Hey guys really enjoy these style videos and the hop ones as well. Basically my whole brewing career I’ve been doing lagers experiments with malts and adjuncts to see what malts I enjoy and don’t. Surprisingly I agree, for the basemalts the differences aren’t as night and day as people make it seem. Minerality, mash schedule and yeast really seem to magnify the differences but it usually goes with the style. Cheers
I have compared Maris Otter and Breiss Pale Ale Malt in American Pale/IPA/Amber Ales, International Pale Lagers and Czech Lagers with 34/70 and US-05, and can say that the verrrrry subtle differences in the two malts don't make me want to pay a dollar more per pound for Maris Otter. In my experience, that is. Thanks for the great video, as usual, and really enjoying all your videos. Cheers!
Thanks for putting up this comment Laurence. I only use Briess pale ale liquid malt extract to brew my uk clone beers which would normally be made with Marris Otter so it’s great to know the difference is only extremely subtle.
I started a short story based on this malt. "One day walking along the beach, I came upon an old beer stein half buried in the sand. I looked at it and decided it looked kinda old and kinda cool so I pulled it from the sand and took it to the edge of the shore and washed it off. Some of the sand was crusted on the sides so I wiped it off. Out of nowhere there was this thundering boom and I was knocked back halfway across the beach. When I got up I saw a short little german man with a keg for a belly complete with the handlebar mustache and monocle walking towards me from the water. He had the beer stein in his hand and as he approached he boomed “I’m so glad you found it I’ve been in there for ages, My name is Maris and I am a beer djinn!” "
@@Soupy_loopy It's a classic "careful what you wish for" kind of story. The narrator thinks he's being clever but of course he's not as clever as six thousand year old djinn. I got caught up in some of the back story and how this djinn came into being and ultimately contributed to the fall of the Sumerians so it's actually two separate stories now that kind of mirror each other. It's been shelved for years while I work on other things but I do want to finish it at some point.
Great experiment "Dudes." Not sure why I just caught this 10 months later. While great info, I usually ask myself 2 Row or Weyermann Pilsner malt. Would make another good comparison. Thanks and keep it up!
These comps are something I want to play with more. But its brewing two beers for one video and its time consuming. But I am going to try. Cheers! -Mike
You should look into doing an ASBC Malt Evaluation test on one of the episodes. We did that with our brew club, very interesting experiment to get a sense of the differences of the different malts.
At Muntons they would use a lager yeast when doing sensory specifically to see how much sulfur would come through. The idea was to see how well a malt or barley variety would mask off flavors. Maris Otter masks off flavors very well. That along with very low beta glucans, makes Maris Otter a very easy and forgiving variety to brew with.
Thanks for doing the comparisons on what I think I would like to do, but never take the time. I honestly am not sure I can tell a difference when using Marris in my stouts. I always figured I could in lighter beers and just have never bothered to do a side my side. Cheers
As you mentioned towards the end, it would have been nice to try with a different yeast just to see if one malt or the other would shine. Using one more yeast really doesn't add that much work, apart from having to clean two more fermenters, but I truly believe that the differences would really be noticeable. Look forward to the next video.
The both finished about 1.010 both of them started around 1.052. Both malts are pretty well modified and going through a three step mash regime looks like it put them on the same attenuation path. Cheers! -Mike
I've brewed porters with 2 row Gambrinus pale malt and porters Maris Otter. I think I gave the edge to the Maris Otter but unless you have both to taste at the same time its hard to be sure. Maybe its influenced by tradition using a British malt in a British ale.
Love this experiment, right on target with what I'm thinking, I don't have a lot of home brew shops around me, so they're only going to inventory what they can essentially sell, and those grain charts you can look at really only a perception of a company, or a couple people, beady versus biscuity grainy vs. toasted bread, you just don't really know. And then you can choose some grain for your recipe and the two that you picked might not taste well together or clash
Maris Otter for me is the ideal malt base for my big beers. It's more efficient than Chevallier but still wonderfully characterful base for making a rich malty ale.
Interesting as always. Although I do kind of wish you'd done a triangle test (and gone with a clean ale yeast rather than a lager) I don't think your conclusions are far away from my thoughts on the differences. I've always considered Maris Otter / bog-standard pale ale as substitutable but different enough to have a definite preference for some applications. That goes both ways and I often find myself trying to "lighten up" M.O. for US styles, for example. There's also the fact that there isn't generally a huge price gap between M.O. and the pale ale for a home brewer here in the UK and it's highly available. which makes choosing to go that route less of a question and the difference doesn't have to be night and day to warrant spending the extra pennies.
Makes sense Maris Otter isn't so pricey in UK. Most of the time, it can be significant price difference in the US. But it depends on the style; if you want a maltier beer, you're probably spending less on hops, so doesn't hurt as much to spend a little more on malt.
Maybe next time I'll hit John with the triangle test and see if he really can tell them apart. Its harder to do when the color does give it away some. Even in opaque cups. Cheers! -Mike
My LHBS (Hillsboro OR, USA) puts a 30-45% premium on MO over the local 2 row, depending on maltster (I can get Crisp, Fawcett and Baird here). I still get it regularly because I'm a sucker for British styles, and even the fanciest grain bill is MUCH cheaper than 5 gal equivalent of even the cheapest beer from the grocery store. Cheers!
Super interesting experiment guys, thank you. Like you, I wonder how a malt-forward yeast would change the dynamic. That said, let’s not forget - these are base malts! They’re like one degree Lovibond different. They’re intended to be pretty interchangeable, with slight accents - which is kind of what you’re describing. In recent years I’ve been a big fan of Barke Pilsner, I wonder how it’d stack up to generic 2-row pale malt? Barke *seems* like a flavor bomb, but maybe I’m conflating it with the whole recipe package.
I have other thoughts on the Industrialization of malt and why companies making things like Barke Pils seem to stand out... but that's for another video. Cheers! -Mike
Yeast matters a lot! I have done a lot of yeast experiments and 34/70 type yeasts tend to strip out a lot of malt flavor (maybe that is useful here). But other yeast (lager or not) put the flavors of the malt on show. So as you described, the combination of malt and yeast seems to really be the key. Or to say it another way: each choice has an impact but the final beer is determined by the compounding of all the choices in recipe and brewing process.
I think that's the best way to sum it up; the final beers profile is a compounding of all the choices in the recipe and process. Seems like in the hobby we get hyper focused on single techniques or ingredients thinking it'll make great beer. But you gotta stay at a certain altitude and view the beer from the proper distance to make all these little pieces come together. Cheers! -Mike
Just throwing this out there: I've brewed the same oatmeal stout recipe for 8 or 9 years with maris otter as the base. Replacing maris otter with rahr 2-row makes the beer not as good. Ok so that's very anecdotal, but try some super english stout with these two base malts switched up might be a good next step. I use fuggle and WLP007 for the yeast.
I agree. A future experiment will need to be done exploring the effect of a more ester forward English Ale yeast. My similar anecdotal evidence is that I have brewed stouts with MO only to think it was too malty. I blended in some American 2-row with MO and it gets toned down. Point being MO is situation dependent I think; lilke most any other malt or hop. CHEERS! -Mike
@@BrewDudes One of the things that makes your channel so good is the quantity of well documented recipes you've uploaded. I watched several of your more recent stout videos, and was particularly intrigued by this one: Brewing Stout with West Yorkshire Ale Yeast ruclips.net/video/EmBT8vyaOE8/видео.html First, this stout seems to have gotten the best reaction out of you guys of the more recent stouts. You guys really seemed to enjoy it. But there is a fantastic difference in the video and the description! In the video you say the recipe is 75% Maris Otter, but in the description and blog post the grain bill says: 5 pounds (2.27 kg) of Briess Pale Ale Malt - 3.5°L 5 pounds (2.27 kg) of Briess Brewers Malt - 1.8°L 0.5 pounds (227 g) of Roasted Barley - 450°L 0.5 pounds (227 g) of Crisp Chocolate Malt - 400°L 0.25 pounds (113 g) of Bairds Medium Crystal Malt - 50/60°L 0.25 pounds (113 g) of Briess Caramel Malt - 120°L 1.5 pounds (680 g) of Flaked Oats -2.5°L I would also like to note, the data suggests this stout was brewed very well: the beer was 5% abv, fg 1.014, and the calculated ibu's were 20.44. (BJCP lists oatmeal stout with 4.2-5.9%, 1.010-1.018, and 25-40 IBU's.) This was not a beer with a wildly different alcohol content or final gravity then the drinker would expect for the style. If we are to compare ingredients within a style, I think it helps that the metrics are good for the style. BJCP metrics are one thing, but how the beer tastes is another, right? All I'm saying is, according to the bjcp guidelines, you hit oatmeal stout nail on the head. Anyway, I think maris otter proponents would say that you brewed a good oatmeal stout by the guidelines in this video, and used maris otter, so that probably helped. But is the recipe written down correct and the comment about maris otter incorrect? Maybe you did brew this stout without it and it didn't matter. Either way, this "house stout" recipe is the one I would try with and without fancy maris otter. You guys seemed to really like that beer, so it should be easy enough to replace one ingredient and see what your reaction is. And for us at home, we can see that it was a recipe you really nailed in terms of abv, fg, and ibu. Since we can't try the beer, this at least gives us an idea that those super basic qualifiers of the style are on point. I do find it fascinating that both your reaction to the beer in the video AND the metrics suggest you nailed it.
I like to use rahr pale ale malt over rarhr 2 row. In my experience the color is extremely noticeable. The flavor is just a bit richer and has a much fuller feel in my opinion. I have honestly never used marris otter but I believe rahr pale ale would be a better choice to stand against marris otter. The pale ale I'd around 3 lov so much closer also. My go to summer crusher is 85% rarh pale ale 10% weyerman munich 1 and 5% wheat malt. I just use whatever hop I'm in the mood for and keep a 40-50 bu/gu ratio. Usually gives a nice 6ish srm deep gold beer.
Welp... Time to build the English side by side the see if it's the intangibles that make the diff...back ones variants can make quite the difference ..(he says not prepared to do the side by side immediately) hahs
Great video, I agree with the mentality that (especially just being at home for own consumption and not a competition for example) American base malt could be used in English beers, and pale ale may even be closer than just pale malt. I use pilsner as my general base for nearly everything including stouts unless I'm targeting something specific or going for a competition. I also use cheap dry yeast 90% off the time because the beer is still great with that but I'll switch to liquid for a competition.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Love these split comparisons, keep them coming it's awesome content!!
Thanks for the support! Cheers! -Mike
Base malt comparison! 🙌 Well done.
More to come. Cheers! -Mike
Hey guys really enjoy these style videos and the hop ones as well. Basically my whole brewing career I’ve been doing lagers experiments with malts and adjuncts to see what malts I enjoy and don’t. Surprisingly I agree, for the basemalts the differences aren’t as night and day as people make it seem. Minerality, mash schedule and yeast really seem to magnify the differences but it usually goes with the style.
Cheers
Great insights. Cheers! -Mike
great comparison -thanks. Look forward to adding in pilsner addition
Yes! Cheers! -Mike
I look froward to your videos every week . You're doing God's work gentlemen. Thank you for all that you do.
Kind words. Thanks. Cheers! -Mike
I have compared Maris Otter and Breiss Pale Ale Malt in American Pale/IPA/Amber Ales, International Pale Lagers and Czech Lagers with 34/70 and US-05, and can say that the verrrrry subtle differences in the two malts don't make me want to pay a dollar more per pound for Maris Otter. In my experience, that is. Thanks for the great video, as usual, and really enjoying all your videos. Cheers!
Same here. Hope to do an English Ale (hops and yeast) with the two malts again side by side and see what happens there. Cheers! -Mike
Thanks for putting up this comment Laurence. I only use Briess pale ale liquid malt extract to brew my uk clone beers which would normally be made with Marris Otter so it’s great to know the difference is only extremely subtle.
Excellent comparison!!
Thanks for watching. Cheers! -Mike
Thanks! This is great! Can't wait to see future malt comparisons.
Cheers! -Mike
This is a great idea. I think comparing is much more informative than just trying to taste one ingredient.
Cheers! -Mike
Another great experiment. Maris otter is highly praised in the community, rightfully so.. maybe 2-row deserves more respect
Right on! Cheers! -Mike
Another fantastic experiment guys, I'll look forward to more of your comparison videos.
More to come. Thanks for the support. Cheers! -Mike
Good video guys, thanks very much.
Cheers! -Mike
I started a short story based on this malt.
"One day walking along the beach, I came upon an old beer stein half buried in the sand. I looked at it and decided it looked kinda old and kinda cool so I pulled it from the sand and took it to the edge of the shore and washed it off. Some of the sand was crusted on the sides so I wiped it off. Out of nowhere there was this thundering boom and I was knocked back halfway across the beach. When I got up I saw a short little german man with a keg for a belly complete with the handlebar mustache and monocle walking towards me from the water. He had the beer stein in his hand and as he approached he boomed “I’m so glad you found it I’ve been in there for ages, My name is Maris and I am a beer djinn!” "
I wish I could see where this story is going...
@@Soupy_loopy It's a classic "careful what you wish for" kind of story. The narrator thinks he's being clever but of course he's not as clever as six thousand year old djinn. I got caught up in some of the back story and how this djinn came into being and ultimately contributed to the fall of the Sumerians so it's actually two separate stories now that kind of mirror each other. It's been shelved for years while I work on other things but I do want to finish it at some point.
Cool! Love the concept. Cheers! -Mike
Great experiment "Dudes." Not sure why I just caught this 10 months later. While great info, I usually ask myself 2 Row or Weyermann Pilsner malt. Would make another good comparison. Thanks and keep it up!
These comps are something I want to play with more. But its brewing two beers for one video and its time consuming. But I am going to try. Cheers! -Mike
You should look into doing an ASBC Malt Evaluation test on one of the episodes. We did that with our brew club, very interesting experiment to get a sense of the differences of the different malts.
Interesting idea. Sounds like fun. Cheers! -Mike
So they are both barley just from different parts of the world?
Thanks, guys. I’ve been wondering for years whether the hype over Maris Otter malt was worth the extra money.
We will need a repeat with some English Ale yeast. In this instance, being super plain by design, I guess it wasn't a huge surprise. CHEERS! -Mike
Ive never used maris otter, but with winter coming im going to be brewing some stouts and browns that im looking foward to using it in
At Muntons they would use a lager yeast when doing sensory specifically to see how much sulfur would come through. The idea was to see how well a malt or barley variety would mask off flavors.
Maris Otter masks off flavors very well. That along with very low beta glucans, makes Maris Otter a very easy and forgiving variety to brew with.
Thanks for the insight and comment! Cheers! -Mike
Thanks for doing the comparisons on what I think I would like to do, but never take the time. I honestly am not sure I can tell a difference when using Marris in my stouts. I always figured I could in lighter beers and just have never bothered to do a side my side. Cheers
That's why I've been wanting to try this for a long time. Cheers! -Mike
Funny. Just bought enough Marris to try in my Oatmeal Stout, in which I use PA. I guess I'll see for myself. Good stuff guys!
Nice. Cheers! -Mike
As you mentioned towards the end, it would have been nice to try with a different yeast just to see if one malt or the other would shine. Using one more yeast really doesn't add that much work, apart from having to clean two more fermenters, but I truly believe that the differences would really be noticeable. Look forward to the next video.
Agreed. Brewing and fermenting isn't always the challenge its getting the beers packaged and carbonated all at the same time. Cheers! -Mike
What were the FGs on both?
I thought MO would end at 1.014 vs. 1.009 (for a US-05)
The both finished about 1.010 both of them started around 1.052. Both malts are pretty well modified and going through a three step mash regime looks like it put them on the same attenuation path. Cheers! -Mike
I've brewed porters with 2 row Gambrinus pale malt and porters Maris Otter. I think I gave the edge to the Maris Otter but unless you have both to taste at the same time its hard to be sure. Maybe its influenced by tradition using a British malt in a British ale.
Great points. Cheers! -Mike
Love this experiment, right on target with what I'm thinking, I don't have a lot of home brew shops around me, so they're only going to inventory what they can essentially sell, and those grain charts you can look at really only a perception of a company, or a couple people, beady versus biscuity grainy vs. toasted bread, you just don't really know. And then you can choose some grain for your recipe and the two that you picked might not taste well together or clash
Its worth it to try and experiment and really what works best in the beers you want to brew. Cheers! -Mike
Maris Otter for me is the ideal malt base for my big beers. It's more efficient than Chevallier but still wonderfully characterful base for making a rich malty ale.
Do Vienna vs Golden Promise
Those are on the list. Cheers! -Mike
Interesting as always. Although I do kind of wish you'd done a triangle test (and gone with a clean ale yeast rather than a lager) I don't think your conclusions are far away from my thoughts on the differences. I've always considered Maris Otter / bog-standard pale ale as substitutable but different enough to have a definite preference for some applications. That goes both ways and I often find myself trying to "lighten up" M.O. for US styles, for example. There's also the fact that there isn't generally a huge price gap between M.O. and the pale ale for a home brewer here in the UK and it's highly available. which makes choosing to go that route less of a question and the difference doesn't have to be night and day to warrant spending the extra pennies.
Makes sense Maris Otter isn't so pricey in UK. Most of the time, it can be significant price difference in the US. But it depends on the style; if you want a maltier beer, you're probably spending less on hops, so doesn't hurt as much to spend a little more on malt.
Maybe next time I'll hit John with the triangle test and see if he really can tell them apart. Its harder to do when the color does give it away some. Even in opaque cups. Cheers! -Mike
My LHBS (Hillsboro OR, USA) puts a 30-45% premium on MO over the local 2 row, depending on maltster (I can get Crisp, Fawcett and Baird here). I still get it regularly because I'm a sucker for British styles, and even the fanciest grain bill is MUCH cheaper than 5 gal equivalent of even the cheapest beer from the grocery store. Cheers!
Super interesting experiment guys, thank you. Like you, I wonder how a malt-forward yeast would change the dynamic. That said, let’s not forget - these are base malts! They’re like one degree Lovibond different. They’re intended to be pretty interchangeable, with slight accents - which is kind of what you’re describing.
In recent years I’ve been a big fan of Barke Pilsner, I wonder how it’d stack up to generic 2-row pale malt? Barke *seems* like a flavor bomb, but maybe I’m conflating it with the whole recipe package.
I have other thoughts on the Industrialization of malt and why companies making things like Barke Pils seem to stand out... but that's for another video. Cheers! -Mike
@@BrewDudes Chevalier is another interesting one.
glad you did this--I always figured you just pay more for maris otter because it was imported. I'd rather buy from Minnesota (Rahr)
A big test will be to compare Maris Otter to an American Pale Ale malt vs. straight 2-row. Cheers! -Mike
Yeast matters a lot! I have done a lot of yeast experiments and 34/70 type yeasts tend to strip out a lot of malt flavor (maybe that is useful here). But other yeast (lager or not) put the flavors of the malt on show. So as you described, the combination of malt and yeast seems to really be the key. Or to say it another way: each choice has an impact but the final beer is determined by the compounding of all the choices in recipe and brewing process.
I think that's the best way to sum it up; the final beers profile is a compounding of all the choices in the recipe and process. Seems like in the hobby we get hyper focused on single techniques or ingredients thinking it'll make great beer. But you gotta stay at a certain altitude and view the beer from the proper distance to make all these little pieces come together. Cheers! -Mike
Guys what happened to that intro music? I might be the only one here, but I sure miss it...
Working on it. Cheers! -Mike
Just throwing this out there: I've brewed the same oatmeal stout recipe for 8 or 9 years with maris otter as the base. Replacing maris otter with rahr 2-row makes the beer not as good. Ok so that's very anecdotal, but try some super english stout with these two base malts switched up might be a good next step. I use fuggle and WLP007 for the yeast.
I agree. A future experiment will need to be done exploring the effect of a more ester forward English Ale yeast. My similar anecdotal evidence is that I have brewed stouts with MO only to think it was too malty. I blended in some American 2-row with MO and it gets toned down. Point being MO is situation dependent I think; lilke most any other malt or hop. CHEERS! -Mike
@@BrewDudes
One of the things that makes your channel so good is the quantity of well documented recipes you've uploaded. I watched several of your more recent stout videos, and was particularly intrigued by this one:
Brewing Stout with West Yorkshire Ale Yeast
ruclips.net/video/EmBT8vyaOE8/видео.html
First, this stout seems to have gotten the best reaction out of you guys of the more recent stouts. You guys really seemed to enjoy it.
But there is a fantastic difference in the video and the description!
In the video you say the recipe is 75% Maris Otter, but in the description and blog post the grain bill says:
5 pounds (2.27 kg) of Briess Pale Ale Malt - 3.5°L
5 pounds (2.27 kg) of Briess Brewers Malt - 1.8°L
0.5 pounds (227 g) of Roasted Barley - 450°L
0.5 pounds (227 g) of Crisp Chocolate Malt - 400°L
0.25 pounds (113 g) of Bairds Medium Crystal Malt - 50/60°L
0.25 pounds (113 g) of Briess Caramel Malt - 120°L
1.5 pounds (680 g) of Flaked Oats -2.5°L
I would also like to note, the data suggests this stout was brewed very well: the beer was 5% abv, fg 1.014, and the calculated ibu's were 20.44. (BJCP lists oatmeal stout with 4.2-5.9%, 1.010-1.018, and 25-40 IBU's.) This was not a beer with a wildly different alcohol content or final gravity then the drinker would expect for the style. If we are to compare ingredients within a style, I think it helps that the metrics are good for the style. BJCP metrics are one thing, but how the beer tastes is another, right? All I'm saying is, according to the bjcp guidelines, you hit oatmeal stout nail on the head.
Anyway, I think maris otter proponents would say that you brewed a good oatmeal stout by the guidelines in this video, and used maris otter, so that probably helped. But is the recipe written down correct and the comment about maris otter incorrect? Maybe you did brew this stout without it and it didn't matter. Either way, this "house stout" recipe is the one I would try with and without fancy maris otter. You guys seemed to really like that beer, so it should be easy enough to replace one ingredient and see what your reaction is.
And for us at home, we can see that it was a recipe you really nailed in terms of abv, fg, and ibu. Since we can't try the beer, this at least gives us an idea that those super basic qualifiers of the style are on point. I do find it fascinating that both your reaction to the beer in the video AND the metrics suggest you nailed it.
Thanks for this ,probably saved me £10 on a 25kg bag of MO
I like to use rahr pale ale malt over rarhr 2 row. In my experience the color is extremely noticeable. The flavor is just a bit richer and has a much fuller feel in my opinion. I have honestly never used marris otter but I believe rahr pale ale would be a better choice to stand against marris otter. The pale ale I'd around 3 lov so much closer also. My go to summer crusher is 85% rarh pale ale 10% weyerman munich 1 and 5% wheat malt. I just use whatever hop I'm in the mood for and keep a 40-50 bu/gu ratio. Usually gives a nice 6ish srm deep gold beer.
Sounds perfect! Thanks for the comment. Cheers! -Mike
Doesn't feel right without the intro music
Working on something different. Cheers! -Mike
Welp... Time to build the English side by side the see if it's the intangibles that make the diff...back ones variants can make quite the difference ..(he says not prepared to do the side by side immediately) hahs
Needs to be done for sure. I'll be circling back to this again. Cheers! -Mike
Great video, I agree with the mentality that (especially just being at home for own consumption and not a competition for example) American base malt could be used in English beers, and pale ale may even be closer than just pale malt. I use pilsner as my general base for nearly everything including stouts unless I'm targeting something specific or going for a competition. I also use cheap dry yeast 90% off the time because the beer is still great with that but I'll switch to liquid for a competition.
And in the end its about the final product and how much you enjoy it, not the process or what someone else says it should be. Cheers! -Mike
niceee 🍻
Back at you. Cheers! -Mike
Those doggone Germans! LOL
Lets just say the German yeast was an interesting arbiter between these two beers. Cheers! -Mike
Brew it with an English strain of yeast.