Comparing System Shock 2 and Bioshock
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- Опубликовано: 16 авг 2019
- Here's part 1 • The MasterClass in Hor...
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BIOSHOCK www.humblebundle.com/store/bi... NOTE: I've intentionally chosen the original version of Bioshock instead of the remaster that was made in 2016 because not only does the remaster have it's fair share of glitches but also the original has no DRM on it. You might have some issues with resolution and scaling to 16:9 but other than that the game works fine. Both of these are affiliate links by the way if you weren't able to figure that out.
Bioshock and System Shock 2 are both must-plays when it comes to gaming. Both are pioneers in the gaming industry and represent crazy amounts of advancement for gaming as a while. Both of these games are made by the same director and team: Ken Levine and Irrational Games. It feels like they took everything that made System Shock 2 great and made it even better for Bioshock. Let's compare the two to get a better idea of how far we've come.
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Yes to your final question. Infinite should have been called quantum shock, prey should’ve been psychoshock
@Nostalgic Waves idk about nano but neuro works good. Or neural
I'm staling the name psycoshock if I ever do make a video game. That is such a good name
@@007megaoof just make sure the first key code is 0451 ;)
@@christiangottsacker6932 oh I will but what the hell should the game be about?
@@007megaoof a giant mental institution that is run more like a prison, where the inmates govern themselves, or maybe a story about mass propaganda that doesnt reflect anything you see in game, misleading the character while they're mind shuffles to understand what's really happening on a basic level.
I've played both games a lot of times, but it's not ideal to compare them. Bioshock is much more focused on combat than System Shock, which was more of an RPG than a shooter. I'd say the true successor to System Shock 2 has to be the new Prey, at least in terms of mechanics alone.
SS2 had plenty of action especially the further you progressed. I don't think BS was any more focused on combat than SS2. BS was focused on the world building, story and atmosphere, combat and gameplay felt secondary to that.
@@ToveriJuri I was talking about mechanics. SS2 is an RPG, BS is a shooter.
Prey actually had consequences for upgrading your powers to a certain point, brain washed npcs actually had dialogue for when you take them out nonlethally, like that one who had the codes to a storage room with loads of upgrades, but you wouldn't know if you didn't invest in some skills that on paper sound subpar, my first playthrough I went full movespeed with the dash move and it felt like doom. 2nd playthrough I went full hacking and repair and it felt like a deus ex lol.
Bioshock had very little choice
@@everinghall8622 Indeed. Go play System Shock 2 - you'll find out your skills are much more important than just combat options. I don't think you can even beat the game without a specific skill (which the game tells you beforehand pretty clearly).
And there's... what, 10 years of game-format development/changes between the two?
Tripping the alarm in System Shock 2 SPAWNS new enemies in for the duration of the alarm, also an active alarm can be turned off exactly like in bioshock
Bioshock is a gateway drug to System Shock 2 for younger people.
IMHO I prefer System Shock 2 to Bioshock..but I love Bioshock 1 and 2 for how fun they are.
THE HACKER
Anonymous Anonymous good argument. Anyone who likes a game more Than a game you do like are stupid because bioshock is stupid and system shock is not stupid. You’re a genius bro
@Anonymous Anonymous So anyone who see this will go to SS2 expecting an amazing game way better than Bioshock
And they will got clunky gameplay, stupid controls, and an unbalanced upgrade system that makes you need to level up hacking (or otherwise good luck searching for every ice pick in existence)
I hate people who praise old games as they were some kind of perfection when newer games are "bad"
Nah, thats just stupid
@@templariox32
You have to have some stomach for old games, that's true. SS2 has more complexity and player agency in it's gameplay but lacks conveniences and simplifications that modern gamers are used to. It's not for everyone certainly off putting to kids who weren't even born when SS2 was out.
Thankfully You can basically have a similar experience to SS2 with the 2017 Prey which follows SS2 gameplay far more closely than the Bioshock games, but it's a modern game with modern fluidity and quality of life improvements.
@@ToveriJuri i know, this commentary was just to exemplify the stupidity of elitism itself
I dont think that kids wouldnt get or anything
Anyone who started Ss2 even in the 90s wouldnt get easily, its a kind of game who requires paciency and careful study/experimentation of its systems
After some time you would master it and play better like it was a cakewalk but again, it requires paciency
I'd say that Prey (2017) is much more of a spiritual successor to System Shock 2 than Bioshock.
Unquestionably beyond a couple of interacting systems(like shocking a puddle or setting gas on fire) I struggle to see how bioshock is even remotely similar to an immersive sim.
great vid but I think Thief: the Dark Project should be added into the equation,too. Ken Levine follows a relatively similar story arc in this 1998 title where a jobgiver character in midgame is revealed to be the main antagonist in disguise. Just like the protagonists of bio/system shock, Garrett is left to die after revelation but survives and taking revenge becomes a vital task in the story.
Spoilers bro
Badtanman the game has been out for over 5 years
Bow to the Woodsie Lord and offer up your flesh-eye so that His eye of stone may see!
There is also no real "pure stealth" mechanics in those games, except for prey
System shock 2 is way more immersive. That game grips me so much. Bioshock starts off really strong but it starts to drag after the big reveal imo.
In the game files, BioShock levels are named in relation to their System Shock 2 counterparts like Fort Frolic being called Recreational :D
Still I would take System Shock over Bioshock any day.
I like the setting much more with its claustrophobic corridors and a real feeling that there is just nowhere to run and Shodan is just a perfect villain.
Even today she haunts me.
And yeah I think the genre of immersivesims is needed but it doesnt have to give you any kind of "superpowers". For me its a genre that lets you just roll with everything, where the level and gameplay are open and well thought out and give you so much freedom that you can work out a creative solution for a problem yourself.
imo the combat for original system shocks are weightless and boring, and the horror elements seem cheesy sense i dont have nostalgia for the game
@007 megaoof acually going back and really really playing the old system shock games. there better then i thought. the combat to me is still weightless, but that atmosphere is unmatched
@@tactical-funky9565Only thing I don't like about System Shock 2 is the shooting itself is clunky, but everything else is amazing! The RPG elements, the atmosphere, etc. all dope! If System Shock 2 just had the amazing non-clunky shooting of something like Half-Life, it would've been like a 11/10 game. But even with the clunky shooting, I'd give System Shock 2 a 9/10 cuz everything else is amazing.
But even despite BioShock is more action focused, the shooting itself was better, but still lacking and a bit too floaty for my taste.
Idk why people keep saying inventory management is hard or that the UI is confusing. Once you get the hang of it you don't even think about it.
Aye hell I got so used so system shock 2 controls I had to completely change how I map other games like minecraft. That tabbing to open inv became so smooth I can't go back to press e and leaning mechanic is something I wish all games with guns had as leaning is fricking awesome
@@blindedjourneyman Yeah I actually really like how ss2 handles these things and wish more games had systems similar to it. Deus ex also had a pretty good system for managing inventory and accessing information and stuff although it's not as elaborate as ss2.
SS2 actually has a lot of one-time consumables like French-Epstein devices that with clever gameplay let you skip a games worth of skill checks provided you make up for it with other stuff.
you mean Jeffrey Epstein device
I remember getting a recycler and originally recycling them thinking they were trash until I accidentally put it on one of my weapons to see it get upgraded. Felt like QUITE the moron.
I love Bioshock and its sequels, but they're so shallow compared to system shock 2, allowing the player to use anything they find with no cost requirement really limits the games replayability, the only reason i felt i had to play Bioshock again was to see the other of the 2 main endings,
and it's funny (you)Charlatan said that the (edit) *research in SS2 was tedious, i found it so much worse in Bioshock, with the slow ass snap a pic, freeze the game, and (skip the) slowly fade in the image, over and over again, multiple times for every enemy :/
Bioshock was great, but i feel it stripped away too much from what made the original amazing :/
You started talking about hacking and then described the research process.
@@ethai1 hahaha good catch, i meant research :D
2 did all of that stuff perfectly imo
Just a note, Shodan didn't ALMOST become a god, she did become a god. She was able to use the FTL engines to alter reality. She also didn't get killed by the soldier, she ended up in Rebecca.
Bioshock was a good game. System Shock 2 was a great game.
Shodan and the Many were completely unmatched in Bioshock. The Big Daddies and Little Sisters were pretty good, and the Fontaine reveal was good. But compare the Shodan reveal to the Frank reveal, not even close. The only advantage that Bioshock has is the hardware.
I knew that chick was Shodan like 20 minutes into the game, maybe it was the silent "insect" that punctuated her speech
4:12
Dude, just press "U", lol. The game comes with an actual bind to play unread log messages. Also, you can press backspace to stop any email from Shodan or any log that you're listening to.
exactly that allows you to listen to them when you choose, and not have them play immediately over what ever combat is happening :D
@@MICKEYrenraw The only downside is that it plays the one you picked up most recently, not the oldest one you picked up and haven't listened to -- but this also doesn't really matter since you don't necessarily pick up the discs in the correct order anyway
@@therealshug iirc the first log in ss2 chronologically is in fucking ops
worthy successor to the bioshock games question I think best answer would have to be Super Mario Bros. because you go down pipes and there are swimming levels and that's sort'a like Rapture - getting the mushroom that makes you big and the fire flower seem like they were trying to rip-off the plasmids idea
Nah it was just a tear conecting rapture to the mushroom kingdom
Suchung and bowser are good friends
Underrated comment
9:18 "we need to go get this plasmid, or else we cannot Kontanue"
System Shock is way more scarier and intense
System Shock 2 was designed and played on a PC during a time that made awesome use of standardized keyboard/mouse controls and brand-new hardware accelerated graphics at very playable resolutions. This took immersion to a new level of anything we were used at the time. I don't think people talk enough about the era in which such games came out and why they were so magical when they were first played.
With that context, soon after Deus Ex came out (a game very much like System Shock 2 in glorious impact), studios understood that if they didn't target the growing console market, then they wouldn't be able to succeed. And thus, with Deus Ex: Invisible War, we saw compromised versions of the games we loved...and us PC guys had to play ports of the console designed versions. This sucked.
By the time Bioshock came, again, we are dealing with a console port...and all the negatives that brought: simplification of game play, a reduction of RPG elements, clunky game menus, etc. It too was a compromise of the games we loved. So, I totally disagree that Bioshock delivered the same experience. It didn't then, and it still doesn't now.
Not to say console games can't be good...or that Bioshock itself isn't good...but now we know what to expect with console games.
But back in the day, the best games were designed for PC...and the PC will always be my preference for playing such games...and truthfully ANY game of a "sim" nature deserves a PC in my eyes...being able to bind a keyboard is an important part of the way we PC guys like to interface with our games. And I'd argue that such customization is an important part of the immersion.
The best we can say about this "comparison" of games is that, truly, they likely have far more differences than they do similarities.
What do you think about Prey 2017?
@@pigeondude2468 true successor, hands down. Bioshock 1 and Infinite is just "stream lined" system shock. Kevin Levine is just George lucas of the gaming industry, all ideas, none written well, very much like Lucas, he can't write himself out of a paper bag and need fans to do that FOR him. But also like George lucas... we all will miss his ego when he's gone... i don't trust these new guys for Bioshock 4... so we cling rightfully to Prey 2017
SS2 > Bioshock, which, yes - is very dumbed down.
Try the new Prey. Far less focused on combat than Bioshock and much more like System Shock 2 in terms of mechanics and progression. Not so much with atmosphere, which is less cyber-horror and more just sciense-gone-wrong.
I've played it.
No its not. Bioshock is refined SS2
@@ThatDjinn More like try OLD PREY and tell me why New Prey was even called PREY ? ...they half-killed that game with this decision.
@@blindeyedblightmain3565 Not in the slightest. Bioshock is an arcade shooter, System Shock is an immersive sim FPS. Both games don't communicate, aside from the Shock in their names.
I see a lot of comments shitting on Bioshock and praising SS2 to heavens and beyond. I've played both games, Bioshock years before System (which I only recently started playing). They're games of the same genre, similar enough narrative and elements present in both games, but clearly not trying to pull off the same thing.
Being stripped of the rpg elements and (for some) the tedious inventory management isn't at all a bad thing, just another mechanic. Bioshock was a shooter packed with more action, so it needed to bring out all the weapons and plamids so you can have your own fun with it and get the most out of it, and honestly system shock 2 could do just as well without investing modules into agility, endurance, strength or anything else (which Bio had replaced with spending ADAM into health and eve and such). Besides, for example, standard weapons in system shock are incomparably better than energy weapons, and going for a run with energy weapons is just a handicap if you want a harder playthrough. Same goes for psionics, which you can completely ignore and still get an amazing experience.
I think people are pulling off the "new bad, old good" shit just because it's the cool thing to do nowadays. Both games are truly great games, and there's no need to compare them in this way when we can enjoy them both for different reasons.
One thing about SS2 nobody is really mentioning is how limited you really are in customizing your character. Energy, heavy, and exotic don't exactly have a lot of variety unlike say a better realized game, Deus Ex, which you can go full pistol, rifles, or heavy right at the start and it's fine. The same with the psi skills. Cool there's so many skills!!! But then you look through them and realize most are just filler and only a handful are useful. So this whole SS2 is the best game ever thing is just as much of a lie. Both games have pros and cons but I think Bioshock is more approachable. SS2 takes a bit of patience to get into.
Energy weapons are okay if you don't have armor piercing rounds available, but yeah, ap round assault rifle will kill anything
System Shock 2 has a lot of cool ideas and lore but the gameplay left a lot to be desired compared to Bioshock.
@@omegasupreme5527 On impossible difficulty supplies are much scarcer and more expensive so you'll probably run out of ammo really fast if u go through the game full auto shooting worms with am rounds and such. Energy weapons are good at dealing with robots, are very very accurate, have zero recoil and theoretically have infinite ammo (power stations, electron cascade, portable batteries). Also, the laser pistol has the overcharge mode which deals a lot of damage. Last, but not least, the laser rapier is the second best melee weapon in the game and absolutely shreds mechs. Yes, I agree the assault rifle is by far the best ranged weapon in the game, but on higher difficulties, you might find yourself in need of efficiency rather than firepower due to respawning droves of enemies. In the end it all depends on your intended build. I'm currently running an OSA melee powerbuild with standard weapons 1 (so I can use the very useful pistol from the very start in case I ever need a ranged weapon), exotic weapons 3 (to be able to use the op crystal shard as my main weapon with a sufficient 30% dmg bonus and the rest into useful, versatile, and sometimes broken psionics (adrenaline overproduction, heal, electron cascade, photonic redirection+localized pyrokinesis, metacreative barrier+soma transference xd). While I concur that standard guns + hack build is probably the lowest effort one (even maybe on impossible, if you know what you're doing), psi builds are definitely the most fun and creative (and potentially the most broken) ones.
Bioshock is, in comparison, just a shitty console port that can't hope to even come close to the complexity and creativity of the former game.
P.S. I also disagree with your statement about the stat system. I think it was great as it added another level of character customization and progression, not to mention that those base stats were actually the foundations of the whole RPG system.
Miss ya bud. Always loving the content.
Another great video man. I still remember when you made funny drawing about Planetside 2 and how it sucks to be a squad lead. Look how far you've grown.
"they are an integral part of the game play [...] both occupies the same role as a non weapon alternative for combat but also can be used as a way to enhance conventional combat by using them as stuns or dot while ya shooting at an enemy..."
OR BEEEEEEEEEEEES *laughs maniacally
Both games are great.. but System Shock 2 is by far the better game and one of my all time favorites.
Bioshock is very good game but system shocknis state of art, work of genius
Ss2 is an immersive sim. Bioshock is an immersive sim that was consolized and turned into a shooter. I cant blame the devs though, ss2 didnt make enough money to keep the studio alive. Bioshock made 2k millions.
This is a really good vid. Great way to start my day. Love your content
Bro, you're 'critiquing' or burning System Shock 2 a lot in favor of Bioshock whilst it definitely was not a better game.
Well, he's called the charlatan for a reason lol
@@everinghall8622 hehehe
I still remember playing System Shock 2 for the first time. It had so many things that were new at the time, like scripted events happening around you, the integration of story and atmosphere and the way it used voice overs. At the time, it was the most atmospheric game I'd ever played, and I loved it. I'm not the type to try to min-max and beat a game, I just want the experience, and this was the shooter for me. I was psyched about Bioshock, but was pretty underwhelmed when it came out. Maybe in part the more cartoony vibe turned me off.
Still waiting on System Shock 3 to be realized but at least we've finally gotten the Nightdive remake of the first System Shock and it is glorious!
It was System Shock, not System Shock 2 that established it.
Personaly I enjoyed the seting and story of Sytem Shock 1 more than 2 along with the fact it was basicly a metroidvania game the way you would go constantly up and down citadel station to get upgrades to progess closer to Shodan and stop her evil plans.
Also despite being a PC game from when I was 1 year old dear god did this game still creap me out with it's soundtrack, disturbing implications in certian audio logs, and Shodan herself which is kinda underwhelming in 2 as she's overshadowed by her own creation and working with you as she isn't in control like she is in SS1. Everytime I saw a screen with her face on it I knew she was watching me that even in a room I had cleared out I was never 100% safe. Which is why I'm excited for the remake next year.
@Salmon Aran The video is specifically talking about the story-telling with that comment.
It was System Shock ,not System Shock 2 that established it. System Shock 2 is merely iterative in that regard.
@Salmon Aran Nope, with that phrase he was specifically talking about story-telling.
Which again, is false.
@TheVoiceOfTruth No but it was one of the games to popularize it besides Metroid 1 &2 were out by the time system shock 1 was made, I was just saying i prefer that layout to the straight forward style ss2 went with for it's progression
yeah, once you started talking about SS2 inventory being cumbersome and Bioshock's lack of it being intuitive, you kind of lost me.
And your comparison on research is the nail in the coffin. This video makes me think you don't care about immersive sims. Don't know if it's really true or not, but that is the vibe you give off.
I found research in SS2 amazing and intuitive. Made sense in the risk and reward department, everything ran in the background making it different from other actions I could take and in a game like SS2 that is very appreciated. The reasoning behind is good to, of course you are going to learn about a new species by studying it's tissue etc. Bioshock's I thought abhorrent. I hated it so much that I barely even used it. Thinking the game thinks I'm stupid enough that I would believe by taking a few photos of these enemies would make my character stronger was almost insulting considering other bullshit this game pulled on you like making death inconsequential due the Vita chambers, all enemies being bullet spongy as triple hell, and the terrible and nonsensical water pipe mini-game when hacking. Every single element in Bioshock is almost in a state of dissonance from each other. I would find myself ignoring game mechanics just so I could immerse myself in Rapture, for each of those mechanics was just another way of taking yourself out of it. Not to mention taking the photos in on itself was not fun or engaging at all. Just some video game junk snack food for forced progress. Yet another thing Bioshock 2 would make better.
Although it was a great vid and everyone entitled to their own opinion, i kinda feel a retrospective video like this is best done by someone that played the games when they first came out, SS2 has a great deal of complexity and that doesn't get handled well in todays gaming space, but it was that complexity that made and KEEPS the game great
As such i feel SS2 will age better then Bioshock (ignoring graphics) SS2 has the depth to keep people coming back, Bioshock was just a fun roller coaster that i remember fondly but feel no need to return to
You’re clearly not a Bioshock fan then. ^^
No comparison. Going from System Shock to Bioshock is like leaving your mansion to live in a tent.
@Anonymous Anonymous goddamn. Be easy, holy shit. Really no one else was really harsh.
@Anonymous AnonymousIt's not like BioShock is a horrible game lmao
I legit can't figure out where to go or what to do in syetem shock 2, I spent hours wandering the von braun killing shit
System shock 2 was outright better than bioshock. System shock 2 always felt like me trying to survive a near no win scenario with RPG elements fused with fps, Bioshock felt more like a dumbed down action version made for consoles.
Bioshock near its end felt like a chore and i don't see me picking it back up to play thru anytime soon...
System shock 2 i play every couple years and i'm looking forward to system shock enhanced in hopes of co oping the game with my wife (she's never played it thru).
I do understand if someone thinks i'm a little bias due to my profile picture...I'm not, the game was just that good.
Shodan’s just a pretty good profile picture either way, like JC Denton.
Sorry but bioshock has the better story and gameplay
Jeffrey Ali Ok.
SS2 > Bioshock. Always and forever.
Time after time you mention the various conveniences that Bioshock offers to the player as evidence of its superiority to SS2. But this is a non-sequitur. Why should researching new life forms (for example) be convenient? I loved the researching in SS2 and the tension it added by forcing the player to take risks they otherwise wouldn't have to. You know what would be the most "convenient" thing of all? Having a button you could press that would instantly win the game.
Unfortunately, the fact that you conflate convenience for superior design is what forms the core of your argument here. That's why your argument fails.
I personally prefer BioShock, but I will say that if the game was placed anywhere other than Rapture, System Shock 2 would be better
Bioshock has unique gameplay that ss2 doesn't have and a great story to boot with one of the most shocking twists in gaming history
@@jeffreyali3644 You're not wrong about Biochock's fantastic narrative but in the final analysis this is just one consideration among many. Atmosphere (by which I mean, the moment-to-moment "feel") is more important than narrative IMO, and although this is something both games do well - ultimately I give the edge to SS2 as it is grittier, more oppressive and, simply put, a more "hardcore" experience. Reasonable people can disagree about what matters more here, I think, and age may have something to do with it (I'm old).
Bioshock is for sure a great title. But SS2 took more chances and inspired a generation of developers. It will always live in the annals of PC gaming history.
While there is a lot of good in your video, it isn't what i expected from the title, as it's more what Bioshock improved over System Shock 2, while somewhat compare it's settings.
But the games don't feel like something from the same series or like spiritual successors to me. As the way you play and experience the games is just so different.
Asa System Shock 2 still does not have a focus on combat, the way bioshock has, or to more precise you don't need to be any good at an fps to be good a system shock, as reflex are rarely what counts and foresight and building a character is way more important.
At least in my opinion System Shock 1 is a metroid style game, System Shock 2 kinda is a Castlevania style game and Bioshock is "just" an action adventure.
The reason why i don't say metroidvania, is as the way character progression works in both game types is way different. Castlevania uses an rpg system while metroid uses and upgrade system
Thanks to the the fact that both System Shock 1 and Bioshock use an upgrade style of character progression, Bioshock in my opinion feels more like a hey what if we made System Shock 1 for consoles with actually fun controls. With most console games feeling fundamentally different to pc only games. See Moba or real time strategy.
Also while there were a few things that System Shock 2 brought as a first to the table, most things were already there in the first one, just without any polish or playability at mind.
About audio diares in s.sh. 2 Its just dawned on me. Its like modern way to send messages. Instead of writing it they record audio messages. Hm game was ahead of its time.
I first played Bioshock and I enjoyed it a lot. Some months after that I played System Shock 2 for the first time, and while I did have fun, the similarities (and at the same time, the differences) between the games made me realize I played Bioshock "wrong". Like I didn't really understand what the camera was for, and I didn't pay much attention to matching ammo types to certain enemies. So a few months after that I played Bioshock again. And you know what? I enjoyed it more than I did the first time!
oh, the camera sounds in both games may sound similar, but I doubt they are the same. On the other hand, there is the sound when you use a hypo in system shock 2, which is also used in bioshock when you use a first aid kit.
I'm not sure how much of a valid comparison it is between SS2 and Bioshock, outside of tracking the different works of the same developers, as they aren't really the same kind of game. SS2 is an RPG, Bioshock is a FPS with bells and whistles. If comparison is necessary I tend to go with Bioshock is to SS2 as Bioshock Infinite is to Bioshock; prettier, better gunplay, simplified mechanics, more mainstream. When looking for a successor to SS2 Prey 2017 is the best candidate by a country mile.
Just finished SS2, and I played bioshock for the first time a few months back.
Tbh I think I enjoyed SS2 more, probably due to the setting. I like the stronger sci-fi horror vibes. I think the endgame was better too
I don't think Bioshock is as good as System Shock 2. I can get into SS2 despite its bullshit because it has delicious mechanics and gameplay. I can't get into BS1 because there is not a lot to get into, it's a shooter with a magic system and a compelling narrative.
I enjoyed bioshock more for its atmosphere and it has a really unique setting and fps focus over rpg but objectively system shock is more mechanically interesting and deserve the immsim praise more.
Shocklike for 2020! One could only hope.
I found Bioshock really boring and the atmosphere was just not there... for me anyway. On the other hand System Shock 2 is simply amazing
Man I want another bioshock so badly
I would say that having a "shock-like" genre is extraneous, since all of those games belong to, and have created, the "immersive sim" genre. The difference of whether you do interact with other NPCs or not... I would consider not that important.
Don’t want to be rude but did you listen to Shodan. She straight up tells you about why and how you see “ghost.” There was no reason for you to need to look it up.
I think Bioshock 1 is only an okay game, Bioshock 2 made literally eveything better. So I think it would make sense to compare both SS2 and BS2 if we are to talk about the maximum exponent of each design philosophies. Bioshock 1 kind of triggers me because of how praised it was despite of the superior predecessor (left in obscurity) and superior sequel (criticized too nonsensically and harshly). Either way still worth the effort. but idk
Okay then
Bioshock 1 had atmosphere and gameplay that was meant to be replayed overtime encouraging the player to play harder difficulties and try to immerse themselves deeper and the gameplay went hand and hand with the atmosphere its slow and scripted at first but there are literally infinite ways to approach situations you have to get creative especially on survival bioshock 2 improved 1 thing graphics. The shooting maybe felt slightly better too but not enough to mention and bioshock 2 has half the length and replayablity of the first and it has absolutely no helplessness or atmosphere because you are gigantic and overpowered as a big daddy thats why bioshock 2 was left in the dust i like that game but 1 is way way better than 2
@@tobinmonroe3046 Ridiculous, you are far more overpowered by the endgame of Bioshock 1 than you are in 2, which is a far more balanced game. 2 also had the looming threat of Big Sisters and far more waves than BS1. None of the games are scary at all either way.
@@BinaryDood I love bioshock 2 I agree its underrated but I can't seriously ever think its better than 1 and definitely nowhere near as deep as 1 no way in hell it just never had the same impact on me its got a weak ass storyline and nothing that really happens in it like all thats really better in it is physics and that isn't much
@@BinaryDoodalso the whole point of fuckin bioshock is to be underpowered and do multiple playthroughs to get overpowered it took me 4 playthroughs to get every single thing in the first game in bioshock 2 I had almost everything after the first playthrough. in bioshock 2 you are more powerful than jack from the start of the game with no real progression in my opinion I never felt it got harder either and the thing that really made it not have an impact in my opinion is that ending 2 hours of the game literally right as you get to start really enjoying bioshock 2 it ends its like 4 hours long at least I've sunk hundreds of hours into many 8 hour playthroughs of bioshock 1
Both are great games in their own ways.
Too many system shock fans hate on Bioshock (while also misunderstanding and misrepresenting it) when it isn’t necessary as both are great.
I played SS2 back to back. Hard to impossible mode. Loved the game the atmosphere, being in space, the music, etc. Absolute must play 10/10 just like half life. I was then excited to play Bioshock, and got about half way through it and couldn't get into it at all.
I'd call them shock games survival immersive Sims, but shock like for short does seem better, although compared to mainstream media/gaming immersive Sims have become more niche over the years, shmups being another example of a genre that when you mention it today most responses would be ??? What that
_"Bioshock manages to streamline the gameplay of SS2 without making it feel like a lesser experience"_
Debatable. Outside of the obvious limitations of tech back in SS2 days. Just about everything about SS2 feels better and more involved. Bioshock dumbed down the gameplay and the RPG mechanics too much. I say this without a hint of nostalgia since I only played SS2 after Bioshock.
Anonymous Anonymous Calling BioShock trash is a pretty stupid thing to say. Look at the shooters from around the same time, and you see that it’s way more refined than them. Twist is pretty decent, and the shooting and combat is way better than ss2. Atmosphere and setting is also more original in my opinion. I think comparing them isn’t really fair, because ones obviously more of an rpg with fps elements, and ones more of an fps with rpg elements. Both are great. Just because BioShock isn’t complicated and cryptic doesn’t mean it’s bad. A game doesn’t need deep convoluted mechanics to be good.
@@Austin-ec6og
How is comparing them not fair? Bioshock is supposed to be a spiritual sequel to System Shock. It's in the name.
Fact is BS is a dumbed down SS2 that looks prettier and is designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. That is especially apparent when we go to down the line into BS Infinite, which is barely anything but a mundane shooter. If you want an experience BS is fine, if you want good game mechanics SS2 is better. I was bored by BS, it's on rails nature and mundane gameplay mechanics.
*Prey (2017) is what Bioshock should have been.* That game is the true spiritual sequel to SS2.
As much as I do like Bioshock, I can't help but feel like it's going to feel pretty dated to SS2. The shooting already feels pretty bad compared to the shooters of it's time like FEAR, Halo, ect. SS2's shooting mechanics aren't great either to be fair, but SS2's true focus is all the immersive sim/RPG Elements under the hood that make it feel fresh by today's standards. Bioshock did the Aesthetic/World Building better IMO and it's a treat to actually explore Rapture, but inevitably I feel like the Von Braun, and SS2 as a whole is a timeless, and much more rewarding game. I'm glad I replayed Bioshock this year, but I have no real desire to come back to it any time soon. Meanwhile I replay SS2 every couple of months or so, sometimes even in a row because of how differently the game plays each time depending on what skills/weapons you use. It's like getting a Little Caesar's Pizza, All the ingredients in Bioshock are there and it's still tasty, but the experience is definitely not as refined or as deep as the Mom and Pop store down the street.
Also, I saw your comment on Prey: I absolutely agree, Prey is probably the closest thing to a System Shock inspired game we've gotten in a while and it's pretty magnificent lol...
Toveri Juri Because Bioshock is an fps and system shock is an rpg. They both have the same director, but Bioshock isn’t a sequel or anything. Bioshock infinite is definitely a weak game, but Bioshock 1, and Minervas den are art. They have a masterclass in atmosphere and music. Bioshock isn’t some military shooter made to appeal to 9 year olds, it’s a beautiful game with powerful themes of art and science clashing with morality. Just because weapons don’t degrade and there’s not deep rpg elements doesn’t make it bad. I don’t think anybody is claiming Bioshock was meant to be system shock 3.
@@Austin-ec6og
Do you understand what a *spiritual* sequel is? Everyone called BS spiritual sequel when it first came out because that's exactly what it was. It doesn't mean it has to follow everything the original did. We know BS certainly didn't, but it has enough commonalities with the game, prey just implemented the gameplay far better.
Bioshock might be a masterclass in atmosphere and music, but it's also a video game and the better aspects of it are harder to appreciate because you still have to engage with the dull gameplay. I prefer something like Soma to Bioshock. Soma focuses on one thing and doesn't derail it's atmosphere or themes with dumbed down substandard video game elements since it's barely has any. Bioshock could have made the same story and same atmosphere and the same music without making the gameplay worse. But they valued simpler mechanics for broader appeal, something that was easier for the masses to pick up and play. It's a smart business choice and I can't hate a company for doing the smarter thing for their future, but that won't make me like the game.
There are definitely really good parts to Bioshock, but the gameplay keeps me away from wanting to engage with the good parts again.
You don't have to "fiddle through menus" to play logs in SS2. There's a hotkey for it. And logs were far more effectively done in SS2 because a) They didn't require you to believe that everyone was lugging around these giant tape recorders, and b) They weren't so focused on delivering player-centric information.
Regarding the "ghosts" in SS2, the explanation you said you had to look up is actually delivered explicitly in-game to the player.
Security alerts in SS2 don't tell every (existing) enemy where you are. What they do is summon in an unending supply of *new* enemies which know exactly where you are. These can be different from the enemies that normally populate the world. To deactivate an alert you just go click the nearest security console.
"Your main modifiers are implants." Straight-up false. I'm guessing you said this because you were trying to force a parallel with Bioshock's tonics. In Bioshock tonics are the only way to upgrade your character, whereas in SS2 you have implants, O/S upgrade stations, software version upgrades, and the entire set of stats, psi, weapon, and tech upgrades.
Your comment that "everything is done through a menu" in SS2, as if that's a bad thing, is a bit of a laugh because in Bioshock *nothing* can be done through a menu. Instead you have to go track down machines somewhere in the levels to perform any tasks other than shooting and healing. This was a pain in the ass and I hated it.
And finally, hard disagree that Bioshock doesn't feel like a lesser experience. SS2 is a survival-horror action-RPG immersive sim, whereas Bioshock is just an easy, simplistic shooter set in a world filled with impossible technologies that was fortunate to also be very pretty and have some marketable character designs.
These are games in which you experience true progression. It isn't just your in-game abilities that evolve, your own ability to incorporate them for your purposes also evolves. You literally feel more skillful as you progress.
I played the SS2 demo, which covers the first part of the game, up to the level and door above the first cybermod station.
I then played the real thing. And I was finishing that first area (that I had played in the demo a number of times), as I was moving to the door, the first ghost appeared. It was not in the demo and scared the living piss out of me.
That was a very good prank they pulled.
I was maybe 18/19 when I first played SS2. We only had one PC and had to take turns in my mum's room - I remember the one and only time I turned the lights off and wore headphones, I lasted maybe fifteen minutes before hearing the first cyborg midwife talking to herself about her babies.
It really was kinda clunky & things like the huge complicated inventory system and default movement setup were a pain in the arse (I remember cursing it at the time), but they were stepping stones that led to better things.
It was just how things were, I hadn't played any RPG's at the time so didn't pay it much mind, but I could tell how BioShock built upon that strong foundation. I love all the games in the series, but they are all products of their time.
Here's a hot take for ya: Burial at Sea pt. 2 feels more like SS2 than Infinite!
Gods, that DLC was nervewracking, especially since I went straight into 1998 mode first go...
I just wanted to pop in and say that I love your name! I’ve never watched a video of yours, but your channel name is peak
Good video but I have a few issues. I like them both but I have some issues with SS2(You focused more on Bioshock so I am going to focus more on System Shock)
I don't think the character building in System Shock 2 was handled the best (there was no character building in System Shock 1 BTW so don't say that my suggested changes to character building are "not System Shock"). You need to speck into research to beat the game which I think is unacceptable in a game like this that prides itself on being able to build your character however you want.
Also repair and maintain. Repair allows you to fix already broken items and maintain stops items from breaking in the first place. Maintain is way more useful there is repair to the point of repair being worthless Why couldn't have these been 1 skill ?
Also I think the inventory space being so limited discouraged experimentation. If you can only hold a few weapons you are less likely to switch weapons and just stick to what you know works Kind of stagnating the gameplay. I think how they could have fixed this is having dedicated inventory space for weapons (before you complain that this makes the game to easy and is "not System Shock" the first System shock actually had dedicated inventory space for weapons.) Also implants don't help you meet minimum skill requirements which limits you even more.
Also OSA characters were just bad and had no value outside of novelty. The abilities are to expensive and not that good. I think if they were more usable in addition to a regular build as opposed to being an alternative they would be better.
Exotic weapons, Exotic weapons stink of "overbalance" .Overbalance is when a developer is scared something will make a game to easy so they restrict it heavily but then it becomes worthless. The premise of Exotic weapons is that you take a short term hit for long term benefit. You can't spec into Exotic weapons until later. The only really good one is the crystal shard. The other ones don't do much better if any better at all then regular weapons. Their ammo count is just as stingy if not more so and they require high maintain and research to use optimally.
Also I didn't like exploring the Von Braun. I felt like it was to samey and to dark with not enough color which made everything blend together. Before you say that SYSTEM SHOCK IS A HORROR GAME IT HAS TO BE DARK !!!!!! Go look at the first system Shock. It is super colorful. Also Bioshock has way more distinct landmarks.
I will agree that Bioshock went to far in streamlining, but that doesn't mean System shock 2 was perfect and some of it's changes were not for the better. Yes it has less options but the reason people don't mind is that you have more usable options. Take guns for examples yes there are less of them but you can equip every single gun at once while in System Shock 2 you could only have a few at a time.
13:50 "You might have noticed a lot of the major deviations from System Shock 2's original formula were ways to outright improve the game without oversimplifying or diminishing the entertainment value of any of the game's mechanics"...
perhaps you should have read the script from the past few minutes of the video? You just listed quite a few mechanics that were completely removed or gutted into pointlessness....
"without dumbing it down"? I'm sorry... no. three quarters of your video pretty much only lists things that were removed or simplified. How is that not dumbed down? You may prefer it, fine by me... but just be honest about it.
It really must be a matter of what you played first, it seems... Most people I know played System Shock 2 first and weren't all that impressed with Bioshock, to be polite. I was honestly kinda pissed that this shooter with some magical weapons (i.e. plasmids) had been marketed as a spiritual successor to System Shock 2.
The biggest reason why BIoshock is playable on a controller is not some sort of brilliant design... it's because everything that needed some form of more complicated UI was completely removed from the game... and since character build choices are hard and require thought, they were scrapped in favor of a "just equip what you need right now" "system". Great for an FPS, but for game that's supposed to have some RPG elements in it? No.
Same goes for the research: Sure, it was annoying at times in System Shock 2.... but it required a bit of thought from the player. Bioshock simplified research to the point where it will never go wrong and you will never miss a chance to do it. Great for a straight FPS, without a doubt, but in a supposed immersive sim with RPG elements? Once again, no.
At around 19:00 you talk about choices in subplots of Bioshock.... I'm a bit confused, what choices are you talking about?
If System Shock 3 ends up being the spiritual successor to Bioshock, I'm going to be seriously pissed.
This, bioshock is painfully dumbed down. For me having played SS2 first playing bioshock was like going from champaign to lambrini
I slightly prefer system shock 2 to bioshock, the inventory tree system in system shock 2 alone is amazing. The only difference between these two masterpiece is system shock 2 is slow-paced and bioshock is fast paced and the gameplay is more on linear and its passive storyline.
I never played the original thief games, are they considered Inmersive sims too?
Yes as you told the objective but how you can accomplish them is up to you, and there tends to be a lot of ways :)
Play them immediately, they are legit the best games ever made.
@@user-og6hl6lv7p not number 4 tho, dont ever play that :D
@@MICKEYrenraw oh shit yeh, avoid the reboot at all costs!
@@user-og6hl6lv7p I Hope you're happy, since I started playing Thief a few weeks ago
Just a question. Is Bioshock as open as System Shock in regards to one being free to go anywhere, or is it more linear? I've been meaning to Bioshock for a long time, but that detail is what's keeping me from playing, I played Bioshock Infinite, meh pretentious story, fun gameplay with big areas to explore, although it was rather linear, and I would replay SS2 ten times over Infinite, so, is Bioshock 1 more like Infinite or more like SS2?
I'm hella late. But bioshock 1 is EXTREMELY linear.
Also infinite sucks in comparison to bioshock
@@noaha6185 what? I'd argue its fairly similar to System Shock 2 in terms of linearity, and that Infinite is when it really became super on rails
When I asked a friend if they made System Shock 3 (this is back in the mid 2000s) he gave a big grin and said they turned it into two games that were coming out soon: Bioshock and Dead Space.
Honestly? Dead Space is kinda closer in themes and general tone but Bioshock is closer in mechanics. In spite of the lack of inventory.
Fun fact: that's because Dead Space WAS System Shock 3. EA had the rights at the time and wanted to take advantage of them but then Redwood played Resident Evil 4 and it inspired them so much they entirely changed the game. That might be why the levels in DS are so similar to System Shock 2 e.g. medical deck, then hydroponics, crew quarters, etc.
@@CharlatanWonder Thanks for the reply, that makes a lot of sense now. I knew about the Resi 4 thing but didn't know EA literally had the System Shock rights. Would say it's a shame but... I wouldn't want to imagine how bad SS5 would be like if our timeline got DS3. Redfall but earlier, probably.
Constants and variables my good sir
Without even having started the video as I watch this, one thing I can immediately think of that Bioshock does better than System Shock 2 is making the paranatural build much more viable. Psionics in SS2 are pretty much a waste of time, since ways to recharge them are hard to find and they are generally inferior to guns and hacking skills. Plasmids were a lot more bang for your buck, and the Tonics system of passive boosts further augmented the ability to play your style without just being generally bad.
One of the few good criticisms of SS2 (at least in comparison to bioshock) is that its not well balanced the Psi system and end game being good examples.
Ss2 is still a better game imo
God System Shock 2 is fucking awesome
great video and yeah i think shocklike is a thing
tencent is making ss3 :(
I always upgrade the shotguns firerate first in BS, in SS2 always hacking first, btw in BS you can at least freeze what you want to hack for more time
Meh, both games feel very different apart from the fact that your character gets better as time moves on. SS2 felt like a real place, Bio shock although excellent feels like a slightly expanded corridor shooter with little point in backtracking. In SS2 and Prey it's not really "backtracking", or doesn't really feel like backtracking. You're just there, in this place where shit happens. Shit happens at my house too, I just have to walk through the living room several times a day because that's life, and that's what SS2 and Prey feel like.
Sure, I also happen to like space better than being underwater, but I was much more immersed in SS2/SS1/Prey than Bioshock. I was more immersed in Subnautica than Bioshock.
Even Dead space did the "slightly expanded corridor shooter" thing better than Bioshock IMO. Bioshock is just so fucking clever that you don't feel constrained, but really you are. It's still a great game though and everyone should play it.
I don't want to say anything stupid but u could move during the "research" in ss2, so research was just a "secondary" gameplay loop i would say. Yes u had to find the chemicals, but during "research time" you could do whatever u wanted
Wish you had compared it to Bioshock 2 more.
i gotta say, i prefer bioshock to system shock. the entire would-you-kindly part of the plot downright blindsided me and it was a very clever and subtle aspect to the game that makes complete sense in retrospect.
also, anonymous anonymous, get bent. i read the comments and saw you spamming that copypasta
And how clever and subtle did you think it was that Fontaine's big plan was to have Jack get back to Rapture by CRASHING HIS PLANE and hoping that he survived.
@@ZylonBane jack is literally a biologically engineered superweapon. He can take a hit from a charging big daddy and survive. Not to mention the plummet was softened by landing in the water and slowing the plane way down.
I never once in bioshock felt motivated to explore, also 0/10 I can't drink 400 sodas to heal myself
@@everinghall8622 first thing i always did was explore the shit out of the level before i did the objective sometime i would even sequence break the game by accident
I'd easily watch 100 videos of you dragging Bioshock Infinite
Bioshock is a Linear Shooter... System Shock 2 is a Open World Metroidvania...
Boom :)
How is it open world? As far as I remember after you get to the rickenbacker you can't go back to previous areas.
@@ethai1 i guess a better way of putting it is non linear open level design
@@ethai1 you sure about that. I was able to take the gravity elevators back down just fine.
@@randyramirez4408 I remember a certain area which once you get to, you can't go back. I think BioShock works the same way.
Could Alien: Isolation be considered a "shocklike" then? It's pretty lineair and doesn't have the RPG elements tho.
absolutely loved SS2 but I found the cartoon-ish steampunk design of bioshock off putting
I love bioshock 1 and 2
I like Bioshock, I really do. But when I compare the two games, I honestly prefer System Shock 2 over Bioshock, and not exactly by a small margin. I disagree with what you said about the research camera of Bioshock. I absolutely despise that thing, it pauses the action terribly, and unlike SS2, it's basically forced on you. In SS2 I didn't do research on a few enemies, and I could still manage them. Enemies on Bioshock, even when you do research on them, are absolute bullet sponges. Research on SS2 is not really obtrusive. You can research something while you are exploring the world or doing anything else.
Combat in both games is... Not that great, but I argue that is worse in Bioshock, because of how many combat sequences the game throws at you, and by the end of the game, where it's basically a combat gauntlet, I always end up feeling exhausted from the game, something that didn't happen in SS2 to me.
Though, when it comes to story, I think that's honestly up to personal preference. I really enjoy the objectivism focus of the game and the lore of Rapture but after the big plot twist... The story really falls apart for me. Fontaine is simply no replacement for Andrew Ryan if you ask me. The later levels are not fun for me as well. That's in part because of a stupid difficulty spike. I play the game normally and even still, the last levels are like hell.
I honestly feel time hasn't been that kind to Bioshock compared to SS2. Sure, you might need to get a little more used to the menus of SS2, but that game is a heck of a lot better during replays compared to Bioshock, mainly because of how incredibly open it is and how much customization it allows.
But... I still like Bioshock. I just don't think it's a masterpiece like everyone else does.
I really love your analysis! Both System Shock 2 and the Bioshock games really shaped how I approach narrative and interactivity in gaming, so I always consume good content about it.
Here’s where I become a douche and plug my own channel: I write music that explores the human experience, and I think you can really get into my lyrics if this is the way you think about media. Thank you for making this kind of great content; I know it’s very in-depth and intimate.
Not on console. So sad. I'm done with consoles, I need a PC.
System Shock 2 ran so that Bioshock could run just a bit faster
I'm just gonna throw this out there. I've beaten both games and I personally like Bioshock better. I find the setting and story to be more distinctive. Bioshock is just more fun for me in general. I do really like System Shock 2 and appreciate it for laying the groundwork etc. The techno music is awesome and the levels are very immersive too. I just don't find the gameplay as enjoyable. More complex doesn't always equal better game. This is all just my opinion. Saw quite a few negative comments toward bioshock on here and felt the need to write this for the sake of balance. Peace!
I understand the "comparison" but they're really different games types. I've never played SS series but I've watched videos
SS just seems to be more of an action RPG rather what BioShock is (what I liked to call an Augmented Shooter.. basically shooters with powers)
I don't know if you can really compare them other than similar aspects they used but the game is totally different.
SS2 is way better imo
nah, the controls sucked wayyy to much for me to enjoy it
@@tactical-funky9565 that's why the cyber modules exist.
@@gajo1256 no. I want lighting hands.
@@tactical-funky9565 boooo
@@gajo1256 cant hear you over my lightning hands
System shock.. bio shock. Both titles have shock and bio is a type of system..
Mind blown. Or mind shock
Hey! Be nice to Elizabeth! She's nice...and cute...like a grown-up Hat Kid from A Hat in Time.
Idk if we are at the point where theirs enough games for shock like to be a genre/sub genre. But if it where to happen the could be a game that is the dark souls of shock likes... Sorry for the bad joke.
This is a shocking video
RIP System Shock 3
System Shock 2
19:10 hahaahahahahahahahahahahahhahaha
lol everyone loves bioshock. i don't get it, it was really dull to me.
I agree.
PREY IS AMAZING YO!!
It's weird that so many people like Bioshock; system shock 1 and 2 blew my mind but bioshock is probably bottom 20 games I've ever played
Bioshock fanboy thinks it's better than SS2?
What a shock. (no pun intended)
BioShock > SS2 imo
SS2 is deffo better, especially in better horror (The Many's voices is real scary), more interesting mechanics and higher difficulty, but i tbh loved Bioshock more because i played it first , find it smooother, setting and vibe is what i like more, and the combat is fun and unfortunate that SS2's twist was spoiled for me and the ending of SS2 was kinda anticlimactic. Both have pretty good OST.
Love how you can add pts to agility, use a speed hypo ang go zooomin in SS2 tho, its also interesting that too much speed and crashing into a wall can hurt you. Both Bioshock and SS2 is definitely worth playing, both good in their own ways, just dont get spoiled like me hahahaha. Glad that Bioshock introduced me to SS2 tho.
I got prey and played it till I got the wrench and was like oh thanks Todd your not content with me buying skyrim 500 times you now want me to by system shock over and over again but with the clever tactic of calling it something else. What a master stroke 12/10 will buy all the system shock clones
Tbh, Im ok with the immersive sim formula, even though the wrench is kinda silly at this point.
@@vladalexan the pipe wrench is more believable than the little crescent wrench from Ss2 lol
@@everinghall8622 well, tbf, ss2 is quite abstract looking these days. Still, Id like something new, like a hammer or an oh so iconic crowbar.
I enjoyed ss2 more