I saw one of your videos and thought you were yt veterans with hundreds of thousands of followers. Quality is top and you guys have great chemistry and are comfortable in front of the camera. I can't wait for your followers to match the quality of your content, guys. Keep it up.
Wow, thank you. Comments like yours really fuel a small channel like ours. Sincerely appreciate you taking the time to make our day. That was genuinely so very nice of you.
DnD's Warlock is more about a simple person turned into a magical hero/villain, it focuses more on the powers you get and doesnt really focus on the trade of the pact, in some tables the fact that the warlock has a pact might not ever come up and be basically forgotten. While DC20's Warlock really emphasizes the trade of the pact, what you really lose to get this powers and how you can be efficient to not lean into them too much and bite more than you can chew, and the flavor feature bringing the relation with the patron into the game at level 1 (counter to DnD's 5.24 Contat Patron that only unlock as LEVEL 9... why?). In my opinion, DC20's Warlock really shows the sacrifice and facilitates the RolePlay of give and take with another entity
Exactly correct. We've always said "f you're not going to role-play the pact, then pick a different class". I don't think the DM should let a warlock player level up (get new powers) until they give something to the patron. Something precious to them that should be very difficult to give up. Or do something that they really don't want to do for the patron. Always a price to pay for your abilities.
Don't forget that Celestial Warlocks exist, and that means some form of Good or Neutral, but not Evil, patron diety, and giving up something to them would be significantly different than giving up something to a Fiend or Archfey.
@@Bardicaggravation Now that's a difficult question. If we assume that your patron is the Ruling Power of a Celestial Plane, and not just a servant of a Ruling Power, then perhaps they'd like their material plane servants to be True Believers. If that's true, then a True Believer would probably Tithe of their income, incorporate some form of worship into their short and long rests and down time, and would do some form of public or private service to the needy or the downtrodden, or enact some form of justice against evil-doers or undead, or abberations, or whatever things your patron abhors, and would certainly be required to abide by some sort of moral code that fits their patron's ethos. If the True Believer abides by all of these, and answers their patron's call for active service, they advance in power. If infractions are commited, acts of penance would be required; if infractions continue or are greivous enough, your patron may punish you with permanent disadvantage on every roll, or could even strip levels from you, requiring you to earn them back by greater acts of service or extraordinary penance. If your patron is also jealous of your affection, they might even ask you to give up that really cool magic item you've grown a little too fond of, or may ask you to distance yourself from a beloved companion that follows a path your patron doesn't approve of. A lot of this would naturally fall at the feet of the DM, but most of the flavor of this relies on the player being really invested in acting the part of a True Believer. Took me all day to think of this. I'm not certain this would be accepted at most tables, as modern DnD players and DM's can be a little...antagonistic, perhaps, to hyper-religious characters. The good thing about this kind of character, so long as they aren't lawful stupid, is that it can drive inter-party conflict, which drives character growth and development, which only occurs under adversity, and should be the point of DnD roleplay.
As an afterthought, neither the Archfey nor the Fiend should be particularly intersted in anything but your faithful service. The Fiend may ask you to do some really objectionable things, and that might be the cost you pay, but the Archey probably wont. What I can see an Archfey doing is selecting a material plane mortal and imbuing them with a touch of power for the purpose of establishing a trust-relationship so the Archfey can call upon a reliable servant, and later perhaps an ally, that isn't a Fey to perform certain tasks a Fey, no matter how loyal, might not be trusted with. Most of these would be material plane tasks, like tracking down low threat level fey, or securing artefacts the Archfey needs, and later on you might be called to the Feywild to involve yourself in Fey politics or social engagements as an emmisary of your patron. Or your patron may have given you those powers just so they can yank your chain every five minutes because they're bored and want to see how insane they can make you. Both are equally likely when dealing with the Fey, and you might get both: it just depends on the day.
Discord? 😮 I'm game for that. Great vid! These vids are really helping to reabsorb all the DC20 info without having to repeatedly reread the whole players guide (or by making an eldritch pact with the Dungeon Coach)
Yet again I absolutely love these videos! Keep them coming haha One point of clarification: generally DC stands for “difficult class” when it comes to checks or saving throws, so you make a “____ check” or “____ save” against a difficulty class of __
Oh hell yeah. Once he has those animate dead mechanics in the game, that could be a lot of fun. Brandon will probably make that character. He likes dead things.
Loving the videos, they are very succinct when comparing DND to DC20. The more I hear about it the more I want to switch to DC20, I've even started incorporating the DC20 mechanics into DND games(I DM 3 of them)
I’m kind of bummed that DC20’s subclasses don’t come into play till level 3. With DnD it makes sense because of multiclassing giving you everything a class gets at level 1. Multiclassing in itself is an issue in DnD, but that’s neither here nor there for my point. But in DC20, you don’t have the same clunky Multiclassing system. You don’t have to worry about people getting certain features with it. You can’t get subclass features from multiclassing talents until a later level. I think it would be fair to give subclasses at level 1. While I can understand if that perhaps that doesn’t work with the power budget DC always refers to, but I think there would be logical ways to work around it. People want to feel like they are embodying their character fantasy at level 1. If it would be too powerful to give them full features at level 1, give a flavor feature. Have a subclass feature that serves purely to let people role play their subclass at level 1. For example, let’s say you want to be an archfey warlock. The flavor feature at level 1 could have to do with resisting charmed or having some benefit for charming others. Obviously this is more off the top of my head so it isn’t fleshed out, but I feel like there could be something to implement subclasses at earlier levels.
I actually agree with.this. It's pretty much built into the Spellblade when you choose your disciplines. And, to a lesser extent, the cleric. Those feel like choosing a subclass to me. Could easily be done with the other classes.
Agreed. It's crazy to be a Knight at level three without being a squire at level one. Basically the exact same mistake 2024 made with the patron for Warlocks. Sure I can choose to work out a deal with the DM regarding my status as a squire until level three but what if the campaign doesn't bring me to a person who can knight me when I Make level three?
@@pheralanpathfinder4897 As we've delved into these classes for our videos, I realized that the classes don't really need subclasses in DC20. Because everything in this game system is so customizable, every class could just have a menu of feature options at every level that players could spend points on to build their own specific "subclass" or specialization for the class they chose at level 1.
I believe how the 2024 Patron issue is essentially being played as “You have a patron, but the patron specific powers don’t manifest until you reach level 3”
@@Bardicaggravation Yeah. Honestly they should’ve just done either a full edition change or a more robust edit to deal with the parts of the game that make the level 3 thing “necessary” to begin with.
@@Bardicaggravationit's awkward but helps new players learn the class before choosing a sbclass. Personally I would have separated patrons and deities from the subclass powers. Choose the name at level one then select the game mechanics at level 3.
Alright my take on the patronless Warlock (IE: levels 1-2) at this point you are researching ancient tomes, finding dark rituals, learning spells that were never meant to be found, essentially being sort of a occultist dude, that gets noticed by a patron, but you don't know the source and aren't introduced to your patron until level 3.
@@tendracalrissian8820 That could actually be a lot of fun. I think I'd have to give my DM a list of my top 3, so I don't get stuck with a Patron I have no desire to role play about.
@@alderaancrumbs6260 Very much appreciated. Great name, btw. Took a minute to hit me, then made me laugh. That would be a perfect name for a band or a YT channel.
I really like how the dc20 warlock leans more into the WOW (vanilla) warlock, rather than the DnD warlock. You get to be like a vampire’ish class, and its quite nice tbh
It would rock my world if this was a comparison to something worthwhile... like Humanity rules in Vampire: the Masquerade, or anything which even touches the concept of deals with darkness, or edginess, or perhaps "how to actually have edgy characters in group roleplay". Rules for Warlock in Durable Chalk 20 are just that... rules. As you said, like a Blood Magus. The rules themselves are very cool and super fun. The rules in... that corporate system... are trying to support a class fantasy which their entire philosophy of gaming reduces to a cartoon character anyway and gameplay doesn't support more than the most superficial of references to the lore elements of that class fantasy. But.. we should be careful about reading my forbidden tomes. I can just keep going and going about this, and we're not sure if there's any real good result from it...
I love your forbidden tomes. So much valuable food for thought whether you realize it or not. In the livestream tonight, Alan said that, in reworking his classes, he's moving them away from his D&D cut and paste jobs and more into something original and new. I really hope that proves to be true. Especially with the warlock and sorcerer.
Lately Dungeon Coach made a sneak peak about the fact that on the 2nd lvl all classes will get only 1 Class Feature and 1 Talent (he said that getting 3 abilities per lvl is too much)
Is it required to tell players to pick a deity at level one? Is it forbidden to tell the DM which patron you chose in your backstory? The flavor is goofy. But from the view of teaching a new player its logical. Ket them learn the game mechanics before they make the second biggest decision for their character. The biggest being the class they choose at level one. I get that this was nade for the WotC haters, but DC20 has plenty of flaws.
DC20 does have plenty of flaws. But it's still in beta testing so the dev can get feedback and iron those out. His latest "fix" coming out next month is a Level 0 character creator so new players can learn the game and their class with no pressure. It makes a huge difference, for us, to be able to feel like your class at Level 1. D&D doesn't do that anymore. Also, we look at these games strictly from a role play perspective. I'll always love D&D for getting me started in this amazing and unique hobby. But 5E turned it into a super hero game with no risk or consequences. Great for power gamers. Not so much for immersion seeking role players. In my opinion, of course. We do appreciate the critical feedback. I wish more people would voice what they disagree with us about rather than just a thumbs down. Critical feedback helps us shape our channel just as much as positive comments. So, thank you.
Front loading too many choices reminds me of D&D 3.x and PF1e (I didn't play D&D 4e, so I can't speak to that). Those required you to plan feat choices at level 1 to work toward a prestige you wouldn't get until level 6 or 8. I have always liked the Warhammer style of starting characters. You are almost complete with your 1st career, but you have 1 talent of 4. In that, you can advance with only 1 talent from that list, but you may want to pick up the rest first. In a less free-form leveling game (such as DC20 or D&D*), that is what missing a subclass can feel like to me (though it can vary on specific situation). You are finishing your apprenticeship and are starting to learn on your own. I do think you don't want to wait too long before locking in a more solid feel for a subclass, but agree that it doesn't necessarily need to be at level 1. *Edit: Yes there are many options to choose from (talents, feats, cross-class skills), but "less free-form" compared to jumping between multiple classes and leveling a skill or stat at a time.
@@xvim7106 Interesting points. I'm not familiar with the Warhammer method. As I've said in other posts, though, I don't feel that DC20 even needs specific subclasses. The way that it's designed with so much customizability, they should just have a menu of point buy class features at level up and let the player design their own subclass/specialization. That's why I like the from loaded class stuff at 1st and 2nd levels.
@@Bardicaggravation I think that is reasonable, I do think that you should feel like what you want to play early. I don't think that the choices currently there are excessive, but I would be a little reluctant to get too much deeper at level 1. I don't see an issue with having the more specialized features being a "choose from pool" type selection either and agree it would fit fairly well with the style of system being created. I just think that having that pool accessible at 2 or 3 makes it less of a barrier for a new player than also having that be a level 1 choice.
I saw one of your videos and thought you were yt veterans with hundreds of thousands of followers. Quality is top and you guys have great chemistry and are comfortable in front of the camera. I can't wait for your followers to match the quality of your content, guys. Keep it up.
Wow, thank you. Comments like yours really fuel a small channel like ours. Sincerely appreciate you taking the time to make our day. That was genuinely so very nice of you.
@@Bardicaggravation No problemo, guys. Good luck!
DnD's Warlock is more about a simple person turned into a magical hero/villain, it focuses more on the powers you get and doesnt really focus on the trade of the pact, in some tables the fact that the warlock has a pact might not ever come up and be basically forgotten. While DC20's Warlock really emphasizes the trade of the pact, what you really lose to get this powers and how you can be efficient to not lean into them too much and bite more than you can chew, and the flavor feature bringing the relation with the patron into the game at level 1 (counter to DnD's 5.24 Contat Patron that only unlock as LEVEL 9... why?). In my opinion, DC20's Warlock really shows the sacrifice and facilitates the RolePlay of give and take with another entity
Exactly correct. We've always said "f you're not going to role-play the pact, then pick a different class".
I don't think the DM should let a warlock player level up (get new powers) until they give something to the patron. Something precious to them that should be very difficult to give up. Or do something that they really don't want to do for the patron. Always a price to pay for your abilities.
Don't forget that Celestial Warlocks exist, and that means some form of Good or Neutral, but not Evil, patron diety, and giving up something to them would be significantly different than giving up something to a Fiend or Archfey.
@@tendracalrissian8820 That's a good point. What kinds of things would you imagine having to give up to a Celestial patron?
@@Bardicaggravation Now that's a difficult question. If we assume that your patron is the Ruling Power of a Celestial Plane, and not just a servant of a Ruling Power, then perhaps they'd like their material plane servants to be True Believers. If that's true, then a True Believer would probably Tithe of their income, incorporate some form of worship into their short and long rests and down time, and would do some form of public or private service to the needy or the downtrodden, or enact some form of justice against evil-doers or undead, or abberations, or whatever things your patron abhors, and would certainly be required to abide by some sort of moral code that fits their patron's ethos. If the True Believer abides by all of these, and answers their patron's call for active service, they advance in power. If infractions are commited, acts of penance would be required; if infractions continue or are greivous enough, your patron may punish you with permanent disadvantage on every roll, or could even strip levels from you, requiring you to earn them back by greater acts of service or extraordinary penance. If your patron is also jealous of your affection, they might even ask you to give up that really cool magic item you've grown a little too fond of, or may ask you to distance yourself from a beloved companion that follows a path your patron doesn't approve of. A lot of this would naturally fall at the feet of the DM, but most of the flavor of this relies on the player being really invested in acting the part of a True Believer.
Took me all day to think of this. I'm not certain this would be accepted at most tables, as modern DnD players and DM's can be a little...antagonistic, perhaps, to hyper-religious characters. The good thing about this kind of character, so long as they aren't lawful stupid, is that it can drive inter-party conflict, which drives character growth and development, which only occurs under adversity, and should be the point of DnD roleplay.
As an afterthought, neither the Archfey nor the Fiend should be particularly intersted in anything but your faithful service. The Fiend may ask you to do some really objectionable things, and that might be the cost you pay, but the Archey probably wont. What I can see an Archfey doing is selecting a material plane mortal and imbuing them with a touch of power for the purpose of establishing a trust-relationship so the Archfey can call upon a reliable servant, and later perhaps an ally, that isn't a Fey to perform certain tasks a Fey, no matter how loyal, might not be trusted with. Most of these would be material plane tasks, like tracking down low threat level fey, or securing artefacts the Archfey needs, and later on you might be called to the Feywild to involve yourself in Fey politics or social engagements as an emmisary of your patron. Or your patron may have given you those powers just so they can yank your chain every five minutes because they're bored and want to see how insane they can make you. Both are equally likely when dealing with the Fey, and you might get both: it just depends on the day.
What kind of patron are you willing to sign a pact with for a Klondike bar?
Santa Clause.
Nice bunch of videos guys. Very nice job comparing classes. I believe these will be a nice tool for sharing with groups before changing systems.
Thanks so much, John. Comments like this really help us to keep going.
Let us know if there's anything you'd like us to cover in future videos.
Discord? 😮 I'm game for that. Great vid! These vids are really helping to reabsorb all the DC20 info without having to repeatedly reread the whole players guide (or by making an eldritch pact with the Dungeon Coach)
Thanks, Simeon.
We're thinking of starting our Discord soon. Maybe when we start uploading our actual play campaign...
Yet again I absolutely love these videos! Keep them coming haha
One point of clarification: generally DC stands for “difficult class” when it comes to checks or saving throws, so you make a “____ check” or “____ save” against a difficulty class of __
Brandon is a "difficult class".
For the ALGORITHM!!!
💜🐲💜🐧💜🐲💜
Thank you.
I bet you could build a badass necromancer out of this!
Oh hell yeah. Once he has those animate dead mechanics in the game, that could be a lot of fun. Brandon will probably make that character. He likes dead things.
You will be huge some day
Brandon's already huge.
Seriously, though, thanks so much for the encouraging comment. It really keeps us motivated.
Perfect timing guys, I was struggling with how I felt about Warlock last night and this really helped to see its potential for me :)
I love when stuff like that happens.
Loving the videos, they are very succinct when comparing DND to DC20. The more I hear about it the more I want to switch to DC20, I've even started incorporating the DC20 mechanics into DND games(I DM 3 of them)
Keep pushing' til they give in. Claudio Wild has a great vid about switching from D&D to DC20.
I’m kind of bummed that DC20’s subclasses don’t come into play till level 3. With DnD it makes sense because of multiclassing giving you everything a class gets at level 1. Multiclassing in itself is an issue in DnD, but that’s neither here nor there for my point. But in DC20, you don’t have the same clunky Multiclassing system. You don’t have to worry about people getting certain features with it. You can’t get subclass features from multiclassing talents until a later level. I think it would be fair to give subclasses at level 1. While I can understand if that perhaps that doesn’t work with the power budget DC always refers to, but I think there would be logical ways to work around it. People want to feel like they are embodying their character fantasy at level 1. If it would be too powerful to give them full features at level 1, give a flavor feature. Have a subclass feature that serves purely to let people role play their subclass at level 1. For example, let’s say you want to be an archfey warlock. The flavor feature at level 1 could have to do with resisting charmed or having some benefit for charming others. Obviously this is more off the top of my head so it isn’t fleshed out, but I feel like there could be something to implement subclasses at earlier levels.
I actually agree with.this. It's pretty much built into the Spellblade when you choose your disciplines. And, to a lesser extent, the cleric. Those feel like choosing a subclass to me. Could easily be done with the other classes.
Agreed. It's crazy to be a Knight at level three without being a squire at level one. Basically the exact same mistake 2024 made with the patron for Warlocks.
Sure I can choose to work out a deal with the DM regarding my status as a squire until level three but what if the campaign doesn't bring me to a person who can knight me when I Make level three?
@@pheralanpathfinder4897 As we've delved into these classes for our videos, I realized that the classes don't really need subclasses in DC20. Because everything in this game system is so customizable, every class could just have a menu of feature options at every level that players could spend points on to build their own specific "subclass" or specialization for the class they chose at level 1.
You do feel like the class at level 1, which is by design.
@@alderaancrumbs6260 Yep. The Dungeon Coach is proud of that, as he should be.
I believe how the 2024 Patron issue is essentially being played as “You have a patron, but the patron specific powers don’t manifest until you reach level 3”
Yep. Which is silly and lazy on the part of the devs, in my opinion.
@@Bardicaggravation Yeah. Honestly they should’ve just done either a full edition change or a more robust edit to deal with the parts of the game that make the level 3 thing “necessary” to begin with.
@@rekcroom Full edition change for sure. This was the messiest "update" I've ever seen a company attempt.
@@Bardicaggravationit's awkward but helps new players learn the class before choosing a sbclass.
Personally I would have separated patrons and deities from the subclass powers. Choose the name at level one then select the game mechanics at level 3.
@@pheralanpathfinder4897 That would be a better fix to the problem, for sure.
Dude nice Tom Waits shirt Kent, huge fan of the crazy man that records in a shed. Now I shall watch the episode. ;)
I was hoping that shirt would snag the attention of fellow Waits fans.
👍👍👍
Thank you.
Alright my take on the patronless Warlock (IE: levels 1-2) at this point you are researching ancient tomes, finding dark rituals, learning spells that were never meant to be found, essentially being sort of a occultist dude, that gets noticed by a patron, but you don't know the source and aren't introduced to your patron until level 3.
That's a great solution. Are you going to use that if you play a Warlock?
If I played this sort of Warlock, I'd have my DM roll to see which Patron I got.
@@tendracalrissian8820 That could actually be a lot of fun. I think I'd have to give my DM a list of my top 3, so I don't get stuck with a Patron I have no desire to role play about.
The choice is really easy after one simple question: Which one isn’t by WotC?
We agree!
@@Bardicaggravation great channel, BTW. Funny and informative. Subbed.
@@alderaancrumbs6260 Very much appreciated.
Great name, btw. Took a minute to hit me, then made me laugh. That would be a perfect name for a band or a YT channel.
I really like how the dc20 warlock leans more into the WOW (vanilla) warlock, rather than the DnD warlock. You get to be like a vampire’ish class, and its quite nice tbh
Yes. It's so immersive how you have to literally bleed to use some your powers. Constant reminder of the bargain you made.
🙂👍🏻
Thank you.
It would rock my world if this was a comparison to something worthwhile... like Humanity rules in Vampire: the Masquerade, or anything which even touches the concept of deals with darkness, or edginess, or perhaps "how to actually have edgy characters in group roleplay".
Rules for Warlock in Durable Chalk 20 are just that... rules. As you said, like a Blood Magus. The rules themselves are very cool and super fun. The rules in... that corporate system... are trying to support a class fantasy which their entire philosophy of gaming reduces to a cartoon character anyway and gameplay doesn't support more than the most superficial of references to the lore elements of that class fantasy.
But.. we should be careful about reading my forbidden tomes. I can just keep going and going about this, and we're not sure if there's any real good result from it...
I love your forbidden tomes. So much valuable food for thought whether you realize it or not.
In the livestream tonight, Alan said that, in reworking his classes, he's moving them away from his D&D cut and paste jobs and more into something original and new. I really hope that proves to be true. Especially with the warlock and sorcerer.
Lately Dungeon Coach made a sneak peak about the fact that on the 2nd lvl all classes will get only 1 Class Feature and 1 Talent (he said that getting 3 abilities per lvl is too much)
Yeah, we'll be addressing that in our subclass videos when beta 9 releases.
Is it required to tell players to pick a deity at level one?
Is it forbidden to tell the DM which patron you chose in your backstory?
The flavor is goofy. But from the view of teaching a new player its logical. Ket them learn the game mechanics before they make the second biggest decision for their character. The biggest being the class they choose at level one.
I get that this was nade for the WotC haters, but DC20 has plenty of flaws.
DC20 does have plenty of flaws. But it's still in beta testing so the dev can get feedback and iron those out.
His latest "fix" coming out next month is a Level 0 character creator so new players can learn the game and their class with no pressure.
It makes a huge difference, for us, to be able to feel like your class at Level 1. D&D doesn't do that anymore.
Also, we look at these games strictly from a role play perspective. I'll always love D&D for getting me started in this amazing and unique hobby. But 5E turned it into a super hero game with no risk or consequences. Great for power gamers. Not so much for immersion seeking role players. In my opinion, of course.
We do appreciate the critical feedback. I wish more people would voice what they disagree with us about rather than just a thumbs down. Critical feedback helps us shape our channel just as much as positive comments.
So, thank you.
Front loading too many choices reminds me of D&D 3.x and PF1e (I didn't play D&D 4e, so I can't speak to that).
Those required you to plan feat choices at level 1 to work toward a prestige you wouldn't get until level 6 or 8.
I have always liked the Warhammer style of starting characters. You are almost complete with your 1st career, but you have 1 talent of 4. In that, you can advance with only 1 talent from that list, but you may want to pick up the rest first.
In a less free-form leveling game (such as DC20 or D&D*), that is what missing a subclass can feel like to me (though it can vary on specific situation). You are finishing your apprenticeship and are starting to learn on your own.
I do think you don't want to wait too long before locking in a more solid feel for a subclass, but agree that it doesn't necessarily need to be at level 1.
*Edit: Yes there are many options to choose from (talents, feats, cross-class skills), but "less free-form" compared to jumping between multiple classes and leveling a skill or stat at a time.
@@xvim7106 Interesting points. I'm not familiar with the Warhammer method.
As I've said in other posts, though, I don't feel that DC20 even needs specific subclasses. The way that it's designed with so much customizability, they should just have a menu of point buy class features at level up and let the player design their own subclass/specialization. That's why I like the from loaded class stuff at 1st and 2nd levels.
@@Bardicaggravation I think that is reasonable, I do think that you should feel like what you want to play early. I don't think that the choices currently there are excessive, but I would be a little reluctant to get too much deeper at level 1.
I don't see an issue with having the more specialized features being a "choose from pool" type selection either and agree it would fit fairly well with the style of system being created. I just think that having that pool accessible at 2 or 3 makes it less of a barrier for a new player than also having that be a level 1 choice.
They plump when you cook them? All about the ballpark franks....
But only with mustard!
obligatory comment 👍