Steam Bending 1 1/2" Kiln Dried Ash, 7.5" Radius, for a Stevens-Duyrea Car Top
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- Опубликовано: 19 июн 2024
- Early 1900 autos had tops very similar to traditional carriages, and buggies and I am often asked to custom steam bend top bows for them. The Wyman Museum in Elk Springs, CO has a Stevens-Duyrea car that needs new bent top bows. These are 1.5" thick and wide, and are 66" wide, and require 12' white ash in length. This is a difficult bend and I will show some of the difficulties in making these types of bends using kiln dried ash.
Now that's a steep learning curve. The music seemed appropriate as well. 🤣😂😁😀😎. Once again nice job.
Another good Saturday show.
Craftsmanship, experience, reflection, material science and the patience’s of Job.
That first bend was difficult to watch, that flaw showed up early and my inclination would have been to stop and throw it out. Yet when you explained learning from that failure it made perfect sense.
شكرا على جهودك الراءعه ومعلوماتك القيمه انت دقيق جدا في عملك ياليت كل الحرفيون يحذو حذوك
Just tripped over this channel... wow, so much craftsmanship being preserved. Our ancestors were amazingly creative -- remember all this stuff was invented long before industrial equipment!
Hey, did you know the late Jim Gussler from Ranchester?
And howdy from Billings :)
This show is so addictive & informative I've learnt a lot from watching Mr Engels at work, there is no doubt that he is highly skilled in what he does 👍
Another great video! Thank you Dave!
I am so glad I found this channel... I really enjoy being amazed and inspired.... Thank you.
I'll probably never need to do this ,I'll most likely never try to do this , but by god it's interesting to watch 🇬🇧
Very nice video like the way you steam bend
The patience and experience of a craftsman to get things right. Thanks for showing us that sometimes you have to just grin and bear it to keep going even when things don’t work out.
I appreciate your philosophy of learning from your mistakes. You have to have made few to really appreciate that lesson.
A fascinating peek at yesteryear yet again, thanks Dave.
Great video once again, thanks for your honesty. So many content providers would have gone straight to the last board and skipped the test ones.
I’m a machinist and in sheet metal bending or any other metal you have stretch on the outside of the bend and compression on the inside. Somewhere about in the middle you have what engineers call the neutral axis where the material does not bend or compress. This is just food for thought but I would think that wood could handle some amount of stretch. Looks like your setup captures the length of the piece to keep any stretch from happening. Perhaps there is a sweet spot in letting just a bit of stretch so it’s not all compression. Maybe also some hot steamy rags on the bend part of the board while you get the clamping done so no cooling occurs in the compression area. Love the setup, very practice.
Thanks again for "coaching" us in the art of steam bending. I find your shares very informative!
In my experience, you can do everything just about right, but wood is a natural material and will do what it will whether you like it or not, great video, such a privilege to watch a craftsman at work.
Great video antique car and Dave fixing them too!
I'm always getting educated here...
Bravo Mr. Dave...
Dave, another outstanding lesson in wood bending and doing it correctly not just "making it work" I sure hope the customer appreciates all the work you put into those bows.
You OLD man are a JOY to watch.
@@EngelsCoachShop nah!! OLDER
Thanks for showing the way you bend wood regards John
From borax wagons and buggy wheels to wooden hardware for antique car tops, we're slowly watching you march your way through the progression of transportation technology of the last 200 years with your videos! When Stevens-Duyrea was making these bows back in the early 1900's by the hundreds, do you think they had a high rejection rate too? Thanks again Mr Engels!
Very interesting Dave, I especially appreciate your showing the failed attempts as well as the perfect ones. Thanks again for sharing these!
it's all about working learnig and PASSION .All that you are thank you SIR !!!
I learn something new with each video and that there is always more to the story
I've had some gluing complications. Multiple clamps and special shims for applying pressure at all odd angles is a challenging but strangely satisfying task.
Hi:
I know what you are talking about when you said that part of the board was harden. I have run into that problem several times with some Quarter Sawn White Oak. One time I had to send back to the supplier a little over 125 board feet of 4/4 material and the supplier replaced it. The supplier said that were having with the steam and heat on some. The new wood was fine. At the price of material you have to watch this problem. I also think it makes Quarter Sawn material hot stay straight when you are ripping it.
Thank you again for sharing you are a great teacher.
Well there is certainly an "Art" too steam bending wood. It's entertaining too see the "impurities " or imperfections in the wood that you wouldn't normally see otherwise. Once again Mr Engels thank you for sending the video. Always look forward to seeing the next process in building techniques. Keep up the good work. 👍👍
I know I have said it before but it is a pleasure to watch you work. You are not afraid to tackle as many times it takes to get it right. Your video quality is awesome. Thanks for Sharing Sir
sir you do some beautiful work
Another great video Mr. Engles.
I know that Ash will bend consistently in a tight radius like you are using in stock 1-1/12” thick. We did it in the boatyard I worked at in Florida. The trick is to get “air dried” stock. The process of kiln drying case hardens the lumber causing the hard spots we saw in the first bend. The bows you were working with looked very old and were probably made before kiln drying. If you can find the stock, give it a try, it will save you a lot of time and material.
Hi Dave, great information on steam bending. Trial and error is how I have learned many fabrication techniques. I wat taught that wood was once a living thing and will always have many different characteristics. "Thanks for listening" to our comments.
Looking good, I wish they had better plans for you. I’ll bet you make it work for them though. Thanks for sharing with us.
Dave, started watching your channel when you were building the Borax wagons. Have missed a video since. I find each one fascinating and consider them a learning experience. Keep up the great videos.
Me too very good information in each video and the quality of craftsmanship is top notch.
always wondered about those marks on bows now I know Master thank you for teaching me.
Excellent the best l've seen explanation of steam bending👏👏👏
That sort of job is always gona throw up some kinks along the way, and you showed and explained the ho and the how, and the learn from it approach. A pleasure to watch, as always.👍👍👍👍
In my experiences one do-over was my limit. A new motto: the 4th time will be perfect, Thanks
Even though modern engineering uses metal......shrinking and stretching still come into play. Dave has to do both metal and wood and sort out the problems with each material. Good show here Dave! I'm learning something even if I never build a horse drawn vehicle.
Great to see the troubleshooting process. Your other bending videos made it look too easy!
David, you REALLY do go the extra mile(s.)
Great job. It seems I could watch you work all
day. But, I've finally found a KILLER job, cleaning
and refurbishing woodworking equipment. If
you ever want a Byrd head for that 20 inch Grizzly
planer, I now know how to replace them. Just did
the Yellow (Powermatic) version. My brother has
the same Green planer you do, and he wanted me
to see how difficult the switchover is. (I think the
Green one is the most popular planer on the Tube.
steve
On the closeups of the original bows, it looks like material had been carved out of the inside radius, making compression much less of a issue there. I wouldn't be surprised of the original makers carved much of that compression material out first, then bent the bows afterwards.
The bending jig would probably be a bit more elaborate to support the inside radius, but it would have given much more consistent results, necessary for production. Likely, a static tabletop jig that the workers quickly inserted the freshly soaked/steamed piece into, along with a supporting backstrap, then bent it around the jig, and left it to dry.
Also, for production, it would have been much faster to pre-carve or plane the inside radius on a straight board, rather than a curved one. As an experimental airplane builder, I know that's what was done by many of the wood aircraft manufacturers of the time, and likely the production techniques would have been copied.
That heavy frame with the red wheels in the background looks like a real interesting project.
Getting close to 70,000 subs good for you. You have very good channel with a lot of good information along with an eye for details.
To bad you got a bad board but, you still used it for practice.
As i have said before thank you for letting us watch you work even the bad parts.
@@EngelsCoachShop But so many RUclips "experts" skip that to look good. Thank you for letting us learn from those moments as well.
One clue might be that your steam box may be cooler near its door than the other end since its problem seemed to have occurred more at that location unless the stock was flipped end to end while heating. Checking with a laser infra thermometer gun when the stock comes out might reveal if its occurring or even on the box itself as most only have steam coming in at one point instead of its entire length. What a stock can or won't do is often only revealed when it's being drawn into the shape and steaming a piece is more a matter of experience and an art form of sorts than just repetition.
I have done a little wood bending in the past and also talked to a craftsman in the Amana colonies many years ago that was doing some interesting steam bending. I found out from him (he was bending black walnut for chair arms) that a little fabric softener in the water used for steam helped soften the fibers and make them more pliable. I tried it on some much smaller cross section of white oak than you are using, but it did seem to help the bending. Good luck on the next couple of bows. Can't wait for next weeks video.
Those two monster wheels (maybe 6 foot tall) in the background also look like an interesting project.
Jim Crisafulli
Dave, You are my favorite pass time. I so enjoy watching you do what you do. I think your an amazing craftsman with the patience of Jobe. I see you use Makita tools. I have a corded Makita drill that needs a new home. I have had it for about 40 years. If you think you can use it I will send it along. Let me know.
Nearly missed this episode, that would've been a shame, because it was a treat to watch. :D
Thanks for sharing and take care. 👍
Thanks Dave for including the problems and the thought process in finding the solution to correct it .There is no substitute for years of experience .
As always enjoyed your content.
Good morning dear sir as you will know not all the donuts succeed with the hole to the first attempts. But with his experience and patience he will find the right path. Greetings from Sicily
looking good so far Dave. I think I can make sense why that last(4th) bend worked better. I'm used to bending metals but it's pretty much the same. In fact I used to do analysis in the lab on different areas of the bend. There are 3 planes within a bend. The outer radius which is under tension (wants to stretch), the inner radius is under compression, and the center is the neutral plane. Of course the thicker the material, the more extreme these areas act. So in the 4th bend you left the bottom form clamps off until the wood was pulled and :stretched around the form most of the way and then you applied the clamps . I can appreciate how you learned from each go at it, but you even anticipated that you would need a few tries to figure it all out. I like the way you think! Thanks for sharing.
I am number 35 this week. Good stuff.
Given the price of Ash lumber today, I'm glad the second board worked out for you.
Thanks again Dave
I bow to your Bow bending patience.
Hi Dave nice vlog and bending technique some pre dried timber is sometime over dried ,along it not bend as easily on the grains ( we bent timber for tug boats ) it is very frustrating when grain folds but loved the end result 😀👍👍
The other bows I have seen you form were more of a continuous bend therefore a much larger radius.
i know a cart from a horse that's about all know about what you do but i know a great trades man when i see one.
Hi Dave-
Is steam bending ash rate sensitive at all? In other words, does it help to bend a little more slowly in tight corners? Thanks for another great video!
Based on pictures of the car, my guess is that the bows were not particularly critical as to size of lumber or exact dimensions. While I applaud Dave for his expertise in faithfully recreating the exact bends and twists, since the roof is fabric covered, only a purist would notice the differences, and even then, probably would not. My guess is the original manufacturer bows were not all 100% identical between cars. Again, I applaud Dave for his efforts! What an insight into the history of manufacturing automobiles!
Well winter ic coming, least you'll use the lumber to keep warm!
Here is a very good example of why to avoid kiln dried lumber for steam bending. I'm wondering if improper use of stickers during the kiln process the wood caused the 'work hardened' spot. In any case, for hardwoods I seek to avoid kiln dried as much as possible.
How much setup time do u have before the wood is to cold to bend properly Mr. Dave.???
My 1936 pickup has wood pillars as support for the doors and windshield and they very hard to replace because each car and truck is hand made at the factory. One of the members of the 1936ChevyOwners web site used tube steel to replace the structural wood. Tube steel can be bent just like wood.
"Case Hardening" IIRC is the term for that particular kiln drying defect. It comes from green lumber being placed in a hot kiln, or too much heat being applied too quick during the kiln cycle. The outer fiber bands of a plank dry and shrink first,before those in the center. As a result the outer bands contract and stretch to conform to the inner wetter bands. Then once the inner bands dry, they tend to pull away from the outer bands and form voids . I had a whole bunk of Red oak where that had occurred once, sadly it's pretty much firewood at that point.
It seems like it was circa the early 1980s that kiln drying was vastly sped up (higher pressure/less time) from prior to that time. This has resulted in less usable lumber as you unfortunately found.
Would it help to saw some shallow notches in the inside radius?
I really do appreciate your skill and dedication
Great video, I like to see your failures. It helps me realize that it could happen to anyone.
Mr. Engles. Does the speed of the bending process effect the board folding? I understand that the board must be bent while still hot, but might a slower bend result it a more even wood folding in the board?
.....shipwright stuff now Mr Engels, days gone by I worked steaming timbers for wooden trawlers and at times put the timbers in the water for a 2/3 days to make them waterlogged, also found freshly cut timber known as green timber was also easier to steam and work with........ ............................
Thank you again.
Could the friction between the wood and the former be contributing to the isolated folds on the compression side? If the interface was more slippery, would that lead to more uniform shrinkage?
Have you try to play with the thickness off the wood in the bending's areas to allow an easier compresion?
Thanks for sharing!!
Cheers from France!
how do you charge the client for them .since you had to do the one bow 4 times do you charge him for that
Interesting it’s always the right side that didn’t compress evenly or has a hard spot. Maybe something with the oven. Looks like it will work.
Rc
As Dave mentioned he was thinking it was one spot along the board that he cut the strips from so unless he rotated the strip end for end then the bad spot would continue to be on the right side.
Interesting "tree" or kiln process. Would it make a slight positive approach to have a moisture barrier between the subject wood and the form in hopes any moisture "leaks" stay with the subject wood? I have to side with you on the term bending apparatus !
Thanks.
Mr. Dave, did you leave the # 4 bend in the steam box a little longer this time then the others.
Interesting Dave. Thanks for showing us the rejects as well, it's a good learning experience. I was wondering, how do you determine the soak time in the steamer? I would imagine it depends on type of wood and thickness? However, I was wondering since the ash is kiln dried if that added to it?
On one of those bends the inside sandwich boards just cleared the form. Was that by guess and by golly, or did you actually measure where they would wind up?
I don't know if you've seen Tips From a Shipwright's videos on bending boards in a plastic bag right where it's bent. Seems handy, and might help with the folding problems.
I am mesmerized watching the Handiwork take shape! Thanks, Mr. Dave!! Someday we'll see sled runners take shape, no doubt! :-)
@@EngelsCoachShop AHhh, You know about cats and BAGS!! :-)
Haha! That is exactly how I bend steel conduit at work. Well, I don't use steam and it isn't beautiful ash but it can wrinkle and it does need a little tweaking.
I've never steam bent timber before. But I'm in the process of replacing some bentwood frames on a boat.
Have you, or do you, ever experience some relaxation in the bends after several days drying?
Could the form be causing problems? Is the bow “sticking” to the form, restricting its ability to compress? In other words, as the bend progresses, when the wood comes in contact with the form it can’t compress further, so all of the compression has to happen toward the end of the bow, those forces build up and it buckles. If it could slide on the form, the compressive force might redistribute a bit so that further compression could happen in the material already in contact with the form.
its a shame the useful sides (good bends) couldn't be cut and jointed together. I wonder how it would bend if the ends were bandsaw cut in where the bend starts. steam the wood and apply glue between the slices and bend it up? it would be like bending two thinner boards instead of one thicker and allow the wood to not need as much compression because the two pieces could slip at the glue joint?
Terbaik keta kuda era cowboys duluX di amerika...
I have heard that kiln drying makes lumber less suitable for steam bending. The heat "sets" the lignin or something like that.
Thank you for the back round. I never knew that wood would work harden like some metals.
Bravo Maestro ❤🤝❤✌respekt
What a pain in the ash!
I learnt two things about steam bending & ash framing. You steam green wood. You use split ash , not sawn.
Would it have been acceptable to put a finger joint splice in the bow (after bending) in the event getting a good bend on such a long piece didn't work?
I noticed that you put the bar clamps on after you started the bend, not before like the first 3. That means the wood was hotter when you started the bend.
urr the boss dave
Mr. Engels, by 'grain deviation' do you mean grain run-out where the grain 'runs out' of the milled surface?
you keep saying you aren't rushing, it's speeded up but how much time to you have with steamed lumber to bend it?
Just an idle question; what do you figure is your working time on these 1 ½ inch boards, from the time you remove them from the steamer, to when they have to be bent?