Awesome and inspiring, thanks for the video. Would really appreciate if you could share details of the parts and components you have used and where to order. Thanks
Got most of the materials from SoundImports and Audiophonics. In the US you might want to use parts-express. I probably forgot a few things, but these should be the most important: - HiVi RT1.3WE Isodynamic Planar Tweeter - Neutrik NL8MDXX-V-BAG speakON 8p - Neutrik NL8FC - MOGAMI W2919 Speaker cable OFC Copper - PINTA AMORTSONBi10A PHD Self-adhesive bitumen backing - PINTA RESOBSON FU1220 Self-Adhesive Fabric Felt Damping - SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V - WONDOM AA-JA11117 Functional Cable Package for JAB3+ / JAB4 / JAB5 Boards - WONDOM ICP5 Programmer - WONDOM JAB5 AA-JA33286 Amplifier Module - Shrinkwrap - Wire for connecting to the power grid Hope that helps!
I've watched a lot of self-building and self upgrading existing speakers videos but most of them were just for show and either glossed over certain parts of the connective process or omitted it intentionally. From your video I've got what I've been missing. You did great with these babies, giving them new lease on life. It may be an expensive process but you're not doing it everyday and you'll end up with some truly unique sounding speakers.
As for upgrading the speakers, and adding anti-resonant foam on the inside of the cabinets Dynomat have a number of products you can use even if they are not specifically made for speakers. Local company so always like to give them a plug. They make really good product for your speakers, car and home. People spend 1000's on stereo eqpt. but never add acoustic treatment in their house.
Dynomat can indeed be an alternative for the bitumen. And yes, room treatment is very important. I put up a bunch of panels now for testing, but I still need to do it properly for this room. There might be a video on that later.
Such a cool project! Even recorded through the camera mic, the speakers already sound impressive. Also striking that they brought your attention to a detail you had never picked up before in a song you know well, that must mean you've done a good job!
Aahh, since you mentioned Bose, around 2001 I bought Bose 100, a plastic box with single driver. 2019 I put the driver into a new mdf box, with around 6.5l volume, yes the sound was way beyond what I thought
I really wish I had all of the necessary equipment needed in order to do "digital" crossovers through a computer or whatever, because the versatility of that type of setup is impressive! I'm relatively knowledgeable about passive crossover design, but what all you were able to do with your digital crossover with these speakers was awesome! Even more impressive considering you said you never worked on speakers before! Wow!
A cheap windows computer (and an ICP5 programmer board in my case) should do the trick! If you want to do measurements as well you will indeed also need a measurement microphone and an audio interface. Quite the investment indeed. I was lucky to have most of this stuff lying around already. That being said, I find passive crossovers quite daunting, so I'm always impressed with people building those.
@@SirFreak Yeah, I guess everyone has their strengths in some way or another. I find passive crossover design to be fun and (relatively) easy and simple because you're dealing with hard physical components that always do a very specific certain thing that you can count on. Of course it's somewhat variable, depending on interaction with other components in the circuit, but the basic function of each component in a passive crossover is always gonna be pretty much the same everytime, as in what it does to the signal... Whereas with computers and anything related to them, literally every single button, including every single virtual button or tab or thing that you can click on on the screen does MANY multiple different things based on what you're looking at, what "screen" you're on, or what program is running, etc. Computers are SO "versatile", as in they can do SO MANY different things, that just that one specific fact is exactly WHY I have an extremely difficult time understanding exactly HOW to make them do any one specific thing that I want them to at any given moment... I NEVER know what button (or rather what extensive exact button SEQUENCE) to push OR what to click on on the screen in order to get what I want out of it, because everything is constantly changing on the screen AND what each key or key combination or sequence does in each and every instance. Unfortunately with me, computers in general are just WAY too complicated for me to grasp what they're doing in any given instance, and because I started (trying to) "learn about them" way back in the "Basic" programming code days, I've never been able to comprehend all of their many intricacies of operation... Way back then I was always thinking that "If computers are gonna be THIS ridiculously difficult and complicated to use, then I cannot see how they could ever even be of any REAL benefit to you!"... Rather just an overly complicated time wasting device... And even though nowadays, in the modern computer era, I actually CAN see how useful they are or can be, (at least as long as and IF you know exactly HOW to use them to get what you want out of them by knowing the exact keystrokes and mouse clicks needed, AND in what exact order is needed for whatever function or result to happen), but unfortunately for me, I just cannot ever grasp even the basic understanding of how to get them to do ANYTHING truly useful for ME! I always have to have someone else show me how to make it do something, whatever that may be, but the sequence of button pushes is SO complex AND is ever changing depending on what exactly you're trying to do on it, that even immediately after someone "shows me how to do something" on a computer, I can't ever remember the keystrokes needed to do the exact same thing myself, so as (potentially) "useful" as a computer could be, (for someone who knows computers anyway), I don't think that I will ever be able to comprehend them enough to do anything on them myself, because even after literal decades of TRYING to understand how to make them work for me, I still can't even do the most basic things on them. My brain gets totally fried and frustrated every time I try to, lol! The most complicated piece of modern equipment that I can (sort of) operate, (at least SOME features), is my cellphone that I'm writing this reply out on. It is the closest thing I have to a "computer", AND it's my ONLY access to the Internet, (I don't have internet at my house in a "hard" or "physical" form such as a cable modem or whatever, because I don't own a computer because of above reasons, so why pay for internet (at home) that I'd never use), but all I can do with my cellphone is watch RUclips videos, make phone calls, texting with close friends and family, and checking my email, not really much else. Anyway, as cool as this program or whatever you have there for the speaker's crossover is, if I was to get any of that stuff myself I wouldn't be able to use it anyway, I would have to always have someone else who knew how to use it, (someone like you for example), actually make it do what I was describing and knew in my head what I wanted, but just didn't know how to make it actually work that way, lol! You're very lucky to have this equipment to do this sort of thing with your computer! AND to have the knowledge of computers in general in order to make it all work to a truly useful degree, because I could see how having and knowing how to use something like this setup would make speaker designing and building SO much faster and (potentially, IF you knew how to use it all), probably even relatively easier too! I actually kind of envy people like you, because I just wish I could comprehend this sort of setup too! (AND of course have the money to buy it all too, which unfortunately I don't either.) Oh well, I can still build passive crossovers the old fashioned way, even though they oftentimes take MANY days, weeks, sometimes even months to perfect, by "trial and error", whereas with software based digital crossovers, they can be designed to work well within just a few minutes or hours because the "computer" does most of the calculations automatically. Wow!)
Very interesting video. I found what I consider a "magic combination" modifying a pair of Kenwood JL-690 speakers. I listened to them in stock form to listen for anything I didn't like. First these are rear ported, something I have never like in any speaker. I glued a plug in the rear ports which also lacked port tubes, they were just a hole in the cabinet. I got real port tubes for them and drilled a hole in the front and installed the new port tubes. I removed the factory crossover/input terminal combination and enlarged the hole to accommodate Infinity Reference 5 crossovers (real crossovers!). I added a L-pad volume control for the midrange driver as they were to "forward" for my liking and that toned them down nicely. Finally I added acoustic batting inside the cabinets. Now this inexpensive speaker system sounds absolutely fantastic. I'm using them on a Kenwood KA-3500, sometimes a KA-7100. They sound so warm and very satisfying to listen to.
WOW ! A lot of work going into the restoration. Pretty well all corners covered. The speakers that I use each contain one 15" woofer, 2 mid-range drivers, and 4 tweeters. Combined with adjustments made via a Soundcraftsmen PE 2217 Preamp/Equalizer, they sound pretty good. I built the speakers myself back in 1978.
Taking a good set of older speakers that don't work and had better days but have a very good cabinet is a great way to build and refurbish speakers without starting from scratch. You usually can pick them up cheap at garage sales so not only will they save you time and effort, but also hopefully some $$ as well. Besides, how many people have a lumber mill in their garage to build from scratch?
@@RennieAsh True, that's where the problems with the edge diffraction come from. I might experiment with some felt around the tweeter to see if that improves the frequency response (instead of compensating for it in the dsp).
@@SirFreak could also do it for the midrange, or just surround the border. Might not look as good unless you can cut neatly and maybe colour/dye the felt black
great work! I have a pair of JBL 4412's I bought in very bad shape. SO bad I literally had to rebuild the boxes as they were smashed in a way all the corners weren't tight. So I had to redo them, wood putty, sand and paint in dark gray. Then I had to recoil the 12 inches and have both tweeters replaced as they needed new voice coils and it's a lot of work to repair. I bought new tweeters (same models) but they were actually also broken. So I managed to find a JBL expert that could fix them. But when I look at the way to sound prrof the box, I wish I spent that time searching for the right materials. Very nice. If you can add more detail on the sound deadening material I might put more effort there. Thanks!
Amazing project, I really love the look of those JBL's! The felt I used is PINTA RESOBSON FU1220, and the Bitumen sheets are PINTA AMORTSONBi10A PHD. I suppose similar materials from other brands might work good as well, if this is hard to get in your area. Hope this helps to further improve your speakers!
For what they are I love the sound of my Pioneer CS-53's. They're still a budget oriented speaker but I think they were a model with a very slight step above what you have in your video in build quality. The cabinet is made of actual plywood and not particle/press-board. The rear baffles can also be unscrewed for easy access into the enclosure. Aside from that they are just a simple bass-reflex 2-way speaker with no actual crossovers. Just a filtering capacitor soldered to the paper cone tweeter. I would like to eventually add some actual crossovers into them as well as make them more rigid. Possibly add in some sound damping. For now they sound good as they are. :)
Those should be from the same period as this CS-515 speaker. One of the brochures that I found (which is shown in the video as well) mentions them both. I'm not sure if they are from the same series, I suppose not, but they definitely have a similar looking finish. I think adding an actual crossover in these would definitely increase the clarity, since the basswoofer won't be trying to replicate high frequency content anymore. Good luck with them!
@@SirFreak I've tried looking for info on them over the years and have found info for the later year versions. But I can't find what year date mine are. The factory plug-in's look to be of an early configuration. They still retain the same 1/4" SRT plug and screw terminals for spade connectors like the later models. But they are both separated on the rear baffle. On the later revised models both connector types are integrated into one terminal cup. Most likely for cost savings. I'll most likely switch them over to a more modern plug type when I get around to making them better in the future. We will have to see. :)
Fantastic job! You achieved fantastic levels of refurbishment/repurposing out of those old speakers; even though they were lacking key things like strong cabinet walls and acoustic dampening, the end result was amazing! The noise you’re hearing might be coming from either the power supply or the DSP. If you can, I’d recommend trying to use linear power supplies with toroidal transformers to see if that eliminates the problem; those are expensive though, so maybe you can find someone that could lend you one just for testing. If it is confirmed that the noise is originated by the power supply, you can add a passive filtering stage between the power supply and the amplifier to get rid of those noisy frequencies, since they should be in a very well-defined range. If the noise, however, is being generated by the amplifier, you may be able to either (a) add an end-stage filter in the DSP, or (b) add an analog filter network (capacitors and inductors) at the output between the amp and the output connector. Finally, I’d recommend placing the electronics inside a metal box (make sure to use spacers and insulators to not short-circuit anything, and allow for proper ventilation to avoid overheating) since that will work as a Faraday Cage to avoid noise interference from external sources. I’d love to know if any of these ideas worked for you, please keep us posted, and again, congratulations on the outcome of this project! Keep up the great work 😊
I really like how with the modern DSP based crossover you can help those vintage drivers reach their full potential. I believe you can help the bass driver reach a little bit lower, but at some point you will be limited by the maximum linear excursion, beyond which the speaker starts to distort, so this is dependent on the volume you are wishing to aim for. For a person who has never opened a speaker before, I'd say you have done an absolutely spectacular job, and I bet the sound you've got out of these boxes is worth much more than what you've paid for the components!
It definitely feels like I've got a speaker that's worth way more than what I paid for in components right now. It of course took time and effort too, but I learned a lot and it was really worth it for me in the end. I'll be experimenting more with getting the most out of the bass driver before I decide to buy another driver. I'll probably be able to still improve some things in the DSP. I hope I can tell more about that in a next video.
You could adjust the tuning frequency by extending the port to some degree. Doesn't have to be a massive change, just enough to get more output towards 30 Hz or so, which I know those old Pioneer speakers can reach. I have an old pair of CS-656 speakers, and they do reach down to around 30 Hz. Also 10" drivers, but they are significantly cheaper made. Speaking of Pioneer speakers. I have a set of DIY speakers with Pioneer car audio components as well, which I made in a hybrid transmission line design (T-line + pressure chamber). These play low bass frequencies down to 27 Hz, from a 6.5" driver. Now, I do need to rebuild them at some point, as the cabinets are made from scrap material from other builds, which resonates really bad in the midrange and high-bass frequencies. Now, the cutoff for the crossover is a little high (4.5 kHz). I would like it more if the cutoff were at 3 kHz instead, as the tweeters are more than capable to handle those frequencies (as the high-midrange is a little lacking). But overall, the speakers sound nice and crisp, and they play smooth bass tones.
I might first experiment a bit to see if I can improve the response of the current driver. If that doesn't give the results I'm after, that will definitely be a video.
Wow, you chose the perfect information to explain this project. I've had to dig through so many videos and forums to understand speakerbuilding/restoring. I really apreciate how you explained the benefits of restoring speakers and completely agree with the recycling midset, however I'd really like to see you build a speaker from concept to reality. I think you would do an amazing job at explaining the process.
Great job, very thoughtful approach to dealing with the crossover and eq issues. I'm going to upgrade some old big box yamaha speakers and will copy your approach on the cabinets, I like what you did to reduce resonance. Glad I found your video.
very nice, did exactly this with a pair Magnat MSP70, changed the crossover and the original metal dome tweeter ( i didn't like ) to a Radian LT 2.2, perfect fit and a very nice sound
As a former electroacoustic engineer I'm delighted by your curiosity and rigor and it's great to see DIY done in that space. In my opinion though, this is not a cost saving measure. The science has come a long way in the last few decades and a lot of techniques that improve the performance of a speaker are not intuitive. Some very cheap off-the-shelf speakers nowadays integrate technology from their bigger brothers, which makes them much more suited as a studio monitor than a modifyed old speaker. For example, the waveguide of the JBL LSR 305 eliminates smoothes out the directivity a lot, which is much more important than the frequency spectrum that you can easily change with software. You can get a pair used for almost nothing and you don't need an amplifier because they are active. The only real downside is it's rather loud white noise when it's on but not playing anything, but that's present in all speakers in that category. And if you are concerned about bass performance - don't be. In order to have "studio grade" bass you need to invest a lot into room acoustics and by that point you will have more budget for speakers available. In either case, fun project and good watch!
Hey there! Correct! What I did was definitely not cheap, and it was a lot of work as well. I also agree that there have been a lot of improvements in speaker-building in the last decades. I also do not have the required knowledge to design a custom waveguide, nor will I acquire that knowledge in the near future. As far as I know, waveguides are very easy to get wrong, and this could cause more issues than advantages. And I'm also still a complete newbie when it comes to this stuff, so I try to stick to the basics. That being said, and with all due respect, I'd gladly put these speakers next to those cheap JBL's and I'm pretty sure the JBLs will sound like cheap junk next to what I made here. Are my speakers perfect right now? Definitely not. But I'd much rather mix on them than on any budget studio monitor. Thanks for watching!
I am also running a tri amped system with a cheap class D board like this. It helps to put a resistor in line with the tweeter. As this is the main producer of high frequency noise. By changing the gain structure you can compensate for the loss in volume but at the same time reduce noise. You just need to drive the amp a bit harder which will improve the SNR.
Great idea! The tweeter amp is 100w, but the tweeter has a nominal power handling of 10w, so I still have some headroom that I can lose. Right now I'm turning the gain of the tweeters down quite a lot. I'll definitely try adding resistors, perhaps even a little L-pad to the midrange as wel (since that is turned down as well). I'm not quite sure what type of resistors would be best for high quality audio? Do you have any advice on that?
Excellent video and a superb job! Just a few points being DIY'er speaker builder myself, good choice to have the lower crossover point to the planar tweeter. This integrates better to the mid, as mentioned, and being that the planar tweeter can be crossed lower. The felt absorbent material only needs to be on three surfaces, rather than all of them, which will yield a deeper bass cut-off point, and still reduce internal standing waves just the same. The edge diffraction can be controlled by applying a thin layer of felt surrounding the tweeter to the edge of the cabinet. The better method would be a more involved modification, by offsetting the tweeter on the front baffle. The diffractions in this case become more diffuse, (less audible) and do not sum at the same frequencies.
Offsetting the tweeter would be quite a drastic modification, so I'm not sure I'll go for that. But I might definitely try to use some felt around the tweeter. Just not sure what felt to use yet. I hope I can find some black/gray felt, so it does not stand out too much. Interesting. What's the reason that three surfaces will result in a deeper bass cut-off point? Thanks for the tips!
Hi SirFreak, This may seem counter-intuitive, an internal standing wave needs two opposing surfaces to set itself up. If we have one bare surface opposed by another bare surface, there will be interference, and standing waves. If we glue absorbent material to one opposing side, it absorbs some energy, delays it, converts some into heat. The longer waveform released by the treated wall, interferes less, or not at all with the untreated one. Asymmetry in speaker design is your friend. The enclosure volume was designed to work with the port as a system. As we stuff, or over-stuff the box, an ideal amount may improve bass quality, but then adding more (too much) can reverse this, and produce less bass. The cabinet and port system may develop a mid-bass peak that wasn't there before. The quality of bass will be affected by how we stuff the box, and how this changes virtual box volume and actual box volume. Adding absorbent material tends to make the virtual box size "larger" however there will be the point of diminishing returns,, that more stuffing reduces actual box volume, and reduced bass output and quality.
Very cool and useful project! I also used sigmaDSP with a simpler 2-way actively crossed PA build for my band. It's awesome how cheap DSP control has become, especially since analog crossover design can get pretty hairy! I used the ADAU-1701 DSP with a 300Wx2 wondom amplifier for the subs and a couple little 50w mono amps for the piezo horn loaded tweeters.
I want to replace the drivers and customise the *enclosure for my sony micro hifi system, the woofer rubber part is so brittle it cracked after i cleaned the dust from it, it still plays alright with lowered volume and bass but definitely a great video for my recommended feed.
Even though I'm an old school passive xover-only guy. you've done a great job on these.... definitely go for woofers with a flatter response, that'll make your mixes easier. Challenge is to find one that is suitable for the box size (& you may need to change the tuning...)
Noise in the system might be generated by the power supply. Can you afford a better supply or add better filtering to the existing one? For bass units, I recommend the XXLS line from Peerless or the discontinued XLS if you can get a pair that fit. I think old midrange units and tweeters can be just as good as most modern ones.
Thanks, I'll definitely check those out! Would it be possible to just add a filter between the power supply (36v) and the amp? Sorry if this is a dumb question, my electronics knowledge is pretty poor.
@@SirFreak No, the filtering is part of the power supply circuit. There are "mains filters" on sale but they are mainly snake oil. What is powering the amp? Is it an SMPS?
I saw this now, so inspiring. my Adam A7X broke (one transformer started humming), so I bought the A77H, but man, recycling is really what I should have done :)
Nice! i once tried that time-alignment in sigma studio on a coaxial speaker driver, it had some weird effects like change the soundstage depth. definately worth a try
I ve built a s8milar project as yamah yas series soyndbar (providing surround sound from single point execution) by using class d amplifier for every speaker individually and a class d preamp i used shielded cables starting to end in the entire cabinet . Not a single normal wire only shielded . If you turn it On you will forget it that its On if its not playing any thing
I guess there will be reasons like "you don't need a power source where your speaker is", and "because it has always been like this" will also be one of them. This hybrid approach of an external amp that is still tri-amped is the most optimal in my opinion though (although the cost of the cables is a bit high).
How about trying to close the port like your ns-10s? Should get a tighter bass. Probably worth it to get new drivers in general if they are many years old.
I've experimented with that, but it also causes the bass driver to roll off even earlier. Right now I've replaced the bass driver with another one, after a long search for a driver that would fit in the box and would be appropriate for the size of the enclosure. The new driver is a lot more direct as well. I'll be making another video about that, but I'm still finetuning the system now.
I have some old but not that old Yamaha studio monitors that are starting to sound tired. I bought them used for $40 around the year 2000 and have been using them just about daily ever since. I cannot find woofer replacement for the life of me...the woofers are a semi tranparent cone so you can see the copper beneath...I like the look and they sound great, even if not as great as they used to. I am wondering if the woofers even need replacing...a modern crossover and new tweeters might make them sound great again. I think I might try to resolder all the connections first to see if that helps anything...maybe some solder has just gone weak over all these years. Maybe some QoL upgrades like banana plug connectors, a small 12v stereo amp with bluetooth mounted to the back to make them portable.They only have 6" woofer. I think if I were to upgrade the woofers, I could probably fit 8" but would obviously need to get a router to enlarge the cut out. These $40 have been one of my best puchases and Id love to keep them going for another 30 or 40 years. Edit...i have never opened the speakers csuse they are glued and soldered...what are the chances the reason I cannot find replacement woofers that look like this from Yamaha is that someone had already replaced the woofers with another brand? Hmmm...
Got most of the materials from SoundImports and Audiophonics. In the US you might want to use parts-express. I probably forgot a few things, but these should be the most important: - HiVi RT1.3WE Isodynamic Planar Tweeter - Neutrik NL8MDXX-V-BAG speakON 8p - Neutrik NL8FC - MOGAMI W2919 Speaker cable OFC Copper - PINTA AMORTSONBi10A PHD Self-adhesive bitumen backing - PINTA RESOBSON FU1220 Self-Adhesive Fabric Felt Damping - SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V - WONDOM AA-JA11117 Functional Cable Package for JAB3+ / JAB4 / JAB5 Boards - WONDOM ICP5 Programmer - WONDOM JAB5 AA-JA33286 Amplifier Module - Shrinkwrap - Wire for connecting to the power grid As for reading materials, I just searched around a lot on the internet as a progressed through this project. One book you might want to check out, recommended by a lot of people, is "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook", by Vance Dickason. It's quite an expensive book, and I have not read it yet, though. But heard that it's a real bible for speaker design. Hope that helps!
Hmmm. Haven't noticed that, no. As far as I could see they were sealed, and I suppose the bitumen sheets over them will also add an extra seal. I did apply glue around the new connectors though, as I wanted to make sure they were (and stay) sealed, so they don't leak air over there. I'll do some extra checks on the existing connectors to make sure there's no leakage over there, and if needed I might apply some silicon as well. I could be wrong, but I don't think there will be any issues there. But it never hurts to check, right? Thanks for making me aware of this!
You can add a ring or panel of the sticky felt around the tweeter to reduce or eliminate the edge diffraction. It maybe a bit thick so a thinner version maybe better. A brace behind the bass speaker magnet may give the bass more impact.
Thanks for the feedback! I had also thought about experimenting with some felt around the tweeter, but perhaps I'll try to find some black felt, so it doesn't stand out too much. Definitely things I should try.
Interesting video and project. Didn't you considered instead of "Digital" chain to go with full "Analogue" (D/A-> beefyy A/B or A Power amp->speakers) ?
As mentioned in the video, my knowledge of electronics is too limited to create a passive crossover network that would get the same quality result as what I managed to get out of these speakers now. I love A/B amps, but I would then have needed 3 separate amps and a DSP board with A/D-D/A conversion. This woud probably have resulted in quite a lot more costs. Might be an upgrade path for the future, but for now I'll stick to these boards.
Lovely video, I have been thinking about upgrading my old JBL Ti-200 bookshelves and those planar tweeters look really nice. I would love to see an update on how better woofers do in this setup, very interesting stuff! Maybe you can source some bass drivers off of defective/broken high end bowers&wilkins stuff, since they are renowned for tight bass?
I definitely plan to make a follow-up video. The sound test video is a good idea as well, but I'll probably need to use a better pair of mics for that.
I used a SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V. Although some people in the comments here suggest it's better to use a linear power supply.
@@SirFreak switching power supplies are great for these applications. I'm a live sound engineer, the hardly make powered speakers or amplifiers with transformers anymore, they're all switching supplies.
One issue with the bass driver is that the enclosure is quite small and the port looks fairly small too. So its quite possible that the box is tuned too high which in turn means that there is a lack of bottom end. Try to replace the port with a longer port? It may give you more lowend, and with the amount of power you have availible along with the control you can probably take a hit on the efficiency. If the bass has too low volume with a longer port you can just increase the gain. Or you can build bigger enclosures...
Definitely something I can experiment with. I'll be trying to find out the T/S parameters of that bass driver, and try to calculate what's optimal for this box.
@@SirFreakA simple way is to put in a PVC pipe and experiment with the length of the pipe. Or plug the hole and use the EQ on the amp to get more low end.
What is the noise coming from, could you enclose the amplifier in a EMI sheild? and use coiled with an insulation sheild on the wire / and a ferrite ring? If the noise is coming from the circuit itself only thing that pops into my head is a better opamp.
A rackmount case would be nice indeed! I've also been thinking about adding subs underneath them, or maybe even building subs. Perhaps a little project for once this is finished?
@@SirFreak it would be rude not to, given that there are so many "pro-sumer" home theatre even passive hi fi, add another class d amp and (literally) boom! job done, no?
Very enjoyable to watch. Entertaining and you described everything well with humour. You approached each problem with 'sound' reasoning. My only issue is the 3 DAYS it took to stick the bitumen in the boxes.. Good grief! (Ha, ha, ha.).. The tweeters are excellent, have been around for decades and are outstanding value. Going active with DSP has so many benefits... Guaranteed to push the performance of even these 'Frankensteins' beyond the majority of commercial passive designs. Very well done, you chose the donor well too, the paper Pioneer drivers are lightweight and very responsive and subjectively sound fast, exciting and detailed. PS There are better ways to brace the cabinets, but just be aware the internal volume will be robbed if you do get serious about it. Subscribed of course. I know TLDR and a bit all over the place... Can't help it, I've been up for 36 hours 🤠
I had to make a lot of small cutouts in the bitumen sheets, and that took ages. There are probably better ways to cut it than how I did it, that would take less time. But even taking this long, the end result was worth it. I could indeed have braced more, but I was afraid to alter the internal volume too much. There might be better bracing techniques as well, but I'm quite new to this, so if you have some tips on that, or material I could read, that would be very welcome! Thanks for your extensive comment!
great video! I have question. those speakers on stands, how big really are they? I built a pair of speakers my self and their like half my height and it feels like a stand wouldnt support them. there 3 way speakers which im trying to get to ear level. Do people really put those speakers on stands?
The size is 345 x 585 x 303mm. The stands I'm using support monitors up to 50kg, but that being said, I also sometimes have doubts about leaving them on the stands. For monitors the size you are talking about, it might be best to just raise them using concrete blocks. Cheap but effective. There are also some heavy duty stands for such monitors, but those cost an arm and a leg. Perhaps putting subs under your monitors is also an option.
Hey man thanks for the video! I felt like i'm watching a future version of myself: I'm also a music producer and I've been fascinated with speakers since I was a kid. been toying around with the idea of building a pair or restoring a pair for quite some time now. After having seen this one I'm totally up for going through the same journey as you did! I'm curios to see how you're going to handle the amps case. Also, I thought I'd might build a cabinet from scratch or get a blueprint of a cabinet design and get a CnC. Your way was definitely cheaper and easier. are you really satisfied with the cabinets now after the work you put in?
Yes, but of course building a cabinet from scratch is better, as you can build it specifically for the drivers you are using. Here I'm just trying to "fix" the issues with the cabinets, which would not exist if the cabinet was built correctly in the first place.
Nice project! I highly recommend you to get some low impedance bass drivers so you can extract all the POWER from the class D amps. Then you can also go for drivers with low Fs (resonance freq of like 27Hz) and big excursion for that sub bass. I think the Qts can be sligtly less than the box needs since you can force it with DSP so it still will sound tight and fast.
It's a good idea to get modern bass drivers - In a subwoofer! The orignal drivers will give great midbass, because they are light and large and are correctly tuned for the cabinet.
I've been contemplating getting the Dayton Audio Reference RSS265HO-44, but I still need to research and doublecheck a couple of things before I decide to order them.
My initial thoughts were that a heavy modern driver will have a different sound character to that delicate midrange. It could also create objectionable box resonance. Original maybe 40-50g moving mass vs 160g for the Dayton. But these are just guesses according to my "vintage goood" bias. For your studio a modern woofer might give you what you need. @impuls60 might know more about this stuff than me actually, I realised after checking out the channel. Also I didn't mean any disrespect with the cheeky wording 😇
@@seraphin_creates Interesting take, didn't realize that there would be that much difference in the moving mass, that might indeed have some concequences.. thanks!
Verry interesting vid, definitly no my area (just like wrting script hihi). i'm hoping to find the right info to repair one of my tascam monitors. Whenever i put the power on i hear like 1 or 2 seconds of sound and thn nothing any more. Have no clue at all what that might be. Bless
About the noise: I dont htink its the Amps. I have the APM2 DSP module (Same ADAU1701 DSP chip), and that has high noise. So I suspect that it is the DSPs or the power supplies.
It's possible, I should check with batteries to see if the issue persists. I found a lot of posts on reddit and some forums that did say it's the amp itself though.
erg leuk dat je dit probeerd. ik heb ook wat oudere b&w speakers waarbij ik de crossover vernieuw. oude condensators worden gewoon slecht. door de dsp heb je deze stap overgeslagen. wel bijzonder dat je de crossover punten hebt kunnen verlagen
Leuk project, veel succes ermee! En ja, had ik ook niet verwacht. Van de tweeter wel, omdat die nog redelijk laag kon gaan, maar ik had niet verwacht dat de midrange zo laag zou kunnen gaan.
Somewhat, yes. The vertical directivity was the worst (it was quite audible when moving my head up and down just a bit), and that is why I lowered the crossovers, which seemed to help quite a bit. As for the horizontal directivity, the tweeters do lose some air when moving too far away from the listening position, but for a studio monitor I do not really mind that. The sweet spot is large enough. Since these are studio monitors, and I'm tuning them specifically to the room, what's heard on axis, at the listening position, is the most important for me.
I shortly worked for a "pro audio" brand that did less work than you did on their speakers and that they sell for a lot of money. Well done, very impressive!
Thanks, good to know. I didn't connect any ground wires right now because the wall socket doesn't have a ground pin. So I might have to look to add one in the socket before I can do that. But I'll definitely make sure there's a proper ground connection when I put together the amp box
I skimmed the video for it, i apologize if you mentioned, but is your noise tweeter hiss? 120hz ripple, 120hz ground noise? or 60hz ripple? They all sound different, and tell a different story. Here's some oporational points you can probably work from to troubleshoot it. Very long post but i bet youll pull some useful info out of it. I( may be covering some things you did too, i watched this with a beer and bong in my hand lol. tweeter his is self explanatory. 120hz ripple is higher pitch then 60hz ripple, noticeably, but they are both a smooth low frequency hum. The 120hz ground noise is a much clicker, sharper sound with far more presence then the ripple because theres no filtration applied to it at source of the noise like with PSU ripple. Depending on the type of noise you have differnt options moving forward... Hope this message helps! I have a tpa3255 chip amp from amazon on my pc system that was a little hissy, and im running it from a fairly inexpensive switch mode power supply, much like what it looks like you used here. its 12v and im using a step up booster to bring it to 36v for the amp. I was able to get rid of pretty much ALL of the hiss by putting one of those 12v DC noise filters for car amplifiers between my 12v switching psu, and the step up converter. There may be a chance your filtering inductors or capacitors may not be quite up to the challenge. Thats what i initially assumed about mine. But in my case the noise was HF originating from the switch mode PSU, not the amplifier, and the amplifiers filtering just wasnt catching it for some reason, likely a circuit topology design flaw (VERY common with chinese chip amps... VERY). Cheaper switch modes tend to have quite a lot of high frequency switching noise on the line. And often whether its a claimed feature to remove this or not, itll make it into your tweeters on this kind of chip amp. If it's more of a lower frequency hum your dealing with, id look at your PSU first again, and start testing for ripple currents in the DC coming into the amplifier. Anything over .5Mv ripple and youll likely hear it up close with these cheap chip[ amps in my experience. whether people want to admit it or not, some of these better chip amps (tpa3255 properly implemented specifically) are some of the most neutral, and least colored, transparent, and detailed amplifiers ive ever heard in my life. Noise can come through fairly easily in a non optimal setup, through non optimal circuit topologies including output filtering, or through non optimal DC power source. If your dealing with power supply ripple, you may be able to help by changing raising, probably by 25-50% at least, the value of the large filtering caps in the power supply and with a good prand of low ripple low esr cap like nichicon or sanyo or something. But depending on the topology of the power supply this is still a crapshoot and you'd likely be playing and soldering around potentially dangerous amounts of current for little to no benefit. Noise from switching PSU's can be a real PITA sometimes. If its 60hz ripple not 120hz you may just have a janky IC or diode in th epsu leaking 60hz into the DC outputs, or it may just have an exceptionally noisy transformer causing excessive emi in which case... get a new psu, and make sure its better quality lol If you've ever let this power supply sit active for time with no load, you may have also damaged an IC in it, and that could be the source of your noise too. thats a big no no with switch mode power supplies. Unfortunately, that implementation of whichever chip you may be using, may just be noisy. Ive yet to hear a tda7492 chip amp that didnt tweeter hiss like a mother and let switching noise into the signal. Ive heard tpa3116 implementations that sound as good as 3255, and ive hear ones that sound worse then tda7492. Ive NEVER heard a noisy tpa3255 chip amp and ive heard a TON though. So if thats the chip you have, DEFINITELY start looking into your PSU step 1 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- also. i did similar with an old set of Acoustic research series 660 studio monitors. New dayton audio woofers, new GRS ribbon tweeters, and original mid range stayed as it was surprisingly fantastic. Designed crossovers in xsim and built them, tested, tweaked, rebuild, tested, tweaked rebuild. And i have a set of monitors out performing ANYTHING you can get for the under $400 i have into these things. Floor to ceiling wall to wall soundstage, a revealing and detailed character im not so sure ive experienced before. They make a friends Klipsch rf towers seem like a pig painted up as a show pony. The only issue being a ever so slight hint of image smearing between far left and center channel thanks to my room being a little too small for the way the drivers are arranged on the baffle. Ideally theyd be about 7.5 feet apart and id be about 8 feet back from center point. Listening position is at about 7 feet back, theyre about 6 feet apart. I have been able to set them up in rooms big enough for the way they want to be positioned, and t's truly a thing of beauty. The modern sound+vintage look is a really sick combo if you do it right. Im not suffering too much baffle diffraction thanks to how close the drivers are to the edge of the baffles, and because the baffles sit flush with the sides. I have to pay very close attention and listen at it hard for it to even be noticeable. My phasing is arrow flat til 9khz as well, and then its a slow, gradual dip at 45 degrees and barely hits 90 out of phase by 20k. My result far exceeded what i expected to get, and i changed my mind about giving them away to a friend too. They are going nowhere any time soon. Glad i never mentioned that plan to any friends yet. I never implemented any DSP, but im +/-2db from 40hz to 26khz thanks to being crossed over at 60hz with a surprisingly fantastically performing GRS high excursion 12" sub and where my crossover design ended up. That sub was $55 and performs when measured in my space a tiny bit BETTER then the comparably sized 12" dayton HO reference sub response wise. It phase aligns with my dayton "classic woofer" a lot more nicely then the dayton ref did too (which honestly shocked me). I can even tell its doing anything at all when on, because it weaves so nicely into the sound stage. But when its turned off, there go the meat and potatoes. I may actually try one of the $30 grs woofers in the simulators, id think its pair even more nicely then the dayton woofer, and in the band i want it to perform, their graphs are even flatter then the daytons too. I just wrote their drivers off on price alone to begin with. The grs ribbon im using rn that was only $70 on sale though blows away many far, FAR more expensive dome type tweeters in every conceivable regard too. It takes a bog ole pop-a-squat on the dayton AMT and dome reference tweeters, i was trying to use first. thats for sure. Far easier to manipulate a crossover design for as well. The amount of performance you can squeeze from $200 worth of drivers and the right sub-$200 amplifiers and some old goodwill boxes is absolutely insane if you put the time and effort in to do it right yourself.
Impressive project, and I totally agree about how much performance you can squeeze out of some hardware if you take the time and effort to do it right. I'm not really hearing an electrical noise like a 60hz main hum or something similar. It's more a faint constant white noise, and can mostly be heard in the tweeter, and a little bit in the midrange when I hold my ear close to it. Since I have a lot of extra headroom on the amps for the tweeter and midrange, I might try adding an L-pad. If that does not stop the noise, I might perhaps give modifying the power supply or getting another power supply a chance. Thanks for the tips, might come in handy.
Thats going to either be high frequency chip switching noise from the psu, or from the 3255 chips themselves that the output filtering on the amp isnt catching. A dc noise filter helped my cheap chip amps tweeter hiss, probably cut it nearly in half db wise. I have to stick my ear within a couple inches of the tweeter and crank the power amp to really pick it out over background noise now. Power supply noise does indeed make it through many of these chip amp filters. You could try adjusting output inductor and capacitor values if your decent with a soldering iron. Theyre large easily de soldered and re soldered parts. Tin a perfect world, the high frequency hiss SHOULD be getting filtered out by the inductor/capacitor circuits on the output stage of the amp, whether the switching noise is from psu or the chips... Thats what the output filter is for specifically.@@SirFreak Even the fosi V3 and za3 have some tweeter hiss if you turn them up loud and cut the signal. a dc line filter does absolutely nothing for them either. But even when music is cranked and paused, and you get up on the tweeter, there is very noticeable hiss. At least you didnt go with tda7492. Those chips hiss through any filters and you can hear it at any distance running from ANYTHING besides a high quality toroid that cost more then the amplifier lol. And even then you can still hear it from like 5-6 feet away with any real volume
The existing 10" woofer can be tuned lower via adding some cone mass, e.g. some Blu-Tack around the dust cap vent hole (the Thiele-Small equivalent is to add parallel capacitance across the driver coil) and the existing enclosure can be tuned c. 10% lower via stuffing the cabinet with speaker wool. You'd be changing the older "warm" c. 100Hz resonance to a more "punchy" modern sound that may better suit your music genre. High-end English speakers of yore were similarly tuned via gluing washers behind the dust cap! :)
Nice work, I'm sure you improved on those retro units with your modifications. I remember the cabinets of many Japanese speakers (well, most speakers really) from that time were very lightweight. I have played with some cheap Chinese eBay Class D amps and I've been really impressed with them. Lots of bank for the buck.
I got most of the materials from SoundImports and Audiophonics. In the US you might want to use parts-express. I probably forgot a few things, but these should be the most important: - HiVi RT1.3WE Isodynamic Planar Tweeter - Neutrik NL8MDXX-V-BAG speakON 8p - Neutrik NL8FC - MOGAMI W2919 Speaker cable OFC Copper - PINTA AMORTSONBi10A PHD Self-adhesive bitumen backing - PINTA RESOBSON FU1220 Self-Adhesive Fabric Felt Damping - SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V - WONDOM AA-JA11117 Functional Cable Package for JAB3+ / JAB4 / JAB5 Boards - WONDOM ICP5 Programmer - WONDOM JAB5 AA-JA33286 Amplifier Module - Shrinkwrap - Wire for connecting to the power grid Hope that helps!
for sure a new bass driver and maybe try to par a sub with them but by the looks of it you dont want to do that. would love to see another vid on these speakers👍
I'm still contemplating wether I'd want to add a pair of subs or not. Perhaps building subs myself might also be an idea. We'll see. More videos on these speakers will definitely come.
you have any suggestions how to build amplifiler in class D 2x100 or 2x120W witch be capable of powering 8ohm or 4ohm speakers, or how power class D amplifiler, i already have 2x120W amplifiler at TPA3116D2, but i having issues with powering it, i feel like i can't get more than 2x70W with clear audio, and it lack's bass so after adding bass it's like 2x60W not 120
Is the input signal loud enough? That might be a reason you're not getting the full power out of your amp. Depending on the sensitivity of the driver, 120w might also be a little low for a bass driver?
Got most of the materials from SoundImports and Audiophonics. In the US you might want to use parts-express. Power supply: - SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V Amp: - WONDOM AA-JA11117 Functional Cable Package for JAB3+ / JAB4 / JAB5 Boards - WONDOM ICP5 Programmer (needed for connecting them to the PC) - WONDOM JAB5 AA-JA33286 Amplifier Module Hope that helps!
Here is how my friend dealt with the problem. He earned his electrical engineering degree and moved to SLC, UT to work for Harmon Kardon as a digital signal processing engineer. Harmon and JBL merged giving Ryan access to speakers and amps for little money. Ryan uses 8) Crown Pro amps each bridged for single channel operation. His system is 4-way with separate cabinet for each driver, separate amp for each driver. Each amp is over 1300 watts. Each amp has custom band pass filter for each driver. Result is seamless audio spectrum from whisper to explosion. JBL shut Harmon down so Ryan now does same job for Atlas Audio. Very impressive system!!!
Parts-express used to sell Dynaudio drivers & diy plans for complete speakers. Madisound is also a good source for drivers and cross-over parts. My system is PrimaLuna vacuum tube based. Speakers are now JBL 4425 studio monitors. I also have 2) Crowns XLS & XLi 1500 series. XLS is class D & XLi is class AB.
@@manitsony6703 the fan does indeed make some noise. The mid to high bands sound much better than a typical studio monitor. The bass/sub was not bad, but was not great either. In the meantime I replaced the bass driver as well. A video about that will be dropping later.
@@SirFreak interesting.. these are xlr inputs? I did buy external dsp speaker processors but it was a cheap one from Toman... Immediately when I plug my cable inside I felt the degradation of the sound is it because of the dac on dsp??
@@manitsony6703 Could be a bad dac/adc, or it could be that the adc is clipping (happens with the boards I used when the level is too hot). Sadly, these are not XLR. I could put an XLR input board in front of these, but the cable from my DAC to these boards is so short I notice no degradation in sound. More expensive amps like Icepower and Hypex would be better though, and those usually have XLR inputs. But they will be way more expensive, so that's a decision you need to make for the speakers you are working on. The amps I used are in no way perfect, but with some modifications I did (keep an eye out for that in an upcoming video) I did reduce some issues like that noise.
3:48 You clean out the corrosion, spray Inox3 or similar penetrant/protector and you can unwind the voice coil a single half turn on each wire to re-wire it if it's broken at the leads. You most certain *can* repair it. Is it worth it? Probably not.
@@SirFreak the new ones are better aside from maybe higher crossover required. Those originals wouldn't be worth much given these pioneers aren't exactly like Yamaha ns1000
Awesome and inspiring, thanks for the video. Would really appreciate if you could share details of the parts and components you have used and where to order. Thanks
Got most of the materials from SoundImports and Audiophonics. In the US you might want to use parts-express.
I probably forgot a few things, but these should be the most important:
- HiVi RT1.3WE Isodynamic Planar Tweeter
- Neutrik NL8MDXX-V-BAG speakON 8p
- Neutrik NL8FC
- MOGAMI W2919 Speaker cable OFC Copper
- PINTA AMORTSONBi10A PHD Self-adhesive bitumen backing
- PINTA RESOBSON FU1220 Self-Adhesive Fabric Felt Damping
- SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V
- WONDOM AA-JA11117 Functional Cable Package for JAB3+ / JAB4 /
JAB5 Boards
- WONDOM ICP5 Programmer
- WONDOM JAB5 AA-JA33286 Amplifier Module
- Shrinkwrap
- Wire for connecting to the power grid
Hope that helps!
I've watched a lot of self-building and self upgrading existing speakers videos but most of them were just for show and either glossed over certain parts of the connective process or omitted it intentionally. From your video I've got what I've been missing. You did great with these babies, giving them new lease on life. It may be an expensive process but you're not doing it everyday and you'll end up with some truly unique sounding speakers.
Glad you liked the video!
Agreed!
Very nice restoration of these old speakers! Glad we could provide the replacement parts.
Thank you! Your service was great!
Next level of upgrading and renewal processing, you've mastered it like a pro audio engineer.
Haha, I'm definitely not on the level of a pro audio engineer, but thanks for the nice comment! I appreciate that!
As for upgrading the speakers, and adding anti-resonant foam on the inside of the cabinets Dynomat have a number of products you can use even if they are not specifically made for speakers. Local company so always like to give them a plug. They make really good product for your speakers, car and home. People spend 1000's on stereo eqpt. but never add acoustic treatment in their house.
Dynomat can indeed be an alternative for the bitumen.
And yes, room treatment is very important. I put up a bunch of panels now for testing, but I still need to do it properly for this room. There might be a video on that later.
Such a cool project! Even recorded through the camera mic, the speakers already sound impressive. Also striking that they brought your attention to a detail you had never picked up before in a song you know well, that must mean you've done a good job!
Thanks for the nice comment Mario!
I was quite surprised to be hearing that much detail, to be honest.
That being said you can also get that situation from having a big old peak in the frequency response that highlights that specific problem :)
I took a pair of old Bose 501s and redid the entire box with new drivers and crossovers. Man they sound so good now.
Interesting, I'll have a look at your video!
Aahh, since you mentioned Bose, around 2001 I bought Bose 100, a plastic box with single driver.
2019 I put the driver into a new mdf box, with around 6.5l volume, yes the sound was way beyond what I thought
Cool making vintage even better .
I love the vintage look combined with the modern technology and sound quality.
I really wish I had all of the necessary equipment needed in order to do "digital" crossovers through a computer or whatever, because the versatility of that type of setup is impressive! I'm relatively knowledgeable about passive crossover design, but what all you were able to do with your digital crossover with these speakers was awesome! Even more impressive considering you said you never worked on speakers before! Wow!
A cheap windows computer (and an ICP5 programmer board in my case) should do the trick! If you want to do measurements as well you will indeed also need a measurement microphone and an audio interface. Quite the investment indeed. I was lucky to have most of this stuff lying around already.
That being said, I find passive crossovers quite daunting, so I'm always impressed with people building those.
@@SirFreak Yeah, I guess everyone has their strengths in some way or another. I find passive crossover design to be fun and (relatively) easy and simple because you're dealing with hard physical components that always do a very specific certain thing that you can count on. Of course it's somewhat variable, depending on interaction with other components in the circuit, but the basic function of each component in a passive crossover is always gonna be pretty much the same everytime, as in what it does to the signal...
Whereas with computers and anything related to them, literally every single button, including every single virtual button or tab or thing that you can click on on the screen does MANY multiple different things based on what you're looking at, what "screen" you're on, or what program is running, etc. Computers are SO "versatile", as in they can do SO MANY different things, that just that one specific fact is exactly WHY I have an extremely difficult time understanding exactly HOW to make them do any one specific thing that I want them to at any given moment... I NEVER know what button (or rather what extensive exact button SEQUENCE) to push OR what to click on on the screen in order to get what I want out of it, because everything is constantly changing on the screen AND what each key or key combination or sequence does in each and every instance.
Unfortunately with me, computers in general are just WAY too complicated for me to grasp what they're doing in any given instance, and because I started (trying to) "learn about them" way back in the "Basic" programming code days, I've never been able to comprehend all of their many intricacies of operation...
Way back then I was always thinking that "If computers are gonna be THIS ridiculously difficult and complicated to use, then I cannot see how they could ever even be of any REAL benefit to you!"... Rather just an overly complicated time wasting device...
And even though nowadays, in the modern computer era, I actually CAN see how useful they are or can be, (at least as long as and IF you know exactly HOW to use them to get what you want out of them by knowing the exact keystrokes and mouse clicks needed, AND in what exact order is needed for whatever function or result to happen), but unfortunately for me, I just cannot ever grasp even the basic understanding of how to get them to do ANYTHING truly useful for ME! I always have to have someone else show me how to make it do something, whatever that may be, but the sequence of button pushes is SO complex AND is ever changing depending on what exactly you're trying to do on it, that even immediately after someone "shows me how to do something" on a computer, I can't ever remember the keystrokes needed to do the exact same thing myself, so as (potentially) "useful" as a computer could be, (for someone who knows computers anyway), I don't think that I will ever be able to comprehend them enough to do anything on them myself, because even after literal decades of TRYING to understand how to make them work for me, I still can't even do the most basic things on them. My brain gets totally fried and frustrated every time I try to, lol!
The most complicated piece of modern equipment that I can (sort of) operate, (at least SOME features), is my cellphone that I'm writing this reply out on. It is the closest thing I have to a "computer", AND it's my ONLY access to the Internet, (I don't have internet at my house in a "hard" or "physical" form such as a cable modem or whatever, because I don't own a computer because of above reasons, so why pay for internet (at home) that I'd never use), but all I can do with my cellphone is watch RUclips videos, make phone calls, texting with close friends and family, and checking my email, not really much else.
Anyway, as cool as this program or whatever you have there for the speaker's crossover is, if I was to get any of that stuff myself I wouldn't be able to use it anyway, I would have to always have someone else who knew how to use it, (someone like you for example), actually make it do what I was describing and knew in my head what I wanted, but just didn't know how to make it actually work that way, lol!
You're very lucky to have this equipment to do this sort of thing with your computer! AND to have the knowledge of computers in general in order to make it all work to a truly useful degree, because I could see how having and knowing how to use something like this setup would make speaker designing and building SO much faster and (potentially, IF you knew how to use it all), probably even relatively easier too! I actually kind of envy people like you, because I just wish I could comprehend this sort of setup too! (AND of course have the money to buy it all too, which unfortunately I don't either.)
Oh well, I can still build passive crossovers the old fashioned way, even though they oftentimes take MANY days, weeks, sometimes even months to perfect, by "trial and error", whereas with software based digital crossovers, they can be designed to work well within just a few minutes or hours because the "computer" does most of the calculations automatically. Wow!)
Very interesting video. I found what I consider a "magic combination" modifying a pair of Kenwood JL-690 speakers. I listened to them in stock form to listen for anything I didn't like.
First these are rear ported, something I have never like in any speaker. I glued a plug in the rear ports which also lacked port tubes, they were just a hole in the cabinet. I got real port tubes for them and drilled a hole in the front and installed the new port tubes. I removed the factory crossover/input terminal combination and enlarged the hole to accommodate Infinity Reference 5 crossovers (real crossovers!). I added a L-pad volume control for the midrange driver as they were to "forward" for my liking and that toned them down nicely. Finally I added acoustic batting inside the cabinets. Now this inexpensive speaker system sounds absolutely fantastic. I'm using them on a Kenwood KA-3500, sometimes a KA-7100. They sound so warm and very satisfying to listen to.
Nice mods!
WOW ! A lot of work going into the restoration. Pretty well all corners covered. The speakers that I use each contain one 15" woofer, 2 mid-range drivers, and 4 tweeters. Combined with adjustments made via a Soundcraftsmen PE 2217 Preamp/Equalizer, they sound pretty good. I built the speakers myself back in 1978.
That seems like quite an impressive build!
Damn, what an impressive project! Great video
I'm curious to see them in action :D
A follow up video on the enclosure of the amps would be nice!
Thanks mate! We'll have to arrange that!
You should make a short video, referencing this full in depth video!
Great video! I enjoyed watching :) keep up the good work! James
Thanks James!
I love these types of builds. Cool video, great job man.
Thanks!
Taking a good set of older speakers that don't work and had better days but have a very good cabinet is a great way to build and refurbish speakers without starting from scratch. You usually can pick them up cheap at garage sales so not only will they save you time and effort, but also hopefully some $$ as well. Besides, how many people have a lumber mill in their garage to build from scratch?
My lack of a lumber mill is indeed why I tried this 😅
Downside is that many older speakers use that border where grills are meant to fit, which isn't the best acoustics wise
@@RennieAsh True, that's where the problems with the edge diffraction come from. I might experiment with some felt around the tweeter to see if that improves the frequency response (instead of compensating for it in the dsp).
@@SirFreak could also do it for the midrange, or just surround the border. Might not look as good unless you can cut neatly and maybe colour/dye the felt black
great work! I have a pair of JBL 4412's I bought in very bad shape. SO bad I literally had to rebuild the boxes as they were smashed in a way all the corners weren't tight. So I had to redo them, wood putty, sand and paint in dark gray. Then I had to recoil the 12 inches and have both tweeters replaced as they needed new voice coils and it's a lot of work to repair. I bought new tweeters (same models) but they were actually also broken. So I managed to find a JBL expert that could fix them. But when I look at the way to sound prrof the box, I wish I spent that time searching for the right materials. Very nice. If you can add more detail on the sound deadening material I might put more effort there. Thanks!
Amazing project, I really love the look of those JBL's!
The felt I used is PINTA RESOBSON FU1220, and the Bitumen sheets are PINTA AMORTSONBi10A PHD. I suppose similar materials from other brands might work good as well, if this is hard to get in your area. Hope this helps to further improve your speakers!
Great work with this upgrade! Congratulations!
Thank you!
For what they are I love the sound of my Pioneer CS-53's. They're still a budget oriented speaker but I think they were a model with a very slight step above what you have in your video in build quality. The cabinet is made of actual plywood and not particle/press-board. The rear baffles can also be unscrewed for easy access into the enclosure. Aside from that they are just a simple bass-reflex 2-way speaker with no actual crossovers. Just a filtering capacitor soldered to the paper cone tweeter. I would like to eventually add some actual crossovers into them as well as make them more rigid. Possibly add in some sound damping. For now they sound good as they are. :)
Those should be from the same period as this CS-515 speaker. One of the brochures that I found (which is shown in the video as well) mentions them both. I'm not sure if they are from the same series, I suppose not, but they definitely have a similar looking finish. I think adding an actual crossover in these would definitely increase the clarity, since the basswoofer won't be trying to replicate high frequency content anymore. Good luck with them!
@@SirFreak I've tried looking for info on them over the years and have found info for the later year versions. But I can't find what year date mine are. The factory plug-in's look to be of an early configuration.
They still retain the same 1/4" SRT plug and screw terminals for spade connectors like the later models. But they are both separated on the rear baffle. On the later revised models both connector types are integrated into one terminal cup. Most likely for cost savings.
I'll most likely switch them over to a more modern plug type when I get around to making them better in the future. We will have to see. :)
@@Slane583 Good luck with that modification!
@@SirFreak Thank you! It'll be worth it when I get around to it. :)
Fantastic job! You achieved fantastic levels of refurbishment/repurposing out of those old speakers; even though they were lacking key things like strong cabinet walls and acoustic dampening, the end result was amazing! The noise you’re hearing might be coming from either the power supply or the DSP. If you can, I’d recommend trying to use linear power supplies with toroidal transformers to see if that eliminates the problem; those are expensive though, so maybe you can find someone that could lend you one just for testing. If it is confirmed that the noise is originated by the power supply, you can add a passive filtering stage between the power supply and the amplifier to get rid of those noisy frequencies, since they should be in a very well-defined range. If the noise, however, is being generated by the amplifier, you may be able to either (a) add an end-stage filter in the DSP, or (b) add an analog filter network (capacitors and inductors) at the output between the amp and the output connector. Finally, I’d recommend placing the electronics inside a metal box (make sure to use spacers and insulators to not short-circuit anything, and allow for proper ventilation to avoid overheating) since that will work as a Faraday Cage to avoid noise interference from external sources. I’d love to know if any of these ideas worked for you, please keep us posted, and again, congratulations on the outcome of this project! Keep up the great work 😊
Thanks for the advice!
Great DIY video! Keep up the good work!
Thanks @Lamietn!
I really like how with the modern DSP based crossover you can help those vintage drivers reach their full potential. I believe you can help the bass driver reach a little bit lower, but at some point you will be limited by the maximum linear excursion, beyond which the speaker starts to distort, so this is dependent on the volume you are wishing to aim for. For a person who has never opened a speaker before, I'd say you have done an absolutely spectacular job, and I bet the sound you've got out of these boxes is worth much more than what you've paid for the components!
It definitely feels like I've got a speaker that's worth way more than what I paid for in components right now. It of course took time and effort too, but I learned a lot and it was really worth it for me in the end.
I'll be experimenting more with getting the most out of the bass driver before I decide to buy another driver. I'll probably be able to still improve some things in the DSP. I hope I can tell more about that in a next video.
You could adjust the tuning frequency by extending the port to some degree. Doesn't have to be a massive change, just enough to get more output towards 30 Hz or so, which I know those old Pioneer speakers can reach. I have an old pair of CS-656 speakers, and they do reach down to around 30 Hz. Also 10" drivers, but they are significantly cheaper made.
Speaking of Pioneer speakers. I have a set of DIY speakers with Pioneer car audio components as well, which I made in a hybrid transmission line design (T-line + pressure chamber). These play low bass frequencies down to 27 Hz, from a 6.5" driver. Now, I do need to rebuild them at some point, as the cabinets are made from scrap material from other builds, which resonates really bad in the midrange and high-bass frequencies. Now, the cutoff for the crossover is a little high (4.5 kHz). I would like it more if the cutoff were at 3 kHz instead, as the tweeters are more than capable to handle those frequencies (as the high-midrange is a little lacking). But overall, the speakers sound nice and crisp, and they play smooth bass tones.
@@Skarfar90 Thanks for the advice! Good luck with the rebuild!
I'd love to see a part 2 of you're upgrading the bass drivers!
I might first experiment a bit to see if I can improve the response of the current driver. If that doesn't give the results I'm after, that will definitely be a video.
Wow, you chose the perfect information to explain this project. I've had to dig through so many videos and forums to understand speakerbuilding/restoring. I really apreciate how you explained the benefits of restoring speakers and completely agree with the recycling midset, however I'd really like to see you build a speaker from concept to reality. I think you would do an amazing job at explaining the process.
Perhaps some day. I'm really lacking the proper woodworking tools/space to do that right now.
Great job, very thoughtful approach to dealing with the crossover and eq issues. I'm going to upgrade some old big box yamaha speakers and will copy your approach on the cabinets, I like what you did to reduce resonance. Glad I found your video.
Good luck!
very nice, did exactly this with a pair Magnat MSP70, changed the crossover and the original metal dome tweeter ( i didn't like ) to a Radian LT 2.2, perfect fit and a very nice sound
Awesome! Pretty nice specs on that ribbon as well. Do you have pictures?
I love your shirt!
Thanks for the great video!
It's a Monuments bandshirt. Bought it at a show a couple of years back. I wanted to link it, but I think they no longer sell it. Thanks for watching!
hello there I am happy to say that I am happy to see another one like me and I am glad to say that it had to be
As a former electroacoustic engineer I'm delighted by your curiosity and rigor and it's great to see DIY done in that space. In my opinion though, this is not a cost saving measure. The science has come a long way in the last few decades and a lot of techniques that improve the performance of a speaker are not intuitive. Some very cheap off-the-shelf speakers nowadays integrate technology from their bigger brothers, which makes them much more suited as a studio monitor than a modifyed old speaker. For example, the waveguide of the JBL LSR 305 eliminates smoothes out the directivity a lot, which is much more important than the frequency spectrum that you can easily change with software. You can get a pair used for almost nothing and you don't need an amplifier because they are active. The only real downside is it's rather loud white noise when it's on but not playing anything, but that's present in all speakers in that category. And if you are concerned about bass performance - don't be. In order to have "studio grade" bass you need to invest a lot into room acoustics and by that point you will have more budget for speakers available. In either case, fun project and good watch!
Hey there! Correct! What I did was definitely not cheap, and it was a lot of work as well.
I also agree that there have been a lot of improvements in speaker-building in the last decades. I also do not have the required knowledge to design a custom waveguide, nor will I acquire that knowledge in the near future. As far as I know, waveguides are very easy to get wrong, and this could cause more issues than advantages. And I'm also still a complete newbie when it comes to this stuff, so I try to stick to the basics.
That being said, and with all due respect, I'd gladly put these speakers next to those cheap JBL's and I'm pretty sure the JBLs will sound like cheap junk next to what I made here.
Are my speakers perfect right now? Definitely not. But I'd much rather mix on them than on any budget studio monitor.
Thanks for watching!
This is funny. I am thinking about doing this with these tower speakers i have ,and you have given me some really good ideas. Thank you !!
@@ronmerkus5941 Good luck!
I am also running a tri amped system with a cheap class D board like this. It helps to put a resistor in line with the tweeter. As this is the main producer of high frequency noise. By changing the gain structure you can compensate for the loss in volume but at the same time reduce noise. You just need to drive the amp a bit harder which will improve the SNR.
Great idea! The tweeter amp is 100w, but the tweeter has a nominal power handling of 10w, so I still have some headroom that I can lose. Right now I'm turning the gain of the tweeters down quite a lot.
I'll definitely try adding resistors, perhaps even a little L-pad to the midrange as wel (since that is turned down as well).
I'm not quite sure what type of resistors would be best for high quality audio? Do you have any advice on that?
@@SirFreak Nah you dont need to go fancy resistors. Just make sure they can handle a bit of power.
Good job those speakers look cool too, want to do this with some old Kenwoods and Sony's sitting around with blown tweeters.
Could be a nice project, good luck!
Really interesting process. Learned a lot while watching this. Nice job!
Thanks for the nice comment!
bEst Video ive watched in Months. Like wow amazing no words
Thanks for the nice comment!
Excellent video and a superb job! Just a few points being DIY'er speaker builder myself, good choice to have the lower crossover point to the planar tweeter. This integrates better to the mid, as mentioned, and being that the planar tweeter can be crossed lower. The felt absorbent material only needs to be on three surfaces, rather than all of them, which will yield a deeper bass cut-off point, and still reduce internal standing waves just the same. The edge diffraction can be controlled by applying a thin layer of felt surrounding the tweeter to the edge of the cabinet. The better method would be a more involved modification, by offsetting the tweeter on the front baffle. The diffractions in this case become more diffuse, (less audible) and do not sum at the same frequencies.
Offsetting the tweeter would be quite a drastic modification, so I'm not sure I'll go for that. But I might definitely try to use some felt around the tweeter. Just not sure what felt to use yet. I hope I can find some black/gray felt, so it does not stand out too much.
Interesting. What's the reason that three surfaces will result in a deeper bass cut-off point?
Thanks for the tips!
Hi SirFreak, This may seem counter-intuitive, an internal standing wave needs two opposing surfaces to set itself up. If we have one bare surface opposed by another bare surface, there will be interference, and standing waves. If we glue absorbent material to one opposing side, it absorbs some energy, delays it, converts some into heat. The longer waveform released by the treated wall, interferes less, or not at all with the untreated one.
Asymmetry in speaker design is your friend.
The enclosure volume was designed to work with the port as a system. As we stuff, or over-stuff the box, an ideal amount may improve bass quality, but then adding more (too much) can reverse this, and produce less bass. The cabinet and port system may develop a mid-bass peak that wasn't there before. The quality of bass will be affected by how we stuff the box, and how this changes virtual box volume and actual box volume. Adding absorbent material tends to make the virtual box size "larger" however there will be the point of diminishing returns,, that more stuffing reduces actual box volume, and reduced bass output and quality.
@@TheFRiNgEguitars Interesting, thanks for the extensive explanation!
Very cool and useful project! I also used sigmaDSP with a simpler 2-way actively crossed PA build for my band. It's awesome how cheap DSP control has become, especially since analog crossover design can get pretty hairy! I used the ADAU-1701 DSP with a 300Wx2 wondom amplifier for the subs and a couple little 50w mono amps for the piezo horn loaded tweeters.
Really lovely that these boards exist. They're far from perfect, but do the trick
I want to replace the drivers and customise the *enclosure for my sony micro hifi system, the woofer rubber part is so brittle it cracked after i cleaned the dust from it, it still plays alright with lowered volume and bass but definitely a great video for my recommended feed.
You might also want to look up "driver refoaming". Worth a try and will be a lot cheaper and easier than finding a new replacement driver.
Beautiful
Glad you like it!
nice one, actually properly done not just for the looks of it :]
While I love nice looking speakers, the main goal here was sound quality. Thanks for your nice comment!
You are doing well with your project, I'm sure they sound very good.
Thanks for the nice comment!
Even though I'm an old school passive xover-only guy. you've done a great job on these.... definitely go for woofers with a flatter response, that'll make your mixes easier. Challenge is to find one that is suitable for the box size (& you may need to change the tuning...)
I still have some research to do :)
Really good explanation on how to go about this project. Keep up the great work!
Thank you!
Noise in the system might be generated by the power supply. Can you afford a better supply or add better filtering to the existing one? For bass units, I recommend the XXLS line from Peerless or the discontinued XLS if you can get a pair that fit. I think old midrange units and tweeters can be just as good as most modern ones.
Thanks, I'll definitely check those out! Would it be possible to just add a filter between the power supply (36v) and the amp? Sorry if this is a dumb question, my electronics knowledge is pretty poor.
@@SirFreak No, the filtering is part of the power supply circuit. There are "mains filters" on sale but they are mainly snake oil. What is powering the amp? Is it an SMPS?
@@naomimoore47 It's a SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V
I saw this now, so inspiring. my Adam A7X broke (one transformer started humming), so I bought the A77H, but man, recycling is really what I should have done :)
The A77H are also very nice monitors :)
Nice!
i once tried that time-alignment in sigma studio on a coaxial speaker driver, it had some weird effects like change the soundstage depth. definately worth a try
Interesting! I'll certainly try messing around with it!
I ve built a s8milar project as yamah yas series soyndbar (providing surround sound from single point execution) by using class d amplifier for every speaker individually and a class d preamp i used shielded cables starting to end in the entire cabinet . Not a single normal wire only shielded . If you turn it On you will forget it that its On if its not playing any thing
Awesome!
Thank you, you made a great work.
Thank you!
Great job sir. Active equipment in a studio is the way to go.i allways wonder why so- called audiophile expensive speakers are not connected this way
I guess there will be reasons like "you don't need a power source where your speaker is", and "because it has always been like this" will also be one of them. This hybrid approach of an external amp that is still tri-amped is the most optimal in my opinion though (although the cost of the cables is a bit high).
How about trying to close the port like your ns-10s? Should get a tighter bass. Probably worth it to get new drivers in general if they are many years old.
I've experimented with that, but it also causes the bass driver to roll off even earlier. Right now I've replaced the bass driver with another one, after a long search for a driver that would fit in the box and would be appropriate for the size of the enclosure. The new driver is a lot more direct as well. I'll be making another video about that, but I'm still finetuning the system now.
I have some old but not that old Yamaha studio monitors that are starting to sound tired. I bought them used for $40 around the year 2000 and have been using them just about daily ever since. I cannot find woofer replacement for the life of me...the woofers are a semi tranparent cone so you can see the copper beneath...I like the look and they sound great, even if not as great as they used to. I am wondering if the woofers even need replacing...a modern crossover and new tweeters might make them sound great again. I think I might try to resolder all the connections first to see if that helps anything...maybe some solder has just gone weak over all these years. Maybe some QoL upgrades like banana plug connectors, a small 12v stereo amp with bluetooth mounted to the back to make them portable.They only have 6" woofer. I think if I were to upgrade the woofers, I could probably fit 8" but would obviously need to get a router to enlarge the cut out. These $40 have been one of my best puchases and Id love to keep them going for another 30 or 40 years.
Edit...i have never opened the speakers csuse they are glued and soldered...what are the chances the reason I cannot find replacement woofers that look like this from Yamaha is that someone had already replaced the woofers with another brand? Hmmm...
Hmm I could be wrong, but it sounds like they might need new capacitors?
Thanks you. Now i know the speakon connector
Welcome!
Great work! Thank you from Brasil!
Thank you!
I've wanted to make a project like that for years! do you have links for further reading materials and the parts website?
Got most of the materials from SoundImports and Audiophonics. In the US you might want to use parts-express.
I probably forgot a few things, but these should be the most important:
- HiVi RT1.3WE Isodynamic Planar Tweeter
- Neutrik NL8MDXX-V-BAG speakON 8p
- Neutrik NL8FC
- MOGAMI W2919 Speaker cable OFC Copper
- PINTA AMORTSONBi10A PHD Self-adhesive bitumen backing
- PINTA RESOBSON FU1220 Self-Adhesive Fabric Felt Damping
- SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V
- WONDOM AA-JA11117 Functional Cable Package for JAB3+ / JAB4 /
JAB5 Boards
- WONDOM ICP5 Programmer
- WONDOM JAB5 AA-JA33286 Amplifier Module
- Shrinkwrap
- Wire for connecting to the power grid
As for reading materials, I just searched around a lot on the internet as a progressed through this project. One book you might want to check out, recommended by a lot of people, is "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook", by Vance Dickason. It's quite an expensive book, and I have not read it yet, though. But heard that it's a real bible for speaker design.
Hope that helps!
Great video!
Did you notice some back noise from the connector cut outs? I did find that those ate not air seal, so I used silicon glue to them.
Hmmm. Haven't noticed that, no. As far as I could see they were sealed, and I suppose the bitumen sheets over them will also add an extra seal. I did apply glue around the new connectors though, as I wanted to make sure they were (and stay) sealed, so they don't leak air over there. I'll do some extra checks on the existing connectors to make sure there's no leakage over there, and if needed I might apply some silicon as well. I could be wrong, but I don't think there will be any issues there. But it never hurts to check, right? Thanks for making me aware of this!
You can add a ring or panel of the sticky felt around the tweeter to reduce or eliminate the edge diffraction. It maybe a bit thick so a thinner version maybe better. A brace behind the bass speaker magnet may give the bass more impact.
Thanks for the feedback! I had also thought about experimenting with some felt around the tweeter, but perhaps I'll try to find some black felt, so it doesn't stand out too much.
Definitely things I should try.
Great video!
Thank you Benj!
ive got a pair of them pioneer speakers somewhere!
Awesome. I'm wondering how the original tweeters sound!
Bravo Sir, great effort, but awesome project!
Thanks!
Interesting video and project. Didn't you considered instead of "Digital" chain to go with full "Analogue" (D/A-> beefyy A/B or A Power amp->speakers) ?
As mentioned in the video, my knowledge of electronics is too limited to create a passive crossover network that would get the same quality result as what I managed to get out of these speakers now. I love A/B amps, but I would then have needed 3 separate amps and a DSP board with A/D-D/A conversion. This woud probably have resulted in quite a lot more costs. Might be an upgrade path for the future, but for now I'll stick to these boards.
Lovely video, I have been thinking about upgrading my old JBL Ti-200 bookshelves and those planar tweeters look really nice.
I would love to see an update on how better woofers do in this setup, very interesting stuff!
Maybe you can source some bass drivers off of defective/broken high end bowers&wilkins stuff, since they are renowned for tight bass?
Perhaps, if I can find some. But I'll first look what's possible with the current driver.
I JUST LOVED YOUR VIDEO. PLEASE MAKE MORE VIDEO ON THIS SPEAKER. ALSO MAKE A SMALL 5 MIN VIDEO ONLY SOUND TEST. KEEP IT UP
I definitely plan to make a follow-up video. The sound test video is a good idea as well, but I'll probably need to use a better pair of mics for that.
The amplifier is Wondom JAB5, same exact copy of the Dayton Audio KABD-4100. I need the power supply info
I used a SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V. Although some people in the comments here suggest it's better to use a linear power supply.
@@SirFreak switching power supplies are great for these applications. I'm a live sound engineer, the hardly make powered speakers or amplifiers with transformers anymore, they're all switching supplies.
Very very slick!
Thanks for the nice comment!
One issue with the bass driver is that the enclosure is quite small and the port looks fairly small too. So its quite possible that the box is tuned too high which in turn means that there is a lack of bottom end.
Try to replace the port with a longer port? It may give you more lowend, and with the amount of power you have availible along with the control you can probably take a hit on the efficiency. If the bass has too low volume with a longer port you can just increase the gain.
Or you can build bigger enclosures...
Definitely something I can experiment with. I'll be trying to find out the T/S parameters of that bass driver, and try to calculate what's optimal for this box.
@@SirFreakA simple way is to put in a PVC pipe and experiment with the length of the pipe. Or plug the hole and use the EQ on the amp to get more low end.
welldone, it makes me wanna do such a thing myself
It's quite a bit of work and you'll find yourself doing a lot of research, but it can be very rewarding. Good luck!
What is the noise coming from, could you enclose the amplifier in a EMI sheild? and use coiled with an insulation sheild on the wire / and a ferrite ring? If the noise is coming from the circuit itself only thing that pops into my head is a better opamp.
Might give some of those things a try, thanks.
Amazing work! I would 100% put the amps in a rack. Also, I can't help thinking a sub would go well with each side. Or a 2.1 set up?
A rackmount case would be nice indeed! I've also been thinking about adding subs underneath them, or maybe even building subs. Perhaps a little project for once this is finished?
@@SirFreak it would be rude not to, given that there are so many "pro-sumer" home theatre even passive hi fi, add another class d amp and (literally) boom! job done, no?
Very enjoyable to watch. Entertaining and you described everything well with humour. You approached each problem with 'sound' reasoning. My only issue is the 3 DAYS it took to stick the bitumen in the boxes.. Good grief! (Ha, ha, ha.).. The tweeters are excellent, have been around for decades and are outstanding value.
Going active with DSP has so many benefits... Guaranteed to push the performance of even these 'Frankensteins' beyond the majority of commercial passive designs. Very well done, you chose the donor well too, the paper Pioneer drivers are lightweight and very responsive and subjectively sound fast, exciting and detailed. PS There are better ways to brace the cabinets, but just be aware the internal volume will be robbed if you do get serious about it. Subscribed of course.
I know TLDR and a bit all over the place... Can't help it, I've been up for 36 hours 🤠
I had to make a lot of small cutouts in the bitumen sheets, and that took ages. There are probably better ways to cut it than how I did it, that would take less time. But even taking this long, the end result was worth it.
I could indeed have braced more, but I was afraid to alter the internal volume too much. There might be better bracing techniques as well, but I'm quite new to this, so if you have some tips on that, or material I could read, that would be very welcome!
Thanks for your extensive comment!
great video! I have question. those speakers on stands, how big really are they? I built a pair of speakers my self and their like half my height and it feels like a stand wouldnt support them. there 3 way speakers which im trying to get to ear level. Do people really put those speakers on stands?
The size is 345 x 585 x 303mm. The stands I'm using support monitors up to 50kg, but that being said, I also sometimes have doubts about leaving them on the stands.
For monitors the size you are talking about, it might be best to just raise them using concrete blocks. Cheap but effective. There are also some heavy duty stands for such monitors, but those cost an arm and a leg.
Perhaps putting subs under your monitors is also an option.
Hey man thanks for the video! I felt like i'm watching a future version of myself: I'm also a music producer and I've been fascinated with speakers since I was a kid. been toying around with the idea of building a pair or restoring a pair for quite some time now. After having seen this one I'm totally up for going through the same journey as you did! I'm curios to see how you're going to handle the amps case. Also, I thought I'd might build a cabinet from scratch or get a blueprint of a cabinet design and get a CnC. Your way was definitely cheaper and easier. are you really satisfied with the cabinets now after the work you put in?
Yes, but of course building a cabinet from scratch is better, as you can build it specifically for the drivers you are using. Here I'm just trying to "fix" the issues with the cabinets, which would not exist if the cabinet was built correctly in the first place.
Nice project! I highly recommend you to get some low impedance bass drivers so you can extract all the POWER from the class D amps. Then you can also go for drivers with low Fs (resonance freq of like 27Hz) and big excursion for that sub bass. I think the Qts can be sligtly less than the box needs since you can force it with DSP so it still will sound tight and fast.
It's a good idea to get modern bass drivers - In a subwoofer! The orignal drivers will give great midbass, because they are light and large and are correctly tuned for the cabinet.
I've been contemplating getting the Dayton Audio Reference RSS265HO-44, but I still need to research and doublecheck a couple of things before I decide to order them.
@@seraphin_creates Adding subs to these might indeed also give nice results. Not quite sure what I'll do yet.
My initial thoughts were that a heavy modern driver will have a different sound character to that delicate midrange. It could also create objectionable box resonance. Original maybe 40-50g moving mass vs 160g for the Dayton. But these are just guesses according to my "vintage goood" bias. For your studio a modern woofer might give you what you need.
@impuls60 might know more about this stuff than me actually, I realised after checking out the channel. Also I didn't mean any disrespect with the cheeky wording 😇
@@seraphin_creates Interesting take, didn't realize that there would be that much difference in the moving mass, that might indeed have some concequences.. thanks!
Good job sir
Thanks!
Absolute great video!!!!
Thanks! Thank you for watching!
Nice video, make more of this stuff
Thanks, I probably will!
Verry interesting vid, definitly no my area (just like wrting script hihi). i'm hoping to find the right info to repair one of my tascam monitors. Whenever i put the power on i hear like 1 or 2 seconds of sound and thn nothing any more. Have no clue at all what that might be. Bless
Hmm not sure, could be the power supply, but I'm not sure.
About the noise: I dont htink its the Amps. I have the APM2 DSP module (Same ADAU1701 DSP chip), and that has high noise. So I suspect that it is the DSPs or the power supplies.
It's possible, I should check with batteries to see if the issue persists. I found a lot of posts on reddit and some forums that did say it's the amp itself though.
erg leuk dat je dit probeerd. ik heb ook wat oudere b&w speakers waarbij ik de crossover vernieuw. oude condensators worden gewoon slecht.
door de dsp heb je deze stap overgeslagen. wel bijzonder dat je de crossover punten hebt kunnen verlagen
Leuk project, veel succes ermee!
En ja, had ik ook niet verwacht. Van de tweeter wel, omdat die nog redelijk laag kon gaan, maar ik had niet verwacht dat de midrange zo laag zou kunnen gaan.
man, your first time opening speakers was a success.
There have been quite some frustrations along the way, but I'm happy with how they turned out!
Great work
Thanks!
Nice! Did you also take the directivity of the mid and (new) tweeter when deciding the crossover point?
Somewhat, yes. The vertical directivity was the worst (it was quite audible when moving my head up and down just a bit), and that is why I lowered the crossovers, which seemed to help quite a bit. As for the horizontal directivity, the tweeters do lose some air when moving too far away from the listening position, but for a studio monitor I do not really mind that. The sweet spot is large enough.
Since these are studio monitors, and I'm tuning them specifically to the room, what's heard on axis, at the listening position, is the most important for me.
I shortly worked for a "pro audio" brand that did less work than you did on their speakers and that they sell for a lot of money. Well done, very impressive!
Thanks! Crazy to hear that. Although I've heard some "pro" monitors that were unbearable to listen to, so I can't be too surprised, I guess?
Bitumen is also used in car sound deadening, such as Dynamat. I've actually used it in plastic speaker enclosures, with good results.
Yeah, the difference is remarkable! Not to mention the weight difference :')
Epic video. Thank you. Subbed
Thanks for watching and subscribing!
Nice mate! Cool project!
Thank you!
Muy bueno!!!
Gracias!
Now that you are considering a woofer, you can put in a Purifi woofer, Bliesma mid dome and Bliesma diamond tweeter :)
I guess someone has been watching PDP as well? :')
@@SirFreak yes I came across their video a while ago but they were only picking drivers at that stage . But recognised the speaker
Great vid! 👍
Thank you!
Also connect the ground wires to the power supplies. For me this reduced the noise significantly.
Thanks, good to know. I didn't connect any ground wires right now because the wall socket doesn't have a ground pin. So I might have to look to add one in the socket before I can do that. But I'll definitely make sure there's a proper ground connection when I put together the amp box
I skimmed the video for it, i apologize if you mentioned, but is your noise tweeter hiss? 120hz ripple, 120hz ground noise? or 60hz ripple? They all sound different, and tell a different story. Here's some oporational points you can probably work from to troubleshoot it. Very long post but i bet youll pull some useful info out of it. I( may be covering some things you did too, i watched this with a beer and bong in my hand lol. tweeter his is self explanatory. 120hz ripple is higher pitch then 60hz ripple, noticeably, but they are both a smooth low frequency hum. The 120hz ground noise is a much clicker, sharper sound with far more presence then the ripple because theres no filtration applied to it at source of the noise like with PSU ripple.
Depending on the type of noise you have differnt options moving forward... Hope this message helps!
I have a tpa3255 chip amp from amazon on my pc system that was a little hissy, and im running it from a fairly inexpensive switch mode power supply, much like what it looks like you used here. its 12v and im using a step up booster to bring it to 36v for the amp. I was able to get rid of pretty much ALL of the hiss by putting one of those 12v DC noise filters for car amplifiers between my 12v switching psu, and the step up converter.
There may be a chance your filtering inductors or capacitors may not be quite up to the challenge. Thats what i initially assumed about mine. But in my case the noise was HF originating from the switch mode PSU, not the amplifier, and the amplifiers filtering just wasnt catching it for some reason, likely a circuit topology design flaw (VERY common with chinese chip amps... VERY). Cheaper switch modes tend to have quite a lot of high frequency switching noise on the line. And often whether its a claimed feature to remove this or not, itll make it into your tweeters on this kind of chip amp. If it's more of a lower frequency hum your dealing with, id look at your PSU first again, and start testing for ripple currents in the DC coming into the amplifier. Anything over .5Mv ripple and youll likely hear it up close with these cheap chip[ amps in my experience. whether people want to admit it or not, some of these better chip amps (tpa3255 properly implemented specifically) are some of the most neutral, and least colored, transparent, and detailed amplifiers ive ever heard in my life. Noise can come through fairly easily in a non optimal setup, through non optimal circuit topologies including output filtering, or through non optimal DC power source.
If your dealing with power supply ripple, you may be able to help by changing raising, probably by 25-50% at least, the value of the large filtering caps in the power supply and with a good prand of low ripple low esr cap like nichicon or sanyo or something. But depending on the topology of the power supply this is still a crapshoot and you'd likely be playing and soldering around potentially dangerous amounts of current for little to no benefit. Noise from switching PSU's can be a real PITA sometimes. If its 60hz ripple not 120hz you may just have a janky IC or diode in th epsu leaking 60hz into the DC outputs, or it may just have an exceptionally noisy transformer causing excessive emi in which case... get a new psu, and make sure its better quality lol
If you've ever let this power supply sit active for time with no load, you may have also damaged an IC in it, and that could be the source of your noise too. thats a big no no with switch mode power supplies.
Unfortunately, that implementation of whichever chip you may be using, may just be noisy. Ive yet to hear a tda7492 chip amp that didnt tweeter hiss like a mother and let switching noise into the signal. Ive heard tpa3116 implementations that sound as good as 3255, and ive hear ones that sound worse then tda7492. Ive NEVER heard a noisy tpa3255 chip amp and ive heard a TON though. So if thats the chip you have, DEFINITELY start looking into your PSU step 1
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also. i did similar with an old set of Acoustic research series 660 studio monitors. New dayton audio woofers, new GRS ribbon tweeters, and original mid range stayed as it was surprisingly fantastic.
Designed crossovers in xsim and built them, tested, tweaked, rebuild, tested, tweaked rebuild. And i have a set of monitors out performing ANYTHING you can get for the under $400 i have into these things.
Floor to ceiling wall to wall soundstage, a revealing and detailed character im not so sure ive experienced before. They make a friends Klipsch rf towers seem like a pig painted up as a show pony. The only issue being a ever so slight hint of image smearing between far left and center channel thanks to my room being a little too small for the way the drivers are arranged on the baffle. Ideally theyd be about 7.5 feet apart and id be about 8 feet back from center point. Listening position is at about 7 feet back, theyre about 6 feet apart. I have been able to set them up in rooms big enough for the way they want to be positioned, and t's truly a thing of beauty. The modern sound+vintage look is a really sick combo if you do it right.
Im not suffering too much baffle diffraction thanks to how close the drivers are to the edge of the baffles, and because the baffles sit flush with the sides. I have to pay very close attention and listen at it hard for it to even be noticeable. My phasing is arrow flat til 9khz as well, and then its a slow, gradual dip at 45 degrees and barely hits 90 out of phase by 20k. My result far exceeded what i expected to get, and i changed my mind about giving them away to a friend too. They are going nowhere any time soon. Glad i never mentioned that plan to any friends yet.
I never implemented any DSP, but im +/-2db from 40hz to 26khz thanks to being crossed over at 60hz with a surprisingly fantastically performing GRS high excursion 12" sub and where my crossover design ended up. That sub was $55 and performs when measured in my space a tiny bit BETTER then the comparably sized 12" dayton HO reference sub response wise. It phase aligns with my dayton "classic woofer" a lot more nicely then the dayton ref did too (which honestly shocked me). I can even tell its doing anything at all when on, because it weaves so nicely into the sound stage. But when its turned off, there go the meat and potatoes.
I may actually try one of the $30 grs woofers in the simulators, id think its pair even more nicely then the dayton woofer, and in the band i want it to perform, their graphs are even flatter then the daytons too. I just wrote their drivers off on price alone to begin with. The grs ribbon im using rn that was only $70 on sale though blows away many far, FAR more expensive dome type tweeters in every conceivable regard too. It takes a bog ole pop-a-squat on the dayton AMT and dome reference tweeters, i was trying to use first. thats for sure. Far easier to manipulate a crossover design for as well.
The amount of performance you can squeeze from $200 worth of drivers and the right sub-$200 amplifiers and some old goodwill boxes is absolutely insane if you put the time and effort in to do it right yourself.
Impressive project, and I totally agree about how much performance you can squeeze out of some hardware if you take the time and effort to do it right.
I'm not really hearing an electrical noise like a 60hz main hum or something similar. It's more a faint constant white noise, and can mostly be heard in the tweeter, and a little bit in the midrange when I hold my ear close to it. Since I have a lot of extra headroom on the amps for the tweeter and midrange, I might try adding an L-pad. If that does not stop the noise, I might perhaps give modifying the power supply or getting another power supply a chance. Thanks for the tips, might come in handy.
Thats going to either be high frequency chip switching noise from the psu, or from the 3255 chips themselves that the output filtering on the amp isnt catching. A dc noise filter helped my cheap chip amps tweeter hiss, probably cut it nearly in half db wise. I have to stick my ear within a couple inches of the tweeter and crank the power amp to really pick it out over background noise now. Power supply noise does indeed make it through many of these chip amp filters.
You could try adjusting output inductor and capacitor values if your decent with a soldering iron. Theyre large easily de soldered and re soldered parts. Tin a perfect world, the high frequency hiss SHOULD be getting filtered out by the inductor/capacitor circuits on the output stage of the amp, whether the switching noise is from psu or the chips... Thats what the output filter is for specifically.@@SirFreak
Even the fosi V3 and za3 have some tweeter hiss if you turn them up loud and cut the signal. a dc line filter does absolutely nothing for them either. But even when music is cranked and paused, and you get up on the tweeter, there is very noticeable hiss.
At least you didnt go with tda7492. Those chips hiss through any filters and you can hear it at any distance running from ANYTHING besides a high quality toroid that cost more then the amplifier lol. And even then you can still hear it from like 5-6 feet away with any real volume
The existing 10" woofer can be tuned lower via adding some cone mass, e.g. some Blu-Tack around the dust cap vent hole (the Thiele-Small equivalent is to add parallel capacitance across the driver coil) and the existing enclosure can be tuned c. 10% lower via stuffing the cabinet with speaker wool.
You'd be changing the older "warm" c. 100Hz resonance to a more "punchy" modern sound that may better suit your music genre.
High-end English speakers of yore were similarly tuned via gluing washers behind the dust cap! :)
Interesting, definitely stuff I will experiment with!
@@SirFreak Experienced speaker builder's example here: ruclips.net/video/Cko7eVet9Ec/видео.html
Nice work, I'm sure you improved on those retro units with your modifications. I remember the cabinets of many Japanese speakers (well, most speakers really) from that time were very lightweight. I have played with some cheap Chinese eBay Class D amps and I've been really impressed with them. Lots of bank for the buck.
Quite impressive amps for the price indeed. The only downside on these was that little bit of hiss.
@SirFreak where did you get your amp , your , drivers, tweeters, and amp from online?
I got most of the materials from SoundImports and Audiophonics. In the US you might want to use parts-express.
I probably forgot a few things, but these should be the most important:
- HiVi RT1.3WE Isodynamic Planar Tweeter
- Neutrik NL8MDXX-V-BAG speakON 8p
- Neutrik NL8FC
- MOGAMI W2919 Speaker cable OFC Copper
- PINTA AMORTSONBi10A PHD Self-adhesive bitumen backing
- PINTA RESOBSON FU1220 Self-Adhesive Fabric Felt Damping
- SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V
- WONDOM AA-JA11117 Functional Cable Package for JAB3+ / JAB4 /
JAB5 Boards
- WONDOM ICP5 Programmer
- WONDOM JAB5 AA-JA33286 Amplifier Module
- Shrinkwrap
- Wire for connecting to the power grid
Hope that helps!
for sure a new bass driver and maybe try to par a sub with them but by the looks of it you dont want to do that. would love to see another vid on these speakers👍
I'm still contemplating wether I'd want to add a pair of subs or not. Perhaps building subs myself might also be an idea. We'll see. More videos on these speakers will definitely come.
you have any suggestions how to build amplifiler in class D 2x100 or 2x120W witch be capable of powering 8ohm or 4ohm speakers, or how power class D amplifiler, i already have 2x120W amplifiler at TPA3116D2, but i having issues with powering it, i feel like i can't get more than 2x70W with clear audio, and it lack's bass so after adding bass it's like 2x60W not 120
Is the input signal loud enough? That might be a reason you're not getting the full power out of your amp.
Depending on the sensitivity of the driver, 120w might also be a little low for a bass driver?
Where did you find the felt with the adhesive?
On a french website called Audiophonics:
- PINTA RESOBSON FU1220 Self-Adhesive Fabric Felt Damping
Hope that helps! Happy xmas!
Merry Christmas to you too!
@@SirFreaki did find the site. Thank you
good job!
Thanks!
Could you drop a link to the power supply and amp you used please?
Got most of the materials from SoundImports and Audiophonics. In the US you might want to use parts-express.
Power supply:
- SMPS300RS Switching Power Supply Module 300W / 36V
Amp:
- WONDOM AA-JA11117 Functional Cable Package for JAB3+ / JAB4 /
JAB5 Boards
- WONDOM ICP5 Programmer (needed for connecting them to the PC)
- WONDOM JAB5 AA-JA33286 Amplifier Module
Hope that helps!
Here is how my friend dealt with the problem. He earned his electrical engineering degree and moved to SLC, UT to work for Harmon Kardon as a digital signal processing engineer. Harmon and JBL merged giving Ryan access to speakers and amps for little money. Ryan uses 8) Crown Pro amps each bridged for single channel operation. His system is 4-way with separate cabinet for each driver, separate amp for each driver. Each amp is over 1300 watts. Each amp has custom band pass filter for each driver. Result is seamless audio spectrum from whisper to explosion.
JBL shut Harmon down so Ryan now does same job for Atlas Audio. Very impressive system!!!
Parts-express used to sell Dynaudio drivers & diy plans for complete speakers. Madisound is also a good source for drivers and cross-over parts. My system is PrimaLuna vacuum tube based. Speakers are now JBL 4425 studio monitors. I also have 2) Crowns XLS & XLi 1500 series. XLS is class D & XLi is class AB.
Great job!
Thank you Dave!
was the fan problem? finally how would you compare it to ready made product?
@@manitsony6703 the fan does indeed make some noise. The mid to high bands sound much better than a typical studio monitor. The bass/sub was not bad, but was not great either. In the meantime I replaced the bass driver as well. A video about that will be dropping later.
@@SirFreak interesting.. these are xlr inputs? I did buy external dsp speaker processors but it was a cheap one from Toman... Immediately when I plug my cable inside I felt the degradation of the sound is it because of the dac on dsp??
@@manitsony6703 Could be a bad dac/adc, or it could be that the adc is clipping (happens with the boards I used when the level is too hot). Sadly, these are not XLR. I could put an XLR input board in front of these, but the cable from my DAC to these boards is so short I notice no degradation in sound. More expensive amps like Icepower and Hypex would be better though, and those usually have XLR inputs. But they will be way more expensive, so that's a decision you need to make for the speakers you are working on. The amps I used are in no way perfect, but with some modifications I did (keep an eye out for that in an upcoming video) I did reduce some issues like that noise.
@@SirFreak please please waiting for your next video. anywhere i can personally chat to you?
and comapring to your hs yamaha is it much better? how much better would you give score?
3:48 You clean out the corrosion, spray Inox3 or similar penetrant/protector and you can unwind the voice coil a single half turn on each wire to re-wire it if it's broken at the leads. You most certain *can* repair it.
Is it worth it? Probably not.
Good to know! I still have the old ones laying around here. But I probably won't put them back, I'm quite happy with the new tweeters.
@@SirFreak the new ones are better aside from maybe higher crossover required. Those originals wouldn't be worth much given these pioneers aren't exactly like Yamaha ns1000