Before You Buy Another Road Bike With Disc Brakes. Upgrade Idea. Dual Pivot Brakes
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2018
- Some Dual Pivot brakes examples:
Shimano 105, standard mount tidd.ly/67048fe1
Shimano 105 Direct Mount tidd.ly/1aedb98d
Shimano Ultegra, standard mount tidd.ly/3d436654
Campagnolo Potenza Direct Mount tidd.ly/c57756ff
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Wow, I never knew about the duel pivot breaks! Thanks so much. Great video 🙏🙏🙏
This is a good video dude. Thumbs up ! Not many people realize that this is an important feature on a bike, which makes direct dual pivot stand out and get closer to the braking performance of disc brakes.
Dual pivot brake is an upgrade over a outdated mecanism. I can't even start to describe the superiority of disc brakes over pivots brakes: security, modulation, speed, tremendous improved wheels durability, and so and so and so on. If you want to buy a new road bike, buy a disc one. It's the future in the present. You won't regret.
So expect to see them in The Tour this Year ?, No.
Fred West...This is a spurious argument!! Tour teams aren’t using them just yet due to issues regarding wheel changes,costs and weight in particular. Performance wise discs are vastly superior.
I've also found Jagwire compressionless brake housing to be a worthwhile upgrade. That and making sure every line is cut clean and strait, filed, and topped with a metal cap. Jagwire even includes special brake housing caps for the newer Shimano brakes. Lastly, and this is also true for disk brakes, is to keep the braking surface clean.
Just for clarification: All of them are "Dual Pivot Brakes". Newer one is "Symmetrical Dual Pivot" (emphasis on symmetrical) or "SLR EV Dual Pivot" as Shimano likes to call them. Two mounting bolt models are "Direct Mount"
I would agree, as demonstrated in the video that without a rim; for a dual pivot brakepads does not meet symmetrically. With a correctly sized rim in place it will be very close in symmetry. Imho inner routing placement (dependant on frame) and outer cable length play a more important role to cause spongy rear brakes. My findings for dual pivot Shimano brakes (as they are the first major groupo for direct mount) work very very well indeed. I am a campy user and brake pads meet the rims at the same position symmetrically as well.
I do not understand this amount of hate and discussion about are these dual symetrical or wjatever calipers... It does not matter, the fact is that the man is right, it is cheaper to upgrade to modern and more powerful type of caliper brakes then to buy a new bike just to have disk brakes. I had ultegra 6800 and now new ultegra R8000 on a road bike and disk brakes on my mtb. On dry there is no diference, and on wet only if it is pouring like hell you can hear a bit of a sqweak and maybe 5% loss in braking performance.
Point of the video is if you can upgrade, just upgrade, no need to buy another bike with disks, if you can not upgrade then do the bike purchase.... All this is a good advice for the people that did not think about upgrade posibillity. Price difference, pair of ultegra calipers 120euro, new bike 1500+euro..... Simple math....
@SickBiker good video....
The lever ratios between the two arms of the direct mount brake are different so one side will press harder on the rim, unlike centre pull or U brakes which have equal length arms.
Awesome. Thanks for the information!
excellent info.. thanks for sharing!
Thank you for the great video. I miss the simplicity of the old version. Disc adjustments can be so finicky.
I was going to go to twin symmetrical pivot calipers but realized I don't require any more braking pressure. I actually use a original compound pad in the rear for less bite and a dual compound in the front. For aggressive long stops I hang my buns out past the seat for counter weight.
Good example, but it is exaggerated by the absence of the rim. But, valid point
Thanks for brief explanation
Hey, what about the old centre-pull cantilever brakes? Very symmetrical.
Is there a left side pull version of this dual pivot? It's gonna hit my chain ring. My bikes rear break is located below the bottom bracket.
You need to consider carbon wheel with disk break vs carbon wheel with out. That is where I think it makes sense to have disk breaks! But this is a great option for those with regular aluminum wheels!
Isn't possible to adjust height of brake pads in single pivot brakes? I think it is. They will have uneven height but when applying they will land on rim equally on both sides. Of course, that may not eliminate different applying force from both sides which still affects braking efficiency.
wow i can't be very excited to buy a dual pivot system brakes on my local stores a nice video from philipines magandang buhay
Great help. Love from India.
What about wider tire mounting clearance? Do they provide more space to squeeze in a 28C whist being open?
Is this dual pivot the same situation on rear brake?
I mean: Do the seat stays also have two bolts like is used on fork?
It is true they are not symmetrical but pads are adjustable so can be affixed slightly higher or lower, whichever side needs.
It's about equal leverage, the pivot to the ends. I don't think it's vital or they wouldn't have produced them. It's more important on a wider rim. I know it was important on my BMX for pressure
Nice video idol you explained well
So do direct mount have the adjuster bolt like side pull or is it never an issue like side pull ?
Just upgraded from tektro b174 to 105 r 7000.performance diferrence is very noticeable.
I'd love to get a symmetrical system, but it seems like they are all pretty limited in the maximum tire width they allow.
zipp and Lightweight use different resins there isnt a problem braking or caramelized brake pads , used the recommended pads for the respected manufacturers
Frames and forks are still hard to find to direct mount
This is actually false real world condidtions. Although dual pivot brakes do not move symmetrically when you compress them all the way without a wheel (like you do in the video). In real life you use a wheel that has a machined braking surface. Dual pivot brakes actually meet this braking surface at the same heights (assuming your brake pas are on correctly). The "old" dual pivot meet brake surface parallel to on another. The fact that they don't do so when you squeeze them together all the way doesn't matter.
I like your videos. Viewers, please take everything with a grain on salt.
If you dig into research on carbon resins & heat retention, you’ll see that it is still an issue that manufactures as of yet do not have a solution for. Disc brakes eliminate this problem.
Very easy to install.
hey what's your outro song? it's soo amazing dude
I just upgraded from a Trek with dual pivot brakes to a Canyon with disc brakes, chalk and cheese. dual pivot might be better than centre mount but still nowhere near the braking quality of discs.
Thank you!
that looks like a v-brake in a caliper form.. difficult to find a fork with mounts/holes like that on a road bike.
But the levers are still different long. Why t.h. not use the style of v-brakes?
1. Buy best quality pads like Koolstop salmon Maybe Swissstop, but they are pricey and no better
2. Clean rims
3. Make sure brakes are set up and adjusted properly, including cables
That’s a better upgrade path, and definitely worth doing before buying new brakes
Those ‘old style’ brakes are fine, just make sure you ride within your limits
I almost wonder if the asymmetry is actually misunderstood. The distance from pivot to pull points are more equal than the "symmetrical pivot" caliper. A test would tell the truth. A brake clamping force measurement needs to be performed on both designs.
thanks. If now my bike has single pivot & wanna upgrade to dual pivot, how do i apply with old fork/ frame which still has 1 hole in the middle for u-brake?
These dual pivot u-brakes are mounted the same way as the old single pivot brakes
I would really like to upgrade but I think I'm stuck with what I have:
I have Tiagra 4500 brakes (2009, it's the old 'Super SLR'). Most "Super SLR" brakes still available have different cable pull ratio.
Any upgrade suggestion? (brakes, not the pads, already on replaceable Koolstop Salmons, I have 25mm wide rims)
Detmer I really don't think that getting a set of 105 5800 brakes is going to have a worse performance then what you already have. I think Shimano say things like this to cover themselves but many people online have made the upgrade and are better off. For example my tiagra 4600 rear mech is only supposed to take a maximum of 28 teeth cassette, yet I have 32 teeth and it runs fine.
Well done Danny. Veru useful advice, especially in these fast changing times...😁
Maybe my comment is just semantics, but both brake calipers are dual pivot. The two bolt pattern is just called a symmetrical dual pivot. The central bolt caliper is still a dual pivot when you compare to older side pull calipers. Saying it's not a true dual pivot is incorrect.
Russell Riscoe and the funny part is true single pivot brakes do exactly the same movement as symetrical dual pivot brakes.
felt suckered when i first saw symetrical dual pivots. Open up an ANCIENT campagnolo delta brake caliper and what do you see? pretty much the same mechanics in a slightly different configuration.
Mafac centre pull brakes, introduced in 1952, have the same pivot layout but different cable actuation. The Altenburger Synchron, which came ten years later, was a side pull dual pivot design. As the saying goes, "there's nothing new under the sun".
How can you have dual pivot calipers if your front fork/frame has only center bolt connection? ..and does not have two bolts on fork frame.
I have a argon 18 krypton 2016, and felt ar3 2016, cervelo s3 2016, cervelo r3 2016.
Do I need to get new forks or make holes?
Ronnie Razon no holes! Just order dual pivot, single mount
By the way....been following a lot of your vlog and videos...awesome.
Learned alot....thank you.
i have an old road bike with shimano 105 5600 groupset (shift/brake levers, front/rear derailleurs) .... the brake calipers are no names.
what is the newest shimano 105/ultegra brake caliper that i can upgrade to without any compatibility issues?
I don't think you'll run into compatibility issues with either the 105 BR-R7000 or Ultegra BR-R8000. Check Shimano's compatibility chart if you'd like to know more.
@@yonglingng5640 I ended up buying some second hand ultegra 6600 brakes. They fit and work perfectly.
However I bought a new van rysel NCR CF SRAM Rival bike afterwards 😅
Direct mount!
How can you say its not equal when you sqeeze them...the proper way all i know is you must align the the shoes when it is mounted on the forks ...do not justify on squeezing the shoes because it will just hold on the wheel break linings...
I have never seen a bike in a shop with direct mounted calliper brakes! So, unless you want to buy new forks and brake callipers, what is the point of this video?
BMH1965 I think the point of the video is that the direct mount brakes give you better performance but if you still have the single bolt attachment it is possible to upgrade and get better performance. The Shimano 105 5800 brakes are a prime example.
Alotta of Treks have 'em.
Great to know because when commuting in My roadie on wet weather I may have about 20% breaking performance in other words very dangerous riding, may save Your life!
The main message is in the end, where he says that you can get dual pivot brakes for standard (single) mount frames and forks. Would have been nice to show that, though. It's in the discription, check the "Shimano 105, standard mount" - which is a dual pivot brake with a single, central mounting bolt
you're probably not looking at bikes in the higher price points. How about direct mount front derailleurs and flat mount disc brake calipers? 2 other things found only on higher end bikes at the moment. For your comment though, there are retrofit brakes that only require a single mount bolt but are symetrical dual pivot.
What about the SRAM Force 22 Hydraulic brakes? Is it better than mechanical ? Thanks!
Pablo Mendoza
I have sram red hydro and they are very good
Danny do you know if it is possible to fit the 105 dual pivot brake to my Tiara shifters
Definitily! Anything from claris to dura ace brakes will do. They are interchangable
Ok for dual pivot version , for direct mount version , like in the video , need a predisposed frame .
I have single bolt mount SRAM Red calipers and have noticed uneven pad wear, equally though a friend has a Canyon with direct mount Ultegras and has much worse problem with uneven wear!
At least the Ultegra brakes should wear down evenly, but I don't think Sram would have this problem either. I didn't have this problem even on the non-dual pivot brakes.
SickBiker I’ve been very careful setting mine up so was surprised to see the uneven wear, the pads are Mavic Exalith (Swisstop).
For this reazon ,love MAFAC racer, simetrical pívot, on my bicycle!! With pads cool stop!!!
Can you do a video of rim vs 'mechanical disc' for entry level road bike options because I am confused.
I am a heavy rider at 100kg and am hoping to have my hands on road bike. My budget for it is around $750 and am confused between rim vs mechanical disc. Around that price point, i can get tiegra with rim brakes and have an option to get mech disc but with sora. I have heard mech disc to be reliable like TRP Spyre(with dual piston movements) but in my price point, I'll get some entry level option(like Promax Decode R, Promax DSK, Tektro Lyra,unbranded ones,etc). Which should I go for?
If mech disc, which brakes are considered as a good option. Since the weather where I stay is unpredictable, I am leaning towards disc but am in fear of getting a bad choice of mech discs.
Another option I have is to wait for a year or two for R&D to boosts up for mech disc as they are starting to dominate the entry level market. I know Hydraulic disc( on my mountain bike ) is a solid performer but budget can't reach me there for road bike.
Loving your videos from India. Since it is an emerging cycling market here, I have few local opinions of mech disc on road bikes.
Sumanth Kashyap Get the disc brake one. Better braking. Better tire clearance.
Can you suggest few good mech disc brakes. If i'm buying, I'll go for a complete bike, so no custom builds. Brake brand and lineup suggestion will help to sort out. Thanks for your valuable opinion.
buy a gravel bike, the frame is designed to take heavy loads, you can put at least 38mm tires on it for a comfortable ride and it comes with discs for unpeedictable weather, for that price you can buy the basic specialized diverge, if you do some research where you live probably you could find better deals
I'm being torn between rim and disc brakes as on commuter bike brakes are worn faster than on pure road. And with rim brakes that means changing rim and doing spoke-work. I think you don't have snow and slime (unless in Himalayas or around there) but sand and dirt also will eat rims especially if you have to brake often and in India you have to. So good mech brakes would be considerable for cold winter as alternative to hydros, but in your case I'd go straight for hydraulic disc brakes. You may have all kind of sex with truing rotors, silencing pads and bleeding (saying just in case, not mandatory) but you will not wear out rims in a year. Which doesn't mean they can't break for other reasons, of course.
The budget doesn't allow me to have hydraulics. I think they will soon trickle down from higher groupset lineup in 2-3years. For mechanical, can you suggest good models of brakes. How are Tektro Lyra, shimano's BR-RS305? Gravel could be an option but hunting bikes for long endurance rides....
Bro i ask what size should i get for my gravel bike that has 700x38 c wheel size
Shimano R-451 might work
UPANBIKE Road Bicycle Fixed Gear Bike Aluminum Alloy Front Rear Caliper Brake
Is the name on Amazon for calipers that might work
From the combination of 105 front caliper + rear tektro caliper you can achieve 100% braking force your tire(tyre) can handle in dry condition.
However, for wet conditions and the ease of braking, disk brakes are still recommended.
Just get wet weather pads for your rim brakes, and regularly clean your rim between cycles, no need for discs in most road applications.
Tried to support you but couldn't, you might need to update your affiliate links, the items are no longer available from your links. 👌🏼
This bike was really easy to assemble ruclips.net/user/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA and required very few adjustments out of the box. The wheels did not require any truing/adjustments. The frame had some small scratches, but nothing major.I did replace the seat though - the seat it came with was very uncomfortable. The tires need to be re-inflated every 4-5 days, but this appears to be quite common for the narrow 700x25 tires.Overall, in my opinion, this bike looks and rides like a much more expensive bike.
Great
Links for examples no longer work
Is there an option for a long reach caliper?
I have not seen them.
Will cheap mechanical disk brakes stop you "better" than dual pivot rim brakes?
51249ca that depends on the disc brakes. If the caliper only moves one pad then it is essentially moving like an asymmetric rim brake. If both pads move like the TRP Spyre then it will be quite good. Modulation and consistency is what you benefit more in a disc brake over rim brakes.
The overall answer is yes. They are much more reliable and durable. We all know why.
Cheap mech disc brakes no, i ve had them and they stop slower than carbon rims in the wet lol :D
Trp high road however are very good and much better in the wet ;)
But in fairness rim brakes on a $100 bike are worse than disc brakes on a $100 bike :-)
They are both called dual pivots, one is indeed called symmetrical dual pivot, the other one is called just dual pivot. Stop spreading false information.
my problem with rim brakes is it's so hard to find a rim brake for gravel bikes that will fit a 35c tires.
Yes, most gravel bikes are disk for that reason
v pull brakes
If your frame doesn'r have canti bosses; try centrepull brakes, from the likes of dia compe, Paul, or Mafac. If you have cantilever bosses, a mini V or cantilever will work fine with road levers.
With rim brakes won't you eventually have to change your wheel due to beveling?
Yes. In 10 or 15 thousand miles
There is still the issue regarding heat generated by braking on carbon rims. Disc brakes eliminate this problem which is still an issue with carbon rim brakes even though they have improved it slightly.
its simply not an issue for a lot of ppl, if youre 100kgs and decending for hours on end, then yea go w discs
The lever for the brake cable looks improperly aligned. ie: to open and close the lever arms
That is the new style some calipers use--it's more aero, supposedly.
The one you say isn't dual pivot, is obviously dual pivot. Single pivot has only one pivot. That one has two, hence dual pivot. With the correct adjustment (unlike the example) a standard 'dual pivot' caliper will perform perfectly.
Says the buster who can't afford an ultegra drivetrain.
Great to know because when commuting in My roadie on wet weather I may have about 20% breaking performance in other words very dangerous riding, may save Your life!
Want keep My rim brake bike so I’ll give it a shot!
Try first Koolstop salmon pads, cheaper and very efficient.
No matter which kind of brakes is best，but we still needs to change the frame if we wants to upgrade the brakes，so the real upgrade is upgrade the frame！
Not really, there are dual pivot, standard mount brakes!
😊
Nice video interesting point of view... but!! A v brakes will always use the rim that gets dirty and wet... a Disk brake will never have that contamination and the pressure applied will always be grater so... i would say this vide offers an improvement not an upgrade.
Doscs are also easily get dirty, light rain is enough to make them squish awfully.
Isn't this just a cantilever brake with more steps and weight?
It looks stiffer (Its thickness is where it´s most needed. On the other side, the mouning-points/rim-distance is longer by them, than bei cantilever), and the mounting points are flash to the frame, meaning, they flex less. Also, people prefer such brakes over cantilever, cause of aerodynamics and compactness during a crash, that would damage the cantilever brake, but not these. I think that cantilever are the unsurpassed rim-brakes, but no mounting options for road-bikes, like those shown here.
Can you put these on mtb as v brakes suck.
V-Brakes offer the best braking force to lever force of any system, if properly set up. You would significantly degrade your braking performance swapping from V-Brakes to calipers.
Lol, vbrake are monster
@@shhhdontshout they are crap. Next time is disc brake for me
Ian you should try Raleigh long reach pressed steel calipers with Rubber blocks on Chrome steel rims. V brakes were far superior. Christ a worn out converse dragging on the tarmac was and upgrade to the old raleigh calipers 🤣
No one actually answered the question, I want want to get rid of cantilever brakes, can I use these? Who knows
so where and how can I upgrade my bike? Where is the upgrade idea?
Such a pointless video.
With disc you dont have to worry about weight especially hydraulic you remind me of vape youtubers saying what you use is the best and only the best but in all actuality its not theres always something better money makes changes nobody can fathom when given to the right person i would pull those for disc so quick
#savetherimbrake #rimbrakeroadbikes
Break - verb. to damage something.
Brake - verb. to apply force to a moving object to slow it down.
I feel like I see this done wrong more often than correctly in the comments. Non-native speakers are of course excused, but let's not teach them bad habits... /rant
Yes as an automotive tech I notice this often. Spell correction might also be a culprit.
Never ever rim brakes Will provide a feeling that road Disc brakes delivery to you ride
Yep. That terrible screeching loud whistle whenever you brake is so soothing. Disc brakes are useless compared to symmetrical direct mount.
Ting ting ting ting ting ting 😂
This is direct mount not dual pivit
actually it's both
just learn
to adjust the non symetrical breaks dude
Don't worry I won't be buying any bikes with disc brakes
They're called brakes, not breaks. Or is that a Euro thing or a non-English interpretation?
brake and break is often confused by non-natives
Oh come on man... give the non-english speaking folks a brake... 😂😂😂
Those are u brakes 😐
I hate text talk.
That's what I thought. Just another term for U brake.
Upgrading to symmetrical needs a new frame.. For me, I will just buy a frame that is disc ready..
yup
No, you don't need a new frame. As he says inn the video. There are two types of these symmetrical calipers. One for the direct mount frames, and one for the old standard single mount frames.
@@nellaRissa nope
@@edewar6004 symmetrical dual pivot needs new fork
@@nellaRissa watch again. Direct mount symmetrical pivot needs a new fork. Last couple of generations of Shimano single mount caliper are also symmetrical pivot.
this is just so stupid, you have to adjust the level of the pads on the "asymmetrical" break such that the pads are properly grip the rim WHEN THEY TOUCH the rim, you don't have to adjust them when they are in the released position!
good point altough the torque on the levers will be different ( momentum) ... (sorry my english but I guess u get the idea.)
iff you want carbon wheels you need to have disc brakes.....no choice iff you dont want your wheels caving in
This is why road bikes were obsolute technology due to the stupid rules. V brakes offer so much more power and now disc brakes yet everyone is using these outdated junk.
This video makes no sense. You cant upgrade anything unless you change the frame.
Campy and Shimano both make dual pivot brakes that work with the single bolt mounting system
Did you actually watch the video?
The title is misleading. I searched for videos explaining how to convert to disc brakes. This video was listed due to the inclusion of "Disc Brakes" in the title. And "Before You Buy Another Road Bike With Disc Brakes." was given for the video title. The title suggests there might be some important information to consider before trying such an upgrade, so I went to this video first. Only to discover that this has absolutely nothing to do with disc brakes. To be fair, video title lengths are limited when performing a search. Had the entire title been visible, I would have known that this was probably not what I wanted. Likewise, I would have known the same had I rechecked the title after clicking the video. That said, video titles need to be simple, to the point and relevant. This video is a comparison of asymmetrical and symmetrical dual pivot brakes. Everything else is irrelevant information that fouls up searches. Remember every word you put in a title affects search results, so good content creators pay attention and avoid annoying potential subscribers. A good title for this video would be "Asymmetrical vs. Symmetrical Dual Pivot Brakes"
just buy cheap adapters on ebay\ali, they looks meh, but you can weld it up afterwards
This is called clickbait.
Not really, these brakes work so much better than asymmetrical dual pivots that anyone considering 'upgrading' to discs ie new bike time might find that these brakes give similar power braking for much less money. So the vid does what it says on the tin.