Why the Starks Chased the Blackwoods Out of the North (A Song of Ice and Fire)
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- Опубликовано: 5 май 2023
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Considering that the Bracken's started out in the Riverlands and the Backwoods migrated there from the North, it seems pretty obvious that the Brackens were telling the truth. They were already there so it makes sense that they were Kings first.
I think the Blackwoods may have fled the North and settled in the Riverlands, possibly at first bending the knee to the Brackens for protection while they established themselves but eventually broke away.
The two may have expended whatever strength they had as Kings fighting each other and let House Mudd subjugate them both
Aren’t the Brackens Andals tho, or do they trace their lineage back to the first men as well?
@@thedemonhater7748 the Brackens were First Men, but they integrated into the Andals.
exactly what a bracken would say
That is certainly a good point but if the starks kicked the blackwoods out before the starks conquered the entire north then it is a very long time ago and could still be before brackens were kings. Brackens can't be trusted too much. I am biased toward blackwood though.
The souls of the Children of the Forest are said to inhabit birds upon their death so all those ravens roosting in Raventree Hall's weirwood tree could be like the Children of the Forest holding a vigil over the tree to try and keep it from dying.
The trees were Children's gods, holding their memories/knowledge. What you are saying makes sense. Though I'm thinking the dying tree is calling for the ravens, to take the souls and information from the tree before it dies. The Ravens are messengers after all, so I think they are there to save and take away what information they can.
Personally, I think those ravens represent Bloodraven's "a thousand eyes and one" but thats just me.
@@williamhermann6635Bloodraven himself explains what happens to them when they die. They're birds.
I heard the Blackwoods were sent by the Starks to keep those lands. Something went down there and it might still be a threat. The Weirwood tree is gigantic, but dead or poisoned; which is strange. And the spirits of the Children gather there in the Ravens. The woods around it were destroyed long ago, maybe for a good reason. Also Oldstones is nearby.
Perhaps they're supposed to keep an eye on the God's eye, perhaps the Witch Arya met there was one of the children of the forest using glimmer magic to look like an old woman (it's said she's as tall as a child, which is an odd thing to be specific about).
There's definitely some old magic going on around the riverlands.
The Blackwoods are there for a reason
@@the98themperoroftheholybri33
Interesting, that could be...
Perhaps the Wierwood is the last remnant of magic in the Riverlands, one connected to the Isle of Faces on the God's Eye?
they were sent down south too keep an eye on things love that theory Southern Ambitions started long ago before Rickard Stark there were other houses I say they sent as well
The Starks used to be ruthless.
If Brandon wasn't killed by the Mad King he probably would've been ruthless too
After Ramsey kills his dad the Bolton are left Roose-less
@@qwopiretyu nice
@@qwopiretyu Nice, but he never kills his dad.
@@scummyfish show continuity
I think it was kind of like the natural symbiotic relationship between wolves and ravens. The ravens help locate food... and the wolves will share it with them. It's a win/win. I can't imagine it was anything but a joint decision for the Blackwoods to move south and give the Starks more room... more land. They still have good relations with them and intermarry at times. Perhaps they were the Stark's ambassadors to the Mudd's... and the other riverland lords?
It seems to me that the Crannogmen had the best relationship with the Children... but it was seen as advantageous to have protections on both sides - north and south... So that might have played into the Blackwoods move too... who knows.
Sounds kinda stupid imagine them saying here have my family home and all my lands while I go to this completely foreign land you know how stubborn they are with their grudges with the Bracken's you think they'd ever abandon their ancestral home unless they where forced to that's a completely bitch move in my opinion to leave your land and give up your pride in the name of loyalty to the people who were trying to conquer you so you know they'd never do it northern houses would never abandon their honour without a fight but time washes away all wounds so after years of not encountering the Starks they met them again without all the threats of conquering and threats to power they got along quite well because they didn't have a reason to dislike each other any more well more like they'd forgotten it and they bonded over their similarities rather then fight over differences and power.
@@melkormorgothbauglir.4848 Might not be loyalty. It might be that they went to protect something, or learn magic, or for some kind of plan. Or they could have been exiled.
@@Fly-the-Light Exiles what I'm for but what are they trying to protect? what magic are they trying to learn? what's their plan?
@@melkormorgothbauglir.4848not a single comma
The Pact between the First Men and the Children is what ended their conflict with each other for a few thousand years. The Pact outlined that "open lands" like plains, mountains, coasts, were to go to the First Men, and the forests were to be the Children's. Even tho I am positive the Blackwoods have a sizable amount of COTF blood in them, they are still more human than not, and since their domain was the Wolfswood I think it is safe to put two and two together....the Wolfswood for a time went back to the Children, and the Blackwoods had to relocate to "open lands" i.e. the Riverlands.
I have a much more tinfoil theory to add to this, but this is the most logical baseline theory I can think of.
@@V-is4Val I like your logical one, but I REALLY want to hear your tinfoil theory
Ah, so the Starks wanted to uphold the Pact, and the Blackwoods were in a patch of forest, is what you're saying?
@@thalmoragent9344It would make sense. Stark's are known for keeping oaths. It was only after Starks diluted their blood with Southerners that Robb broke his word. Perhaps Starks were so intent on oaths, because the war with Children ended with one. They would do their best to respect the deal with Children.
Houses remember insults done to them and slights. They re-tell the story and pass it down to the next generations. But the Blackwoods don't seem to hold any grudge against House Stark, as the might if they had been driven out of the North. The Manderly's remember how House Peak drove them from the Reach, and how they were given sanctuary by the Starks.
I feel that the Blackwood's move down South was do in agreement with the Starks. For what reasons? The Pact with the Children seems a valid one, but I'd have imagined that if the Starks had to tell them 'Sorry, you must leave the Wolf Wood and head South as the woodlands must remain the domain of the Children,' then they would also have said 'and as this is hard on you, were are going to give you a load of gold to make sure you can get properly established down South, to build a solid castle and not get pushed around by any local cattle herders or alike.'
Something else is that one of the Blackwoods became Queen of the Seven Kingdoms when marrying King Aegon V Targaryen.
One of my favorites alongside the Starks and Velaryons
The Blackwoods and the Brackens are the Bloods and Crips of Planetos. 😂
Brackens do the Bracken walk up and down the block lol
@@williamhermann6635 😂😂
Nah, Hatfields and McCoys!
Capulets and montagues
I love these videos! Really amazing work. That said, I admit I am little disappointed in the assumption that House Bracken is lying about being Kings because they’re “the bad guys.” One of the fundamentally core themes of ASOIAF is the rejection of that kind of oversimplified black-and-white, fairy tale thinking. Making the Brackens be so unpleasant, yet ultimately correct that they were once usurped by the dramatically more likable Blackwoods is EXACTLY the kind of thing George RR Martin loves to inject into his storytelling.
House Blackwood is arguably the most interesting house in asoiaf
Feels kinda overrated but they got good drip.
Yeah they are but tbh house Dayne is on a whole different level of mystery.
@Dyl
Yeah, just like how their ancestral sword has already given birth to many theories.
@@craftyunicorn4291 I agree with both....Blackwood and Dayne both need more lore....but my interest has always been on the past of ALL the great houses before the conquest....especially Arryns, High towers, Bolton, and the houses that border the reach and Dorne.....as well as the family that held Storms End before Baratheon. And of course the family that holds Griffins Roost...I forget their name....the one guy who took the mad kings youngest son and fled....Connor, or oconnel, red Ronnets cousin dang it....
Love your lore videos man! Keep it up!
i always liked the quick little love story we got in fire and blood between black aly and cregan stark
The videos are always intriguing, keep it up brother 🙏
We all know the crowning glory of the Blackwoods other than being badass, is their awesome Raven Feather Cloaks!
Your videos always make my day!
The Flints are also supposed Greenseers and Wargs and they intermarried with the Starks aswell so it might come from them i saw it in a video from Alt Shift X or smth
I cannot wait to meet the Blackwoods in WoW
The Blackwoods definitely has one of the coolest coat of arms of all the houses. Imagine if they ruled the North instead of the Starks😅
Nah, the Brackens were probably telling the truth about them being the kings there. The Blackwoods just moved in after all.
Yeah I'm a bracken fan because of this heavy bias for the blackwoods
If they were, what were their relations with surrounding houses before the Blackwoods moved there?
Brilliant ❤
Ravens and Horses seem to hate each other's guts, and drive much of Westeros' conflicts. The First Men seem to have been a Horse Culture like the Dothraki and frightened the Children of the Forest to no end. This animosity is best seen with the Blackwoods and Brackens, Brynden Rivers and Bittersteel. The Golden Company when they arrive in Westeros start gleefully massacring the messenger ravens with archery, like Bittersteel is still directing them from beyond the grave against his rival.
It’s a shame that House Justman died out.
The only hope for an end to the Brackens vs Blackwood beef, shame indeed
And its extinction makes no logical sense like qhored hoare was a drift wood king yet the kings of house Justman was established after the andal invasion where house greyiron wiped out the drift wood kings and the fact that house Justman ruled all the riverlands down to the Blackwater should have made them an incredibly powerful kingdom so how did they lose to the ironborn I think this is another example of george letting his story define the past
Fuck the Justman's, the real shame is how house Mudd was wiped out. Hail to the true kiings of Rivers, hills and stone!
The Blackwoods fled the North and were welcomed by the Bracken but then they betrayed and usurped them. Much later, the Brackens retaliated and took back the throne. The eternal squabble had begun.
Why did the Blackwoods flee?
Why did the Brackens welcome them?
Why did the betrayal occur?
@@loucypherdamorningstar
Well, probably the Blackwoods screwed big time and lost an important battle/war therefore being forced south or face annihilation. The Brackens welcomed them probably cause unity is strength, so they could fight together against common enemies (like house Mudd).
The betrayal occurred when the Blackwoods probably felt the Brackens to be too weak and as northerners they value power and strength. Mayhap the Blackwoods believed themselves to be in the right to usurp the Brackens just like the Targaryen believed themselves to be in the right to unite the seven kingdoms under their rule to protect Westeros from the Others.
Blackwoods says the Brakens were Horses breeders or Masters of Horses than took their money to hire sell companies to take mandel of Kings of Riverlands.
Holy shit ur voice is good for sleeping
Never ever was so bored
Says a lot that house Stark ran the Blackwoods off their lands but kept the Bolton around. I theories that house Blackwood are descendants of the Warg king and their excidus from the north happens after the defeat of the Warg king by the Starks.
Keeping your enemies closer than your friends- if we believe they actually 'ran them off'...
Its an easy explanation, before bending the knee the Boltons were almost as powerful as the Starks, they were centuries in a stalemate, they couldnt just kill them or exile them, the deal was "Since King Stark is a bit more powerful (but not enough to conquer the Boltons) King Bolton accepts bending the knee and become his vassal in order to fight the invading Andals", that means that for a good amount of generations Bolton's vassals will be more loyal to Lord Bolton than to King Stark, that will change with the pass of time but that shouldnt be ignored, and while the Boltons rebelled many times each rebellion was separated from the next for more or less 1000 years, that's a lot of time
What if the Blackwoods are vassals first to the Brackens but both are bannermen to the River King at the time, just like how the Starks welcomed and accepted the Manderlys in the North this River King did the same thing first to the escaping Blackwoods. Granting them lands near or within the territories of the Brackens who the latter started to usurp their king but the Blackwoods kinda foiled but ultimately ended because their line of the king at that time simply died off, and Blackwoods already powerful on their own started to separate themselves from the Brackens
I wonder if House Mudd had a keep named the Mudd Fort?
Old Stones was probably called Mudd Hall.
There's a theory that shade of the evening is the sap of dead weirwoods so drinking it is like drinking in the lives and memories of the children of the forest. This would explain why the warlocks were kinda insane when Dany met them. it's farfetched but having Euron reach Blackwood and drink the sap of the tree would be interesting. Or having Jaime drink it.
The Shade of the Evening comes from the black trees blue leaves in the courts of the House of the Undying. They're not weirwood trees, as the trees aren't said to have faces on their trunks etc. While all weirwoods have faces.
I don't get why some people say there's a bias in favor of Blackwoods. I never picked up on that.
The Blackwoods and the Brakens keep showing up throughout the ASoIaF world. And you always like the Blackwoods, and are angry at the Brakens. They have been fighting each other forever. The Blackwoods worship the Old God's and used to have a godswood with an enormous Weirwood tree, but the Brakens poisoned it.
Aegon the Unworthy was King and two of his bastards were famous. Brynden Rivers called Bloodraven was born to Missy Blackwood. He was Hand and a spy master and became the three-eyed raven in Bran's story. And his mistress Barba Brakens was the mother of Aegor Rivers called Bittersteel who talked Aemon Blackfyre into starting the terrible war to take the throne from Daeron II. Also there are a pair of mountain peaks in the Riverlands called the Teats and people argue if The King when he named them was thinking of Missy or Barba.
Aegon the Unlikely ( Egg of Dunk and Egg) married for love to a Blackwood.
In the books, Jaime takes hostages from the Riverlands and collects a Blackwood and Braken , and the storyline maybe setting up that they will marry and in the future form a combined house.
Wasnt Brynden Bloodraven a blackwood, or partanyways....kinda makes sense why the tree is called raven tree and full of ravens. Hes keeping an eye on his family....😮
Blackwoods and Brackens : *fight each others*
The Tullys : *sigh* not again...
I like ravens so Iike the Blackwoods. I’m a simple man with simple needs.
Is it not a bit unlikely that all 6 of Neds kids became wargs? Is it possible that all starks are wargs but need to spend time with direwolves to unlock it or something, or does it have to do with dany bringing magic back into the world causing starks to regain this power
The Stark kids got their wolves long before Dany hatched the dragons. I personally don't think all the magical power lies with the existence of dragons, but also with the existence of wargs, perhaps specifically Stark wargs/direwolf wargs. It is a song of ice AND fire after all; symbiotic. I also think the warg gene is far more dominate than anyone alive in westeros knows. I think there is strong reason to believe nearly all the old Kings of winter were wargs. I don't think the trait got diluted with time, I think their access to the direwolves were cut off for one reason or another. I think we are meant to look at this like the Targaryen family history of dragonbonding, i think the magic genetics are the same concept applied differently. Not every Targaryen bonded with a dragon, but it seems like at one time before The Dance when dragons were hatching and plentiful that most Targaryens had the ability to do it if they wanted to. I believe the same applies with the Starks, that the ability to warg is far more dominate than recessive.
I never noticed that the north kinda looks like a head of a wolf 0:05
Didn't house Whent was rumored to have skin changing blood? Which Catelyn bloodline has Whent blood.
WC!!!!!
Targaryen + blackwood (or descendants of first men) = three eyed raven but jon didn't get the white hair nor powers. Talk about bad luck.
Jon has the ability to warg, a power that is in all the Stark children
Because Jon isnt a targ.
I find this all very interesting that westeros along time ago was never inhabited by humans, i wonder what dwelt there before the first men came and settled there, we know humans in asoiaf trace their roots back in the continent of essos. so the first men are the first human inhabitors in westeros. then from there came the andals and the rhoynar
House Blackwood has to be the only House that gained better lands after getting exiled
I like your videos a lot, but man your titles. Where does the video actually answer the question “Why the Starks Chased the Blackwoods Out of the North?” Don’t get me wrong, very interesting stuff, but maybe I’m dense because the title seems not to match up. Literally just dropping the word “Why” would’ve made the title fit. Also, you said the Blackwoods were the only house to change regions (see the Manderlies). All that being said, great content/voice/research…just hate feeling like I got click-baited. And if I’m wrong and someone can timestamp the part of the video that matches the title I’ll gladly retract. Keep creating, good stuff.
The three-eyed raven?? Who is that? Three-eyed Raven is show only and Blackwoods exile from the north is book only. And Bryden Rivers flat out says he is not the Three-Eyed CROW in the book.
you said at 1:09 that no other house escaped to start a life elsewhere... what about manderly?
They fled to the North, not away from it.
So they should have a lot of cousins by this point
Lame Lothar Frey didn't seem to inherit the sense of honor his mother's family had though.
Funny considering that the Manderleys did the exact opposite
👍🏾👌🏾
👍 👍
Bittersteel > Bloodraven
Bittersteel has the coolest name in the entire ASOIAF universe
Beneath the gold, the bitter steel!
I just want a spin-off where Benedict Rivers hand the Brackens and Blackwoods their ass before he steamrolls the other houses and establish the a dynasty that ruled a united Riverlands until the Hoares showed up.
Nah until a drift wood king showed up in an era where their should be none and how he defeated the total might of the riverlands and captured his son then said king didnt reinforce his line and died
Wait, the Blackwoods look like elves, what?
Only thing i condemn grrm for is chronology. "Thousands of years", maan unless you're ancient Egypt..maybe also china..things change!. Alot.
The Blackwoods' retelling also seems more believable because it actually has details that also make sense like the Brackens, who use a horse for a sigil, being renowned horse breeders who used the wealth from that to hire swords and rebel. Meanwhile the Brackens just claim the Blackwoods were their vassals who rose up against them. No details, no actual story that George has chosen to share... just a thin claim that they were vassals who betrayed them. Seems less believable.
Well, who really pays attention to their servants
@@loucypherdamorningstar Somewhat fair point, not gonna lie.
Is john snow a worg, and can he do that to a dragon?
Noone can worg a Dragon or any Magical Creatures. And yes, Jon is a Worg but still has a long way to go to be a powerful one...
@@dineshbalu6107 BR tells Bran he will be able to warg anything that flies. But hes more powerful than Jon.
@@williamhermann6635 Dude, The writer even said in one of his Interviews, that Greenseers will work only in the places where the Weirwood Trees are available... As for Worging, He specifically said it is the Magic of the Old gods that can make them to worg into certain animals and birds, but it will not work on Other Magical Beings, especially Valyiran Magic aka Dragons... Even Bloodraven couldn't do it as he also had Valyrian Blood and Magic in him, let alone Bran.... If they can Control Dragons, then imagine What would have happened in the 5000 yrs of Valyria, with over 1000 Dragons....
So get it clear here, Worging is Magic and it will not apply to any Creatures born of Other Magic, especially Dragons, which are the Most Powerful and Potent form of Magic in this World....
@@dineshbalu6107 The writer also created Bloodraven, who literally told Bran he would be able to control anything that flies. Take it up with GRRM.
@@williamhermann6635 At that time, according to him Dragons are Extinct for over 2 Centuries, So noone knows that Dragons do Exist and reborn alright, Let alone in Westeros, it was a Rumour of rumour here lol😂🤣. So he meant Bran cannot Walk but he can Fly... That's all. I mean is this ur Extent of the Argument??? Context matters dude, here and everywhere.... Also I gave U the exact Statement from the Big Man himself, What more do u want?? Just admit it and move on, U'll feel better lmao🤦🤦
Like most Americans, I don't think you know what colonization is!
first of cregan stark married a blackwood and that line didnt last... Starks >> Blackwood in regards to WARG powers. DOnt even...Starks married into the ward king line...
Current timeline are also descendant of Blackwoods don’t forget
Starks are painfully stupid sometimes.....Aria actively wargs into a cat.....still don't know it's not a dream. John all but says it about ghost. Mel tells him too. #facepalm
I dont like all this Bracken slander... they're the much better and cooler house and definitely more believable.
They are more likeable to me for the simple fact that blackwoods are cowards who never fight 1 on 1 fairly and always people on hilltops to shot arrows at the unsuspected victor if a blackwood or someone who blackwoods are supporting loses the battle
You don't know or understand how feudalism is or worked if you are going to call the Starks colonizers.
By our modern understanding it would be colonialism. Any group taking control of other peoples by force.
Colonialism wasnt invented in the 1600s, its a medeival method of conquering numbskull. The Starks could be colonizers, whether you wanna be a snowflake about it or not
@@stephaniewilliams6756 if you are going to try and insult me. Get facts straight. Colonies started back in ancient times. It's dumb to call people that when they never did it.
WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS SPEAKING SO UNCLEAR! YOU ARE SLURRING ALL YOUR WORDS!
The way you intentionally make your words unclear bugs me.
First!!
First?
The wolfswood was given to the manderley not the Glover's
thats the wolves den
Many words you spoke butt say so little,next to none......
You guys look way too into this s***