feels like Sigewinne is just a 4* Xianyun.
Yeah she basically has no element, she a healer thats it
@@tasha2749 yeah like all the other healers are elemental healer. Jean and Xianyun can VV, Kokomi can apply a lot of hydro and Baizhu can drive or do some off field dendro (not enough for blooms but enough for quicken and quickbloom) and Sigewinne just…heals…
@@levi3248 isn't it just really sad, outside of their elemen they have a somehow a gimmic that make them good like jean with her c2 and c4, xianyun with her plunge enable, baizhu with shield and, kokomi with the ability to be on fielder and the ability to use totm + ttds if necessary and there sigwinne who only ability is just heal..., technically she has a buff on her pasiv but lets be real what you get from 10 hit limit shared betwen each character
@@levi3248 She has buffing. The problem is... It's not even that good and it's very limited like my god why do they designed her that way.
Sigewinne is not bad. But shes underwhelming. Her hydro healer niche is oversaturated
Ikr, theres koko and barb
maybe she should have been a chevreusse for a specific hydro reaction.
@@lolidemon3163 And Xingqiu and Protorype Amber.
shes one of the worst 5* limited in the game
Putting Sigewinne and Ayaka in the same tier is wild.
Why do ppl still think Kokomi is good and Sigewinne isnt? You said it yourself at 9:00 really.
Cause kokomi do more personal dmg, apply more hydro (on and off field), and have buffer capabilities with TTDS and ToM. Sigewinne only have healing as something relevant in her kit (and it doesn't even have 100% uptime).
She's so bad that barbara powercreeps her
I think the main issue is that Jello emphasizes peak performance, whereas most players emphasize overall pull value.
Yes, Sigewinne is one of the best units in a mono hydro team, so her peak performance is actually decent, even if only for one team. Niche but powerful characters makes sense for people like Jello, who already have a bunch of other units built.
However, most people do not have the luxury of spending primos on a character for a single, specific team. Why get Sigewinne when you can get Kokomi, who offers nearly the same performance in mono hydro, but enables so many more team building opportunities via hydro application? Because of this, I think Sigewinne undeniably has terrible pull value.
The funny thing is, Jello recognizes this and straight up recommends a vast majority of players to skip Sigewinne. Looking at the comments section, I think it's safe to say that the title of the video is 100% accurate lol. Keep it civil and enjoy the game folks.
Given mihoyo's track record Sigewinne will be good with the pyro archon in 6 months. The pyro archon will have BoL or some kind of revive mechanic where Sigewinne will be meta.
She does not even comes close to kokomi
If she was a 4 star then maybe a b tier unit but rn she is definitely one of the wrost limited 5star
Tbh i have her and she feels great? as a casual player her elemental skill is very comfortable both in overworld/abyss. I played her in my navia/zhongli/sigewinne/furina team and she does feel better to use than the bennet or yelan variation that i was doing.
But also the only situation where you would rather have Sigewinne is if your Furina is the most invested character. She does buff Furina more than Xianyun, Kokomi, Charlotte, and any other healers, especially when she is paired with Kazuha. But it's such a specific situation.
But anyways i dont think shes a lost cause like what people are saying. She's just a very low pull value character at the moment. I'm guessing there would be another Kazuha/Buffer that has a kit that would favor sigewinne. Like an on-field dps Kazuha that buffs more but in trade off has long field-time and no off-field presence
i pulled her as a cheerleader, she’s just cool to run around as a melozine that all why not, some healing is good
gathering every eula main. to quote Tyler the Creator:
BOO THIS MAN! CALL HIM NAMES!