Is Corrin Actually a Well-Written Character? A Fire Emblem Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- Corrin, the hero of Fire Emblem Fates, receives a lot of crap. Is it justified? I dunno. In this video, we find out and ponder about what makes a well-written character.
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NOTE: I made a mistake and referred to chapter 13 as chapter 14!
Also, there's a bit at the end where I ignore Robin when mentioning player avatar protagonists. It is my opinion that Robin is a deuteragonist, while Chrom is the protagonist of Awakening. Maybe this is a distinction without a difference. I don't know, but if you're going to rip on me for ignoring Robin, direct your energy instead towards ripping me for being the type of person to use the word "deuteragonist."
What is the difference between Byleth and Robin in this example? I wouldn't rate Byleth's story importance above Lorenz, Felix, Dedue or Hubert, much less Claude, Edelgard, and Dimitri, the actual protagonists.
@@rockyhankin8679 I'd personally place the fact that the story is moving around Byleth as the reason. Byleth even has the fire emblem, not the lords.
That’s a good question. I don’t really know how to classify Byleth. He’s technically the protagonist since it’s his eyes we watch the story through, but he’s honestly more like Mad Max where he’s just a lens for us to watch a story through (shame the game emphasizes him so much)
@@rockyhankin8679I actually kinda agree on Robin being the deuteragonist, though not sure if my reasons are the same.
For me it’s kind of a feeling based on the roles they fill. Chrom is the more typical “hero” type, and the leader of the group. While Robin is, of course, the tactician, who generally works to achieve Chrom’s goals. It almost felt like a story told from a support/side character’s PoV at some points, which I found interesting.
Under that same logic, couldn't you say Kris is a deuteragonist? After the prologue it becomes much more Marth's story, and you could even argue the Robin has more plot relevance than Kris (since Grima is the big bad bit Katarina and co. are confined to skippable chapters?)
Hard as it may be to believe, Leo is actually *younger* than Corrin
Hello
Wait what
@@dol767 Biologically he's younger but he's more mature
My head canon is that they're so close together in age that the difference is negligible and Leo is more mentally and emotionally mature than Corrin, so therefore like an older brother type figure.
Like many Fates characters, I feel like Corrin is a character with a really interesting concept who gets dragged down by the awful writing. A protagonist who wants to fight a war without killing due to their sheltered upbringing and idealistic worldview is really interesting, but because they're an avatar it feels like they're not allowed to face consequences or criticism. I would love to see a character like Corrin tried again, but as someone other than the player's self-insert.
Elincia, seriously, the two are very similar in personality and execution, but she sticks the landing a lot better.
@@kingbeerz7978 the Reason for fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligents Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Intelligent Systems wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Nintendo knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung.
@@orangeslash1667You must’ve gone through a lot of games of information telephone to get your info that wrong, sorry
@@emblemblade9245 Ok Smart guy when explain in extreme detail of what happened?????? If you can't, don't reply.
"don't replying"
🤣Foreign speakers masquerading as experts in a subject is always the best.
if I was in fire emblem I would simply defeat garon in the marketplace of ideas and win
Garon’s brain is still in recovery mode
@@ProfessorBopper the Reason for fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligents Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Intelligent Systems wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Nintendo knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung.
I spend a LOT of time thinking and writing about Corrin. I have a whole massive twitlonger about this specific subject that I won't just plug unless asked, but it covers the bulk of my extensive thoughts on the subject. While I agree with most of the criticisms of how Corrin is commonly approached being very self-centered, I'd like to criticize the idea that Corrin does not face personal consequences as a consequence of their actions and story events. I think this is a fair criticism of explicitly the Revelation route, but that route does not exist in a vacuum. I think excessive focus is placed on what is going on outside of Corrin, and not what is going on within them, which is where a major amount of Fates' narrative takes place. Corrin has some of the most fragile self-esteem of any protagonist I've ever seen, and as much as they try to believe the reassurance of their family and friends to not excessively blame themselves, or feel guilty as a consequence of their actions, they nonetheless still suffer from a ruinous view of themselves as a person for things they believe to be their fault (whether or not that is actually the case). If looking at Conquest specifically, this can be demonstrated with Corrin's monologue at the beginning of chapter 15, expressing their regret for the horrible things they've been complacent in up to that point. After fighting the kitsune, they try to shut down Azura trying to comfort them, claiming that they were responsible for a massacre, and even after Azura seemingly succeeds in encouraging them, after she leaves, they claim to themselves they couldn't possibly be worthy of the Yato while they fight in service of a corrupt king. Most severely, after Ryoma's death, they claim they never do anything but hurt their loved ones, a perspective that's easy to see how they came to when they've spent the past numerous chapters destroying the lives people who once desired nothing more than to live in peace with them. Honestly, to be real, I'd argue Corrin is one of the only lords in the entire series who faces meaningful repercussions for their actions, as we see their mental state seriously negatively affected by it. For most others, even if they face a physical consequence for their actions, their mental state is unaffected. Ike getting Nasir killed by recklessly challenging the Black Knight (which isn't even canon) doesn't make him regret his actions or feel guilt about his carelessness, he just moves on. There are some exceptions to this, like Eliwood's guilt over Ninian's death (which isn't even his fault at all anyway considering Durandal compels him to do it, but it's still a great moment for his character), but they are the exceptions for FE lords, not the norm. I honestly loved Fates' focus on internal, personal struggle instead of just external elements, and it made me empathize and feel for its lead in a way most FE games fail to. I don't pretend Fates story is perfect or w/e, but this focus on an indecisive, mentally tormented protagonist (among other things) makes it without a doubt the most interesting to me.
Unfortunately I actually think this is somewhat valid at surface level, the Unfortunate part is I find the execution so disingenuous. I think Corrin's character has a negative internal monolog but also expects and believes they deserve their beloved status by everyone, particularly in birthright. They're ticked or downright confused when people they've just met don't fall at their feet to kiss them (haha bare feet meme). I think that's having a protagonist with a lot of self doubt is a great idea and an interesting subversion but combining it with that sense of entitlement, that just seems like the 2 major qualities of a narcissist. The classic abusive narcissistic personality has an extremely fragile view of themselves and will lash out at those who break the facade, as well as expecting the world to revolve around them and manipulating others to make it so. Is corrin a narcissist? Not a classic one, but you can make that argument. Even when corrin is doubting their abilities, this is typically verbalized to others, which always garners sympathy and reassurance from others. That's kind of suspicious from the chosen-one princeling. This sounds like a learned behavior to recieve emotional support and ego pampering to me.
@@aetherius6221 I didn't really mean this to get into a debate thread or w/e, but I don't think the script actually reflects what you're saying. Heck, while Corrin does occasionally get frustrated and actively talk about their guilt to others at times, they often actively try to hide it. There are numerous occasions where Corrin tries to insist they're okay, not wanting to worry others but when pressed on a subject, reveals how fragile their mental state is at the time. There's a lot more I have to say about that specific matter, since I find it really interesting honestly, but that's a whole different topic. I also... think it's kinda just weird to act like people always have their mental state in check all times, and don't sometimes seriously need help and validation from others to help deal with self esteem problems. It's not exactly like this young, inexperienced fictional character in a medieval high fantasy RPG setting can just go see a therapist to make sure they're approaching their self esteem problems in a healthy way, after all. I don't think Corrin really has much expectation at all that others must treat them well either, you'd be hard pressed to find actual evidence in the script of that. Corrin has very lofty expectations of themselves they often feel distraught when they fail to meet, but they are also much harder on themselves than they are on others.
@@At0m1cpickle that's fair, I read birthright a long time ago and that may be more of an impression than an accurate reflection. I find it difficult to have goodwill for Corrin based more on the narrative than their particular actions. They have (mostly) sympathetic motivations and actions, but their destruction of narrative possibilities and even warping of others' characters narratives very much hardens the heart in my experience. It's like a log blocking the road. You hate the log and all it embodies, even if the log had no intention to make you late for work. I think that's one of the reasons I and many others have written corrin off as a bad job. They make Xander and Leo, great characters I enjoy, into jokes with their presence, the narrative takes them entirely too seriously, and unfortunately they can do no wrong, even unintentionally. If conquest was either some descent into madness and evil, or at least sacrificing what you believed to keep your family, it'd actually have some gravitas, some grey morality, instead of the funny chair plot it did turn out as. The only moment I genuinely sympathized unironically with Corrin was the Kitsune massacre, because the game didn't make excuses or pretend nobody died, they allowed to Corrin to do something wrong out of necessity, which feels OUT OF PLACE AND DISCORDANT WITH THE NARRATIVE. The best piece of Corrin's writing in the trilogy feels unnatural and out of place in the wider context. What an unfortunate direction they took with Fates overall.
@@At0m1cpickle the Reason for fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligents Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Intelligent Systems wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Nintendo knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung.
I don't have issues with Corrin being a character who makes bad decisions. I have more issues with Corrin being a supposed-self-insert who then makes decisions directly opposed to what I the player would make. Either make Corrin their own character or let me decide Corrin's reactions, not this halfway house.
My other and frankly bigger issue with Corrin isn't Corrin themselves, but rather the fact that all the other characters bend around Corrin. It's one of the truest characteristics of a, forgive the term, "Mary Sue," ruining other characters to force the importance of Corrin themselves. I want to like all the other royals, and for the most part I do, but when they have to make any decision relating to Corrin they bend over backwards, either to blindly support Corrin no matter what, or to blindly antagonize no matter what, to the extent that even Takumi gets rewritten as having gotten brainwashed by Anankos in order to justify why he didn't like Corrin, despite the fact that having a naturally distrusting nature would have been something that makes sense and would have been worth unraveling on its own merits.
And yes, the fact that Corrin never sees any consequences of their actions (or inaction as the case may be) is probably the bigger reason why this ends up being frustrating. Because while it's one thing to make a bad decision, it's another thing to see NO CONSEQUENCES from that decision. At least Eirika and Celica actually faced consequences for their decisions, meaning that even though it felt like a mistake it was TREATED like a mistake in-character.
And consequences don't have to be permanent. You don't have to kill Celica forever, you don't have to let Fomortiis win, but you DO need to show that the characters either acknowledge they made a mistake and see what impact it has on them, or if they don't acknowledge it the story should reinforce it back onto them. That's just good writing practice.
The fact you can marry your siblings will always be the perfect example of why Fates' story doesn't work. It really feels like they had to overcomplicate and dilute the whole point of the story just so you could date Hot Lobster Guy. The whole story forcew to bend itself around Corrin/You, and losing all interest and nuance in the aftermath
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 Ryoma: "FWI, Mom said you're not my sister so we can bone."
Corrin in game: "Nice."
The proper response: "Then who tf were my parents???"
This perfectly sums up my issues with Corrin. A avatar like Robin is forgivable because the entire story has them as a part of pair with Chrom, and being a Lancer to Chrom.
Byleth, a bland as they are personality wise, is written as a passive protag so I'm kinda, really pushing the word kinda here, okay with them being an MC without any real agency.
But Corrin plays an active role in their plot and makes choices that progresses the plot, all while getting no really push back. Corrin is actively dragged down by the other Lords around them and it feels like it's because those Lords are too afraid to let Corrin make choices and handle to consequences.
@@neog8029 "Why did you tricked me? What else are you hiding for me ? You're lucky Garon is so obviously evil, because otherwise, I'd be back with my other family in no time!"
I'm so tired of this objectively false statement of people saying people bend over backwards for Corrin and that they face ZERO CONSEQUENCES for their actions. Especially when nobody ever brings up any examples supporting this. Every single route is riddled with consequences ontop of consequences.
In BR there is more than one instance of people objecting to Corrin's choices (Recruiting Zola and Silas, confronting the wind tribe, laying down their weapons at the wolfskin area and going along with Fake Izana) or save them from danger (Fake Izanas trap).
All of this serves Corrins arc of growing as a leader in Birthright and one of the routes many themes, Growth.
Some of the examples I mentioned had consequences in them. Trusting Zola almost resulted in their demise. Corrin naively believing Fake Izana was trustworthy almost got them and Sakura killed. Only to be saved by the others.
In fact when Iago is next to perish, Leo shows up and kills him. Corrin watches and unlike Zola, he says nothing. Showing they learned!
The literal consequence to two out of three routes is they have to fight their siblings and two out of four respective perish. How is that not a consequence? That by definition is.
Their Nohrian siblings in Conquest object IN THE FIRST CHAPTER OF THE ROUTE. Corrin doesnt wanna fight the Hoshidans and all of their siblings says no to Corrin, followed by them all fighting the Hoshidans, much to Corrins dismay.
People often give Corrin flack in CQ for sparing people but heres the reality, the other siblings show that they are content with this too if they can help it. Leo even points this out when they are tasked with going after the dancers by Garon. They all try their best to not do more than they have to.
Before someone makes an obnoxious retort of "why do they follow Corrin if they continue to mess up?" Heres my response.
For the same reason EVERY lord that makes mistakes and gets into trouble does. Because he cant ever grow as a leader if he isnt allowed to make mistakes which he does. Because its pragmatic to follow the person who is a competent leader for combat. Like every lord before.
Because he has Yato which is stated to bring peace to the world. Something that the Hoshidans especially recognize hince why they follow him. Something that is mentioned constantly every route is how important the Yato is.
Corrin is no different from any lord that came before and after. They make mistakes. They suffer (pretty egregiously in two out of 3 routes) just like other lords. They have to earn support and their following just like the other lords. Corrin despite getting Yato, still has to cultivate it to win the day in all 3 routes.
There is so so so so much more to point out in their defense, especially to prove they arent a Stu/Sue.
None of this is to say Corrin doesnt have issues they do. But none of this is fair or accurate. If people are gonna dislike Corrin be accurate about it.
I cant wait to see all the civil comments in this comments section!
As a bad pun i kinda expect people to keep writing "civil" or "civil comment"
The only "civil" comment in this comment section is civil war
With the circumstances of how Corrin was raised I thought most decisions made sense from their perspective. They're a naive, but kind-hearted person who doesn't want to kill people. However, being that sheltered there's just so much Corrin has to learn about the world, most of the time the hard way. Reality... kinda sucks. And it definitely hits Corrin hardest in Chapter 13 after all their work of keeping people alive for the past few chapters. I thought it was interesting at least. Thank you for this video, I like Corrin a lot and it's nice seeing some good-ass analysis :D
Not to mention both his/hers' families much earlier on were basically shouting at him and ordering him/her to side with them, basically giving Corrin maybe a few seconds to think about a decision that would have sweeping consequences for the rest of their ventures. I'd probably have chosen Nohr, too, in their shoes, because they were the family I knew.
Then I'd spend the rest of the campaign regretting it but probably feeling like it was too late to desert for Hoshido, if Takumi's reactions to seeing Corrin afterwards were any kind of indicator.
2:23 - THANK YOU. I've grown so weary of the so-called "reviewers" and "critics" that do nothing but nit-pick random story details and contribute nothing to the broader thematic discussion of the media they seem to be experts on.
I'm glad you made a video on Fates writing, so many people write off Fates writing as "well it's bad, no doubt about that" without actually delving into why as people see it as not worth it. It's important to see how exactly things are bad, if they even are because as we stop discussing these things we start to flanderize the faults and it becomes all the harder to create real discussion on it because these flanderized showings of how things are constructed becomes the common perception.
I personally definitely dislike how this happens to Fates writing in general as I genuinely like Fates supports and think that they're good and it's incredibly difficult to try and get my points across to people who already have their opinions set in stone.
My Thoughts about Corrin, coming from a person that played only Conquest/Revelations (didn't played Birthright yet, will do it in the near future tho):
(and my english is not that good, so Sorry for any mistakes, and if I can't "organize my thoughts properly" in english)
Corrin itself, it's not that bad of a character. It's a naive, sheltered character that does not know the ways of the World, forced into a really bad situation no matter what it chooses, and trying to "save everyone", including someone that does not deserve to be saved (Garon). And that's... an endearing type of Character. Flawed. It's not a deep character by any means, but a character does not need to be deep to be interesting.
The interesting part of Corrin, is that it's flaws are not "Heroic flaws". Picking Celica as an Example: the whole "i'll sacrifice myself to save my friends, even though it's a really low chance they will actually honor the contract" is a completely heroic flaw. It looks dumb from afar, but if you roleplay as her, you can kinda see what they were going for it, and even do something like that. Corrin on the other hand, it's a person abused by it's father, that does the wrong thing because "it will be even worse if I don't do that", and still "try to do damage control". And that's not heroic. And it's even "worse" when we think it's an AVATAR character, as in: it's me in the game. People don't want to be a coward in a videogame if given a choice.
Corrin is an interesting character bodied by the bad writing in fates. Especially in how the games goes out of it's way to make the "story beats happen". It is contrived, and it does not flow well. Like, for example, the infamous scene with Azura and Corrin in Valla (Conquest), that motivates Corrin to actually attack Hoshido. It looks like "hey, we need that story beat to happen, but the character does not have the motivation to do that. What can we do?". And that dragged Azura down the drain WITH CORRIN, because of that stupid decision. It's not the fault of Corrin or Azura, but of the game itself. Or your example of the Chap 13. with Hans. "we need to kill off these characters, show how Garon and his goons act, and show the need for Corrin to "bow down it's head to Garon, even though it KNOWS it's wrong, because if they do anything else it will be worse" for character progression, but not do anything that "stains" the morals of Corrin".
It all boils down to "Fates Writing actually being detrimental to a perfectly fine character concept".
I love your “if that were me personally” framework for silly narrative criticism. I’ve found it really helpful for appreciating some of the great films we’ve gotten this year (Banshees of Innesherin, most of all).
I think the one aspect that this video could have touched on more (though to be clear, this isn’t what I would have personally done - more that I love how you develop your ideas and wish you’d done so more here), would be the relationship between a blatant self-insert character and “if that were me personally”. That dichotomy gets much muddier than the one between, say, Celica and the player.
I don’t know exactly what to say there, but I do think there’s more there.
Anyway, love the video as always Bopper. Can’t wait to watch it again!
I interpret the Hoshido/Nohr choice as a test of morality of Corrin. Even in the chapters before the choice, Nohr is clearly shown to be morally bankrupt. Garon and Hans are both inhumane monsters murdering and kidnapping as they please, and while the Nohrian siblings disapprove, they don't do much to stop their father's bloodshed. Camilla also comes dangerously close to the sadism of her father. Lastly, the siblings KNEW Corrin wasn't one of their own, but kept it a secret. Clearly, they can't be trusted, and siding with them means the suffering of MANY innocent people.
Then chapter 6 rolls around, and Nohr is in a VERY bad light. Corrin loves his adopted family dearly, but it's clear that choosing their side means aiding in Garon's rampage. Clearly, Hoshido is the better choice, morally speaking. But Corrin barely knows his birth family. And thus, he must make a choice:
Does he choose to defend the innocent, or stay with his loved ones?
Birthright Corrin is written overall better than Conquest Corrin, it's just not very engaging (which can be said for Birthright as a whole). Birthright Corrin is more emotionally stable, perhaps because he knows he's doing the right thing. He doesn't doubt himself as much as in Conquest, where he has to enable Garon. He still has difficulty fighting his Nohrian siblings, but he doesn't have to come up with excuses in his head about why it has to be done. Nohr's leadership is a sickness that needs to be removed. Elise, Leo and Camilla eventually understand, but Xander is too warped by his father to surrender, even when doing so is completely beneficial to him. Even his sister's dying words can't reach him.
Conquest Corrin has to fight a nation he feels no hatred towards in the hopes it will reveal Garon's true form at the very end. Even if Corrin orders his army to make no casualties, they are still ruining lives, and anyone Corrin spares becomes easy prey for Hans or Iago. Corrin also fears Xander might execute him if he tells the truth about Garon without enough proof. A fear which Xander confirms to be valid in chapter 27. It's understandable why Conquest Corrin is unsure of himself. He basically chose to become a villain for the sake of his family's love. A love that is regrettably very conditional.
But that's how I interpret the whole thing. I still have no freaking clue why someone like Arthur is on Nohr's side, though.
Not helped by the fact that both families were shouting at Corrin to make a split-second decision to side with one or the other. And in Conquest, Corrin probably felt it was too late to desert back to Hoshido based on Takumi's reactions to seeing him again.
One other reason Fates'story is seen so badly (to the point it may be seen worse than Awakening's story nowadays, when I'm not sure that one is so much better than the other) is that story was an important part of the marketing. It was always going to be particularly under scrutiny.
I'm certain Engage's story won't be judged as harshly since none of us has any hope about it to begin with.
Seriously, if they just made Fates Resident Evil tier camp instead of playing it up as some incredible story based game, it would probably be a cult classic and widely liked by the community
It also doesn't help that the story was changed/rushed.
@@Lechgang It was cut actually. The writer wrote tons of story for it but the game couldnt be made that long so they cut parts of it out and slimmed it down so much that some stuff barely made any sense or there were leaps in logic and scenes that there shouldnt have been.
@@autisonm We need the original Fates narrative more than the Snyder cut.
>I'm certain Engage's story won't be judged as harshly
I regret to inform you that Engage's plot has literally killed puppies
my problems with corrins writing mostly stem from things like "we must invade the entire country of hoshido to have dad sit on a chair that i HEAR has some truth powers, and somehow that is how we get to peace" and "youve gotta jump down the bottomless canyon, source: trust me :)" and other times where corrin's role as the "perfect innocent pillar of morality main character" means that all logic can be suspended as long as corrin says so, all characters must distort their own character traits to go follow corrins plan, and all sorts of nonsense must be contrived to preserve corrins innocence.
To be fair, the chair thing was on Azura, Corrin mentioned it to no one else
Well, if you remember the first couple chapters before the route split, Mikoto, the queen of Hoshido mentions the throne’s ability to show one’s true form. It’s an obvious Chekhov’s gun that only comes up in the Conquest route, but Corrin having heard that from Mikoto, someone who’d obviously know the throne’s power, and Azura, someone who has demonstrated her greater knowledge of the situation makes it pretty believable for Corrin to take their word for it. Especially when you consider that Corrin’s out of options: he can’t turn to Hoshido, his chance to jump ship has already passed and the country at large wants nothing more to do with him, and his Nohrian siblings have repeatedly shown that they’d never truly defy Garon, even for their little/big brother. Corrin has his hands tied, and he’s CONSTANTLY on thin ice around Garon, one slip-up too many and he’s toast. The throne is his only hope to get his siblings on his side.
And as for the whole “jump into this canyon with me guys!” moment, I don’t know. I never played Rev, so I can’t even bullshit out a reason why that’s actually a good decision. I personally would’ve just made them swim to a bottom of a lake, like how Azura accesses Valla in the Conquest route. It’d be a much easier sell to tell everyone to take a dip in a lake than jump into a ravine.
Omg you did it... you showed the funny horse on the roof chapter 🙏
Anyways I hate that you're right 😭😭 we may very well never have another Ike or Micaiah,, Ephraim or Eirika (sidenote but why does Eirika get all the flack when Ephraim's decision was equally as stupid in a different direction 💀)
You're so right about observing a character throughout the course of their narrative! Why is that so hard for some people?? Man it's interesting how the games with the worst protagonists continue to sell the best. But then if IS gave one of those older games a real chance, maybe they'd do better..? Then again would fe fans be able to handle a nuanced lord...... looking at the edelgard discourse probably not
That was a really fun and interesting video 🙏 I trust you enjoyed making it as much as I did watching it! Also inb4 everyone tells you you forgot robin even though you purposely left them out lol
Ephraim's story was worse, I'd argue. It needlessly complicate the plot and don't really play into Ephraim's character. Lyon's disillusion is handled quite poorly.
Erika is just better written because it keeps things simple.
Also, I'm a sucker for sad love story, granted.
If I see someone say that Claude's route is "killing the CEO of racism" in an attempt to attack his writing in Hopes I will flip. Nuance truly is dead
Ah yes Edelgard "no you" Von Hresvelg.
People don't give Ephraim flack for his decision because he's a man. Fire Emblem fans just hate women.
@@twinkling_topaz14 The Himbo/Bimbo split but in fire emblem
I think another thing worth mentioning is how Corrin's faults don't play into the larger thematic ideas of Conquest awfully well and Corrin as a character isn't used to state anything of value. Juxtapose that to an actual protagonist like Dimitri for example, his survivor's guilt, blind thirst for revenge, intense self-loathing, and how he sticks to the past all are used to explore a lot of interesting ideas such as critiquing the troupes of Fire Emblem protagonists, the struggle of learning to move past trauma, the value of living in the moment and stuff regarding atonement and cool stuff like that. I think most really worthwhile stories (like Hamlet for example) utilize the protagonists to punctuate the larger thematic/philosophical perspectives of the work, and like... Corrin isn't really utilized in that sort of way and as a result they feel vapid as a character when trying to analyzing them beyond just the context of their personality, the consequences of their mistakes, n so on.
thats my perspective though, ik not a lottttttttttt of people really think or care about themes with stories but typically themes and how they are communicated are an aspect that i am really drawn to with storytelling cuz i think typically they are usually the core of a story.
You hit the nail on the head with identifying the "what I would/wouldn't personally do" approach to character critique. It's also strange to me that this approach is often directed at female protags that make unfortunate decisions and not male protags. Obviously you can choose Corrin's gender, but why do Eirika/Micaiah/Celica get similar criticism but not Sigurd/Ephraim/Eliwood? Rhetorical question, I know Gamers play FE, but I think what strikes me as sad is that it exists in all fandoms for all forms of media.
Its because it is a valid form of criticism due to characters being the reader/viewers portal into a story. There is a point where following around a character that you see as annoying, dumb, unreasonable, ect will take you out of the story no matter how much it makes sense from a characterization standpoint
In general im with you and bopper where characterization matters and frankly a lot of peoples threshhold is suprisingly low with these things, but it is an actual criticism
That feeling when an actual language arts teacher analyzes fates writing
I actually like Corrin, but more specifically female Corrin. I feel like her supports, and how people treat her in the campaign, make her work better as a character in general (at least for conquest, because I don't remember anything of birthright.)
i love all your video essays, but this one might be a new favorite. i love literary analyses and your perspective is a really eloquent and uniquely agreeable one. |3
I originally played Birthright back when the game released and I treated Corrin as just an avatar for myself and the disconnect I felt made me drop the game.
Then recently I went back but this time I played Conquest, I decided to treat Corrin as her own character and once I did that everything clicked into place and I ended up with a much better appreciation of Corrin and Fates in general.
Im not going to call it a masterpiece of storytelling but its better than people give it credit for.
I actually enjoyed Corrin. I thought she was different from previous lords in that she showed much more emotional vulnerability. Many fans criticize her for being a crybaby, but hell, I would be crying too if I was in her situation! I think it might have something to do with the fandom’s sexist tendencies but that’s a can of worms I’m not ready to unpack. Similar to Eirika, I just wish Corrin faced more consequences as a result of her bad decision making. It would have made her feel like a stronger character.
Great video! It was a very interesting and welcome perspective. (:
I am really confused by this comment.
How can you say that the reaction to Corrin is motivated by sexist tendencies when it's more likely the majority of said sexist players chose the Male Corrin to play? There's not even any difference between the two as far as I know nor is there a strange camp anywhere that likes ONLY male Corrin for being a based chad but dislikes FemCorrin for being cringe and blue pilled.
@@dickking9373 Well, I was referring to f!Corrin specifically in my comment, but the word "sexist" can be replaced with a whole number of other words when it comes to male Corrin. "Men shouldn't cry or show emotions", and all that. I just think the attitude of hating on the character due to their tendency of being very emotional is particularly directed towards f!Corrin and usually accompanied by some sort of sexist attitude. They're the exact same character, but for obvious reasons, the reaction from the fans is different depending on whether they're male or female.
Corrin is always been interesting character to me. There's always a tingling in my mind that said man this character had a lot of potential. And I found it that biggest problem with Corrin come with the medium she was written. She was meant to be a self insert that didn't fill power fantasy.
One thing that I found interesting is that there is actually a better version of Fates in the form of the manga. Now the manga actually did little change to the story that actually make the story much more compelling. One in particular is that they actually established the reasoning behind why Xander personally train Corrin. You see unlike the game where they start the story with conversation on the tower. In the manga family gathering actually happened in the dinner table. In dinner table Corrin, Camilla and Elise enjoying their dinner while wearing dress that was made by Corrin. Leo who is the POV character in the manga by the way ask when did she got all the time to make the dress. Corrin said she has all the time in the tower. The interesting part about the training is also the fact that Xander strongly imply that he want Corrin to enter a tournament and won. That way Xander can appoint her as his personal Knight.
Now the manga is not perfect by any mean. One in particular is the fact that they use the revelation story instead of Conquest. But my point is that I think with just little adjustment to Fates story it could be amazing. Which is why I never cannot put myself to fully hate Fates story.
All fair, except thinking Corrin is hated for not fulfilling a power fantasy. Remember Kris is the biggest example of that and he/she is the most hated FE avatar. I think most of Corrin's character flaws however are a result of just bad writing instead of just being a character stuck in the middle of the situation. People prefer flaws, but Corrin came off more incredibly indecisive throughout the story rather than someone naive and inexperienced and trying to make things work in their new field, like Marth, Ike, and Eliwood were in their stories. Corrin doesn't have to be perfect like Ephraim, who is so tough and strong, it can feel Gary Stuish at times, but Corrin just felt like that he/she just didn't learn anything through his trials and personally, I think the sequence of events that happened were not considerably taken care of well enough for Corrin to justifiably make the decisions made in the story, like how we found out that Garon murdered your "father" in a trick ambush, kidnapped you, wiped your memory clean, and confirmed in both Leo and Hunter support conversations also abused you and then said abusive parent figure uses you as a Kamikaze bomb to destroy your homeland that was looking for you and your real mother. I think if this was after the decision of Hoshido or Nohr, it would make for some suspense on the decision, but seeing that level of neglect and abuse, Corrin (who is supposed to be already experienced with combat and going by other conversations with the Nohr siblings that Garon never shared an ounce of kindness to Corrin since taking them and smiting anyone who tried to rescue Corrin) should with all overwhelming evidence should want to at least want to flip Nohr fr within on their own and not be convinced by Azura to do so.
@@yoder6162 I think problem with Fate writing is not necessarily the writing itself is bad. But rather the execution of said idea are just not well put together. I said it before the manga barely do much change to the story. And yet the first scene manage to establish character motivation and personality better than what the game did in 6 chapter. The manga established how close their relationship are without being to on the nose while at the same time also established that Corrin do want to explore outside world. It also show that Xander do care a lot about his family while at the same time realize that as a future king he always need to tip toe with his political decision. Xander can just easily put Corrin as his personal Knight but he didn't do that cause it's reek of nepotism. So instead he train Corrin personally so she could won the tournament.
Hey Bopper I love your videos but this one is kind of a cop out to me. You spend a lot of time on the criticism of if Corrin should’ve killed Iago in chapter 14, and the narrative around that since release.
But you didn’t mention that since we’re playing fire emblem, corrin has spent the whole game killing people in the game play. Seemingly because it will bring their family and kingdom peace in the long run. You can say we have to take it as a part of their character as a whole and the response is a “cinema sins” type criticism. But Corrin spends 90 percent of their time killing. You don’t address this cognitive dissonance at all.
You then bring in the Freudian aspect of the Id, Ego, and Superego.
Acknowledging that in a moral Superego sense, Corrin should’ve killed him in chapter 14.
On an ego level Iago is going to kill more people and logically they should kill him to save more people.
And on an Id level. Corrin has been killing for the entire game, and this person who has been actively hurting and lying to them physically, shouldn’t have any instincts on that level telling Corrin not to kill. Corrin kills a lot.
I also don’t think this piece of writing should be compared to Erika or Celica at all. Where someone like Lyon has been a lifelong friend of Erika who she’s believes to be in grave danger who we don’t see just slaughter innocent people ten minutes ago.
I know this gonna get the “lol fates hater boomer” response. But I just like am mystified about the recent “fates writing isn’t that bad” narrative that has been going on online. Especially when we have SoV and Three Houses even where it works so much better.
The game goes to extreme lengths to point out that Corrin is not actually killing anyone in gameplay. I had a section in this video about that originally, but cut it because it felt redundant and overly indulgent.
Here’s a cut passage:
“The game points out, from time to time, that Corrin and their army isn’t actually killing any of the soldiers we fight. Fine, sure, but this isn’t actually expressed through any of the gameplay. The way the player fights the human enemies is the same as the Faceless monsters, and the same as every other enemy in the Fire Emblem series.
If we, as players, are meant to seriously reckon with Corrin’s non-violence and the effects that it is, it would need to be reflected in the gameplay, which it is not. We are supposed to take the game at its word that we’re killing nobody, and while this is true narratively, tacitly it doesn’t register.
How would a game like Fire Emblem reflect non-lethality in its gameplay? I don’t know, and I don’t want to spend time crafting a different game, but it’s easy to imagine how much better Fates, and Corrin, would be if the game took influence from works like Deus Ex and Silent Hill 2 where player behavior and aggression directly effects the player character and their stories.”
------------------------
I cut this because I didn’t want to indulge a topic that I’ve addressed elsewhere and I’m increasingly less interested in videos that try to reconstruct games rather than deal with them for what they are.
And, besides, I do think it’s fair to compare this to Eirika because even though Corrin has no loyalty to Hans and Iago, he does to his father and siblings whose approval he constantly seeks. In chapter 13, even Camilla lets Hans go for fear of Garon. Fear and loyalty, like friendship, are powerful forces that can override conviction.
Fates writing is very bad, I just think Corrin specifically is criticized for the wrong reasons. It isn’t them, it’s the narrative around them.
Ok I can see if your criticism is “I wish people didn’t over analyze Corrin, but I acknowledge the game is just written poorly. And Corrin suffers because of that”
I could get behind this line of thought because what was Corrin supposed to do when the game for whatever reason makes this mandate “Corrin isn’t killing anyone”
Which to be fair I didn’t remember, but is there. But the fact that it wasn’t like enforced in gameplay at all can you blame me for forgetting? It’s only said in the tiniest dialogue segments. The whole game I’m moving a unit next to an enemy and selecting which weapon I want to attack them with.
You also bring up the criticism of “outlets hyper focus on this one moment in the story where Corrin is stupid”
But isn’t hyper focusing on Corrin apart from the rest of the writing just doing the same thing the other way? To take them out of the context of the whole game’s writing to praise them feels like just doing the same thing but in the other direction?
I get that discussion about this game’s writing has been happening for a decade at this point. And especially before three houses was toxic.
But I feel like we’ve now entered into “fates wasn’t really that poorly written actually” territory in the other direction. When Three Houses already proved they could still do much better.
And I think the addendum at the end “this is gonna be toxic get ready” sort of paints anyone with a negative opinion of the game as a hater. Which maybe I am, but I don’t feel like my criticisms are that outlandish
“this is gonna be toxic get ready” was in reference to the inevitable Engage discourse, NOT this video's comments section. I'm as big a hater as anyone.
No, I don't think your criticisms are outlandish (I've seen outlandish), and I don't think it's a good look for Fates that the "CORRIN NEVER KILLS ANYONE" angle is so easily forgotten by many players.
I do want to say though, that I never said Corrin is well-written or that Fates is actually good. I think Fates' writing is very bad, but I think people have misattributed it to Corrin, when Corrin's problems are symptoms of larger structural flaws. To put another way: Fates is not bad because of Corrin, Corrin is bad because of Fates. My point is that I think Fates (and Corrin) is not very good, but it's for different reasons than most people give.
Oh if that’s what you meant at the end there about Engage, my bad I just misunderstood that.
I get a little more from your replies that it’s just Corrin never really had a chance to be a super well realized character in context, and they are for sure not the biggest problem with the games writing. So I appreciate the perspective.
And also acknowledge I could do a better job accepting the new direction of the franchise, and the gba era was 20 years ago. Even if I’m never gonna really love the player avatar and more waifu elements
2:20 I already like this video. Seems like one solution is to have the main character be a character and ignore complaints of "I wouldn't have done that" whem said character makes a poor choice (and faces narrative consequences). Another solution is for players to not project onto the main characters when they aren't the ones making the narrative choices.
I think the primary reason why kris corine and bylith struggle is because despire being main charchters or the main charchter they play a vary passive role in the story out side of revelation if they were not their in their respective story's the conflict will likely have happened anyway so as the joke says their choices dont matter other then who wins at the end of teh day because the player picked that path I have some hope that alear will be a more robin type of avatar were I can pretend they are a real character because they are necessary to move the plot forward and having a much simpler plot simmingly like awacking they will have more chances to show personality because they arnt locked into being a player pov that does nothing but still important
This comment is a fantastic example of why punctuation and formatting are important.
I saw someone say something that hit the nail in the head of how I feel about Corrin.
They said that Corrin was a good character when they're *not* the center of attention/main protag self-insert. And it makes complete sense. Corrin is very multifaceted and interesting but the fact that you're forced to "relate" to them and to make everything revolve around them kind of kills their writing
Also why the other Avatar works better (and why people react so badly to Alear). Their role is at the very least shared with the actual Lord of the story, if they aren't pure support (New Mystery is by definition Marth's story with Kris tackled on. Robin is Chrom's Tactician (it's been a while, but until the very end, most of the plot beats are relevant to Chrom moreso than Robin). Byleth is the House Lord's mentor, but they don't really take the decisive actions.
Honestly i never saw Corrin as an avatar and more as a character i can customize his face, so that's probably why i like him
Its crazy that with a few tweeks, Corrin could have been pretty good. Or maybe in another game but, they do be a funny character to talk about.
there actually pretty decent in warriors namely because there not the center of everything and act more like a supporting character
Well, Fates as a whole is kinda an example as to why cutting a story up isnt that good of an idea. The writer actually wrote tons of stuff that didnt make it into the game.
@Alexis Dipoalo they are actually quite good in Heroes as well and it's quite easy to tell Corrin is the artist/writer's favorite avatar character to make because they just keep getting more and more alts in that game with them having like 13 versions so far (15 if you count the special outfits too).
@@autisonm That's because Intelligent Systems were not comfortable with 500 pages each. What should have happened is that o someone should have supervised Shin Kabayashi to make sure he doesn't get carried away.
Friendly reminder that the Awakening Trio were sent to go babysit Corrin, but just were never told that Corrin was indeed the royal they were meant to protect. Another small instance of Corrin’s existence actively making the side characters feel dumber that particularly ticks me off as a diehard Severa fan.
The whole "Awakening trio was brought to Fateslandia by Anankos" thing feels like it was a decision that came afther they were done and added to the DLC than something which they really thought a lot about
Also those characters were simply there because they won a popularity poll
@@renren47618 lol fateslandia
@@renren47618 the Reason for fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligents Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Intelligent Systems wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Nintendo knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung.
Think that’s the fastest 10 minutes I’ve ever had. Really interesting essay bopper, would love to see more of these kinds of videos
Corrin’s my favourite avatar just because she feels the most relatable to me
I've also noticed how a lot of casual players will bash characters in a multiple route story because they aren't aware of things that they shouldn't know yet unless they were metagaming. For example, Eirika being mocked for trusting Lyon despite the fact that *Ephraim* is the one that encounters most of Lyon's more villanous actions.
Normal Phoenix mode, what a casual
Normal Phoenix mode was a good idea. Bring it back, Intelligent S.!
It would be interesting to know your take on Micaiah.
This has been a relatively hyped up video and I could enjoy seeing more frequent videos of this size in the future. It is a bit lean and some of the backend could have been better explored but your discussion of the argument's crux did not waste time. It could have been like 2 minutes longer but it still succeeded in getting my gears turning. I have three big takeaways. One is more a nuts and bolts issue with the video's framing. The second is speculation on a dilemma that first issue generated. The final point is my own thoughts on a Fates character that the video only touches on.
First, is a nitpick, but the title should have Conquest Corrin rather than just Corrin. Aside from the fact that Conquest specifically gets algorithm traffic more than Fates broadly, the bulk of the video's discussion centers on the negativity associated with that route, based on a story playthrough of that route. Don't get me wrong, Corrin is not magically a different character between versions. However, I firmly believe that the scope of the "if that were me personally" mentality kindled the way it did from Conquest Corrin's inaction with terrible situations.
This made me think about why Conquest Corrin is the center of the negativity. Perhaps it is that Birthright has a basic in one ear and out the other story and Revelation garners a broader narrative criticism and an over reliance on plot twists that fizzle out within two maps of being introduced. Conquest, in contrast, gains ire for not living up to the unrealistic hype of playing as the aggressor and reforming from within. That type of premise is a lightning rod for people that would have the "if that were me" attitude you are pushing back against. Another factor in why this backlash focuses on Conquest Corrin that I don't think should be overlooked is how the difficulty may have soured players and made them approach the story more negatively. If a player is slogging through a Hard Conquest map for the first time, frustration with the gameplay can bleed into reading the story. This is why I love that you did Phoenix mode for this as a control variable. But for a lot of players, Conquest has the perfect storm of lofty promises, specific appeal towards people who want to logic puzzle things, and taxing mental stress from the maps.
What surprises me most is how his video has made me unpack Leo. It's odd since he only gets a 2-3 sentence mention, but his reception works with what you've established. The specific flavor of Corrin criticism, the "If that were me personally", is more pronounced through use of Leo as repeated bailout. But for me Leo's three times of stepping in (Pretending to kill the prisoners, killing Zola, then killing Iago) all titillate that superego power trip desires of fed up players. In addition, the major story supplement to Fates, the spin-off manga, has Leo as the protagonist. Years ago when Fates discourse was fresh, I remember hearing people voice that if Fates did not have Corrin, Leo should have been the Conquest protagonist. But honestly that thought makes me sick. In a game with micro level dialogue as dubious in quality as Fates, a macro change from a passive protagonist to an ego trip for every "if that were me personally" type you see in a movie's reddit thread would make me prefer an eye gouging. That said, this is not meant to be a jab at Leo as a whole, as I enjoy his Birthright characterization. Before fighting him, he vents his insecurities before ultimately turning around and warping Corrin to where he needs to be. In that instance Corrin is still bailed out, but only through earning it in combat. It is not perfect and still has some contrived plot magic, but it comes from a skilled magic user so it's not worth harping over. Birthright Leo is decent and used well, rather than as a way to avoid tarnishing Corrin. He gets to be his on character and grows alongside Corrin rather than being a sidestep towards either growing.
Alright I am out of talking points. Unlike Fates I cannot play a cheesy cinematic video as a conclusion so goodbye.
I actually really like the concept of the Chapter 13 ending. Corrin spends Chapter 9-12 trying to subvert the old Nohrian way of doing things, sparing everyone they fight and it goes great for them. Then they get thrown into the biggest skirmish of the game and reality sets in. Corrin is just one part of this very big nation and for every person he saves, Hans or Iago will likely kill 5. This hopelessness feels like it sets up Azura's answer of cursing Garon and cooking up the Hoshidan Throne plot. This issue, like usual, comes in execution. The writing betrays the the turmoil Corrin must be going through and the tone is ruined even further by how Shitty the throne plan is. The Hoshidan Invasion would end up killing WAY more people than Hans ever could and its a bit offensive that Corrin jumps onto it so easily. In general it feels like a lot of Corrin's flaws were never meant to be flaws. The plot never asks them to move past them. There's no scene where Corrin stands up to Xander or whoever and go "hey the way Nohr does stuff is fucked up, you're fucked up and I'm going to change that". They just sit there and ride the plot along as they commit atrocities and literal genocides.
And yeah it sucks knowing that the negative response to characters like Celina, Eirika and Micaiah (I sure hope its a coincidence that these are all women!) means that genuinely flawed character who get called out for their flaws and have to evolve past them are probably done. 3H has shades of this with Dimitri but honestly its hard appreciating him when his arc is so thoroughly tied to the plank of cardboard called Byleth.
Corrin, with all their flaws, is not a character I can call bland. They are extremely naive, too trusting to others, and doesn’t want to kill anyone. These are traits similar to other FE lords but they are especially noticeable to me with Corrin. Why I think Corrin doesn’t kill Hans is because they don’t want to kill anyone, not even enemies. They rather try ordering Hans than kill him.
This is obviously a character flaw. I can’t say this is bland, but I agree that it’s handled poorly. Corrin’s main problem is not them as a character, but the story and characters surrounding them. They’re very important to the other characters for a not so very good reason. They are entrusted to lead an army when there are plenty of other characters, like their royal siblings, that should be leading instead. Most importantly, the story or supports do not explore Corrin’s obvious characters flaws, hence they do not grow making their journey as a character fall flat.
Corrin’s faults I relate to an entirely bigger problem of Fates’ overall writing. It already doesn’t do any favors to other characters like Xander, who is inconsistent throughout all the story routes even though he has some pretty good supports. Corrin has the same problem except their supports don’t do them any favors either, as Corrin’s supports are structured like a typical avatar support conversation, where the supports are meant to help you learn about the other character in question, not really Corrin. So all Corrin has in terms of exploration of their character is the messy story.
Now why despite that do I think Corrin is overhated and still has a lot of potential. Their personality and backstory could work very well, just like the entire premise of Fates. Corrin is a sheltered young royal whose only concept of the world are the small cast of people they interact with and the fairy tales they grew up reading. Now they not only learn their true heritage at the beginning of the game, but they are experiencing the outside world for the first time. The war is the reality check they have to face. That’s very interesting in my opinion, but it’s never explored. Same with a possible internal struggle with the dragon blood in their veins. Imagine if what happened in Grief was a constant struggle Corrin had to deal with. A struggle to contain the dragon inside of them. A desire to maintain their human side. Their dialogue as the Fallen alts in Heroes provide some insight in what that would be like.
That also relates to my final point as to why I don’t hate Corrin but think they were given a bad hand: the spin-offs. Spin-offs like Warriors and Engage allows Corrin to not be the main character or the one in command of the army. Their supports help showcase their child-like innocence and positivity that is expected of someone so sheltered from the world. Corrin is not doomed forever, and I will continue to defend that stance. They are a victim of the larger issue that is good ideas ruined by Fates’ disappointing writing.
This could probably have been resolved if IntSys did branching story paths based on player agency WITHIN the three Fates campaigns, but I guess there is a reason that sort of stuff is hard to find outside of Der Langrisser.
If it were me personally, I just wouldn't have gone to Belhalla. Sigurd's clearly a bad character.
But anyways: Good video Bopper, really captured some of the actual problems with Fates' writing.
This is something more of a general comment, but I adore the recent, more academic (for lack of a better word), discussion towards video games. Obviously this is not new to Boppers work, but using an eloquence and wider subject research you would find in an academic paper just makes video games feel validated as an art form, like literature, and I really enjoy this take on it!
If that were me personally, I wouldn't have let the id do me dirty like that
Thank you youtube for recommending me this channel
I don't think Mauler is boring. Makes me sad you don't like the Longman. Not to mention he would be hurt to be put in the same boat as Cinema Sins. Their styles and methods of criticism are very different.
But I enjoy the video
Tell me you've never watched a mauler video without saying you've never watched a mauler video lol.
Corrin fails as a protagonist because in a game marketed on "YOUR CHOICES REALLY MATTER" they constantly do stupid things that you have no say in, it ain't that deep.
I adore Byleth as a character, but not as a protagonist. Prior to Three Hopes, I didn't hate Byleth but I didn't think much of him either. Three Hopes made me like him as a character for his semi-antagonistic/supporting role rather than him being a protagonist and the simple fact that he talked. It proved to me that a bad protagonist can also be a good character.
Big ups for using Olivier's Hamlet, I recently watched his Shakespeare trio on the Criterion Chanel, and the man is awe inspiring in what he would/could portray/direct. Always nice to see him appreciated. His Richard III was incredible.
I agree with almost every point you made, especially the point about disingenuous criticism of media from people dissolving media scenes to their base parts, other than Byleth being a poor protagonist: they have the personality of a brick, for sure, but I feel the 'nonentity professor' works as a formless prism through which to view the different routes of 3H. In Azure Moon (can't speak for the others), it's Dimitri making most, if not all, of the plot relevant decisions (where do we go, who do we kill, etc), with Byleth being there primarily to build the characters around them, which works for a game with good character writing like 3H. Not to say Byleth is a good protagonist, but a being without form cannot be good nor evil.
I actually really enjoy corrin as a character and I'm really glad you articulated some valid criticism beyond "Well I personally wouldn't do that" when it comes to Corrins decisions. Hope Alear turns out pretty good in Engage
Thanks for the video! It was fun to watch.
I think it's even worse when you realize there are like 5 different versions of Corrin: 1 for each path and 1 for Birthright and Conquest supports.
I also kinda disagree with the point about character "logic" : People behave in a way they believe is rational, and will adhere to core beliefs. Corrin has to juggle being a self insert for the player and an autonimous main character, while also being in a game with really bad writing. My issue would shortened to something like: "CQ Corrin doesn't want to see people die, even 'disarming' enemy combatants, and is also terrified of the consequences of betraying his father. Yet, he is willing to actively undermine and go against Garon as long as he doesn't find out, and is ready and willing to kill some enemies, such as the Kitsune, for much weaker reasons. When placed in a situation where killing 1 person would save numerous innocents, Corrin's core belief at that time is that upsetting his father is worse than letting innocent people live." This is great, but the story is awful at exploring this development in a meaningful way, particularly when Corrin actively seeks ways to publicly betray Garon, like Ch 18 (Garon should definitely have heard about this, regardless if Zola dies, and be mad). Additionally, half the roster at the time of chapter 13 seem to similarly do nothing about the killings, when they definitely would at least voice frustration or sorrow at their inability to stop it.
The weird thing is, in Fire Emblem Warriors, Corrin is actually well written, because they’re not the center of attention or a self-insert for the player, and that lets their own personality come through, and I actually really like Corrin in Warriors.
i think im pretty lucky to be honest, i love games with great stories, they are some of the best parts of games for me and i can appreciate a great story especially and can understand why. But bad stories dont really bother me, i can enjoy them all the same, i just take it at face value when a story is told with confidence and sincerity. sure, i can identify afterward the faults of a narrative after the fact but it dosnt really matter at that point, i can still have fun
the "if it were me personally" bit resonated with me so hard like there are some great stories out there like for example titanic that get shit on all the time by people who forget that the point of a movie isn't to be something that could actually happen it's just supposed to send a message like
What I think you didn’t touch on as much was the idea of "internal consistency" with a character's actions. I think people get so bent out of shape about Eirika and Celica's decisions because we haven't been given sufficient info on them to make those choices make sense. If we can identify an illogical choice still as something that character would absolutely do, then people are usually fine.
Its not FE, but my favorite example of illogical MC's that people still love would be Luffy and the Strawhat Pirates from One Piece. Each and every character in this group has some sort of massive quirk or disfunction to them, and they are scarily consistent across nearly 1100 chapters of manga.
Luffy, the protagonist, may be the least logical person you meet. Still, every action he takes makes complete sense, considering what you've seen before. For example, the crew arrives at a town frequented by people reffered to as "World Nobles" who are just absolute pieces of work. The story stresses over and over "just bow and turn a blind eye to whatever they do" until 1 too many things happen that piss Luffy off, and he punches a Noble in the face. A reader could easily anticipate Luffy would do such a thing, despite how awful and illogical a decision it is, because he's consistent and well-realized.
Compare this with the Eirika scene. What do we learn about Eirika that makes that scene internally consistent? I saw somebody here mention how Ephraim is the one that saw all of Lyon's evil deeds, but Ephraim and Eirika had met up at this point. You think they wouldn't talk about their childhood best friend going down the wrong path?
The biggest issues is just how limited the writing and storytelling are for Eirika and the gba FE games in general. Maybe Lyon's appeal to her at the end of the chapter was JUST THAT GOOD? Maybe he gave an Oscar winning performance that shattered any doubt Eirika had. We just don't know, because all we get are static profile images and some fairly dry text.
Undoubtedly there's still people that simply apply the "well, if it were me..." rational and leave it at that though. This was a fun listen regardless. I understand you can't cover everything.
Hello, Bopper. I wanted to ask about your thoughts on the prose and story of Awakening. I’ve been playing through it again to try and beat Apotheosis and I’ve honestly been surprised by how much I enjoyed both how the story fits together and the words used to express that.
I haven’t read Awakening’s story all the way through in a long time. It’s probably what I’m gonna do after Engage!
That makes me very excited!
I have no issues with Corrin being a character who makes dumb decisions, some of my favorite characters ever like Denji from Chainsaw Man are also like that. My issue is that when characters make dumb decisions, the it should generally be clear to the audience why the bad decision is being made and proper consequences for certain actions would make it clear that the story also understands that what being done is dumb. Everyone on Corrin’s side except for the blatantly evil characters like Garron, Hans, and Iago coddles them and are basically just yes-men. Corrin’s treated like a chosen one despite constantly making mistakes. This really has to do with Corrin also being written as a self-insert avatar for the player’s power fantasy to get with their preferred waifu. Corrin would have really benefited from having a critical lieutenant/right hand man like Azura or Silas who constantly challenged and questioned Corrin’s decisions.
Btw great video! I also despise the cinemasins approach of evaluating storytelling lmao
Excellent video as always, Bopper!
I definitely think that the ultimate problem is that IS wants the avatars to be stand-ins for the player. The avatars frequently lack any meaningful consequences or serious blowback, and all of the other characters tend to love the avatars, because IS wants players to see themselves in those characters. Until they can break free from that, I sadly feel like we're doomed to very bland and safe avatars going forward.
Corrin like his whoole game is overhated, Corrin isn't a bad character yes he make dumb things but What Do you expect for someone who spend all his live isolated in a Fortress in the middle of nowhere? A character isn't are bad writte If it dosen't follow you moral or your logical is only bad writte If them don't follow their own logic and Corrin is consistent with that the only major issue with Corrin is his lack of character development but for the most part Corrin is a Ok character
The only saving grace Corrin as an avatar has is, that they let Byleth literally merge with a goddess. MC writing doesn't get lazier than that.
I think the laziest writing is really making a silent protag for the player to choose the options because it really changed little if anything if byleth can't speak like usual.
3 hopes helped at least
respectfully; i have almost always thought people's critique of corrin being too centred on the narrative is a bit surface level, considering that i think it's in this aspect that corrins character is (imo) elevated through the parallels between them and azura. yes corrin is the centre of the narrative, yes everyone is paying attention to them and holds them as the centre of the entire war and conflict, and as a result is given an unbelievable amount of influence. azura however is the exact opposite, a complete non-entity in the eyes of both hoshido and nohr, and anyone who does recognise her as a member in the conflict views her as a malicious actor (see saizo and silas' supports with her, conquest chapter 9, and takumi in chapter 5 among others im sure), and as a result is extremely limited in the actions she can take. the irony in this however is while corrin WILL affect world at large (it's the one thing the story requires you to suspend your disbelief on), they only really start to make headway due to azura's contributions to their efforts. she pulls leo away from nohr in birthright, she comes up with the plan to expose garon in conquest, and she tells corrin the truth about it all in revelation. however whatever azura does is dependent on the actions corrin takes. meaning that while azura is the linchpin to the plot, corrin chooses where to throw the grenade. she has no influence. she can make no choices that will change the course of history, but corrin themself can't do much without her. note that hans' massacre in chapter 13 happens right before azura and corrin concoct the plan to expose garon in chapter 15, the former being an event that eats away at corrin throughout chapter 14. the plan instils corrin with a new hope that revitalises them for the coming war (a hope that gets tested a million times). in it's this dichotomy that makes corrins importance feel more rounded out to me, less like a "let's make the player feel special" (which it certainly is don't get me wrong) and more of an intentional narrative choice. i know fates is still a mess, like corrin being the centre of everything still could've been handled better, and azura knowing everything is very weak due to the lackluster worldbuilding, but i do think overall fates narrative is hyper scrutinised - its no masterpiece, but i don't think it's a shit stain upon literature. (this was a bit of a ramble i don't know where i was going or where i ended up thank you for reading if you did)
I like what you have to say
This is honestly one of your best videos in my opinion. Extremely well written and paced and interesting to listen to. 👍🏽.
It’s fine to have protagonist you dislike, as long as you can understand why they are acting the way they are or have some kind of redemption arc or growth. And I feel like Corrin has neither of those, and that’s causing the major issues as you described in the video.
I think if he/she were an actual character, and not an avatar character/an extension of the player, he would probably be better received because it would be easier to look at him from an outside angle. Still bad, but probably slightly better.
L
My first reaction to hearing someone point out inconsistencies with a story is also suspicion; usually my go to answer is to "just roll with it". To me, inconsistencies are fun trivia more than actual bad writing, because if they were, they would have broken my immersion in the story and I would not be taking the story seriously in the first place. Inconsitencies can cause such a thing to happen, I'm sure, but I don't really know of too many stories that pull it off that are not satire. Also, about the character flaws section, I also agree. I recently saw a very interesting video on "Idiot Plots" that mentionned character flaws in a similar light. Perfect characters are not interesting, but we tend to want to make them as such. The "Celica and Eirika = dumb" argument never meant anything .to me, since it doesn't pass as meaningful critique to me.
However, I distinctly remember hating every second of Corrin. I went into your video with an open mind, I think, ready to be challenged on my beliefs and... well, I realise now what it is. At the time I played it I hated fates as a whole and it's characters, but especially the fact that Corrin kept getting praised without merit aswell as his entire character being essentially "I betrayed my family for the other once, woe is me. Pity me and adore me now". There was one thing that annoyed me a lot: "I made my choice". That's what he during one of his taunts in smash bros. Bitch, that choice was the only meaningful choice you took, get over yourself. I realise it's less of an objective reaction to Corrin, but hate is subjective in nature, and Corrin is a good subject to hate.
you say it’s not as simple as “if it were me personally” it is though, and that’s the problem. Having Corrin as an avatar character encourages the player to think as if they were Corrin, leading to people criticizing everything illogical that they wouldn’t do
The true big brain move from IS would've been to give you a textbox choice, and getting the player executed by Garon prompting a bad ending.
You wanted to play hero in such a disadvantageous position, become a martyr then.
10:33 whined? My issue with Celica is that people thought she was in the right when she met up with Alm after the time skip. It's fine if characters make mistakes but the issue is that lot of people didn't see it as a mistake
You can always count on Bopper Boy to make insightful videos filled with unique takes and structured arguments. However, you forgot to add that Corrin is good because feet
ANOTHER CORRIN FAN!!!!
I'm a Corrin fan. You mentioned someone giving a defense of Corrin. You helped Defend Corrin
Corrin, you are a product of your environment ✨️
Something very important to take note of is that Fates' story was massively cut down from what the writer created because of time and budget constraints.
It’s interesting to here corrin is so divisive for this reason. Personally I couldn’t get into Corrin because I disliked their base character, a naive sheltered pacifist. Like I know Corrin was sheltered from Nohr cruelty but I couldn’t shake my desire for Corrin to be well less corrin. Realizing the game wasn’t for me and having gotten busy with college I ended up dropping it and never picking it up again.
As a Corrin fan who has him as my favorite lord, i will just say cool desing, concept and i really like how he's written in some moments but he could be waaaay better and suffers a lot from Fates writting (especially on CQ), they also try their best to clean Corrin of any guilty for killing certain characters or even try to tone down the true consequences of what Corrin did(example: Takumi in the spirit realm forgiving Corrin, your choices would hit way harder if Corrin didn't had that scene, there is also the moment where Corrin wants to spare Zola on CQ which makes no sense for him to choose that in that point of the story, Corrin should've aleardy had his growth when Zola attacks on CQ)
If Corrin is well written or not... Corrin isn't well written, but the character itself is fine, his supports are great, his character in the spin offs which he participates is decently better and Corrin has some cool moments even on Fates itself
I like him
I personally adore Corrin since Fates was my first FE game and I wish Fates had more development time to flesh things out. Fates biggest issue was both the unfinished rushed writing of the game and the tug of war structure of if Corrin is their own character or a self insert for the player to view the world. In development there were 2 writing teams, one for the main story and the other for support conservations. Things didn't go well and it's the reason why characters like Corrin and Xander are so inconstant between plot and supports.
I personally believe IS should have ditched the whole self insert character customization mechanic that was heavily marketed and focus on making Corrin their own character with more personality differences between genders. Since Female Corrin ironically won the hearts of fans including myself and became the lead gender IS associates with Corrin in Fe Heroes, Warriors, and Engage.
Combine that with a focus on Corrins character growth, Giving the plot time to breath and not making Corrin the center of it, Real in game consequences for each path and choices, A heavier focus on minor nations such as the Kitsune/Wolfskin like the Tullius series did, and cutting FE Revelations entirely along with Valla and replacing it with a better narrative. Fates and Corrin could have ironically been one of the best FE games and Lords in the series. If you want a game that FE Fates could have been I suggest looking at Square Enix Triangle Strategy.
protagonists can make stupid decisions but they need good reasons to make these decisions. they need to have their motivations fleshed out. hamlet does this well, FE doesnt. radiant dawn invented a plot device just to give an excuse for two sides to fight. in fates it's more or less the same. there's even another plot device so azura can't tell u garon is evil. these are narratively uninteresting at best and excuse plots at worst. it got old by the fourth time garon told me to kill someone, I didn't, and I just kept going on crying and saying sorry to my former siblings. there's a fine line between tragedy and pointlessness.
fire emblem could've had some AMAZING war stories but they manage to piss them all away bc they cant think of any reason why two good people would fight other than someone forced them to.
My biggest problem isn't Corrin's decision making, it's
1) the fact that everyone loves them, and that the universe seems to revolve around them (until they hate them that is). If there ever was a Mary sue or Gary Stu in Fire Emblem, Corrin is it.
2) For being locked up in a tower their entire lives, it is not believable that they should be a leader of anything, or inspire anyone. Despite not having any training in politics and negotiations or with talking to other people outside the castle or leading troops into combat, Corrin has a remarkable amount of skill in many areas (or at least the world tells us that much) and does not exhibit any of the psychological and social issues someone would likely develop with such a life.
3) In Conquest, it does not make sense why Xander would follow Corrin either. Xander's experience of the world, of politics, of combat, etc. far exceeds Corrin. The same could be said for Ryoma as well.
4) His constant whining is really grating, especially in Conquest. It's extremely repetitive.
I also don't think it's the player's fault when they say, "I wouldn't have done that". Corrin is the avatar character. The player chooses their gender and personalizes them. It's THEIR character. It's only natural people would complain when that character does not act the way they want them to. The entire avatar setup does not work for Fates.
There’s one other detail with corrin that while I wouldn’t consider as problematic as what you’ve already spoken about,
But the games goes to great lengths to make corrin seem flawless, which is inherent unrealistic character design.
5) Allowing to be romantically involved with your "siblings".
It destroy the central l conflict, if none of them are related to you in any way. It's about going with Team Good Guys or Team Bad Guys (,or paying for the only right path), and it makes one of the choice obviously, clearly wrong in terms of story.
Once again, it's the story not committing
1. I usually not a fan of people using Mary sue as character criticism because people love to move the goal post. Which is why what is your standard for a character being a Mary sue?
2. I think you exaggerated this point to much. Corrin never leave the castle. But that doesn't mean he doesn't learn anything. It's established in the game and support conversation that the family often visit her. Not only that Jacob and Felicia are there as her personal maid/butler. Not to mention Xander and Gunter did train her personally. Also not to mention Silas and Corrin had been friend since childhood. Corrin is sheltered but she's not isolated by any mean. So expecting her to have mental issue is a bit to much.
3. I think you also mistaken this part as well. It's clear Garon assign all of his child into different mission. So what happen is that they join to help out Corrin on her mission there. If you are on a mission and someone join your mission they didn't just instantly outrank you. That's not how chain of command work. Unless you fucked up a mission. You will most likely assigned as the leader of said mission.
Also in contrast with previous point as well. It is shown multiple time that Corrin is not the most capable leader as we learn that she took advice from the more experienced unit like Leo, Camilla, Xander even Silas.
@@riqua27 "I think you exaggerated this point to much. Corrin never leave the castle. But that doesn't mean he doesn't learn anything"
You can't learn to lead troops in battle in a full scale war by reading a book. Commanders typically need 13-15 years of service. Generals over 20. Corrin has 0. ZERO!
@@Katie-hb8iq But Corrin didn't lead full scale war right away. She was sent to multiple different mission before leading the big war. And she manage to do the mission without fail. Which is why she entrusted with bigger role.
Also you cannot fully justify real life logic to fiction logic. Real world didn't have dragon morphing Waifu with Flaming chainsaw sword.
Also bro that criticism should apply to basically all FE lord. All of the FE lord are in their late teens or early 20. And yet they lead a full scale war. Are you going to stay with criticism to all of FE lord as well?
I think the most sincere and wholehearted defense of Corrin comes from conceptual enjoyment. People who want to defend Corrin like the concept of their character, whereas I feel for the most part the critics don’t have that. I feel that the defense of corrin comes from the idea that they already like them, and have separated them from the story which they participate in. I feel that this is somewhat harmful to meaningful discussion and criticism because discourse of the topic then becomes a war of taste and microscopic contrivances, rather than looking at the story and everything in it as a whole. You CAN technically look at an individual scene in a game, or a play, or a movie, as you did in the video, and say it is good, but when the rest of the work which it is a part of serves to unintentionally undermine the purpose, quality, or emotional weight of that scene, that’s a severe problem.
As someone who doesn't really care about story in games I think it is a fine distraction. I like Fates for the gameplay and music (tho I do need to replay Birthright one day. Did Conquest recently and currently play Rev and have a lot of fun.).
I still prefer Corrin over Byleth. Byleth is just nothing as a character which I think is way worse.
I truly believe Corrin is the most misunderstood character in the series and nobody else comes close.
Corrin isnt disconnected from the story. The things they do constantly affect the world and/or him and his allies, as the route you are playing continues.
Whether it be the many Hoshidans who perish or have their lives ruined because of their refusal to side with Hoshido.
Whether it be Corrin who made the choice to recruit Zola, only for it to almost cause their demise. Which had objections.
Or Corrin losing two out of 4 siblings in both routes which does cause major ramifications. Yes there is peace between the kingdoms no matter what, but a scarred Hoshido losing Ryoma and Takumi ontop of losing their queen is only going to make their lives miserable.
Xander was supposed to be next in line but now suddenly Leo is expected to rule since he is gone. Corrin's choice objectively causes the world to change dramatically. We may not get to see the outcomes but you cannot tell me this isnt a big deal.
Corrin's choices ensures the world obtained peace as was destined. That is simply a giant contradiction to the idea Corrin is disconnected from the story.
There is also this case with Hans. Corrin didnt kill Hans because that A. They had just finished a fight with the rebels and B. Garon absolutely will catch wind of Corrin attacking the Nohrian army. Iago is already watching them as is. Corrin already has to walk on eggshells as is. d
Deliberately attacking Nohrs army would be bad.
There is also the amazing growth Corrin undergoes in BR which cemented them as one of the best lords in series. I'm dead serious about that.
You mentioned how Leo bails out Corrin in the prologue chapter. But what people fail to understand is this is supposed to set up Corrin's core values. Their values will be tested and in the event of CQ changed.
Corrin is to an almost self destructive degree, selfless. We get to see that selflessness eat away at him in BR or suffer because they arent allowed to be selfless when siding with Nohr. It is all for the purpose of building him up.
I've never seen a more misunderstood character and I wanna change that.
I do appreciate you pointing out the obnoxious comment that is "if that were me" as it is a nothing statement. So this was a nice video. I just really wanted to say my piece.
*slams desk* THANK YOU
I 100% agree.
There are just like any other "kind hearted naive" lord. No different.
While I greatly dislike FE Avatars for the artificiality of their presence as self-inserts, Corrin is the one that bothers me least because they do at least have those observable flaws that allow them to feel like actual characters - even if the story rarely follows up on those flaws in meaningful ways. I have no expectations whatsoever for Alear; at best I hope they're bland and easy to ignore.
What about Shez?
@@yoder6162 I consider them an improvement over Byleth, although because Three Hopes is a spin-off and because the game still pivots around Byleth to a sometimes illogical extent it's tough to think of Shez as not being secondary to a different Avatar.
Good video! I very much agree with your opinions here on Corrin. One problem I do have though is you only focus on Corrin in the Conquest route, when there's two other routes to critique Corrin's writing in as well. I know Conquest is the route Corrin gets criticized in the most but I would have loved to see analyses on why Corrin's writing in Birthright and Revelation doesn't work either.
Honestly, I can buy Eirika handing over the stone to Lyon. Lyon has already used the stone in the past to cure other people and Eirika wants to believe that there is a way to save him.
I see her action as less of her being a naive but more that the Demon Lord was cunning.
You don't get to hear that in the Eirika route directly (from what I remember) that Lyon is able to retain some of his humanity. Eirika is told that great will is needed to shake off the Demon Lord's influence and to give up on Lyon by people like L'Arachel. Problem is that Eirika spoke to seemingly mostly normal Lyon who was in pain. On Ephraim side, Ephraim is mostly exposed to the Demon Lord version of Lyon that spouts every lie possible to hurt the twins (like how Lyon's soul is gone and devoured) but after Ephraim's stone get destroyed, the remaining will of Lyon talks about how he was trying not to let the Demon Lord win. This is why the Sacred Twin weapons were not destroyed. Lyon wanted to be stopped. So he left what was needed to bring the Demon Lord down.
Demon Lord didn't let himself be thwarted completely so he used the connection that Lyon did have to Eirika to manipulate her into giving him the stone. Eirika was right that there is a part of Lyon left that was intact. Problem was that he was gone by that point and nothing could save him.
Not to mention that Eirika handing over the stones changes nothing. Had she refused, she would have been bound with magic just like her brother and everything would have played out the same.
Problem with Corrin is that while you can infer why they act the way they do, they don't really talk about it. They agonize over the bloodshed but don't try to find anyway to end it effectively. Just letting their siblings clean up their mess for the most parts. Leo and Xander try to mitigate the bloodshed in their own ways but it doesn't seem like Corrin just do much in the game, just things are happening around them. Any of their wrongdoing is waved away with "but no one was killed, trust me bro".
I honestly don't blame Corrin for the mess the story is. Considering that Corrin's parentage alone is obscured until you get far enough in the game or S rank one of your supposed siblings, no wonder they are a mess.
A year later i can confirm that statement did not date this video.
I love listening to bopper talk
Really good analysis. It's interesting to think that, in the time I've spent on this channel, I've grown enough media literacy to actually understand what the fuck you're talking about. I personally really enjoy the gameplay of Fates and tacitly enjoy the story; much like a hostage enjoys their extended vacation. It's been a while since I've played through it so maybe it'd be infinitely worse than it usually is, but there's something charming about the boring, cookie cutter personalities, combined with Sophie activating three skills in the same turn to completely obliterate some poor grunt, then doing it 7 times in a row because no weapon durability. It's campy for me, the mix of awful storytelling and stupidly addictive skill activation noises.
There are inklings of a story : I think you're on to something because Corrin isn't a completely flat character, but damn is the quality of the writing truly awful. It's a bit like looking at the recipe for a cake, then being told that it's your job to imagine the resulting cake, but the recipe is written in Egyptian Hierogplyhs and the measurements are all wrong so the cake comes out tasting of flour and wasted potential. Fates never really goes far enough to actually flesh out anything, that's its cardinal sin more than anything else. A lot of criticism just latches onto this point, without exploring the WHY. Why would they have written in this way is a far harder question to answer, and it takes some modicum of integrity to go for that, as opposed to the low hanging fruit.
I think you've hit the reason as to why it feels so vapid in proposing that harm done to the player character is invariably seen by the authors as harm done to the player. It creates a sort of conservatism that is anathema to good media and art. If people aren't going to like Corrin going through some sort of arc with actual struggles and stakes and drama between meaningful characters impacting relationships, then why bother constructing such a thing, just throw together some leftover story ideas and call it a day. I think Fates is a really great case study in the corporatization of Fire Emblem and media franchises as a whole, not in the least because of its god awful monetization.
I think when your leads function as self inserts in a video game context, this is pretty unavoidable. It's a little like the everyman protagonist in other media. Modern FE Lords are ultimately a gamification of that trope, and I think it carries that same DNA in how it connects the audience to a person by giving them no discernable personality beyond the relatable struggle of unfamiliarity in a strange place and a vague notion of hardship. It's very one-note in that sense, it can't be any more and it limits what they can do with a lord character (who is ideally an interesting character as opposed to a bundle of numbers). The physical barrier that blocks the player from the protagonist, only allowing an emotional connection, opens a great deal of creative opportunities in film that I hadn't realized before seeing this video, mostly because film doesn't prohibit these options as much as a self-insert in a game would. A movie self-insert is comparatively more free to change, since that direct linkage is more muddy. Relatability can more naturally be part of their character without turning into a direct conscious attachment. I'd liken it to the difference between seeing a loved one in peril and seeing someone in a car crash on film. There's a degree of separation in the second, dependent on the level of film quality, yada yada; whereas games can very easily replicate the feeling of the first, because when they place you in someone's head and you control their very actions, it is much much easier to assume yourself as part of the same consciousness or ego (which is the Bopper Word of the day). That's what makes video game storytelling so powerful and seductive. I think Fire Emblem doesn't really get the other half of that coin, how these characters who can serve as extended headspace for us can also exist on their own merits, or at least the series has unlearned that lesson, for one reason or another.
Joined the patreon. Here's to more silent film references.
One thing that I hate about Fates is the Kitsune/Wolfskin slaughter. More so the Kitsune cause Conquest is written to be Corrin getting their face pushed into the situation they’re in and at every turn them skirting around Garon’s orders to be less violent. But when Corrin acts on their own to find an alternative route around the Hoshidan forces enclosing on Mokushu, they begrudgingly accept slaughtering a bunch of Kitsune who are afraid of getting poached for their fur. But it’s okay because it was either an innocent, unaffiliated tribe who has bad relations with humans or us fighting Hoshido :) - Azura. But this also has no effect on Corrin either as it’s forgotten about the next chapter. Iago doesn’t ”praise” Corrin. Hans doesn’t call Corrin a hypocrite. It doesn’t even weigh on their heart after getting shot by Takumi.
What confuses me is how they did moderately well with Robin but then couldn't do the next three avatars right at all. Like what the hell?
Sure robin wasn't perfect either with him being a "amnesiac" and chrom making him his tactician after one battle, heck even Frederick was basically us questioning it.
Fates' concept is great, a royal hoshidoan who was raised in Nohr and now might have to choose a side (or both if playing revelations). The writing was just terrible.
Also Scarlet got screwed over hard in the game.
Bro I had forgotten about Spec Ops the Line. Thank you for bringing back all my young boy guilt I felt in that moment 😂
i'm actually curious if corrin made any good choices.... i played fates often and the only maybe good choice they make was maybe not killing camliea in birthright... or trying to go through the animal tribes lands to avoid enemies chacing them. i legit can't think of any others that weren't obviously a bad idea, likely to back fire or ( as the game often points out ) a horrible idea ( normally involving zola )
I think the issue is, the avatar should not be the main protagonist. Azura also had ties to both sides and could easily take their place.
it is weird that i actually think robin and beyleth were okay avatar's. kris and mark..... not so much
robin was never invasive to the story they were in and for the first half of it weren't more than the brains of the chroms army and while i have a few questions about grima and time traveling even to this day, at least most of the story makes sense and he doesn't make me cry inside every time i have to read a support chain or the story. ( also i think they bounce off other's much better than any other avatar which admit isn't a huge bar to reach on account that one doesn't speak, one is basically just an affinty chart, one doesn't shut up about his grandfather and the last Lir tally doesn't speak outside of a single random spoken line near the begining )
beyleth while horrible in 3 houses i think becomes more well-rounded due to 3 hopes, still unsure why the heck they became a teacher, they should of became a church knight or something along those lines helping the students learn and grow through there experience's as a mercenary as opposed to what they ended up doing ( sadly kris and mark i don't have as much good things to say )
I agree with you here
Don't you mean third avatar protagonist? Robin exists too y'know
Anyways, no, Corrin isn't well-written. The whole universe revolves around them as if they're the only thing that mattes. everyone loves them to death except Takumi initially and a bunch of Saturday morning cartoon villains, they're unfit to lead the army, and they make a bunch of mistakes, but are shielded from having to learn from their mistakes as a result of their siblings saying they're perfect the way they are. Since Alear seems to be taking a few steps from Corrin, I really hope they don't repeat the dumbest aspects of Corrin either.
I address Robin in the pinned comment
the Reason for fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligents Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Intelligent Systems wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Nintendo knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung.
good video is it ok if I ask you a question
Yes
@@ProfessorBopper ok what are your thoughts on byleth while no where near as hated as corrin there plenty of people who don't like them as especially a silent protagonist. what do you think?
I’m not a huge Byleth fan, mostly because Byleth is silent. It keeps Byleth from being frustrating, but it also makes the game harder for me to engage with since there’s just a nothing-burger of a protagonist that somehow is the center of this universe
This is cool and all but where’s the steel lance video bopper
I wonder how people's perspective of Corrin would change if the game was played from Felicia/Jacob's perspective.
Not sure if this character is bad character when you see the number of views on video Corrin & Azura Support Conversations.🤔
Still if not for Corrin we wouldn't got Kana.
This is why Byleth works so well IMO. Corrin is stuck between being a Player Insert and a character of their own, and as you pointed out, that causes a lot of issues in the story.
Byleth, by largely lacking a personality, can commit to one side and do it well. Their actions are rarely questioned because it's usually not them making the decisions but other characters instead. The only meaningful choice Byleth makes is the one YOU make, so you never have anyone to blame but yourself.
Compare this to Corrin, where Conquest is the obviously wrong decision to make, yet if the player chooses it, a defined character like Corrin has to have a justification for why they did it. Corrin can't abandon Nohr because of the player choices, which is once again a big clash between the "Character" and the "Avatar".
Ah, Fates story discussion, I'm sure this will end well in the comments
Like most aspects of Fates's story, a lot of the ideas surrounding Corrin are good, but poorly executed. The idea of a naive, sheltered, idealistic prince/princess caught between two kingdoms, who desperately wants all of all of their various siblings/step-siblings/parents/step-parents to get along and be happy when the situation is utterly irreconcilable and one or more of the characters they want to be loved by is utterly irredeemable, is an interesting premise. Having Corrin be a flawed protagonist who makes questionable decisions in that position makes sense. But the issue is that the game never seems to acknowledge that Corrin is making questionable decisions in the first place, and therefore what could have been a thought-provoking and emotional story instead feels shallow and hollow.
Also, as a side-note, I think there are certain scenes with Corrin that go overboard and make them feel overwhelmingly incompetent for no real narrative reason. For me, I was never bothered by Corrin not killing Hans, or that they continue to foolishly take orders from their comically evil father. There are plenty of good explanations you can come up with for that. But here's the dialogue at the start of Chapter 11 Conquest that bothers me a lot more:
Corrin: Well, it took some doing, but we've finally arrived at Notre Sagesse. The ferry ride over was rather smooth too. Perhaps our luck is improving.
Silas: Perhaps. Although, I must admit, I can't shake this strange feeling I have...
Corrin: Oh? Is something the matter?
Silas: Well, King Garon said this place would be overflowing with Hoshidans. And yet we were able to disembark from the ferry without so much as a scuffle.
Corrin: That's a good point. I was so happy that we arrived safely, it hadn't occurred to me.
Like, who tf after being ordered to "subjugate" a place full of enemy soldiers, just walks in there and doesn't question why there are no soldiers there? Rather than characterizing Corrin as someone inexperienced, it just makes it hard to take the game seriously. Especially since I'm not sure it even is supposed to be characterizing Corrin as inexperienced, because no one really calls them out for it. And this isn't the only example of dialogue like this in the game.
I could tell this wasn't going to seriously give Corrin a fair shot since out the three versions Conquest was chosen, the one with the weakest writing out of the three but I never expected Corrin to be used to pivot to a rant against avatar characters in general. As you can guess I don't agree with either.
The writing in BR and Revelation is honestly worse, and I believe I that CQ is the only route that does anything even remotely interesting with the character. So, to return, anyone who thinks the other routes are written better aren’t serious
@@ProfessorBopper
A weak reversal, considering the other videos that go far more in depth with Corrin and/or Fates as a whole. (even going so far as analyzing all three routes) But after this comment I'll leave you be. I'm sure both of our time is better spent elsewhere.
Damn right, Conquest is the only interesting route.
i would be scared of both of them
That bit about "Oh, if it were me personally" is a good portion of character debates in RWBY and I felt that