I disagree with you on one thing. While your right that Jess's story doesn't quite work out, there's something to be said for that fact that choices that allow a character to live are also choices that lead to personal growth; take Matt, for example. The easiest way to save Matt in the game is (Spoilers) don't help Emily. Matt's 'problem' is that he lets himself get pushed around. For him to survive, he has to stand up for himself by putting his safety before Emily's. Emily has a similar arc. Her 'problem' is that she makes everyone do things for her, instead of taking action herself. She then either dies alone in the mines, or learns to take care of herself. Matt, the person she relies on during the game, either abandons her or dies, and she has to manage on her own. Sam obviously is that 'last girl' archetype, and there's Mike, who exists as the brave action hero. Chris and Ashley fulfill the lovers (and if Chris ruins their romance, he dies). The game fulfills that desire for character growth by being written in a way where choices are frequently "Follow your character arc or die." Going back to Matt is where this is clearest. A LOT of people have trouble saving Matt the first time, despite him actually being fairly easy to save, and it depends entirely on how they're playing. Someone who is playing a video game tends to get Matt killed, because they want to save Emily and get the "everyone lives" ending. Someone who is watching a horror movie tends to save Matt, because they follow his character arc of abandoning Emily.
+InnerWorkingsofaGeek Something that wasn't addressed in the video or by others in the comments is that Emily's personality can do a near 180 by the end of the game. By having Matt stand up for himself and not be pushed over by others (specifically Emily), he helps Emily realise her own toxic attitude towards others and, in turn, helps her go on the path to change herself to be a better person. Personally, this is one of the things I most enjoyed about the game because it is one of the biggest subversions of classic horror tropes seen throughout the entire story. The bitchy know-it-all can realise their own problems and repent, for lack of a better term, for what they did and said to others. This is actually why Emily is my favourite character in the entire game - there is this great potential for her character to go on her own isolated and far smaller redemption arc that exists within the confines of the overall story. As we see in the mines, Emily, when by herself and not having to present an outer-image to others is an extremely resourceful and capable woman, yet as soon as she returns to the rest of the group she reverts to that previous attitude (though nowhere near to the same degree) - granted, this is because she experienced the extremely harrowing event of meeting Handigo, and possibly a second one immediately after at the hands of Mike, if you let her get bitten. Sorry for rambling, got any of your own opinions to share at all? I like a good discussion.
Both of these comments really want to make me try Until Dawn again to explore these particular arcs. I do think it might be done too subtly for a game that pressures you to make these immediate decisions- you should be able to get a satisfying ending without needing to read a post-game review or studying literature or even quitting the game to think heavily on an upcoming decision. And Matt's death is hinged on a single decision point of disagreeing with Emily, right? A single conversation moment that's not really highlighted, too. Matt probably dies for most players without them ever realising why. I'd be interested in more games exploring 'complete this character arc' objectives. Right now it seems... clunky.
Emily can save Matt indirectly through a choice to give him an item. Then he can help her and survive. This leads to ending where they have a good relationship.
Interesting point. On my first playthrough, Matt died. I hated Emily's attitude all the way until the second playthrough where I managed to save everyone and somehow I liked her more than the start of the game. Maybe it's because of that arc of her.
Lol, i saved Matt first try because i thought that if he helped her, the tower would fall and both would die, and if he jumped to a safe place, at least he would survive. To my surprise, both survived :D
I was thinking the same thing. He avoided examples that he thought of because they would spoil it, but unless we caught on or remembered what he was referencing we are left out.
@b I agree, but there should be videos tagged as spoiler free. Also, people shouldn't spoil things in social feeds like facebook. Someone spoiled The Force Awakens for me because I had no idea I was reading about Star Wars. ... We aren't friends anymore.
@@TheGumdropButton lol you are a fool! Movies like the 6th sense or unbreakable and shutter island can be spoiled! Because they have a twist! Apologise to ur friend for being an ass.
In reply to the comment about videos on more positive and general topics: they'll be back! I have just been playing a lot of new games recently (tis the season for it!) and wanted to talk about them while they're hot. Back to more general topics, older games, and positive lessons from older stuff real soon. Thanks for your feedback :D
I actually had a conversation about exactly this, and what we realized is that you can take the perma-death plus big roster mechanic from the old Rainbow Six game, and use it to create the Ten Little Indians effect in a slasher. You'll start with a group of teenagers in a secluded location, each with a single unique talent that is *useful* but not *mandatory* to complete the game. You'll be given a goal and allowed to select a character, then turned loose in the environment with an AI nightmare enemy (think Alien Isolation) hunting you. The gameplay is a boiler-plate stealth adventure where you create distractions, duck behind things, and crawl in vents. If you die, that's it - the character is dead, and you'll select another one back at the level's requisite safe zone. Once you run out of characters, the movie is over - start again. This creates a very real risk of losing, so it also creates real terror in the player. It also organically writes a horror movie based on practical gameplay.
That's a pretty good blueprint in one sense, but I think you'd have a tricky design issue on your hands about making time pass for the rest of the cast while one character is being played. You'll immediately lose immersion if the characters go off until they die, then are replaced by the other nine you're just keeping "on the shelf" until it's their turn. Still, I think you're onto something, and a synthesis of what you're describing with an acknowledgement of time passage would almost certainly be a good game.
I think that problem could potentially be solved by going back to the Rainbow Six comparison. If you haven't played the original, before you start a mission, you have a planning phase where you tell your various teams where to go and what actions to take when they reach certain locations. I think if they were to implement a system similar to this, but maybe have the planning phase be more spur-of-the-moment in order to keep the horror factor intact, they could make it work.
A game did this a number of years back on a VERY basic user interface level. Obscure. (Not the sequel tho) You had a group of teenagers whose friend goes missing to some mysterious biological abomination, and each student you play as has an ability that changes the course of how you do things in real time. (i.e. one is a great lockpicker, another has a special melee move that is effective, another provides supplementary hints as to what needs to be done next to advance the plot) At any point in time, a character can be killed, lost to the darkness, and forever kept from the freedom of the end of the level. Not nearly the level of intricacy that you are referring to, but it touches upon the concept. It is a decent game, but almost a Resident Evil clone, in nature. The skills each student has bears no significance to the overall strength of each character, except, when you get a pump action shotgun, with a heavy duty flashlight, you're golden. I would like to see something along the idea of OP's idea, but I figured I would throw Obscure out there as a game that has slightly touched upon the idea.
@@HalfTangible it was the one on the NES i believe and its striking how similar it is too the idea above. It goes to show even 40 years ago game devs were on the cusp of really fun systems but either barely fell short, or were stifled by technical limitations
+Watch crap I have yet to find a critic of that movie that won't admit it's at the very least memorable, and I genuinely have to thank the soundtrack for that. Still gives me a very real impression that the guy behind the Fez track was way, way too limited when he was working on that game.
***** Yeah it IS great, maybe a BIT too close to Carpenter`s Thing music... I mean to the level of some beats being identical, but still a great soundtrack.
The game you propose, with you as the director, would make for a good Cabin in The Woods game. Maybe even having you controlling different types of horror to play into their specific tropes. Could even, like the film, act as a sort of dissection of what makes horror work.
+Mellow Gaming That'd fit perfectly in the universe created by the movie too, putting you as one of the people running the project, perhaps. I'm sure that's what you were already thinking anyway...
Kitsunin Yeah, pretty much. Not many games let you actually play with narrative structure. Cabin In The Woods would fit that well. There was meant to be a Cabin In The Woods game but it was just going to be a Left 4 Dead map pack. Some of the creatures from Left 4 Dead are in the film.
+Mellow Gaming Came here just to post this. A Cabin in the Woods game would be so fantastic. Alternatively, even though you could find a million people who say they want to play a Battle Royale (JP) game, few of them would suggest the idea that you play as a director trying to get ratings by very specifically insuring certain characters get certain equipment. Combine with these two ideas the elements given to us in the closest thing we actually do have to a "direct a slasher flick" game, Tecmo's Deception/Trapt, and you've got your hands on something new, unique, and possibly amazing.
+Mellow Gaming That would be amazing. It could have levels inspired by different eras and sub-genres of horror, like a Hammer Film castle, a slasher movie summer camp, a sci-fi horror spaceship and a ghost story haunted mansion.
I generally liked Until Dawn, but found it frustrating that so many of the deaths are brought upon by quick time events rather than poor decision making on the player's part. Having gone through the entire game with everyone alive, only for the main girl to die because I wasn't QUITE still enough, is ridiculous and has nothing to do with what the game wanted to hook you with. After making good decisions like when to take a risk with Mike chasing after Jess, or play it safe with Matt jumping before attempting to save Emily, it felt like some grade A bull pucky to have it all come down to one haphazard motion control.
I thought the balanced mixture of needing to prove your intelligence (choices) as well as reflexes/agility (quicktime/keeping still) was highly successful and immersed myself fully into the game.
@@BreathingStereotype Yeah but one message about it several hours earlier is not enough to counteract your entire life being trained by games to hit qte buttons as soon as they appear on screen. Qte are not a mechanic that you are supposed to stop and think about, giving you time to remember the option of inaction. It's basically a game of Simon Says.
Yeah that's exactly what crossed my mind too. It'd be extremely difficult to count for all the permutations and have a (seemingly) branching narrative for each one but it'd make for an amazing game.
Any script editors would put a big red circle around a character appearing to die only to come back and immediately die later? Tell that to the crew of The Walking Dead.
Big fan of your uploads, I loved Until Dawn , specially for not trying too hard to be a game. There is not a real/solid challenge for the player except the "save as many as you can". There is also no defeat condition in it, even if them all die you still get one of the possible endings. I think that's awesome. The game never goes back so you cant repeat any steps, Thats makes you commit to you decisions and deal with the outcomes. Few games made me feel so immerse and engaged on my actions. I had amazing moments playing this with my wife, with moments like, discussing if we should sacrifice the hand of a character for the machete and what kinda of "karma" that will reflect. The game knows how horror genre works, and you can save all of them if you go by the book, the only problem you need is to figure out which character belongs to which horror flick genre. They are not all slashers, (Mike is evil dead for example) As a horror fan and game developer, this game was remarkable for me.
The idea of having to be 'the director', and making things run 'in character' was mildly implemented in a game that might be worth checking out - Chroma Squad. Basically a super sentai ("Power Rangers") simulator, the general aim, at least initially, is to make episodes for your series, with the gameplay and stages framed as you filming those episodes, particularly the fight scenes. For maximum audience ratings (and money from sponsors and advertisers to help improve your productions), you have to achieve typically optional objectives based on making things work in character, or true to the tropes of the genre. Sure, you COULD beat the boss as quickly as possible, but in shows like these you're supposed to finish off the grunts first, so a bonus would be based on taking them out before boss. Or alternatively, because an episode is based around a particular character's story arc, you have to finish the boss off with their special, and thus provide narrative closure. Heck, using the team finishing move early can sometimes cost you audience rating because its a FINISHING move, not a 'whittle down their HP to half' move. Of course, being an indie game means that its resources in this regard are limited ('episodes' are drawn from a limited pool and many are required by the overall plot), and especially on easier difficulties, it is more than possible to achieve maximum ratings without meeting all the director objectives, and otherwise make enough money that it doesn't matter. But its still interesting because of how it tries to get you in that mindset, rather than simply seek what is, gameplay wise, the easiest path to victory.
Adding to this, there's also consistent audience-rating bonuses for making each character take actions related to their role. The Scout should run as many tiles as possible every turn whether it helps or not, the team leader should be participating in team attacks and ally launches, the techie should use as many special moves as possible, the assault should be doing damage and the healer should be healing. It's just too bad that the designers undermined the system by letting you farm it on most missions if you delay attacking the boss.
Supermassive did a brilliant job with Until Dawn, and I've heard they're coming up with a sequel. Something that struck me while playing was that it would be an incredibly unique experience to have a branching path, choose your own adventure game like this where you play AS the psychopath. You choose how to creep people out, maybe turn them against each other, lure stragglers away from the group, which characters to pick off first, and how you do your ridiculous murders. It'd also be super interesting to see how the plot could change based off of whether or not you follow horror tropes. (What happens if you go after the virginal pure character first, etc) Reading this comment back makes me sound like a psychopath, but honestly, this sounds like a unique idea for a game that'd be rife with new ways to look at horror stories and survival horror.
Sounds great, especially if more than just subverting horror tropes, it deconstructs them, but it wouldn't really have the same feel as a horror movie. It would play more like a Hitman - not that there's anything wrong with that, but it would just be a different kind of game.
I think it would be amazing if they had a Cabin in The Woods type scenario where there is a facility underneath the cabin housing all sorts of monsters. That way you could set objectives like which characters should survive and what monsters to unleash on them to significantly increase replay value. All good on paper but would be a nightmare to develop though.
There's actually a game about this. It's called "Lucius" and you play as the creepy child in a creepy child horror movie. I think it's something to the effect of "you're the devil in a child's body!" kind of deal.
I love the idea of a game where you are the director of a film... you could even make it to where the multiple play throughs of the game were thematically the script notes/changes put forward by the studio in trying to make things better, and could make the replay of the film a recapitulation of ideas in a new light (much like the levels in Link's Awakening changing their shape after you get the main dungeon item). Someone needs to make this game...
I honestly like this idea of an interactive movie, where your decisions can effect each character and the story itself. Therefore, each person can have a different experience
This is actually the way we played the game: not trying to survive, trying to find about the plot the most, seeing how much we could push the tropes. We screwed up the sex scene, we tried to make the bitch survive and the goodie-two-shoes get killed, and we lost some people by accident. And that's awesome, we created our own narrative.
I love to see a two player game (using the internet) where one player is in the horror film, and one player is the director/killer. You choose when and if to pop cliche jump scares, if and when to strike and kill off members. A game where either person can "win" by either surviving the night with certain characters alive, or killing everyone or certain characters. Kinda like that Jason game, or that game where you play as a monster and a team of hunters...
I like your choice of background music. It Follows was great, and probably the best horror movie, nay, movie of last year. It was oddly similar to Fez's soundtrack though, but it does help this video come full circle, reviewing a video game and all. Keep up the quality videos.
Many of the reasons Until Dawn works is because it defies game tropes as well as playing into horror tropes. The "don't move" and optional kill sections are great examples of this. The game you proposed is interesting, but it's not even remotely similar to a storytelling game. This game sells you on caring about characters and creating a true sense of choice - all repeatability does is undermine these elements.
Don't think I didn't notice you using the soundtrack from It Follow's in this video. Definitely appreciated it, Disasterpiece did masterful work scoring that film.
Pokéstar Studios from Black/White 2 bizzarely fits the description. Not so much for horror, but because you need to hit a specific outcome with the options given and Critical Hits playing towards that random element.
I really don't understand how this channel doesn't have more views and subscribers. This gave me a lot of valuable insight i never would have thought of, things i never would see with watching the same game over and over again. This is too awesome to only be seen to about 10k people.
9:00 Well this could be a nice topic for itself, is it really about winning? Or more about having a experience, and seeing something new in some way? I have to say I really love the idea of playing the director in such a game, and it could be even a nice story for itself I#ll explain what I mean: The player could be put in the position of a captive person that is trapped by some otherworldly psychopath (maybe some kind of lovecraftian Creature or Cultist could work) and this very psychopath wants to have this particular order of kills and several special conditions have to be met. And if the game makers are really ambitious this "frame story" of our protagonist could be quite a big part of the story aswell. As he struggles with his gruesome fate, or tries to lead the charakters to some kind of artefakt or symbol that would stop the cultist/ElderGod to influence them. But I think you get the Idea by now^^ Great Video, I really liked it^^
Until Dawn is totally about winning. the presence of the Totems(so "statements" for the "win state") makes obvious that the developer consider a positive outcome everybody saved... they antagonize the real victims too... it's actually rather grotesque morally speaking...or just horribly written? forgive me but I would not play your idea. first the "lovecraft" setting is forced ("evil" is a relative term in lovecraft, petty evil is not even present), second the idea of being forced to kill/save NPC is very difficult to pull off in a serious manner. also it comes to mind less working graphic adventures like Lifeline on ps2 and experiment/experience 112 on PC, where interacting with a AI guided NPC was tedious (experience 112) or broken (lifeline) that said, maybe I am just prevented and your idea could be a killer game that I would love.
Real quick I haven’t even finished the video yet but what you said about the start about making choices being fulfillment despite the outcome not being affected is really fair, and thank you for that thought. I’ve been cynical about games giving the illusion of choice for a while, and this gave me some very interesting food for thought. Thank you!
7:01 I actually did that because I thought the game was trying to use reverse physiology because it's such a obvious trope and then she got ripped to shreds within seconds
One mechanic that might resolve the die horribly for the movie or live by the skin of your teeth for the game conflict is the idea of you having to survive when others, whom you are depending on to some extent, do not get to. Watching your support system and characters you're attached to get cut down one-by-one, while trying to thread the needle of your survival, could bring both kinds of tension together, I suspect. A lot of that is in the execution, but it seems like a doable kind of game. And some people can live; and you can do some things to help make that happen. It's a different take on the term 'survival horror', basically, a survive the catastrophe by wits and choices thing, knowing you're going to be powerless to save all, or even most of the others, but having enough impact on survival to make it worth trying. And it can lead to various related territories, like--just how terrible does your character have to become to survive? Or are there things in the game worth dying for, and discovering that makes the survival route feel like a fail? So there is some territory to explore here, as well. Really enjoying your videos! Lots to think about, well put together. Thanks for doing these.
Veto2090 I disagree. Example: You really love drinking one kind of coffee but all your friends are saying that the other one is better. The choice here is because you lack information
This game reminded me a lot of "That Cabin in the Woods", it uses (and exploits) the same tropes and both have a "weak" supernatural finale that feels a little out of place. Being the director would probably take away part of the experience (the empathy with the characters) but would probably work nevertheless due to a more clear path to take; maybe generating less replayability, or a much boring one? Ps: yours is by far the best gaming-related channel on RUclips! Big up from Italy, keep up the very good work you're doing, it is amazingly interesting! :D
The whole, "Who will live, who will die, and in what order," thing immediately made me think of The Cabin in the Woods. I never thought of it as a movie that needed a video game adaptation, but maybe it could actually be pretty awesome.
Great video. Loved this game! Funny thing I actually had Jess survive. Once she woke up in the mine *spoilers* and gears the Wendigo I chose to hide and not move since they can't see you if you stand still. then I had to continue walking and make another choice which led to her surviving the night.
The flare gun bit is actually cleverly foreshadowed by one of those idols which shows you what to do with that flare gun to make more people survive. I've seen the game played twice so far, but I've never really noticed the problem you mention. I think that might be because I approach Until Dawn solely as a _game_, a slightly opaque puzzle to be _solved_ rather than as a slasher movie trying to fit the formula. One of the people I've seen play it got the "Everybody survives" ending (mostly) by himself and found it very satisfying, even though that's not how horror movies are supposed to go. I couldn't really say whether it's a good horror movie because I don't actually like horror movies, but the experience of figuring out the puzzle is interesting enough to keep me engaged.
+Nixitur Personally, I think Until Dawn is the closest to being a perfect movie-game, because it's not trying to be a movie. While it is definitely a homage to classic horror movies, it doesn't try to emulate them. Instead, it takes the basic ingredients of those movies and turns them into its own thing. It uses the inherent advantages of video games - such as interactivity, greater length, and personal investment - to create a more fluid, engaging, and detailed plot than any movie could have. And to top it, it is all wrapped up this great puzzle, which challenges you to use the information you find to make the right decisions and discover the true plot. I was watching a lets-play by a group of guys, and it was a blast to watch them piece together the plot and figure out how to save these characters. They ended up discovering the plot twist hours before it was revealed, simply through using what they found. And through it all they managed to craft a story which, while not like a horror movie, I found to be far more engaging and satisfying than any movie could have. It just goes to show that games are still very young, and their potential is far from tapped.
+Nixitur "The flare gun bit is actually cleverly foreshadowed by one of those idols which shows you what to do with that flare gun to make more people survive." Having a clear explained game-mechanic, that tells you the future, isn't clever foreshadowing.
Subverting horror tropes is now a trope and is expected now, especially in a time where the trailers and previews for the game/movie can't help but nudge you with their shoulder, wink at you, and say, "Just you wait." There are formulaic horror games and movies still, but the ones subverting the tropes aren't subverting what modern horror games/movies do, but old slasher films. How about a movie that starts to play out like Paranormal Activity (or any other found footage movie) but in the end it turns out that the ghost was harmless or something. I can't really enjoy Until Dawn or Cabin In The Woods, partly because they're self-aware and proud of it, but mostly because they also taking advantage of the same tropes they're trying to make fun of.
Since you mentioned horror gameplay intertwined with the horror genre in movies. I would love to see a collaboration video with Every Frame a Painting. Both of your content are very insightful and unique yet a very similar style on delivering your respective mediums. :)
I thought this was going off the rails, but you brought it back well. Props. I think a game where you play as a group of people (like UD) and are trying to escape/kill the slasher would be really interesting. The "what should I do?" (if anything) is the integral part of slasher movies where death is basically inevitable. It could really get in players' heads when something goes wrong and the interaction between multiple people could be really unique. The big challenge is to avoid making death seem stupidly inevitable, thereby making actions feel useless. But I think that could be cool. Kind of like how Westerado let's you take any route to try and find the killer, this could be an amped up version with multiple people and a serial killer.
Whether it's an analysis of Horror genre or Until Dawn, it can still be entertaining and makes one think and savor the thought and wanting to try it more! Awesome one!
Great points! In any game where there is a choice, I always play as the director, choosing what I want the character to choose, not what I would have chosen or what I think would have the best outcome. Makes it a lot more fun to not play as the peacemaker all the time trying to make sure that every character makes it to the credits.
Something kind of cool in recent memories is the Sims 4's brand new Scenario system...basically you would loud up a household and they would be given a certain situation and a couple potential end goals. Then you as the player needs to play with your sims to try and complete the scenario however you want. Something I noticed about the approach was that it allowed me to create Sims that could be tailored to work with certain stories, some in ways I wouldn't consider...for example, a Scenario in which two roomates loath each other but must become friends at the end prompted me to make two Sims that seemed like oppossites, but have a common interest they could bond over.
I played this game four years ago and I really enjoyed it. I remember I played it pretty much as you suggested. There have been moments where I purposefully let characters die, because it fit the narrative I was experiencing. I should revisit this one.
I always thought that these sort of games were built for a "Groundhog Day" format, where a short iteration cycle over the "day"'s events is part of the game's system. Perhaps a game about being a character in a horror film, slowly realizing you are, and trying to escape with everyone alive.
Good stuff, Mark. Had me laughing pretty hard at the misogyny joke. I'm actually watching this series as I work on my own game, so thanks for all the pointers you've given me and all the pointers I'll continue to hear from you down the line!
I think you have the right idea. The way you make these games really work is by having the main theme of the story be something like choices & consequences, forging your own path, how it's like being a director/god etc. - so you can make many choices dramatically altering the outcome but still have it reinforce a single cohesive narrative/experience in the end.
your game idea about being a director is really intriguing, I'm imagining what you said, but with a choice and response kind of system like Stanley Parable where you can influence both the movie inside the game as well as the game's story itself based on your choices,
Great video. I have several mind-projects rather clearly that play around with the concept of either an action-packed thriller or a more slaher-like idea and I noticed a long time ago that the more I thought of them, the more I liked the idea of making them very short condensed semi-randomised experiences that would last up to around 2 or maybe slightly more hours of one sitting total, but have huge amount of replayability. Like, say, create a few blocks of the gameworld with a lot of potentially exciting buildings having proper interiors, populate it with Last Express-like real-time NPCs and create several dozen premade situations that can unfold at several points of this world. And then let lose the player and their pursuers into this world. But not in the open world, as in GTA-like, structure, but in a more "you're forced to make clearer tighter choices" way open world, so characters follow certain paths that interconnect in a way, pacing of which can be more controlled for a good rythm, and which can lead up to some truly interesting and memorable series of situations. Add a nice built-in replay editor, ability to save and edit in a cinematic way the entire playthrough you just had even if you died, and you have an exciting interactive horror.:)
That’s the best idea of it all: you control things. You direct, you can lead to special things out of sick curiosity, you watch them die, and so on. Much like a certain character, in his own little “game”. That’s why I love the Dr. Hill segments. You relate to Josh in more ways than one might think, just not in his motivation.
That's sort of how I feel about games like Telltale's The Walking Dead, Life is Strange, or Mass Effect where the emphasis is more on what choices you make rather than the results of those choices. When I started playing these games, I naturally played them the way I would if I was in those character's shoes, ie making the "nicest" choice possible. However, as I continued to play them, knowing what the story is going to be and what different actions could result in, I began to approach the games from a director or screenwriter perspective, ie thinking about the choice that would fit the narrative and themes of the game rather than just my personal morals. For example, in The Walking Dead, I made it a point to have Lee not directly kill anyone or steal anything that could belong to someone else in previous playthroughs, but I realized that in Episode 2, which placed a massive emphasis on how cruel and just as dangerous the living can be, I started making choices that had Lee still be a nice guy that wants to ensure people stick together, but still be willing to kill or steal in the name of survival. Then are there are choices I made because I felt that was the obvious intention. In Telltale's Batman, you're confronted with a scenario to save either your good friend Harvey Dent or Catwoman, who you've only met recently and may or not be trustworthy. In my personal preference, I would have saved Harvey Dent because I trusted him more, but having knowledge of classic Batman lore, I chose to save Catwoman instead since failing to save Dent results in his disfigured face which, in my opinion, is what makes Two-Face.
What makes Until Dawn a horror is that it takes the suspense of keep a character alive common to every game and applies a slasher aesthetic to turn that tension into a good scare. I think applying your ideas would make the experience less scary and a bit more rigid and limiting. A shorter version of Until Dawn that explicitly tells you what path it wants you to follow? No thanks.
On early slasher films (and this is a digression) a film that still follows the core slasher formula but has very different morality is Alien. It took me a while to realize it was a slasher; but replace Mike Myers with an equally unfeeling but more visually interesting monster with a lot design wise to say about sexual violence. And the character who survives isnt "pure", shes just competent, lucky, and most importantly for us, headstrong. Its interesting.
What about Chroma Squad? That game puts the player as the director, and gives you instructions for how to play the level, which grant pretty important rewards to make the game easier. The director's instructions are really just bonus objectives but they are well designed (mostly) to make the player do things more cinematically.
Having a specific order you need to kill them in has another side effect. Maybe you've built up the perfect situation to kill character A, but character B needs to die first. You may have to give up your plan for Character A if it comes together before Character B gets anywhere near the action. This is another layer of strategy that would make late-game kills especially difficult, b/c you don't want to miss your last chance to kill a character. If the "director" were an actual killer in the game controlling the environment rather than the dialogue, a degree of randomization in the victims' movement patterns could also be interesting. This would stop players from 100% memorizing the game or the sequence getting dull, as they'd need to observe the characters and listen in to their conversations to figure out what their next plan. Just some ideas.
Ooh! That idea of being the director was touched on in a title called Hidden Agenda. Every player has their own outcome that they are gunning for so they try to discreetly guide the descision votes toward certain outcomes!
"And you'll probably end up with multiple survivors, if not all of them making it through the night" - Just played it yesterday for the first time, only 1 survivor xD
This was one of my earliest PS4 buys. Knew nothing about it. Bought it at the word of my friend and loved every single scary moment. Was great to freeze my ass off over Christmas holidays with this little gem.
Aw man, when I heard Disasterpeace I almost immediately said "Oh, I hope he uses the It Follows soundtrack at some point!" Great music choices for a great video.
maybe for a good horror movie you should play as the assassin? Jumpscares would be scarce, after all, YOU would be causing a lot of 'em... but you could make your own horror movie, following your own twisted morals to rid this manor/camp/building/shack in the woods of these sinful pot smokers... and if they beat you... well, it's a horror movie, good guy usually manages to win, right? just choose who you consider the "good guy" and go wild.
Your idea for how to improve this game reminds me of the best quest in Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion, "Whodunit?" In that mission for the Dark Brotherhood, you are locked in a house with 5 victims. Your job is to kill them all, and the client has specified that they don't want the victims to know who the killer is, so you have to be very sneaky and play the role of a victim along with them. But beyond that, there are no restrictions. All five victims have their own backstories and prejudices, and you can use the game's speechcraft system to befriend them and learn more about them. If you're their friend they're less likely to suspect you, and they'll tell you what they think of the others. You can kill them in any order, and as they start dying off one by one the remaining survivors start freaking out and casting suspicions on one another depending on who is still alive and what they know about them. It can play out very differently depending on the order in which you kill them. I would always leave a save before this quest so I could play it over and over again and try to experience all of the different permutations. If you scaled it up a bit more it could very easily be a successful game like you're envisioning.
Until Dawn is a really great party game, where each person plays someone different. It perhaps isn't a very good horror game when you play it like that, but it sort of changes it into much more of an RPG. When I played it I was one of the only survivors, so it felt a lot more personal when my character, Chris, was talking about what happened on the mountain.
I do think the number of choices in a game should be reduced to just key choices that do heavily affect the story, for example Saya No Uta has around 2/3 choices and Bastion has 1, yet I think it has affected me more than the 500 minor choices in Mass Effect. Also unless you're The Witcher make the choice heavy game a self contained story. That being said, unless your game is just pure game play like DMC, Monster Hunter, Mario, Touhou, Street Fighter, etc. which have choice in their gameplay I think games should have an aspect of choice in their stories. It's partially why I'm not impressed with most Gone Home style games. Also Mark, check Virtue's Last Reward, I think it touches on some of the issues here, since you have to lose to win, choices are foreshadowed and you need knowledge from failure to really succeed. Everyone dies until everybody can live. Plus it plays on player psychology in some parts of how you have to make the plot proceed and how games are as a medium.
So they basically did what Joss Whedon and Drew Goddard did in The Cabin in the Woods movie. Nice. I wasn't that interested to play this game before this video, now I'm really curious. thanks again!
Great video and channel ¡ I think that this kind of VideoGames just look like films, you onda have two decisions to make, so even when you create this complex playgame it,s seems to be like in the middle of Halloween II and then change to Scream. In orden to create a horror VideoGame by itself the player should be a able to change the story using differents mechanic like timing, breaking things o moving the characters in specific way. Of course, that is very expensive.
This is my wacky idea - play from the killer's perspective. The personalities of each characters are randomized, and you have do decide who to end. it's a puzzle where you have to place traps to kill who you hate, but some traps can kill the wrong person. You have to get in the minds of your enemies, and take them out. Collect resources to make nore traps. but u getr rewarded for more kills, so sometimes u have to kill people you like.
So it's sort of like this: Preferred from least to most are: Least: Plotline that gets nowhere. Middle: Plolline that gets somewhere. Most: Plotline that either gets somewhere or not depending on choice. It's like visual novels which don't translate into animé, especially harem animés.
Great vid again! I would love to get your thoughts on a game like Everybody's gone to the rapture, or that type of genre as a whole. I absolutely loved that game so I'd love to get the views from an expert such as yourself (that should win me brownie points) haha
I disagree with you on one thing. While your right that Jess's story doesn't quite work out, there's something to be said for that fact that choices that allow a character to live are also choices that lead to personal growth; take Matt, for example.
The easiest way to save Matt in the game is (Spoilers) don't help Emily. Matt's 'problem' is that he lets himself get pushed around. For him to survive, he has to stand up for himself by putting his safety before Emily's.
Emily has a similar arc. Her 'problem' is that she makes everyone do things for her, instead of taking action herself. She then either dies alone in the mines, or learns to take care of herself. Matt, the person she relies on during the game, either abandons her or dies, and she has to manage on her own.
Sam obviously is that 'last girl' archetype, and there's Mike, who exists as the brave action hero. Chris and Ashley fulfill the lovers (and if Chris ruins their romance, he dies).
The game fulfills that desire for character growth by being written in a way where choices are frequently "Follow your character arc or die." Going back to Matt is where this is clearest. A LOT of people have trouble saving Matt the first time, despite him actually being fairly easy to save, and it depends entirely on how they're playing. Someone who is playing a video game tends to get Matt killed, because they want to save Emily and get the "everyone lives" ending. Someone who is watching a horror movie tends to save Matt, because they follow his character arc of abandoning Emily.
+InnerWorkingsofaGeek Something that wasn't addressed in the video or by others in the comments is that Emily's personality can do a near 180 by the end of the game. By having Matt stand up for himself and not be pushed over by others (specifically Emily), he helps Emily realise her own toxic attitude towards others and, in turn, helps her go on the path to change herself to be a better person. Personally, this is one of the things I most enjoyed about the game because it is one of the biggest subversions of classic horror tropes seen throughout the entire story. The bitchy know-it-all can realise their own problems and repent, for lack of a better term, for what they did and said to others.
This is actually why Emily is my favourite character in the entire game - there is this great potential for her character to go on her own isolated and far smaller redemption arc that exists within the confines of the overall story.
As we see in the mines, Emily, when by herself and not having to present an outer-image to others is an extremely resourceful and capable woman, yet as soon as she returns to the rest of the group she reverts to that previous attitude (though nowhere near to the same degree) - granted, this is because she experienced the extremely harrowing event of meeting Handigo, and possibly a second one immediately after at the hands of Mike, if you let her get bitten.
Sorry for rambling, got any of your own opinions to share at all? I like a good discussion.
Both of these comments really want to make me try Until Dawn again to explore these particular arcs. I do think it might be done too subtly for a game that pressures you to make these immediate decisions- you should be able to get a satisfying ending without needing to read a post-game review or studying literature or even quitting the game to think heavily on an upcoming decision. And Matt's death is hinged on a single decision point of disagreeing with Emily, right? A single conversation moment that's not really highlighted, too. Matt probably dies for most players without them ever realising why.
I'd be interested in more games exploring 'complete this character arc' objectives. Right now it seems... clunky.
Emily can save Matt indirectly through a choice to give him an item. Then he can help her and survive. This leads to ending where they have a good relationship.
Interesting point. On my first playthrough, Matt died. I hated Emily's attitude all the way until the second playthrough where I managed to save everyone and somehow I liked her more than the start of the game. Maybe it's because of that arc of her.
Lol, i saved Matt first try because i thought that if he helped her, the tower would fall and both would die, and if he jumped to a safe place, at least he would survive. To my surprise, both survived :D
I love your video's but I feel like trying not spoil the game held back your analysis.
I don't think so. It's about the system, not the story.
I was thinking the same thing. He avoided examples that he thought of because they would spoil it, but unless we caught on or remembered what he was referencing we are left out.
Clement Busschaert videos*
@b I agree, but there should be videos tagged as spoiler free. Also, people shouldn't spoil things in social feeds like facebook. Someone spoiled The Force Awakens for me because I had no idea I was reading about Star Wars. ... We aren't friends anymore.
@@TheGumdropButton lol you are a fool! Movies like the 6th sense or unbreakable and shutter island can be spoiled! Because they have a twist! Apologise to ur friend for being an ass.
In reply to the comment about videos on more positive and general topics: they'll be back! I have just been playing a lot of new games recently (tis the season for it!) and wanted to talk about them while they're hot. Back to more general topics, older games, and positive lessons from older stuff real soon. Thanks for your feedback :D
I actually had a conversation about exactly this, and what we realized is that you can take the perma-death plus big roster mechanic from the old Rainbow Six game, and use it to create the Ten Little Indians effect in a slasher. You'll start with a group of teenagers in a secluded location, each with a single unique talent that is *useful* but not *mandatory* to complete the game. You'll be given a goal and allowed to select a character, then turned loose in the environment with an AI nightmare enemy (think Alien Isolation) hunting you. The gameplay is a boiler-plate stealth adventure where you create distractions, duck behind things, and crawl in vents. If you die, that's it - the character is dead, and you'll select another one back at the level's requisite safe zone. Once you run out of characters, the movie is over - start again. This creates a very real risk of losing, so it also creates real terror in the player. It also organically writes a horror movie based on practical gameplay.
That's a pretty good blueprint in one sense, but I think you'd have a tricky design issue on your hands about making time pass for the rest of the cast while one character is being played. You'll immediately lose immersion if the characters go off until they die, then are replaced by the other nine you're just keeping "on the shelf" until it's their turn.
Still, I think you're onto something, and a synthesis of what you're describing with an acknowledgement of time passage would almost certainly be a good game.
I think that problem could potentially be solved by going back to the Rainbow Six comparison. If you haven't played the original, before you start a mission, you have a planning phase where you tell your various teams where to go and what actions to take when they reach certain locations. I think if they were to implement a system similar to this, but maybe have the planning phase be more spur-of-the-moment in order to keep the horror factor intact, they could make it work.
A game did this a number of years back on a VERY basic user interface level.
Obscure. (Not the sequel tho)
You had a group of teenagers whose friend goes missing to some mysterious biological abomination, and each student you play as has an ability that changes the course of how you do things in real time. (i.e. one is a great lockpicker, another has a special melee move that is effective, another provides supplementary hints as to what needs to be done next to advance the plot) At any point in time, a character can be killed, lost to the darkness, and forever kept from the freedom of the end of the level.
Not nearly the level of intricacy that you are referring to, but it touches upon the concept. It is a decent game, but almost a Resident Evil clone, in nature. The skills each student has bears no significance to the overall strength of each character, except, when you get a pump action shotgun, with a heavy duty flashlight, you're golden.
I would like to see something along the idea of OP's idea, but I figured I would throw Obscure out there as a game that has slightly touched upon the idea.
Isn't this an old Friday the 13th game?
@@HalfTangible it was the one on the NES i believe and its striking how similar it is too the idea above. It goes to show even 40 years ago game devs were on the cusp of really fun systems but either barely fell short, or were stifled by technical limitations
Nice touch by using the It Follows Soundtrack :D
+Watch crap I have yet to find a critic of that movie that won't admit it's at the very least memorable, and I genuinely have to thank the soundtrack for that.
Still gives me a very real impression that the guy behind the Fez track was way, way too limited when he was working on that game.
*****
Yeah it IS great, maybe a BIT too close to Carpenter`s Thing music... I mean to the level of some beats being identical, but still a great soundtrack.
Yeah, but that's what the director wanted. Literally, he told Disasterpeace "make it like this" and so he did.
Disasterpiece is an industry genius.
The Watcher .
The game you propose, with you as the director, would make for a good Cabin in The Woods game. Maybe even having you controlling different types of horror to play into their specific tropes. Could even, like the film, act as a sort of dissection of what makes horror work.
+Mellow Gaming That'd fit perfectly in the universe created by the movie too, putting you as one of the people running the project, perhaps. I'm sure that's what you were already thinking anyway...
Kitsunin Yeah, pretty much. Not many games let you actually play with narrative structure. Cabin In The Woods would fit that well. There was meant to be a Cabin In The Woods game but it was just going to be a Left 4 Dead map pack. Some of the creatures from Left 4 Dead are in the film.
+Mellow Gaming Came here just to post this. A Cabin in the Woods game would be so fantastic. Alternatively, even though you could find a million people who say they want to play a Battle Royale (JP) game, few of them would suggest the idea that you play as a director trying to get ratings by very specifically insuring certain characters get certain equipment. Combine with these two ideas the elements given to us in the closest thing we actually do have to a "direct a slasher flick" game, Tecmo's Deception/Trapt, and you've got your hands on something new, unique, and possibly amazing.
+Mellow Gaming That would be amazing. It could have levels inspired by different eras and sub-genres of horror, like a Hammer Film castle, a slasher movie summer camp, a sci-fi horror spaceship and a ghost story haunted mansion.
After watching this video I came to post exactly this. Sounds like a Cabin in the woods game would fit his game idea perfectly.
I generally liked Until Dawn, but found it frustrating that so many of the deaths are brought upon by quick time events rather than poor decision making on the player's part. Having gone through the entire game with everyone alive, only for the main girl to die because I wasn't QUITE still enough, is ridiculous and has nothing to do with what the game wanted to hook you with. After making good decisions like when to take a risk with Mike chasing after Jess, or play it safe with Matt jumping before attempting to save Emily, it felt like some grade A bull pucky to have it all come down to one haphazard motion control.
It’s called tension and it is a inactive choice, its life or death.
I thought the balanced mixture of needing to prove your intelligence (choices) as well as reflexes/agility (quicktime/keeping still) was highly successful and immersed myself fully into the game.
The worst one was when matt is surrounded by stags. You're basically given a QTE to get yourself killed lol.
@@rooty in the tutorial it literally says sometimes inaction is the best course of action
@@BreathingStereotype Yeah but one message about it several hours earlier is not enough to counteract your entire life being trained by games to hit qte buttons as soon as they appear on screen. Qte are not a mechanic that you are supposed to stop and think about, giving you time to remember the option of inaction. It's basically a game of Simon Says.
Basically "The cabin in the woods" the game
Yeah that's exactly what crossed my mind too. It'd be extremely difficult to count for all the permutations and have a (seemingly) branching narrative for each one but it'd make for an amazing game.
Pretty much came down here to leave this exact comment :P I could go with a procedural slasher management game.
Any script editors would put a big red circle around a character appearing to die only to come back and immediately die later? Tell that to the crew of The Walking Dead.
zombies can't edit scripts.
Big fan of your uploads,
I loved Until Dawn , specially for not trying too hard to be a game. There is not a real/solid challenge for the player except the "save as many as you can". There is also no defeat condition in it, even if them all die you still get one of the possible endings. I think that's awesome.
The game never goes back so you cant repeat any steps, Thats makes you commit to you decisions and deal with the outcomes. Few games made me feel so immerse and engaged on my actions.
I had amazing moments playing this with my wife, with moments like, discussing if we should sacrifice the hand of a character for the machete and what kinda of "karma" that will reflect.
The game knows how horror genre works, and you can save all of them if you go by the book, the only problem you need is to figure out which character belongs to which horror flick genre. They are not all slashers, (Mike is evil dead for example)
As a horror fan and game developer, this game was remarkable for me.
Hey I know this is 4 years old and you might be dead but what did you think of Detroit: Become Human?
The idea of having to be 'the director', and making things run 'in character' was mildly implemented in a game that might be worth checking out - Chroma Squad. Basically a super sentai ("Power Rangers") simulator, the general aim, at least initially, is to make episodes for your series, with the gameplay and stages framed as you filming those episodes, particularly the fight scenes. For maximum audience ratings (and money from sponsors and advertisers to help improve your productions), you have to achieve typically optional objectives based on making things work in character, or true to the tropes of the genre. Sure, you COULD beat the boss as quickly as possible, but in shows like these you're supposed to finish off the grunts first, so a bonus would be based on taking them out before boss. Or alternatively, because an episode is based around a particular character's story arc, you have to finish the boss off with their special, and thus provide narrative closure. Heck, using the team finishing move early can sometimes cost you audience rating because its a FINISHING move, not a 'whittle down their HP to half' move.
Of course, being an indie game means that its resources in this regard are limited ('episodes' are drawn from a limited pool and many are required by the overall plot), and especially on easier difficulties, it is more than possible to achieve maximum ratings without meeting all the director objectives, and otherwise make enough money that it doesn't matter. But its still interesting because of how it tries to get you in that mindset, rather than simply seek what is, gameplay wise, the easiest path to victory.
Adding to this, there's also consistent audience-rating bonuses for making each character take actions related to their role. The Scout should run as many tiles as possible every turn whether it helps or not, the team leader should be participating in team attacks and ally launches, the techie should use as many special moves as possible, the assault should be doing damage and the healer should be healing. It's just too bad that the designers undermined the system by letting you farm it on most missions if you delay attacking the boss.
I think your idea only works if you can make decisions for the monster too, which to be fair would be fun as hell
seeing how slashers often put you in the eyes of the killer, this would make a tremendous amount of sense.
Supermassive did a brilliant job with Until Dawn, and I've heard they're coming up with a sequel. Something that struck me while playing was that it would be an incredibly unique experience to have a branching path, choose your own adventure game like this where you play AS the psychopath. You choose how to creep people out, maybe turn them against each other, lure stragglers away from the group, which characters to pick off first, and how you do your ridiculous murders. It'd also be super interesting to see how the plot could change based off of whether or not you follow horror tropes. (What happens if you go after the virginal pure character first, etc)
Reading this comment back makes me sound like a psychopath, but honestly, this sounds like a unique idea for a game that'd be rife with new ways to look at horror stories and survival horror.
Sounds great, especially if more than just subverting horror tropes, it deconstructs them, but it wouldn't really have the same feel as a horror movie. It would play more like a Hitman - not that there's anything wrong with that, but it would just be a different kind of game.
that's why i like dead by daylight and evolve
I think it would be amazing if they had a Cabin in The Woods type scenario where there is a facility underneath the cabin housing all sorts of monsters. That way you could set objectives like which characters should survive and what monsters to unleash on them to significantly increase replay value. All good on paper but would be a nightmare to develop though.
Pranav Prakash You do know that is an actual a movie right?
There's actually a game about this. It's called "Lucius" and you play as the creepy child in a creepy child horror movie. I think it's something to the effect of "you're the devil in a child's body!" kind of deal.
Mark I love your uploads
And I love your user name
A relationship told in legends.
I love the idea of a game where you are the director of a film... you could even make it to where the multiple play throughs of the game were thematically the script notes/changes put forward by the studio in trying to make things better, and could make the replay of the film a recapitulation of ideas in a new light (much like the levels in Link's Awakening changing their shape after you get the main dungeon item). Someone needs to make this game...
I honestly like this idea of an interactive movie, where your decisions can effect each character and the story itself. Therefore, each person can have a different experience
This is actually the way we played the game: not trying to survive, trying to find about the plot the most, seeing how much we could push the tropes. We screwed up the sex scene, we tried to make the bitch survive and the goodie-two-shoes get killed, and we lost some people by accident. And that's awesome, we created our own narrative.
I love to see a two player game (using the internet) where one player is in the horror film, and one player is the director/killer.
You choose when and if to pop cliche jump scares, if and when to strike and kill off members.
A game where either person can "win" by either surviving the night with certain characters alive, or killing everyone or certain characters.
Kinda like that Jason game, or that game where you play as a monster and a team of hunters...
I like your choice of background music. It Follows was great, and probably the best horror movie, nay, movie of last year. It was oddly similar to Fez's soundtrack though, but it does help this video come full circle, reviewing a video game and all. Keep up the quality videos.
Another wonderful episode. I especially like how as this goes on there is more and more personality put into it, keep up the great work!
I LOVE the idea of a "be the director" game.
I want that game. I need it.
I'll make it if I have to.
Thanks.
CONTROVERSY! lol.
that was perfect
Many of the reasons Until Dawn works is because it defies game tropes as well as playing into horror tropes. The "don't move" and optional kill sections are great examples of this.
The game you proposed is interesting, but it's not even remotely similar to a storytelling game. This game sells you on caring about characters and creating a true sense of choice - all repeatability does is undermine these elements.
Don't think I didn't notice you using the soundtrack from It Follow's in this video. Definitely appreciated it, Disasterpiece did masterful work scoring that film.
Pokéstar Studios from Black/White 2 bizzarely fits the description. Not so much for horror, but because you need to hit a specific outcome with the options given and Critical Hits playing towards that random element.
I really don't understand how this channel doesn't have more views and subscribers. This gave me a lot of valuable insight i never would have thought of, things i never would see with watching the same game over and over again. This is too awesome to only be seen to about 10k people.
Love the 'It Follows' Soundtrack :D
9:00 Well this could be a nice topic for itself, is it really about winning?
Or more about having a experience, and seeing something new in some way?
I have to say I really love the idea of playing the director in such a game, and it could be even a nice story for itself I#ll explain what I mean:
The player could be put in the position of a captive person that is trapped by some otherworldly psychopath (maybe some kind of lovecraftian Creature or Cultist could work) and this very psychopath wants to have this particular order of kills and several special conditions have to be met.
And if the game makers are really ambitious this "frame story" of our protagonist could be quite a big part of the story aswell.
As he struggles with his gruesome fate, or tries to lead the charakters to some kind of artefakt or symbol that would stop the cultist/ElderGod to influence them.
But I think you get the Idea by now^^
Great Video, I really liked it^^
Until Dawn is totally about winning. the presence of the Totems(so "statements" for the "win state") makes obvious that the developer consider a positive outcome everybody saved... they antagonize the real victims too... it's actually rather grotesque morally speaking...or just horribly written?
forgive me but I would not play your idea. first the "lovecraft" setting is forced ("evil" is a relative term in lovecraft, petty evil is not even present), second the idea of being forced to kill/save NPC is very difficult to pull off in a serious manner.
also it comes to mind less working graphic adventures like Lifeline on ps2 and experiment/experience 112 on PC, where interacting with a AI guided NPC was tedious (experience 112) or broken (lifeline)
that said, maybe I am just prevented and your idea could be a killer game that I would love.
Real quick I haven’t even finished the video yet but what you said about the start about making choices being fulfillment despite the outcome not being affected is really fair, and thank you for that thought. I’ve been cynical about games giving the illusion of choice for a while, and this gave me some very interesting food for thought. Thank you!
7:01 I actually did that because I thought the game was trying to use reverse physiology because it's such a obvious trope and then she got ripped to shreds within seconds
One mechanic that might resolve the die horribly for the movie or live by the skin of your teeth for the game conflict is the idea of you having to survive when others, whom you are depending on to some extent, do not get to. Watching your support system and characters you're attached to get cut down one-by-one, while trying to thread the needle of your survival, could bring both kinds of tension together, I suspect. A lot of that is in the execution, but it seems like a doable kind of game. And some people can live; and you can do some things to help make that happen.
It's a different take on the term 'survival horror', basically, a survive the catastrophe by wits and choices thing, knowing you're going
to be powerless to save all, or even most of the others, but having enough impact on survival to make it worth trying.
And it can lead to various related territories, like--just how terrible does your character have to become to survive? Or are there things in the game worth dying for, and discovering that makes the survival route feel like a fail? So there is some territory to explore here, as well.
Really enjoying your videos! Lots to think about, well put together. Thanks for doing these.
Nah, if you're told who needs to live there are no choices, just calculations
+JaytleBee von Miraus which makes it more of a "real" game? maybe? just throwing the idea out there
+JaytleBee von Miraus Technically life has no choices, just calculations
Veto2090
I disagree. Example: You really love drinking one kind of coffee but all your friends are saying that the other one is better. The choice here is because you lack information
*****
touché
what Fox said is what Mark was trying to get at
wonderful episode as usual!! I loved the insertion of film and TV clips, it's great to see you trying new things!
I love how you use It Follow’s ost and it’s amazing.
This game reminded me a lot of "That Cabin in the Woods", it uses (and exploits) the same tropes and both have a "weak" supernatural finale that feels a little out of place. Being the director would probably take away part of the experience (the empathy with the characters) but would probably work nevertheless due to a more clear path to take; maybe generating less replayability, or a much boring one?
Ps: yours is by far the best gaming-related channel on RUclips! Big up from Italy, keep up the very good work you're doing, it is amazingly interesting! :D
The whole, "Who will live, who will die, and in what order," thing immediately made me think of The Cabin in the Woods. I never thought of it as a movie that needed a video game adaptation, but maybe it could actually be pretty awesome.
Great video. Loved this game! Funny thing I actually had Jess survive. Once she woke up in the mine *spoilers*
and gears the Wendigo I chose to hide and not move since they can't see you if you stand still. then I had to continue walking and make another choice which led to her surviving the night.
The flare gun bit is actually cleverly foreshadowed by one of those idols which shows you what to do with that flare gun to make more people survive.
I've seen the game played twice so far, but I've never really noticed the problem you mention. I think that might be because I approach Until Dawn solely as a _game_, a slightly opaque puzzle to be _solved_ rather than as a slasher movie trying to fit the formula. One of the people I've seen play it got the "Everybody survives" ending (mostly) by himself and found it very satisfying, even though that's not how horror movies are supposed to go.
I couldn't really say whether it's a good horror movie because I don't actually like horror movies, but the experience of figuring out the puzzle is interesting enough to keep me engaged.
+Nixitur
Personally, I think Until Dawn is the closest to being a perfect movie-game, because it's not trying to be a movie.
While it is definitely a homage to classic horror movies, it doesn't try to emulate them. Instead, it takes the basic ingredients of those movies and turns them into its own thing. It uses the inherent advantages of video games - such as interactivity, greater length, and personal investment - to create a more fluid, engaging, and detailed plot than any movie could have. And to top it, it is all wrapped up this great puzzle, which challenges you to use the information you find to make the right decisions and discover the true plot.
I was watching a lets-play by a group of guys, and it was a blast to watch them piece together the plot and figure out how to save these characters. They ended up discovering the plot twist hours before it was revealed, simply through using what they found. And through it all they managed to craft a story which, while not like a horror movie, I found to be far more engaging and satisfying than any movie could have.
It just goes to show that games are still very young, and their potential is far from tapped.
+Nixitur "The flare gun bit is actually cleverly foreshadowed by one of those idols which shows you what to do with that flare gun to make more people survive."
Having a clear explained game-mechanic, that tells you the future, isn't clever foreshadowing.
Agh! This reminds me so much of the Zero Escape series. Mark, you NEED to play them!
The It Follows track in the beginning was such a pleasant surprise
Subverting horror tropes is now a trope and is expected now, especially in a time where the trailers and previews for the game/movie can't help but nudge you with their shoulder, wink at you, and say, "Just you wait." There are formulaic horror games and movies still, but the ones subverting the tropes aren't subverting what modern horror games/movies do, but old slasher films. How about a movie that starts to play out like Paranormal Activity (or any other found footage movie) but in the end it turns out that the ghost was harmless or something. I can't really enjoy Until Dawn or Cabin In The Woods, partly because they're self-aware and proud of it, but mostly because they also taking advantage of the same tropes they're trying to make fun of.
Check the movie tuck y dale vs evil
Not Isaac Blair witch was not so
I don’t think UD made fun of Horror tropes.
1:58 "Almost anything is improved with the addition of cooperative play"
This must've been their inspiration for the Dark Pictures Anthology
Since you mentioned horror gameplay intertwined with the horror genre in movies. I would love to see a collaboration video with Every Frame a Painting. Both of your content are very insightful and unique yet a very similar style on delivering your respective mediums. :)
I thought this was going off the rails, but you brought it back well. Props. I think a game where you play as a group of people (like UD) and are trying to escape/kill the slasher would be really interesting. The "what should I do?" (if anything) is the integral part of slasher movies where death is basically inevitable. It could really get in players' heads when something goes wrong and the interaction between multiple people could be really unique. The big challenge is to avoid making death seem stupidly inevitable, thereby making actions feel useless. But I think that could be cool. Kind of like how Westerado let's you take any route to try and find the killer, this could be an amped up version with multiple people and a serial killer.
First time I saw that flashback mechanic was in The Witcher. Used to GREAT effect there and well worth playing if you haven't.
Kinda unrelated to the topic, but you pick such great background music for these, Disasterpeace was a perfect choice
Whether it's an analysis of Horror genre or Until Dawn, it can still be entertaining and makes one think and savor the thought and wanting to try it more! Awesome one!
Great points! In any game where there is a choice, I always play as the director, choosing what I want the character to choose, not what I would have chosen or what I think would have the best outcome. Makes it a lot more fun to not play as the peacemaker all the time trying to make sure that every character makes it to the credits.
Something kind of cool in recent memories is the Sims 4's brand new Scenario system...basically you would loud up a household and they would be given a certain situation and a couple potential end goals. Then you as the player needs to play with your sims to try and complete the scenario however you want. Something I noticed about the approach was that it allowed me to create Sims that could be tailored to work with certain stories, some in ways I wouldn't consider...for example, a Scenario in which two roomates loath each other but must become friends at the end prompted me to make two Sims that seemed like oppossites, but have a common interest they could bond over.
I played this game four years ago and I really enjoyed it. I remember I played it pretty much as you suggested. There have been moments where I purposefully let characters die, because it fit the narrative I was experiencing. I should revisit this one.
I always thought that these sort of games were built for a "Groundhog Day" format, where a short iteration cycle over the "day"'s events is part of the game's system.
Perhaps a game about being a character in a horror film, slowly realizing you are, and trying to escape with everyone alive.
Good stuff, Mark. Had me laughing pretty hard at the misogyny joke. I'm actually watching this series as I work on my own game, so thanks for all the pointers you've given me and all the pointers I'll continue to hear from you down the line!
I think you have the right idea. The way you make these games really work is by having the main theme of the story be something like choices & consequences, forging your own path, how it's like being a director/god etc. - so you can make many choices dramatically altering the outcome but still have it reinforce a single cohesive narrative/experience in the end.
your game idea about being a director is really intriguing, I'm imagining what you said, but with a choice and response kind of system like Stanley Parable where you can influence both the movie inside the game as well as the game's story itself based on your choices,
Love the use of the It Follows soundtrack. One of my favorites
This is a great video but I just kept thinking of how well you synced the It Follows soundtrack to the game footage you were showing, lol
Great video. I have several mind-projects rather clearly that play around with the concept of either an action-packed thriller or a more slaher-like idea and I noticed a long time ago that the more I thought of them, the more I liked the idea of making them very short condensed semi-randomised experiences that would last up to around 2 or maybe slightly more hours of one sitting total, but have huge amount of replayability. Like, say, create a few blocks of the gameworld with a lot of potentially exciting buildings having proper interiors, populate it with Last Express-like real-time NPCs and create several dozen premade situations that can unfold at several points of this world. And then let lose the player and their pursuers into this world. But not in the open world, as in GTA-like, structure, but in a more "you're forced to make clearer tighter choices" way open world, so characters follow certain paths that interconnect in a way, pacing of which can be more controlled for a good rythm, and which can lead up to some truly interesting and memorable series of situations. Add a nice built-in replay editor, ability to save and edit in a cinematic way the entire playthrough you just had even if you died, and you have an exciting interactive horror.:)
Try to kill the characters in alphabetical order.
Keep up the great work, Mark. I love your videos!
That’s the best idea of it all: you control things. You direct, you can lead to special things out of sick curiosity, you watch them die, and so on. Much like a certain character, in his own little “game”. That’s why I love the Dr. Hill segments. You relate to Josh in more ways than one might think, just not in his motivation.
That's sort of how I feel about games like Telltale's The Walking Dead, Life is Strange, or Mass Effect where the emphasis is more on what choices you make rather than the results of those choices. When I started playing these games, I naturally played them the way I would if I was in those character's shoes, ie making the "nicest" choice possible. However, as I continued to play them, knowing what the story is going to be and what different actions could result in, I began to approach the games from a director or screenwriter perspective, ie thinking about the choice that would fit the narrative and themes of the game rather than just my personal morals.
For example, in The Walking Dead, I made it a point to have Lee not directly kill anyone or steal anything that could belong to someone else in previous playthroughs, but I realized that in Episode 2, which placed a massive emphasis on how cruel and just as dangerous the living can be, I started making choices that had Lee still be a nice guy that wants to ensure people stick together, but still be willing to kill or steal in the name of survival.
Then are there are choices I made because I felt that was the obvious intention. In Telltale's Batman, you're confronted with a scenario to save either your good friend Harvey Dent or Catwoman, who you've only met recently and may or not be trustworthy. In my personal preference, I would have saved Harvey Dent because I trusted him more, but having knowledge of classic Batman lore, I chose to save Catwoman instead since failing to save Dent results in his disfigured face which, in my opinion, is what makes Two-Face.
What makes Until Dawn a horror is that it takes the suspense of keep a character alive common to every game and applies a slasher aesthetic to turn that tension into a good scare. I think applying your ideas would make the experience less scary and a bit more rigid and limiting. A shorter version of Until Dawn that explicitly tells you what path it wants you to follow? No thanks.
+thejobloshow I think he meant it as a new game concept, not that it should replace Until Dawn.
On early slasher films (and this is a digression) a film that still follows the core slasher formula but has very different morality is Alien. It took me a while to realize it was a slasher; but replace Mike Myers with an equally unfeeling but more visually interesting monster with a lot design wise to say about sexual violence. And the character who survives isnt "pure", shes just competent, lucky, and most importantly for us, headstrong. Its interesting.
When I thought you were going to talk just about horror movies, you make a twist. Well played (hah!) video maker.
1:33
"I believe that in our last session...
Foor Feee...
You were not completely honest with me...
NAAAAAAAAARP"
Underrated comment
I love the sneaky use of Disasterpeace on this one 👍
What about Chroma Squad? That game puts the player as the director, and gives you instructions for how to play the level, which grant pretty important rewards to make the game easier. The director's instructions are really just bonus objectives but they are well designed (mostly) to make the player do things more cinematically.
Having a specific order you need to kill them in has another side effect. Maybe you've built up the perfect situation to kill character A, but character B needs to die first. You may have to give up your plan for Character A if it comes together before Character B gets anywhere near the action. This is another layer of strategy that would make late-game kills especially difficult, b/c you don't want to miss your last chance to kill a character.
If the "director" were an actual killer in the game controlling the environment rather than the dialogue, a degree of randomization in the victims' movement patterns could also be interesting. This would stop players from 100% memorizing the game or the sequence getting dull, as they'd need to observe the characters and listen in to their conversations to figure out what their next plan.
Just some ideas.
I really appreciate the It Follows music :)
Ooh! That idea of being the director was touched on in a title called Hidden Agenda. Every player has their own outcome that they are gunning for so they try to discreetly guide the descision votes toward certain outcomes!
"And you'll probably end up with multiple survivors, if not all of them making it through the night" - Just played it yesterday for the first time, only 1 survivor xD
This was one of my earliest PS4 buys. Knew nothing about it. Bought it at the word of my friend and loved every single scary moment. Was great to freeze my ass off over Christmas holidays with this little gem.
Aw man, when I heard Disasterpeace I almost immediately said "Oh, I hope he uses the It Follows soundtrack at some point!"
Great music choices for a great video.
the saddest part about my story at Until Dawn was that I was really trying to kill Emily, but she ended up being one of the survivors
she’s really easy to kill tho, how did u fail that 😭 you literally have the option to shoot her in the head as mike
@@oui2375 I thought that she was gonna die eventually, like karma for being awful. So I didn't shoot her. My mistake.
@@taynatavares7986 so you weren’t trying at all 😭 i mean you just had to fail a qte or shoot her she’s the easiest character to kill
maybe for a good horror movie you should play as the assassin? Jumpscares would be scarce, after all, YOU would be causing a lot of 'em... but you could make your own horror movie, following your own twisted morals to rid this manor/camp/building/shack in the woods of these sinful pot smokers... and if they beat you... well, it's a horror movie, good guy usually manages to win, right? just choose who you consider the "good guy" and go wild.
Love this channel!
I love the soundtrack for it follows, forgot how good it was until it turned up in this video.
Found your channel today. Good stuff man. You remind me of Marshall Dyer.
Loved Until Dawn and there VR roller coster Rush of Blood, Supermassive is a pretty damn good developer but progress can always be made.
Your idea for how to improve this game reminds me of the best quest in Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion, "Whodunit?" In that mission for the Dark Brotherhood, you are locked in a house with 5 victims. Your job is to kill them all, and the client has specified that they don't want the victims to know who the killer is, so you have to be very sneaky and play the role of a victim along with them. But beyond that, there are no restrictions. All five victims have their own backstories and prejudices, and you can use the game's speechcraft system to befriend them and learn more about them. If you're their friend they're less likely to suspect you, and they'll tell you what they think of the others. You can kill them in any order, and as they start dying off one by one the remaining survivors start freaking out and casting suspicions on one another depending on who is still alive and what they know about them. It can play out very differently depending on the order in which you kill them.
I would always leave a save before this quest so I could play it over and over again and try to experience all of the different permutations. If you scaled it up a bit more it could very easily be a successful game like you're envisioning.
Love your idea of being the director!
Until Dawn is a really great party game, where each person plays someone different. It perhaps isn't a very good horror game when you play it like that, but it sort of changes it into much more of an RPG. When I played it I was one of the only survivors, so it felt a lot more personal when my character, Chris, was talking about what happened on the mountain.
I do think the number of choices in a game should be reduced to just key choices that do heavily affect the story, for example Saya No Uta has around 2/3 choices and Bastion has 1, yet I think it has affected me more than the 500 minor choices in Mass Effect. Also unless you're The Witcher make the choice heavy game a self contained story.
That being said, unless your game is just pure game play like DMC, Monster Hunter, Mario, Touhou, Street Fighter, etc. which have choice in their gameplay I think games should have an aspect of choice in their stories. It's partially why I'm not impressed with most Gone Home style games.
Also Mark, check Virtue's Last Reward, I think it touches on some of the issues here, since you have to lose to win, choices are foreshadowed and you need knowledge from failure to really succeed. Everyone dies until everybody can live. Plus it plays on player psychology in some parts of how you have to make the plot proceed and how games are as a medium.
I think Suppermassive Games saw this vid when they conceived their new concept release (Man of Medan only as of now)
Bandersnatch exists now. Can you please do a video on it? Since it basically funtions like a game.
Damn you Mark Brown; now I want to watch It Follows...
So they basically did what Joss Whedon and Drew Goddard did in The Cabin in the Woods movie. Nice. I wasn't that interested to play this game before this video, now I'm really curious. thanks again!
'only your choices determine who will survive' except that's not true because sometimes it doesn't matter what you choose.
I love your idea of a horror game. Sounds like a horror Stanley parable type of deal.
I’d make it like a reverse alien so you play as the killer and you get points for the most fear and pain and stuff.
Proud to be nearly a part of it x))
The It Follows OST is so fucking good that it distracted me in this video
Looking back on this now, in context of Man of Medan and its failings to learn these lessons is... interesting and a little sad.
It Follows soundtrack. Very nice. And very fitting.
"please like, subscribe, put your money in my patreon"
i fucking died
Great video and channel ¡
I think that this kind of VideoGames just look like films, you onda have two decisions to make, so even when you create this complex playgame it,s seems to be like in the middle of Halloween II and then change to Scream.
In orden to create a horror VideoGame by itself the player should be a able to change the story using differents mechanic like timing, breaking things o moving the characters in specific way.
Of course, that is very expensive.
This is my wacky idea - play from the killer's perspective. The personalities of each characters are randomized, and you have do decide who to end. it's a puzzle where you have to place traps to kill who you hate, but some traps can kill the wrong person. You have to get in the minds of your enemies, and take them out. Collect resources to make nore traps. but u getr rewarded for more kills, so sometimes u have to kill people you like.
Your idea about mixing Until Dawn and The Stanley Parable is really a god idea, I'd love to see that !
So it's sort of like this: Preferred from least to most are:
Least: Plotline that gets nowhere.
Middle: Plolline that gets somewhere.
Most: Plotline that either gets somewhere or not depending on choice.
It's like visual novels which don't translate into animé, especially harem animés.
Great vid again! I would love to get your thoughts on a game like Everybody's gone to the rapture, or that type of genre as a whole. I absolutely loved that game so I'd love to get the views from an expert such as yourself (that should win me brownie points) haha
I like 'em! You probably wanted a little more insight than that though :P I'll consider it for a future video topic. Thanks for watching!