Do you need WIDE BELTS on your 3D Printer? Do they stretch less? (Belt Stretching Myth)
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
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👉🏻 In this video, I am testing and comparing print quality and Klipper's input shaping graph results with 6mm vs 9mm width 3D printer belts. Does such an upgrade make a difference to print quality? Well, I answer the question in this video based on my testing data.
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🕗 TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - What you will see
00:27 - Why belts don't really stretch
02:04 - Important notes before results
02:37 - Input shaping results
03:34 - Important notes before print results
04:01 - Test print comparison
04:46 - Impact of the wobbly bracket on the prints
06:13 - Conclusion and final thoughts
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You should try 2 belts. Like 2 4mm belts beside each other. The reason is to stop the ringing of the belts. Multiple belts are put on large motors not to transfer power, but to reduce vibration. They tend to oscillate differently and cancel each other out. I’ve never tried it on a printer, but I always wondered if it worked.
This is definitely the most interesting comment that I saw about this video topic. It sounds too good to be true though. Anker M5 has two Y belts but ghosting on the prints from what I saw looks horrible. I feel that it is way too deep a rabbit hole for me to dive in haha.
@@PrintingPerspective it would just be a matter of installing 2 thinner belts where 1 is currently installed. I just tried seeing if a belt could be “torn” down the center, but it didn’t work. I am not advanced enough in my printer tuning to be able to tell if it even made an improvement.
Mhh maybe if they tensioned exactly the same and are semetrical build, the amplitudes can cancel out. If they mounted exactly the same, the amplitudes adds up or not?
There was an article finding that two belts tht are out of phase with each other can be helpful for minimizing vfas. The second belt is half a step off axis from the 1st belt. They used a custom pulley.
9mm belts need SIGNIFICANTLY more tension than 6mm, that’s where their advantages show. 6mm spec is like 15lbs wheras 9mm is more like 24lbs and properly tensioned shows a noticable improvements in input shaper. My printer runs 9mm belts with 24+ lbs of tension and it has 65hz Y axis and 95hz X axis resonant frequencies. Comparing that to when I ran 6mm, I was closer to 50hz X and 65 on Y
Obviously, you can crank wider belts to way higher tension, but you clearly ignoring bearing longevity and the max forces allowed on the stepper motor shaft. Most people tense their belts way too much than it is supposed to be by the spec and it is one of the most misleading concepts that you need a lot of tension.
@@PrintingPerspective that’s 100% wrong, most printers are under build and can’t sustain spec tension. Like I said, spec is around 15lbs for 6mm, doubled for “precision motion” based on the gates data sheets. Most people tension them much less due to bad design like no double sheer bearings on motor shafts so they don’t bend. With proper design and proper spec, you can safely go to about 1.5x tension with 9mm belts vs 6mm belts due to it having 1.5x more load bearing fibers in the belt. This would equate to about 1.5x gain theoretically in rigidity of the belt.
Measuring at the same absolute tension is pointless and proves nothing except that spreading the load over more fibers does not change anything as long as their running below max spec tension
What I am trying to say is that you have to tension the belt by the weakest link in the motion system (and if anything falls out of spec you have to make changes). I have no idea where are you getting 15lb for a 6mm belt as they specify static tension of only 4lb (2lb min) per span. Which is well in the range of loads of the stepper motors and idle flange bearings from my calculations. I will agree, wider belts do need more tension for teeth to properly grip the pulley and it is my bad for stating otherwise. I am just not a fan of your approach which is not based on the majority of the printers. As that info would be beneficial for way more people. But at the end of the day, I still see no reason to use wider belts, especially when the minimum tension for them comes close to the max allowed radial forces of the most common stepper motors on 3d printers.
@@PrintingPerspective not sure where you’re getting 4lbs, based on the gates gt3 manual spec tension for 2mgt gt3 belts are 10lbs for 6mm belts, 17 for 9mm belts. Both of these are again doubled for “precision motion” which is our use case meaning spec tension is 20lbs and 34lbs respectively.
Well, don't you think you should specify what type of belt you are talking about? I listed specs for the 2MR GT2 that 99% of printers use and yes I fully understand that those numbers are doubled.
I'd really love the same experiment done on a corexy as corexy has such a long belt path!
All the belt tension is on the thin motor shaft and it’s little bearing. A support bearing on the end of the motor shaft may help. Or a motor with a thicker central shaft.
For the longevity aspect, 100%.
Good video! As you said, big belts are better for large corexy machines. My 400mm v-core 3.1 has about 2.5 meter belt for each motor so I bet that 9mm belt helps with proper tension there
Great videos as always!
I admire your amazing ability to come to completely opposite conclusions here and in your other video on "3D Printer’s BELTED Z-AXIS".
Wide Belt Tension CORRECTION:
Wide belts in fact do need more tension. By the GATES datasheet, it requires +50% more tension for the teeth to properly grip onto the pulleys when compared 6 vs 9mm belt.
Because of that 9mm belts minimum required tension comes close to the max allowed radial force on the most common stepper motors. So unless you have stepper motors that are rated for way higher radial loads than 30N (6.6lb or 3kg) you shouldn't use wider belts. Plus as you saw the print quality was the same. So the myth that the belt stretches and wider belts will provide better print results is false. Please keep in mind that all this is for bed slingers and the effects can differ on different 3d printer designs.
Any idea if they would affect delta printers more? For example, my FLSUN SR comes with 10mm wide belts (apparently they have kevlar tensile members, only 9 of them though, not sure if that helps) but they have to support the entire weight of the print head, effector, and arms (and extruder with the flying extruder mod). I've been trying to figure out if it would be worth it to get some wider or better belts just so I don't have to re-tension them as often, but I have no idea.
I guess I could just add a counterweight and pulleys, maybe with a dampener for jerking loads, when I have time. Maybe that would help?
Can you make an in-depth guide on you modifying the kp3d pro
I have a question, does the Klipper firmware take into account the weight of the accelerometer? I mean when you test the Y axis in a bed slinger, do Klipper know that it will be removed and therefore compensate?
I don't think so but the mass of it is insignificant to make real effect. On bed slingers printed plastic itself weight more, you know.
I found the average stepper motor has more give to it than the belt. Noticed this when i got my second 3D printer about 5 years ago while playing with adjusting the v-ref. I set the motor to rest at full power and If you activate the steppers and push on the tool head or bed you will see the motor gear deflect far before the belt stretches (i had mine tensioned to 8lbs). I think this is why you see much stronger setups still using the 6mm belt as it's still strong enough to prevent any type of significant deflection
Once again, fantastic video and content. Thank you for doing this work! You should call your channel "3D Myth Buster"!
This is something I've always wondered, and again, you provided the answer with the proof.
I assume the belt(s) profile and the teeth on the pulleys have no effect on printed precision? ;)
Thanks. Rebranding is a pain, haha.
I doubt profiles change anything if you are using quality pulleys and belts. On regular GT2 20T you are getting 10 teeth that are biting into the pulley, which is more than enough to have no play.
Flyingbear revision 2 has wide belts core xy
This is such an unusual collection of tests for wider belts. People buy wider belts because they last longer and result in less potential for damaging your printer on a hard swing of a heavy bed at high speeds. Wider belts and the typically better designed teeth also are much likely to slip (especially due to greater contact area). They stretch less, you tension them once and forget about them... weird thinking behind these tests.
I Really like the video, amazing work. Wouldn't a bowden style instead of a direct drive extruder also be better for faster printing since there would be less weight on the hotend assembly. Just a thought the only problem would then be printing with flexibles.
You really don't want to have bowden if you care about printing with quality at high speeds. The weight reduction is not worth it. You want extruder gears to be as close as possible to the hotend for most precise flow rate and pressure advance control.
Yep,,, back in the early days a Bowden was meant to helped get rid of Ghosting/Ringing and increase printing speeds and it did to a certain point,, but people were also using 3mm filament with Bowden not the 1.75mm this was due to theory that 3mm filament was less prone to bending inside the extension tube from the extruder to the nozzle-.
But these days with the advancement of Slicing Software/ Motherboards & Drivers / Input-Shaper and Klippler ect,,,
Well all Bets are Off and let the race begin all over again-.
Also the larger belts require a higher belt tension to be in specs, tension which will easily ruin the bearings in the motors, unless more components are added to take away load from the motor bearings.
With the higher contact area and different tooth profile, they are far less likely to slip. Why would you tension them more?
Because the force to make them bend properly around the pulley is proportional to the width. The stepper shaft won't hold the force needed for wider pulleys, you need a whole different construction to unload the shaft from the tensioning force
I think you don't see a difference because: 1. The belts are not the only thing being springy in the whole system. 2. There is play at various points in the system. 3. You didn't increase tension. 4. You didn't run high accels. 5 The belt on the bed is pretty short.
If you did the same test on a good CoreXY with much longer belts and a much stiffer frame and motion system and with increasing tension you will see differences.
I think point 3 is the key one.
Wider belts should be used at a higher tension to have the same force per area on the belt.
Using both at the same tension is not using the wider belt to its full potential.
That ringing is slightly less on the 9mm belt but I do agree it is a fools errand to change belt size for that level of improvement.
ruclips.net/video/AzafIhKjLIU/видео.html
Well yes, but we talking such microscopic amounts that practically they are not observable when you look at the prints IRL. So yea, not worth it.
He also tested this on a bed slinger, the belts are short. On a CoreXY machine with very long belt lengths, 9mm is the way to go.
@@PrintingPerspective I'd say maybe worth if you're making a new printer/need new belts and pulleys anyway, and plan on running basically infinite acceleration (i.e. as fast as possible) it's only like 5-10 bucks extra.
@@coltenmeredith8899 He did mention that, my v-core-3 has 9mm and i tightened that up so much it pulled out of the lock while testing IS.
@noanyobiseniss7462 My trident will be a very good comparison. I am doing 6mm initially, and when fabreeko releases the 9mm cnc gantry, I'll go for that. I'm expecting a lot better IS results
wider belts are often when you really pushing your acceleration with something heavy, like running a 600gram hotend at like 1500mm/s and 100k accel, the low end spead the benfit aren't really noticable at all as shown
Yeah I was looking at that, for my stock sl42sth40 1684a steppers (0.35Nm rated) you can run around 30-35k acceleration on a 2kg bed. (~0.3 Nm @30k)
Most of the time, GT3 belts should be enough. That's what I am going to be running on my V0 atleast
@8bits955 well, it is easy to say that in general, but it will be more interesting to know at what forces you start to see the actual difference. Maybe someday I will explore more when we don't have such a huge bottleneck with hotends.
@@PrintingPerspective it will be great if you can bring us more test would love to see the specific test results. With regards to hotends have you seen the Goliath hotends pair that with CHT volcano nozzles it so far the fastest thing we got and amazing Simon the guy who designed it was able to push 2000mm/s on them
@DIYPERSPECTIVE is there really such a huge bottle neck with hotends with a printer like shown in the video? Look at the volcomosq, which seems to melt plenty of plastic for a 2:30 second benchy. I understand flow will most always be a limiting factor, but right now, your Y axis is worse.
Your new microscope has an "all metal lense" (1:15) are you sure?
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What about Gates and cheaper belts? that may be worth the upgrade! more smaller reinforcement fibers will make for a better belt, bending more easily around pulleys
Those scale on the graph are matter. For example, the shaper can reduce the vibration to 1%, 1% of 2.5e-4 and 1% of 1.75e-4 is 30% improvement of performance
Those peak values mostly matter when we disable the input shaper, but the small difference doesn't really do anything even without IS. Obviously, we don't want to have high peak values. I had high peaks on a few printers and ghosting on the prints was huge, but with IS defects were reduced almost to none as good as with lower value peaks on other printers. 30% theoretical improvement with basically zero real-world improvement is 0% improvement in my book.
@@PrintingPerspective One high peak is much better than many small peaks for sure. If you have clean peak but still have ghosting, that mean there are other vibrations that the sensor cannot read. The sensor read data with gravity as preference, but the actual ideal data we need are the data between the bed and the toolhead.
Hi! Thank you for the video!
The results are very strange as for me. I use 12mm gates belt on my ender 3 pro. 50 hz mzv and 7500 accel are recommended by klipper.
Unless you did before and after testing and got completely different results I am not sure why it is strange for you. Those accels sounds about right for that size heatbed printer.
Nice
6 vs 9
I feel the basic design of the belt is most at fault when it comes to transmitting artifacts to a print. I don't find it a coincidence that almost all related print artifacts closely mirror the tooth pattern of the belts. Those teeth cause way too much vibration, even when the backside of the belt is run along a smooth pulley.
A totally smooth belt will provide the most smooth surface finish on a print, but the issue here is slippage. I feel a ribbed V belt like a serpentine belt could possibly work, but I'm no guru either
This is really good info that we can all consider.
You forgot the most important thing. Wide belts LOOK cooler. We all appreciate the THICCNESS.
Better not use 3 C's in thiccc, Brendan Schwab will try and sue. 😂
Bed springs doesn't help, change it with spacers.
The test is incorrect because it was done at the same tension. Simply changing the stiffness of the belt when there is already enough stiffness is not sufficient.
The more the belt is tensioned, the less vibrations. A wide belt can be tensioned more tightly than a narrow belt, so you can get better input shaping results. This is really the cheapest and most effective way to improve it.
You making a bold claim not knowing all the details but I guess you know those way better than the person who tested. One thing I am going to say to you and all the people who will claim the same is that the belt tension was quite high, to begin with. In fact, I had to change the idler bearings because they felt worn out from the higher tension than I was running all the time (but I still tested at that higher tension). You can't just crank belts as much as you can and ignore the longevity aspect of the bearings, that is so stupid and impractical. Every test I do is based as close as possible to realistic conditions. People seem to narrow their minds on one thing ignoring all the other variables that make a good 3D printer. Have a great day, buddy!
@@PrintingPerspective Change those idlers to real flanged bearings. Real bearings have are bigger than the bearings in the idlers and real bearings can take alot more tension. And those frequencies look pretty low to me.
The printer already has flange bearings on the idler pulley.