I want to make this clear, I approached Toyota to do this project. And its extremely rare to get any major OEM to talk openly about how anything works. Yes there is corporare parts of this video because it takes executive level leadership to tackle projects like this that effect millions of cars. I myself nor Toyota never said what they are doing is best or better, its a dialogue about how and what goes into this and other brands face similar obstacles, namely in tech.
if you ever wake up feeling stupid, remember that a real company hired these real idiots and spent a stupid amount of money just to destroy their product and brand reputation
The paradox of American society is that people hate government involvement in their lives, yet willingly give private phone or car data to companies regulated by the same. Truly, what a time to be alive!
I actually can’t believe the access you got to Toyota executives, this is almost unparalleled in terms of what I’ve seen from RUclips content creators, I hope this piece puts SV over the top, what an incredibly bit of journalism.
I'm left with more questions than answers. I still don't understand why the manufacturers don't simplify the entire process - make it so their cars interface with an individual's tablet or smartphone - something they're already familiar with. When I heard the engineer say "As long you have that passion, technology can fix anything." Passion for what, exactly? This told me that, as with so many other industries, millions are spent designing 'solutions' that are usually addressing ever more complicated layers of 'solutions' on top of flawed "solutions" on top of yet earlier flawed 'solutions', instead of addressing the fundamental reason for existing in the first place. At its core, isn't infotainment really just a radio? or maybe HVAC controls? Well Done. Brilliant. A Triumph. A Masterpiece.
As far as I'm concerned, they already figured this shit out in the late 90s and early 00s where all the buttons and features you needed were at a finger's reach. They've uninvented the wheel and told us it's a step forward. Clown world.
@@JohnFromAccounting Yes, it's change for change's sake. I love my simple Nissan 370Z which has everything I can ever need, other than blind spot monitoring. A simple stereo upgrade and I have Android Auto.
I LOVE that you push the needle in your formula for your videos. It's this kind of art that helps articulate what you and Jack are doing vs just regular surface level car reviewers
I want piano black plastic on all my AutozoneTM Haptic Touch feedback panels with 100 brightness level screens that you can’t switch off. Just my taste.
When the designer started talking about moving heated and cooled seats into a digital interface all i could do was scream NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
@@macaron3141592653 The screen is big enough to have actual target areas that someone can press with squinting or losing *significant focus (there will always be distraction). These shitty low refresh rate screens in toyotas, subarus, hondas aint gonna cut it to have buttons be virtualized. Furthermore, the Tesla goal is to have the car most drive itself/assist the driver, so one can comfortably operate the screen. I would personally like to have knobs and buttons too, but they can feasibly present an actual virtualized UX with their OS/Screen
These videos are amazing. No one else does anything like this. May not get as many views right away, but this will be an amazing historical reference when looking back at what was going on during the shift to EVs.
I think that we are little farther out on EV’s for mass adoption than most. That stated, the how’s and why’s in this video are somewhat insightful and the fact that Mark them to do it, historical.
@@scottgabbard662 Charging times and range are much more important in the US than other countries, which raises the bar for the feasibility of EV mass adoption. Current battery/charging capabilities are a long way off for US mass adoption outside of local urban settings. Grid capacity requirements are going to be an issue for all countries. The only feasible solution I can see at the moment is nuclear. Many countries in Europe have closed a lot of their nuclear plants over the last decade or so. No idea how they are going to solve their energy needs. Solar and wind isn't going to cut it without massive energy storage solutions.
EV's are being forced upon the enthusiast drivers by globalists' design to reduce us to serfs and cancel our freedom. People who don't defend their freedoms don't deserve to keep them.
The "cognitive overload" talking point about buttons has been so detrimental to the modern era of car interior design. Having 40 buttons for climate controls and audio is no where near as overwhelming as trying to open and close menus on a touchscreen while driving quickly or on a bumpy road. Things like volume, climate controls, safety systems, and other simple functions do not need their UI's to be changed, and should not be on a touchscreen or touch button. This is simple, and never needs to be changed. Everything else is fair game. Easy. So much of the complexity in this conversation feels manufactured and artificial.
Car manufacturers are going after the same demographic who buy a new iPhone every year! I also never trust a car executive who wears dress shoes without socks. Sure, they'll only use my data for product improvements!
Yeah only in the past 3 years has airplanes sarted to go to Glass cockpits and away from hunderds of gauges and switchs. And it's only becuase it was to much... No modernhj car has to many of them like my 2020 Mustang Preuim has a big screen yes but also buttons and switch for nealy every thing so much so I almost never interact with it the buttons do that good of job.
yes, the guy was like its my job to get drivers off their phones to prevent crashes... bro, its easier for me to text and drive than use your dashboard interface u spent 100m on pretending you were apple.
@RandomInternet User I agree most of it is junk but that’s why apple CarPlay and android auto is awesome, it completely negates the bullshit software that the OEMs are putting in
Anyone who would cover the steering wheel with touch buttons is out of touch with their own brain. What's the point of a head up display when they've introduced a head down steering wheel?
Agreed. A air-gapped system or system that is not connected to any network is far more secure than a system that is connected to a network (Especially a Wireless Network). I do not want this in my Automobile. Automobile Theft and other issues are going to go through the roof when hackers or others break into the system and there is no more physical security (keyed engine start) anymore for example on Automobiles. No thank you. No Sale in regards to new vehicles with these Infotainment Systems.
At 39:00 he talks about getting drivers to not use their mobile phones while driving. That's great, but now, infotainment systems are responsible for a growing rate of crashes. They are just as distracting as mobile phones, perhaps more. It's a complete out-of-touch attitude to increase the influence of the infotainment system on the design of the car, and then claim they're most interested in safety. The data speaks for itself.
I don't think people realise just how much distance they are covering while driving blind in order to look at the screen. Multiple seconds are required for each action, especially if it's embedded in a menu. If something were to happen ahead, it can be the difference between gentle braking and a hard crash.
SG's video on the Tesla 3 covers one of them, but you could just lookup infotainment related crash statistics or touchscreen related crash statistics and there's quite a bit out there
All this complicated tech makes me value my '95 300ZX even more. The two buttons pods on the sides of the gauge cluster are absolutely wonderful. Headlights, fog lights, front and rear wipers, dimmer switch, cruise control on/off, all HVAC controls, and defrosters are within 6" of your fingertips without cluttering anything or being distracting.
@@povertyspec9651 this has me thinking, I wish there was some way to objectively measure the quality of ergonomics in a car. I wanna know what other cars would score very high
I haven't driven the ZX but I am certainly grateful my 370Z has such an 'outdated' interface. The touch screen is predictably slow and unresponsive and the maps have never been updated (because it costs like $200) but everything else is familiar and easy to use. Why this obsession with being able to reprogram UIs and update everything all the time? Is that really what drivers want?
@@dielaughing73 Car manufacturers keep saying its what people are asking for but ive never actually met someone who wants this stuff. The few that do, go figure, drive electrics.
As an early 80s kid, it's so interesting to have watched countless hours of sci-fi television and movies demonstrating all the inherent flaws and dangers of certain technologies/inventions..... Then, growing up, to have all these technologies/inventions become reality...and all that cinema being proven correct along the way...crazy. Hackable vehicles and government tracking/disabling...all for a better radio. I dunno, it seems like liberties being trades for conveniences. RIP right to repair
Oh dude im an early 90's kid and weve watched the same shit happen. Thank god for base model vehicles but even thats prolly not gonna last. Wont matter regardless as unless ur born with an understanding of info tech, good luck finding a job that pays enough to allow u to afford anything.
Whatever we live and portray adds it to the mix. Warning, documenting, discussing, examining, those are all processes of documenting, of historical record, not of creating. Fear-driven people, i.e. the mindslave majority or corrupt masses, watch a movie about a dystopian future and start considering that possible reality and then hurry to prepare for it, thereby manifesting it.
The best option is not to buy it, just get a old car from the 90s that is 20 times cheaper and fix the rust...and it will last forever, until the gov will tell you that you cant drive it on the road because "iT BUrNs To MUch FUel" even tho it burns like 7l/100km, like they did in Europe in many countries because they only look at the year the car was made....So now I have to scrap my perfectly fine car that burs 7l/100km and buy a newer car that constantly falls apart and burns more fuel because "iTs MoRe eCo"
At 16 minutes he justifies putting heated seat controls in the screen by saying you only use it occasionally. While this is true, I still want to be able to operate it while driving!! When will these designers get it into their heads that multiple seconds looking down at a screen while driving is unsafe in any case?!
that is a load of shit....thsi is why i FIRMLY believe there should be 100% different developing departments for u.s.a and canada....in winter the heated seats are used nearly 6-7 months out of the year....
@@Fra-gee-lay I'd go further and say something should only be on a screen if it can't be represented in any other way. And all screens should have an off switch.
His logic about how you only use those seat features during specific weather conditions is just flawed, all that really means is that heating/cooling should be part of the automated climate control suite, not that you can just bury it in the infotainment to find later. I use my heated seats far more than i use cruise control, yet car designers put 4 CC buttons and a toggle right on the steering wheel but think it's ok to hide the heated seats in a menu?
Once Mark said Toyota all as I could think about was subscription-based features you want to have a remote start for the cold winter day $9.95 a month... Nickel and dimimg the shit out of everything and everyone
Because it has an added costs of running all the tech infrastructure, support and development which you never asked for. Talking about cost savings, huh?
Sadly this will only become more prevalent. Just like blank buttons on lower trim levels of current cars, companies will just toggle whatever tech features on/off for different trims if you don't pay a subscription
I was kind of annoyed by the guy that claimed you don't use heated/cooled seats that often and they should be buried in the touchscreen abyss, but they completely lost me when they started talking about their subscription BS.
I LOATHE the 50 million thousand touch screens and digital instrument clusters in modern cars & absolutely LOVE from the bottom of my heart the simplicity & logic of the interior & the way i interact with my 20 year old 5 series
I love how they all talked about customer satisfaction as their primary goal. The primary goal of any publicly traded company is shareholder satisfaction.
Which only comes from customer satisfaction, unless you're only marginally better than alternatives. Then shareholders can be satisfied with dissatisfied customers!
If users have poor experiences with your product, your shareholders and stock will react accordingly. Same goes for safety, quality and reliability, etc. Also, this video is with the team and shareholders who own the user experience of the car, so it is literally their job to ensure customers have the best experience possible.
Top priorities of any company should be customer satisfaction, followed by employee satisfaction. Assuming revenue strategy is solid while maintaining those two priorities should always result in satisfied shareholders. Where companies fall into trouble is when they prioritize maximizing profits over those two things.
@@realbigtuna667 there's a balance though. The best way to satisfy customers is to give them exactly the product they want, fully customized for every individual, for free. Obviously that's not sustainable. Running a business has to be sustainable.
Whoever is responsible for the bigger screen in the center stack of the new Venza, whoever is responsible for the Lexus touch pad, they all need to be replaced.
Call me crazy, but for me it's this simple: will I want/need to do it while driving, or every single time I start the car? If so, I want it on a physical control. And let's be clear: 'cognitive overload' doesn't happen because "too many controls", it happens because "not enough differentiation between controls." When every button is the same size, in a long row, and all icons are tiny and look same-ish... no bueno. Intelligent layouts, sizing, spacing, shapes, colors... we can process very complex systems easily, IF they're designed and laid out ergonomically. /end rant
2020 Lexus UX250h here. The audio controls are truly horrible. We loved the simplicity of our 2012 Prius. This new vehicle is a step backward, except for Apple Car Play, which is fantastic.
I just want replaceable head units so the tech doesn’t make the vehicle feel dated after two years. Of course, I also won’t give up my V8 Lexus until they pry it from my cold dead hands.
A car that is dependent on internet access for cloud computing is not going to be much use in the huge portion of the planet without any internet service. I know that's not where most people live, but they do need to drive through these areas. This whole thing, especially the dependence on touch interfaces and the loss of physical controls, is a massive step backwards in terms of usability.
Id say thats actually where most people live. These companies only care about people who have 45,000 USD, on average, to buy a new car though. "most" people buy used and have barely passable internet connections.
No Sale, I do not want this in my Vehicle at all. Give me a basic reliable Automobile. The more bells and whistles in a system or Automobile the more there is to break and the more vulnerable the vehicle is to software, data privacy, and hacking issues. No thank you. As long as this trend in Automotive design continues No Sale.
Great video, Mark! We bought a Venza last year, and purposely went for the XLE rather than the Limited because of the full haptic controls on the Limited. The XLE is much easier to operate on the move. I hate looking away from the road while driving (we live in the most densely populated state), and any control that doesn't become mostly muscle memory will be ignored while driving. I like the idea of connecting profiles to users' phones. Even better, allow users to set up all their preferences on the phone at any time, then apply the settings when they connect to the car. This is what bike computers such as the Wahoo Elemnt do now - no fiddling around on tiny head units, just set everything in the app and it's done.
So here is the real reason these researches are being done. Make the lower level cars harder to control and then convince you to spend more and buy more optioned cars. I mean it was just fine when it was all analog.
@@jmat7103 If you're referring to David Mulligan getting the XLE instead of the Limited with your "Make the lower level cars harder to control and then convince you to spend more and buy more optioned cars." comment, then you are incorrect. The XLE trim is a LOWER level than the Limited. Hyundai did the same thing with the Tucson if I recall correctly. So they're making their higher level cars harder to control.
@@jmat7103 I agree, it is kind of sucky and is honestly keeping me away from a lot of cars. I'm worried that at some point they will all go the haptic path though and then I cannot get away from it.
@@jmat7103 Yeah, the XLE is the mid-level trim, with the Limited being the top trim. For '21, the XLE had heated/cooled seats and a heated steering wheel (with the Softex package), and those were the most important options for my wife. I watched review of the Limited with the haptic controls and I knew she'd hate it.
Nothing Dan Hall said makes a damn bit of sense to me. Physical button overload? Maybe in a Pagani Zonda, not in a Camry. I don't think the manufacturers were moving buttons and knobs to illogical locations until after infotainment showed up and screwed with traditional setups. At least I now have the manufacturers' perspective, after watching this quality video, why they keep making products I don't want to buy.
I feel like alot of non-enthusiast and tech sectors in the automotive industry dont value the desire for simplification. At least giving customers the option to "de-techify" thier cars would be great
I just don’t think those people buy new $40k+ SUVs which is the hot market right now. It’s clear to manufacturers that they can charge a premium for electronic gadgets. I just don’t think there’s enough money to be made in the “de-tech” crowd to be worth it.
@@connellyboyle1 that’s because the detect crowd never spends the money. I had got damn fully loaded Dodge Charger j bought with 9k miles I bought in 2014. Blind spot, lane departure, the smart cruise, parking sensors front and back, heated/cooled seats, heated seats in the rear, back up camera, remote start, Nav, Harmen Kardon with 17 speakers or some shit plus the amp, heated/cooled cup holders, power seat all the way around . When that car was in a flood in June 2021 with 159k miles on it, the backup camera and Bluetooth was the only thing electronic that had ever malfunctioned. My point is , How “de-tech” do you want to get ? Why? My other point Look at Charger reliability ratings. They are terrible. But that damn Charger was one of my best and I had many. So if the fear is it is going to mess up maybe it will. That’s why I always buy something with performance upgrades like LSD, Bigger engines, adaptive suspension, transmissions, gear ratios, that shit and the and safety autonomous is really what holds value. So In 10 years if it does mess up, you will still have a buyer cuz people don’t SRT8, CTS Vs, C63s for the Nav and cooled seats.
@@connellyboyle1 You know if you haven’t experienced this high tech stuff for self you may actually love it. And I don’t mean experience it on a test drive, I mean like experience while you do the things you do every day. and really nowadays Nav, blind spot, heated cooled seats etc is “de-tech” I have driven THOUSANDS of cars I can only think of once where the basic luxury features like I listed above did not work. I was in the automotive industry for 8 years until recently. All of it except the early days I was at the #1 dealership in my state. #1 and it wasn’t close. Even as a salesmen, before I had my own department, or a finance manger I was able to get a demo and I always chose used. As much business as we did thousands is probably conservative. My point is you are missing out on some good cars wanting “de-tech” cuz you don’t want to learn or cuz you think they will fuck up.
Personal case-study. I purposely went from a 2012 Volvo with a screen-based UI interface to a 2010 without it. My parents have a 2022 Volvo with everything tech-based that the car offers, and man, its a lot to navigate. I am vastly happier stepping backwards to a more analog experience where I focus on, and enjoy more - the driving experience. I'm 35, and have all the electronics I need in my iPhone, ipad etc, but for my car, I feel that we are getting way too distracted by systems we do not need while operating heavy machinery. Nice to have for some, cumbersome and dangerous for others. That middle ground is tough to achieve for sure...Maybe when it gets simplified and basic features are not layered in distractions to access, I will be more inclined. Makes me enjoy my older cars so much when you see what we "didn't" have for so long, and were just fine.
@@mhirst16 I went to a 2010 S40 which has basically no screen and the cleanest dash design in modern automobiles, my 2012 Cross country was awesome but you could tell Volvo had to do a lot of re-designing to get the screen integrated into a dash that was not designed for it when the car started its life. Interface was fine, but I love the uncluttered nature of the dashboard for this reason.
@@joelbolton7252 I think this happened to a lot of manufacturers...there was a time in recent makes and models, (looking at you Audi) where in cars like the A3, the screen is just stuck to the top of the dash, it looks like an iPad was taped on there like an afterthough...just horrible. Finally carmakers are starting to realize that looks like shit, and are at least building the dash design around the screen instead of the other way around.
The more I watched this video... The more I realized that this is not about the future of cars but is about a giant leap backwards for cars. So they want to collect data and make things more complicated and then come around to get more from your wallet, get you stuck in a subscription "service" to do basic things that are/were free.
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough Managing the battery and the control of your electric motor requires so many digital components just by design, that by then you wouldn't be able to call that car analog anymore. There's no way to have a well functioning analog accelerator pedal in an electric car for example, which is a very essential component.
When you turn cars into a disposable A to B appliance without any expectations for emotive expression, this is what we get. Car manufacturers still can't grasp the concept that people aren't cyborgs(yet).
Unfortunately to the vast majority of people they have always been disposable A to B appliances, which leaves us enthusiasts with the short end of the stick
I disagree. We are already cyborgs. Our lives revolve around (for many people, at least) machinery and digital interfaces, virtual environments. Closed off worlds. Our cell phones are the most obvious example. Need to order food? Grab the phone and get on a food delivery app. Want to start your car? Grab the phone and start your remote app. At work: staring at screens for a huge part of the day. At home: staring at a screen while we eat, do other things, pray, cry, laugh, and so on. We are without a doubt a part of a living machine network.
I hope there is a pendulum response to all of this and we see at least a partial return to analog components. Seems unlikely, but this is why I bought my mustang with a manual and the trim level without the touchscreen and digital dash
I've been a computer junkie all my life...my first home computer was a VIC-20 I bought in 1983. I've parlayed that into a career in IT since 1986. I know full well what computers can, and more to the point, should do, and I am NOT an anti-tech kind of person. As soon as this guy said "technology can fix anything" I was done. Technology is a tool, and like any tool there's a time when it's the right choice for the job, and a time when it isn't. Anybody who thinks technology can solve every problem is delusional...sometimes it makes things appreciably worse...
Oh yeah, now some dude tels me that I don't need my cooled/heated seat button and it can be moved somewhere in the menus. This is all wrong with cars right now - my '11 m37 has a rotary for that and I can leave it on and it will stay that way after I start the car! 2011! And please, tell me how rarely I need to use that in Texas heat or Canada winters...
If you need to continue to reset you temp on your vehicles while driving then obviously your vehicle isn't doing what you need. You should have to set you cooled seats once and your temp once. Maybe an adjustment later but I live in Texas. Temp set to auto at 73. Seat set to cool at 3 or off. Frankly I don't interact with it alot. I drive 650 miles a week.
I don't agree regarding the touch screen being better for something like heated/cooled seats which are more seasonal because it's usually something I would turn on when the car is starting to run because it may either be very cold or hot initially. Then I would turn it off while driving because it would no longer be needed and in some cases could become too hot. Companies could create buttons which are customizable for things like this, and allow the user to set those buttons to do certain things in the screen. But really, I'm going to be against touch screens in cars for the most part. I understand some vehicles which have a LOT of options almost need to have some settings in a touch screen but why not allow it to be hidden while driving? Certainly it would improve driver safety. I'm pretty sure I've seen hidable displays in some Bentleys. I don't think it's a big cost to make a digital display hidable, but even instrument clusters are pretty much all digital these days.
Simple button to turn your heated seats on versus having to wait for your slow ass screen to start up, then navigate their stupid menu system to find the seat controls with your gloves off while it’s cold as shit
We're enthusiasts, so we know what we want in cars, and we're vocal about it. The problem is that there aren't enough of us, or that we don't buy when they come out with something that has the things we asked for. So cars end up going in a direction we don't want, because that way is more profitable.
People on this channel are enthusiasts, yes. how is the sports car market doing? Do you think we make up a majority of their real customers? We are a small portion and we very as some are tech and others are not, some like both.
I've been a long time fan of this channel. This is the best auto focused RUclips channel and the attention to detail, the editing the style of the videos, the aesthetic, its all just so good. So if you end up reading this comment, I just want you to know that you're doing a good job and I appreciate all of the work you put into making this.
This video displays some of the reasons I still can't let go of my 2006 Lexus GS300: - Screen for AC/heat, but it's one physical button, one screen button. 2 seconds to use, tops - cooled/heated seats, it's only a physical scrolling button. It's left on in the position you leave it in and goes to work immediately when you turn on your car. - I can TURN OFF the center console with one physical button and one screen button (especially good for latenight drives/roadtrips). Give me physical buttons for major select options, with an easy up-down modifications on the screen I can use while driving that I dont need to look at. Only screen interfaces? Not in this lifetime!
The people speaking from Toyota is an example of people that think they are more intelligent than they actually are. YOU don’t tell the customer what they want………we tell YOU !
The more you watch this, more ridiculous it gets. Now they talk about reducing the costs - how about NOT going for cloud and 24/7 connectivity? How about all the layers of related tech infrastructure you have to run, support and update that essentially is paid by us, customers?! Would there even be an option to have a non-connected car or it's now a must for me to pay for your garbage dev that makes experience worse? This is just BS.
Mark, this video is seriously impressive. I’ve been designing interfaces and products in tech for my entire career and can say you successfully covered the most important issues in a meaningful and logical way that others have not. Not even major tech news websites go to the depths you have. Wow.
For me, any control that involves touching a screen becomes non existent when the vehicle is in motion. But heres the thing that I don't hear talked about enough in the world of infotainments. Touch controls are fine to use for *passengers,* which means the *drivers* physical controls do *not* need to be near the screen. Steering wheel controls for things like volume and HVAC are amazing. My moms 2002, which has only physical controls mercury grand marquis has volume, "next" (for radio presets), fan speed and temperature all on the right side of the steering wheel. This was a 2002 design by ford and honestly it blows me away. We are used to holding a screen in our hands, wrapping our fingers around it and using our thumbs to control it. In my honest opinion, this is where drivers physical controls belong. It allows the companies to go full digital in the middle, with maybe a knob in the console for physical redundancy, while giving the driver what they need literally without having to take their hands off the wheels. Take infotainment controls off the wheel (like D pads and such) and just put volume/radio, hands free calling/voice assistant, and HVAC controls for the right hand. Left hand controls cruise control and the gauge cluster. For cars with dual zone climate, obviously just link the driver's climate to the wheel, keep the passenger exclusively touch. Then just have a little popup in the gauge cluster screen that reflects the changes being made by hitting the steering wheel buttons so that the driver can see what they are doing at a glance without having to take their eyes off the road to look at the main screen. It would take a little getting used to for a driver to just use the buttons under their fingers natively vs reaching over to the middle of the dash, but in the long term it would be beneficial.
Again another great video! From my point of view as a driver who enjoys a fun car and a reliable car, we are witnessing and end to the tem "simple car". When I hear the words: data collection, subscription, cloud, security and statistics, I feel like the future car will be just like our phone, constantly knowing what we do, where we are, bombarding the driver with new personalised adds and a need to replace it because of the obsolete hardware. I understand why Toyota is doing this. My biggest problem is when Tim Carroll says: "Think of the value of the data that can provide to companies and governments".
Yep -- the "helpful" example he gave (block by block weather for EMS) is essentially already available. He rubbed me the wrong way. Will courts decide vehicle info is protected to some degree? It's an open question -- phones need a search warrant to be opened, but the personal nature of phone use as opposed to the public nature of auto use (public roads, licensing required, etc.) could drive a less privacy-oriented outcome. Also, merely subpoenaing certain cell data is currently allowed -- hard to imagine travel records would get more protection than that. And don't forget the criminal element. It could be a stalker's wet dream to know about a victim's recent or current travel, and organized crime could benefit greatly from some of this info too.
We could have developed a v10 manual transmission sports car but the market research said people were most interested in watching tik toks and changing their ambient lighting on their MMI screen. This is the future we asked for. Anyways, thank you Mr Goose for the in depth video.
I couldn't get the manual v10, but does a manual flat 6 count? "Tech" includes power windows and 2 way adjustable seats, 1 way powered and 1 way manual. No sport mode or any buttons at all on the steering wheel.
I appreciate that you guys do segments like this. Great video. One man's opinion: customers that are interested in an automated carriage ride shouldn't be consulted on anything BUT an automated carriage. From a practical stance, technology integration in cars reached its peak with audio media and navigation integration. They wasted the opportunity to allow for all this tech to help the customer mechanically by bypassing the need for dealer diagnostics, and pretty much everything else they keep shoving in there is nonsense being "asked for" by people who grew up with cars that helped them reverse, park, change lanes, manage speed, and pay attention to other objects on the road. Now let's talk some objectivity. ANYTHING that pulls your eyes from the road is unsafe, and any discussion regarding a UI that promotes safety, while still requiring use of touch features or precision manipulation of controls is completely disingenuous. I'm glad they at least acknowledged the complete edge that manual controls have in this regard, but they're still doing what they're doing. The discussion regarding consumer security is also pretty laughable. These manufacturers can say whatever they want but the reality is that if they're using affiliate software (Google search engine, for example) aspects of your data will be sold to those software companies in order to offset licensing fees charged to the car manufacturer. You can add advertisements based on your driving habits to those based around browser activity and social media. Lastly, cost and environmental impact. Even if Toyota (or whomever) decides to absorb the increase in manufacturering cost with all the added tech and research that went into it, fixing a car is only going to get more costly the more they increase infotainment and tech integration. Add to that the reality of what goes into all this added and improved tech is only increasing negative environmental impact. The current direction of the automotive industry is pretty disheartening. I'm hoping the next 5 years or so sees more people pushing back somewhat, but I'm pretty sure that's a pipe dream as people are all to comfortable with being told they need these features, or being told that an EV loaded with tech is somehow "greener" than a straightforward combustion powered vehicle.
So ...using a digital interface for seat heating and cooling is for customer convenience, and not so these companies can lock that feature behind a subscription? ...Uh-huh.
This is a terrible, awful trend. Automotive companies lost the race for technology with phone companies. They simply can't compare in terms of UX/UI with Apple or Google. Why spend billions of dollars persuing some tech that you know is going to be behind the moment it releases, instead of just focusing on what you do best? Car infotainment systems should include just the basics: vehicle status, some basic settings and Android Auto and Apple Carplay as standard. That's it! Car companies should deliver good hardware: screens, buttons, audio systems and GTFO other parts of technology race, such as navigation and multimedia playback. They could finally stop pretending to know what they are doing and quit this nonsense, instead focusing on what they know how to do. This is so simple to fix and such an easy solution that it just boggles my mind why it isn't being done
Even better, all physical controls for the things that matter, and leave a space for an Apple or Android tablet to attach to the dash. That way they keep costs down and customers get more customisation over how they setup their vehicle.
I would disagree. On one hand, they should support and embrace CarPlay, Android Auto, etc, but they *need* to have a base system for things like temperature, safety systems, etc to operate and for users to control. Car companies need to evolve and change if they want to provide modern experiences to customers, not provide something half-assed and use a plug-in tablet or phone as an excuse. Also, it’s not nearly as difficult to design a good car UX in 2022 as many think. The best designers and product people are at tech companies, and they’ll move to auto if they’re given the right challenges and salary to make the switch. Auto is tech’s new Wild West, many people are looking to switch.
@@tombrennan6312 There is a thing such as balance, I believe that is what Toyota/Lexus are striving for here. I don't think they expected to nail it on their first go, but the thought process they're putting into the user experience tells me that they'll get there eventually. It's a stark contrast to companies like Tesla and Volvo which would rather force what they think is best upon their customers.
As a (retired) software engineer, Imho, the Goose team has produced another masterpiece. Super well done! Once again you managed to get access to people who were willing to talk openly and lay out for people the level of complexity that exists in the design and implementation of a modern connected in-car "infotainment" system. Thank you! Time will tell what customers think of the system implementation.
@@jsfbay1 It should be obvious. You're not too bright. That or, if bright, lazy or poorly educated and incapable of doing things once demanded of 5th Graders in Catholic schools. So much for complexity.
@@tombrennan6312 - did you have trouble understanding my post? Or do you just enjoy being the Grammar Police? Or did you consider whether I might be disabled?
I bought a 2014 Land Cruiser this spring. I'm 58 years old. With luck, this will be the last car I ever buy. I love technology, but I hate technology that takes more than it gives.
Very well put together video. It's interesting how to learn how they decide to develop. Unfortunately I feel that they may be focusing on such small sample sizes and making decisions based on those and ultimately miss the mark.
As an electronics engineer, what I don't like about the concept "we watch you to take care of you" is that they justify many invasive personal information gathering, that landed in the wrong hands (or pressed to be given up), we see ourselves in our freedom being hugely limited.
Ah but they only want all that data so they can save us money on our insurance! Give me a break Toyota, the amount of marketing nonsense in this video really detracts from what is actually quite interesting.
I find it kinda funny that they claim to have spent a lot of time thinking about their interfaces, when whenever reviewers get them they can identify how easily they could be fixed in a few seconds. Either manufacturers do spend a lot of time on this but have no idea what to do, either they don't actually give a shit and just go for the cost cutting measures. I'm not doubting the engineers, but the executives do not actually care, let's be honest. They didn't care when the airbags were deadly, that says a lot. That said, thank you Toyota for opening your doors. Being open and transparent is the right way, so major props.
Mark, Jack, SG team, thank you! Keep on this path. You’ve carved out a niche for yourselves and I love the access your geekiness has enabled you to uncover. I have never consider buying a Toyota until recently. I’m 42 years old. The Toyota II grew up with was boring Camry and Corolla. The only Toyota I’ve ever longed for is a 4Runner. But now, they’re coming up with awesome designs, halo cars, emotional experiences, all backed by a deep rooted commitment to the end user. Tech is the final piece of the puzzle. I’m holding onto my 2017 as long as I can to avoid the tech purgatory consumers are having to endure. This video opened my eyes as to why there is so much latency in development and why things are the way they are. Ps: the engineers comment about heated and cooled seats… he clearly does not live in an extreme climate. Heated seats are the 4th most used feature in Canada after the steering wheel, radio and hvac. Being able to dial the heat back and forth, on and off is a critical element and should not be buried in a menu or have the adjustability be haptic or on screen.
I feel like there is an ever-growing market for simplicity and reliability, you know, the things we can't get anymore. The Speed Queen washing machines are a great example. They cost more than the "fancy" digital washing machines but at least they work well, are simple to operate, and don't break down all the time. Life is complicated and frustrating enough without the technology draining our attention daily. I think if they made affordable, simple, and reliable vehicles for each segment, they would have a hot item(Toyota of the past). There are also very few options for small commercial vehicles in the US now. Never understood why there is no small Toyota van, like the Nissan NV200(R.I.P.). Oh well. Lastly, and most importantly, the biggest problem will be that our vehicles, like our homes, will become totally controlled by the government. Next time they want lockdowns, you simply won't be able to turn on your vehicle or will be restricted to where you are allowed to travel to. Call me a conspiracy theorist all you want. Just don't forget to get back to me in a few years when your jaw drops. Been like that for about 20 years now. Todays conspiracy theory is tomorrow's reality. China is already ahead of that curve and they own the U.S., literally.
@@drewhumphrey I'm aware but it didn't stop Nissan and others, including Ford. Where there's a will, and market, there's a way. Build em here or in Mexico....
As someone who has worked in tech for over a decade, I can say that I don’t trust tech to guide my car or keep it secure. In the days of waterfall, software had to be robust because once you shipped the disk or cartridge with the software on it, your company was screwed if anything went wrong. Agile and over the air fixes have made testing an after thought. So … I prefer to steer my own car. On the infotainment side, I really like Daniel Hall’s philosophy that repetitive adjustments should have tactile controls while less frequently used controls can go a little deeper into the touch UI. That said, please keep heated seats as tactile controls lol
This is a nuanced and hard topic, and it's hard to please everyone. Hmm, I never appreciated Toyota's 10 year life-cycle guarantee and it truly keeps cars from being a "throwaway" machine after a few years of use (like my old Pentium 1/2/3/4 machines). Thanks again.
Yes Randy, and all other analog vehicles. No one over puberty will buy a vehicle that drops a dime on them 10 times a second, and is distracting to operate.
I watch everything car, tech and motorcycle related on RUclips. Savage geese does the best, most detailed videos available. This one, The GTR history and Lexus LFA are Second to none. Well done guys !
This is the most important topic you covered thus far. This modern In-car tech thing is going out of control. Cars are not smartphones. Cars need to be safe to operate both to drivers and others on the road. And cars should be dependable without needing a software update. Please continue to preach this until governments introduce standards and limits.
so i read your comment, and i have some thoughts. i never see anyone driving dangerously while using something on the infotainment screen. i do, however, see drivers regularly driving dangerously because they're doing something on their phone. albeit i have no evidence other than my own anecdotal experience to supplement this statement. the idea behind infotainment tech is to keep the content centrally located, and presented in a way that's quickly intuitive so you *can* use it while you're driving without it being dangerous. in turn, providing easy access to phone calls, voice dictated text messages, navigation, and music; we can keep people OFF their phones while they're driving, which IS safer whether you admit it or not. and really if someone WAS going to be distracted by something on the dash of their car, they were probably just gonna use their phone anyways. at least the rest of us can have everything we need centrally located. there are certain aspects of automotive computerisation that i *don't* like, for instance having all the hardware for a feature already built into the car and disabling it with a software lock that can be purchased or subscribed to. that's dumb, and we should seriously push back against any manufacturer that does this (including toyota). i also don't like manufacturer greed locking people out of independent or consumer repair for any systems (namely tesla). if there was an open standard required by law for diagnostics of electronic systems (like how we have OBD2 for ECU diagnostics) it would actually be SIMPLER to diagnose faults because computers always tell you exactly what went wrong and where. you just have to have the read the errors. just like with a scan tool. the enemy here isn't computerisation, but manufacturer greed. in passing along messages like this, they solidify ideas in consumer minds that all electronic systems *have* to be more difficult to maintain, when that simply isn't true.
I just want the piano black trim trend to end. Thank you for making this video. My son is in HS thinking about computer jobs and had no clue about the automotive tech world.
They can talk about their diligence with privacy and data security all they like, but the fact is that once the data is collected it's accessible to the NSA and there is nothing Toyota can do about it, no matter what their intentions are. We've also seen digital devices pushed into end of life well before they stop functioning in the mobile space again and again. I am skeptical that Toyota will continue to support their cloud connected devices two or three decades from now. In the end it always falls to the device owners to fight tooth and claw to keep the technology they own from becoming disposable.
Am idea Ive had since screens started appearing in cars is on board diagnostics accessible through the infotainment. The owner would be able to see the code & what type error or problem is when the check engine light comes on instead of connecting to the OBD-II port. To go one further, if a sensor has gone bad the infotainment can provide the oem part number within the description. If modern infotainment can control the suspension, engine, & transmission settings then OBD can & should be accessible through the central display.
Catching myself watching this video not because I want to, but because i need to be more informed about the car industry as it's evolving. Thanks Mark!
Tell me Toyota, why is it that when the driver turns a volume knob, that you think it's useful to have a huge value graphic bar pop showing an abstract value changing? I'm not deaf, and if I were, I wouldn't be touching the f'n knob.
This is why I like Lotus, they focus mainly on the driving characteristics and the infotainment is an afterthought, and the Evora GT is a must have car for me for its modern simplicity
I could tell how much time and effort you put in to this video by noticing you had to get a haircut somewhere in the middle of the production! I found this very well laid out and very informative. You also may have sold some new Toyota and Lexus vehicles along the way. Very good work, indeed…
Companies should make something so I can place my phone on the dash with wireless charging. Real knobs for audio and AC. And an amazing stereo system. That’s all I need.
I'm surprised Toyota was willing to sit down with you guys and discuss infotainment. They act like they solved it, yet they have one of the worst systems on the market. And it's been that way forever.
@@imnotusingmyrealname4566 moving all touch only is a garbage system, regards of how "fast" it is. And it looks just industrial and blend as an older one.
I'm supporting so that Mark can make four important videos a year, in addition to the usual car reviews. (8:22. Executive producer Patreon support level gets a cameo role in the video.)
Mark / Jack - To quote Tom Cruise from the 1996 cinematic masterpiece Jerry Maguire : "You make me want to be a better man." Everything about this video was incredible. This is the kind of content that the "traditional" media outlets like Car & Driver should have made years ago when infotainment started to become commonplace in automobiles to (if nothing else) put the security/privacy implications of all this into the "public eye", but it took two guys on RUclips from the Midwest operating largely on passion to create something like this. I think it also speaks volumes to the credibility of the both of you that Toyota said yes to something like this. It also makes Toyota look fantastic, as I'm not aware of any other OEM that's ever been willing to have a conversation like this with anyone from the media (other than maybe something like Automotive News, which is largely a trade publication that paywalls most of its content). Toyota going "on the record" with their stances on privacy honestly makes me wish I was in a position to buy another vehicle right now. Like Mr. Goose, I've got 20 years in operations in I.T. at this point... so I know how proverbial sausage is made. With most companies : If there's a way to make $$$ off customer data that won't land them in jail, they'll do it. So that said, I hope people realize how huge it is that Toyota is saying the stuff they are as far as taking responsibility for people's data seriously. I've always thought with FCA/Stellantis and UConnect : There's no way in hell a company in the financial situation of Chrysler isn't selling every bit of data they can mine from their cars. Hell, I own two GM products with 4G/LTE modems. One of them (2019 Chevy Bolt) sends me a "Monthly diagnostic E-Mail" where it gives me cursory information about how far I've driven, my tire pressure, yada yada. I'm sure GM also has all kinds of data about my driving habits (i.e. how fast I drive, possibly with GPS data tied to it), what radio stations I listen to, what kinds of devices I'm plugging into the USB ports (i.e. iOS/Android)... and who the hell knows who they are sharing it with. As I'm sure Mr. Goose knows, there's *plenty* of companies that would happily pay for that data (preferably not anonymized) for targeted advertising.
I just want an infotainment to just show my navigation and music, that's it!! I don't want/need to watch anything or play games on it!! I have a huge OLED TV and gaming PC at home to do that stuff!!
Every car has nav and music. So what are you whining about? Just don't use the other features. You mad that manufacturers are building features for other people?
@@galactictomato1434 That they are putting huge ass touchscreens in them!! So more and more people will be distracted when using the other stuff and causing more accidents!!
The first step to successful investing is figuring out your goals and risk tolerance - either on your own or with the help of a Financial Advisor. If you can get the facts about savings and investing with a well detailed plan, you should be able to gain financial security over the years and enjoy the benefits of managing your income.
I think the key thing here is working with a professional. Yes people have devoted their lives to making profits in the market, but those of us who haven't but are interested in investing can simply work with them.
It is really ironic to hear Toyota talking all the "right" things with respect to UX, with all the obvious blunders they have made over the years in UX. The Lexus LS flagship still has the near-universally disliked touch pad rather than a touch screen, for example (and they went from the better touch screen in earlier models to the worse pad in current models). As the saying goes: talk is cheap. FWIW: I abandoned the brand 4 years ago (and purchased a new Lexus LS previous to that), so I am the person the designer was talking about, and Toyota ignored.
Thanks for posting Team SG! This comment will probably offend enthusiasts, but this video topic is more important than any of the hardcore sports car reviews. Ordinary consumers don’t give a flying damn about lap times or steering feel, but best believe they care a LOT about the technology experience. We automotive ayatollahs whine about “excess tech” in cars, but there’s a reason carmakers are pumping billions into these systems instead of, say , making six speed manual hot hatches or E39 M5 copies. This video breaks it down.
@@galactictomato1434 and rotary land-line phones exist, but that's not the point. It's more the flip phone -vs- smart phone argument. The flip phone has enough capability to perform modern communication tasks (text/call) with none of the fluff. Eventually, ICE cars will be phased out through regulation and taxation. I'm just curious how long the joy of driving an "analog" vehicle will last.
@@Pags222 You can still get the joy of an analog Model T or a horse today. You're "allowed" as you say to own and operate these things for the last 100+ years. You're "allowed" to operate that flip or rotary phone. I fail to see your point. The government isn't stopping you. So what are you whining about?
@@galactictomato1434 not whining about anything. I simply want to continue to own and operate analog vehicles with basic frills and convenient options, as a daily drive, for as long as possible. I'm curious how long it will be until it becomes impractical or cost-prohibitive to own and operate one. Model-Ts are neat, but they've been relegated to toy use by the roads and the vehicles that exist on them today. Daily driving one would be a nuisance. There will be a point where analog vehicles become the same.
Its not that older cars are dumb... All this technology is not needed. I feel like these new cars are a joke and it's like a trip back to the 80's... Lets be different! 😂
That was amazing Mark, Jack, Toyota thank you so thought provoking too. I agree with most in this video, a balance is needed between tech and physical stuff.
Hate it ! Too much technology and screens too big. It’s distracting from………..driving !!! Lexus, with their new push button door latch? Apparently, they think we need this.
I want to make this clear, I approached Toyota to do this project. And its extremely rare to get any major OEM to talk openly about how anything works. Yes there is corporare parts of this video because it takes executive level leadership to tackle projects like this that effect millions of cars. I myself nor Toyota never said what they are doing is best or better, its a dialogue about how and what goes into this and other brands face similar obstacles, namely in tech.
if you ever wake up feeling stupid, remember that a real company hired these real idiots and spent a stupid amount of money just to destroy their product and brand reputation
This is awesome work and really a rare opportunity! Looking forward to future videos.
It’s great Toyota helped to make this happen. Now it can use our feedback to evaluate how to make some of these technologies un-happen. :)
gonna crash and burn real hard
if I were Toyota I'd take this interview down, their obliviousness is so apparent when these "designers" speak. It looks really bad on them.
The paradox of American society is that people hate government involvement in their lives, yet willingly give private phone or car data to companies regulated by the same. Truly, what a time to be alive!
I actually can’t believe the access you got to Toyota executives, this is almost unparalleled in terms of what I’ve seen from RUclips content creators, I hope this piece puts SV over the top, what an incredibly bit of journalism.
ON ME I was about To hop up under here and say the same
Free advertising. He approached them with that idea in mind.
Long time subscriber. I remember when the factories wouldn’t give Mark the time of day. Much less offer a vehicle to review. Yore the man Mark.
Lol.
Oh, ewe.
“Yore” so right!
I'm left with more questions than answers. I still don't understand why the manufacturers don't simplify the entire process - make it so their cars interface with an individual's tablet or smartphone - something they're already familiar with. When I heard the engineer say "As long you have that passion, technology can fix anything." Passion for what, exactly?
This told me that, as with so many other industries, millions are spent designing 'solutions' that are usually addressing ever more complicated layers of 'solutions' on top of flawed "solutions" on top of yet earlier flawed 'solutions', instead of addressing the fundamental reason for existing in the first place. At its core, isn't infotainment really just a radio? or maybe HVAC controls?
Well Done. Brilliant. A Triumph. A Masterpiece.
As far as I'm concerned, they already figured this shit out in the late 90s and early 00s where all the buttons and features you needed were at a finger's reach. They've uninvented the wheel and told us it's a step forward. Clown world.
@@JohnFromAccounting Yes, it's change for change's sake. I love my simple Nissan 370Z which has everything I can ever need, other than blind spot monitoring. A simple stereo upgrade and I have Android Auto.
What is driving this paradigm shift? Is it the marketplace or, Is it regulations?
@@dannoyes4493 Touch screens are cheaper. It saves the car companies money to remove the physical buttons.
@@povertyspec9651 370z is a fantastic car 😍👏
I LOVE that you push the needle in your formula for your videos. It's this kind of art that helps articulate what you and Jack are doing vs just regular surface level car reviewers
I want piano black plastic on all my AutozoneTM Haptic Touch feedback panels with 100 brightness level screens that you can’t switch off. Just my taste.
Finally, we found the guy who all the new cars are made for.
The world if technology didn't exist
Screens that cannot be turned off should be a crime.
Piano black trim looks incredibly cheap!
@@JoshCraver9000 it used to be special
When the designer started talking about moving heated and cooled seats into a digital interface all i could do was scream NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
Literally fucking insane...any other car but a Tesla should have knobs and the like
The consistent problem with a lot of these UI designers is that they don't understand usability in a 2 ton vehicle.
Like.. I don't want YOU to choose what features I see based on the season. Give me buttons/switches and let me make the choices.
@@1Snouser Why shouldn't a tesla have knobs and buttons?
@@macaron3141592653 The screen is big enough to have actual target areas that someone can press with squinting or losing *significant focus (there will always be distraction). These shitty low refresh rate screens in toyotas, subarus, hondas aint gonna cut it to have buttons be virtualized. Furthermore, the Tesla goal is to have the car most drive itself/assist the driver, so one can comfortably operate the screen. I would personally like to have knobs and buttons too, but they can feasibly present an actual virtualized UX with their OS/Screen
These videos are amazing. No one else does anything like this. May not get as many views right away, but this will be an amazing historical reference when looking back at what was going on during the shift to EVs.
@Joseph Roach agreed. EV's are ironically.... Unsustainable.
@Joseph Roach ya except ethanol go big boom!
I think that we are little farther out on EV’s for mass adoption than most. That stated, the how’s and why’s in this video are somewhat insightful and the fact that Mark them to do it, historical.
@@scottgabbard662 Charging times and range are much more important in the US than other countries, which raises the bar for the feasibility of EV mass adoption. Current battery/charging capabilities are a long way off for US mass adoption outside of local urban settings. Grid capacity requirements are going to be an issue for all countries. The only feasible solution I can see at the moment is nuclear. Many countries in Europe have closed a lot of their nuclear plants over the last decade or so. No idea how they are going to solve their energy needs. Solar and wind isn't going to cut it without massive energy storage solutions.
EV's are being forced upon the enthusiast drivers by globalists' design to reduce us to serfs and cancel our freedom. People who don't defend their freedoms don't deserve to keep them.
The "cognitive overload" talking point about buttons has been so detrimental to the modern era of car interior design. Having 40 buttons for climate controls and audio is no where near as overwhelming as trying to open and close menus on a touchscreen while driving quickly or on a bumpy road. Things like volume, climate controls, safety systems, and other simple functions do not need their UI's to be changed, and should not be on a touchscreen or touch button. This is simple, and never needs to be changed. Everything else is fair game. Easy. So much of the complexity in this conversation feels manufactured and artificial.
Car manufacturers are going after the same demographic who buy a new iPhone every year! I also never trust a car executive who wears dress shoes without socks. Sure, they'll only use my data for product improvements!
Yeah only in the past 3 years has airplanes sarted to go to Glass cockpits and away from hunderds of gauges and switchs. And it's only becuase it was to much... No modernhj car has to many of them like my 2020 Mustang Preuim has a big screen yes but also buttons and switch for nealy every thing so much so I almost never interact with it the buttons do that good of job.
Folks totally forget how many buttons these 2010 to 2013ish car has. Jump in a 2012 Acura product or Porsche and tell there isn't too many buttons.
yes, the guy was like its my job to get drivers off their phones to prevent crashes... bro, its easier for me to text and drive than use your dashboard interface u spent 100m on pretending you were apple.
@RandomInternet User I agree most of it is junk but that’s why apple CarPlay and android auto is awesome, it completely negates the bullshit software that the OEMs are putting in
The Mk7 vs the mk8 VW lineup is a great example of being out of touch with customers.
MK7.5 is the best GOLF one can get
7 was amazing and 7.5 perfected it
I can’t even look at MK8, just shockingly ugly
They apparently fired the guy responsible. So they are at least self aware enough to know they fucked up.
Nice pun 😌
Well said my friend, that's why I kept my MK5 GTI!
Anyone who would cover the steering wheel with touch buttons is out of touch with their own brain. What's the point of a head up display when they've introduced a head down steering wheel?
Cars should be cars, not computers.
Also, rule one of cybersecurity is it can't be compromised if it doesn't connect to the internet.
This definitely feels like a Toyota propaganda piece on how safe our data is with them.
Agreed. A air-gapped system or system that is not connected to any network is far more secure than a system that is connected to a network (Especially a Wireless Network). I do not want this in my Automobile. Automobile Theft and other issues are going to go through the roof when hackers or others break into the system and there is no more physical security (keyed engine start) anymore for example on Automobiles. No thank you. No Sale in regards to new vehicles with these Infotainment Systems.
I do not want a Automobile that is connected to any thing.
At 39:00 he talks about getting drivers to not use their mobile phones while driving. That's great, but now, infotainment systems are responsible for a growing rate of crashes. They are just as distracting as mobile phones, perhaps more. It's a complete out-of-touch attitude to increase the influence of the infotainment system on the design of the car, and then claim they're most interested in safety. The data speaks for itself.
I don't think people realise just how much distance they are covering while driving blind in order to look at the screen. Multiple seconds are required for each action, especially if it's embedded in a menu. If something were to happen ahead, it can be the difference between gentle braking and a hard crash.
No Chit.
Yeah it's just complete bullshit. It feels like just a ploy for more cost cutting and data collection.
That feels like it's right, but do you have a source for that?
SG's video on the Tesla 3 covers one of them, but you could just lookup infotainment related crash statistics or touchscreen related crash statistics and there's quite a bit out there
All this complicated tech makes me value my '95 300ZX even more. The two buttons pods on the sides of the gauge cluster are absolutely wonderful. Headlights, fog lights, front and rear wipers, dimmer switch, cruise control on/off, all HVAC controls, and defrosters are within 6" of your fingertips without cluttering anything or being distracting.
The 300ZX had the best ergonomics ever. I had one and the instrument cluster and pods was a masterpiece.
@@povertyspec9651 this has me thinking, I wish there was some way to objectively measure the quality of ergonomics in a car. I wanna know what other cars would score very high
I haven't driven the ZX but I am certainly grateful my 370Z has such an 'outdated' interface. The touch screen is predictably slow and unresponsive and the maps have never been updated (because it costs like $200) but everything else is familiar and easy to use.
Why this obsession with being able to reprogram UIs and update everything all the time? Is that really what drivers want?
@@dielaughing73 Car manufacturers keep saying its what people are asking for but ive never actually met someone who wants this stuff. The few that do, go figure, drive electrics.
As an early 80s kid, it's so interesting to have watched countless hours of sci-fi television and movies demonstrating all the inherent flaws and dangers of certain technologies/inventions..... Then, growing up, to have all these technologies/inventions become reality...and all that cinema being proven correct along the way...crazy. Hackable vehicles and government tracking/disabling...all for a better radio. I dunno, it seems like liberties being trades for conveniences. RIP right to repair
I see fahrenheit 451 taking place all the time now
Oh dude im an early 90's kid and weve watched the same shit happen. Thank god for base model vehicles but even thats prolly not gonna last. Wont matter regardless as unless ur born with an understanding of info tech, good luck finding a job that pays enough to allow u to afford anything.
And that’s why I will keep at least one old car in my fleet
Whatever we live and portray adds it to the mix. Warning, documenting, discussing, examining, those are all processes of documenting, of historical record, not of creating.
Fear-driven people, i.e. the mindslave majority or corrupt masses, watch a movie about a dystopian future and start considering that possible reality and then hurry to prepare for it, thereby manifesting it.
The best option is not to buy it, just get a old car from the 90s that is 20 times cheaper and fix the rust...and it will last forever, until the gov will tell you that you cant drive it on the road because "iT BUrNs To MUch FUel" even tho it burns like 7l/100km, like they did in Europe in many countries because they only look at the year the car was made....So now I have to scrap my perfectly fine car that burs 7l/100km and buy a newer car that constantly falls apart and burns more fuel because "iTs MoRe eCo"
At 16 minutes he justifies putting heated seat controls in the screen by saying you only use it occasionally.
While this is true, I still want to be able to operate it while driving!! When will these designers get it into their heads that multiple seconds looking down at a screen while driving is unsafe in any case?!
Never, because they're programmers. Open up Photoshop and tell me if you understand anything about that interface.
Exactly. If it is in control of comfort it should be available at a touch while blind
that is a load of shit....thsi is why i FIRMLY believe there should be 100% different developing departments for u.s.a and canada....in winter the heated seats are used nearly 6-7 months out of the year....
@@Fra-gee-lay I'd go further and say something should only be on a screen if it can't be represented in any other way. And all screens should have an off switch.
His logic about how you only use those seat features during specific weather conditions is just flawed, all that really means is that heating/cooling should be part of the automated climate control suite, not that you can just bury it in the infotainment to find later.
I use my heated seats far more than i use cruise control, yet car designers put 4 CC buttons and a toggle right on the steering wheel but think it's ok to hide the heated seats in a menu?
Once Mark said Toyota all as I could think about was subscription-based features you want to have a remote start for the cold winter day $9.95 a month... Nickel and dimimg the shit out of everything and everyone
Because it has an added costs of running all the tech infrastructure, support and development which you never asked for. Talking about cost savings, huh?
Shit like that should be illegal!
Sadly this will only become more prevalent. Just like blank buttons on lower trim levels of current cars, companies will just toggle whatever tech features on/off for different trims if you don't pay a subscription
They did mention the 's' word somewhere. I bet someone, somewhere is creaming themselves over the 'cars as a service' model.
I was kind of annoyed by the guy that claimed you don't use heated/cooled seats that often and they should be buried in the touchscreen abyss, but they completely lost me when they started talking about their subscription BS.
I LOATHE the 50 million thousand touch screens and digital instrument clusters in modern cars & absolutely LOVE from the bottom of my heart the simplicity & logic of the interior & the way i interact with my 20 year old 5 series
I love how they all talked about customer satisfaction as their primary goal. The primary goal of any publicly traded company is shareholder satisfaction.
Which only comes from customer satisfaction, unless you're only marginally better than alternatives. Then shareholders can be satisfied with dissatisfied customers!
If users have poor experiences with your product, your shareholders and stock will react accordingly. Same goes for safety, quality and reliability, etc. Also, this video is with the team and shareholders who own the user experience of the car, so it is literally their job to ensure customers have the best experience possible.
Top priorities of any company should be customer satisfaction, followed by employee satisfaction. Assuming revenue strategy is solid while maintaining those two priorities should always result in satisfied shareholders. Where companies fall into trouble is when they prioritize maximizing profits over those two things.
@@realbigtuna667 there's a balance though. The best way to satisfy customers is to give them exactly the product they want, fully customized for every individual, for free. Obviously that's not sustainable. Running a business has to be sustainable.
Whoever is responsible for the bigger screen in the center stack of the new Venza, whoever is responsible for the Lexus touch pad, they all need to be replaced.
Call me crazy, but for me it's this simple: will I want/need to do it while driving, or every single time I start the car? If so, I want it on a physical control. And let's be clear: 'cognitive overload' doesn't happen because "too many controls", it happens because "not enough differentiation between controls." When every button is the same size, in a long row, and all icons are tiny and look same-ish... no bueno. Intelligent layouts, sizing, spacing, shapes, colors... we can process very complex systems easily, IF they're designed and laid out ergonomically. /end rant
2020 Lexus UX250h here. The audio controls are truly horrible.
We loved the simplicity of our 2012 Prius. This new vehicle is a step backward, except for Apple Car Play, which is fantastic.
Gen 2 and Gen 3 Prius were the best Priuses.
I've been in IT since 1988. I prefer old Miatas because there is no tech.
These big projects really differentiate you and Jack from other channels. Great work guys!
Munro live is the best.
I just want replaceable head units so the tech doesn’t make the vehicle feel dated after two years. Of course, I also won’t give up my V8 Lexus until they pry it from my cold dead hands.
Pry it from your cold dead hands? But “Why Not Voluntary”?
I’m sorry I just saw the opportunity and I had to take it lol
If the interior doesn't look like shit after 2 years, how else will they lease you another car?
@@jlolment the IS500 interior looked like dated shit immediately. It was an absolute crime.
Phones are replaceable, portable head units.
@@zTheBigFishz Except they're not. If he said he wanted something LIKE a replaceable, portable head unit, you'd have a point.
A car that is dependent on internet access for cloud computing is not going to be much use in the huge portion of the planet without any internet service. I know that's not where most people live, but they do need to drive through these areas.
This whole thing, especially the dependence on touch interfaces and the loss of physical controls, is a massive step backwards in terms of usability.
Starlink may be a solution to internet access in remote areas. Hmm. Maybe Elon's random biz are not so random.
Id say thats actually where most people live. These companies only care about people who have 45,000 USD, on average, to buy a new car though. "most" people buy used and have barely passable internet connections.
No Sale, I do not want this in my Vehicle at all. Give me a basic reliable Automobile. The more bells and whistles in a system or Automobile the more there is to break and the more vulnerable the vehicle is to software, data privacy, and hacking issues. No thank you. As long as this trend in Automotive design continues No Sale.
Great video, Mark! We bought a Venza last year, and purposely went for the XLE rather than the Limited because of the full haptic controls on the Limited. The XLE is much easier to operate on the move. I hate looking away from the road while driving (we live in the most densely populated state), and any control that doesn't become mostly muscle memory will be ignored while driving.
I like the idea of connecting profiles to users' phones. Even better, allow users to set up all their preferences on the phone at any time, then apply the settings when they connect to the car. This is what bike computers such as the Wahoo Elemnt do now - no fiddling around on tiny head units, just set everything in the app and it's done.
So here is the real reason these researches are being done.
Make the lower level cars harder to control and then convince you to spend more and buy more optioned cars.
I mean it was just fine when it was all analog.
@@jmat7103 If you're referring to David Mulligan getting the XLE instead of the Limited with your "Make the lower level cars harder to control and then convince you to spend more and buy more optioned cars." comment, then you are incorrect. The XLE trim is a LOWER level than the Limited. Hyundai did the same thing with the Tucson if I recall correctly. So they're making their higher level cars harder to control.
@@crazedmodder thought the xle was higher trim. I stand corrected. But either way... It seems like it's a regression than progression.
@@jmat7103 I agree, it is kind of sucky and is honestly keeping me away from a lot of cars. I'm worried that at some point they will all go the haptic path though and then I cannot get away from it.
@@jmat7103 Yeah, the XLE is the mid-level trim, with the Limited being the top trim. For '21, the XLE had heated/cooled seats and a heated steering wheel (with the Softex package), and those were the most important options for my wife. I watched review of the Limited with the haptic controls and I knew she'd hate it.
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Nothing Dan Hall said makes a damn bit of sense to me. Physical button overload? Maybe in a Pagani Zonda, not in a Camry. I don't think the manufacturers were moving buttons and knobs to illogical locations until after infotainment showed up and screwed with traditional setups.
At least I now have the manufacturers' perspective, after watching this quality video, why they keep making products I don't want to buy.
Excellent. You echoed my thoughts exactly.
I as well have lost interest in New Vehicles.
I feel like alot of non-enthusiast and tech sectors in the automotive industry dont value the desire for simplification. At least giving customers the option to "de-techify" thier cars would be great
You have to buy them now
I just don’t think those people buy new $40k+ SUVs which is the hot market right now. It’s clear to manufacturers that they can charge a premium for electronic gadgets. I just don’t think there’s enough money to be made in the “de-tech” crowd to be worth it.
@@connellyboyle1 that’s because the detect crowd never spends the money.
I had got damn fully loaded Dodge Charger j bought with 9k miles I bought in 2014.
Blind spot, lane departure, the smart cruise, parking sensors front and back, heated/cooled seats, heated seats in the rear, back up camera, remote start, Nav, Harmen Kardon with 17 speakers or some shit plus the amp, heated/cooled cup holders, power seat all the way around .
When that car was in a flood in June 2021 with 159k miles on it, the backup camera and Bluetooth was the only thing electronic that had ever malfunctioned.
My point is ,
How “de-tech” do you want to get ?
Why?
My other point
Look at Charger reliability ratings. They are terrible. But that damn Charger was one of my best and I had many.
So if the fear is it is going to mess up maybe it will.
That’s why I always buy something with performance upgrades like LSD, Bigger engines, adaptive suspension, transmissions, gear ratios, that shit and the and safety autonomous is really what holds value.
So In 10 years if it does mess up, you will still have a buyer cuz people don’t SRT8, CTS Vs, C63s for the Nav and cooled seats.
@@connellyboyle1 You know if you haven’t experienced this high tech stuff for self you may actually love it.
And I don’t mean experience it on a test drive, I mean like experience while you do the things you do every day.
and really nowadays Nav, blind spot, heated cooled seats etc is “de-tech”
I have driven THOUSANDS of cars I can only think of once where the basic luxury features like I listed above did not work.
I was in the automotive industry for 8 years until recently. All of it except the early days I was at the #1 dealership in my state. #1 and it wasn’t close. Even as a salesmen, before I had my own department, or a finance manger I was able to get a demo and I always chose used.
As much business as we did thousands is probably conservative.
My point is you are missing out on some good cars wanting “de-tech” cuz you don’t want to learn or cuz you think they will fuck up.
@RandomInternet User you don’t even need to do that.
If you want a traditional driving Car
Pontiac G8 GT is about as good as it gets
Personal case-study. I purposely went from a 2012 Volvo with a screen-based UI interface to a 2010 without it. My parents have a 2022 Volvo with everything tech-based that the car offers, and man, its a lot to navigate.
I am vastly happier stepping backwards to a more analog experience where I focus on, and enjoy more - the driving experience. I'm 35, and have all the electronics I need in my iPhone, ipad etc, but for my car, I feel that we are getting way too distracted by systems we do not need while operating heavy machinery. Nice to have for some, cumbersome and dangerous for others. That middle ground is tough to achieve for sure...Maybe when it gets simplified and basic features are not layered in distractions to access, I will be more inclined. Makes me enjoy my older cars so much when you see what we "didn't" have for so long, and were just fine.
I have a 2010 S80, and the only screen it has is the pop-up Nav system. Unless you're using Navigation, the screen stays down.
@@mhirst16 I went to a 2010 S40 which has basically no screen and the cleanest dash design in modern automobiles, my 2012 Cross country was awesome but you could tell Volvo had to do a lot of re-designing to get the screen integrated into a dash that was not designed for it when the car started its life. Interface was fine, but I love the uncluttered nature of the dashboard for this reason.
@@joelbolton7252 I think this happened to a lot of manufacturers...there was a time in recent makes and models, (looking at you Audi) where in cars like the A3, the screen is just stuck to the top of the dash, it looks like an iPad was taped on there like an afterthough...just horrible.
Finally carmakers are starting to realize that looks like shit, and are at least building the dash design around the screen instead of the other way around.
The more I watched this video... The more I realized that this is not about the future of cars but is about a giant leap backwards for cars.
So they want to collect data and make things more complicated and then come around to get more from your wallet, get you stuck in a subscription "service" to do basic things that are/were free.
You can make a compl,etely anolog BEV with a transmission and manuel it's just no one has in the past 20 years...
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough Managing the battery and the control of your electric motor requires so many digital components just by design, that by then you wouldn't be able to call that car analog anymore. There's no way to have a well functioning analog accelerator pedal in an electric car for example, which is a very essential component.
Exactly. I see no reason why Toyota should gather and sell my music preferences. I have enough apps doing it already.
When you turn cars into a disposable A to B appliance without any expectations for emotive expression, this is what we get. Car manufacturers still can't grasp the concept that people aren't cyborgs(yet).
Unfortunately to the vast majority of people they have always been disposable A to B appliances, which leaves us enthusiasts with the short end of the stick
@@MrSandChess I'm a car nut in a family of appliance people. This is very true. :(
I disagree. We are already cyborgs. Our lives revolve around (for many people, at least) machinery and digital interfaces, virtual environments. Closed off worlds.
Our cell phones are the most obvious example. Need to order food? Grab the phone and get on a food delivery app. Want to start your car? Grab the phone and start your remote app.
At work: staring at screens for a huge part of the day.
At home: staring at a screen while we eat, do other things, pray, cry, laugh, and so on.
We are without a doubt a part of a living machine network.
The vast majority of consumers only want a simple A to B appliance. Sad, but true.
I’ve just started this video. I have the urge to put the phone down and live in the woods forever.
The quality and topic of this video is out of this world. This is why savagegeese is such a savage! Great video man. I’m going to become Patreon.
I hope there is a pendulum response to all of this and we see at least a partial return to analog components.
Seems unlikely, but this is why I bought my mustang with a manual and the trim level without the touchscreen and digital dash
I've been a computer junkie all my life...my first home computer was a VIC-20 I bought in 1983. I've parlayed that into a career in IT since 1986. I know full well what computers can, and more to the point, should do, and I am NOT an anti-tech kind of person.
As soon as this guy said "technology can fix anything" I was done.
Technology is a tool, and like any tool there's a time when it's the right choice for the job, and a time when it isn't. Anybody who thinks technology can solve every problem is delusional...sometimes it makes things appreciably worse...
I didnt agree with him on that either but many of his ideas about simplifying are great.
I LOVE this episode. Another +500 points for SG's dedication to excellent content.
If this is the future, then I'm keeping my 2017 Mazda 6 for as long as I can.
Oh yeah, now some dude tels me that I don't need my cooled/heated seat button and it can be moved somewhere in the menus. This is all wrong with cars right now - my '11 m37 has a rotary for that and I can leave it on and it will stay that way after I start the car! 2011! And please, tell me how rarely I need to use that in Texas heat or Canada winters...
If you need to continue to reset you temp on your vehicles while driving then obviously your vehicle isn't doing what you need. You should have to set you cooled seats once and your temp once. Maybe an adjustment later but I live in Texas. Temp set to auto at 73. Seat set to cool at 3 or off. Frankly I don't interact with it alot. I drive 650 miles a week.
@@bigcjm good for you!
I don't agree regarding the touch screen being better for something like heated/cooled seats which are more seasonal because it's usually something I would turn on when the car is starting to run because it may either be very cold or hot initially. Then I would turn it off while driving because it would no longer be needed and in some cases could become too hot. Companies could create buttons which are customizable for things like this, and allow the user to set those buttons to do certain things in the screen.
But really, I'm going to be against touch screens in cars for the most part. I understand some vehicles which have a LOT of options almost need to have some settings in a touch screen but why not allow it to be hidden while driving? Certainly it would improve driver safety. I'm pretty sure I've seen hidable displays in some Bentleys. I don't think it's a big cost to make a digital display hidable, but even instrument clusters are pretty much all digital these days.
Heated and cooled seats should def be buttons, these tech people are out of touch (no pun intended)
Simple button to turn your heated seats on versus having to wait for your slow ass screen to start up, then navigate their stupid menu system to find the seat controls with your gloves off while it’s cold as shit
We're enthusiasts, so we know what we want in cars, and we're vocal about it. The problem is that there aren't enough of us, or that we don't buy when they come out with something that has the things we asked for. So cars end up going in a direction we don't want, because that way is more profitable.
People on this channel are enthusiasts, yes. how is the sports car market doing? Do you think we make up a majority of their real customers? We are a small portion and we very as some are tech and others are not, some like both.
I've been a long time fan of this channel. This is the best auto focused RUclips channel and the attention to detail, the editing the style of the videos, the aesthetic, its all just so good. So if you end up reading this comment, I just want you to know that you're doing a good job and I appreciate all of the work you put into making this.
By the way, I am only 8 minutes into this and I'm already impressed lol
Thank you, these videos are the hardest to make.
This video displays some of the reasons I still can't let go of my 2006 Lexus GS300:
- Screen for AC/heat, but it's one physical button, one screen button. 2 seconds to use, tops
- cooled/heated seats, it's only a physical scrolling button. It's left on in the position you leave it in and goes to work immediately when you turn on your car.
- I can TURN OFF the center console with one physical button and one screen button (especially good for latenight drives/roadtrips).
Give me physical buttons for major select options, with an easy up-down modifications on the screen I can use while driving that I dont need to look at. Only screen interfaces?
Not in this lifetime!
Great, another thing my parents can call and ask me to help them with.
That toyota campus in Plano looks insane. Ive only driven by it, cant imagine what its like inside.
The people speaking from Toyota is an example of people that think they are more intelligent than they actually are. YOU don’t tell the customer what they want………we tell YOU !
YES! Great UX comes from testing, testing, testing, with a wide variety of users.
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” ~Henry Ford
Ah yes, a 1 hour video about screens. I will watch this 10 seconds at a time from my idrive device
The more you watch this, more ridiculous it gets.
Now they talk about reducing the costs - how about NOT going for cloud and 24/7 connectivity? How about all the layers of related tech infrastructure you have to run, support and update that essentially is paid by us, customers?! Would there even be an option to have a non-connected car or it's now a must for me to pay for your garbage dev that makes experience worse?
This is just BS.
news flash: a lot of UX designers are the greatest con artists ever. Literally bootleg android builds
eat ze bug!
Its because the governments and the NGOs that rule them want it. Unfortunately Toyota along with Honda, Hyundai and Volvo are in such an NGO.
@@isakjohansson7134 Volvo is owned by Geely China
@@dougdimmadoodahdaay7887 Yes, so? They are still in the W6rld ec6nomic f6rum
Mark, this video is seriously impressive. I’ve been designing interfaces and products in tech for my entire career and can say you successfully covered the most important issues in a meaningful and logical way that others have not. Not even major tech news websites go to the depths you have. Wow.
For me, any control that involves touching a screen becomes non existent when the vehicle is in motion. But heres the thing that I don't hear talked about enough in the world of infotainments. Touch controls are fine to use for *passengers,* which means the *drivers* physical controls do *not* need to be near the screen. Steering wheel controls for things like volume and HVAC are amazing. My moms 2002, which has only physical controls mercury grand marquis has volume, "next" (for radio presets), fan speed and temperature all on the right side of the steering wheel. This was a 2002 design by ford and honestly it blows me away.
We are used to holding a screen in our hands, wrapping our fingers around it and using our thumbs to control it. In my honest opinion, this is where drivers physical controls belong. It allows the companies to go full digital in the middle, with maybe a knob in the console for physical redundancy, while giving the driver what they need literally without having to take their hands off the wheels. Take infotainment controls off the wheel (like D pads and such) and just put volume/radio, hands free calling/voice assistant, and HVAC controls for the right hand. Left hand controls cruise control and the gauge cluster. For cars with dual zone climate, obviously just link the driver's climate to the wheel, keep the passenger exclusively touch. Then just have a little popup in the gauge cluster screen that reflects the changes being made by hitting the steering wheel buttons so that the driver can see what they are doing at a glance without having to take their eyes off the road to look at the main screen. It would take a little getting used to for a driver to just use the buttons under their fingers natively vs reaching over to the middle of the dash, but in the long term it would be beneficial.
Brilliant m8
Agreed. Driver controls that may be needed while driving should be almost exclusively analog and tactile.
Again another great video! From my point of view as a driver who enjoys a fun car and a reliable car, we are witnessing and end to the tem "simple car". When I hear the words: data collection, subscription, cloud, security and statistics, I feel like the future car will be just like our phone, constantly knowing what we do, where we are, bombarding the driver with new personalised adds and a need to replace it because of the obsolete hardware. I understand why Toyota is doing this. My biggest problem is when Tim Carroll says: "Think of the value of the data that can provide to companies and governments".
Yep -- the "helpful" example he gave (block by block weather for EMS) is essentially already available. He rubbed me the wrong way.
Will courts decide vehicle info is protected to some degree? It's an open question -- phones need a search warrant to be opened, but the personal nature of phone use as opposed to the public nature of auto use (public roads, licensing required, etc.) could drive a less privacy-oriented outcome. Also, merely subpoenaing certain cell data is currently allowed -- hard to imagine travel records would get more protection than that.
And don't forget the criminal element. It could be a stalker's wet dream to know about a victim's recent or current travel, and organized crime could benefit greatly from some of this info too.
We could have developed a v10 manual transmission sports car but the market research said people were most interested in watching tik toks and changing their ambient lighting on their MMI screen. This is the future we asked for. Anyways, thank you Mr Goose for the in depth video.
Stop having preferences, bigot. Market research has determined that you don't matter.
Yes v10 manual sports cars are real money makers... Get real.
I couldn't get the manual v10, but does a manual flat 6 count? "Tech" includes power windows and 2 way adjustable seats, 1 way powered and 1 way manual. No sport mode or any buttons at all on the steering wheel.
"We wanted flying cars, instead we got 140 characters." - Peter Thiel
I appreciate that you guys do segments like this. Great video.
One man's opinion: customers that are interested in an automated carriage ride shouldn't be consulted on anything BUT an automated carriage. From a practical stance, technology integration in cars reached its peak with audio media and navigation integration. They wasted the opportunity to allow for all this tech to help the customer mechanically by bypassing the need for dealer diagnostics, and pretty much everything else they keep shoving in there is nonsense being "asked for" by people who grew up with cars that helped them reverse, park, change lanes, manage speed, and pay attention to other objects on the road.
Now let's talk some objectivity. ANYTHING that pulls your eyes from the road is unsafe, and any discussion regarding a UI that promotes safety, while still requiring use of touch features or precision manipulation of controls is completely disingenuous. I'm glad they at least acknowledged the complete edge that manual controls have in this regard, but they're still doing what they're doing.
The discussion regarding consumer security is also pretty laughable. These manufacturers can say whatever they want but the reality is that if they're using affiliate software (Google search engine, for example) aspects of your data will be sold to those software companies in order to offset licensing fees charged to the car manufacturer. You can add advertisements based on your driving habits to those based around browser activity and social media.
Lastly, cost and environmental impact. Even if Toyota (or whomever) decides to absorb the increase in manufacturering cost with all the added tech and research that went into it, fixing a car is only going to get more costly the more they increase infotainment and tech integration. Add to that the reality of what goes into all this added and improved tech is only increasing negative environmental impact.
The current direction of the automotive industry is pretty disheartening. I'm hoping the next 5 years or so sees more people pushing back somewhat, but I'm pretty sure that's a pipe dream as people are all to comfortable with being told they need these features, or being told that an EV loaded with tech is somehow "greener" than a straightforward combustion powered vehicle.
So ...using a digital interface for seat heating and cooling is for customer convenience, and not so these companies can lock that feature behind a subscription? ...Uh-huh.
This is a terrible, awful trend. Automotive companies lost the race for technology with phone companies. They simply can't compare in terms of UX/UI with Apple or Google. Why spend billions of dollars persuing some tech that you know is going to be behind the moment it releases, instead of just focusing on what you do best?
Car infotainment systems should include just the basics: vehicle status, some basic settings and Android Auto and Apple Carplay as standard. That's it!
Car companies should deliver good hardware: screens, buttons, audio systems and GTFO other parts of technology race, such as navigation and multimedia playback.
They could finally stop pretending to know what they are doing and quit this nonsense, instead focusing on what they know how to do.
This is so simple to fix and such an easy solution that it just boggles my mind why it isn't being done
Even better, all physical controls for the things that matter, and leave a space for an Apple or Android tablet to attach to the dash. That way they keep costs down and customers get more customisation over how they setup their vehicle.
"it just boggles my mind why it isn't being done"
Control and data.
Two very powerful resources that money can't buy.
I would disagree. On one hand, they should support and embrace CarPlay, Android Auto, etc, but they *need* to have a base system for things like temperature, safety systems, etc to operate and for users to control. Car companies need to evolve and change if they want to provide modern experiences to customers, not provide something half-assed and use a plug-in tablet or phone as an excuse.
Also, it’s not nearly as difficult to design a good car UX in 2022 as many think. The best designers and product people are at tech companies, and they’ll move to auto if they’re given the right challenges and salary to make the switch. Auto is tech’s new Wild West, many people are looking to switch.
@@RubmaLione I don't want a modern experience, just a useful one. Most of which is provided by knobs and switches.
@@tombrennan6312 There is a thing such as balance, I believe that is what Toyota/Lexus are striving for here. I don't think they expected to nail it on their first go, but the thought process they're putting into the user experience tells me that they'll get there eventually. It's a stark contrast to companies like Tesla and Volvo which would rather force what they think is best upon their customers.
As a (retired) software engineer, Imho, the Goose team has produced another masterpiece. Super well done! Once again you managed to get access to people who were willing to talk openly and lay out for people the level of complexity that exists in the design and implementation of a modern connected in-car "infotainment" system. Thank you! Time will tell what customers think of the system implementation.
Did you parse your opening sentence? You can't even write a sentence to satisfy a nun teaching 5th grade yet you talk about complexity.
@@tombrennan6312 - your point?
@@jsfbay1 It should be obvious. You're not too bright. That or, if bright, lazy or poorly educated and incapable of doing things once demanded of 5th Graders in Catholic schools. So much for complexity.
@@tombrennan6312 - did you have trouble understanding my post? Or do you just enjoy being the Grammar Police? Or did you consider whether I might be disabled?
I bought a 2014 Land Cruiser this spring. I'm 58 years old. With luck, this will be the last car I ever buy. I love technology, but I hate technology that takes more than it gives.
Can't wait for my vehicle to get remote code executed 😎
Very well put together video. It's interesting how to learn how they decide to develop. Unfortunately I feel that they may be focusing on such small sample sizes and making decisions based on those and ultimately miss the mark.
As an electronics engineer, what I don't like about the concept "we watch you to take care of you" is that they justify many invasive personal information gathering, that landed in the wrong hands (or pressed to be given up), we see ourselves in our freedom being hugely limited.
Ah but they only want all that data so they can save us money on our insurance! Give me a break Toyota, the amount of marketing nonsense in this video really detracts from what is actually quite interesting.
I find it kinda funny that they claim to have spent a lot of time thinking about their interfaces, when whenever reviewers get them they can identify how easily they could be fixed in a few seconds. Either manufacturers do spend a lot of time on this but have no idea what to do, either they don't actually give a shit and just go for the cost cutting measures. I'm not doubting the engineers, but the executives do not actually care, let's be honest.
They didn't care when the airbags were deadly, that says a lot.
That said, thank you Toyota for opening your doors. Being open and transparent is the right way, so major props.
“Who wants a seat heater when it’s warm out?” ME! I love seat heaters because they help relax my back.
Mark, Jack, SG team, thank you! Keep on this path. You’ve carved out a niche for yourselves and I love the access your geekiness has enabled you to uncover. I have never consider buying a Toyota until recently. I’m 42 years old. The Toyota II grew up with was boring Camry and Corolla. The only Toyota I’ve ever longed for is a 4Runner. But now, they’re coming up with awesome designs, halo cars, emotional experiences, all backed by a deep rooted commitment to the end user. Tech is the final piece of the puzzle. I’m holding onto my 2017 as long as I can to avoid the tech purgatory consumers are having to endure.
This video opened my eyes as to why there is so much latency in development and why things are the way they are.
Ps: the engineers comment about heated and cooled seats… he clearly does not live in an extreme climate. Heated seats are the 4th most used feature in Canada after the steering wheel, radio and hvac. Being able to dial the heat back and forth, on and off is a critical element and should not be buried in a menu or have the adjustability be haptic or on screen.
I feel like there is an ever-growing market for simplicity and reliability, you know, the things we can't get anymore. The Speed Queen washing machines are a great example. They cost more than the "fancy" digital washing machines but at least they work well, are simple to operate, and don't break down all the time. Life is complicated and frustrating enough without the technology draining our attention daily. I think if they made affordable, simple, and reliable vehicles for each segment, they would have a hot item(Toyota of the past). There are also very few options for small commercial vehicles in the US now. Never understood why there is no small Toyota van, like the Nissan NV200(R.I.P.). Oh well. Lastly, and most importantly, the biggest problem will be that our vehicles, like our homes, will become totally controlled by the government. Next time they want lockdowns, you simply won't be able to turn on your vehicle or will be restricted to where you are allowed to travel to. Call me a conspiracy theorist all you want. Just don't forget to get back to me in a few years when your jaw drops. Been like that for about 20 years now. Todays conspiracy theory is tomorrow's reality. China is already ahead of that curve and they own the U.S., literally.
Look up the chicken tax for light trucks and vans. That’s why there are no foreign-made vehicles like that in the US.
@@drewhumphrey I'm aware but it didn't stop Nissan and others, including Ford. Where there's a will, and market, there's a way. Build em here or in Mexico....
I’ll never take for granted the comedic value in the stock videography SG picks 🤣
As someone who has worked in tech for over a decade, I can say that I don’t trust tech to guide my car or keep it secure. In the days of waterfall, software had to be robust because once you shipped the disk or cartridge with the software on it, your company was screwed if anything went wrong. Agile and over the air fixes have made testing an after thought. So … I prefer to steer my own car.
On the infotainment side, I really like Daniel Hall’s philosophy that repetitive adjustments should have tactile controls while less frequently used controls can go a little deeper into the touch UI. That said, please keep heated seats as tactile controls lol
Yep. Exact same thing can be said about the Video Gaming industry too. Agile and Scrum. Its causing everyone to get subpar products.
This is a nuanced and hard topic, and it's hard to please everyone. Hmm, I never appreciated Toyota's 10 year life-cycle guarantee and it truly keeps cars from being a "throwaway" machine after a few years of use (like my old Pentium 1/2/3/4 machines). Thanks again.
The older I get, the more I am drawn to older cars. Not having an infotainment screen actually feels like a luxury.
Screen dominant interiors are so painfully clear as just cost cutting that they can't help but cheapen every interior.
The value of 'analog' Porsches just went up again.
Yes Randy, and all other analog vehicles. No one over puberty will buy a vehicle that drops a dime on them 10 times a second, and is distracting to operate.
@@firefighterps2 Wow lots of prepubescent children buying up every car on the market right now... Or you're delusional and out of touch, hmm 🤔
All of this will be packaged and sold to the highest bidder; your location, habits, and everything else.
Its all for your social credit system
I watch everything car, tech and motorcycle related on RUclips. Savage geese does the best, most detailed videos available. This one, The GTR history and Lexus LFA are Second to none. Well done guys !
This is the most important topic you covered thus far. This modern In-car tech thing is going out of control. Cars are not smartphones. Cars need to be safe to operate both to drivers and others on the road. And cars should be dependable without needing a software update. Please continue to preach this until governments introduce standards and limits.
We definitely don't want the government introducing UI and interior design standards that aren't related to crash proection.l
so i read your comment, and i have some thoughts.
i never see anyone driving dangerously while using something on the infotainment screen. i do, however, see drivers regularly driving dangerously because they're doing something on their phone. albeit i have no evidence other than my own anecdotal experience to supplement this statement.
the idea behind infotainment tech is to keep the content centrally located, and presented in a way that's quickly intuitive so you *can* use it while you're driving without it being dangerous. in turn, providing easy access to phone calls, voice dictated text messages, navigation, and music; we can keep people OFF their phones while they're driving, which IS safer whether you admit it or not. and really if someone WAS going to be distracted by something on the dash of their car, they were probably just gonna use their phone anyways. at least the rest of us can have everything we need centrally located.
there are certain aspects of automotive computerisation that i *don't* like, for instance having all the hardware for a feature already built into the car and disabling it with a software lock that can be purchased or subscribed to. that's dumb, and we should seriously push back against any manufacturer that does this (including toyota). i also don't like manufacturer greed locking people out of independent or consumer repair for any systems (namely tesla). if there was an open standard required by law for diagnostics of electronic systems (like how we have OBD2 for ECU diagnostics) it would actually be SIMPLER to diagnose faults because computers always tell you exactly what went wrong and where. you just have to have the read the errors. just like with a scan tool.
the enemy here isn't computerisation, but manufacturer greed.
in passing along messages like this, they solidify ideas in consumer minds that all electronic systems *have* to be more difficult to maintain, when that simply isn't true.
I just want the piano black trim trend to end.
Thank you for making this video. My son is in HS thinking about computer jobs and had no clue about the automotive tech world.
They can talk about their diligence with privacy and data security all they like, but the fact is that once the data is collected it's accessible to the NSA and there is nothing Toyota can do about it, no matter what their intentions are. We've also seen digital devices pushed into end of life well before they stop functioning in the mobile space again and again. I am skeptical that Toyota will continue to support their cloud connected devices two or three decades from now. In the end it always falls to the device owners to fight tooth and claw to keep the technology they own from becoming disposable.
Good point. They never want one sale. They want dependency because they want to suck our blood and live on it.
This is legitimately the best car program over all types of media. You guys do a wonderful job.
lol
Am idea Ive had since screens started appearing in cars is on board diagnostics accessible through the infotainment. The owner would be able to see the code & what type error or problem is when the check engine light comes on instead of connecting to the OBD-II port. To go one further, if a sensor has gone bad the infotainment can provide the oem part number within the description.
If modern infotainment can control the suspension, engine, & transmission settings then OBD can & should be accessible through the central display.
acura was doing this for awhile. Don't know if they still are. BMW also did some diagnostics through idrive.
Catching myself watching this video not because I want to, but because i need to be more informed about the car industry as it's evolving. Thanks Mark!
Tell me Toyota, why is it that when the driver turns a volume knob, that you think it's useful to have a huge value graphic bar pop showing an abstract value changing? I'm not deaf, and if I were, I wouldn't be touching the f'n knob.
This is why I like Lotus, they focus mainly on the driving characteristics and the infotainment is an afterthought, and the Evora GT is a must have car for me for its modern simplicity
Also an Evora driver - last and final analog experience for a legendary ending of an era. We will see how Emira will be.
I could tell how much time and effort you put in to this video by noticing you had to get a haircut somewhere in the middle of the production! I found this very well laid out and very informative. You also may have sold some new Toyota and Lexus vehicles along the way. Very good work, indeed…
Amazing. Thank you. Love this kind of videos. Really sets you guys apart
Companies should make something so I can place my phone on the dash with wireless charging. Real knobs for audio and AC. And an amazing stereo system. That’s all I need.
I normally don’t comment on videos. I greatly appreciate this. The information and sources were enlightening. Thank you all involved in creating this.
I'm surprised Toyota was willing to sit down with you guys and discuss infotainment. They act like they solved it, yet they have one of the worst systems on the market. And it's been that way forever.
The new system is bad too?
Their new system is pretty solid though
@@imnotusingmyrealname4566 moving all touch only is a garbage system, regards of how "fast" it is. And it looks just industrial and blend as an older one.
I'm supporting so that Mark can make four important videos a year, in addition to the usual car reviews. (8:22. Executive producer Patreon support level gets a cameo role in the video.)
Toyota is not the company to ask about state of car Technology
Mark / Jack - To quote Tom Cruise from the 1996 cinematic masterpiece Jerry Maguire : "You make me want to be a better man."
Everything about this video was incredible.
This is the kind of content that the "traditional" media outlets like Car & Driver should have made years ago when infotainment started to become commonplace in automobiles to (if nothing else) put the security/privacy implications of all this into the "public eye", but it took two guys on RUclips from the Midwest operating largely on passion to create something like this.
I think it also speaks volumes to the credibility of the both of you that Toyota said yes to something like this.
It also makes Toyota look fantastic, as I'm not aware of any other OEM that's ever been willing to have a conversation like this with anyone from the media (other than maybe something like Automotive News, which is largely a trade publication that paywalls most of its content).
Toyota going "on the record" with their stances on privacy honestly makes me wish I was in a position to buy another vehicle right now.
Like Mr. Goose, I've got 20 years in operations in I.T. at this point... so I know how proverbial sausage is made. With most companies : If there's a way to make $$$ off customer data that won't land them in jail, they'll do it. So that said, I hope people realize how huge it is that Toyota is saying the stuff they are as far as taking responsibility for people's data seriously.
I've always thought with FCA/Stellantis and UConnect : There's no way in hell a company in the financial situation of Chrysler isn't selling every bit of data they can mine from their cars.
Hell, I own two GM products with 4G/LTE modems. One of them (2019 Chevy Bolt) sends me a "Monthly diagnostic E-Mail" where it gives me cursory information about how far I've driven, my tire pressure, yada yada. I'm sure GM also has all kinds of data about my driving habits (i.e. how fast I drive, possibly with GPS data tied to it), what radio stations I listen to, what kinds of devices I'm plugging into the USB ports (i.e. iOS/Android)... and who the hell knows who they are sharing it with.
As I'm sure Mr. Goose knows, there's *plenty* of companies that would happily pay for that data (preferably not anonymized) for targeted advertising.
I just want an infotainment to just show my navigation and music, that's it!! I don't want/need to watch anything or play games on it!! I have a huge OLED TV and gaming PC at home to do that stuff!!
Every car has nav and music. So what are you whining about? Just don't use the other features. You mad that manufacturers are building features for other people?
@@galactictomato1434 That they are putting huge ass touchscreens in them!! So more and more people will be distracted when using the other stuff and causing more accidents!!
This was an outstanding video - BRAVO! I love it and I want more of it!!
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Fantastic video. These are your best stories you put together, love your fine print series. Shows a lot of work was put into this
It is really ironic to hear Toyota talking all the "right" things with respect to UX, with all the obvious blunders they have made over the years in UX. The Lexus LS flagship still has the near-universally disliked touch pad rather than a touch screen, for example (and they went from the better touch screen in earlier models to the worse pad in current models). As the saying goes: talk is cheap.
FWIW: I abandoned the brand 4 years ago (and purchased a new Lexus LS previous to that), so I am the person the designer was talking about, and Toyota ignored.
Thanks for posting Team SG! This comment will probably offend enthusiasts, but this video topic is more important than any of the hardcore sports car reviews. Ordinary consumers don’t give a flying damn about lap times or steering feel, but best believe they care a LOT about the technology experience. We automotive ayatollahs whine about “excess tech” in cars, but there’s a reason carmakers are pumping billions into these systems instead of, say , making six speed manual hot hatches or E39 M5 copies. This video breaks it down.
Wonder how long I'll be "allowed" to own and operate a "dumb" vehicle.
You can still own and drive a Ford Model T. Nobody is stopping you. Or hell, get a horse.
@@galactictomato1434 and rotary land-line phones exist, but that's not the point. It's more the flip phone -vs- smart phone argument. The flip phone has enough capability to perform modern communication tasks (text/call) with none of the fluff. Eventually, ICE cars will be phased out through regulation and taxation. I'm just curious how long the joy of driving an "analog" vehicle will last.
@@Pags222 You can still get the joy of an analog Model T or a horse today. You're "allowed" as you say to own and operate these things for the last 100+ years. You're "allowed" to operate that flip or rotary phone. I fail to see your point. The government isn't stopping you. So what are you whining about?
@@galactictomato1434 not whining about anything. I simply want to continue to own and operate analog vehicles with basic frills and convenient options, as a daily drive, for as long as possible. I'm curious how long it will be until it becomes impractical or cost-prohibitive to own and operate one. Model-Ts are neat, but they've been relegated to toy use by the roads and the vehicles that exist on them today. Daily driving one would be a nuisance. There will be a point where analog vehicles become the same.
Its not that older cars are dumb... All this technology is not needed. I feel like these new cars are a joke and it's like a trip back to the 80's... Lets be different! 😂
Another example of why SG is the best automotive YT channel. Your progression over the years has been awesome to witness.
Once I reach my dream car the LC500 that is probably it for me buying new cars.
That was amazing Mark, Jack, Toyota thank you so thought provoking too. I agree with most in this video, a balance is needed between tech and physical stuff.
Hate it ! Too much technology and screens too big. It’s distracting from………..driving !!! Lexus, with their new push button door latch? Apparently, they think we need this.
This video was actually refreshing to watch instead of stressful like I thought it would be