Climbing is a different skill than riding flats. On the flat you can ride at whatever pace you want. You’ll probably coast here and there, speed up, slow down for a snack etc. On a climb however you don’t have this luxury. What makes climbing hard is there is no time for recovery as you have to push consistent power with no power dips for extended periods of time. People who just ride flats have no idea how many micro breaks they take throughout their ride until they have to climb a mountain. Putting out consistent watts with no dips is a skill that is deceloped like any other.
You just have to learn to manage your wattage whatever the terrain you're on. As Ethan says, climbing rides are not what causes directly the adaptation nor does it improve w/kg. Climbing can be a strategy, but so does an inside trainer if you want absolute consistency. The body doesn't know if you're climbing. It only knows that you're asking it to react to a load. Pick your poison.
As it is often the case in cycling training, it depends. A watt is a watt, but at slower speeds and with the bike tilted backwards a few percentage points because of the gradient, the way your leg muscles fire in sequence is not the same on climbs vs. on the flat. Cycling up an incline requires constant pressure on the pedal throughout the pedal stroke, while cycling on at speed on the flat can be achieved only through pushing hard at a top of the stroke and letting inertia do the rest. You are right in saying training higher power on the flat would work to have you climb faster, but it would probably feel very different holding a given power up a mountain road vs. on your local flat loop.
Z2 training is indeed optimal but beeing confortable in the mountains and leaning how to decent efficiently can only be done climbing mountains passes, and this makes loads of difference during a race.
I just realised that this year while trying to keep my Z2 targets. You need a bazillon zone 2 in your training and climbs are not great for that. Much easier to get Z2 right on flats. Some easy gravel does the trick too. You can throw some hill to do a bit of strength or out of the saddle training but keep an eye on that cardio. Also pedal fast in the descent to train cadence and you"ll keep that zone 2. Requires dedication obviously.
For people who's zone 2 is like 150w unless the mountain is 4% gradient then it probably is recommended to avoid climbs unless doing intensity work. For Tadej Pogacar with a 330w zone 2 he can ride 10% gradients chill. Short hills ruined my zone 2 training when I lived in a super hilly area. Every hill was 400m at 15% average which is almost impossible in zone 2 unless at 40rpm which means although you can do zone 2 it risks your knees with the torque.
Hi ! I understand your point of view, but i'm not quit sure that avoiding them will make you better. Don't you use different muscles when you climb ? I think that your pedaling technique is also different.For the decent part of the video, yeah you train less (or do not train at all if you refuse to pedal) but you need to be good at descending if you do not want to lose too much time in your race, so I think with all of that you need to train in the mountains if you want to be good in them.
@@EthanCourson what about the flats? Overall if you’re faster on the climbs cause of weight but slower on descents doesn’t it make no difference then in a race?
The highest mountain in Denmark is Møllehøj , 171 meters high, and the best climber in world is maybe the danish biker Jonas Vingegaard. That said, Jonas has been climbing a lot outside Denmark.
Your tag line is misleading. Climbing does make you faster and better at climbing. There is a place for steady-state HR training and that is made easier by riding flatter routes; however, you can't get good at climbing without climbing. If you want to get good at doing the thing, you have to do the thing whether that is on the road or simulated on the trainer...preferably on the road as there are many things that the trainer will not teach you or train you for. Climbing at different intensities is also important...which I think is more of what you are talking about. It's possible to climb in any HR zone you want as long as it's not to steep and you adjust your speed/effort appropriately.
Biking is like creating stress, same as say getting in cold water, now if you never get in cold water, then your body goes into shock, or stress, and you actually breath harder,,,now say after a month, of getting in cold water, you actually learn to relax, and get good at it:) same with hills:)
I believe best way to get good, really good, think of your bike ride, like making a salad, the more you put into one ride, the better, hills, sprints, slow, fast, down hills, up hills flats, straights, curves, up wind, down wind, lol you get the idea:)
@@erlendsteren9466 The power matters the most but not having lots of it. Training is training and that's one thing. The use of power is another. In regards to OP he is correct that you don't have to ride hills to be good at them. The best is following a structured plan that is polarized mostly zone 2 with various intervals and occasional combinations of fast hilly as well as fast flat group rides. But you never have to ride a single hill to be able to produce a lot of power, its the structured training that gets you there. With regards to gearing its all about your FTP and watts/kilo. You should choose gearing appropriate to your weight, power, endurance and how much you need to pack on your bike (not everyone is racing). If anything I personally use a gravel bike with rear MTB dertailluer that ends up with 48/31 and 11-42 gearing which makes super steep climbs a lot more palatable. 20% is not easy no matter what but can do way more without burning out using this setup.
here's a 'holistic' view: avoid hills (cause you're trying to manage your efforts) , stay a two dimensional cyclist who lacks fundamental and highly valuable skillsets.
While I would agree that taking it easy on the descents is like free miles without much benefit I have a much different philosophy. Rolling hills are my favorite because it is like an automatic built in HIIT workout. Crush the hill and recover on the flats or descents. Yes the watts per Kg is key for climbing however by doing more climbing you are going to add strength and thus increase significantly your (FTP) power output and max power. Doing climbs is very much like strength training. There is a guy I know who crushed the competition at Nationals a few years ago and so I looked at his Strava stats and the amount of elevation he did prior to the races was phenomenal - like 10 times what I had done up to that point. (50,000 feet versus 500,000 feet). I have been doing elevation like crazy ever since.
@@deDANIEL11609 Actually it did. I won the Florida Senior Games 40K road race last December going off the front on a hilly course and led all alone for 21 miles to the finish for the win. Beat some good riders that day!
his zone 2 is 330 watts so he needs climbs to train otherwise he is going too fast to keep constant pace on the flat. It's why some people train on gravel bikes on the road because they can hold a smoother pace.
Coming from an American who dont produce any world tour champions these days, and have with doping(Lance), this is why most of them move to Europe for the mountains and high altitude, lol
bro this is genuinely one of the worst takes ive ever heard lol. If u wanna become a better climber u gotta climb. end of story. u use different muscles on the flat versus when ur climbing. Even adam yates said it himself. why would pros be pulling back to back to back 5000m+ days in Sierra Nevada prior to the tour if ur take was true? If u wanna become better on the flats then u gotta climb and if u wanna become a better climber u gotta practice climbing whether its long climbs to altitudes or short punchy ones, show ur strengths and improve ur weaknesses! ur take about w/kg is true but that comes with training and a proper diet.
You dont even know the Giro which have the most brutal climbs of the big 3 GT. Why would I trust your BS? Getting fast in climbs and flats are inversely proportional. Been there, done that. Why? You use different muscle groups bec of different positions. The key here is training specificity.
This is just an opinion not actual research and I'm mainly focusing on why you shouldn't climb during an endurance ride not intervals.
IOW, just clickbait
Climbing is a different skill than riding flats. On the flat you can ride at whatever pace you want. You’ll probably coast here and there, speed up, slow down for a snack etc. On a climb however you don’t have this luxury. What makes climbing hard is there is no time for recovery as you have to push consistent power with no power dips for extended periods of time. People who just ride flats have no idea how many micro breaks they take throughout their ride until they have to climb a mountain. Putting out consistent watts with no dips is a skill that is deceloped like any other.
You just have to learn to manage your wattage whatever the terrain you're on. As Ethan says, climbing rides are not what causes directly the adaptation nor does it improve w/kg. Climbing can be a strategy, but so does an inside trainer if you want absolute consistency.
The body doesn't know if you're climbing. It only knows that you're asking it to react to a load. Pick your poison.
I think you just saved me 5:02 minutes😂
I hope my competition watches this video and follows it religiously.
As it is often the case in cycling training, it depends.
A watt is a watt, but at slower speeds and with the bike tilted backwards a few percentage points because of the gradient, the way your leg muscles fire in sequence is not the same on climbs vs. on the flat.
Cycling up an incline requires constant pressure on the pedal throughout the pedal stroke, while cycling on at speed on the flat can be achieved only through pushing hard at a top of the stroke and letting inertia do the rest.
You are right in saying training higher power on the flat would work to have you climb faster, but it would probably feel very different holding a given power up a mountain road vs. on your local flat loop.
Z2 training is indeed optimal but beeing confortable in the mountains and leaning how to decent efficiently can only be done climbing mountains passes, and this makes loads of difference during a race.
I just realised that this year while trying to keep my Z2 targets. You need a bazillon zone 2 in your training and climbs are not great for that. Much easier to get Z2 right on flats. Some easy gravel does the trick too. You can throw some hill to do a bit of strength or out of the saddle training but keep an eye on that cardio. Also pedal fast in the descent to train cadence and you"ll keep that zone 2. Requires dedication obviously.
Hills pay the bills.
How did i know this guy was from Florida!?
For people who's zone 2 is like 150w unless the mountain is 4% gradient then it probably is recommended to avoid climbs unless doing intensity work. For Tadej Pogacar with a 330w zone 2 he can ride 10% gradients chill. Short hills ruined my zone 2 training when I lived in a super hilly area. Every hill was 400m at 15% average which is almost impossible in zone 2 unless at 40rpm which means although you can do zone 2 it risks your knees with the torque.
Hi ! I understand your point of view, but i'm not quit sure that avoiding them will make you better. Don't you use different muscles when you climb ? I think that your pedaling technique is also different.For the decent part of the video, yeah you train less (or do not train at all if you refuse to pedal) but you need to be good at descending if you do not want to lose too much time in your race, so I think with all of that you need to train in the mountains if you want to be good in them.
You have a good point. Thanks for the feedback
Great vid
when you lose weight doesn't that slow you down on descents? Heavier riders usually bomb past me on descents
Yes, losing weight can slow you down on descents because a lighter weight means less gravitational pull and momentum.
@@EthanCourson what about the flats? Overall if you’re faster on the climbs cause of weight but slower on descents doesn’t it make no difference then in a race?
The advantage of less weight uphill is greater than the disadvantage downhill. This is why thin riders finish first on mountain sections.
@@randomhouse_11 AKA, you will never gain on the downhill what you lost on the uphill... goes for running, cycling, etc.
The highest mountain in Denmark is Møllehøj , 171 meters high, and the best climber in world is maybe the danish biker Jonas Vingegaard. That said, Jonas has been climbing a lot outside Denmark.
Your tag line is misleading. Climbing does make you faster and better at climbing. There is a place for steady-state HR training and that is made easier by riding flatter routes; however, you can't get good at climbing without climbing. If you want to get good at doing the thing, you have to do the thing whether that is on the road or simulated on the trainer...preferably on the road as there are many things that the trainer will not teach you or train you for. Climbing at different intensities is also important...which I think is more of what you are talking about. It's possible to climb in any HR zone you want as long as it's not to steep and you adjust your speed/effort appropriately.
You have a point there
Gotta have the patience to ride slowly, which is often harder to do than riding hard. 🚴⚡🔥🌀
Biking is like creating stress, same as say getting in cold water, now if you never get in cold water, then your body goes into shock, or stress, and you actually breath harder,,,now say after a month, of getting in cold water, you actually learn to relax, and get good at it:) same with hills:)
It is absolutely possible to do z2 on a climb. High z2(fatmax)
For people with a low FTP I would say this is generally true.
Ahh, over geared up the climb? Mate, drop the 56 tooth back to a compact
I believe best way to get good, really good, think of your bike ride, like making a salad, the more you put into one ride, the better, hills, sprints, slow, fast, down hills, up hills flats, straights, curves, up wind, down wind, lol you get the idea:)
If you follow a structured plan the route doesn't matter, only the power.
But if the bikes have to heavy gearing, the power skyrockets when it gets steep.
@@erlendsteren9466 The power matters the most but not having lots of it.
Training is training and that's one thing. The use of power is another.
In regards to OP he is correct that you don't have to ride hills to be good at them. The best is following a structured plan that is polarized mostly zone 2 with various intervals and occasional combinations of fast hilly as well as fast flat group rides. But you never have to ride a single hill to be able to produce a lot of power, its the structured training that gets you there.
With regards to gearing its all about your FTP and watts/kilo. You should choose gearing appropriate to your weight, power, endurance and how much you need to pack on your bike (not everyone is racing).
If anything I personally use a gravel bike with rear MTB dertailluer that ends up with 48/31 and 11-42 gearing which makes super steep climbs a lot more palatable. 20% is not easy no matter what but can do way more without burning out using this setup.
How are you going to compete in a hilly race if you don't work the downhills?
👍
here's a 'holistic' view: avoid hills (cause you're trying to manage your efforts) , stay a two dimensional cyclist who lacks fundamental and highly valuable skillsets.
While I would agree that taking it easy on the descents is like free miles without much benefit I have a much different philosophy. Rolling hills are my favorite because it is like an automatic built in HIIT workout. Crush the hill and recover on the flats or descents. Yes the watts per Kg is key for climbing however by doing more climbing you are going to add strength and thus increase significantly your (FTP) power output and max power. Doing climbs is very much like strength training. There is a guy I know who crushed the competition at Nationals a few years ago and so I looked at his Strava stats and the amount of elevation he did prior to the races was phenomenal - like 10 times what I had done up to that point. (50,000 feet versus 500,000 feet). I have been doing elevation like crazy ever since.
Did it help you with racing?
@@deDANIEL11609 Actually it did. I won the Florida Senior Games 40K road race last December going off the front on a hilly course and led all alone for 21 miles to the finish for the win. Beat some good riders that day!
@@markmark2469 crazy
2:51 lol😂
So Pogacar didn't outclimb everybody and smash the record up Isola 2000 because he spent a month riding up it every day? What was it then?
his zone 2 is 330 watts so he needs climbs to train otherwise he is going too fast to keep constant pace on the flat. It's why some people train on gravel bikes on the road because they can hold a smoother pace.
He climbs faster than Armstrong. What could be the reason?
Coming from an American who dont produce any world tour champions these days, and have with doping(Lance), this is why most of them move to Europe for the mountains and high altitude, lol
bro this is genuinely one of the worst takes ive ever heard lol. If u wanna become a better climber u gotta climb. end of story. u use different muscles on the flat versus when ur climbing. Even adam yates said it himself. why would pros be pulling back to back to back 5000m+ days in Sierra Nevada prior to the tour if ur take was true? If u wanna become better on the flats then u gotta climb and if u wanna become a better climber u gotta practice climbing whether its long climbs to altitudes or short punchy ones, show ur strengths and improve ur weaknesses! ur take about w/kg is true but that comes with training and a proper diet.
thanks for the feedback. Like actually it helps me improve
Hmmm, I feel you get good at what you do every day:)
There is so much Nonsense on You Tube and this is one of them...just ride you bike and enjoy it
Next shouldn’t practice going down mountains.
lol😂
Bro u are clueless
Spoken like a true flat lander
Never climbing a mountain ever again!
dont listen to his bullshit advice
I hate climbing mountains! LoL
😂😂😂😂😂😂 nice try!
Are u from Florida?😅🤣😂
That;s absolute hogwash.
You dont even know the Giro which have the most brutal climbs of the big 3 GT. Why would I trust your BS? Getting fast in climbs and flats are inversely proportional. Been there, done that. Why? You use different muscle groups bec of different positions. The key here is training specificity.
I was simply giving an example by naming some grand tours
yeah his video is correct…..
Cool Video