If you are curious about Cirrus training...this incident happened during a time when Cirrus deaths were their highest levels. This led to Cirrus completely overhauling their training and making special transition courses/training for Cirrus aircraft. This drastically reduced the number of deaths while simultaneously increasing the number of CAPS saves. This is NOT a sponsored video and I won't make any money from it, but if you want a recommendation for Cirrus training, I've added some info in the video description. Links to the videos I mentioned in this story: Pilot's Reckless Mistakes Kills Instagram Star 👉ruclips.net/video/mKfM4PKPmvw/видео.html Dad Flies Drunk - Gets Son Killed! 👉ruclips.net/video/hFMqMyC0XZQ/видео.html
I'm not a pilot but after watching all your videos I'm not going to hold my tongue if I see ANYthing that begs for answers as I'll say I'm sorry afterwards if it turns out that I am wrong, sobeit.... I've learned that much since watching you, GB ALL
Hi Hoover. Can't find your post where you asked about collecting feedback from your subscribers. Anyways, fantastic channel, your content is always excellent and it's very apparent you're an upmost professional operator. I just watched this video and enjoyed it so much I watched it again straight after. Although I played it at 0.75x which was a little bit slow. Myself, and perhaps others, listen to every word in your script (as you make them all count) it's clear you don't have unnecessary filler words, entirely focused on the pertinent issues. Perhaps you could look at your delivery speed, although it's just as easy to adjust it in the settings myself. People with English as a second language may also find your commentary goes at quite a quick clip. All the best.
BINGO a winner If you’re too low that parachute 🪂 is just to help search and rescue 🛟 to find you Not sure if there is an Altitude restriction by means of above sea level But high density altitude means parachute 🪂 will take longer. One more if you’re in a flat spin coming down like a falling leaf 🍁 does CAPS work well Not in training CAPS manual
If you haven't got many hours on the aircraft (and for all the other reasons mentioned in the video), you might also not be in a state of mind where you remember you have a parachute available to deploy
Excellent Video. Am a commercial helicopter pilot with over 15k hours and only a little over 500 hours in fixed wing. Though flying a helo is second nature, flying fixed for now is like being a 16 year old with a new drivers license… we all know what that was like. A key difference between the two types of aircraft is that the helo can be landed on a postage stamp in the event of an engine failure but am constantly scanning for long unobstructed landing zones in the fixed. Am constantly learning from your debriefs and they have helped immensely in keeping focused and precise while flying fixed. This particular debrief hit more at home because of the involvement of the helo pilots.
You don't need much for fixed wing. Couple hundred feet. All it has to be is a survivable deceleration. Don't kill yourself trying to save the aircraft.
I would go so far as to say that you want to assume they don't know what they are doing, especially with safety critical decisions where something feels off.
@@richguitarmusic6781 That is a terrific comparaison but speaking as a licensed Master if you open your mouth fights and more start no matter your credentials and experience.
Yep, I owned an SR22T for several years and really loved it, but it's not possible to load all 4 seats and fuel. Any gear and your W&B is way outside the limits.
@@randyscorner9434 When you say "not possible to load all 4 seats and fuel" do you mean 4 grown men? Cause we load all 4 seats with adults all the time. Granted one adult is probably 120 lbs. and we don't have any issues.
It is, not to mention that helicopter pilots know just as well what a VSI is, and are probably more sensitive to CFIT than fixed wing pilots... and being CFI's were used to looking at the instruments as the PIC flies... and I think everyone knows that a cirrus doesn't have an autothrottle... He had to apply full power to take off didn't he.... Very hard to understand....
@@PRH123 "and being CFI's were used to looking at the instruments as the PIC flies..." Are you under the impression that CFIs only watch the instruments when teaching?
All four pilots were guilty of complacency. Even the two in the rear could have questioned the flight at any time. You summed it up perfectly when you stated, "the rules and the limits are written in blood".
@@stevenpayne3707 bro, literally every single warning lable was written in blood... every. single. one. the number of people that have to die for laws to change varies based on the subject, but make no mistake there is a body count. from drunk driving laws to the regulations of infant carseats, its all written in blood.
Whoa! Talk about chills when you said Eric Vallente. Eric was the pilot on the crash that killed my brother. I say, the more I watch this channel, I will never fly on a private plane.
I know private pilots, not a lot, but who are consumate professions. Ask questions about their flight plan, weight and balance. Ask to see it. If they make an excuse to not produce them, walk away.
@pilotrt This is a great filter-test. I've only flown with GA pilots who exhibited strict and analytical characteristics. Turned down invites from a few who I felt had the wrong personalities for GA.
I have been an Aircraft Mechanic for years. There are many pilots I would not fly with. I am proud to say, that all the Professional pilots I know are very qualified and experienced. If you have concerns about a pilots ability, privately ask the mechanics who work on the plane.
Sorry for your loss😢 Feel the same way. My deceased husband flew with a cowboy pilot, who broke something in a gale force wind - brake bar, is that a thing? Pilot's ego did not want to taxi back and prepared for takeoff - my husband climbed out in the middle of the runway and took a bus home. At an airshow, a private pilot was giving sightseeing rides in his plane. Bear in mind, this was in the early nineties, virtually before the internet and definitely before YT. I paid for my hubby and son to go on a flight (I'm terrified of heights), then got the creepiest feeling that small aircraft are not safe, and if there was an accident and I survived I would never forgive myself. So I got on that plane too, spent the entire flight clenched fists, head on my knees, missed all the scenery, was very relieved afterwards and have never been on a non commercial flight since.
@@danepatterson8107 same. As a kid, i really wanted to be a pilot... as i've gotten older, particularly after watching channels like this (excellent) one.. i've realised I lack the precision and diligence to do it safely. The only thing safe for me to fly is "into rages". :D
Yes, I never took up the opportunity because I am the exact polar opposite of all these 5 characteristics. That might have made me a good student pilot, but I would never ever dare to go solo.
I’m a dual rated commercial pilot and instructor. They are different worlds. Helicopter pilots tend to look at fixed wing flying as “easy”. Helicopter pilots often don’t get as much experience with weather and as much performance planning because helicopter trips tend to be short, not passing through different weather systems.
The worst thing is that W/B is so trivially easy to calculate nowadays. You just plug some numbers into foreflight, and it tells you if you’re gonna fly or crash today.
I did my Discovery flight recently and that was one of the first things I asked because I am overweight. The CFI simply pulled up a tablet and showed me the line graph with fuel and weight. It automatically showed the plans limits and was like "see this diamond under this line? Means well be fine." We even discussed the hot weather, air density, engine performance, all that stuff. Seemed so...logical and standard? It was a pretty quick and casual conversation. I am surprised when I listen to these videos.
I fly an SR20 and can add a few things: -Correction: the SR20 model they were flying is only 200hp. This was a deliberate design by Cirrus so pilots didn’t need a high performance endorsement (any plane with >200hp) Though since 2017 the SR20 came with 215hp -In order to take 4 adults (pilot + 3 pax), I need fuel at tabs (a little less than half full on each wing) and 0 bags. And on a hot day with altitude? Forget it. The SR20 is an amazing plane but it pales in comparison with a 22 or 22T in useful load…the 20 with full fuel and some bags is a 2 adults airplane.
in some ways it would be better if small single-engine aircraft only came with 2 seats if that is their worst case capacity at a worst case density altitude. I understand the marketing "need" for more seats but it is inevitably a problem for some people...
@@davedoe6445 The back seats would be mainly meant for children. And if you took out the seats that would probably just give guys like this reason to cram more stuff in there, with the same result. Changing the aircraft because people wantonly ignore the performance specifications, doesn't really change the outcome here.
Depending on which generation of sr20, you can have about 900 lbs of useful load including fuel. Fuel to tab will allow you to carry 750 lbs of human !!! A little more if it is g3 and above. Derating of the continental io360 to 200 hp should supposedly improve the life expectancy of the engine, which is what cirrus wanted. HP Endorsement is not a big deal as majority of cirrus sold are sr22x. On an important matter, the currency requirement for SR2x are 10 hours per 60 days as per 2007 Cirrus's FOM.
@@boneseyyl1060 I agree. But on the other hand, if you wanted to do a short local tour trip, you'd load way less fuel and the 2 adults in the back aren't a big deal anymore.
@@boneseyyl1060 many weight/balance caused accidents would beg to differ with your conclusion. I get that grownups can make hard choices, but not everyone acts grown up.
How does a helicopter pilot skip doing weight and balance?! The weight limits for helicopters are WAYY tighter than for airplanes, so I would think every helicopter pilot would always do a weight and balance. Being a helicopter pilot myself I sure do!
Being about 40 hours into my PPL has shown me just how incredibly fun and rewarding flying is but also how important safety is at all times. Safety is ALWAYS a priority.
Having 42 myself, it’s also shown me just how willing other pilots to go anywhere near getting themselves killed under normal operations; never mind emergencies, when it can’t always be helped.
That's an excellent attitude to have. I've had my PPL since 2019, picked up my instrument in 2020 and been slowly time building and just started getting serious about my commercial this year at about 222 hours. You'll learn a lot in your training about decision making and risk assessment. Expect that to be a major part of your oral exam and checkride. It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground. Trust your gut if something doesn't feel right, always be humble and honest with yourself about your limits and abilities, never let anyone pressure you into ignoring those instincts, and never be afraid to speak up and question things if you're flying with someone and they're doing something questionable. Good luck with your PPL. Be safe and have fun, in that order!
I'm about as far into it... The written exam did have a question about exceeding max takeoff weight, but I don't remember one of the possible answers to be "don't do the calculations and just wing it".
Have a PPL(H) since 1996 and in excess of 15,000 hours of UK flying under my belt. The safety record in the USA makes me question the teaching process.
I expected better judgement from those pilots. As a pilot for 30 years and accident investigator I still have great respect for flying, even more since I have been on so many fatal accident sites. For many pilots it is easy to sit in a chair and read about a pilot mishap and think I can do it better. But to be on a fatal accident side is a different story! Your flying will never be the same if you have seen one accident site! On all accidents that I investigated, I never found a technical mailfunction! It was always human related!!! Thank you Hoover for sharing this video as pilot debrief.
I watch your videos with great interest and find them very informative. I'm not a pilot, but an avid flight simmer. Back when I was around 18 years old (long ago now), I flew with a group of friends - members of an amateur sports team, from Mpls. to Chicago. The flight down was uneventful, and being young, the thought of a problem never occurred to me. On the flight back we were racing a storm front that was heading towards Mpls. and the pilot was only VFR rated. To speed our departure, we didn't refuel for the flight back. Enroute the one of the tanks ran dry, the engine sputtered and you could feel the plane lose its lift. The pilot managed to switch tanks and get the engine back up to speed. We were vectored to a small airstrip in southern MN where, after a failed attempt at landing and a go-around, the pilot managed to land the plane. After refueling, the storm had moved in - and the pilot was trying to convince everyone that he could fly under the clouds and follow the roads back to Mpls. After I refused to fly with him under those conditions, he enlisted two IFR pilots to come down in a second plane, and each pilot took a few of us back in those planes. Our plane was first to land at the destination airport outside of Mpls area. The second plane was unable to locate the airport beacon in the weather and eventually had to divert to another nearby airport and land there. I often wonder what would have happened had I agreed to fly and we all took off with that inexperienced and non-IFR pilot. I lost all interest in real-world GA flying after that unsettling experience. I think perhaps my decision saved lives...including my own.
You are correct, turbine powered helicopters have a governor. It is set after start and running rotor up to speed, and you essentially forget about throttle until going to ground idle to cool down the engine before shut down. All control is then via varying the collective pitch of the main rotor, and the turbine automatically varies output power to match the load you place on it. Variable pitch or constant speed airplane props work differently. You must adjust both throttle and pitch controls for desired speed and power. So bad habits from normal helo ops were a factor here. That and the helo he flew had a ton of extra power, whereas the Cirrus flying into a box canyon, overweight - no margin for error. And also pulling back on the cyclic in a helo merely shows down to a hover. Almost no danger in pulling back to correct a situation in a helo. But it is the exact wrong move in a fixed wing when stall horn blares. There is no "stall" warning in a helo. the only thing you have to worry about is entering a vortex ring state on slowing and descending. (must not exceed -300 to -400 ft/min when slowing and descending) Bottom line is there are bad/wrong/fatal habits that any rotary wing pilot has if moving to fixed wing, and also bad fixed wing habits that can kill you in a helo too. the problem with anti authority attitude is the authority in aviation is the laws of physics and aerodynamics, which are immutable. (so bucking them is foolish to say the least)
@@duncan649 They are different. I was a fixed winger who then learned rotary wing. There's things that are common and some things you have to unlearn when going from one to the other. I'm not sure which is harder, but my sense is it is more dangerous to go from helo to fixed as there is more to consider. Well maybe not, but the "safe" flight envelope is considerably different for the two classes of aircraft. And if you carry learned/conditioned responses to upsets from one to the other it could be catastrophic.
Some pilots seem to think that aircraft fly because of their will instead of the laws of physics. How do you ignore max weight? When your stall warning is blaring for 3 minutes, how do you fail to increase power to the engine? I'm reminded of Air France 447 where the PiC did not seem to understand how stalls occur
Watching on TV, Aircraft Crash Investigation 🇬🇧. (I think it's called Mayday x3 in 🇺🇸) It's astonishing how many professional pilots don't realise they're stalling and do incorrect actions to solve the problem.
I was actually living in Vegas when this one happened! Man, thank you for doing this one. IIRC, even the initial news reports made it clear it was heavy for the aircraft AND the temperatures that day. Thank you again for all your work
The first mistake was on the apron, well before they took off, when they overloaded the airplane. From then on, the additional mistakes were just another nail in their coffins. How terribly sad that bravado, in my opinion, was the key factor in this tragedy. May the rest in peace.
I'm not a pilot. Is it bravado, is it trying to cut corners to save time, or is it the abject stupidity of someone who doesn't understand how aircraft weight affects aircraft performance? I just don't understand how you get in an aircraft without considering its load limit.
@@danepatterson8107 probably like was said in the video, false confidence. You always have some margin for error if you follow the rules, so even when you break the rules, chances are nothing bad will happen. Do it a few times, get away with it, and you start believing you can do it every time. The problem is, of course, that following the rules might give you a, say, 0.1 % risk of something going wrong, but by ignoring the rules the risk goes up to 10%, without you knowing it. You can take a 0.1% risk many times, but a 10% risk will come to punish you much sooner.
@@danepatterson8107Helicopter pilots know that helicopters can fly perfectly well at weights that they couldn’t lift the ship off the runway to a 3’ hover with . It’s just a fact of helicopter life. That’s probably why they were not as concerned as they should’ve been about this whole scenario.
Overloading wasn't the issue. They could still fly and climb. They were literally just stupid and clearly didn't plan anything. They didn't know the elevation they had to get above, they flew into a valley. This low iq behaviour. They could have climbed in a circle to get over the mountains height before they got to it but again they were clearly low iq fools.
This is so instructive. Thanks for showing us the list of five bad attitudes. These guys were insanely negligent; suicidally so. All they had to do was add power! How could five highly trained aviators ignore the stall warning horn?! And not be able to deploy the parachute? This story is one for the ages, a top ten contender.
I am an airline pilot for 25 years. Now captain of an Airbus A350. When I was a young copilot on A320 I filed a report that standby duty must not be 24 hours long. I wrote that it should be limited to 12 hours. I had standby duty for 24 hours before I received a call that I need to fly from A to B and back from B to A. That meant that I needed to be on duty for 12 hours after being on standby for 24 hours for 2 consecutive days. 48 hours in a row. Flying back from B to A. I literally had visual hallucination from fatigue. After filing my report I got weeks of a shitstorm from coworkers of my company. Today the standby duty is split into 3 parts.....early, middle and late standby.
I have a little over 40hrs in a c172 and there is still a lot I’m still learning however I take safety very seriously. I’m glad we have channels like this in this day and age.
I’ve been in the aviation industry for decades and a commercial pilot for 22 years. My experience tells me that these men will not repeat their mistakes.
7:30 Indeed. One of the passenger on Aloha Airlines Flight 243 noticed cracks in the plane and was concerned but assumed they knew about the cracks. They did not. If you say something about a concern you have say something. At worst they will just say, "Yea, we know. It'll be fine." But in case they might say, "Crap, we can't fly like that." then saying something will save lives.
Or maybe that one passenger who noticed the cracks in the airplane didn't say anything because they were one of those people who are too polite to make a fuss.
Sad to think nowadays saying something about a crack might get you on a no-fly list. The last time I actually looked around & checked where the emergency exits were the guy next to me gave me a dirty look. He was wearing sandals & dressed in synthetics, I was not. Pretty sad.
@@dicksonfranssen Nah, you've got it all wrong dickie-boy. What's pretty sad is those tryhard wannabe's who get on a commercial flight, berate the other passengers for not having a notebook and pencil to to survive the four year wait for CSAR to show up when the three hour overland flight crashes within walking distance of a major population centre, and start giving it billy big bollocks about how they came prepared to HALO straight out the window if a wheel falls off the drinks trolley. Now _that_ is sad. Cringeworthy. Pathetic even. You know anyone like that dickie?
As a pilot, I usually like to watch these to avoid mistakes and be a safer pilot, but this flight had so much going wrong it’s hard to pick the worst thing done to create the crash. It’s more of a wonder how they made it as far as they did!
Makes you wonder just how MANY pilots out there are behaving this way and getting away with it. Likely thousands. As Hoover said they get away with it once, then twice, then the 100th time and then one day get bitten. No matter how close you are to a pilot buddy - if they exhibit any of these characteristics do not get in that airplane .
Yep,new a buddy who overloaded his plane; and I told him I wasn't getting in.stayed on the ramp,while left reno...he told me later that he had to fly to oak..with the yoke all the way forward and made adjustments with the throttls!!! We never flew together again!!
I joined a flying club and the people in the group who have assumed the role of “maintaining” the airplane have exhibited this kind of behavior. They work with an inexperienced A&P and he signs off their work to “save money.” Recently, one of them experienced an engine out in the airplane because they didn’t realize the airplane had vented fuel caps. They’ve also mentioned to me that they’re building an airplane and bragged about taking several shortcuts to save money, one of which is using a converted Subaru engine from a company that has already been responsible for at least one accident. Yeah… I’m selling my share and getting as far away from them as possible.
I love how this channel goes through accidents involving smaller aircraft... As someone who's interested in learning to fly, these are the stories that I can relate to, as opposed to the larger commercial accidents that channels such as Mentour Pilot goes over. I'm never going to become a professional pilot, but I could see myself getting my private pilot's licence and these are just the types of tales I want drilled into me.
I am a trainee pilot and always enjoy your very educational vídeos. I am learning a lot and would like to thank you for your time and dedication to enlighten other airmen. All the best mate.
I once had to cancel a Cessna 172 flight because friends invited other overweight friends and it would have put us overweight and in the high density altitude out of Chandler Arizona. I lost friends that day and so the peer pressure is real. To cancel a flight when you've got three friends who are expecting to go on a trip, it's hard, but we're all still alive even though we aren't friends anymore, I've made into my late 60s. 😀
I do training in another field but I have never seen the 5 hazardous attitudes before. It is so relevant to underground mining. I am new to accident investigation and watch your videos because I always seem to learn something from every video. Thank you.
I am here because I was friends with Chris and wanted to know about the accident. The story in the paper was very different and you have cleared things up.
The rate at which "Tried & failed to outclimb the terrain" accidents keep happening shows that, collectively, we're doing a seriously inadequate job of distributing mountain-flying knowledge. Thanks for helping to address this problem.
Another very useful video, thanks. The hazardous attitudes and the normalisation of deviance you point out are extremely relevant and your videos are making a great contribution to my son’s flying training. I’ve spent the morning in the simulator here in the UK conducting a recurrent check on a 777 crew and the first thing I did when I got in is check your channel to see the upload, so thanks for delivering. A couple of minor points - my understanding is that a wing actually generates a lot of lift when approaching the critical AoA ie when the stall warner is sounding, the problem is there’s an awful lot of drag also…and Vy is best rate of climb, not best angle of climb. I remember that because an old instructor told me that the X in Vx looks like a gate and if you’re trying to fly over the gate at the end of the field, it’s best angle you’re going to need…keep up the great work
A very similar accident happened at Wanaka here in New Zealand - four commercial pilots died trying to fly up a valley ... with overcast clouds - you would have thought one of them would have said STOP.
I work at an FBO. One morning , a Cessna 414 landed and taxied to our ramp for fuel. In the meantime, it started raining and sleeting. Heavy ice started accumulating all over the airplane. After being fueled, the two pilots were getting ready to board the aircraft to fly but I urged them to let me put the aircraft in a heated hangar to melt the ice. They agreed and it was good to know that hopefully, they made it safely to their destination.
@@flycatchfulFor me he is 100% wrong. A plane in the air will certainly fly with no gas. It’s just a matter of how long before it stops flying…stall / crash or emergency landing. OTOH, a plane over gross will not fly better because I’m never taking it into the air in the first place.
@@flycatchful Technically, it depends... Is he on the runway and out of gas? Is he full tanked but over weight by an absurd amount? The reason you don't fly with someone who says that should be obvious: they are rationalizing personally-invented heuristics to justify the fact that they are comfortable with unsafe practices (in two ways at least!): Gross weight and fuel are both limits that drastically increase danger. When someone tells you who they are, believe them!
They called that the day the helicopters died. Can you imagine losing 4 of your best pilots on one crash like that. It must have been really tough for the tour company. Helicopters are not easy to fly. The swiss cheese monster came out again. Tragic. 😪
Such a sad story.. I really appreciate your integration of the critical attitude & behavior factors into your analysis of the event.. We need to be incessantly reminded of the danger of falling into those traps…
Thank you for this debrief. Thanks for being respectful breaking down this accident. Todd was in my commercial ground school (rotorcraft). Great guy who served in the Marine's. I found out about this accident from Todd's parents. They sent me an email. Totally broke my heart. Fly safe everybody!
I was doing a flight with a friend, he was the PIC and he said he was bringing a friend and I told me too so it was four in total. The aircraft was a DA 40. So I told him at longest we do a weight & balance we should be fine but on the day of the flight he didn’t do weight & balance and he said I thought that I did it for him. He was so ready to go, doors close and my instincts kicked it and I told we need do to a weight & balance and not go by on each person weight to adjust it on who weight less or more. Lucky one of the passengers decided he didn’t wanna go and that really saves us because we were 225 overweight. Overall I wasn’t going to takeoff either way without a weight & balance. Hope this story will find useful to other pilots to be vigilant on weight & balance.
Thank you for the topic emphasis here. You call it "attitude". I call it personality. I choose my word because my experience is that the behavior is more "baked in". The person is blind to it. The more of your debriefs I watch, the more my mental tally rises where personality is a culprit. Your personality is so even keel, I fear viewers miss the nuance when you state that rules "are written in blood". But better you model the sober mindset a pilot should possess than introduce unnecessary drama. Really good work. I hope this channel reaches folks who need to have their flawed attitudes exposed.
Cirrus has a specific training guide, CAPS was a huge part of that. One of the first things I did was get CAPS certified, also during preflight briefing you are to educate everyone on board about this system and brief them on how it works. Even if the pilot becomes incapacitated, POH states for the passenger to pull caps, reduce power to idle, cut mixture and power off. I feel if proper preflight was done, SOMEONE would have grabbed that red handle in panic and at least would have gave them a chance. My instructor told me if you have any question about staying airborne, you pull that damn handle. Insurance is there for a reason.
Thank you Hoover for this debrief. Valuable lessons especially for those who are flying now. After losing 3 fellow pilots in 2 separate accidents, it's traumatic & stressful. Hopefully more lives can be saved with these videos. Thank you. 👍
Thanks for another great video and Analysis. I found that as a private pilot, It is extremely important to know the plane's and your own limitations. Also, it feels like even if they had not crashed this time, it would eventually have happend.
This case is really tragical because it shows in the most dratical way how deadly the combination overconfidence in combination with lack of experice with the flown aircraft is. It is sad that this tragedy - like so many others analyzed in your pilot debriefs, could have been avoided easyly if one of the involved experienced helicopter pilots would have reacted on at least one of the mentioned mistakes. Thank you for another great debrief.
The vibration of general aviation engines can absolutely move the throttle of certain aircraft without any pilot intervention... many aircraft have a lock to try and prevent that from happening.
I had a friend in the early 80’s, new pilot with around 200hrs. Flying his wife and 3 young children from Trail BC to Calgary….through two mountain ranges. Got boxed in, tried the infamous turn and tried to put it down on a forestry road. Almost made it. Wing clipped a tree, spinning and abruptly stopped. Him and his wife both died, their 2yr old in the back seat slipped out of her seatbelt and hit the instrument panel also died. Their two sons also in the back survived with minor injuries. Mom and dad were not wearing their shoulder harness and only used the lap belt. The impact kept them in their seat but they were flung forward both breaking their necks on the instrument panel. The plane only had a 12”dia dent on the wing and the engine was fully operational and run during the TSB investigation. This was, as many others, totally avoidable and survivable had the been wearing the full harnesses. At the time, it was common knowledge that new pilots with @200hrs are at the critical point of their flying abilities as their confidence grows faster than their awareness of their surroundings. I remember this like it was yesterday😢
Well done debrief, as usual! We ALL carry at least one of the Hazardous Attitudes to varying degree. Being *aware* of which HA (or which combination of HAs) one carries - the potential blind spot one has - allows for correction for this attitude. Each HA has a correction - and just being cognizant of one’s own tendency towards a HA, and awareness of the corrective step, gives a person the ability to compensate for their own HA.
I had a mountain checkout in a C182 a few decades ago. We flew to Leadville and back from Erie Tri County (now Erie Municipal. The Convair Restaurant is gone now but they put the fuselage of a Convair on top of a building. It was a good restaurant ). We flew up the I70 corridor (aka canyon). The CFI told me that if I saw terrain rising ahead of me I was too low. As we neared the tunnel the terrain was definitely rising above me. The new CFI in the back seat (tagging along for the experience) echo'd my concern when I pointed it out to the CFI. I didn't think there was room to turn around and he had us traveling down the middle of the canyon vs hugging the wall in preparation to turn around, which was where my mind had gone. When we pointed the problem out the CFI said we were fine and about 5 minutes later he had me make a left turn into another canyon. We made it to Leadville, stopped to stretch our legs, and get the "certificate" for landing at the highest elevation airport in the US, etc. I preflighted again, asked if we needed to top off with fuel, he said nope, and not long after that I knew why. DA was high. It wasn't hot otherwise it would have been impossibly high. The takeoff roll was long. Climb rate was dismal. If we had added fuel (one of the intended lessons) we would have had to reject the takeoff. We circled in the pattern until we got enough altitude to head back the way we had come. There were many other lessons learned on that trip. One of them was the 45 degree entry to high terrain that you mentioned. He was young instructor but a really, really good instructor. When we got back to Erie he asked me what my takeaway was from the mountain checkout. (1) I really liked the C182 vs the C172's that I had been flying. (2) Don't fly in the mountains. It was fun. The scenery is fantastic. The experience was valuable. The risks outweigh the reward. It's not a casual thing to fly in the mountains. More recently I flew out of KFMN for 5 years. A lot of that time was in a C172B. DA gets a lot of pilots up there. Like me, they come from flat land near sea level and they don't respect DA. When I transitioned to a C172RG later I could fly it more but it weighs 1,000 # more than the C172B I was flying. Raising the gear offset that some. The constant speed prop was helpful. But... some days are just best spent on the ground.
12:00 sadly, given what you laid out for us, Chris may have lived only to crash again. It's likely his attitude towards fixed-wing flying would not have shifted past 2,300 RPM.
09:45 you are correct. Even the Robinson has a governor. The only 2 helicopters I know off the top of my head without a governor are the Bell 47 and the Schweizer 300. These are old designs. I’m sure there’s others, but the main point is that virtually all modern helicopters have governors to control the throttle. Also, the rotor RPM doesn’t need to be “set.” It operates at a constant rate at all times. There is no situation where you would change the rotor RPM.
What if the governor starts to malfunction mid-flight? Would you then be able to control the throttle manually? Is there some way to practice it for emergency situations? Or would it be easy to control manually if you had never done it before?
I played a lot of WW2 aviation games. What I realized is that those old WW2 planes were much larger and much more powerful than I ever knew. Didn't really think about it because they were only seating one pilot, or two. But then you compare it to a more modern aircraft and realize that a WW2 Spitfire was pretty much double the performance of a Cessna 172.
Pilot flies drunk, still has pilots license. I feel like the failure in this scenario is not the pilot, but the system. FAA should never have allowed this person to have a license again. Driving drunk is one thing and bad enough, but flying... nope, just hell nope. Man has no regard for life and safety in general and that is proven and practiced in his actions.
Not having a license does not deter a lot of people from flying, as long as they have access to an airplane. I went to work at an FBO as a line boy in 1977, and I saw a lot of sketchy stuff. Luckily for me, I guess, these things helped shape my attitude in a positive manner.
@@TheAncientOneYT You would think, but that’s not the case. I knew a guy who brokered antique and classic airplanes and was always taking prospective buyers out for demo flights. He had no pilot’s license.
@@jgbonney Yes I know, but my point is if accountability is held on a higher level, not just aimed at the pilot, then these things would happen far less often. FAA, Airport, etc.. should be held responsible for 1: allowing someone for total disregard of life to hold a license to begin with and 2: Any airport not doing their due diligence and checking pilots that fly out of their location. In this case, FAA should really be rethinking how they allow people to still have a pilot license. It is always "pilot at fault" when many cases, other people knew the negligence of the person flying the plane. Honestly, it is sad. It could have been prevented by simply revoking him to begin with and enforcing no license - no fly regulations. Yeah, there will still be a 1 off (such as the young man who was maint for an airline and stole a plane and crashed it) but there are always faults, but no excuse for not controlling what can be controlled..
@@TheAncientOneYT Dream on...Criminals should not have guns, yet thousands of shootings occur, dozens daily, with unlicensed people with unregistered guns. Furthermore, licensed pilots with valid medicals and current check rides, fly all the time, but are woefully incapable.
I love to watch your videos. Very informative and respectful. I'm not in the aviation field,but am in the heavy equipment field for 50+ years. Never thought of the holes lining up in the swiss cheese analogy,but instead used the line. We all take chances from time to time, and get away with it. But now and then, careless and unlucky align. Tragedy then happens.
I am rather glad Hoover is really focusing on flying attitudes, mentalities if you will. On reflection of my humble bit of flying experience, I cannot say overall that I fit any of those descriptions, but I'm pretty sure I had my bad days and could have been anyone of them for that given moment; kind of scary thought. We are all human, after all.
In my opinion- if you are a pilot and ‘having bad days’ you should surrender your license and get a psychologist. No matter what’s going on around you if you don’t have the self discipline and maturity to check yourself and leave stuff ‘at the door’ I could argue operating an automobile is too much for you. So piloting an airplane is just plain off the list. Then again, guys having bad days gives hoover something to debrief, unfortunately.
@@fishhuntadventure That's just silly. If that is the standard, then no one is qualified to fly, and I never said I was flying on those bad days. Because no one absolutely no one is above or beyond fallibility or always has the best attitude at all times. The point of my comment is that anyone is capable of falling into these mindsets and self examination and just being honest with yourself about your current mindset. But hey the opportunity of making a ridiculously harsh comment online is just something you couldn't resist, seems a bit impulsive.
I’m not a pilot, but I watch many videos of airplane crashes. One of the common factors seems to be lack of throttle why are pilots so quick to pull back on the throttle? Is it to save fuel? I would think if the stall warning is sounding the first thing you should do is check the throttle and make sure it is fully engaged. The next thing I would do is check that the flaps are retracted and the landing gear is up. Is that correct? Like I said, I’ve never flown a plane in my life, but that seems like the logical steps to take.
Another excellent assessment sir. You’re just helping future and current pilots to understand that they’re not invulnerable because they have some flight experience. You have probably saved lives without knowing that you have.
Throttling-back has been historically related to a lot of incidents and accidents. I once listened to a group of pilots, which included the radio host, talking about flight accidents on an all-night broadcast. I remember it being said that a high percentage of pilots who survived crashes or forced landings stated that they had just throttled-back, sometime after take-off, when the motor cut-out or quit on them, or the plane dropped unexpectedly and put them into a dangerous situation.
Thanks for the excellent coverage of the various bad attitude problems, Hoover. Yes, the fuel control governor maintains rotor rpm until too much collective pitch with too little power causes rotor decay. There are some crop duster and mountain pilot defaults that could help with falling into one or two of these bad attitudes, but not all. Level in low ground effect until cruise airspeed and then cruise climb on takeoff, down drainage egress, use of orographic lift in the mountains, and when pulling doesn't cause any climb just push can fix some poor planning but not all.
Love your videos. Not a pilot just a flight sim enthusiast but your videos are so in depth and eye opening it blows my mind how some people take enormous risks.
Sounds more like 4 people in a flying circus. It's insane to think that a pilot making a climb forgets to advance the throttle. The Tachometer, ASI and VSI as well as listening to the engine note, was the give away.
If you are curious about Cirrus training...this incident happened during a time when Cirrus deaths were their highest levels. This led to Cirrus completely overhauling their training and making special transition courses/training for Cirrus aircraft. This drastically reduced the number of deaths while simultaneously increasing the number of CAPS saves. This is NOT a sponsored video and I won't make any money from it, but if you want a recommendation for Cirrus training, I've added some info in the video description.
Links to the videos I mentioned in this story:
Pilot's Reckless Mistakes Kills Instagram Star 👉ruclips.net/video/mKfM4PKPmvw/видео.html
Dad Flies Drunk - Gets Son Killed! 👉ruclips.net/video/hFMqMyC0XZQ/видео.html
I'm not a pilot but after watching all your videos I'm not going to hold my tongue if I see ANYthing that begs for answers
as I'll say I'm sorry afterwards if it turns out that I am wrong, sobeit.... I've learned that much since watching you, GB ALL
You do excellent analysis. Thank you
Hi Hoover.
Can't find your post where you asked about collecting feedback from your subscribers.
Anyways, fantastic channel, your content is always excellent and it's very apparent you're an upmost professional operator.
I just watched this video and enjoyed it so much I watched it again straight after. Although I played it at 0.75x which was a little bit slow. Myself, and perhaps others, listen to every word in your script (as you make them all count) it's clear you don't have unnecessary filler words, entirely focused on the pertinent issues. Perhaps you could look at your delivery speed, although it's just as easy to adjust it in the settings myself. People with English as a second language may also find your commentary goes at quite a quick clip.
All the best.
I noticed flight instructors are all about safety and the rest are about everything but safety.....
Thanks @mark-ish! I appreciate the feedback.
Here's the survey link: forms.gle/P14n3uamEZrdzk7eA
I like Hoover's ability to point out mistakes without being demeaning.
It emphasizes that we can make mistakes without being bad people.
His debriefing's are invaluable. He must have been a hell of a pilot.
“The stall warning horn has been sounding for 3 minutes!” - “Relax - we got a parachute.”
This might have to be Cirrus’s new motto
oh boy
phhaas7413 it sure is plenty to chose from😢
BINGO a winner
If you’re too low that parachute 🪂 is just to help search and rescue 🛟 to find you
Not sure if there is an Altitude restriction by means of above sea level
But high density altitude means parachute 🪂 will take longer. One more if you’re in a flat spin coming down like a falling leaf 🍁 does CAPS work well
Not in training CAPS manual
If you haven't got many hours on the aircraft (and for all the other reasons mentioned in the video), you might also not be in a state of mind where you remember you have a parachute available to deploy
Excellent Video. Am a commercial helicopter pilot with over 15k hours and only a little over 500 hours in fixed wing. Though flying a helo is second nature, flying fixed for now is like being a 16 year old with a new drivers license… we all know what that was like. A key difference between the two types of aircraft is that the helo can be landed on a postage stamp in the event of an engine failure but am constantly scanning for long unobstructed landing zones in the fixed. Am constantly learning from your debriefs and they have helped immensely in keeping focused and precise while flying fixed. This particular debrief hit more at home because of the involvement of the helo pilots.
Same here, ATP/CFI Helicopter pilot with over 15000 plus hours, a littler over 120 hours airplane. Everything between Bell 47s to SK-61s.
You don't need much for fixed wing. Couple hundred feet. All it has to be is a survivable deceleration. Don't kill yourself trying to save the aircraft.
“Don’t assume that people know what they’re doing.” Advice for life lol
100%
Spend a few hours at a boat ramp, and you will see people who don't know what they're doing! 🤷🙈😳🤔😂
Friends & family look at me crazy when I tell them I operate life with this belief lol
I would go so far as to say that you want to assume they don't know what they are doing, especially with safety critical decisions where something feels off.
@@richguitarmusic6781 That is a terrific comparaison but speaking as a licensed Master if you open your mouth fights and more start no matter your credentials and experience.
The minute you said 4 men in that little Sirrus, _my "aircraft overweight" alarms-bells rang._
with fishing gear!!
Mine too
Yep, I owned an SR22T for several years and really loved it, but it's not possible to load all 4 seats and fuel. Any gear and your W&B is way outside the limits.
@@randyscorner9434 When you say "not possible to load all 4 seats and fuel" do you mean 4 grown men? Cause we load all 4 seats with adults all the time. Granted one adult is probably 120 lbs. and we don't have any issues.
It's crazy to think that 4 CFI's would deliberately takeoff overweight.
It is, not to mention that helicopter pilots know just as well what a VSI is, and are probably more sensitive to CFIT than fixed wing pilots...
and being CFI's were used to looking at the instruments as the PIC flies...
and I think everyone knows that a cirrus doesn't have an autothrottle... He had to apply full power to take off didn't he....
Very hard to understand....
*take off. “Takeoff” is the compound noun based on the two-word verb phrase “take off”.
@@PRH123 "and being CFI's were used to looking at the instruments as the PIC flies..."
Are you under the impression that CFIs only watch the instruments when teaching?
@@Tom-zs6bb nope, I'm not
@@PRH123 Okay, good. When you posted "and being CFI's were used to looking at the instruments as the PIC flies...," what were you trying to say?
All four pilots were guilty of complacency. Even the two in the rear could have questioned the flight at any time. You summed it up perfectly when you stated, "the rules and the limits are written in blood".
All rules are written in blood, he didn’t make that up he was taught that in the service…
@@jmax8692true. That's drilled into our heads before our first solo flights.
As helicopter flight instructors, they're guilty of contempt for fixed wing aircraft pilots.
What an absurd statement…🤦♂️🙄🥴😂
@@stevenpayne3707 bro, literally every single warning lable was written in blood... every. single. one.
the number of people that have to die for laws to change varies based on the subject, but make no mistake there is a body count. from drunk driving laws to the regulations of infant carseats, its all written in blood.
I love your debriefs . Not a pilot but honestly your common sense crosses many margins in life . I think we should should live with less abandon .
second that
...plus one.
Awareness buys you time, time buys you options - until it doesn't. Thank you for providing awareness.
"Fly your aircraft all the way to the crash site." - anonymous, but from this channel somewhere.
''...four grown men, fishing gear...'' You forgot the cases of beer (and maybe water, food etc.)
Never forget the beer.
And pot and drugs, or maybe they did that before takeoff
Don’t forget all the camera gear to film this fishing trip for their RUclips channel.
Actually, beer IS fishing gear.
@@cadesmith4278 Beer cooled in a mountain stream is something special
Whoa! Talk about chills when you said Eric Vallente. Eric was the pilot on the crash that killed my brother. I say, the more I watch this channel, I will never fly on a private plane.
I'm sorry for your loss
I know private pilots, not a lot, but who are consumate professions. Ask questions about their flight plan, weight and balance. Ask to see it. If they make an excuse to not produce them, walk away.
@pilotrt This is a great filter-test.
I've only flown with GA pilots who exhibited strict and analytical characteristics. Turned down invites from a few who I felt had the wrong personalities for GA.
I have been an Aircraft Mechanic for years. There are many pilots I would not fly with. I am proud to say, that all the Professional pilots I know are very qualified and experienced. If you have concerns about a pilots ability, privately ask the mechanics who work on the plane.
Sorry for your loss😢 Feel the same way. My deceased husband flew with a cowboy pilot, who broke something in a gale force wind - brake bar, is that a thing? Pilot's ego did not want to taxi back and prepared for takeoff - my husband climbed out in the middle of the runway and took a bus home.
At an airshow, a private pilot was giving sightseeing rides in his plane. Bear in mind, this was in the early nineties, virtually before the internet and definitely before YT. I paid for my hubby and son to go on a flight (I'm terrified of heights), then got the creepiest feeling that small aircraft are not safe, and if there was an accident and I survived I would never forgive myself. So I got on that plane too, spent the entire flight clenched fists, head on my knees, missed all the scenery, was very relieved afterwards and have never been on a non commercial flight since.
Flying will expose you. Your imperfections. Your faults. Your errors. Your weaknesses. The lies you tell yourself. And nobody is perfect.
And that's why I won't become a pilot. I'm an 80/20 guy, not a checklist guy.
@@danepatterson8107 same. As a kid, i really wanted to be a pilot... as i've gotten older, particularly after watching channels like this (excellent) one.. i've realised I lack the precision and diligence to do it safely. The only thing safe for me to fly is "into rages". :D
yeah. I'm too old and relaxed to do that correctly anymore
100000%! - awesome statement
Yes, I never took up the opportunity because I am the exact polar opposite of all these 5 characteristics. That might have made me a good student pilot, but I would never ever dare to go solo.
I’m a dual rated commercial pilot and instructor. They are different worlds. Helicopter pilots tend to look at fixed wing flying as “easy”. Helicopter pilots often don’t get as much experience with weather and as much performance planning because helicopter trips tend to be short, not passing through different weather systems.
The worst thing is that W/B is so trivially easy to calculate nowadays.
You just plug some numbers into foreflight, and it tells you if you’re gonna fly or crash today.
I did my Discovery flight recently and that was one of the first things I asked because I am overweight.
The CFI simply pulled up a tablet and showed me the line graph with fuel and weight. It automatically showed the plans limits and was like "see this diamond under this line? Means well be fine."
We even discussed the hot weather, air density, engine performance, all that stuff. Seemed so...logical and standard? It was a pretty quick and casual conversation. I am surprised when I listen to these videos.
I fly an SR20 and can add a few things:
-Correction: the SR20 model they were flying is only 200hp. This was a deliberate design by Cirrus so pilots didn’t need a high performance endorsement (any plane with >200hp)
Though since 2017 the SR20 came with 215hp
-In order to take 4 adults (pilot + 3 pax), I need fuel at tabs (a little less than half full on each wing) and 0 bags. And on a hot day with altitude? Forget it.
The SR20 is an amazing plane but it pales in comparison with a 22 or 22T in useful load…the 20 with full fuel and some bags is a 2 adults airplane.
in some ways it would be better if small single-engine aircraft only came with 2 seats if that is their worst case capacity at a worst case density altitude. I understand the marketing "need" for more seats but it is inevitably a problem for some people...
@@davedoe6445 The back seats would be mainly meant for children. And if you took out the seats that would probably just give guys like this reason to cram more stuff in there, with the same result. Changing the aircraft because people wantonly ignore the performance specifications, doesn't really change the outcome here.
Depending on which generation of sr20, you can have about 900 lbs of useful load including fuel. Fuel to tab will allow you to carry 750 lbs of human !!!
A little more if it is g3 and above.
Derating of the continental io360 to 200 hp should supposedly improve the life expectancy of the engine, which is what cirrus wanted. HP Endorsement is not a big deal as majority of cirrus sold are sr22x.
On an important matter, the currency requirement for SR2x are 10 hours per 60 days as per 2007 Cirrus's FOM.
@@boneseyyl1060
I agree. But on the other hand, if you wanted to do a short local tour trip, you'd load way less fuel and the 2 adults in the back aren't a big deal anymore.
@@boneseyyl1060 many weight/balance caused accidents would beg to differ with your conclusion. I get that grownups can make hard choices, but not everyone acts grown up.
How does a helicopter pilot skip doing weight and balance?! The weight limits for helicopters are WAYY tighter than for airplanes, so I would think every helicopter pilot would always do a weight and balance. Being a helicopter pilot myself I sure do!
Being about 40 hours into my PPL has shown me just how incredibly fun and rewarding flying is but also how important safety is at all times. Safety is ALWAYS a priority.
Having 42 myself, it’s also shown me just how willing other pilots to go anywhere near getting themselves killed under normal operations; never mind emergencies, when it can’t always be helped.
That's an excellent attitude to have. I've had my PPL since 2019, picked up my instrument in 2020 and been slowly time building and just started getting serious about my commercial this year at about 222 hours. You'll learn a lot in your training about decision making and risk assessment. Expect that to be a major part of your oral exam and checkride. It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground. Trust your gut if something doesn't feel right, always be humble and honest with yourself about your limits and abilities, never let anyone pressure you into ignoring those instincts, and never be afraid to speak up and question things if you're flying with someone and they're doing something questionable. Good luck with your PPL. Be safe and have fun, in that order!
You are incorrect sir. Safety is always THE TOP priority.
I'm about as far into it... The written exam did have a question about exceeding max takeoff weight, but I don't remember one of the possible answers to be "don't do the calculations and just wing it".
Have a PPL(H) since 1996 and in excess of 15,000 hours of UK flying under my belt.
The safety record in the USA makes me question the teaching process.
I expected better judgement from those pilots. As a pilot for 30 years and accident investigator I still have great respect for flying, even more since I have been on so many fatal accident sites. For many pilots it is easy to sit in a chair and read about a pilot mishap and think I can do it better. But to be on a fatal accident side is a different story! Your flying will never be the same if you have seen one accident site! On all accidents that I investigated, I never found a technical mailfunction! It was always human related!!! Thank you Hoover for sharing this video as pilot debrief.
I watch your videos with great interest and find them very informative. I'm not a pilot, but an avid flight simmer. Back when I was around 18 years old (long ago now), I flew with a group of friends - members of an amateur sports team, from Mpls. to Chicago. The flight down was uneventful, and being young, the thought of a problem never occurred to me. On the flight back we were racing a storm front that was heading towards Mpls. and the pilot was only VFR rated. To speed our departure, we didn't refuel for the flight back.
Enroute the one of the tanks ran dry, the engine sputtered and you could feel the plane lose its lift. The pilot managed to switch tanks and get the engine back up to speed. We were vectored to a small airstrip in southern MN where, after a failed attempt at landing and a go-around, the pilot managed to land the plane. After refueling, the storm had moved in - and the pilot was trying to convince everyone that he could fly under the clouds and follow the roads back to Mpls.
After I refused to fly with him under those conditions, he enlisted two IFR pilots to come down in a second plane, and each pilot took a few of us back in those planes. Our plane was first to land at the destination airport outside of Mpls area. The second plane was unable to locate the airport beacon in the weather and eventually had to divert to another nearby airport and land there. I often wonder what would have happened had I agreed to fly and we all took off with that inexperienced and non-IFR pilot. I lost all interest in real-world GA flying after that unsettling experience. I think perhaps my decision saved lives...including my own.
definitely did. Thats why see something say something is so important.
You are correct, turbine powered helicopters have a governor. It is set after start and running rotor up to speed, and you essentially forget about throttle until going to ground idle to cool down the engine before shut down. All control is then via varying the collective pitch of the main rotor, and the turbine automatically varies output power to match the load you place on it. Variable pitch or constant speed airplane props work differently. You must adjust both throttle and pitch controls for desired speed and power. So bad habits from normal helo ops were a factor here. That and the helo he flew had a ton of extra power, whereas the Cirrus flying into a box canyon, overweight - no margin for error.
And also pulling back on the cyclic in a helo merely shows down to a hover. Almost no danger in pulling back to correct a situation in a helo. But it is the exact wrong move in a fixed wing when stall horn blares. There is no "stall" warning in a helo. the only thing you have to worry about is entering a vortex ring state on slowing and descending. (must not exceed -300 to -400 ft/min when slowing and descending) Bottom line is there are bad/wrong/fatal habits that any rotary wing pilot has if moving to fixed wing, and also bad fixed wing habits that can kill you in a helo too.
the problem with anti authority attitude is the authority in aviation is the laws of physics and aerodynamics, which are immutable. (so bucking them is foolish to say the least)
Very informative. Thanks.
Are you rated in helicopters, dboss?
Well put. In your opinion, would you say fixed wing was harder to fly than heli?
@@Tom-zs6bb Not in reality, but in flight sim, I have 300+ hours in a Hughes 500D, Former fixed wing pilot in reality.
@@duncan649 They are different. I was a fixed winger who then learned rotary wing. There's things that are common and some things you have to unlearn when going from one to the other. I'm not sure which is harder, but my sense is it is more dangerous to go from helo to fixed as there is more to consider. Well maybe not, but the "safe" flight envelope is considerably different for the two classes of aircraft. And if you carry learned/conditioned responses to upsets from one to the other it could be catastrophic.
Some pilots seem to think that aircraft fly because of their will instead of the laws of physics. How do you ignore max weight? When your stall warning is blaring for 3 minutes, how do you fail to increase power to the engine? I'm reminded of Air France 447 where the PiC did not seem to understand how stalls occur
Watching on TV, Aircraft Crash Investigation 🇬🇧. (I think it's called Mayday x3 in 🇺🇸)
It's astonishing how many professional pilots don't realise they're stalling and do incorrect actions to solve the problem.
AF flight 447 had two first officers at the controls. The Captain came back from a restroom break just before the plane stalled
Even a parachute can't fix bad judgement. Sad outcome. Thanks for the 'attitude' reminders.
Though a parachute can help you, it makes flying feel safer even when it doesn't help.
Yeah, the time to depend on a parachute isn't when way overloaded. That's gonna be a hard landing, even if it deploys without ripping apart.
I was actually living in Vegas when this one happened! Man, thank you for doing this one. IIRC, even the initial news reports made it clear it was heavy for the aircraft AND the temperatures that day. Thank you again for all your work
"Don't do anything dumb, dangerous, or different." Part of the standard Tweet solo briefing from the SOF!
Should be first item on the checklist!
@@sg9414 Did they even look at the checklist?
The first mistake was on the apron, well before they took off, when they overloaded the airplane. From then on, the additional mistakes were just another nail in their coffins. How terribly sad that bravado, in my opinion, was the key factor in this tragedy. May the rest in peace.
I'm not a pilot. Is it bravado, is it trying to cut corners to save time, or is it the abject stupidity of someone who doesn't understand how aircraft weight affects aircraft performance? I just don't understand how you get in an aircraft without considering its load limit.
@@danepatterson8107 probably like was said in the video, false confidence. You always have some margin for error if you follow the rules, so even when you break the rules, chances are nothing bad will happen. Do it a few times, get away with it, and you start believing you can do it every time. The problem is, of course, that following the rules might give you a, say, 0.1 % risk of something going wrong, but by ignoring the rules the risk goes up to 10%, without you knowing it. You can take a 0.1% risk many times, but a 10% risk will come to punish you much sooner.
Delicious Swiss cheese
@@danepatterson8107Helicopter pilots know that helicopters can fly perfectly well at weights that they couldn’t lift the ship off the runway to a 3’ hover with . It’s just a fact of helicopter life.
That’s probably why they were not as concerned as they should’ve been about this whole scenario.
Overloading wasn't the issue. They could still fly and climb. They were literally just stupid and clearly didn't plan anything. They didn't know the elevation they had to get above, they flew into a valley. This low iq behaviour. They could have climbed in a circle to get over the mountains height before they got to it but again they were clearly low iq fools.
“Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.”
This is so instructive. Thanks for showing us the list of five bad attitudes. These guys were insanely negligent; suicidally so. All they had to do was add power! How could five highly trained aviators ignore the stall warning horn?! And not be able to deploy the parachute? This story is one for the ages, a top ten contender.
This channel is the best. Such great info. No doubt you are saving lives. This should be mandatory for all new pilots before getting their license
I am an airline pilot for 25 years. Now captain of an Airbus A350. When I was a young copilot on A320 I filed a report that standby duty must not be 24 hours long. I wrote that it should be limited to 12 hours. I had standby duty for 24 hours before I received a call that I need to fly from A to B and back from B to A. That meant that I needed to be on duty for 12 hours after being on standby for 24 hours for 2 consecutive days. 48 hours in a row. Flying back from B to A. I literally had visual hallucination from fatigue. After filing my report I got weeks of a shitstorm from coworkers of my company. Today the standby duty is split into 3 parts.....early, middle and late standby.
I have a little over 40hrs in a c172 and there is still a lot I’m still learning however I take safety very seriously.
I’m glad we have channels like this in this day and age.
I'm an ATP retired airline captain, you never stop learning. When you think you know it all, get out, we don't need you in the flight deck.
Please remember this after you hit 400 hours.
Keep up the good work and the good attitude! Have fun flying and sharing your experience.
I’ve been in the aviation industry for decades and a commercial pilot for 22 years.
My experience tells me that these men will not repeat their mistakes.
7:30 Indeed. One of the passenger on Aloha Airlines Flight 243 noticed cracks in the plane and was concerned but assumed they knew about the cracks. They did not.
If you say something about a concern you have say something. At worst they will just say, "Yea, we know. It'll be fine." But in case they might say, "Crap, we can't fly like that." then saying something will save lives.
Or maybe that one passenger who noticed the cracks in the airplane didn't say anything because they were one of those people who are too polite to make a fuss.
Sad to think nowadays saying something about a crack might get you on a no-fly list. The last time I actually looked around & checked where the emergency exits were the guy next to me gave me a dirty look. He was wearing sandals & dressed in synthetics, I was not. Pretty sad.
@@dicksonfranssen You were naked? I didn't know they would let you on the plane if you are not dressed,
@@dicksonfranssen Nah, you've got it all wrong dickie-boy. What's pretty sad is those tryhard wannabe's who get on a commercial flight, berate the other passengers for not having a notebook and pencil to to survive the four year wait for CSAR to show up when the three hour overland flight crashes within walking distance of a major population centre, and start giving it billy big bollocks about how they came prepared to HALO straight out the window if a wheel falls off the drinks trolley. Now _that_ is sad. Cringeworthy. Pathetic even.
You know anyone like that dickie?
I’m always shocked by the fact that so many people overlook the basics.
The Swiss cheese model here was all hole, no cheese.
These helicopter pilots really have to take collective responsibility.
Badum-pah-tish. Also, somewhat tasteless.
I see what you did there. That's a pilot-dad joke. Well done
@@danepatterson8107Cool name 😉
@@owensparks5013what, too soon?
@@owensparks5013 Also a true statement.
As a pilot, I usually like to watch these to avoid mistakes and be a safer pilot, but this flight had so much going wrong it’s hard to pick the worst thing done to create the crash. It’s more of a wonder how they made it as far as they did!
Makes you wonder just how MANY pilots out there are behaving this way and getting away with it. Likely thousands. As Hoover said they get away with it once, then twice, then the 100th time and then one day get bitten. No matter how close you are to a pilot buddy - if they exhibit any of these characteristics do not get in that airplane .
Yep,new a buddy who overloaded his plane; and I told him I wasn't getting in.stayed on the ramp,while left reno...he told me later that he had to fly to oak..with the yoke all the way forward and made adjustments with the throttls!!! We never flew together again!!
@@mikearakelian6368 Utter madness. Glad you let that friend go. You know what they say: keep knocking on the Devil's door and one day he will answer.
I joined a flying club and the people in the group who have assumed the role of “maintaining” the airplane have exhibited this kind of behavior. They work with an inexperienced A&P and he signs off their work to “save money.” Recently, one of them experienced an engine out in the airplane because they didn’t realize the airplane had vented fuel caps. They’ve also mentioned to me that they’re building an airplane and bragged about taking several shortcuts to save money, one of which is using a converted Subaru engine from a company that has already been responsible for at least one accident. Yeah… I’m selling my share and getting as far away from them as possible.
Normalisation of deviance has killed many a pilots
I love how this channel goes through accidents involving smaller aircraft... As someone who's interested in learning to fly, these are the stories that I can relate to, as opposed to the larger commercial accidents that channels such as Mentour Pilot goes over.
I'm never going to become a professional pilot, but I could see myself getting my private pilot's licence and these are just the types of tales I want drilled into me.
I am a trainee pilot and always enjoy your very educational vídeos. I am learning a lot and would like to thank you for your time and dedication to enlighten other airmen. All the best mate.
Great to hear!
I once had to cancel a Cessna 172 flight because friends invited other overweight friends and it would have put us overweight and in the high density altitude out of Chandler Arizona. I lost friends that day and so the peer pressure is real. To cancel a flight when you've got three friends who are expecting to go on a trip, it's hard, but we're all still alive even though we aren't friends anymore, I've made into my late 60s. 😀
I do training in another field but I have never seen the 5 hazardous attitudes before. It is so relevant to underground mining. I am new to accident investigation and watch your videos because I always seem to learn something from every video. Thank you.
www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?cID=723&sID=1450&preview=true#:~:text=Hazardous%20Attitudes,-Hazardous%20attitudes%20are&text=Anti%2Dauthority%3A%20Those%20who%20do,are%20better%20than%20anyone%20else.
I am here because I was friends with Chris and wanted to know about the accident. The story in the paper was very different and you have cleared things up.
I can't make my head around this kind of accidents. They seem so easy to avoid.
Me neither. It´s like getting into a car, blindfold yourself and put on the throttle and see what happens.
The rate at which "Tried & failed to outclimb the terrain" accidents keep happening shows that, collectively, we're doing a seriously inadequate job of distributing mountain-flying knowledge.
Thanks for helping to address this problem.
Another very useful video, thanks. The hazardous attitudes and the normalisation of deviance you point out are extremely relevant and your videos are making a great contribution to my son’s flying training. I’ve spent the morning in the simulator here in the UK conducting a recurrent check on a 777 crew and the first thing I did when I got in is check your channel to see the upload, so thanks for delivering. A couple of minor points - my understanding is that a wing actually generates a lot of lift when approaching the critical AoA ie when the stall warner is sounding, the problem is there’s an awful lot of drag also…and Vy is best rate of climb, not best angle of climb. I remember that because an old instructor told me that the X in Vx looks like a gate and if you’re trying to fly over the gate at the end of the field, it’s best angle you’re going to need…keep up the great work
A very similar accident happened at Wanaka here in New Zealand - four commercial pilots died trying to fly up a valley ... with overcast clouds - you would have thought one of them would have said STOP.
I work at an FBO. One morning , a Cessna 414 landed and taxied to our ramp for fuel. In the meantime, it started raining and sleeting. Heavy ice started accumulating all over the airplane. After being fueled, the two pilots were getting ready to board the aircraft to fly but I urged them to let me put the aircraft in a heated hangar to melt the ice. They agreed and it was good to know that hopefully, they made it safely to their destination.
I was told once by a flight instructor: "The plane flies better over gross than out of gas"... Needless to say I never would fly with him.
He is correct.
@@flycatchfulFor me he is 100% wrong. A plane in the air will certainly fly with no gas. It’s just a matter of how long before it stops flying…stall / crash or emergency landing. OTOH, a plane over gross will not fly better because I’m never taking it into the air in the first place.
@@flycatchful Technically, it depends... Is he on the runway and out of gas? Is he full tanked but over weight by an absurd amount? The reason you don't fly with someone who says that should be obvious: they are rationalizing personally-invented heuristics to justify the fact that they are comfortable with unsafe practices (in two ways at least!): Gross weight and fuel are both limits that drastically increase danger. When someone tells you who they are, believe them!
@@flycatchful Technically correct but the subtext of that statement is a hazardous attitude all by itself. I wouldn't fly with this person, either.
@@flycatchful CFI isn't technically wrong, but he is NOT correct.
They called that the day the helicopters died. Can you imagine losing 4 of your best pilots on one crash like that. It must have been really tough for the tour company. Helicopters are not easy to fly. The swiss cheese monster came out again. Tragic. 😪
Love your videos Hoover! Between you and Blancolirio, I learn tons.
Such a sad story.. I really appreciate your integration of the critical attitude & behavior factors into your analysis of the event.. We need to be incessantly reminded of the danger of falling into those traps…
I look for your uploads every Sunday. Thanks Hoover. :)
Same
Thank you for this debrief. Thanks for being respectful breaking down this accident. Todd was in my commercial ground school (rotorcraft). Great guy who served in the Marine's. I found out about this accident from Todd's parents. They sent me an email. Totally broke my heart. Fly safe everybody!
I was doing a flight with a friend, he was the PIC and he said he was bringing a friend and I told me too so it was four in total. The aircraft was a DA 40. So I told him at longest we do a weight & balance we should be fine but on the day of the flight he didn’t do weight & balance and he said I thought that I did it for him. He was so ready to go, doors close and my instincts kicked it and I told we need do to a weight & balance and not go by on each person weight to adjust it on who weight less or more. Lucky one of the passengers decided he didn’t wanna go and that really saves us because we were 225 overweight. Overall I wasn’t going to takeoff either way without a weight & balance. Hope this story will find useful to other pilots to be vigilant on weight & balance.
Excellent evaluation but so sad this happened.
I'm guessing the helicopter company is hiring?
😂 😮
This happened in May 2012...
I needed that 😅
😂
Every fact you presented made this mishap so incredible
I think even with a sr22, these guys were kill themselves. I cant believe someone flying 3 minutes with a stall warning
Without increasing power, no less!
Thank you for the topic emphasis here.
You call it "attitude". I call it personality. I choose my word because my experience is that the behavior is more "baked in". The person is blind to it.
The more of your debriefs I watch, the more my mental tally rises where personality is a culprit.
Your personality is so even keel, I fear viewers miss the nuance when you state that rules "are written in blood". But better you model the sober mindset a pilot should possess than introduce unnecessary drama.
Really good work. I hope this channel reaches folks who need to have their flawed attitudes exposed.
Cirrus has a specific training guide, CAPS was a huge part of that. One of the first things I did was get CAPS certified, also during preflight briefing you are to educate everyone on board about this system and brief them on how it works. Even if the pilot becomes incapacitated, POH states for the passenger to pull caps, reduce power to idle, cut mixture and power off. I feel if proper preflight was done, SOMEONE would have grabbed that red handle in panic and at least would have gave them a chance. My instructor told me if you have any question about staying airborne, you pull that damn handle. Insurance is there for a reason.
Unfortunately, the Cirrus specialized training program/course stuff came a year or two after this tragedy
@@pilot-debrief Ahhhhhhhh I never took that into consideration, good call. Well damn.
You by far the most credible and authentic authority on YT.
Good Day, Hoover.
Hello there!
Thank you Hoover for this debrief. Valuable lessons especially for those who are flying now. After losing 3 fellow pilots in 2 separate accidents, it's traumatic & stressful. Hopefully more lives can be saved with these videos. Thank you. 👍
Why would he risk his own life over his arrogance? Such a useless tragedy.
Thanks for another great video and Analysis. I found that as a private pilot, It is extremely important to know the plane's and your own limitations. Also, it feels like even if they had not crashed this time, it would eventually have happend.
Hoover, mate, have you done a "How I got my callsign" video? 😂
Got me thinking either you really messed up an exercise or you eat really fast?
He did a live stream not long ago and told how he ended up getting that callsign. 😂😂 I wondered the same before he spoke on it
Experience breeds as much complacency as it does competence
5 HAZARDOUS ATTITUDES=MAVERICK. :)
This case is really tragical because it shows in the most dratical way how deadly the combination overconfidence in combination with lack of experice with the flown aircraft is. It is sad that this tragedy - like so many others analyzed in your pilot debriefs, could have been avoided easyly if one of the involved experienced helicopter pilots would have reacted on at least one of the mentioned mistakes. Thank you for another great debrief.
Lmao I found Steve-O's long lost twin brother
The vibration of general aviation engines can absolutely move the throttle of certain aircraft without any pilot intervention... many aircraft have a lock to try and prevent that from happening.
Happened to me on one of my very first flights.
I had a friend in the early 80’s, new pilot with around 200hrs. Flying his wife and 3 young children from Trail BC to Calgary….through two mountain ranges.
Got boxed in, tried the infamous turn and tried to put it down on a forestry road.
Almost made it. Wing clipped a tree, spinning and abruptly stopped.
Him and his wife both died, their 2yr old in the back seat slipped out of her seatbelt and hit the instrument panel also died. Their two sons also in the back survived with minor injuries.
Mom and dad were not wearing their shoulder harness and only used the lap belt. The impact kept them in their seat but they were flung forward both breaking their necks on the instrument panel.
The plane only had a 12”dia dent on the wing and the engine was fully operational and run during the TSB investigation.
This was, as many others, totally avoidable and survivable had the been wearing the full harnesses.
At the time, it was common knowledge that new pilots with @200hrs are at the critical point of their flying abilities as their confidence grows faster than their awareness of their surroundings.
I remember this like it was yesterday😢
Well done debrief, as usual!
We ALL carry at least one of the Hazardous Attitudes to varying degree. Being *aware* of which HA (or which combination of HAs) one carries - the potential blind spot one has - allows for correction for this attitude. Each HA has a correction - and just being cognizant of one’s own tendency towards a HA, and awareness of the corrective step, gives a person the ability to compensate for their own HA.
I had a mountain checkout in a C182 a few decades ago. We flew to Leadville and back from Erie Tri County (now Erie Municipal. The Convair Restaurant is gone now but they put the fuselage of a Convair on top of a building. It was a good restaurant ). We flew up the I70 corridor (aka canyon). The CFI told me that if I saw terrain rising ahead of me I was too low. As we neared the tunnel the terrain was definitely rising above me. The new CFI in the back seat (tagging along for the experience) echo'd my concern when I pointed it out to the CFI. I didn't think there was room to turn around and he had us traveling down the middle of the canyon vs hugging the wall in preparation to turn around, which was where my mind had gone. When we pointed the problem out the CFI said we were fine and about 5 minutes later he had me make a left turn into another canyon. We made it to Leadville, stopped to stretch our legs, and get the "certificate" for landing at the highest elevation airport in the US, etc. I preflighted again, asked if we needed to top off with fuel, he said nope, and not long after that I knew why. DA was high. It wasn't hot otherwise it would have been impossibly high. The takeoff roll was long. Climb rate was dismal. If we had added fuel (one of the intended lessons) we would have had to reject the takeoff. We circled in the pattern until we got enough altitude to head back the way we had come. There were many other lessons learned on that trip. One of them was the 45 degree entry to high terrain that you mentioned. He was young instructor but a really, really good instructor. When we got back to Erie he asked me what my takeaway was from the mountain checkout. (1) I really liked the C182 vs the C172's that I had been flying. (2) Don't fly in the mountains. It was fun. The scenery is fantastic. The experience was valuable. The risks outweigh the reward. It's not a casual thing to fly in the mountains.
More recently I flew out of KFMN for 5 years. A lot of that time was in a C172B. DA gets a lot of pilots up there. Like me, they come from flat land near sea level and they don't respect DA. When I transitioned to a C172RG later I could fly it more but it weighs 1,000 # more than the C172B I was flying. Raising the gear offset that some. The constant speed prop was helpful. But... some days are just best spent on the ground.
Wow, such a loss over being quiet. Thank you for the review, so much to learn.
12:00 sadly, given what you laid out for us, Chris may have lived only to crash again. It's likely his attitude towards fixed-wing flying would not have shifted past 2,300 RPM.
09:45 you are correct. Even the Robinson has a governor. The only 2 helicopters I know off the top of my head without a governor are the Bell 47 and the Schweizer 300. These are old designs. I’m sure there’s others, but the main point is that virtually all modern helicopters have governors to control the throttle.
Also, the rotor RPM doesn’t need to be “set.” It operates at a constant rate at all times. There is no situation where you would change the rotor RPM.
Don't forget Enstrom
What if the governor starts to malfunction mid-flight? Would you then be able to control the throttle manually? Is there some way to practice it for emergency situations? Or would it be easy to control manually if you had never done it before?
I played a lot of WW2 aviation games. What I realized is that those old WW2 planes were much larger and much more powerful than I ever knew.
Didn't really think about it because they were only seating one pilot, or two.
But then you compare it to a more modern aircraft and realize that a WW2 Spitfire was pretty much double the performance of a Cessna 172.
What game? :)
Way more than double the performance of a 172. I’ve flown both in real life, a Merlin engine gives over 1000hp - more when flown in wartime combat
Great info and thank you.
Pilot flies drunk, still has pilots license. I feel like the failure in this scenario is not the pilot, but the system. FAA should never have allowed this person to have a license again. Driving drunk is one thing and bad enough, but flying... nope, just hell nope. Man has no regard for life and safety in general and that is proven and practiced in his actions.
Not having a license does not deter a lot of people from flying, as long as they have access to an airplane. I went to work at an FBO as a line boy in 1977, and I saw a lot of sketchy stuff. Luckily for me, I guess, these things helped shape my attitude in a positive manner.
@@jgbonney yes, but he had a license. I would think not having a license would prevent an airport from allowing someone to depart period.
@@TheAncientOneYT You would think, but that’s not the case. I knew a guy who brokered antique and classic airplanes and was always taking prospective buyers out for demo flights. He had no pilot’s license.
@@jgbonney Yes I know, but my point is if accountability is held on a higher level, not just aimed at the pilot, then these things would happen far less often. FAA, Airport, etc.. should be held responsible for 1: allowing someone for total disregard of life to hold a license to begin with and 2: Any airport not doing their due diligence and checking pilots that fly out of their location. In this case, FAA should really be rethinking how they allow people to still have a pilot license. It is always "pilot at fault" when many cases, other people knew the negligence of the person flying the plane. Honestly, it is sad. It could have been prevented by simply revoking him to begin with and enforcing no license - no fly regulations. Yeah, there will still be a 1 off (such as the young man who was maint for an airline and stole a plane and crashed it) but there are always faults, but no excuse for not controlling what can be controlled..
@@TheAncientOneYT Dream on...Criminals should not have guns, yet thousands of shootings occur, dozens daily, with unlicensed people with unregistered guns. Furthermore, licensed pilots with valid medicals and current check rides, fly all the time, but are woefully incapable.
I love to watch your videos. Very informative and respectful. I'm not in the aviation field,but am in the heavy equipment field for 50+ years. Never thought of the holes lining up in the swiss cheese analogy,but instead used the line. We all take chances from time to time, and get away with it. But now and then, careless and unlucky align. Tragedy then happens.
Could you make a video about the 747 and il 76 mid air collision
Idk if it really fits your channel
Just subscribe. Enjoy your channel very much. Thank you for your service. Lv from Michigan. Peace 🕊️.
I am rather glad Hoover is really focusing on flying attitudes, mentalities if you will. On reflection of my humble bit of flying experience, I cannot say overall that I fit any of those descriptions, but I'm pretty sure I had my bad days and could have been anyone of them for that given moment; kind of scary thought.
We are all human, after all.
In my opinion- if you are a pilot and ‘having bad days’ you should surrender your license and get a psychologist.
No matter what’s going on around you if you don’t have the self discipline and maturity to check yourself and leave stuff ‘at the door’ I could argue operating an automobile is too much for you. So piloting an airplane is just plain off the list.
Then again, guys having bad days gives hoover something to debrief, unfortunately.
@@fishhuntadventure That's just silly. If that is the standard, then no one is qualified to fly, and I never said I was flying on those bad days. Because no one absolutely no one is above or beyond fallibility or always has the best attitude at all times. The point of my comment is that anyone is capable of falling into these mindsets and self examination and just being honest with yourself about your current mindset. But hey the opportunity of making a ridiculously harsh comment online is just something you couldn't resist, seems a bit impulsive.
It's unbelievable that such an experienced crew could get into this situation. Great video, Hoover !
7:26 - "don't assume that people know what their doing." Need to contact 100 senators, 435 representatives, and one president - today.
This channel will save lives. The stories are well presented and thorough. And Hoover reminds us of the importance of safety.
I’m not a pilot, but I watch many videos of airplane crashes. One of the common factors seems to be lack of throttle why are pilots so quick to pull back on the throttle? Is it to save fuel? I would think if the stall warning is sounding the first thing you should do is check the throttle and make sure it is fully engaged. The next thing I would do is check that the flaps are retracted and the landing gear is up. Is that correct? Like I said, I’ve never flown a plane in my life, but that seems like the logical steps to take.
Another excellent assessment sir. You’re just helping future and current pilots to understand that they’re not invulnerable because they have some flight experience. You have probably saved lives without knowing that you have.
Always happy to see a video from you. If I had to rate your content, I'd start with "fast, neat, and average". Keep it up!
Throttling-back has been historically related to a lot of incidents and accidents. I once listened to a group of pilots, which included the radio host, talking about flight accidents on an all-night broadcast. I remember it being said that a high percentage of pilots who survived crashes or forced landings stated that they had just throttled-back, sometime after take-off, when the motor cut-out or quit on them, or the plane dropped unexpectedly and put them into a dangerous situation.
Thank you for posting. It’s making me even more of a cautious pilot, i was cautious before, but now im extremely cautious. Thank you
Thanks for the excellent coverage of the various bad attitude problems, Hoover. Yes, the fuel control governor maintains rotor rpm until too much collective pitch with too little power causes rotor decay. There are some crop duster and mountain pilot defaults that could help with falling into one or two of these bad attitudes, but not all. Level in low ground effect until cruise airspeed and then cruise climb on takeoff, down drainage egress, use of orographic lift in the mountains, and when pulling doesn't cause any climb just push can fix some poor planning but not all.
Wow,was going to fast forward through this to find out the end results-but too much concise information kept me to the end,so kudos dude
Glad it was helpful!
With so much accumulated knowledge inside the cockpit, how could this have happened? Thanks Hoover for the debrief!
Again just makes me want to go "WHY" to those who make such tragic mistakes when they could have been prevented, thank you Hoover for this debrief.
Love your videos. Not a pilot just a flight sim enthusiast but your videos are so in depth and eye opening it blows my mind how some people take enormous risks.
Thanks Hoover, another superb analysis. It always astonishes me that some experienced flying people are so casual about flying themselves!
Sounds more like 4 people in a flying circus. It's insane to think that a pilot making a climb forgets to advance the throttle. The Tachometer, ASI and VSI as well as listening to the engine note, was the give away.