Dr. Winter, a man of actual credentials and scholarship, must have colossal patience and humility in actually agreeing to debate with Douglas. It's like explaining something to a angry child.
What you mean the man who just defended the idea of sending people to prison for wanting to leave a religion? You people who defend this kind of thing are no better than the Nazis.
قسمت I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to see other liberals defend a man, and a position, that justifies jailing apostates. This is called 'illiberalism'. Liberal values are so exquisitely precious yet in the name of a kind of condescending, paternalistic racism so many other liberal-leftists are prepared to say that universal human rights aren't quite so universal after all. If you're a gay guy being bullied in the work place we'll rightly turn the place upside down - raise heaven and earth to get justice. If you're some Muslim gay guy, who's now being frogmarched up a tower block in preparation for being chucked off it, well, we won't say a word, and we won't bring up the fact that these punishments are, like the lynchings of gays in Christian Uganda, explicitly mandated by religion. The sensibilities of western Muslims are so delicate that to criticise aspects of their frequently horrific holy book, even if it's in defence of some poor sod cowering in a sharia court in Syria, is beyond the pale. That would be to stigmatise 'an entire community', even though all that's being criticised are very specific, deeply horrible aspects of Islam, which most Muslims say disgust them anyway.
Murray really did not know how to address Winters point that to fight against Islam in this chauvinistic fashion requires an abandoning of the very liberal secular democratic traditions that these conditions are supposedly meant to uphold.
Timothy Winter defending Islam re Apostasy 8:30 "Maybe a custodial sentence, certainly not the death penalty" So locking people up for wanting to leave a religion is ok is it? If, as Muslims like to claim, Islam is the religion of peace then the penalty for apostasy should be nothing. If Islam really is that great then why is there any need to threaten and force people to stay?
Im not an imam or anything but in a shahria run state the death penalty for apostasy applies to someone who openly admits to leaving Islam. If an individual makes it clear to the public they want to leave Islam but does not wish to leave the state then the death penalty is applied. That's the understanding I have
On the question of the penalty for apostasy Mr Murray asserted that the four main schools of sunni and sharia islam prescribe the death penalty; Dr Winter said that the Muftis of countries adjacent Jordan are professing “maybe a custodial sentence, certainly not the death penalty”. So a child born into a religious family adopts their religion as most children would. Whether Mr Murray or Dr Winter are right, Is it reasonable that, if the child subsequently decides to leave that religion, and expresses its rationale openly should suffer any penalty? I take Dr Winter’s point that Islamic philosophy is developing but it is not unreasonable for any person in western society to challenge and question the morality of that position without being labeled intolerant or Islamophobic - the vogue word - so new my spell checker doesn’t recognise it.
roloug95 The fallacy you have just committed is called false dichotomy. Refusing the rule of warmongering fascists like Douglas Murray doesn't automatically translate into accepting the rule of warmongering fascists like Anjem Choudary. Both are warmongering fascists and we have other options. What's funny is even though British Muslims have time and again discredited Anjem Choudary the media still parades him around as a representative of Muslims. The man has less followers than the crazy pastor terry jones and the pastor only has 50. What's even more funny than that is the MI5 thwarted assassination attempts targeting Anjem Choudary. why do the MI5 want him around so bad? and more importantly why do they have him on speed dial?
6:05 - Winter fails to admit, that countries that use Sharia as their penal code, DO have absolute authority. To suggest that Islam is a level playing field; where there is no power structure, or homogenous view, is just patently untrue, and is part of the bigger problem with the lack of reform within the religion. Saudi has centuries-old ethical positions on a wide array of issues, and you can squarely blame the enforcement of a particular type of Islam, on that.
Saudi Arabia is not representative of Islam but a form of pseudo political culture to keep the Kingdom's rulers in power. Turkey and Indonesia are equally different to each other and by far socially, culturally wide apart in comparison to Saudi Arabia. Apostasy is not a mandatory sentence. During the time of the Prophet there were apostates. There is no record of imprisonment or death.
Saudi Arabia's society is deeply influenced by a brand of Islam. To say it's 'not representative of Islam' is completely untrue, because they are using a literal interpretation of the scripture. To say that you don't want that brand of Islam to be present in the religion today, is a sentiment we obviously share, but we're not there yet, and the only way we reach this point, is to say that this brand of Islam needs to end. Pakistan is in a similar situation, where Islamic bodies are directly influencing political discourse, by encouraging lawmakers to continue to uphold a conservative interpretation of Sharia, rather than a reformed, benign version, in its court of law. Any movement away from conservative Islam is a good one, but to say Islam isn't the reason there's a problem with conservatism in the first place, is a complete lie. The ideals that make women second class citizens, the rampant homophobia, the rampant honour killings; these things do not occur for no reason. They are present in some majority Muslim countries, because of the way Islam is upheld in those societies. Ideas and their actions do not occur chaotically and randomly; they are a result of prior environmental causes and influences.
Reform of Islam? If that's what you're referring to, I'm more optimistic than you are. However, there will be a dark period ahead if progressive, liberal societies (Australia/USA/Europe/etc) choose to ignore the very real problem that conservative, and extreme values are being cultivated through Islam; values that we should be actively rejecting (homophobia, sexism, censorship, capital punishment etc.). The first step to solving the problem, is identifying there is a problem. Religious and cultural conservatism is the problem, and with the quelling of these ideals, there will be less suffering in the world. It can happen; Christianity is further along the path to reform (bar the homophobia) due to the influence of secular reasoning.
Scott Kay Your optimism is based on current political correctness and loose morals. Look at the statistics of wants and desires to be fulfilled at every whim. What next? Bestiality? Multi-sex marriage, the pandora's box is only the tip of the iceberg. Where does it start and where does it end? Islam does not need reform. It needs to revert to the original message and practices, which was based on compassion, mercy, social justice, freedom of belief, racial equality. Your liberalism has unleashed hell. Broken societies, drugs, mental health, suicide, inequality, financial mayhem, arms race. Ethical conduct is based on whims than on substance and teachings. Catholic Church is hardly a pedestal for moral good. Their history is nothing by treachery, death, wars, pillage (in case you forgot the Crusades, religious wars). Next time, someone rapes your sister, do give the other cheek. Bring along your other sister for the rapist to enjoy! You are grossly mistaken. If Muslims were in Europe, specifically Germany, well over a 1m Jews would have survived. Certainly not the concocted figure of 6m that has mesmerized the world but how is this figure calculated? Ask any scientist who is aware of gas technology, it would take them over 65 years to achieve this figure based on the primitive technology at the concentration camps.
***** True colors of an arm chair racist. Oven war mongering DNA seems so well embedded in your psyche. Your history has a fire trail blazing record. Will you never learn? Douglas Murray, the Etonian/Oxford homosexual seems to have you charmed. So many of that combination have devastated the British political landscape waging wars, foreign policy gaffes, financial scams and more. Do enjoy the hate ride. Haven't you twerps ever learned from history?
Timothy Winter is a powerhouse of intellect and yet is caught during this interview committing the fallacy of confirmation bias (the crutch of most intelligent religious people). A custodial sentence for changing ones mind and expressing it, and he expressed this as if it were some kind of moral victory. Even Cambridge University professors are susceptible to sloppy thinking and cult psychology.
So if you're trying to go from point A to point B, and point C is in between, then getting to point C is progress. Study history my friend. Rome was not built in a day. Neither were liberal democracies, they went through several progressive stages from abandoning the Catholic church, centralization of monarchy, then rebellion against monarchy to republic, then increasing the vote to non-land owners, then to women, etc. Winters understands this. Have respect for scholars and ask, don't accuse.
Classic...... The soft spoken scholar who offers the progressive possibility of a jail sentence for apostasy as evidence for criticism of Islam as unfair and ill informed!
So lets see on one hand we have a well credentialed scholar and on the other hand we have Douglas Murray... case closed
Dr. Winter, a man of actual credentials and scholarship, must have colossal patience and humility in actually agreeing to debate with Douglas.
It's like explaining something to a angry child.
go home.
What you mean the man who just defended the idea of sending people to prison for wanting to leave a religion? You people who defend this kind of thing are no better than the Nazis.
The people in Europe must have colossal patience and humility in actually agreeing to debate with muslims
قسمت I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to see other liberals defend a man, and a position, that justifies jailing apostates. This is called 'illiberalism'.
Liberal values are so exquisitely precious yet in the name of a kind of condescending, paternalistic racism so many other liberal-leftists are prepared to say that universal human rights aren't quite so universal after all. If you're a gay guy being bullied in the work place we'll rightly turn the place upside down - raise heaven and earth to get justice. If you're some Muslim gay guy, who's now being frogmarched up a tower block in preparation for being chucked off it, well, we won't say a word, and we won't bring up the fact that these punishments are, like the lynchings of gays in Christian Uganda, explicitly mandated by religion. The sensibilities of western Muslims are so delicate that to criticise aspects of their frequently horrific holy book, even if it's in defence of some poor sod cowering in a sharia court in Syria, is beyond the pale. That would be to stigmatise 'an entire community', even though all that's being criticised are very specific, deeply horrible aspects of Islam, which most Muslims say disgust them anyway.
+Woltato need to read and learn more about Islam ...
Timothy Winter is perhaps the leading Muslim theologian in Britain today.
I am sure Mr Murray could learn a few things about Islam from him.
lol
Murray really did not know how to address Winters point that to fight against Islam in this chauvinistic fashion requires an abandoning of the very liberal secular democratic traditions that these conditions are supposedly meant to uphold.
Timothy Winter defending Islam re Apostasy 8:30
"Maybe a custodial sentence, certainly not the death penalty"
So locking people up for wanting to leave a religion is ok is it?
If, as Muslims like to claim, Islam is the religion of peace then the penalty for apostasy should be nothing. If Islam really is that great then why is there any need to threaten and force people to stay?
Im not an imam or anything but in a shahria run state the death penalty for apostasy applies to someone who openly admits to leaving Islam. If an individual makes it clear to the public they want to leave Islam but does not wish to leave the state then the death penalty is applied. That's the understanding I have
Woltato punishment for leaving Islam is with God alone, there is no where in the Quran it says you should kill someone for leaving Islam.
+micheal74rich not mentioned at all in the Quran but mentioned in the old & new testament 17 times.
No, for condemning the state religion in a vile way openly. Not for simply not practicing a religion
Religion of peace ≠ religion of pacifism
Bravo Timothy Winter. Douglas Murray is just a hater and as they say, haters gonna hate!
On the question of the penalty for apostasy Mr Murray asserted that the four main schools of sunni and sharia islam prescribe the death penalty; Dr Winter said that the Muftis of countries adjacent Jordan are professing “maybe a custodial sentence, certainly not the death penalty”. So a child born into a religious family adopts their religion as most children would. Whether Mr Murray or Dr Winter are right, Is it reasonable that, if the child subsequently decides to leave that religion, and expresses its rationale openly should suffer any penalty? I take Dr Winter’s point that Islamic philosophy is developing but it is not unreasonable for any person in western society to challenge and question the morality of that position without being labeled intolerant or Islamophobic - the vogue word - so new my spell checker doesn’t recognise it.
In islam penalties are for adults not children.
Murray should learn more from Prof. Winter!
We need, no, demand that Douglas Murray and people like him become parliamentarians!
Not 'we'. YOU. 'we' don't want Douglas Murray or his like anywhere near a position of power.
a Neocon fascist as a parliamentarian?
jackriver1999 or would you rather the cancerous fascism of Islam and people like Anjem Choudry over run government?
roloug95 strawman much?
roloug95
The fallacy you have just committed is called false dichotomy. Refusing the rule of warmongering fascists like Douglas Murray doesn't automatically translate into accepting the rule of warmongering fascists like Anjem Choudary. Both are warmongering fascists and we have other options.
What's funny is even though British Muslims have time and again discredited Anjem Choudary the media still parades him around as a representative of Muslims. The man has less followers than the crazy pastor terry jones and the pastor only has 50.
What's even more funny than that is the MI5 thwarted assassination attempts targeting Anjem Choudary. why do the MI5 want him around so bad? and more importantly why do they have him on speed dial?
If Islamaphobia s a corruption then so is homophobia Also chang the word gay which means happy.
6:05 - Winter fails to admit, that countries that use Sharia as their penal code, DO have absolute authority. To suggest that Islam is a level playing field; where there is no power structure, or homogenous view, is just patently untrue, and is part of the bigger problem with the lack of reform within the religion. Saudi has centuries-old ethical positions on a wide array of issues, and you can squarely blame the enforcement of a particular type of Islam, on that.
Saudi Arabia is not representative of Islam but a form of pseudo political culture to keep the Kingdom's rulers in power. Turkey and Indonesia are equally different to each other and by far socially, culturally wide apart in comparison to Saudi Arabia. Apostasy is not a mandatory sentence. During the time of the Prophet there were apostates. There is no record of imprisonment or death.
Saudi Arabia's society is deeply influenced by a brand of Islam. To say it's 'not representative of Islam' is completely untrue, because they are using a literal interpretation of the scripture. To say that you don't want that brand of Islam to be present in the religion today, is a sentiment we obviously share, but we're not there yet, and the only way we reach this point, is to say that this brand of Islam needs to end. Pakistan is in a similar situation, where Islamic bodies are directly influencing political discourse, by encouraging lawmakers to continue to uphold a conservative interpretation of Sharia, rather than a reformed, benign version, in its court of law.
Any movement away from conservative Islam is a good one, but to say Islam isn't the reason there's a problem with conservatism in the first place, is a complete lie. The ideals that make women second class citizens, the rampant homophobia, the rampant honour killings; these things do not occur for no reason. They are present in some majority Muslim countries, because of the way Islam is upheld in those societies. Ideas and their actions do not occur chaotically and randomly; they are a result of prior environmental causes and influences.
Reform of Islam? If that's what you're referring to, I'm more optimistic than you are. However, there will be a dark period ahead if progressive, liberal societies (Australia/USA/Europe/etc) choose to ignore the very real problem that conservative, and extreme values are being cultivated through Islam; values that we should be actively rejecting (homophobia, sexism, censorship, capital punishment etc.).
The first step to solving the problem, is identifying there is a problem. Religious and cultural conservatism is the problem, and with the quelling of these ideals, there will be less suffering in the world. It can happen; Christianity is further along the path to reform (bar the homophobia) due to the influence of secular reasoning.
Scott Kay
Your optimism is based on current political correctness and loose morals. Look at the statistics of wants and desires to be fulfilled at every whim. What next? Bestiality? Multi-sex marriage, the pandora's box is only the tip of the iceberg. Where does it start and where does it end?
Islam does not need reform. It needs to revert to the original message and practices, which was based on compassion, mercy, social justice, freedom of belief, racial equality.
Your liberalism has unleashed hell. Broken societies, drugs, mental health, suicide, inequality, financial mayhem, arms race. Ethical conduct is based on whims than on substance and teachings.
Catholic Church is hardly a pedestal for moral good. Their history is nothing by treachery, death, wars, pillage (in case you forgot the Crusades, religious wars).
Next time, someone rapes your sister, do give the other cheek. Bring along your other sister for the rapist to enjoy!
You are grossly mistaken. If Muslims were in Europe, specifically Germany, well over a 1m Jews would have survived. Certainly not the concocted figure of 6m that has mesmerized the world but how is this figure calculated? Ask any scientist who is aware of gas technology, it would take them over 65 years to achieve this figure based on the primitive technology at the concentration camps.
*****
True colors of an arm chair racist. Oven war mongering DNA seems so well embedded in your psyche. Your history has a fire trail blazing record. Will you never learn? Douglas Murray, the Etonian/Oxford homosexual seems to have you charmed. So many of that combination have devastated the British political landscape waging wars, foreign policy gaffes, financial scams and more.
Do enjoy the hate ride. Haven't you twerps ever learned from history?
Timothy Winter is a powerhouse of intellect and yet is caught during this interview committing the fallacy of confirmation bias (the crutch of most intelligent religious people). A custodial sentence for changing ones mind and expressing it, and he expressed this as if it were some kind of moral victory.
Even Cambridge University professors are susceptible to sloppy thinking and cult psychology.
So if you're trying to go from point A to point B, and point C is in between, then getting to point C is progress.
Study history my friend. Rome was not built in a day. Neither were liberal democracies, they went through several progressive stages from abandoning the Catholic church, centralization of monarchy, then rebellion against monarchy to republic, then increasing the vote to non-land owners, then to women, etc. Winters understands this. Have respect for scholars and ask, don't accuse.
Classic...... The soft spoken scholar who offers the progressive possibility of a jail sentence for apostasy as evidence for criticism of Islam as unfair and ill informed!
Apostates receive a harsh penalty because no one pushed them into accepting `islam in the first place. so it's fair punishment.
This is why Islam sucks and doesn't belong in the modern world.
Chris Steer just your subjective opinion.
There is no "fair punishment" for having freedom of conscience.
Do you eat horseshit for breakfast? How the hell is those who were born into this religion had the freewill to choose their belief?
Hear hear Douglas!