looking at it beyond just covering the ledge options perfectly is definitely something people don't talk about, really helpful idea also helpful for me because I tend to hyperfocus on getting reactive punishes but not thinking about the risk reward on messing it up
Really loved the video! The only thing that (at least I felt) was missing was guidance on covering jump getup! Do you find yourself (with pit, for example) doing full ac nair to catch jumps? Or do you opt to stay on the ground/within your 3 main positions and shark the landings on opponents who choose jump getup?
@@PitProfessor-ow4vy Thanks for watching! With Pit, I tend to do either an autocancel nair or a bair placed on the jump arc to catch instant jumps. However, if I'm not comfortable, I'll tend to back up and just make sure to maintain the corner trap. Heavier callout attempts could put me at risk of throwing myself out of position, and so I'd rather keep the corner trap going. Hope that answers your question!
You can either preemptively cover jump with a relatively large or lingering move, run under them to go for a juggle, or retreat to catch their landings. What is best to do is dependent on your positioning, your character, and your opponent's character. Like if you are standing further from ledge when they pick their ledge option, most characters cannot really preemptively cover jump (there are some notable exceptions). Likewise if you are standing close to the ledge it's going to be harder to retreat to center stage and catch their landings because you have less time to react to any options they pick such as airdodges, movement options, and landing aerials. As for going for a juggle with up airs, you wouldn't want to go for a juggle against characters like cloud, aegis, chrom, or fox because it's much more beneficial to hit them offstage and go for an edgeguard. You would want to go for a juggle vs someone like Byleth or Zelda because you get more off of it.
A very good example pf coverage is kind dedede, which is honestly one pf tue best ledge trappers in the game. He combines coverage with reaction to land his trap and get really early kills
Yep! He's a really great example. Robin, Belmonts, R.O.B., etc., all have lots of great coverage options too. Coverage is a great way to ledge trap if you can set up the right tools!
Thanks for watching! Punishing ledge hang when your character doesn't have a great way to challenge it is definitely tough for sure. The default capability for all chars is ledge trump, but it is pretty committal and lots of people will see it coming if you overuse it. Still though, what tends to matter is the "threat" of being hit on ledge more than having a substantial followup. If people "think" you're going to be able to hit them, you can fake a poke attempt but back off to react to their ledge option attempt. Otherwise, hopefully you play a character that has methods of covering some of the ledge options to make your life easier. The ledge option timing is not everything, but keeping it in check makes your life a lot easier.
I do have a question. How do I punish Kazuya’s neutral get up to his down B, Gates of Hell? Because, the move armours my character’s damage. And, the risk reward is so bad for me. I play Isabelle. But, general character advice is best.
dash away, full hop, or (with good timing) spotdodge. if the character you're playing can recover from the bottom blast zone, and you have enough of a percent lead, then take the grab and hold offstage. that way kazuya dies and you still live.
typically with isabelle, you want to plant lloyd next to ledge and stand back and react to the opponents getup option. if they get hit by lloyd, great! maybe you can get a followup, or at the very least they're still in disadvantage. if they dont, you should be in a position to react and punish whatever they did. if you're not playing isabelle (or maybe you dont have time to set up lloyd), and the opposing kaz really likes neutral getup down b, just stand outside of range. if they whiff the down b, you can get a massive punish with either a smash attack or a combo starter. if you notice that they dont do it when you're standing in a position to punish it, you can try to bait it out. spend a little bit of time in range, and then when you think they're gonna go for it, dash away (or jump) and punish.
Thanks for watching and thanks for a great question! The solution I had in mind is similar to what Liam listed, where you plant Lloid and stand back to react. If you have the time to set a Lloid up, it's incredibly valuable in helping you cover Kazuya's available options. Placing it at ledge as they mentioned would work very well. At the end of the day, understanding where Gates of Hell or the Down B command grab reach are very important. The corner is already a pretty crummy spot for Kazuya to be dealing with Isabelle's kit, so it'll be more in your interest to hold stage positioning and find a way you can repeatedly keep them out; a trap on the ground will only make crossing that distance harder. Play around with where you can position Lloid and make use of more of your ranged spacing tools as they'll be much harder for Kazuya to break the zone against. Patience will help a lot, and practice makes perfect. Hopefully that helps!
5:54 Ledgedrop Flipjump into the opponent falling out of up smash is indeed a true combo for ZSS
looking at it beyond just covering the ledge options perfectly is definitely something people don't talk about, really helpful idea
also helpful for me because I tend to hyperfocus on getting reactive punishes but not thinking about the risk reward on messing it up
I define it as keeping them in the corner. You can miss your punish but if you focus on the goal at hand they are likely to be put in a bad spot again
I play game and watch and press b, I don't know why y'all are making it so complicated 🤷♀
Its fun to look at how simple things can be made into something more where we can improve in this new space
Just like basketball
very good
Really loved the video! The only thing that (at least I felt) was missing was guidance on covering jump getup! Do you find yourself (with pit, for example) doing full ac nair to catch jumps? Or do you opt to stay on the ground/within your 3 main positions and shark the landings on opponents who choose jump getup?
Agreed. ^
@@PitProfessor-ow4vy Thanks for watching!
With Pit, I tend to do either an autocancel nair or a bair placed on the jump arc to catch instant jumps. However, if I'm not comfortable, I'll tend to back up and just make sure to maintain the corner trap. Heavier callout attempts could put me at risk of throwing myself out of position, and so I'd rather keep the corner trap going. Hope that answers your question!
I think it did! What you’re describing makes sense 👍
You can either preemptively cover jump with a relatively large or lingering move, run under them to go for a juggle, or retreat to catch their landings.
What is best to do is dependent on your positioning, your character, and your opponent's character. Like if you are standing further from ledge when they pick their ledge option, most characters cannot really preemptively cover jump (there are some notable exceptions). Likewise if you are standing close to the ledge it's going to be harder to retreat to center stage and catch their landings because you have less time to react to any options they pick such as airdodges, movement options, and landing aerials.
As for going for a juggle with up airs, you wouldn't want to go for a juggle against characters like cloud, aegis, chrom, or fox because it's much more beneficial to hit them offstage and go for an edgeguard. You would want to go for a juggle vs someone like Byleth or Zelda because you get more off of it.
A very good example pf coverage is kind dedede, which is honestly one pf tue best ledge trappers in the game. He combines coverage with reaction to land his trap and get really early kills
Yep! He's a really great example. Robin, Belmonts, R.O.B., etc., all have lots of great coverage options too. Coverage is a great way to ledge trap if you can set up the right tools!
Yea smash isn’t really a fighting game it’s more like a pushing game basically making your opponent walk the plank
very good content !! one thing that i struggle is ledge hang cause my charac don't have a fast option like cloud's dash attack to punish
Thanks for watching!
Punishing ledge hang when your character doesn't have a great way to challenge it is definitely tough for sure. The default capability for all chars is ledge trump, but it is pretty committal and lots of people will see it coming if you overuse it. Still though, what tends to matter is the "threat" of being hit on ledge more than having a substantial followup. If people "think" you're going to be able to hit them, you can fake a poke attempt but back off to react to their ledge option attempt. Otherwise, hopefully you play a character that has methods of covering some of the ledge options to make your life easier. The ledge option timing is not everything, but keeping it in check makes your life a lot easier.
Who do you play?
@@shortesnameofalltime zss
Good vid 🫡 5:12
Ledgetrapping for bums, edge guard and sd 70% of the time
I do have a question. How do I punish Kazuya’s neutral get up to his down B, Gates of Hell? Because, the move armours my character’s damage. And, the risk reward is so bad for me.
I play Isabelle. But, general character advice is best.
dash away, full hop, or (with good timing) spotdodge. if the character you're playing can recover from the bottom blast zone, and you have enough of a percent lead, then take the grab and hold offstage. that way kazuya dies and you still live.
typically with isabelle, you want to plant lloyd next to ledge and stand back and react to the opponents getup option. if they get hit by lloyd, great! maybe you can get a followup, or at the very least they're still in disadvantage. if they dont, you should be in a position to react and punish whatever they did. if you're not playing isabelle (or maybe you dont have time to set up lloyd), and the opposing kaz really likes neutral getup down b, just stand outside of range. if they whiff the down b, you can get a massive punish with either a smash attack or a combo starter. if you notice that they dont do it when you're standing in a position to punish it, you can try to bait it out. spend a little bit of time in range, and then when you think they're gonna go for it, dash away (or jump) and punish.
Thank you.
Thanks for watching and thanks for a great question!
The solution I had in mind is similar to what Liam listed, where you plant Lloid and stand back to react. If you have the time to set a Lloid up, it's incredibly valuable in helping you cover Kazuya's available options. Placing it at ledge as they mentioned would work very well.
At the end of the day, understanding where Gates of Hell or the Down B command grab reach are very important. The corner is already a pretty crummy spot for Kazuya to be dealing with Isabelle's kit, so it'll be more in your interest to hold stage positioning and find a way you can repeatedly keep them out; a trap on the ground will only make crossing that distance harder. Play around with where you can position Lloid and make use of more of your ranged spacing tools as they'll be much harder for Kazuya to break the zone against. Patience will help a lot, and practice makes perfect. Hopefully that helps!
thank you. All of these do help. Knowing that the ledge trap phase continues even when they get off ledge to corner helps a lot.