Bandmaid - "Moratorium" Live - First Reaction - Autotune Discussion
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- Опубликовано: 21 дек 2023
- First, I discuss the "Autotune Effect". Then Bandmaid kicks ass live with "Moratorium"
#bandmaid , #reaction , #firstreaction
Link to O.V. : • BAND-MAID / Moratorium...
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Beginning at 16:51, I twice used Kanami's name when I actually meant Saiki. Sorry for the error. If you wish to skip the "Autotune Effect" discussion go to 20:28. Thank you!
OK, sorry, but I am back. And I hate to say I am back to disagree (again). I have spent a good deal of time over many listens in various environments, and I think I know what you hear. Now, I am not back to argue whether there is pitch correction applied on Blooming, nor am I here to argue autotune/no autotune. This is a studio recording that is engineered, mixed and masters, so there is obviously effect on the track, vocals and otherwise. I could not care less because whatever the post production, the result is immaculate and ambrosia to my earholes.
However, what I will contend is this. At the moment you say you think you hear autotune, I don't think you are hearing autotune. Firstly, I do not hear a "pitch correction" ; the harmony pitch doesn't, at least to my ears, change from off pitch to on pitch. Secondly, I hear three voices start "Far Away", and I think it is Saiki with the melody, and Miku and Kanami on the same note in harmony, and then Kanami drops out and Miku trails in solo on harmony for a beat or 2 longer. I think this "dropout" is what you are hearing. Part of the reason I think this is I can hear Kanami's "accent" in the beginning, and (to me) it is clearly Miku alone when the second harmony vocal drops out. Also, the second half of the harmony before "Take me..." seems to me to clearly be much thinner (Pigeon-y) than the first half. It also might explain why you were wrestling with whether it was 2 Saiki vocal tracks.
There are other BandMaid songs that feature Kanami as a third vocal as well, albe-them for very short durations. One clear example is in Freedom where you can see in the live that Kanami is actually singing into the mic to make the vocal richer, but not lending a third voice for three part harmony, just supporting the harmony that Miku is providing, but also giving Miku the (no pun intended) freedom to improvise if she wants with a cheer without the song losing the harmony in the vocals if Miku choses to go rouge Pigeon.
If I were a rich man I would run it through track separation if possible and strip out Saiki's melody to hear it cleanly, but I think that this explains it, and also why it seems to be the only time in the song that autotune seems to be present.
Or it could possibly be Miku double tracked and she drops out early in one ear and not the other, as I can clearly hear that one harmony vocal is hard panned left and the other hard panned right. For a second, I thought they were shifting the panning, but I think not. I think they are panned the same, just stronger between left and right constant between the two harmony vocals.
Anybody who has seen Miku & Saiki singing live, is amazed of how well Miku is able to sing complex harrmonies with Saiki while playing complex rythm patterns with Kanami. That's how good this lady is. Sure in some songs, we all know they use some backing tracks and voice effects which are part of the composition, but there is no realtime autotune used for their voices as we sometimes hear Saiki singing flat when her voice has been too strained by the very demanding songs of BM repertoire.
You're absolutely correct. Miku is now even more important to this band than we could ever have imagined. She now more than just a rhythm guitarist, contributing minor solo elements to Kanami's playing and supporting Saiki's vocal lines, especially when she gets tired her voice drops off sometimes at the end of lines. it's well worth taking some time to watch Miku's contributions throughout a complete song and seeing how natural it is to her now. The lady is a genius for all the reasons we know.
Well said!
It’s why I prefer Band Maid live. A lot of their studio stuff is horribly overproduced, lots of vocal layering etc. and sounds really pop. I have seen Band live a number of times and as you said, Saiki often sings flat when she gets tired, but thats what we love. You can here her exhaustion and emotion in her vocals and I think that’s what appeals to the older crowd. I’m and old metal head who had pretty much given up on any new music until I discovered Band Maid. We all know they use backing tracks to add to their live sound but what they play they play. One of my favourite albums is new beginnings because of the production or lack of, its a very raw pop punk album. World Domination is awful, so many fantastic songs but the production is terrible. All those songs are fantastic live and some of their greatest hits.
There IS realtime autotune used for their voices. Anyone who denies has no ear.
@@sahinbergNo there is not and you have no reason nor logical sense. You have never been to any of their concert obviously. I follow them since 2016 and have seen them live many times. No autotune. Saiki sometimes sings flat, off tune in certaine occasions when her voice is strained, as any other singer.
Once you hear Band-Maid, you'll take a Moratorium from all the other bands! And once you hear them live, you know Mr. Autotune is nowhere to be found.🤣🤘
Autotune can be and for the band-maid IS applied live. Don't fool yourselves.
@@sahinberg I've heard the Maids live a number of times. Saiki doesn't have perfect pitch. She goes flat a number of times. But it's RnR so who give a shi* as long as she's expressing what she wants. So there's no vocoder or autopitch device going on with them at the smaller venues. I'm sure they use it in the studio. But live, if you really go off pitch, autotune will jack the pitch around to the nearest correct pitch and it will sound mechanical. Autotune is just a tool.
I wonder if some people think it's better to not use other tools like reverb, echo, compression, delay, backing tracks, etc. or maybe not even tune your instrument when doing a live performance. And those costumes and stage lights. They should be playing nude in the natural light from the sun, right? No tools, props or sets... or electricity! Only acoustic outdoors. 🤘😆
In the early days of BAND-MAID, when they were still quite minor, they performed at small live houses in local cities and festival events in local cities over 100 times a year. Among them is Shibuya's ``EGGMAN'', which they felt was their ``home''. It's a small live house. It's not an environment where studio-type effects like "Autotune" are used. BAND-MAID has continued to operate at small live houses and festivals where part-timers are in charge of the PA, and where the PA is used only for vocals. And they have achieved their current status solely through the excellence of their songs and performance skills. Vocals are also included in the excellence of their performance.
If you're talking about a pitch shifter, like the ones built into karaoke toy microphones, the band doesn't use those things.
20:37 BAND-MAID Moratorium reaction starts
Fil is very good. Glad to hear you reference him.
Still my most watched. AKANE driving it home at the end gives me goosebumps everytime.
Don't You Tell Me....i mean i won't tell you my most watched. But i will tell you to have an awesome Christmas, Jeremy. And don't be tempted by any Santa fruit machines, the elves turn down the payout percentage this time of year so they get their wages....probably.😏
@@GaryHolloway-810 hahaha. No no no I keep all my winnings.
First exposure to Autotune for me so thanks for that!! Great song....I enjoyed that one quite a lot!
Thank you!
Great breakdown Sir... and thanks for another shout out... Never knew how they did it so thank you, now I do.. Great reaction to Moratorium one of my many Band-maid favorites...
Oh.. If you haven't already, go check out Nemophila's latest song released yesterday called Oddysey.. Probably one of the best things you will hear today...
Also another new metal/rock/??? band from Japan for you.. All female, 6 members Drummer, Guitarist, Bassist, Singer, Keytarist and Saxaphone? It's very different..
TWILIGHT / ステミレイツ - STMLT -MV
Best wishes from France
Thank you sir. I will check that out. I hesitate to post new releases cause I wonder if it will take views from the O.V. But then I think, well, it also encourages people to see more of the band so..... Anyway. lol Thanks for the watch!
@@RockCandy-ix3nn I appreciate that sentiment, but I believe once they post it on their page as an official release you are good to go. I think you will be amazed by this and you will, like us that there is nothing these Ladies cannot do...
Agree that autotune often ruins the raw live feeling of the vocals and produces an artificial effect that is frankly deceptive in being much too perfect. About 5 years ago, Fil from Wings of Pegasus reviewed Band-Maid's live song "Play" and was amazed that they didn't use autotune, which he found to be quite refreshing. Occasionally, the Band-Maid's vocalists will use audio distortion and processing effects to enhance a particular song segment, but otherwise they seem to refrain from autotune, especially during live performances. Band-Maid is one of those very rare elite groups that consistently produce stellar music in the studio and also perform incredibly great music live on stage. The are an amazing band and certainly one of the best, if not the best, rock band currently performing today. Happy holidays. Cheers!
Xmas is not a good time of year for me....I am alone...(no friends or family) and my late partners BDay is on the 26th...so....It kind of sucks....BAND-MAID is the light in that darkness...(with a little TRiDENT thrown in). Long May They Reign! 👑
I pray your Christmas is way more than you hoped for this year. I find the fact that these bands can lift us out of the darkness to be incredible. After a long and destructive period in my life , Babymetal pulled me out of a dark pit and helped me to live again, and I didn't think ANYTHING could do that. Bandmaid was next and it has just kept going. From doing nothing but watching TV all day and sleepless nights to posting my 100th video today in 6 short months it feels like a miracle, and more than a little scary sometimes. lol It was then I discovered I was not as alone as I thought I was but that people just didn't know how dark it was inside me - and those that did didn't know what to do so they just gave me space. I know how dark that place is but I hope that you see that one tiny ray of light that leads you through this season. Try to have a Merry Christmas. I'm sure your partner would want that.
@@RockCandy-ix3nn Thank You for your kind words....I can only hope...Glad to know you have been able to make something out of your darkness inside...It shows that it's possible..
Merry Christmas. I was in the darkest place for many years. Almost ended with wet brains. Not anymore. Band Maid every day and I may see them live one day.
My apologies if you took my (or any comment) about auto tune in a negative manner. I intended only to give information, no animosity involved.
The Band Maid community is passionate and supportive, but just like the Maids, always respectful and kind.
In your defense, the specific segment you were talking about in “Blooming,” you are likely correct that pitch correction (along with other effects like doubling) was used in studio, in my opinion.
Enjoy the knowledge and passion Band Maid fans have and ask all the questions you want. Like Rush fans before them, Maidiacs are little walking Wikipedias.
I’m so happy you picked “Moratorium” and can appreciate the songwriting. I’m with you on wishing to know how the heck they put these masterful songs together. How about that “Alice in Chains” bridge into the solo!?
Back to the topic of songwriting. Not sure you know, but Band Maid has released four instrumental tracks. Along with several instrumental versions of their songs. They can do this because of their songwriting strengths.
Here are the three you haven’t heard yet:
“Without Holding Back,” “Don’t Be Long,” “Onset,” with the latter having a brilliant official live version.
Merry Christmas 🎄
No offense was taken and many made these comments. So, I thought I should clear up the apparent confusion over what I meant - that the "Auto-tune Effect" was not pitch correction. I'm not sure I succeeded in all cases. lol. I can't listen to BM without being blown away by the composition. Songs chock full of interesting things but they never feel crowded - know what I mean? And yes - That bridge had me absolutely Gobsmacked! So, We heard "Dice" on this channel as an instrumental and it blew me away. I'm anxious to do the rest that are on YT so I think we just might do those next. Every observation and difference of opinion is welcome here. You took great care not to offend and you did not in any way, shape or form. Thank you and Merry Christmas!
Dude, bandmaid uses autotune even live..
The objection for me is using autotune during a live performance. Studio has always been about getting a "perfect" sound, by whatever means. As an example, the heavy use of studio musicians instead of the actual band members.
Good point!
I always have to post this Intro that Kanami used to do for Moratorium sometimes. She lets Mincho out to play. Really shows her Punk DNA.
ruclips.net/video/2bJXFFAqifU/видео.html
That was fun! Thanks!
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On Autotune - use of Autotune by singers in general
As you said, for information on Autotune, watch 'Wings of Pegasus'.
An english guitarist, who has done a lot of analysis videos of singers, to see if they use autotune or not.
- Wings of Pegasus - So it's official. NOBODY knows what MUSIC is any more.
- Wings of Pegasus - I REALLY don't know WHAT to think about music anymore!?!
- Adam Neely - Fixing Led Zeppelin with Autotune
Another old school musician with decades of experience:
- Rick Beato - How Auto-Tune DESTROYED Popular Music
- Rick Beato - Modern Music's Death By Auto-Tune
Other topics:
- Quantization - Rick Beato - HOW WOULD JOHN BONHAM SOUND TODAY? (Quantized)
- backing tracks - Rick Beato - Is Performing With A Backing Track Cheating? My Opinion...
As you said, most consumers of music listen to Autotune every day, almost all of them without knowing.
Well said - and thanks!
This was a great discussion of autotune and the difference between proper use vs. abuse of the technology. Some people also get offended if you suggest a band uses backing tracks for live performances. Thats just being unrealistic. Lovebites use backing tracks live because, let's face it, there are only five of them and none has more than one mouth or two hands. Where tech becomes a bad thing is when it becomes a crutch. Well explained.
Thank you.
Skip to 21mins
You probably know right now that as far as I know Kanami composes all the elements of a song, even the drums- there is the famous cowbell discussion between Akane (out) and Kanami (in) in the song Chemical Reaction from the Unseen World album, as Akane does not possess a cowbell. I digress, Kanami takes her arrangement to the band members who make any additions. I gather that the only person left to do her own thing is Misa. I've thought the same for some time- Once the members of the band know their parts, how much rehearsal time does it take to get it right?
Yes! And as with anything, the longer you do it the more refined it is so....when does one stop? lol
thanks for the "do you believe in love" torture sequence lol i love Cher just not that one i am still trying to figure out the "boris..." reply from a previous comment dammit i know i should have gotten it
21 minutes of auto tune discussion? I like your reactions, but it is sacrilege having that in front of Moratorium! May I suggest you drop your sermons at the end of your reaction videos? That being said, great reaction. Rock on 🤘
Normally I do but I didn't want anyone that cared to miss what I meant by saying the band used the auto tune effect. To that end I pinned a comment at the top directing people how to skip the discussion. Perhaps I'll upload this without the discussion. My bad. Thanks for watching and commenting!
One of the few times you see Kanami doing backing vocals
Great explanation of Auto Tune & its use within the music industry. Please check out “Corallium” I believe this to be their most creative song & I love to hear you reaction
Will do! Thanks.
I think they used subtle auto tune-like effect in the intro only in the studio version.
I was fascinated by your discussion of auto tune and pitch correction. I stopped doing live sound before it became prominent, but I did use doubling with pitch modulation for vocal thickening. Live, it had limitations because of increaseing vocal gain and causing feedback in the mains (before line arrays raised the feedback threshold). The delay gap between the live feed and the double affaects the relative phase between them, so keeping it tight means the phase offset is fairly small in the midrange, therefore more gain, therefore feedback. I’d love to mess with auto tune to see how it behaves. Merry Christmas to you and yours and to all the fellow fans of your channel.
Thank you! Yes, I can see why Fil spends so much time examining it. Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!
A little "out-of-tune" is not crisis. It makes interesting things happen. I have a 12-string guitar. I love the sound. It's never exactly in tune. When you press a string to a fret, it goes just a little bit sharp - you added a little extra tension to it. You can move the saddle a bit to compensate, but a wound D string and an unwound D string an octave higher are different. The compensation will be wrong for one of them. Which one do you want to be correct? But it's okay because they start phasing and that adds depth and richness.
One point. It shouldn't take someone singing harmony any time to find their pitch. It's the same for everybody. Most instruments don't land exactly on pitch for certain notes. Bb on a trumpet will be flat, for example. It's the nature of instrument. All the wind instruments have this problem, and (most) trombones rely on a slide! The fiddles and violas and celli and basses don't have frets. Except for open strings, your finger placement determines the pitch. Additionally, orchestras don't play to tempered tuning* and you are expected to match them. So, how do you find your pitch? You hear it before you play it. If you are a professional in the musicians union looking for work, it is expected of you. The same applies to singers. If it takes you time to find your pitch, if you are bending to your pitch, you won't find work. Listen to Manhattan Transfer or any other really good vocal group and you'll hear singers who hear their pitch before they sing it, and start the note on pitch. That said, certain kinds of music need to be "out of tune" (by western standards) and blues being the glaring example. Do you want to cut the heart out of a blues lament? Pull those flat notes up to pitch and you'll make a human's pain sound like a robot with a wiring problem.
I gave up on Phil several years ago. I felt like he was one of those musicians who'd reached a certain level of competence but was still just a little inexperienced. Vibrato, for instance. He had an opinion about the proper width and frequency for "good" vibratio. He criticized the some excellent musicians because they didn't meet his standard. Vibrato is one of the most personal characteristics of a singer or player. It is an expression of who they are. It is deeply affected by what culture they come from and the style of music they are making. What's appropriate for opera is not appropriate for blues. What's appropriate for enka or norteño isn't appropriate for bluegrass. If he'd had some humility I would have kept listening but, as often happens, he took the position that he's the expert and he knows what's good vibrato, and anyone who disagrees is uneducated and wrong. Ironically, it made him look uneducated and wrong.
* There is a caveat here: It depends. Sometimes pianos will be tuned for the pitch of the piece being played, and sometimes they'll use tempered tuning. Sometimes the orchestra is playing with an instrument where tuning is not feasible, like a pipe organ. This may cause the maestra/maestro heartburn if they care enough about it. Getting a string section to change their playing can be like turning a buffalo stampede. By the way, I'm strictly an amateur. My guitar playing sucks and I hardly play in the community orchestras these days. My singing is sometimes on pitch. I tune the higher D in pitch and let the lower D go a bit sharp, because it sounds better to my ears. In fact, I tune the unison B and E strings just a 10th or two different, because it sounds better. My opinion. Thank you for attending my Ted Talk.
@@surfingasongwaveOh yeah. those instruments with holes and pistons are the worst. You think that you tuned it up perfectly and there are always few notes fall slightly out of tune. I guess it has its charm for sure though.
Actually I really enjoyed your analysis. I think they might have used autotune for that particular spot in Blooming, it is the kind of song where using the robotic touch to the vocal is appropriate, and most fans prefer the 'touched up' version compared to live version because it's tastefully done.
But don't worry too much about it. Even this official live video is slightly pitch corrected in post production but their vocal performance is becoming very consistent these days that I don't think it needs to be touched up. Band-Maid is pretty open-minded about using backing track, effectors and vocal distortion when they want to add particular texture to particular song.
Fans always say Band-Maid has to be experienced live.
Thank you for Charing.
Thank you too
Why share?
When you can Cher.
Saki? It's Saiki (Psyche) because there's an i in it. George Martin did a lot of the arrangements for The Beatles.
LOL! When I pronounced it that way earlier someone commented it was Saki - not Saiki.
Well...They're stupid, don't listen to them. LOL!@@RockCandy-ix3nn
That someone might have been talking about Saki from Nemophila?
OK, so we are just talking symantics. You are talking about "Auto-tune" the product that, yes, can be used to do many things, when I hear Auto-tune and I only think about pitch correction. I am sure that Band-Maid's engineers and mixers use Autotune and other electronics means to "enhance" a certain artistic sounds the band wants. Of course, singers have been "doubling" their vocals for richness since The Beatles, and obviously John Lennon couldn't sing both vocals lines simultaneously live. To your point, I think what I have an issue with is when the live song sounds too different from the studio because it was "modulated" in studio past the point the actual singer has the ability to do it live. Perfect example of this in BandMaid is Sayonakidori. Sometimes, Miku can hit "the note" live, sometimes she can't. Same with Pau's scream in The Warning on Evolve. She never gets through 8 bars live like on the studio. The real question to me is whether I think the singer did, on their best day, get there in the studio without "having" it to be corrected.
It's not semantics if we are discussing 2 different things. I never referred to pitch correction in the original video - I was referring to the "Auto-Tune Effect". I only explained the pitch correction aspect of Auto-Tune in this video to help you better understand how the "Effect" is done. Thanks.
@@RockCandy-ix3nn Hmmm, that's kinda the definition of symantics colloquially, when two people perceive the meaning of a word or phrase to mean different things, but 🥔🥔, I get your drift. It was my mistake, I misunderstood the meaning of your original diatribe, though I am a bit confused still as to its purpose. Perhaps this isn't the channel for me. But thanks for spreading the Joy that is Band-Maid's music and, moreover, their aura. One can't hope for World Domination through music without range and exposure.
I think they doubled both Saiki and Miku's tracks in that spot, because why wouldn't they?
Shame on you for making me listen to cher , especially for this badass band of maids song
I don't think the misunderstandings around this topic are specific to any particular band, country or generation of band. It's a topic that interests me so I understand how, for example, autotune typically looks different from other forms of pitch-adjustment in frequency-space.
However, for most people autotune has simply become a byword for compensating for the limitations of a vocalist using pitch correction, and also for an artificial sound (which I personally can't stand) which you show examples of early in your video. And of course many music-lovers - including me - are vocal in their hatred of this. So it's difficult to use the word without it sounding like a condemnation. Add to that the baggage of the prejudiced comments (not from you) that Band-Maid fans are used to hearing/reading, and....
Anyway Moratorium is one of my favourite songs. Thanks for giving it a listen. Have a great Christmas.
Your point is well taken. I am in complete sympathy with the fans as I think many of these Rock and Metal bands fom the East (specifically female) do not get the respect they deserve. In retrospect it is clear that my attempt at clarification of a process touched a nerve. Thank you for a great observation and hope to see you here again.
There’s a huge difference between auto tune n backing tracks band maid doesn’t need or use auto tune for their vocals kanami composes all the backing tracks and backing instruments
I believe Cher's "Believe" is one of the first if not _the_ _first_ well-known songs that (ab)used very aggressive settings on autotune.
The part you highlighted in "Blooming" is Miku harmonising with Saiki. Their voices harmonise very well and they are very well trained in it, which is obvious in their live performances.
BAND-MAID do use vocal effects in their studio recordings. Saiki often harmonises with Miku, but sometimes Saiki also harmonises with herself which undoubtedly involves layering and pitch correction to get the desired effect (here manual pitch correction is _not_ the same as autotune). They do this live as well with backing tracks. Then there are the intentional LoFi microphone effects on some songs.
_If_ they use autotune on their studio recording it is very subtle. Going by Saiki's live sound she doesn't _need_ autotune; she always hits the notes clean. The few times she didn't was when she was struggling just prior to the polyp removal on her vocal chords (this live version of "Moratorium" was from that concert where she was struggling a bit every now and then).
Thank you for the insights!
I think you are hearing close harmony between the singers. I have heard tons of autotune over the years, but not at a Band Maid live performance. They definitely do multiple vocal tracking on their recordings. Nothing homoginised about Saiki and Miku. I'm sorry, but this is a swing and a miss.
Thank you. I'm not sure what it was I was just trying to explain why I thought I heard it. lol. Won't make that mistake again.
Honestly, I don't consider them as songwriters, I consider them composers. Kanami really does the arrangement ahead, but she is very collaborative, to a point. For example, there is one song (Chemical Reaction) where Kanami wrote in a cow bell. Akane really didn't want to use the cowbell, but Kanami insisted, and it is in there. Also, Play was supposed to be an instrumental, but Saiki heard it and wanted lyrics, so Kanami let her have lyrics. But then, Kanami lets Saiki get away with anything.
"All for One..One for All"....That's how I see it with BAND-MAID...I am so jealous of the friendship and camaraderie of this band..In a good way...Just wish I had it in my life...Long May They Reign!👑
Play turned out to be one of the best "song" after all. I don't think Kanami is obedient when it comes to music. Even after Saiki's vocal surgery she keeps throwing even more vocally demanding songs in Saiki's way. 😂
They just are the perfect team, composing songs together, making albums together. Not one member can get away with doing nothing or doing everything.
It's very obvious with Cher. Most pop is that way now which sucks in my opinion. I'm old school.
Agree. The blatant OVERuse of it ruins music for me. That's why I don't follow artists who do that. It sounds very artificial. Reminds me of when vocalists used to warble their voices
I cant say for sure but its NOT likely BM used autotune since you have only found this one unconvincing segment. Bands that use autotune dont do it for a few seconds in only one out of 130+ tracks.. I lean more towards BM using effects (not autotune) that you hear because they use it in many songs they write. You are wrong in one aspect of vocals......singing harmonies does NOT make you hesitate or search for your key. Most professional vocalists know when and how to hit their measured harmonies perfectly. Its from muscle memory. Unless you are a vocalist its hard to understand this concept. Its like playing an instrument without looking, which is attainable through long hours of practice to develop "muscle memory". So, seeing that your basing your entire theory on a 1 second vocal clip, ignoring or not understanding basic concepts of vocals, and knowing BM uses vocal effects (again, not autotune) on many of their tracks...the only conclusive opinion is that you found no evidence to say that BM used autotune. I hate autotune also but I dont allow that to cloud my judgement. When you are not sure, you have to have more factual evidence with a sharper common sense approach. By the way....that Cher song is what created that animus I have for autotune.
Great clickbait but you're way off.
There have been a few times when all of the members have hit bum notes live.
I'm not talking about pitch correction. I never said that. I said it was used for the "Effect"
Yep, they use effects and tracks and it's fine as we know they are just enhancing what they are performing.
Band-maid use vocal effects but I'm not sure if they use autotune that often, I heard it in the song Honkai, but I don't think they used it in Corallium, where probably most other bands would use heavy autotune in that type of song. At least not in live version.
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