I’ve done many prebuys in my 45 year A&P career. It starts with a thorough research of the log books. I take a legal pad and read every log entry. Any major repairs or part replacement I note with date, time and what was done. I don’t record every oil change or wheel bearings or brake pads. In older airplanes have the hoses aft of the fire wall ever been changed? I note any alterations again time, date, and what. Was a 337 filed for the alteration? The ADs are very important there should be a list. One time or recurring. When done and how done. AD complied with is a useless entry . It needs to specify what and how. For recurring it should tell when due again. A list of 337s is available from the FAA Oklahoma office for each certified airplane by serial number. A boroscope inspection of the cylinders and valves is easily done thru the spark plug holes. Opening the oil filter to look for metal is usually done. But how many hours since install is it. A salesman may change it and not make a log entry. Are there any obvious repairs to control surfaces that are not documented. If the airplane was painted were the control surfaces removed and balanced. If the interior was redone were fire rated materials used. And a good look for corrosion is important fixing it gets expensive fast. The log search can be done by the buyer but interpretation needs experience.
John is a very knowledgeable mechanic, he has nailed it spot on, I have done dozens of pre buys on several different types of aircraft. A proper pre buy inspection should actually take longer then an annual inspection, especially on an aircraft you have never seen before. It can take hours reading through old technical records. It all comes down to what the buyer wants and how much money they want to spend. Sure a pre buy can be done in a day, but it’s up to the buyer on how much risk they want to take on their investment. Their needs to be some questions asked to the buyer and the seller and a good game plan put in place before a pre buy is started, everyone needs to be on the same page or it can go south really quick. You need to start on the paperwork, you can tell pretty quick on the aircrafts condition just based on records alone. And based on what the buyers expectations on the inspection are will determine the extent of what is looked at on the airplane.
I guess I do this a little backwards. I start on the Acft itself. No matter what the records indicate an overall check of basic Aircraft tells me if I want to spend more time on the "candidate" as the records are more time consuming. I have had many a 5-minute to 1/2 hour pre-purchase based on what the potential buyer expected and the condition of the Airframe presented. In those situations I charge the hourly rate and dismiss the pre-buy before it ever starts. Saves everyone a lot of aggravation in the end.
Great video you two. I read an occasional Savvy bit on pre buys, both acceptable and unacceptable results. Very interesting stuff, just as your guest explained.👍🏽👍🏽
Very good, thanks. This is a very big topic to try to cover in one episode but you did a good job covering the high points. I would emphasize what John said about finding an IA who is very familiar with your make and model. Someone who has seen where the failures most often occur. The comments below about the importance of logbook scrutiny are very important. One thing to consider is how many different mechanics have worked on this airplane? Has anyone seen it enough to become familiar with it or has it been seen by a different A&P every year or two. How many times has it changed owners? Has it been used for training? What areas of the country has it lived in? Some of these things should be considered before even getting to the point of a pre-buy. Another helpful resource is type clubs. The folks in those clubs can suggest areas of that make and model to be sure to check, and they can suggest an expert who you should consider to do your pre-buy. I'm a proponent of spending the money to get a really good, thorough pre-buy. If it turns out not to be good, it's better to know. If it turns out to be good, it's money well spent for the confidence in your new plane.
I am looking at purchasing a Bonanza in the near future. The ABS (American Bonanza Society) has folks around the country that do pre buys on Bonanzas. So if you do not know anyone that would be a good source. I imagine Cessna and Piper has similar groups you can contact...
See my previous comment to EH. SAVVY tries to set a format one-size fits all standard for every Aircraft model. You are still limited to the individual that performs the evaluations expertise. I have been hired by SAVVY as well but when one is familiar with the model you can do a preliminary evaluation of the expected findings for that particular model Aircraft. Many times I have rejected a pre-purchase in less than a 1/2 hour during a preliminary walk-around. This is why I feel a relationship with the potential buyer is such a critical step. Take a 500 hr T182T as an example that shows up with faded paint or sub-standard touch-up details, poor interior and light hail damage that is listed as 10 out of 10 condition. No need to even bring it inside for a closer look before a phone call to the buyer to see if they want to continue prior to any negotiations or the evaluation process. Compare that to a TR182 and you open a 1/2 dozen panels to look for known weak points be it structural or expensive components. Why go into phase one or two of a "checklist" when known weak points are going to be discovered? These weak areas are varied with every different Aircraft Model so there is no way to standardize a step by step evaluation. Items like a new Avionics package only to find improper installation standards throughout are an immediate deal killer. Every model and every upgrade varies on what and where to look during a preliminary evaluation before going deeper.
Interesting subject set in an interesting used aircraft market. I made a full cash offer on a plane but was outbid by someone who offered above the asking price and waived a prebuy! Similar experience on another a few weeks later. I eventually prevailed but what a journey. Thanks for putting this together.
The parallels between a aircraft pre buy and a pre purchase home inspection are uncanny...I'm a contractor and I am constantly repairing and addressing items either ignored or just not investigated thoroughly by some "home inspector " ...like aircraft pre buy guys the lack of regulation and or licensing often leaves a buyer with a hefty bill later on
I have never purchased a pre-owned airplane, but a friend purchased two with little to no pre-buy. In both cases he was seriously burned (no surprise). Of course, before he knew about the problems - he has already spent a pile of money on upgrades that outclassed the condition of the airframes and engine. Educated guess the losses were measured in many hundreds of thousands which could have been avoided by spending a few $k on good inspections.
A lot of this is common sense. When it comes to a major financial investment it is always better to look closely ( mental-theoretical-practical) aspects of the investment ever before you get emotionally attached. Emotions tend to cloud judgement quickly. John seems to be a level headed guy with a lot of wisdon.
Have to say I'm starting to be discouraged with aviation community in my area .I am in process of buying an aircraft and so far 2 of the the sellers backed down from selling their plane to me once I mentioned I would be getting a prebuy inspection done on their plane. What's up with that?! I am starting to see how sellers don't even trust what they are selling. Aircrafts are machines with people's lives at stake for god's sake not some car.
If I and/or my family or friends would rely on an aircraft, I certenly will spend some intelligent money to do some thorough research on what i´m buying. It´s like buying a nice woodden build house almost eaten by thermites just because it´s well painted and full of nice furniture. I´m buying myselve a huge problem. My and others lives are deppending on that desition. As always, cheers from NE Patagonia, Argentina. BTW: in aviation, safety comes FIRST!
That's actually more scarry than I thought. I was under the impression if a plane had a recent annual and has a reasonable amount of time until major overhaul you were fairly safe. I guess that's not even close to the truth.
I am at the point of just starting my training and wondering if buying a plane to train in is wise vs. renting. I am thinking that just as “Get-there-itis” must be avoided, “Need-to-buy-a-plane-itis” is almost as bad.
I would remove all emotion and look at mission needed and best way to fulfill mission. If you’re going to fly a few times a year for a $100 hamburger, rent probably best. If you’re looking for a way to get there for business (like me) and fly 200+ hours a year- then buy.
Will looking at the age of the aircraft and it's major components be a predictor of potential major problems immediately or "just down the road"? I see this as a key plus a look at the maintenance records.
Every aircraft owner should be intimately familiar with the illustrated parts catalog and maintenance manual for their particular airplane and engine. This allows for an intelligent conversation between the mechanic and pilot. Troubleshooting is an art that is paramount in aviation ownership.
The older I get the more I like to adhere to the "KISS" mindset. Those experts in every area tend to know a little bit about everything. Currency on specific models is much like currency flying a particular brand & model Aircraft for a Pilot. It doesn't mean you cant fly different model Aircraft but proficiency is a key factor in how well you do it. ; )
Ever since I read your post about that Annual you had some 20-25+ years ago I have repeated those concerns to dozen's of new A&P's I trained. In addition, I personally look for this before any Aircraft leaves my facility ever since I read that post! Teaching new mechanics how to think like the Owner and their expectations is not necessarily anything related to what they ever learned in A&P school. It is all about those details big or small!
I'm in the process of buying a plane - this could not have been more timely! I'm having an issue finding a place that would agree to do a prebuy, seems like shops do not like to do prebuys because of liability and other factors. What advice do you have for that?
You took the right 1st step. Ask questions! You dont need to necessarily find the right "shop" but the right individual to do a pre-buy. I know several knowledgeable model specific individuals that travel to the Aircraft (I generally dont ever do this personally). That said, it depends upon Aircraft Model and the Aircraft history. With and old 172 it might not be worth the additional travel cost. A P210 or T210N you want someone familiar with that particular model as a 1st time Annual on a poor preliminary evaluation can set you back 30-50% or more of the initial investment purchase cost that is preventable. It is always difficult for me to tell a brand new Owner that the 1st time "Annual" due to repairs or Engine & hyd hose replacement is going to cost upwards of 60K on their new T210M they purchased 3-months prior.
I’ve done many prebuys in my 45 year A&P career. It starts with a thorough research of the log books. I take a legal pad and read every log entry. Any major repairs or part replacement I note with date, time and what was done. I don’t record every oil change or wheel bearings or brake pads. In older airplanes have the hoses aft of the fire wall ever been changed? I note any alterations again time, date, and what. Was a 337 filed for the alteration? The ADs are very important there should be a list. One time or recurring. When done and how done. AD complied with is a useless entry . It needs to specify what and how. For recurring it should tell when due again. A list of 337s is available from the FAA Oklahoma office for each certified airplane by serial number. A boroscope inspection of the cylinders and valves is easily done thru the spark plug holes. Opening the oil filter to look for metal is usually done. But how many hours since install is it. A salesman may change it and not make a log entry. Are there any obvious repairs to control surfaces that are not documented. If the airplane was painted were the control surfaces removed and balanced. If the interior was redone were fire rated materials used. And a good look for corrosion is important fixing it gets expensive fast. The log search can be done by the buyer but interpretation needs experience.
John is a very knowledgeable mechanic, he has nailed it spot on, I have done dozens of pre buys on several different types of aircraft. A proper pre buy inspection should actually take longer then an annual inspection, especially on an aircraft you have never seen before. It can take hours reading through old technical records. It all comes down to what the buyer wants and how much money they want to spend. Sure a pre buy can be done in a day, but it’s up to the buyer on how much risk they want to take on their investment. Their needs to be some questions asked to the buyer and the seller and a good game plan put in place before a pre buy is started, everyone needs to be on the same page or it can go south really quick. You need to start on the paperwork, you can tell pretty quick on the aircrafts condition just based on records alone. And based on what the buyers expectations on the inspection are will determine the extent of what is looked at on the airplane.
I guess I do this a little backwards. I start on the Acft itself. No matter what the records indicate an overall check of basic Aircraft tells me if I want to spend more time on the "candidate" as the records are more time consuming. I have had many a 5-minute to 1/2 hour pre-purchase based on what the potential buyer expected and the condition of the Airframe presented. In those situations I charge the hourly rate and dismiss the pre-buy before it ever starts. Saves everyone a lot of aggravation in the end.
Great video you two. I read an occasional Savvy bit on pre buys, both acceptable and unacceptable results. Very interesting stuff, just as your guest explained.👍🏽👍🏽
Excellent guest. I learn something every time John makes an appearance. ✈️😎👍
"I'd work on a Piper, if I worked on Pipers"
Very good, thanks. This is a very big topic to try to cover in one episode but you did a good job covering the high points. I would emphasize what John said about finding an IA who is very familiar with your make and model. Someone who has seen where the failures most often occur. The comments below about the importance of logbook scrutiny are very important. One thing to consider is how many different mechanics have worked on this airplane? Has anyone seen it enough to become familiar with it or has it been seen by a different A&P every year or two. How many times has it changed owners? Has it been used for training? What areas of the country has it lived in? Some of these things should be considered before even getting to the point of a pre-buy. Another helpful resource is type clubs. The folks in those clubs can suggest areas of that make and model to be sure to check, and they can suggest an expert who you should consider to do your pre-buy. I'm a proponent of spending the money to get a really good, thorough pre-buy. If it turns out not to be good, it's better to know. If it turns out to be good, it's money well spent for the confidence in your new plane.
I am looking at purchasing a Bonanza in the near future. The ABS (American Bonanza Society) has folks around the country that do pre buys on Bonanzas. So if you do not know anyone that would be a good source. I imagine Cessna and Piper has similar groups you can contact...
Always great info from the best guests you could possibly find here! 👍😎
Great episode Dan and Christy. Excellent information and advice. Thank you. Keep up the great work. 🤘🇺🇸🛩️
Firm believer in prebuy guidelines presented by SAVVY. Suggest you have them on your show.
See my previous comment to EH. SAVVY tries to set a format one-size fits all standard for every Aircraft model. You are still limited to the individual that performs the evaluations expertise. I have been hired by SAVVY as well but when one is familiar with the model you can do a preliminary evaluation of the expected findings for that particular model Aircraft. Many times I have rejected a pre-purchase in less than a 1/2 hour during a preliminary walk-around. This is why I feel a relationship with the potential buyer is such a critical step. Take a 500 hr T182T as an example that shows up with faded paint or sub-standard touch-up details, poor interior and light hail damage that is listed as 10 out of 10 condition. No need to even bring it inside for a closer look before a phone call to the buyer to see if they want to continue prior to any negotiations or the evaluation process. Compare that to a TR182 and you open a 1/2 dozen panels to look for known weak points be it structural or expensive components. Why go into phase one or two of a "checklist" when known weak points are going to be discovered? These weak areas are varied with every different Aircraft Model so there is no way to standardize a step by step evaluation. Items like a new Avionics package only to find improper installation standards throughout are an immediate deal killer. Every model and every upgrade varies on what and where to look during a preliminary evaluation before going deeper.
@@cessnarigging great info ! thank you
Interesting subject set in an interesting used aircraft market. I made a full cash offer on a plane but was outbid by someone who offered above the asking price and waived a prebuy! Similar experience on another a few weeks later. I eventually prevailed but what a journey. Thanks for putting this together.
Waiving inspection seems risky.
yeah it's amazing how many people willing to buy without inspection and also how many sellers seem put-off by having to put thier plane through it!
The parallels between a aircraft pre buy and a pre purchase home inspection are uncanny...I'm a contractor and I am constantly repairing and addressing items either ignored or just not investigated thoroughly by some "home inspector " ...like aircraft pre buy guys the lack of regulation and or licensing often leaves a buyer with a hefty bill later on
I have never purchased a pre-owned airplane, but a friend purchased two with little to no pre-buy. In both cases he was seriously burned (no surprise). Of course, before he knew about the problems - he has already spent a pile of money on upgrades that outclassed the condition of the airframes and engine.
Educated guess the losses were measured in many hundreds of thousands which could have been avoided by spending a few $k on good inspections.
Pre buy is the best aviation money ever spent. Expert document check matters as well. In California, call Jake at Jake’s Air Repair.
A lot of this is common sense. When it comes to a major financial investment it is always better to look closely ( mental-theoretical-practical) aspects of the investment ever before you get emotionally attached. Emotions tend to cloud judgement quickly. John seems to be a level headed guy with a lot of wisdon.
That was all pretty much spot-on info.
Talking about the condition of an airplane have you seen or heard of Jimmy’s World RUclips channel? A new and different angle about aviation.
I did, and the man is beautifully crazy. He defiets all logics but seems to get away with it. I love his madness. Cheers from NE Patagonia, Argentina.
Jimmy is awesome
Excellent video. Thx!
Always amazed how some aircraft owners will buy a plane sight unseen, no prebuy and to see how their jaw drops at the first annual bill.
Have to say I'm starting to be discouraged with aviation community in my area .I am in process of buying an aircraft and so far 2 of the the sellers backed down from selling their plane to me once I mentioned I would be getting a prebuy inspection done on their plane. What's up with that?! I am starting to see how sellers don't even trust what they are selling. Aircrafts are machines with people's lives at stake for god's sake not some car.
If I and/or my family or friends would rely on an aircraft, I certenly will spend some intelligent money to do some thorough research on what i´m buying. It´s like buying a nice woodden build house almost eaten by thermites just because it´s well painted and full of nice furniture. I´m buying myselve a huge problem. My and others lives are deppending on that desition. As always, cheers from NE Patagonia, Argentina. BTW: in aviation, safety comes FIRST!
That's actually more scarry than I thought. I was under the impression if a plane had a recent annual and has a reasonable amount of time until major overhaul you were fairly safe. I guess that's not even close to the truth.
I am at the point of just starting my training and wondering if buying a plane to train in is wise vs. renting. I am thinking that just as “Get-there-itis” must be avoided, “Need-to-buy-a-plane-itis” is almost as bad.
I would remove all emotion and look at mission needed and best way to fulfill mission. If you’re going to fly a few times a year for a $100 hamburger, rent probably best. If you’re looking for a way to get there for business (like me) and fly 200+ hours a year- then buy.
@@TakingOff probably renting while the mission is being defined would be wise as well.
Where can I get those sectional chart leggings?
… and are they current?
Will looking at the age of the aircraft and it's major components be a predictor of potential major problems immediately or "just down the road"? I see this as a key plus a look at the maintenance records.
Pre buys can get ugly real fast. Do your homework.
Where do you go to find someone to do a pretty for you?
Every aircraft owner should be intimately familiar with the illustrated parts catalog and maintenance manual for their particular airplane and engine. This allows for an intelligent conversation between the mechanic and pilot. Troubleshooting is an art that is paramount in aviation ownership.
Why would he not work on a piper even if he worked on pipers?
The older I get the more I like to adhere to the "KISS" mindset. Those experts in every area tend to know a little bit about everything. Currency on specific models is much like currency flying a particular brand & model Aircraft for a Pilot. It doesn't mean you cant fly different model Aircraft but proficiency is a key factor in how well you do it. ; )
Trim those carpet threads John.
Ever since I read your post about that Annual you had some 20-25+ years ago I have repeated those concerns to dozen's of new A&P's I trained. In addition, I personally look for this before any Aircraft leaves my facility ever since I read that post! Teaching new mechanics how to think like the Owner and their expectations is not necessarily anything related to what they ever learned in A&P school. It is all about those details big or small!
Boom!
Hey ask John if he knows the Duck ? From Cessna Pilots Society….
I'm in the process of buying a plane - this could not have been more timely!
I'm having an issue finding a place that would agree to do a prebuy, seems like shops do not like to do prebuys because of liability and other factors. What advice do you have for that?
You took the right 1st step. Ask questions! You dont need to necessarily find the right "shop" but the right individual to do a pre-buy. I know several knowledgeable model specific individuals that travel to the Aircraft (I generally dont ever do this personally). That said, it depends upon Aircraft Model and the Aircraft history. With and old 172 it might not be worth the additional travel cost. A P210 or T210N you want someone familiar with that particular model as a 1st time Annual on a poor preliminary evaluation can set you back 30-50% or more of the initial investment purchase cost that is preventable. It is always difficult for me to tell a brand new Owner that the 1st time "Annual" due to repairs or Engine & hyd hose replacement is going to cost upwards of 60K on their new T210M they purchased 3-months prior.
John is a treasure...too bad he is a Cessna guy and not a Maule or Belanca guy
NICE VIDEO . Let John know it is not cezzna but cessna. Hurts my ears every time he says it .LOL
Some things are just out of my control.... ; )
I would categorically disagree with most of this. Welcome to catch me offline to discuss if you'd be interested.
If it's airworthy, just buy it