to me it's all about ergonomics. The '74 Mark VI I was lucky enough to play on in high school had the best ergonomics of anything out there. The Conn is second best, and less than half the price, which is why it's what I've played on since. If I could have the repair person detach and raise the thumb rest by a half inch or more, it would probably help my wrist a lot...
Wendy Scher I removed the original thumbrest off my Mark VI soprano and put a new metal thumbrest on because the original thumbrest killed my thumb and wrist. I did recently notice that Steve Goodson sells his after market thumbrests that you can install yourself. I agree the Selmer has much better ergonomics of the 3.
To me honestly the Mark VI is the most balanced overall. I thought I liked the Martin but the Mark VI has a combination of the roundness of the Conn 12M and the bite of the Martin with slightly more overtones and more focused.
The Martin had a nice thick rich tone all the way through the registers. I have a 1932-1934 Beuscher True Tone. I love it! Its a monster ergonomically but the tone is sweet and mellow yet has a growl in low end. People have told me it sound like a cello.
I don't think it does. I owned all three of these horns at the same time, and I held onto my 12M for longer than I might have because it's reputation. But a low Bb Mk. VI has a comparable low end and a lot of better features like ergos and intonation. you can overcome those shortcomings in a 12M, but the Mk.VI is more of a pleasure to play. But you're right, monster players used 12Ms, but they were available decades before the Mk. VI.
really appreciate your work,sir. I am sure that I need to get a bari for fun since I didn't have enough practice before being a student who studys music as major
I've owned a mark VI bari. I've owned a Martin tenor, always needed adjustments.Your Selmer sounds best. I've owned 3 Selmer Mark VI tenors, all different.
Thanks for the comparison. I recently purchased a Martin 1955 Bari and I love it. Not sure about the berg as the best mouthpiece for the Martin. I use an Otto link metal that sounds so nice. I picked up a 2nd hand JJ jet 7 and it plays really well also with a lot of bite and more projection. But I think the link is a nicer match and has better intonation, maybe with the larger chamber. I think Jody plays a Martin comm 3 with the jet in his mouthpiece promo video. They are all great sounding instruments. Ergonomically I don’t find the Martin too bad either. I have it set up light and it goes great. Cheers.
I owned a "The Martin" for a while - loved the sound but the intonation was too much work. I prefer that sound of the 3 your're demoing here as well. I've tried vintage Selmer baris (VIs and SBAs) and they always sound too much like bassoons to me as yours does here. Great demo - thanks for taking the time and playing the same lines making the comparison easier.
Yup, in fact I did a similar video demoing a dozen different bari mouthpieces. All these horns sound fine and I'd agree with the other poster that the Selmer has a sort of more centered or refined sound. I didn't mean it to be so much of a critique as an observation but that's my fault for not wording my response very well - my bad there. For me, sound-wise I would have stuck with the Martin myself when I had it if I could have played it in tune between D2 - G2. Now I have a Yani B992 and a Taiwanese Low Bb bari sold by Phil Barone. There are things I like and dislike about both of these as well - nothing is perfect right. BTW - if I were to choose between the 3 you demoed I'd choose the Selmer under most circumstances as well. I'd work with different mouthpieces, reeds, and maybe even necks to get closer to my preferred sound and meanwhile the keywork and intonation on the VI in my experience are superior and would be easier for me to deal with. So I can't fault you for playing one especially when you have one in such nice original condition as there aren't many around like that anymore.
I appreciate your thoughtful comments! The selmer mark VI is definitely easier to play and more refined. I would be happy to perform on any of them. I watched your mouthpiece video. I thought it was very good and informative. Very ambitious having 12 mouthpieces all lined up and warmed up ready to go! Thanks :-)
Thanks - finding reeds that would play okay on all those different pieces took quite a while. I think mostly I proved something I already knew; I can sound really mediocre no matter what mouthpiece I play. The pieces certainly feel different to me and sound different to me from behind the horn. However, listening to them out front, it's really hard to justify a $600+ mouthpiece for anyone who isn't a near artist-level player.
I have a Martin as well - plays and sounds fine, except that the middle F (the one on the top line of the staff) is so sharp that I have to close the D key to force it into tune.
The Selmer sounds smoother, I would guess due to it's ergonomics.....a more centered sound...The Conn is bright compared to the Martin ,which has a bit darker tone....I have. "The Martin " bari 1958, full sound,but slightly out of tune.....thanks for the compo.
I have owned all of these baris simultaneously. The Mk. VI ergos are worth the price of admission, plus the intonation is better and it's more balanced. Of course great players can make them all sound terrific. The Committee III bari might actually be the best sounding IMO, but it was never adopted by famous bari players as was the 12M. They also didn't make a ton of the Martins, and the soft soldered tone holes on a long body tube are a vulnerability especially if it was an abused school horn in a past life. The 12M was around for a long time and played by Mulligan and his ilk, but the ergos are just not great. If you really want low end, try the True Tone with it's massive bell. Ergos are even worse / intolerable. The Mk. VI keyed to low Bb is my favorite.
I agree with everything you say. Glad you like my personal choice in a bari sax (the Selmer mark vi) 🙂 Opinions vary though as you can see by reading all the comments. I've played several Buescher bari saxes too and I think they have great sound too. Thanks for your comment 🙂
This is so Great ! Cool Demo ! Thanks ! We need to talk someday very soon - I've been playing Alto and Tenor for 20 +Years and just got me first Bari, a Keilwerth H.Couf Superba 1, crica 1975, No Jive, and it is AWESOME and Tough Like a 12-Point Buck Man. (I see your setup = Cool.) I would like to consult you as a potential "Cyber-Repair Tech" if I cannot get to my local Guy - He is way busy with "School Horn Season", etc.. p.s. I'm playing a Drake custom .15 and although a bit of work, it makes such great tones!
Sax Man thanks for the comment. I love your Couf Superba. There’s a local school that has one that I have taken care of for several years. I am available for repairs. I’m in the walla walla , Washington area. I’m Glad to help you if you want.
Hey SaxMan , a very pleasant good day. Your in the repair biz and I’d like to talk to a serious repairman about what to do with my 56 Conn Lady Baritone. Getback
Thank you. Here’s an article I found for you. There are a lot of saxophones out there that are made by major manufacturers but have “different stencil names “. www.saxgourmet.com/saxophone-stencil-makers/
Thanks for posting! I'm a longtime Mark VI tenor player. I'm bari shopping, and looking at the earlier Transitional as well as your vintage of Conn. I thought the Mark VI palm keys were fuller; all horns sound great. It also sounded like the bore of the Mark VI was bigger. I did play Mark VI bari in college, with Dizzy - and also the famous Moanin' part. Any change you are selling your Conn in November 2018? Thanks, Jeff (yep, Sonny Rollins with my in my Avatar pic).
@@macougar6 I play tested virtually similar 12M and Mark VI baris to yours in the last few days (no Martin, though...). I video taped myself as well. My impressions are A. Easier to play bop on the Mark VI (I find the left thumb button and rest on the 12M WAY to small - uncomfortable!); B. The 12M appears to require / take more air (your thoughts on that issue?); C. I think the 12M has a bigger sound (and I think I prefer it - and I'm a Mark VI tenor player of 45 years); D. Even though the Berg mpc (same as yours, but a 130 tip) is SUPPOSED to result in a mismatch on the 12M, causing intonation problems (Music Medic actually markets a 12.5 neck to fix this - it's longer), I didn't find any - both with a piano and a strobe); E. I had trouble moving between octaves on the 12M (not on the Mark VI at all). Maybe that's where the mpc mismatch really is. Your thoughts, please, especially on "B" and "E". Thanks again! Too bad you sold your 12M.... Now I don't know which horn to buy (or something else - good and bad things about both).
@@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton Thanks for your thoughts. I think you will have to decide what is best for you. My opinion is the mark VI is best for me. I think the Mark vi is more refined and better and easier to play faster and more precise than the Conn and the Martin. That being said, I like the punchy response of the Conn and the full sound of the Martin. Like I said in the video I would be happy to perform on any of the 3 but I think I would probably play more accurately and easier on the Mark VI. I don't notice any significant intonation problems on the 12M but my opinion has always been that no saxophone plays in tune and the player has to play it in tune. I've even been to a Curt Altarac (Music Medic) saxophone repair clinic and talked to him about his methods to fix saxophone intonation. I still say that you will never manufacture an in tune saxophone and you have to play your sax in tune just like a singer controls their own vocal chords to sing in tune. There are other great brands of saxophones out there too. I love Yamahas too and I think Yamahas are very refined and easy to play. I can't answer your question about the 12M taking more air or having trouble changing octaves because I haven't played it in over a year.
@@macougar6 Thanks for the reply, maccougar6! I like the Mark VI bari as well; the one I played was a virtual twin to my Mark VI tenor and I do prefer that keybed. The left thumb button and key on the Conn 12M is quite small, and I have large hands. I agree that saxophones are inherently out of tune. I didn't notice that the Conn I play tested was out of tune, but Music Medic does sell their "12.5" neck to deal with the intonation problems of 12Ms that have it with non large chambered mouthpieces. I tried a Selmer rubber "G" on the Conn, and the octave switch was easier. Then, I put my TENOR mouthpiece on it (a Francois Louis .135 tip opening), using my current tenor reed, and the Conn absolutely roared! No problems at all with octaves. Of course, now it WAS out of tune, since the neck cork was too big for the FL tenor piece. Go figure... I'll have to try a Martin if possible. Thanks again! Best, Jeff
? got it from a garage sale and its all worn out. they didnt tell me but i can prob. go back and ask them what it was. They said "A bari sax 1956 model for 184 bucks" and tnats all
@@aidanschannel6510 NYC :) they're probably the most common brand of vintage horns... but there's only a handful of woodwind shops, so they all know each other...
@@macougar6 Honestly the Mark VI is the most balanced overall. I thought I liked the Martin but the Mark VI has a combination over the roundness of the Gerry Mulligan Conn 12M and the bite of the Martin with slightly more overtones and more focused.
Conn 12M hands down. The Martin has a nice and robust sound but it has really poor intonation and I can tell that you’re having a terribly hard time keeping control when crossing from the C to the 4th line D. The Selmer has a nice sound in the mid register but I find the palm key notes to be quite shrill and the lower register to be pretty dead and droning. You had the best and most complex sound on the Conn, sort of like a fine brandy.
Martin bari's definitely need a larger chambered mouthpiece or the second octave will be sharp. The Berg is just not large enough. Bit of a conundrum, as Martins are dark horns, that can sound great with a piece with some sizzle. But Ron at RPC can make a Martin specific piece with enough of a baffle to still get some edge, while giving a Martin friendly overall chamber size. He made one for me, it's great.
the Martin and the conn 12m are my favorite baritone saxophones
Thank you my utube buddy.
I look forward to your intelligent revues and comments.
Richard
to me it's all about ergonomics. The '74 Mark VI I was lucky enough to play on in high school had the best ergonomics of anything out there. The Conn is second best, and less than half the price, which is why it's what I've played on since. If I could have the repair person detach and raise the thumb rest by a half inch or more, it would probably help my wrist a lot...
Wendy Scher I removed the original thumbrest off my Mark VI soprano and put a new metal thumbrest on because the original thumbrest killed my thumb and wrist. I did recently notice that Steve Goodson sells his after market thumbrests that you can install yourself. I agree the Selmer has much better ergonomics of the 3.
Yup.
Huge difference in the sound. Really interesting!
love the napbirt sticker ;) I'm currently restoring a 12M myself!
Thanks for the video, I'm stuck between, the conn and selmer
To me honestly the Mark VI is the most balanced overall. I thought I liked the Martin but the Mark VI has a combination of the roundness of the Conn 12M and the bite of the Martin with slightly more overtones and more focused.
The Martin had a nice thick rich tone all the way through the registers. I have a 1932-1934 Beuscher True Tone. I love it! Its a monster ergonomically but the tone is sweet and mellow yet has a growl in low end. People have told me it sound like a cello.
This tells you why so many great bari players have chosen the 12M over the decades. It blows away the other two.
I don't think it does. I owned all three of these horns at the same time, and I held onto my 12M for longer than I might have because it's reputation. But a low Bb Mk. VI has a comparable low end and a lot of better features like ergos and intonation. you can overcome those shortcomings in a 12M, but the Mk.VI is more of a pleasure to play. But you're right, monster players used 12Ms, but they were available decades before the Mk. VI.
Nice work sire, for me the Mk6 has it, the 12M a close second
The Conn x2! Yeah, the Conn would be what'd play if I were playing funk or ska or something.
really appreciate your work,sir. I am sure that I need to get a bari for fun since I didn't have enough practice before being a student who studys music as major
I've owned a mark VI bari. I've owned a Martin tenor, always needed adjustments.Your Selmer sounds best. I've owned 3 Selmer Mark VI tenors, all different.
Thanks for the comparison. I recently purchased a Martin 1955 Bari and I love it. Not sure about the berg as the best mouthpiece for the Martin. I use an Otto link metal that sounds so nice. I picked up a 2nd hand JJ jet 7 and it plays really well also with a lot of bite and more projection. But I think the link is a nicer match and has better intonation, maybe with the larger chamber. I think Jody plays a Martin comm 3 with the jet in his mouthpiece promo video. They are all great sounding instruments. Ergonomically I don’t find the Martin too bad either. I have it set up light and it goes great.
Cheers.
I owned a "The Martin" for a while - loved the sound but the intonation was too much work. I prefer that sound of the 3 your're demoing here as well. I've tried vintage Selmer baris (VIs and SBAs) and they always sound too much like bassoons to me as yours does here. Great demo - thanks for taking the time and playing the same lines making the comparison easier.
You're welcome. Thanks for the critique :-) I'm sure you know that you can dramatically change the sound by using different mouthpieces.
Yup, in fact I did a similar video demoing a dozen different bari mouthpieces. All these horns sound fine and I'd agree with the other poster that the Selmer has a sort of more centered or refined sound. I didn't mean it to be so much of a critique as an observation but that's my fault for not wording my response very well - my bad there. For me, sound-wise I would have stuck with the Martin myself when I had it if I could have played it in tune between D2 - G2. Now I have a Yani B992 and a Taiwanese Low Bb bari sold by Phil Barone. There are things I like and dislike about both of these as well - nothing is perfect right.
BTW - if I were to choose between the 3 you demoed I'd choose the Selmer under most circumstances as well. I'd work with different mouthpieces, reeds, and maybe even necks to get closer to my preferred sound and meanwhile the keywork and intonation on the VI in my experience are superior and would be easier for me to deal with. So I can't fault you for playing one especially when you have one in such nice original condition as there aren't many around like that anymore.
I appreciate your thoughtful comments! The selmer mark VI is definitely easier to play and more refined. I would be happy to perform on any of them. I watched your mouthpiece video. I thought it was very good and informative. Very ambitious having 12 mouthpieces all lined up and warmed up ready to go! Thanks :-)
Thanks - finding reeds that would play okay on all those different pieces took quite a while. I think mostly I proved something I already knew; I can sound really mediocre no matter what mouthpiece I play. The pieces certainly feel different to me and sound different to me from behind the horn. However, listening to them out front, it's really hard to justify a $600+ mouthpiece for anyone who isn't a near artist-level player.
I have a Martin as well - plays and sounds fine, except that the middle F (the one on the top line of the staff) is so sharp that I have to close the D key to force it into tune.
Conn 12M
The Selmer sounds smoother, I would guess due to it's ergonomics.....a more centered sound...The Conn is bright compared to the Martin ,which has a bit darker tone....I have. "The Martin " bari 1958, full sound,but slightly out of tune.....thanks for the compo.
You're welcome. Thanks for your input :-)
I would say overall, mark6 and Conn12M!
Best Wishes,
Richard
I play a groove old Beuscher!
I have owned all of these baris simultaneously. The Mk. VI ergos are worth the price of admission, plus the intonation is better and it's more balanced. Of course great players can make them all sound terrific. The Committee III bari might actually be the best sounding IMO, but it was never adopted by famous bari players as was the 12M. They also didn't make a ton of the Martins, and the soft soldered tone holes on a long body tube are a vulnerability especially if it was an abused school horn in a past life. The 12M was around for a long time and played by Mulligan and his ilk, but the ergos are just not great. If you really want low end, try the True Tone with it's massive bell. Ergos are even worse / intolerable. The Mk. VI keyed to low Bb is my favorite.
Or a Buescher Big B like Steve Berlin of Los Lobos. He gets a ton of power out of his.
I agree with everything you say. Glad you like my personal choice in a bari sax (the Selmer mark vi) 🙂 Opinions vary though as you can see by reading all the comments. I've played several Buescher bari saxes too and I think they have great sound too. Thanks for your comment 🙂
This is so Great ! Cool Demo ! Thanks ! We need to talk someday very soon - I've been playing Alto and Tenor for 20 +Years and just got me first Bari, a Keilwerth H.Couf Superba 1, crica 1975, No Jive, and it is AWESOME and Tough Like a 12-Point Buck Man. (I see your setup = Cool.) I would like to consult you as a potential "Cyber-Repair Tech" if I cannot get to my local Guy - He is way busy with "School Horn Season", etc.. p.s. I'm playing a Drake custom .15 and although a bit of work, it makes such great tones!
Sax Man thanks for the comment. I love your Couf Superba. There’s a local school that has one that I have taken care of for several years. I am available for repairs. I’m in the walla walla , Washington area. I’m Glad to help you if you want.
Hey SaxMan , a very pleasant good day.
Your in the repair biz and I’d like to talk to a serious repairman about what to do with my 56 Conn Lady Baritone. Getback
Very good demo! You play well.
Best Wishes,
Richard
PS I heave an old Buescher stamped as a Commodore. If you would, maybe some explanation?
Thank you. Here’s an article I found for you. There are a lot of saxophones out there that are made by major manufacturers but have “different stencil names “. www.saxgourmet.com/saxophone-stencil-makers/
Thanks!
If this were a blind test, I wonder if anyone would be able to tell the difference!
Nice👍
i play on the conn 12m
Thanks for posting! I'm a longtime Mark VI tenor player. I'm bari shopping, and looking at the earlier Transitional as well as your vintage of Conn. I thought the Mark VI palm keys were fuller; all horns sound great. It also sounded like the bore of the Mark VI was bigger. I did play Mark VI bari in college, with Dizzy - and also the famous Moanin' part. Any change you are selling your Conn in November 2018? Thanks, Jeff (yep, Sonny Rollins with my in my Avatar pic).
Hi jeff, Thanks for your comments. Sorry to say I sold that conn last summer on Ebay. Always glad to hear people good comments. :-)
@@macougar6 I play tested virtually similar 12M and Mark VI baris to yours in the last few days (no Martin, though...). I video taped myself as well. My impressions are A. Easier to play bop on the Mark VI (I find the left thumb button and rest on the 12M WAY to small - uncomfortable!); B. The 12M appears to require / take more air (your thoughts on that issue?); C. I think the 12M has a bigger sound (and I think I prefer it - and I'm a Mark VI tenor player of 45 years); D. Even though the Berg mpc (same as yours, but a 130 tip) is SUPPOSED to result in a mismatch on the 12M, causing intonation problems (Music Medic actually markets a 12.5 neck to fix this - it's longer), I didn't find any - both with a piano and a strobe); E. I had trouble moving between octaves on the 12M (not on the Mark VI at all). Maybe that's where the mpc mismatch really is. Your thoughts, please, especially on "B" and "E". Thanks again! Too bad you sold your 12M.... Now I don't know which horn to buy (or something else - good and bad things about both).
@@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton Thanks for your thoughts. I think you will have to decide what is best for you. My opinion is the mark VI is best for me. I think the Mark vi is more refined and better and easier to play faster and more precise than the Conn and the Martin. That being said, I like the punchy response of the Conn and the full sound of the Martin. Like I said in the video I would be happy to perform on any of the 3 but I think I would probably play more accurately and easier on the Mark VI. I don't notice any significant intonation problems on the 12M but my opinion has always been that no saxophone plays in tune and the player has to play it in tune. I've even been to a Curt Altarac (Music Medic) saxophone repair clinic and talked to him about his methods to fix saxophone intonation. I still say that you will never manufacture an in tune saxophone and you have to play your sax in tune just like a singer controls their own vocal chords to sing in tune. There are other great brands of saxophones out there too. I love Yamahas too and I think Yamahas are very refined and easy to play. I can't answer your question about the 12M taking more air or having trouble changing octaves because I haven't played it in over a year.
@@macougar6 Thanks for the reply, maccougar6! I like the Mark VI bari as well; the one I played was a virtual twin to my Mark VI tenor and I do prefer that keybed. The left thumb button and key on the Conn 12M is quite small, and I have large hands. I agree that saxophones are inherently out of tune. I didn't notice that the Conn I play tested was out of tune, but Music Medic does sell their "12.5" neck to deal with the intonation problems of 12Ms that have it with non large chambered mouthpieces. I tried a Selmer rubber "G" on the Conn, and the octave switch was easier. Then, I put my TENOR mouthpiece on it (a Francois Louis .135 tip opening), using my current tenor reed, and the Conn absolutely roared! No problems at all with octaves. Of course, now it WAS out of tune, since the neck cork was too big for the FL tenor piece. Go figure... I'll have to try a Martin if possible. Thanks again! Best, Jeff
Eu uso um desse únicamente pra louvar a Deus
For what I heard... my favorites:
1. Martin
2. Selmer
3. Conn
WUT? The Conn was clearly the best. It blew the other two away. That's why all the great bari players played Conn.
@@jrbeckman2194 No problem man... matter of taste...
when i bought m bari sax, it didnt have a neck. do you have any suggestions on where to buy a vintage neck?
Maybe Ebay. What kind of a Bari sax is it? I know a place that manufactures vintage necks.
? got it from a garage sale and its all worn out. they didnt tell me but i can prob. go back and ask them what it was. They said "A bari sax 1956 model for 184 bucks" and tnats all
Check eBay
MusicMedic.com has replacement bari necks if you are still looking for one
Any ideas of good places to buy conn baritones? I like conns, but not eBay.
Go to a shop and see if they know anyone selling
@@aidanschannel6510 NYC :) they're probably the most common brand of vintage horns... but there's only a handful of woodwind shops, so they all know each other...
1 Selmer
2 Conn
7 Martin
They sound pretty much the same lol
Thanks for your comment . :-)
@@macougar6 Honestly the Mark VI is the most balanced overall. I thought I liked the Martin but the Mark VI has a combination over the roundness of the Gerry Mulligan Conn 12M and the bite of the Martin with slightly more overtones and more focused.
Oof no low A...
Conn 12M hands down. The Martin has a nice and robust sound but it has really poor intonation and I can tell that you’re having a terribly hard time keeping control when crossing from the C to the 4th line D. The Selmer has a nice sound in the mid register but I find the palm key notes to be quite shrill and the lower register to be pretty dead and droning. You had the best and most complex sound on the Conn, sort of like a fine brandy.
Thank you . I appreciate your critique. I do like the sound of the Conn a lot too :-)
Martin bari's definitely need a larger chambered mouthpiece or the second octave will be sharp. The Berg is just not large enough. Bit of a conundrum, as Martins are dark horns, that can sound great with a piece with some sizzle. But Ron at RPC can make a Martin specific piece with enough of a baffle to still get some edge, while giving a Martin friendly overall chamber size. He made one for me, it's great.
@@madmarsupial Not anymore. RIP. The Conn clearly won this shootout.