The East vs West is just too restrictive to make sense. In Czechia, everybody will tell you we're "central Europe". I'm fairly confident the Greeks would identify as "south Europeans". The East vs West is a relict of the Cold War and doesn't work anymore.
Yeah something like that, but it was interesting to see the results for "middle Europe". Especially for someone from Czechia, cause Czechia in this is interesting case. I was also curious about Poland. And my first thought was i would maybe start drawing a line between Czech and Slovak althou it seperates us and it's questionable :) But that is what was this video about.
If you look at the big oriental influence in the culture of Greece (as in Bulgaria and, partly, Romania, then you realise it is (also) Eastern. Of course, the 40+ years on the "western" part of the iron curtain did have its impact.
@@TheCyricson Greek culture varies by location, social class, family history and many other factors. People forget that we Greeks have lived in multiethnic countries that spanned most of the eastern mediterranean ever since the peninsula was conquered by the romans. Roman empire then eastern Roman then Byzantine then Ottoman, add Alexander the greats conquests that established links all the way to india and the current European Union, we are bound to have influences by our neighborhood, a neighborhood that we defined. Its not something that makes us less Greek, not at all, its a major benefit, after all we are a seafaring nation since antiquity, we have understood that "Μέγα το της Θαλάσσης κράτος" (Great is the power of the sea/Great states are those who control the sea) (Θουκυδίδης, ιστοριών Α, 143), and if you control the Mediterranean (Like we did, in many many eras) you will get influensed by it and you will be better off.
The religiosity divide seems much more north/south than east/west to me. EDIT: I'm talking about degree of religiosity, not Catholic & Protestant vs Orthodox.
But if you consider the denomination is more east/west which makes more sense since more/less religious doesn't mean much if you don't consider what religion you are actually looking at.
@@pierren___ Austria is sometimes called the Balkan's northernmost country. France can be considered southern because it is on the mediteranean, all the other romance speaking countries are to the south and French Guyana is considered an integral part of mainland France so if you'd take the average point it would end up way more southern than you'd expect.
It would be interesting to see where people that voted originate from too. I can imagine a non-European person voting more based on geography instead of 'a feeling'. Also, I always thought the East/West divide was based on former Soviet countries. This also lines up pretty well with your data and makes more sense to me. It explains why people think of Finland and Greece as borderline or West.
Turkey was not voted west though. I would say Orthodox/Islam background also has a role. And Greece is considered west by some because they think ancient Greece was the origin of Western civilization.
I think the location of the former Iron Curtain does play the biggest role, but culture and history can shift that quite significantly. Estonia and Czechia were both on the east of the Iron Curtain, but Estonia comes across to most people who know anything about it as a Scandinavian country that's just ended up on the wrong side of the Baltic Sea (which is also more or less how Estonia likes to portray itself), and whenever Estonia makes the news in other parts of Europe, it is almost invariably in a positive light, and to do with their tech-based economy, which are things people associate more with Western Europe. Czechia probably has its long historical connection to Austria, and the popularity of Prague as a very Western-looking tourist destination, to thank for being considered more Western than its West Slavic counterparts in Poland and Slovakia. It is also interesting that Germany was considered by over 99% of people to be Western European, despite a significant chunk of it, including the immediate surroundings of the country's capital, having been east of the Iron Curtain. Of course modern Germany is dominated by former West German politics and business, but I would have nonetheless expected Germany to score lower than France, Britain or the Low Countries.
Here in the United States, where I studied world geography in middle school, we were taught that Greece was part of Western Europe despite it's location. This was a holdover from Cold War geopolitics, as Greece was one of the only countries in the east that was not communist. Since Ancient Greece Was the birthplace of democracy and Western civilization, there is a tendency of western countries to want to associate it among themselves.
The East/West divide WAS Cold-War Geopolitics and still is....Otherwise no-one would argue that Czechia, Croatia and Slovenia are Eastern Europe as all are clearly in the Western half of the Continent. The Ukraine and Belarus are actually across the mid-point of Europe NOT Czechia! - People forget that despite most of Russia being in Asia the European part still covers a huge portion of the European Continent!
If the question is only east/west, its reallt a question of wasavapact. It really makes no sense not calling finland north. But even talking wasava pact there is a few surprices. Turkey is and for a long time been a nato member. 1/4 of germany was wasava pact. Finland and Sweden was neither. Most surpricingly yougoslavia was neither despite being a communist country... well.. kind of communist with some fashist parts. Also while most people know that itally was fashist untill 1945, most people don't know that greece, spain and Portugal was fashist untill 1974/75. Making this really quite a lot more complicated. The history we read in school makes the student belive that fahsism was extermianted in Europe in 1945. This was far from true. While it might be true that the last 3 countries was somewhat of "fashist light" and say yougoslavia was somewhat of "communist light"
I'm surprised that there was no mention of the USSR and Yugoslavia - as far as perceptions of what's 'west' and what's east, I would have thought it played a pretty big role. Edit: Warsaw pact/Iron Curtain, not USSR
@@account-369 atleast in America we always treated Yugoslavia as any other communist country, just part of the eastern bloc. I know it’s more complicated with then being far more neutral but most Americans probably said every former communist country was eastern.
I'd guess most of the audience is too young to have experienced the Cold War first hand so it plays less of a role. Turkey today for example is primarily seen as bad at democracy, not as an ally against the Russians.
The line you ended up drawing is quite close to the line that divided the Western and Eastern blocs during the Cold War, if you count democratic, non-aligned countries such as Sweden as 'Western' and non-Soviet-aligned Yugoslavia and Albania as 'Eastern', with the exception that i) East Germany is part of Germany and in the West here, but was a separate country and aligned with the East during the Cold War. ii) Greece and Turkey are in the East here, but were aligned with the West during the Cold War.
Not exactly. Finland didn't necessarily side with the Soviets, but their relationship was definitely closer than with the west. Turkey also sided with the west, joining NATO at the same time as Greece. Similar with Cyprus too.
It's curious to me, that Germany was voted in as almost unanimously "Western" by your audience, since Germany itself likes to highlight its situation as a bridge between East and West... Not too far-fetched, considering the whole split during the Cold War. But, sure, the country is also firmly aligned with the EU and NATO and its greatest foreign policy partners are France, the US and so on. So I can see why we're percieved as purely Western.
The Czech Republic has a lot of historical, cultural and mindset similarities with both Eastern and Western Europe, so we in the Czech Republic simply say that we are Central Europe.
As a Western European who has been to the Czech Republic more times than I can count and can speak the language, I would say this: Prague is most definitely Central and the whole of Bohemia with the exception of some small villages feels 'central european'. Moravia-Silesian regions is where I would say with the exception of Brno, has a distinctly Easern European culture, especially the villages in which you can experience a really rich traditionally 'slavic' lifestyle. Geographically, it is definitely a Central State, and culturally, I think it has a slight Central bias, but there is a definite Eastern European population, which I do not see as a negative.
Here in Czechia calling us 'Eastern Europe' is simply taken as an insult. We are and have always been Central European. The binary split of Europe to 'East' and 'West' is simply an imposition of defining factor of extremely short period of European history (1945-1989). To countries that see themselves as 'Central European' it just feels somebody still wants to put them back to an era defined by the communism and soviet dominance out of pure intellectual laziness
Amen my brother (or sister). I consider old Visegrad countries as Central European and my own country Finland as Nordic, and both culturally "western".
From intuition, I would have put the devide along the cold war lines. But Czechia is the country among them who "feels" most western. So central Europe certainly makes the most sense
And especially considering the fact that those 40 years of Soviet era divided Europe into East and West one way but historically (before Soviets) the divide was somewhere else. That's especially true for Czechia and Slovakia...
@@gsvick But it was more or less forced to ally with them. As a eastern European it was somewhat possible to travel to Yugoslavia, but almost impossible to cross its western borders, that's were you felt the iron curtain. Though you probably would not have been shot when trying to cross the green boarder.
In a way, Portugal is very far east. If you travel east from Spain through Europe, Asia, the Pacific, North America and all the way through the Atlantic, you will arrive at Portugal.
Portugal by many metrics like GDP and religiosity is eastern European. There's a whole subreddit dedicated to Portugal's similarities to eastern European nations
I can understand why you went for an East-West split to keep the survey simple, but a lot of countries in Europe see themselves as Central European. Russia is also missing in my opinion. Most of it’s population lives in the European part and Moscow is the most populous city in Europe.
Exactly. The creators of this video treated the big grey area on the right hand side of the map as Asia, even though that big part is the real Eastern Europe. Also, not sure how European Turkey is really (as most of the county falls on Asia)
@@nitosalt3142Turkey is a special case in my opinion, having ties to so many areas the country borders to making it also not easier by having the biggest City, Istanbul, in Europe. As in a geographical and political sense it is definitly "eastern europe" and Russia shouldve been included because the population is europe centered than rather asian, same like Turkey. Both countries are special in this topic, so there is no simple solution
I find it a bit weird how Russia isn't even included. Yea might be obviously eastern Europe, but countries like UK, France, spain, portugal ect. would also be obviously western and don't really need poll either. The European Russia might not be the largest area of the country, but despite of being much smaller than Asian Russia, they have about 3/4 of their population in Europe, arguably the most important area of the Russia, with capital and all in Europe.
Excluding Russia, but including Turkey was indeed weird on their part. Considering their cultures and most populous areas, you would expect the opposite to be the case: Russia being considered European, while Turkey being considered (Minor) Asian.
Which is exactly what I think skews the perception. People tend to think that Europe ends at the Russian border (which obviously makes a lot of European countries look more Eastern). But if you consider that giant chunk of Europe in Russia, people would realize that the East/West divide (strictly geographically speaking) would be shifted to the East. AND I also find it odd that there was no mention of Central Europe...
@@Domihork Geographically speaking only eastern European country is Russia (Maybe also Caucasus and Kazakhstan if you consider it European), not even Turkey, and the center of Europe would be in Ukraine
@@borisnikator7060 Geographically yes but otherwise no, Russia is a different entity than Europe. Which is also why the "tectonic zone" in Eastern Ukraine exists (without going into politics).
@@miroslavdusin4325 Besides geography, Russia is a cultural ancestor of Byzantine Empire so calling it not a Europe is a big stretch. Russia is not a crusader state. And faces the same threat as Byzantine. Actually 4th crusade is what the west is trying to do over and over again, not thinking about consequences.
@@borisnikator7060 Russia claims and wants to be looked at as descendant of Byzantine empire but as always propaganda and reality are far away from each other in Russia. In my view Russia is a mix of influences perhaps also some Byzantine. Especially the young and internationally connected ones identify themselves with Europe and I have absolutely no problem with that, my Russian colleagues are great people, but the majority is rather passive and just now we can see live how strongly they support Hitler's reincarnation.
As a Finnish person I have thought about this. Geographically Finland is certainly in East Europe but when it comes to Finland's society and culture it's definetly more western so it's pretty hard to decide. It's easiest to say that Finland is nordic.
But there are also parts of our society and culture that are much more Eastern European compared to for example the other Nordic countries. I personally call us a Nordic-Eastern European. Which makes many Finns very angry
Just one quick not as one of the voters. When I chose religion as a dividing line between east and west, I was referring to Orthodox vs Catholic faith, not how religious a country is.
The further East you go, the narrower becomes the definition of "Eastern Europe". If you ask people in Lithuania or Poland, "Eastern Europe" is basically just Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.
Im Ukrainian and I can tell you that even my country we can split into two. Central European vs Eastern European using the old borders of Austria-Hungary. Culturally the two are different, despite sharing language and religion.
@@tayloryoung9803 No I would put Germany more with Western Europe. That said I cant really speak for Germans maybe they would divide their country too based on old iron curtain borders. But I have visited Dresden, Hamburg, and Munich and all felt very German and Western to me in general. Ive driven thru Czechia and their little towns and villages are almost identical to what we have in Western Ukraine, except they have much better quality roads.
@@yuriydee and western Ukraine which has links with Poland and the Asutrian EMpire of course looks more similar to czech rep than villages near kharkiv. Same could be said with Alsace and Britanny for france. No good answer exists but Central Europe vs West Europe seems also odd enough
@@yuriydee Yeah, same in Romania with Transylvania and parts of Moldova having been a part of Hungary or Austria-Hungary for a very long time, we don't even know how to lable ourselves. We have a lot in common with Central European countries, Balkanic countries, Eastern European countries and even Southern European countries, believe it or not (we even had Greek colonies, and our language is Romance/Latin). I personally always say that Romania is in Southeastern Europe, but even that's debatable, some say it's in Central Europe, but that's a bit of a stretch.
My experience, from working with colleagues from many European countries is that most regard beibg described at Eastern Europe to be an insult. Eastern Europe is considered to be less developed, less modern, than the West. For that reason, Eastern Europe always starts at least one country to the East of the speaker's home country. So to a German, it may include Poland, but to a Pole it definitely doesn't start until at least Belarus.
It often is used to relegate someone into the category of "worse european", pretty often by people claiming to be inclusive and progressive. Quite interesting phenomenon tbh.
In culture, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, the Baltic states, Finland and even most parts of Ukraine are clearly Western Europe, while Turkey has nothing in common with Europe. Maybe the question catholic/protestant formed culture vs. orthodox culture is a better indicator for Eastern and Western Europe?
You guys forgot Russia is in Europe... Then the geographic centre of the continent is evident... Also, perception of east vs west is strongly biased in the language, such as Poland is considered eastern Europe in the UK supermarkets.
Parts of Turkey are also geographically in Europe. It doesn't mean much, though. Russia is not and never has been a European country in terms of mentality and values. It has more in common with central Asian satrapies.
I'm more than a bit befuddled by the decision to exclude the elephant in the room, Russia, from Eastern Europe. Stranger still, you included nations like Turkey, which only has a small slice of Europe (Thrace), and Cyprus, which is geographically in Asia.
This is an Angloid geography lesson. First step, talk about drawing a line in Europe, and then suspiciously exclude the largest country in the continent, Russia, to make a sensible choice. Second step, suddenly add a few Middle Eastern countries to the map for no reason. That's how geography works, of course. Third step, ignore historical regions and oversimplify the map. Since they extended "Europe" all the way to eastern Turkey here, I was hoping they would add Syria, Iran, and Iraq to the map too, but I guess they missed out on that opportunity. Next time I guess.
@@xaverlustig3581 Most Cypriots _are_ ethnically Greek, with a minority Turkish population (while Turkey has some land in Europe, it is still debated whether or not they should be considered European or Middle Eastern, not just externally, but also internally), so you could definitely say the people were European, but in terms of geography, they are undeniably in Asia. Cyprus is literally part of the Levant, along with nations like Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel.
A version of this poll that doesn't just have East & West, but also has North, South, and Central (and Not Europe?) would be very interesting. With one version of the poll letting you only pick one category per country, and another version letting you put a country into more than one category (e.g. one might vote Germany as West, North, & Central). add that to the map vs no map variants and that's 4 new poll variants. Honestly, it'd be something I'd love to see a few universities across Europe do as a joint project.
Not Europe would likely end up lumping countries on the fringe of Europe but whose governments maintain anti-European foreign and national policies (ex. Turkey, Russia and Belarus)
It's not statistics, it's manipulation: 1. In this video, the map of Europe ends in Belarus and Ukraine, where in reality the border is at the Ural Mountains in Russia. There is also a part of Kazakhstan in Europe, while geographically Turkey is not in Europe. The map prepared in this way incorrectly shows the location of the countries of Central Europe. 2. I don't understand the LGBT question. What does this have to do with Western culture? The culture of the West is Latin civilization, including the same spelling and religion (Latin alphabet, Catholicism), while the East is Byzantine civilization (Orthodox, Greek and Cyrillic), but this film does not even pay attention to it. My country has over 1,000 years of history in which it has always belonged to the culture of the West. The exception is the times after World War II, when he was betrayed by the Western allies in Yalta and got into the so-called Eastern Bloc. These 40 years of communism were enough to be identified with the East today (1000 years vs 44 years). People in Europe still live in stereotypes and have very little knowledge of history, geography and geopolitics. They base all their knowledge on subjective films and propaganda information. In Poland, the nobility's democracy existed already in the 15th century. Currently, we have general elections every 4 years, people have much more freedom of speech than, for example, in Sweden, where comments on internet forums are censored or even blocked. Despite this, in this movie democracy in Poland is assessed at an average level. Why? Mayby… Is democracy when the government does only what Brussels or Berlin wants? Hypocrisy and propaganda like in the Soviet Union.
As a Canadian who grew up in the late stages of the Cold War (Reagan, Thatcher, Gorbachev era), I was taught Eastern Europe were Warsaw pact countries, while Western Europe was NATO countries with Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland thrown in (despite them being technically 3rd world nations). Turkey was not taught as a European country as its capital is in Asia.
Do you mean 3rd world as in neutral, or 3rd world as in underdeveloped ? Because if it’s in the second sense, that’s not true at all. Those three countries are among the most developed and richest on the continent and already were at the time.
@singingcat02 Throughout the cold War, the third world was neutral countries. Most of whom were woefully undeveloped, except for a few like I mentioned in my comment.
@@singingcat02 Third world counrties means the non-aligned countries in the cold war. Much of those nations were on the underdeveloped parts of the world and thus the association with low development probably started, even though many third world nations have more development than some first and second world contries.
@@ruzicas.5819 you were definitely eastern europe, even though Tito successfully withstood pressure from Stalin and could give yugoslavia it's own path in history , it was still a communism path and not a western path.
The main problem with this map is that there's no Central Europe label. Countries like Germany, Czechia, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Switzerland (leaving out Bosnia for it's delicate matter), they should all be considered Central Europe. They're neither on the west or east, and all of the countries are similar in fact how both eastern and western cultures clash over them, making them a mish-mash of both.
eastern part of Slovakia and Hungary are actually central Europe, look at the geographical map of European continent , parts of Kazakhstan is in Europe and also 1/4 of the Russian Federation is in Europe
@@stefanbog2495 Middle Europe basically was used to describe the Hapsburg Lands of the Austrian/Hungarian empire. So all the countries within the old borders would qualify. So even Lwiw/Lemberg qualifies as Middle Europe. The division betwen East and West was made, when the Roman Empire was split into East/Oriental and West/Occidental Empires. Here the line would be between Latin christian and Orthodox christian countries.
@@borisbrosowski6630 it is all in technicalities and depends on which "map" are we looking at, i was referring to Geographical location of countries not man made borders or splits between east and west
omitting central europe seems really strange to me. In my opinion there are a lot of countries that are not clearly west or east, Poland, Austria, Germany, Slovakia, ...
I guess one of the reasons why this works so bad-ish is probably because the North and South is neglected. I’ve never heard someone refer to Finland as “Eastern”, but just as Northern. Same for countries like Italy or Spain, people generally don’t refer to them as Western, but more as Southern
@@_blank-_ You do know that most of Austria's surface area is in fact occupied not by the Alps but by the Danube Valley, which has a climate comparable to northern Italy, right?
You gotta divide Europe into Western, Northern, Central, Southern, Eastern and Southeastern. All of those are fairly solid groupings and tell you a lot more about the country.
If we use 16 points if the compass and add ‘inner’ and ‘outer’ we can almost put every country in its own group: Ireland is in Outer West North West Europe, for example, and Serbia is Inner South East. Problem solved!
@@CartoTypeThose are rather unruly group names though. How about we give those groups names that are easier to remember? i.e. instead of saying "Inner South East", we say "Serbia" and instead of "Outer West North West Europe", we refer to that group as "Ireland". Why has no one come up with that idea before?!?
@@adongo577 Honestly, there are no more 'proper democracies". All got crooked recently. Its just probably that the author of the ranking they used had some bias towards some aspects of democracy and not the others.
As a neutral-minded Swiss and someone who rarely comments on RUclips videos, I feel compelled to make an effort on this one. The question is fundamentally flawed because Eastern Europe doesn't start where Western Europe stops, it's not a dichotomy. Central Europe is pretty well defined, encompassed between Switzerland & Germany in the west and Poland & Hungary in the east. It is our doubtless understanding (in school geography, the news, etc.) that we're not in Western Europe, and as I understand the Czech feel the same. We even have "Mitteleuropa" sports events with those countries. Asking random internet users to assign us to Eastern/Western has no use whatsoever, except for maybe some echo chamber / polarisation effect. Speaking of... we always smirk at news reporting in certain countries, pointing out how obvious their bias is. But then here's a video asking for European assignment, and it leaves out Russia. By our basic history education (maybe it's different in the UK...), Russia has been fully within Europe for the first few hundred years of its existence, has the vast majority of population in Europe nowadays, and is generally considered European except by some heavily biased ideologists. It's sad to see the casualness with which videos like this take on an extreme position.
I've found this channel to be educational some times but deeply biased against Russia. It's weird to see "intelectual level" sources like this acting so petty.
I’ve worked with many Russians and honestly, outside of sport & the EuroVision (which you’ll find the likes of Isreal, Turkey and the former soviet republics in etc.) not of them considered themselves European, not even a little bit. This surprised me given the the cultural & historical links but that was their opinion, which they assured me was common. The survey is flawed & reductive but it is interesting for perceptions, not least the difference between how residents and neighbours see themselves and each other.
The "simple" east-west might be the most common way of splitting Europe, but that doesn't make it the least ignorant one. The history and culture of Europe are way more complicated than to be able to put European countries into two boxes, regardless of the criteria of the two boxes. Similarly, where is the line between Southern Europe and Northern Europe? Well, we can tell for sure that the Mediterranean countries are Southern Europe and the Scandinavian countries (along with Finnland and the Baltics) are Northern Europe. But where to put all the other countries in between? Where is the exact North-South dividing line? I can't put the V4 countries neither to North/South nor to East/West boxes. We call ourselves Central Europeans. Our culture is distinct enough of the Nordic, the Mediterranean, the Russian, the Balkanic and the British culture, so that Central Europe is a region. For me putting Estonia, Albania and Czechia to the same box is just ridiculous. This whole east-west approach of Europe is based on ignorant cold war stereotypes and lacks the understanding of European history. Well, you can draw vertical lines on the map of Europe, it just doesn't make much more sense than an arbitrary horizontal line on the same map.
i consider the v4 as eastern european. those nations are much more culturally similar to the former ussr nations, and the east-west divide is basically "looks russian-doesn't look russian"
@@Ray_Vun But when you compare Russia with Czechia, for example (or any other V4 country for that matter) there are big differences in Culture, Wealth and History (except the last century)
@@TheTrueYes that's not what caused the western world to make the division. it's purely a xenophobic thing. they look and sound russian enough to be mistaken as russian, so they get shoved in the mix. eastern european is basically synonym with russian looking
@@Ray_Vun You have a point there. But because of the lack of knowledge abaut the history and culture of these countries they are always called eastern even when they are in many aspects more western. In addition this term is often used as an insult.
Interesting video. Im surprised to see that only 98% voted Portugal has as western country, when is in fact geographically is the most western country of all Europe. Btw, i have always considered Greece as a western country.
I think what you are missing here is that the "West-East" division goes right through central europe. I would generally agree with the division being between Poland and Germany and Austria and Czechia, but i also consider all 4 of them central european. In Germany and Austria we usually don't mind being lumped in with western europe, but the central european countries on the eastern side have a very complicated history with actual eastern Europe (which is Ukraine, Belarus and Russia), so they probably don't like the label for politcal/historical reasons.
Also es ist schon eine Beleidigung, irgendwas Deutsches mit sowas wie Polen oder Tschechien oder irgend etwas anderem slawischen irgendwo in Osteuropa in Verbindung zu bringen.
@@timokohler6631 ich finde es schon beleidigend und obszön mit Osteuropäern in irgendeine Art Beziehung gesetzt zu werden. Und die Mehrheit der Deutschen auch. Neueste Statistiken zeigen, dass Polen und Tschechien die unbeliebtesten Nachbarländer mit dem mit Abstand geringsten Ansehen sind.
since most people see "eastern europe" as "alligned with russia" what would be the point? :D and that is also why a lot of people in the east hate this east/west thing
Interestingly, what happened to Central Europe? I have always thought of Eastern Europe as those countries that had not been part of the western civilization - usually not using the Latin alphabet, usually not Roman Catholic or Protestant. Thus Germany, Poland, the Baltics, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic, and Slovakia are Central Europe.
Since the Angloid map-maker pushed subtle propaganda, and excluded Russia on this video on purpose, and for no reason at all, Central Europe doesn't exist anymore. Its just Eastern Europe now.
Most of these are pretty clearly Asian countries, especially Kazakhstan. And Russia is mostly in Asia and would obviously be 99.9% Eastern Europe so there is no point in including it.
Although most people cannot see this, Turkey remained in Europe for a long time. Until 100-200 years ago, there was a high Turkish population in the Balkans scattered around and most of the land was controlled by the Turks. One say they were neighboors with Austria at some point in time and they helped a lot to creation of Balkan culture. And it is still like that. Turkey still have lands and a large population in Europe.
I am from Romania, and yes I think there is a stigma about east Europe, is mostly associated with bad things, because of economic issue, social, post communism and so on .I also had this east Europe complex, but I do not give fuck anymore I am proud to be what I am, and things are going better year by year in every east European country.
Also from an austrian point of view most younger austrians (those that have no memory of the iron curtain) would put slovenia, czechia and maybe even croatia into the western half due to historical reasons (history that happened before 1914 and after 1991) Especially since 2007, when the clearly eastern countries of romania and bulgaria joined the EU many countries at austria's eastern border moved further "west" in our understanding. On the other side many conservative austrians also have problems associating with "the west", especially france, britian or even germany (the favour Visegrád, italy and switzerland), this is mostly because of political or (in case of italy) religious reasons.
Of course you would. That is maybe the way in the Eastern European countries. They avoid talking about Eastern and prefer to divide Europe into central, north and south. I get it. It's a matter of prestige as said in the video. In the West we still tend to divide Europe in classic terms taking into account history, economics, democracy and personal freedoms, West and East that is.
Yeah for good reason because for example Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Czechia and Hungary were always dealing on their own between eachother, and if you looknat history(HRE, Austrian Empire, Austria-Hungarx etc.) Culture and so on...
I love how many people forgot that Europe actually starts from The Ural Mountains not from the western Russian border. So if we were to draw a line that passes exactly through the middle of Europe it would fall in the Belarussian city of Vitebsk, thus many of the countries considered to be ''eastern" are geographically speaking in western Europe.
@@Kuolonen So when it comes to dividing countries into West and East in America, Asia, Africa we use geography. But in case of Europe we would not use this method? Why? Dividing it through other factors would not be usable. Cold war ended 30 years ago. Politically these countries are in totally different state now, also culturally (customs, food etc.), religion-wise, types of letters... they differ even from each orher vastly. If you think they are very similar to each other in these aspects you must be very uninformed about this region of Europe.
Not including " Mitteleuropa" is a big mistake. Many Poles,the Baltic Republics, Hungary,former Yugos,see themselves as MIDDLE European, not Eastern. 9:58
You were told right. Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia = Central Europe. All these places were part of the Holy Roman Empire (Germany + Italy, basically) for a thousand years. 50 years of communism can't undo that.
@@ramondamian5067 Sorry, but when exactly was Romania part of the Holy Roman Empire? Sure, you speak a Latin language, but I'm not sure that's a criterion.
For me living in European part of Russia it was quite intimidating that it wasn't even on the survey. I could understand that politically now Russia is very separated from Europe, generally by internal rhetoric of Russian establishment, but this seemed as ignorance of historical and cultural ties of Russia and Europe. Especially when other transcontinental country, Turkey, was on the list despite having less percentage of land geographically and population residing in Europeen part that Russia did. I can understand the reasons for non-including Russia on survey but at the end it seemed quite unlogical for me
Thing is, historically Russia has always been othered when it comes to Europe. Essentially the European Powers (France, Austro-Hungaria, Whatever the fuck Germany was calling itself that day, Britain, etc), for centuries, never really wanted to see Russia as one of them. So Russia in the mind of everyone from that region is not "European" despite geography having something else to say on the matter. So I am not too surprised that it's not on the survey - to this day Russia is some eastern invader or enemy that threatens Europe, just as it has always been portrayed for generations. The inclusion of Turkey is even more baffling too, I'll admit, since it very much shares the same perceptions in the minds of Europeans, so it's odd that it was included in this one.
@@JenxRodwell The Survey was made by a Brit... That plays a large role in this. Someone from Eastern, Central, Southern or Northern Europe might have a more nuanced view then people like him from Western Europe... Remember that Britain was a naval power. Byzantine, the Ottomans and Turkey all had more of a role at sea then Russia did and had more interaction with Britain.
You answered your question yourself - the reason is the political separation of Russian politics and the specific us vs them rhetoric. Also it is obviously eastern, not like it would have been a surprise to anyone. But Turkey does not seem like it belongs in the poll either tbh.
Another important factor that in my opinion would influence the results would be if you included Russia, which I don’t understand why wasn’t included..
I don't see how Russia would be a factor in any way. The vast majority of people would consider Russia the epitome of eastern Europe geographically, economically, socially and politically.
@@luiseduardogonzalezquiroz272 it whould make every nation exept russia seem more western geographycally so thats how it whould influence East west divide
@@luiseduardogonzalezquiroz272 cold war lol, the east west divide clearly follows the iron curtain, even in how finland and greece landing on the west side despite their geography because they avoided becoming communist during WW2
In my country (Poland) we say that we are Central Europe. In Czech Republic and Slovakia it would be same I guess because our mindset is other than in eastern europe. We want to live properly and develop. Hugs for our brothers from Czechia and Slovakia.
It's worth to mention that things like democracy or equality are important to us too, however we have different opinions about the details of these virtues in compare of western European friends. I can totally see some uninformed person from Sweden thinking we hunt gay people in Poland, which is insane. It's worth to point out that being gay was never a crime in a Slavic country (except Russia) unlike in the west.
@@marekkac7046 1918-1932 Homosexuality was criminal in Poland. It was criminal in CZ until 1962. In YUG it was criminal until 1998 with Serbia being the last one to abolish it. The list would go on. Why are you telling unqualified lies "being gay was never a crime in a slavic country".... man
@@borisbrosowski6630 First modern Polish criminal code was introduced in 1932 and according to these regulations homosexual relations were not a crime, which wasn't something obvious in Europe at that time. Until 1932 (from 1918 when Poland regained its independence) former regulations were in force, which had been imposed by German, Austrian and Russian law according to which homosexual intercourses were a crime. So it's true, that there was a time in Poland (at least in 20. century) when homosexuality was punished; however these laws were not introduced by Polish government, but by former occupiers' governments.
@@skkrawczyk Blah blah blah. So from 1918-1932 it was criminal to be homosexual in independent Poland, right? You instead wrote "that being gay was never a crime in a Slavic country ". That's obviously a lie (if you consider Poland being a slavic country, that is...;-)
There is a hungarian comedy movie called "Csinibaba", one of the scenes fits here. A group of people talking, one of them asks "Is Helsinki 'west'?". After a short discussion, the consensus was: "Helsinki is east-west in the north". :D
The problem of the west/east divide has also a "secret" problem. Where does Europe end? Because if Europe ends on the Russian border like you show then yeah this divide based on voters makes sense. But I think if you showed a map with the European border on the Ural Mountains then results may be different.
I had a French colleague who was repeatedly talking about his family's cooking traditions in "East Europe". Then we realized that he refers to 'East of France. West of Switzerland, or perhaps Western Austria to the farthest shot'. He was dead serious.
In Czechia the term "Eastern European" is borderline insulting. There is about as little political, cultural and economic connection to the real Eastern Europe as there is to the Western Europe. Central Europe is the only acceptable label here. Similar to how the Eastern-Western divide makes remarkably little sense in the Nordic Countries...
It's the affect of recent history and the Iron curtain. Shrugging of the V4 countries plus Slovenia and Croatia (started as Catholic aka culturally western kingdoms) when all are older than half of the ones voted here as western is laughable. Part of it is also that most of the patrons of the channel who voted are "westerners" as well. Pay it no mind, it's ignorance with which we have to live with for the foreseeable future. A lot of disaster tourists come here and are surprised that these countries aren't the shit holes they thought they would be, but they are still a fraction of the people who vote on these polls.
The Western-eastern divide makes ALL the sense in the world for the Nordic Countries. We are all 100% Western Countries. Putting the Nordic Countries in the same bag as Russia would be the worst insult ever... the only thing in common would be the booze ;) The Nordic countries as Northern Europe without Russia totally fine :) As a swede I might consider Estonia someday in the future (perhaps) as a Northern Country, but there are major differences I think. Finish people might see this slightly different though (the Estonia part).
@@jo1918 As a Finn, I'd agree that Estonians are in an awkward gap between the two, like a teen between childhood and adulthood. However my gut instinct is that we're probably being a bit harsh on them based on memories from 5,10,20 years ago.
what is the real eastern europe here ? and what the real west . If you choose this path the real west is North France/England/Benelux and Real East: European Russia . Of course on this gradient it only is obvious czechs lay somewhere in between but let assure you that if you are from lets say wallonia and go to Czech rep it will feel more different than for a person from Kiev going to Czech rep too (culturally especially). Ties do exist but its crazy Central Europe has such a strong drain while it makes no sense to add if you keep east west around. Why ? Because even in "central europe" Germany is still closer to Benelux and even france than to Slovakia or Hungary. Moreover East-West makes sense because you get roughly two blocks of equal pop. Within East and West divisions still exist and it will always be very imperfect ( Lithuania/albania or Portufgal/finland are some extremes). But the more you cut the more you need to make a case for each division and quickly you realize it doesn't hold
@@buhaysaudiOfficial you should learn geography, russia is 25% europe and population is 75% in that european part and history of europe can not be talked with out russia
@@otto_jkGeorgia is fully located in the Asia. 3 percent of Türkiye is located on Europe. Also in that 3 percent more than 10 milion people leave. Due to the Ottomans Turks has strong cultural connection to Balkan nations. Even though governments are fighting each other people’s lifestyle are kinda similar.
Based on that map it seems like mostly western Europeans have voted, especially since the map itself does not depict the geographical boundaries of the European continent, but a more political perspective of it.
How is Turkey in the poll but Russia isn't? Russia is the country i'ld most strongly consider eastern european. Wereas calling Turkey european is very much debateable.
Yeah, this is weird. This channel is about Europe and keep including Turkey in everything and painting Russia as evil. But if you look on the streets, yeah, maybe Europe is in Turkey.
If their only debate is owning a tiny bit of Balkan area then there really is no debate. It's like France deciding to call itself South American". Wth is EU thinking by letting Turkey apply into the EU?
Yeah, thats dumb. If a country has bits of territory in europe it is a shame they didnt include russia and the caucasus, and cyprus isnt europe. I guess its due to germany inviting more turks. After all you behave nicely to people you want to do business with.
As a Greek i would say that we are South Easterns Mediterraneans, not easterns it's totally different! When here in Greece we say east (for Europe) assume somewhere in Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, generally something slavic, all the others from the line you draw are Balkans for us. As a Greek Generally the lines are much more than just east and west. There are, west, north, east, the baltics, South or Mediterranean or east Mediterranean, north east, the balkans and Asia minor.
@@mrthomaschannelearth no, I am not, the culture doesn’t expire, it’s in people, in their values, in their minds, forever. The only reason somE Greeks want to be part of your western culture is the economic, and with the latest developments in the World’s economic level, there will be less and less need for that. Greeks will be back to their humane, Byzantine, non aggressive and non materialistic attitude, attitude of equality between nations and people, that they always belonged to. That’s the fact all other is worthless opinions.
If only there was some massive geopolitical entity that had control over "eastern europe" that lasted from 1945 to the 90's that explains the sentiment in about a minute.
As some have pointed out, there is an area called "Central Europe" between Eastern and Western Europe that British people might not be aware of. You look at the time zones: the Eastern time zone starts in Romania, Greece, Finland etc. That's Eastern Europe geographically . Poland, Czech Republic etc. are in Central Europe. The confusion has historical reasons (areas that were in Austria- Hungary + plus Poland are Central), religious reasons (Roman Catholic are Central, Orthodox are Eastern) and political reasons (the countries that the Soviet Union occuped after WW2 for ~ 40 years are all Eastern.) There are a lot of prejudices, and the divisions are subjective. It's more polite to speak of "Central- Eastern- Europe" and talk about "new EU member states" rather than just call Eastern Europe the "ex -Soviet bloc" and assume it is a poorer version of the West.
It would be the other way round, the term would be "Eastern Central Europe", since "Eastern" is the Adjective here. "Central Eastern Europe" would be Moscow lol
I, being Czech, take it as language thing. If Brits understand Czechia as Eastern Europe, I am will use words the way Brits will understand them, thats what words are for.
I can tell you in US and Canada, there is Western, Eastern, Mediterranean, sometimes Nordic but not central. Central was invented by People from Czech rep, etc after cold war so they would not be considered in same category as Poland, serbia or Bulgaria etc. I think it is not polite to try to change name for purpose of distancing oneself from 'lower' countries and then say, don't say 'eastern' not polite (really saying , we are not Poland! )
Being from eastern europe is not simply about poorer country. Fir example, Estonia is quite well off compared to Hungary and culturally much more open, but both considered eastern. Central Europe has no meaning, esp since some try pretend countries like Poland are 'central '! Even though most of Russia is not even Eastern European but Asian.
I don’t understand why Russia is not included as a European country. Considering that your video includes Turkey as a European country because it has a tiny part of the country in the continent of Europe, more of Russia is in the continent of Europe… your bias seems to be showing and it’s skewing you poll.
I honestly feel the labels „Eastern“ and „Western“ (European) don’t make a lot of sense anymore. After all, the Iron Curtain has fallen more than 30 years ago… If you need labels, use those which are geographic in nature w/o any additional political connotation (Atlantic, Mediterranean, Central, Balkan Peninsula, Scandinavia/Nordic, Baltic, etc.).
I grew up in the seventies and eighties, when the Iron Curtain was still dividing Europe. Intuitively, that's still where I would put the border. But when I try to view it rationally, with that dividing line, the eastern part of Europe would be _much_ larger than the western part, taking into account that traditionally, the European border has drawn at the Ural mountains (and in some definitions even includes countries such as Georgia). So, in that sense, Poland (for example) would probably be more 'central' Europe than eastern, or perhaps even 'western Europe'.
@@samuelsilver8077 When I was voting I chose that I'm from Europe. Then They asked from which European country I am. Russia wasn't on the list so I guess it's not about that
I guess the result makes sense. I'm from Austria and it's always funny how we are surrounded by countries considered Eastern. So we also like to use central European, as do all of our neighbours. Finland, Greece, Austria, Czechia and Slowenia are just really tough ones. I was surprised that Slowenia wasn't more boarder line. Geographically it's still at the outskirts of the Alpes, it's economically similar to Czechia and shares a lot of history with Austria and Italy going back to the middle ages, and culturally any parts of Slovenia and the South of Austria are very similar. But it makes sense. Most are actually in the east and share many traits. So it depends if you want devide Europe in 2 halfs or if you want further subdivisions (Northern, Baltic, Balcans, Central)
@Leo the British-Filipino Sure I'm also no fan of subsidising Europe in 2 halfs that are politically loaded terms. But I wanted to give my opinion to the topic. Because it is used and they did at least a good job adding all the caviats.
@@dave_724 Unless we are military invaded there's no way we're going back. We well knew what 45 years of Comunists rule means. And even if it tries former Comunists countries are around 50% of total Russian population. And whole EU is 4 times higher. They may try to concur us but cannot hold us. I am not optimistic about Ukraine and Moldova though.
Austria itself has always been something of a transition place between west and east, how I view it anyway, it shares a lot of history with the south and a lot of immigration, way more than proper western euro places like France would
Very interesting idea! If we go all the way back to the Eurovision Song Contest 1963, we hear it introduced as a "Western Europe" contest. Yet, it contains entries from Finland, Norway, and Yugoslavia. I don't think we've ever had a real consensus about this divide because of that haha.
@@account-369 I'm from the UK and even I am pissed off by this bullshit. It's more about this specific channel then what the West thinks about Russia because we do think that Russia is definitely more then qualified to be a European country.
Would be interesting if you showed the map if only residents of that country voted. I’m assuming your audience is majority western so they denied the status of a western country to anyone behind the former iron curtain. I think that the Baltic countries, Czechia, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia would call themselves western.
I'm Romanian and I voted Eastern for all of those countries and yes, I did use the Iron Curtain + Greece and Cyprus (for being Orthodox). Funny thing is, the actual centre of the continent is in Ukraine or Poland, so the only pure East is Russia (considering European Russia covers about 1/3 of all of Europe). But I don't get why would the term Eastern "carry baggage"? Ok, we're poorer, so? We had 45 years of communism imposed on us at gunpoint. I'd get feeling ashamed if we had chosen that of our own free will, but we never did. It was imposed by the Allies after WW2. I at least am proud we managed to survive such a destructive regime and while I see myself as European, I do feel a special attachment for the Eastern countries, we endured together and they can understand. I don't care if the UK left the EU, I'm kinda happy we got rid of them, but I would feel sad if the same happened to Poland or Hungary.
The map is a bit misleading since geographically western russia is part of europe. I would add central europe including germany,poland,austria,czech republic,slovakia,hungary,slovenia and croatia.
@@Aestholus It is actually just my perception but I think Poland is Eastern Europe, Croatia is more suitable to be Balkans. Hungary is East. Germany is West. Slovenia is in the hole of nowhere(just kidding =) ) The above is just a personal perception, based on history and my understanding of the countries. And a bit of sarcasm
@M G Google Balkan Peninsula - it will tell you Croatia is 46% in it. Balkan isn't just a mountain, or mountain area in Bulgaria. So yes, please do check the maps. Thanks!
I also like to look at the east-west question culturally. I usually joke that austria is the most western eastern european country, mostly because i see so much shared culture due to the history of KuK austria. For example a lot of traditional eastern european foods are also traditional austrian foods, just with a different name. my bosnian friend and i (from eastern austria) have more in common than me and my german friends. i think this historical connection is something to consider. also, of course, most of what we today think of as eastern is basically ex-soviet nations. there are a lot of people in the comments pointing out that it is now more useful to have a central-west-east-south divide and i totally agree with that
I think the answer is just that people are always closest to their neighbors. As a German who grew up in the south west and now lives in Bavaria, I felt very close to France for most of my life, but now feel closer to Czechia. When I hop over the border, the food in Czechia is very similar to the one in Bavaria. Historically, there'S also huge connections of course. So, since you're from eastern austria it makes perfect sense. Certainly though a person from Linz wouldn't say that bavarian food is completely different. I think this is probably the flaw of any such divisions, now. Cause ultimately we all feel probably closest to our neighbors (unless we have proper reason to hate them). So, if the line happens to be drawn right east to your country, it would seem odd. Cause I don't know about Austria and Germany, but certainly Austria and Spain feel much further apart than Austria and Slovakia. And as a German, as much as I've never had any issues with any Irish people, Czechia or Poland are just much closer. Whether I as a German feel more connected to our western or eastern neighbors depends entirely on where I live.
Tbh, the upper most eastern part are the Ural Mountains. And the most southern part are the Caucasian mountains. Overall, you should’ve included Russia, Georgia and Azerbaijan.
I agree. Most of Russia's population is in Europe. The most recognised eastern border between Europe and Asia (the Ural Mountains and Ural River) is within Russia and Kazakhstan. The South Eastern border runs along the Caucasus Mountains. If Turkey is to be considered part of Europe, with only a small fraction of the country in Europe (only the part of the Marmara Region north/west of the Turkish Straits), then Russia, Kazakhstan, Georgia and Azerbaijan should also be considered part of Europe. Those 5 nations are in *both* Europe and Asia.
Showing people map without including mentioned countries could provide slightly different results than with more typical Europe borders at Ural and Caucasus.
Greece is in Southern Europe, though, not Eastern. Calling Greece Eastern European is a bit like calling France part of Northern Europe just because it sits on the coast.
Well Greece sits at southernmost part of Balkan peninsula which is South Eastern Europe. So Greece if we decide to go binary is unequivocally Eastern Europe both due geography and its history and culture up to Cold War. Noone would count European Turkey as Western Europe. Its cos ppl see the term as political with only late 20th century connotations and not as actual geographical term you've got problem with it. Is it problematic to count Cambodia as part of southeastern Asia just like Singapore or Thailand? No? Then Greece as part of( South) Eastern Europe shouldn't raise anyones eyebrow either.
@@rehurekj Culturally, historically, geographically and socially it has more in common with other Mediterranean/Southern countries (Italy, Spain, Cyprus) than with the Balkan (majority Slavic population) and the east continental Europe.
@Vasili YT hardly. If you wanna divide Europe to 2more or rather less cohesive but somewhat logical blocks by combining our intertwined national histories, cultures, geographies, ethnicities etc and not just postww2 US foreign politics then Greece deffo falls firmly into the east one- the orthodox/ muslim ottoman/ russian one rather than catholic/ protestant germano/ romance block like Italy. That's the only binary division of Europe that generally makes sense taking into account more than economy and welfare/ tax policies and changing and no longer so distinct social attitides regarding religion( like the north south division) and the border runs thru Polish- lithuanian commonwealth and along turkish- hungarian later austrian frontier thus approximately along today's Schengen border. Culturally and historically even ancient Mediterranean and later roman world was divided that way- latin( and punic and celtic) west and greek( and persian and later turkish and slavic) east and we are still divided along more or less the same lines 2thousand years later.
I think that Central Europe is also a big thing. I would add North/ South divide also. Its not only West/ East. For Example from Baltic to Adriatic there is a distinct culture that mixes western and eastern influences. From Lithuania, Estonia, through Poland, Czechia, Hungary to Croatia we could speak about this central European culture. Austro-Hungarian Empire heritage is big thing here that gave this mixed identity. Another example is big influence of Venetian Republic on Croatia which give Croatian coast an "Italian look".
I don't think an East vs West divide is useful. Personally, I always divide Europe as West, Central, East, North, South and Balkan. Central Europe is the hardest region to define but I usually think of it as Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. I can definitely see why people would disagree with me though
It definitely depends on your perspective, as someone living in and from the Arctic parts of Norway "Europe" seems like this distant southern continent, after all the only land-border we share with a the continent is our neighbour Russia. So for me East/West doesn't matter its north and south whereas every European country outside of the Arctic (including Denmark) is Southern Europe. Now I'm sure Southern Europeans such as the Germans, turks Belarusians would identify with eachother so preferably the entire North/South or East/west divide isn't the best to use... Not that I even claim to be European...
To my mind, eastern European countries are the ones using the cyrillic aphabet and historically orthodox. Czech Republic or Poland culturally has actually more in common with Germany than with Russia/Ukraine/Belarus. That is why this classification between western and eastern does not really make a lot of sense without considering central Europe as well.
@@personalbranddataGermany insults itself every day with its unnaturally prolonged existence after 1945. Nowadays its just another station for the Americans
@@XavierbTM1221 no they arent they are wholly asian why? because the caucus mountain range is Europes Border 1 is muslim and these people dont share heritage with Europeans apart from Armenians linguistically
What were the metrics that resulted in Ireland being given a low rating on LGBT rights? I'm curious because it doesn't seem to reflect attitudes in the country. Ireland was if I remember correctly the first country to legalize same sex marriages by popular vote (with a landslide of overwhelming support) AND to enshrine that right for same sex couples in the constitution. All discrimination based on sexual orientation, including incitement to hatred is illegal. Same sex couples (and singles) have full rights with regard to access to adoption services & IVF treatments. The country had a gay head of government (prime minister) who was quite popular when he was in office. Gay and Lesbian individuals can openly serve in the armed forces. Religious schools are not permitted to dismiss staff or discriminate based on sexual orientation. A bill making conversion "therapy" illegal was on track to pass easily but got disrupted by COVID.
I was a bit surprised too. From the point of view of LGBT+ rights, Ireland is very advanced. Perhaps they wanted to refer to the rights of women, in particular as far as abortion is concerned?
For me, the Western/Eastern division was for the most part based on the Cold War and the separation between the USA/NATO and the USSR/Soviet Bloc. For that reason, I agree with the final result except Greece. However, it was harder than I expected.
you're wrong, the culture is different also, eastern europe is mainly orthodox and has been under big eastern empires like Russia and the Ottomans, while the West was more free and competitive, their isolation from the Eastern invasions allowed them to form stronger societies with less corruption and more inovation. We eastern europeans tried to imitate the West.
For Greece it is obvious: Greece is a longstanding member of the EU/EC/EEC (since 1981) and NATO. Hence the vote to be "western" despite its geographic location.
The reason why many, may put Greece in the west has to do with history. more precise because of ancient Greece and the contribution to the west civilization many associate it with west. The thing is, that we Greeks see ourselves as Eastern Europeans not the negative way as people associate it today but because we as Greeks always" prefer" the east and have historically move east wards, culturaly, religiously, and more are closer to east than west.
@@dnkal2875 Yeah that said it doesn't make sense. Remember history class? Roman Empire? The EAST part of the Roman Empire spoke Greek not Latin. The WESTERN part of the Roman Empire spoke Latin not Greek. Same after the fall of the Byzantine empire where the Greek influence of the western Mediterranean almost completely vanished. This connection you make may apply by for scholars of philosophy or history but not for nowadays humans. They are coined by Greece being a member of Western organisations like NATO, EFTA and later the EEC/EC/EURATOM/EU. [Edit: but sure, Greeks seeing themselves more of Easterners makes culturally, historically and by being mostly orthodox Christians sense.]
@@popelgruner595 I don't exactly understand what you try to say in the start . But what I said is, that for common people when Greece came to mind the majority only associated with ancient Greece and it contributions to the west. And because of that they associate it with the west. I don't say is the only reason I just say what probably is the most common reason. As for the scholars it may be the other way around because they focus not only in ancient history they have a more brood view.
It would be interesting to create a poll with more nuanced divides: western, northern, eastern, central & southern, since this divide is quite generic and leaves strange results for countries like Finland or Cyprus
It's a fine idea but I think that this system would work even better if we could choose 2 options. So for example X country is first "northern" and second "western" european but Y country is first "southern" and second "central" european etc. It would probably help remove that cold war division which is making less and less sense every year.
@@ThePaciorr That is maybe the way in the Eastern European countries. They avoid talking about Eastern and prefer to divide Europe into central, north and south. I get it. It's a matter of prestige as said in the video. In the West we still tend to divide Europe in classic terms taking into account history, economics, democracy and personal freedoms, West and East that is.
@@KrlKngMrtssn Idk. I still think Northen european works better for sweden or finland than western european. Same for southern european being more matching for eg. spain compared to western which works the best for Benelux, France, UK, Ireland, Switzerland and say Germany.
@@KrlKngMrtssn Speak for yourself. I live in Norway and I find it offensive to be labeled as "western" rather then "northern". The island of Man, Scotland, all the nordic countries and all the Baltic countries are *not* in either of the two categories of this video, but Northern Europe. And Germany, Poland, Czechia, Switzerland and Austria and Lichtenstein doesn't belong in the two either, being Central European (there's more Central European countries, but those are the first that pops up in my mind when thinking of Central Europe). Greece, Italy, the whole Iberian peninsula, Cyprus, Malta and the European part of Turkey isn't in either of the two categories but in Southern Europe. The Balkans... Is complicated... Some of the countries there belongs in Central Europe, some in Southern Europe and some, like Serbia in Eastern Europe I feel. I'd place Romania, Bulgaria, Belarus and Serbia in Eastern Europe myself. That said I'm less familiar with the southeastern parts of the continent and might make different evaluations of countries there then someone local with more detailed knowlege about the regions in question.
@@Luredreier of course you prefer to be labelled as Northern. It's more prestigious. But being offended if described as western is maybe a bit over the top. Didn't think you are so sensible up there, sorry
It is pretty hard to draw such line because for example one of the biggest inspirations for Western culture come from Greece, which falls into the Eastern team in various categories. Another example is Italy, which has in almost all categories ranked similar results as Greece and other Eastern countries but yet it was a 99% West vote. Other examples could be Czechia and Slovenia which in an Easterners point of view look too Western (ex. Slovenia in the Balkans) but got barely in the East side.
You haven't seen Poland. Currently about 1/5 of Poland was Prussian which is literally the creator of united Germany. Not only mentioning that our lands were German, Russian and Austrian which makes our country split into two sides.
@@recordofragnarokisapurehyp6660 Yeah but that is completely irrelevant now. Prussia is gone and so are its people. No one cares about demographics that are 70 years out of date
Greece and Italy are Southern Europe! The East/West Divide is a Cold-War holdover NOT a Geographical term! Both Greece and Italy {along with Finland in Northern Europe} are considered Western Europe because they weren't associated with the Soviet Union. - Also the Centre of the Continent is around Minsk and Kiev so in fact every nation west of Belarus and Ukraine is actually in Western Europe!
How did you chuckleds forget to mention the former Iron Curtain in this video? That's literally how the continent used to be divided and many people still go by that line when making the distinction.
Why did you include Turkey but not Russia? Both have European territories and significant cultural and historic ties to Europe, so both should qualify. But if you had to choose between one or the other, Russia should surely be on the list, as the size of Russia's territory in Europe is significantly larger, than Turkey's and culturally Russia is also closer to what's generally considered "European". And and most things of significance in Russia happen in the European half, while most of Turkey's important centres are solidly in Asia Minor (well, unless you consider that also part of Europe).
@@rhythmicmusicswap4173 Im not quite sure, but Turkey/Ottoman Empire used to hold vast territories in Eastern/Balkan Europe for hundreds of years, their presence in Europe is as long lasting as Russia, which, oddly enough possese far more territory in Asia than in Europe
@@XavierbTM1221 : And you could add the fact, that since times of Acient Greece until the Islamic conquest Asia Minor was liked more to Europe than its Asian neighbours. But still, this does leave the Question, why Russia was left out. Even with the larger part of its territory being in Asia, the people and Culture in those territories are overwhelmingly European.
Most important center is Eastern Thracia for Turkey this part of Turkey has 20 millions population and most industrial and develop region of all balkans also %70 of all wealth and financial center is in İstanbul so Istanbul and Eastern Thrace dominantly and decisively most important center in Turkey Also Aegean Regions always called as Near East
To split Europe in Eastern and Western Europe is a relic of the Cold War and, to no surprise, the poll reflects that with the dividing line being very similar to the Iron Curtain. If you go by distinct cultures and geography you end up with Southern, Western, Central , Northern, South-Eastern and East Europe.
Ataraktes Exactly. What is the purpose of this poll? Spreading an antiquated worldview? They should have included a option "reject an east-west assignment".
Agreed, although I must add that those 6 groups you mentioned will overlapse a bit too. Propably even more than with east/west divide. Again Greece, Iberia and Baltics come to my mind.
@@papaicebreakerii8180 There is no slavic culture. It is an ethnic group and not even really. It's really mostly only about the ethymology of the languages. If you look at genetic composition among slavs then Poles have as much genetic similarity to Serbs as they have with Swedes and Russians are more similar to Baltic peoples than to other slavs. EDIT: Then you can look at religion and it turns out west slavs for example have more common holidays and traditions with anglos than with east slavs even though the distance difference is not supporting that theory. Also, How is Germanic and Romance cultures "west" and Slavic "east" and how does germanic and romance has so much more in common together than for example germanic and slavic? What supports your thesis here? Imprinted psyche from cold war era and that's it. Give some examples and elaborate on your statement if you want to change my mind.
Personally I'm more surprised that Turkey is in the list at all considering only the relatively tiny part west of the Bosporus is actual Europe while the rest is Asia.
Not actually true, that divide of Asia and Europe isn't official anywhere. The region also has close historic ties with Europe culturally going back to at least the bronze age with Greek colonists. There's not geographical official definition of Europe. The divide is entirely cultural and subjective. It's a single continental plate without a clear break. There some possible ones, Black Sea, Bosphorus , Caucasus Mountains, etc but none of them divide the continents entirely. So Turkey might not feel European to you, you could totally argue it but it's not an objective fact nor is it's inclusion into Europe's sphere baseless.
Turkey is an odd one, it could very well be considered either or both. It comes down to preference and politics. I find Turkey to be European, being its most Southern border. Azerbaijan, Georgia and Russia filling up the other edges of our beautiful continent
If you talk about culture then this whole Europe-Asia divide is stupid (it is), Europe shares a similar culture, but in Asia, the Chinese, Indian, and Middle Eastern cultures are just as unrelated and vastly different to each other as to the European culture. There should be just an Eurasian continent and it should merely be a geological concept.
Eastern Europe is a political term referring to countries that were behind iron curtain. Im from Poland, my town is directly at the border with Germany. It is 1,5 hour drive to Berlin which is in Western Europe. Doesn't seem like Im crossing to western europe just by crossing the border which is a few miles from where I live. If you would put Moscow on your map as a part of Europe which it geographically is, you would see that Poland is actually in the middle of Europe. That line goes likely through the middle of Poland rather than at it's western border. That is why we say we live in central eastern europe rather than eastern europe. Sweden is north of Poland and is definitely not eastern Europe. Funny thing is that Greece is definitely in eastern Europe according to your polls since all the balkan countries north of it are, yet nobody ever calls it eastern europe. I would say that the wealth is the major reason why we call some countries eastern or western. Nobody calls Sweden or Finland eastern because they are wealthy and were never part of the iron curtain. That being said I do not agree with the line you have drawn even though it is a commonly used line. I am also pretty confident saying that Prague is in western europe.
@@pistolpetetc what definition of Europe, and what definition of "central" and "west" or "east"? I like the geographical definition. If you like the cold war definition then Poland is in the east. By the cultural definition (west depicting everything "european" in opposition to "asian", roman or anglo-saxon inspired) then Poland is in the center, or even more west (especially nowadays). So which is it?
Why there is just half of european continent? Draw complete continent map with that large part of russia, and you'll see that Poland, Czechia and Slovakia are clearly in the center of it. That's why they call themselves central european states.
Its totally true that Eastern is viewed as a negative term. As someone from Hungary, I'd never call it Eastern and always refer to my county as Central Europe.
Not to mention having just two categories, ignoring Northern, Central and Southern Europe... I feel quite uncomfortable with the label "western" for Norway, to put it mildly... Just as I would with "eastern". We're *northern*, and honestly I find the label "western" a bit offensive...
and that some people just looked at a map and doesn't know the nations. I put lots of nations at west because I believe that eastern countries are the ones that have a high Slavic population. Finland is definitely western because of its culture and traditions are more Nordic and western.
Lots of Factors, it is Mediterranean European like South Italy & Spain…it is the foundation of European History, and it has even given the name Europe to the continent itself! Also been in the EU for a while, Nato Country, and also is Politically Western. Never fell under communism, is not Slavic etc
As someone born in Romania, I have wrestled with the term Eastern European for most of my life - given the many negative connotations it has in the West. Yet, of course... Eastern Europe is a thing, and if would get over prejudices and use the term without some sort of value attached to it, it would be useful. The most common meaning for Eastern Europe is simply post-communist Europe - everything east of the former Iron Curtain. This of course, has some merit to it, as those countries do share Communism and the situation it generated in their recent history. Abandoned industry, underdeveloped economies, Soviet-style apartment blocks (that many still live in), a corrupt political class, a break from from pre-WWII social order, and a reactionary present that tries to make up for said break. So, post-Communist Eastern Europe is a thing, but it classifies its "members" almost entirely based on less than 100 years of their history and either ignoring or making generalizations regarding their cultures. (I also sometimes joke that this take on "Eastern Europe" sort of makes Eastern Europeans into what Mexicans are for the US. - no offence intended; Mexicans, Eastern Europeans, and indeed most people everywhere are all lovely) But if we go beyond only recent history, there are other ways of coming up with valid definitions of "Eastern Europe." We can look at past multinational European empires, for example. They still leave a cultural mark today. Where did Russian influence end? Where did German influence start and how would we classify Ottoman influence? Likewise, we can look at historical religion. There is a line between Orthodox Christianity and Catholic/Protestant Europe. Orthodox countries are of course culturally more akin to Greece/Russia, while Catholic/Protestant populations have a more Occidental identity. Again, similarly to the former-empires method of division, there emerges a northern and a southern strand of Eastern-Europeanness. It also makes it clear that dividing East from West (or North from South for that matter) doesn't necessarily have to happen along the borders of nation states. While we can maybe judge how Western or Eastern Poland or Ukraine are as a whole, culturally speaking, we can also argue for a West/East divide within them. The East of Poland is Orthodox and belonged to the Russian Empire, while the West and South was under German influence and is staunchly Catholic. Ukraine also has Catholics and Greek Catholics in its West (former Austrian Empire), but more interestingly, perhaps, there is a strong linguistic divide: a Ukrainians-speaking West and a Russian-speaking East. But, in this same sense - it is worth asking what merit the term "Western European" has beyond an umbrella term for "the part of Europe that was not under Communism." What makes Western Europe Western beyond the fact that it escaped the clutches of Stalin? To me, personally, Western Europe only really makes sense if it incorporates NL, BE, LUX, FR, UK, CH, and IE. That's about it. These countries have a more intertwined history, a long democratic tradition (in the case of BE and IE as successor states and LUX is an outlier) and a resistance to totalitarian ideologies in the 20th century. (Not to mention crazy rents and restaurant prices in the present... jeesh). This same corner of the continent has somewhat dominated the modern history of Europe as a whole. The Dutch Golden Age, the Industrial Revolution, Colonialism, the French Revolution, etc. Of course, given Spain and Portugal's early imperial ambitions, this would nudge them towards being considered in the same category, but I would merely consider them the "Western" (not geographically speaking) Southern Europeans. Where does this leave European cultural behemoths like Germany and Italy then? Well, the hugely useful concept of "Central Europe" must come into play here. Italy, here may be considered as "Central" Southern Europe. Italy, of course, extremely influential in the late Middle Ages, becomes a bit of a secondary player in the modern age with its small competing states. Similarly Germany is disjointed and until the dominance of Prussia that brings it up to speed with the West, merely reacts to what is going on in France and the UK. German imperial ambitions are mostly constrained to the European continent (Eastwards), thus bringing many peoples to Germany's East under its influence and cementing a trans-national Central European culture. This culture absolutely still stands today and ignores the former Iron Curtain. The non-German Central European identity is what makes the Visegrad4 countries such good palls. But it is also what makes Bavaria so similar to Czechia. In any case, I think I've made my point and I do not intend to bore you with my views as I am no person of any import. If you read through my comment and made it this far, I thank you and I hope you will also share your views or maybe reply to me in case you disagree of have something to add. As a final note: No matter which corner of the continent is the most considered the most "European" at any given point, we must always remember that time flows at the same pace everywhere, people - made of the same stuff - lived and live everywhere and that the same amount of history took place everywhere. As such, it is a shame how much we are taught about some countries in "European History" classes, while completely ignoring others. This also hugely contributes to the unhelpful East/West divide that stereotypes peoples based on a superficial knowledge of relatively recent events.
Spain and Portugal aren't geographically Western? They're the two Westernmost countries in mainland Europe, and only Ireland or Iceland are further West (Madrid being further West of London, whereas Lisbon is further West of Dublin). How is that NOT Western Europe?
What you're saying about Poland doesn't make sense. Even east of Poland is overwhelmingly Catholic, not Orthodox. And I mean overwhelmingly since various Orthodox churches in total have 1% of presence. Polish borders were moved west after WW2 so former parts of Poland are now parts of Ukraine and Belarus whilst parts of eastern Germany are now Polish however there were major resettlements happening so population of Poland in homogeneous with Catholic Poles mostly.
Well lets not pretend east and west division of europe has anything to do with actual geography( Finland), economy( Slovenia or Czechia) or their thousand years of history- except less than 50years during last half of 20th century. Lets call it what it is- postcommunist Europe but if we dont want to be hypocrites then we have call analogously the other half postfascist Europe- its the same logic during 20th century many of those states- Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, even formally independent France during WW2, were fascist and didnt turn communist after the WW2 and thus should be label as such in perpetuity just like their former communist counterparts.
You are already seeing that with Slovenia, Czechia and so on, that they are considered much less Eastern. My guess is that we will seem them trying to be considered Central Europe, with the Baltics being considered Nordic and Eastern Europe ending up being Slavic non EU countries, aminly Russia, Ukraine, Belarus. Greece was also never communist, but seems to be considered Eastern.
@Olaf Sikorski thats the case of every formerly fascists state in postcommunist europe. Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, even post Munich czecholovakia and late interwar Poland had certain fascist tendencies.
@@rehurekj You're not wrong, however for interwar Poland had an authoritarian government formed by the (formerly?) socialist party. It was actively persecuting only activists: nationalist, communists as well as nazi sympathisers to suppress political dissidents. That's quite a bit different from what the Ustaše brought upon Croatia.
"Well lets not pretend east and west division of europe has anything to do with actual geography( Finland)" You could justify that geographically by also considering Northern and Southern Europe separate from Eastern and Western Europe. That way you can also count Greece as Southern rather than Eastern. You could also count Central Europe separately though that would make things quite messy.
Well, dividing Europe into East and West is not really useful, this result was pretty predictable (Post communist countries = East, the rest is West). It would be a lot more interesting to see people drawing the line of Central Europe e.g.
@@shion3948 West Europe = British Isles and Ireland, France, Belgium, Netherland, East Frisia Central Europe = Germany, Czechia, Slovakia, Austria, Switzerland, Italy (North of former Papal territory), Poland, Pannonia, Slovenia, Slavonia, Wallachia Southeast Europe = Balkaner, rest of Croatia, Turkish Thrace South Europe : Rest of Italy, Spain, Portugal, Malta, Roussillon, North Europe : Denmark, Schleswig, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Karelia, Estonia East Europe = North of Caucasus and West of Ural Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, Moldavia, Podlasie,
'm curious if hypothetically after World War 2 no country in Europe was dominated or influenced by the former USSR, let's say everyone in the former Warsaw Pact (besides the USSR itself) was in the NATO and a Western-style democracy, would there even be a discussion what is Eastern and what is Western Europe? Would it then be purely geographical discussion with no political connotation? I wonder how would that work then>>>
The border between east and west is marked by... cathedrals. The last countries of the west are: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia. Farther away there are no cathedrals, there is Orthodoxy and the east of Europe begins.
The final line clearly shows the legacy of the Iron Curtain. I think however, that this line will move further to the east as time passes and if we don't start a WW3 in Europe and maybe calm down the Balkans, then the current East can be a huge geopolitical force, such as the current west. If both East and West rises up, then we can welcome another century of western hegemony in the world.
east rising? eastern european countries have largest brain drain, lowest fertility rate, high rate of corruption, etc. east will always be, what it always was, it it the fate of the east. and communism finally put the nail in the coffin of the eastern countries.
@@account-369 to be fair it's not the same for all of them, look at Poland, they're on track to reach the level of Italy at the very least, all you need to do is root out corruption to advance to Italy level or so
The separation in east and west is artifical. What's about "Central Europe" a widely used term for the region of these countires: Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Cechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary and Poland
It's kind of ironic that Greece is seen as one of the most western countries among those that are geographically in the east, despite its culture being almost synonymous with the EASTERN Orthodox Church- one of the biggest differentiating factor between the East and the West culturally, and I assume, one of the reasons people started to consider seeing Europe as being east/west divided in the past, before the times of the Iron Curtain (I may be wrong on that but that was always my understanding of why that kind of divide would even make sense). Then the Iron Curtain thing happened and people had already been predisposed to think about the east/west divide but now the fact who was communist in the mid XX century became the main determinig factor of what's considered east and west, especially for Americans and Western Europeans, but that left some countries feeling "out of place" being lumped into the eastern camp, as for the majority of their history they had closer cultural ties with the West than with the East.
When you mention ties what is your historical East then : only Russia, or Orthodxy ? is Historical West the area of the Roman EMpire in Europe ? Slavic - non Slavic is also a big divide (which explains a bit greece's position)
@@olsenfernandes3634 when Rome was one united empire then yes, there was 1 civilization spanning Europe. After they split the Latins and the Greeks developed differently and spread their civilization differently. The truth is that modern western civilization is Frankish, whereas Eurasian civilization is Greek.
I would really like to hear a feedback from tl;dr why even after saying "there is 47 countries in Europe depending on how you're counting" they still didn't put Russia on the list. U.N., for example, puts Russia in the European region. It's almost as if tl;dr is insisting. (Just a Russian person wondering what's up with that)
My guess is that they just figured that Russia (and Kazakhstan, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia) would score as Eastern by a very high margin. But even so I agree it would've been better to include them.
@@petrograd4068When I voted I was asked whether I'm from Europe. I chose 'yes'. Then I was a list of European countries to choose from and Russia wasn't on the list. Which is pretty ouch
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The East vs West is just too restrictive to make sense. In Czechia, everybody will tell you we're "central Europe". I'm fairly confident the Greeks would identify as "south Europeans". The East vs West is a relict of the Cold War and doesn't work anymore.
Yeah something like that, but it was interesting to see the results for "middle Europe". Especially for someone from Czechia, cause Czechia in this is interesting case. I was also curious about Poland. And my first thought was i would maybe start drawing a line between Czech and Slovak althou it seperates us and it's questionable :) But that is what was this video about.
If you look at the big oriental influence in the culture of Greece (as in Bulgaria and, partly, Romania, then you realise it is (also) Eastern. Of course, the 40+ years on the "western" part of the iron curtain did have its impact.
@@balak1 the greek culture is greek not oriental
@@TheCyricson Greek culture varies by location, social class, family history and many other factors.
People forget that we Greeks have lived in multiethnic countries that spanned most of the eastern mediterranean ever since the peninsula was conquered by the romans. Roman empire then eastern Roman then Byzantine then Ottoman, add Alexander the greats conquests that established links all the way to india and the current European Union, we are bound to have influences by our neighborhood, a neighborhood that we defined.
Its not something that makes us less Greek, not at all, its a major benefit, after all we are a seafaring nation since antiquity, we have understood that "Μέγα το της Θαλάσσης κράτος" (Great is the power of the sea/Great states are those who control the sea) (Θουκυδίδης, ιστοριών Α, 143), and if you control the Mediterranean (Like we did, in many many eras) you will get influensed by it and you will be better off.
It's more so about political ideology than geographical location.
The religiosity divide seems much more north/south than east/west to me.
EDIT: I'm talking about degree of religiosity, not Catholic & Protestant vs Orthodox.
But if you consider the denomination is more east/west which makes more sense since more/less religious doesn't mean much if you don't consider what religion you are actually looking at.
Austria and France arent "south"
east/west is how the christian world is divided, the catholic/western-christian world is divided into north/south
@@Maynard0504 If by north you mean Scandinavia then yes
@@pierren___ Austria is sometimes called the Balkan's northernmost country. France can be considered southern because it is on the mediteranean, all the other romance speaking countries are to the south and French Guyana is considered an integral part of mainland France so if you'd take the average point it would end up way more southern than you'd expect.
It would be interesting to see where people that voted originate from too. I can imagine a non-European person voting more based on geography instead of 'a feeling'.
Also, I always thought the East/West divide was based on former Soviet countries. This also lines up pretty well with your data and makes more sense to me. It explains why people think of Finland and Greece as borderline or West.
Of course greece is east when you consider austria (a more west country) east
I used the Iron Curtain as my indicator + Greece because of the Orthodox faith.
I'm Irish but I voted purely off of geography.
Turkey was not voted west though. I would say Orthodox/Islam background also has a role. And Greece is considered west by some because they think ancient Greece was the origin of Western civilization.
I think the location of the former Iron Curtain does play the biggest role, but culture and history can shift that quite significantly. Estonia and Czechia were both on the east of the Iron Curtain, but Estonia comes across to most people who know anything about it as a Scandinavian country that's just ended up on the wrong side of the Baltic Sea (which is also more or less how Estonia likes to portray itself), and whenever Estonia makes the news in other parts of Europe, it is almost invariably in a positive light, and to do with their tech-based economy, which are things people associate more with Western Europe. Czechia probably has its long historical connection to Austria, and the popularity of Prague as a very Western-looking tourist destination, to thank for being considered more Western than its West Slavic counterparts in Poland and Slovakia.
It is also interesting that Germany was considered by over 99% of people to be Western European, despite a significant chunk of it, including the immediate surroundings of the country's capital, having been east of the Iron Curtain. Of course modern Germany is dominated by former West German politics and business, but I would have nonetheless expected Germany to score lower than France, Britain or the Low Countries.
Here in the United States, where I studied world geography in middle school, we were taught that Greece was part of Western Europe despite it's location. This was a holdover from Cold War geopolitics, as Greece was one of the only countries in the east that was not communist. Since Ancient Greece Was the birthplace of democracy and Western civilization, there is a tendency of western countries to want to associate it among themselves.
The East/West divide WAS Cold-War Geopolitics and still is....Otherwise no-one would argue that Czechia, Croatia and Slovenia are Eastern Europe as all are clearly in the Western half of the Continent.
The Ukraine and Belarus are actually across the mid-point of Europe NOT Czechia!
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People forget that despite most of Russia being in Asia the European part still covers a huge portion of the European Continent!
"Western civilization" is not "Western European culture".
Western civilization spans from Lisbon to Vladivostok
If the question is only east/west, its reallt a question of wasavapact.
It really makes no sense not calling finland north.
But even talking wasava pact there is a few surprices. Turkey is and for a long time been a nato member.
1/4 of germany was wasava pact. Finland and Sweden was neither.
Most surpricingly yougoslavia was neither despite being a communist country... well.. kind of communist with some fashist parts.
Also while most people know that itally was fashist untill 1945, most people don't know that greece, spain and Portugal was fashist untill 1974/75. Making this really quite a lot more complicated.
The history we read in school makes the student belive that fahsism was extermianted in Europe in 1945. This was far from true.
While it might be true that the last 3 countries was somewhat of "fashist light" and say yougoslavia was somewhat of "communist light"
Russia doesnt belong to West and will never be. Its different type of civilisation. @@gnas1897
But what about Turkey then? They joined NATO early, supported the US militarily and were far from being communist during the Cold War
I'm surprised that there was no mention of the USSR and Yugoslavia - as far as perceptions of what's 'west' and what's east, I would have thought it played a pretty big role.
Edit: Warsaw pact/Iron Curtain, not USSR
yugoslavia had big role?
how so?
Absolutely, thought the same but I think he implied it somehow
@@account-369 atleast in America we always treated Yugoslavia as any other communist country, just part of the eastern bloc. I know it’s more complicated with then being far more neutral but most Americans probably said every former communist country was eastern.
I'd guess most of the audience is too young to have experienced the Cold War first hand so it plays less of a role. Turkey today for example is primarily seen as bad at democracy, not as an ally against the Russians.
Spot on! It's a term from the history and a pretty big blunder excluding it from the video unfortunately
The line you ended up drawing is quite close to the line that divided the Western and Eastern blocs during the Cold War, if you count democratic, non-aligned countries such as Sweden as 'Western' and non-Soviet-aligned Yugoslavia and Albania as 'Eastern', with the exception that
i) East Germany is part of Germany and in the West here, but was a separate country and aligned with the East during the Cold War.
ii) Greece and Turkey are in the East here, but were aligned with the West during the Cold War.
Not exactly. Finland didn't necessarily side with the Soviets, but their relationship was definitely closer than with the west. Turkey also sided with the west, joining NATO at the same time as Greece. Similar with Cyprus too.
Aside from Finland, Greece, Cyprus, Turkey and ex-Yu; yea
I would still count the former parts of east Germany into east Europe tho
Very cultural divided still
hint hint: don't submit to authoritarian corrupt regimes, they ruin your life.
That's probably how most people devideyhe East and West. 40 years of Cold War made quite a dent in our collective psyche
It's curious to me, that Germany was voted in as almost unanimously "Western" by your audience, since Germany itself likes to highlight its situation as a bridge between East and West... Not too far-fetched, considering the whole split during the Cold War. But, sure, the country is also firmly aligned with the EU and NATO and its greatest foreign policy partners are France, the US and so on. So I can see why we're percieved as purely Western.
Also, within Germany itself, about 90% of the population lives in the former West Germany.
Well, the question didnt allow for "center". If the question is West or East, there really isnt any reason to consider Germany East.
@@scifino1 Well, that seems a bit much. It's closer to 75 % with roughly 16 million in East Germany.
@@jrosenthal7111 Yes, that seems more accurate, but still my point is, the large majority of Germans live in the old West.
Bridge sounds good, but is not meant to be. It's a door that stands on the west side of the border.
Love how you include Turkey in Europe, but Russia is just disappeared from your map.
Because this was made by an ignorant and/or uneducated person :D
@time2132 he's not crying about it. He is simply making a fucking statement.
@@McNoob69420he's crying.
@@skp8748 no?
@time2132 it makes no sense lol. Only Istanbul is in Europe, not even whole city tho. When russia has much bigger territory in europe
The Czech Republic has a lot of historical, cultural and mindset similarities with both Eastern and Western Europe, so we in the Czech Republic simply say that we are Central Europe.
I would have placed Czechia with the Western Europe. I have also visited it.
Poles say that we're Central too
As a Western European who has been to the Czech Republic more times than I can count and can speak the language, I would say this:
Prague is most definitely Central and the whole of Bohemia with the exception of some small villages feels 'central european'. Moravia-Silesian regions is where I would say with the exception of Brno, has a distinctly Easern European culture, especially the villages in which you can experience a really rich traditionally 'slavic' lifestyle. Geographically, it is definitely a Central State, and culturally, I think it has a slight Central bias, but there is a definite Eastern European population, which I do not see as a negative.
I would put Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary and Slovenia in 'Central Europe' due to historical German and Austrian influences.
Whenever I hear of central Europe I think of the Visegard group.
Poland,Czech,Hungary and Slovakia.
Here in Czechia calling us 'Eastern Europe' is simply taken as an insult. We are and have always been Central European. The binary split of Europe to 'East' and 'West' is simply an imposition of defining factor of extremely short period of European history (1945-1989). To countries that see themselves as 'Central European' it just feels somebody still wants to put them back to an era defined by the communism and soviet dominance out of pure intellectual laziness
Amen my brother (or sister). I consider old Visegrad countries as Central European and my own country Finland as Nordic, and both culturally "western".
From intuition, I would have put the devide along the cold war lines. But Czechia is the country among them who "feels" most western. So central Europe certainly makes the most sense
Same for Poland
Same for Hungary.
It’s not an insult don’t get so butthurt
Today "Eastern Europe" usually refers to the former Soviet block, so discussing the concept without even mentioning that seems kind of pointless.
Glad someone pointed this out
And especially considering the fact that those 40 years of Soviet era divided Europe into East and West one way but historically (before Soviets) the divide was somewhere else. That's especially true for Czechia and Slovakia...
Yeah, I was waiting for them to talk about the iron curtain but no, very incomplete analysis.
Yugoslavia was not part of the Soviet block. Are you saying its successor states should be considered Western Europe?
@@gsvick But it was more or less forced to ally with them. As a eastern European it was somewhat possible to travel to Yugoslavia, but almost impossible to cross its western borders, that's were you felt the iron curtain. Though you probably would not have been shot when trying to cross the green boarder.
I love that Portugal is 98% like there's some people thinking "Nah bro, You can be even MORE western than the westernmost point"
Exactly. It makes me so mad as a portuguese
@@vasco35 Portugal cyka blyat
@@vasco35 probably some British people exercising their right not to have attended school
In a way, Portugal is very far east. If you travel east from Spain through Europe, Asia, the Pacific, North America and all the way through the Atlantic, you will arrive at Portugal.
Portugal by many metrics like GDP and religiosity is eastern European. There's a whole subreddit dedicated to Portugal's similarities to eastern European nations
I can understand why you went for an East-West split to keep the survey simple, but a lot of countries in Europe see themselves as Central European. Russia is also missing in my opinion. Most of it’s population lives in the European part and Moscow is the most populous city in Europe.
Exactly. The creators of this video treated the big grey area on the right hand side of the map as Asia, even though that big part is the real Eastern Europe. Also, not sure how European Turkey is really (as most of the county falls on Asia)
@@nitosalt3142Turkey is a special case in my opinion, having ties to so many areas the country borders to making it also not easier by having the biggest City, Istanbul, in Europe.
As in a geographical and political sense it is definitly "eastern europe" and Russia shouldve been included because the population is europe centered than rather asian, same like Turkey. Both countries are special in this topic, so there is no simple solution
Actually, Istanbul is more populous than Moscow.
@@christophergeographyadmini1194 it's not
He made this video because he knew it'll bring a lot of traffic. More traffic, more profit.
I find it a bit weird how Russia isn't even included. Yea might be obviously eastern Europe, but countries like UK, France, spain, portugal ect. would also be obviously western and don't really need poll either. The European Russia might not be the largest area of the country, but despite of being much smaller than Asian Russia, they have about 3/4 of their population in Europe, arguably the most important area of the Russia, with capital and all in Europe.
Excluding Russia, but including Turkey was indeed weird on their part.
Considering their cultures and most populous areas, you would expect the opposite to be the case:
Russia being considered European, while Turkey being considered (Minor) Asian.
Which is exactly what I think skews the perception. People tend to think that Europe ends at the Russian border (which obviously makes a lot of European countries look more Eastern). But if you consider that giant chunk of Europe in Russia, people would realize that the East/West divide (strictly geographically speaking) would be shifted to the East.
AND I also find it odd that there was no mention of Central Europe...
@@Domihork Geographically speaking only eastern European country is Russia (Maybe also Caucasus and Kazakhstan if you consider it European), not even Turkey, and the center of Europe would be in Ukraine
@@user-be1jx7ty7n "Romance dominated" like the "western" countries of Romania and Moldova?;) Also you kinda exclude Greeks and Albanians...
@@TheZett Yeap. Russia is an European country that conquered Asian land, meanwhile Turkey is the opposite.
You definitely missed Russia, because the biggest chunk of Europe is there. However you included Turkey which has very small part in Europe.
So what is your guess, is Russia Western Europe or not?
@@miroslavdusin4325 Europe natural barrier is Ural. Most population of Russia lives to the west of it. So Russia is an eastern European country.
@@borisnikator7060 Geographically yes but otherwise no, Russia is a different entity than Europe. Which is also why the "tectonic zone" in Eastern Ukraine exists (without going into politics).
@@miroslavdusin4325 Besides geography, Russia is a cultural ancestor of Byzantine Empire so calling it not a Europe is a big stretch.
Russia is not a crusader state. And faces the same threat as Byzantine. Actually 4th crusade is what the west is trying to do over and over again, not thinking about consequences.
@@borisnikator7060 Russia claims and wants to be looked at as descendant of Byzantine empire but as always propaganda and reality are far away from each other in Russia. In my view Russia is a mix of influences perhaps also some Byzantine. Especially the young and internationally connected ones identify themselves with Europe and I have absolutely no problem with that, my Russian colleagues are great people, but the majority is rather passive and just now we can see live how strongly they support Hitler's reincarnation.
As a Finnish person I have thought about this. Geographically Finland is certainly in East Europe but when it comes to Finland's society and culture it's definetly more western so it's pretty hard to decide. It's easiest to say that Finland is nordic.
Yeah, same to estonia
But there are also parts of our society and culture that are much more Eastern European compared to for example the other Nordic countries. I personally call us a Nordic-Eastern European. Which makes many Finns very angry
Ive never considered Finland as eastern european. Interesting result.
Finland isn't nordic
@@idontspeaklondon9574 Finland is a Nordic country. But they are not traditionally considered to Scandinavian.
Just one quick not as one of the voters.
When I chose religion as a dividing line between east and west, I was referring to Orthodox vs Catholic faith, not how religious a country is.
I understood it the same
Actually Orthodox vs Catolic vs Protestant
@@Xeverous actually it would be catholic vs protestant vs Orthodox vs Muslim (since Bosnia Albania Kosovo and turkey are mostly Muslim)
@@koyba3747 Turkey is not part of Europe
@@syokanaa9356 western Thrace is a part of Europe, so thus a part of turkey is in Europe
The further East you go, the narrower becomes the definition of "Eastern Europe". If you ask people in Lithuania or Poland, "Eastern Europe" is basically just Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.
Im Ukrainian and I can tell you that even my country we can split into two. Central European vs Eastern European using the old borders of Austria-Hungary. Culturally the two are different, despite sharing language and religion.
@@yuriydee but would you put Germany more with Poland/czechia/slovakia/Hungery of with France/Belgium/Netherlands/England ?
@@tayloryoung9803 No I would put Germany more with Western Europe. That said I cant really speak for Germans maybe they would divide their country too based on old iron curtain borders. But I have visited Dresden, Hamburg, and Munich and all felt very German and Western to me in general. Ive driven thru Czechia and their little towns and villages are almost identical to what we have in Western Ukraine, except they have much better quality roads.
@@yuriydee and western Ukraine which has links with Poland and the Asutrian EMpire of course looks more similar to czech rep than villages near kharkiv. Same could be said with Alsace and Britanny for france. No good answer exists but Central Europe vs West Europe seems also odd enough
@@yuriydee Yeah, same in Romania with Transylvania and parts of Moldova having been a part of Hungary or Austria-Hungary for a very long time, we don't even know how to lable ourselves. We have a lot in common with Central European countries, Balkanic countries, Eastern European countries and even Southern European countries, believe it or not (we even had Greek colonies, and our language is Romance/Latin). I personally always say that Romania is in Southeastern Europe, but even that's debatable, some say it's in Central Europe, but that's a bit of a stretch.
My experience, from working with colleagues from many European countries is that most regard beibg described at Eastern Europe to be an insult. Eastern Europe is considered to be less developed, less modern, than the West. For that reason, Eastern Europe always starts at least one country to the East of the speaker's home country. So to a German, it may include Poland, but to a Pole it definitely doesn't start until at least Belarus.
It often is used to relegate someone into the category of "worse european", pretty often by people claiming to be inclusive and progressive. Quite interesting phenomenon tbh.
In culture, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, the Baltic states, Finland and even most parts of Ukraine are clearly Western Europe, while Turkey has nothing in common with Europe. Maybe the question catholic/protestant formed culture vs. orthodox culture is a better indicator for Eastern and Western Europe?
You guys forgot Russia is in Europe... Then the geographic centre of the continent is evident...
Also, perception of east vs west is strongly biased in the language, such as Poland is considered eastern Europe in the UK supermarkets.
Yup
@@russia2328 he...helow.
@@pawog04youtube3 Hey there
Parts of Turkey are also geographically in Europe. It doesn't mean much, though. Russia is not and never has been a European country in terms of mentality and values. It has more in common with central Asian satrapies.
@@PasserMontanus what is European mentality and values
I'm more than a bit befuddled by the decision to exclude the elephant in the room, Russia, from Eastern Europe. Stranger still, you included nations like Turkey, which only has a small slice of Europe (Thrace), and Cyprus, which is geographically in Asia.
This is an Angloid geography lesson.
First step, talk about drawing a line in Europe, and then suspiciously exclude the largest country in the continent, Russia, to make a sensible choice. Second step, suddenly add a few Middle Eastern countries to the map for no reason. That's how geography works, of course. Third step, ignore historical regions and oversimplify the map.
Since they extended "Europe" all the way to eastern Turkey here, I was hoping they would add Syria, Iran, and Iraq to the map too, but I guess they missed out on that opportunity. Next time I guess.
Atleast they did not put Australia and Isreael like the eurovision contest did😂
I've grown up to think of Cyprus as European, but many on the internet seem to think it's in Asia.
@@xaverlustig3581 Most Cypriots _are_ ethnically Greek, with a minority Turkish population (while Turkey has some land in Europe, it is still debated whether or not they should be considered European or Middle Eastern, not just externally, but also internally), so you could definitely say the people were European, but in terms of geography, they are undeniably in Asia.
Cyprus is literally part of the Levant, along with nations like Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel.
Agree
A version of this poll that doesn't just have East & West, but also has North, South, and Central (and Not Europe?) would be very interesting.
With one version of the poll letting you only pick one category per country, and another version letting you put a country into more than one category (e.g. one might vote Germany as West, North, & Central).
add that to the map vs no map variants and that's 4 new poll variants.
Honestly, it'd be something I'd love to see a few universities across Europe do as a joint project.
YES
Not Europe would likely end up lumping countries on the fringe of Europe but whose governments maintain anti-European foreign and national policies (ex. Turkey, Russia and Belarus)
It would be, but those aren't mutually exclusive either
It's not statistics, it's manipulation: 1. In this video, the map of Europe ends in Belarus and Ukraine, where in reality the border is at the Ural Mountains in Russia. There is also a part of Kazakhstan in Europe, while geographically Turkey is not in Europe. The map prepared in this way incorrectly shows the location of the countries of Central Europe.
2. I don't understand the LGBT question. What does this have to do with Western culture? The culture of the West is Latin civilization, including the same spelling and religion (Latin alphabet, Catholicism), while the East is Byzantine civilization (Orthodox, Greek and Cyrillic), but this film does not even pay attention to it.
My country has over 1,000 years of history in which it has always belonged to the culture of the West. The exception is the times after World War II, when he was betrayed by the Western allies in Yalta and got into the so-called Eastern Bloc. These 40 years of communism were enough to be identified with the East today (1000 years vs 44 years).
People in Europe still live in stereotypes and have very little knowledge of history, geography and geopolitics. They base all their knowledge on subjective films and propaganda information.
In Poland, the nobility's democracy existed already in the 15th century. Currently, we have general elections every 4 years, people have much more freedom of speech than, for example, in Sweden, where comments on internet forums are censored or even blocked. Despite this, in this movie democracy in Poland is assessed at an average level. Why? Mayby… Is democracy when the government does only what Brussels or Berlin wants? Hypocrisy and propaganda like in the Soviet Union.
@@mb9736the democracy index is an external, non-eu measurement 😌
As a Canadian who grew up in the late stages of the Cold War (Reagan, Thatcher, Gorbachev era), I was taught Eastern Europe were Warsaw pact countries, while Western Europe was NATO countries with Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland thrown in (despite them being technically 3rd world nations). Turkey was not taught as a European country as its capital is in Asia.
What about ex yugoslavia? We were between. 😅
Do you mean 3rd world as in neutral, or 3rd world as in underdeveloped ? Because if it’s in the second sense, that’s not true at all. Those three countries are among the most developed and richest on the continent and already were at the time.
@singingcat02 Throughout the cold War, the third world was neutral countries. Most of whom were woefully undeveloped, except for a few like I mentioned in my comment.
@@singingcat02 Third world counrties means the non-aligned countries in the cold war. Much of those nations were on the underdeveloped parts of the world and thus the association with low development probably started, even though many third world nations have more development than some first and second world contries.
@@ruzicas.5819 you were definitely eastern europe, even though Tito successfully withstood pressure from Stalin and could give yugoslavia it's own path in history , it was still a communism path and not a western path.
The main problem with this map is that there's no Central Europe label.
Countries like Germany, Czechia, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Switzerland (leaving out Bosnia for it's delicate matter), they should all be considered Central Europe. They're neither on the west or east, and all of the countries are similar in fact how both eastern and western cultures clash over them, making them a mish-mash of both.
eastern part of Slovakia and Hungary are actually central Europe, look at the geographical map of European continent , parts of Kazakhstan is in Europe and also 1/4 of the Russian Federation is in Europe
@@stefanbog2495 Middle Europe basically was used to describe the Hapsburg Lands of the Austrian/Hungarian empire. So all the countries within the old borders would qualify. So even Lwiw/Lemberg qualifies as Middle Europe. The division betwen East and West was made, when the Roman Empire was split into East/Oriental and West/Occidental Empires. Here the line would be between Latin christian and Orthodox christian countries.
@@borisbrosowski6630 it is all in technicalities and depends on which "map" are we looking at, i was referring to Geographical location of countries not man made borders or splits between east and west
Slovenia,kroaratia and Bosnia is Balkan
@@stefanbog2495 Geographically speaking Lithuania is central Europe
Well 'Central Europe' is a thing and probably quite appropriately comprised of those countries that didn't score 90% East/West.
True
omitting central europe seems really strange to me. In my opinion there are a lot of countries that are not clearly west or east, Poland, Austria, Germany, Slovakia, ...
@@steinerdrei And Croatia.
Only Germany could be truly considered “Central” in my opinion.
@@ColorPandora Why is that ? Doesnt make sense.
I guess one of the reasons why this works so bad-ish is probably because the North and South is neglected. I’ve never heard someone refer to Finland as “Eastern”, but just as Northern. Same for countries like Italy or Spain, people generally don’t refer to them as Western, but more as Southern
Isn't it the point tho? To see people's bias/opinion regarding western/eastern division?
That's a correct way to look at it geographically, but in socio-economic terms there is usually only west-east.
Next video is a north/south divide.
Some countries are easy, but where do you put Austria? Is it north or south.
@@Pindasaus North. It's cold.
@@_blank-_ You do know that most of Austria's surface area is in fact occupied not by the Alps but by the Danube Valley, which has a climate comparable to northern Italy, right?
You gotta divide Europe into Western, Northern, Central, Southern, Eastern and Southeastern. All of those are fairly solid groupings and tell you a lot more about the country.
If we use 16 points if the compass and add ‘inner’ and ‘outer’ we can almost put every country in its own group: Ireland is in Outer West North West Europe, for example, and Serbia is Inner South East. Problem solved!
@@CartoTypeThose are rather unruly group names though. How about we give those groups names that are easier to remember? i.e. instead of saying "Inner South East", we say "Serbia" and instead of "Outer West North West Europe", we refer to that group as "Ireland". Why has no one come up with that idea before?!?
And Southwestern. Spain and Portugal are southwestern Europe. Spain and Greece are quite different
As a Dutch guy I'm just happy that Belgium is labeled as a flawed democracy.
Zuid nederland heeft zijn problemen ja
I don't know where you were living in the past one year, but would put the NL to the failed democracies, as well. And I am not too happy about it...
@@adongo577 Honestly, there are no more 'proper democracies". All got crooked recently. Its just probably that the author of the ranking they used had some bias towards some aspects of democracy and not the others.
Record setting 541days w/o gouvernment cannot be called flawless.
Speaking of flawed democracies, didn't the Dutch *literally cannibalize their prime minister* that one time 🤔
As a neutral-minded Swiss and someone who rarely comments on RUclips videos, I feel compelled to make an effort on this one.
The question is fundamentally flawed because Eastern Europe doesn't start where Western Europe stops, it's not a dichotomy.
Central Europe is pretty well defined, encompassed between Switzerland & Germany in the west and Poland & Hungary in the east. It is our doubtless understanding (in school geography, the news, etc.) that we're not in Western Europe, and as I understand the Czech feel the same. We even have "Mitteleuropa" sports events with those countries.
Asking random internet users to assign us to Eastern/Western has no use whatsoever, except for maybe some echo chamber / polarisation effect.
Speaking of... we always smirk at news reporting in certain countries, pointing out how obvious their bias is. But then here's a video asking for European assignment, and it leaves out Russia. By our basic history education (maybe it's different in the UK...), Russia has been fully within Europe for the first few hundred years of its existence, has the vast majority of population in Europe nowadays, and is generally considered European except by some heavily biased ideologists.
It's sad to see the casualness with which videos like this take on an extreme position.
I've found this channel to be educational some times but deeply biased against Russia. It's weird to see "intelectual level" sources like this acting so petty.
I totally agree with you
I’ve worked with many Russians and honestly, outside of sport & the EuroVision (which you’ll find the likes of Isreal, Turkey and the former soviet republics in etc.) not of them considered themselves European, not even a little bit. This surprised me given the the cultural & historical links but that was their opinion, which they assured me was common.
The survey is flawed & reductive but it is interesting for perceptions, not least the difference between how residents and neighbours see themselves and each other.
Yep, agree so much with you
I know how in the world can TURKEY be on here but not Russia
The "simple" east-west might be the most common way of splitting Europe, but that doesn't make it the least ignorant one.
The history and culture of Europe are way more complicated than to be able to put European countries into two boxes, regardless of the criteria of the two boxes.
Similarly, where is the line between Southern Europe and Northern Europe? Well, we can tell for sure that the Mediterranean countries are Southern Europe and the Scandinavian countries (along with Finnland and the Baltics) are Northern Europe. But where to put all the other countries in between? Where is the exact North-South dividing line?
I can't put the V4 countries neither to North/South nor to East/West boxes. We call ourselves Central Europeans. Our culture is distinct enough of the Nordic, the Mediterranean, the Russian, the Balkanic and the British culture, so that Central Europe is a region.
For me putting Estonia, Albania and Czechia to the same box is just ridiculous. This whole east-west approach of Europe is based on ignorant cold war stereotypes and lacks the understanding of European history.
Well, you can draw vertical lines on the map of Europe, it just doesn't make much more sense than an arbitrary horizontal line on the same map.
I think that that was a lot of their point. They did this to show the arbitrary and inconsistent nature of the line.
i consider the v4 as eastern european. those nations are much more culturally similar to the former ussr nations, and the east-west divide is basically "looks russian-doesn't look russian"
@@Ray_Vun But when you compare Russia with Czechia, for example (or any other V4 country for that matter) there are big differences in Culture, Wealth and History (except the last century)
@@TheTrueYes that's not what caused the western world to make the division. it's purely a xenophobic thing. they look and sound russian enough to be mistaken as russian, so they get shoved in the mix. eastern european is basically synonym with russian looking
@@Ray_Vun You have a point there. But because of the lack of knowledge abaut the history and culture of these countries they are always called eastern even when they are in many aspects more western. In addition this term is often used as an insult.
Interesting video.
Im surprised to see that only 98% voted Portugal has as western country, when is in fact geographically is the most western country of all Europe.
Btw, i have always considered Greece as a western country.
I think what you are missing here is that the "West-East" division goes right through central europe. I would generally agree with the division being between Poland and Germany and Austria and Czechia, but i also consider all 4 of them central european. In Germany and Austria we usually don't mind being lumped in with western europe, but the central european countries on the eastern side have a very complicated history with actual eastern Europe (which is Ukraine, Belarus and Russia), so they probably don't like the label for politcal/historical reasons.
Well said
Also es ist schon eine Beleidigung, irgendwas Deutsches mit sowas wie Polen oder Tschechien oder irgend etwas anderem slawischen irgendwo in Osteuropa in Verbindung zu bringen.
@@g.f.w.6402 Ach schlimmer als mit den Inselaffen und Franzacken in einen Hut gesteckt zu werden ist es auch nicht.
@@timokohler6631 ich finde es schon beleidigend und obszön mit Osteuropäern in irgendeine Art Beziehung gesetzt zu werden. Und die Mehrheit der Deutschen auch. Neueste Statistiken zeigen, dass Polen und Tschechien die unbeliebtesten Nachbarländer mit dem mit Abstand geringsten Ansehen sind.
@@g.f.w.6402 durchschnittlicher 1938 Kommentar🗿👍🏼
Including Turkey but not Russia in Europe is a bit weird
it's almost like they have a bias
Yes I find that too. It must be Anglo Saxon hostility to Russia
since most people see "eastern europe" as "alligned with russia" what would be the point? :D and that is also why a lot of people in the east hate this east/west thing
@@kristijangrgic9841 Bitch I'm from the UK and I'm pissed that they included Turkey but not Russia.
Russia has always been it's own thing. Not European, not Asian. Even though they oppressed many countries on both sides.
Interestingly, what happened to Central Europe? I have always thought of Eastern Europe as those countries that had not been part of the western civilization - usually not using the Latin alphabet, usually not Roman Catholic or Protestant. Thus Germany, Poland, the Baltics, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic, and Slovakia are Central Europe.
Since the Angloid map-maker pushed subtle propaganda, and excluded Russia on this video on purpose, and for no reason at all, Central Europe doesn't exist anymore. Its just Eastern Europe now.
Baltics are Northern.
by that categorization you'd have to include romania in central europe which doesnt make much sense due to geography
Funny enough an eastern country as Romania, uses Latin Alphabet also the language itself resembles a lot to Italian and Spanish.
@@ramondamian5067 Cause Romanian is a Romance language just like Spanish, Portuguese, French and Italian.
How was Turkey included in the map and not Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Kazakhstan? All of them straddle between Europe and Asia.
They are talking about Europe. Georgia and Kazakhstan aren’t Europe and nobody cares about Russia
Most of these are pretty clearly Asian countries, especially Kazakhstan. And Russia is mostly in Asia and would obviously be 99.9% Eastern Europe so there is no point in including it.
Although most people cannot see this, Turkey remained in Europe for a long time. Until 100-200 years ago, there was a high Turkish population in the Balkans scattered around and most of the land was controlled by the Turks. One say they were neighboors with Austria at some point in time and they helped a lot to creation of Balkan culture.
And it is still like that. Turkey still have lands and a large population in Europe.
I am from Romania, and yes I think there is a stigma about east Europe, is mostly associated with bad things, because of economic issue, social, post communism and so on .I also had this east Europe complex, but I do not give fuck anymore I am proud to be what I am, and things are going better year by year in every east European country.
Had you added the option "Central European" most of the "unwilling to be called East"-ern countries would choose that option.
Also from an austrian point of view most younger austrians (those that have no memory of the iron curtain) would put slovenia, czechia and maybe even croatia into the western half due to historical reasons (history that happened before 1914 and after 1991) Especially since 2007, when the clearly eastern countries of romania and bulgaria joined the EU many countries at austria's eastern border moved further "west" in our understanding. On the other side many conservative austrians also have problems associating with "the west", especially france, britian or even germany (the favour Visegrád, italy and switzerland), this is mostly because of political or (in case of italy) religious reasons.
Of course you would. That is maybe the way in the Eastern European countries. They avoid talking about Eastern and prefer to divide Europe into central, north and south. I get it. It's a matter of prestige as said in the video. In the West we still tend to divide Europe in classic terms taking into account history, economics, democracy and personal freedoms, West and East that is.
Yeah for good reason because for example Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Czechia and Hungary were always dealing on their own between eachother, and if you looknat history(HRE, Austrian Empire, Austria-Hungarx etc.) Culture and so on...
Poland,Czechia,Slovakia,Hungary and Croatia.
@@panzerbanz7296 exactly
I love how many people forgot that Europe actually starts from The Ural Mountains not from the western Russian border. So if we were to draw a line that passes exactly through the middle of Europe it would fall in the Belarussian city of Vitebsk, thus many of the countries considered to be ''eastern" are geographically speaking in western Europe.
The east-west divide isn't about geopgraphy in most circumstances.
Nobody outside cartographers convention thinks geography when talking about west/east Europe, so that's a weird thing to love.
@@Kuolonen So when it comes to dividing countries into West and East in America, Asia, Africa we use geography. But in case of Europe we would not use this method? Why? Dividing it through other factors would not be usable. Cold war ended 30 years ago. Politically these countries are in totally different state now, also culturally (customs, food etc.), religion-wise, types of letters... they differ even from each orher vastly. If you think they are very similar to each other in these aspects you must be very uninformed about this region of Europe.
Exaclly, it's bother me for whole video while they exclude 20%-25% land from Europe
Exactly!
Not including " Mitteleuropa" is a big mistake. Many Poles,the Baltic Republics, Hungary,former Yugos,see themselves as MIDDLE European, not Eastern. 9:58
When I was in Czechia, I was told kindly, but firmly, that it was in Central Europe, NOT Eastern Europe.
You were told right. Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia = Central Europe.
All these places were part of the Holy Roman Empire (Germany + Italy, basically) for a thousand years. 50 years of communism can't undo that.
@@leblubblab Then so is Romania if we use that ideology, we wee under Roman empire as well. Our language is based on Latin.
It's Eastern
@@ramondamian5067 Sorry, but when exactly was Romania part of the Holy Roman Empire? Sure, you speak a Latin language, but I'm not sure that's a criterion.
@@leblubblab The proof is in the pudding, "romania". M8, we (Dacians) were conquered by the roman empire and became daco-romans. It's not that hard.
For me living in European part of Russia it was quite intimidating that it wasn't even on the survey. I could understand that politically now Russia is very separated from Europe, generally by internal rhetoric of Russian establishment, but this seemed as ignorance of historical and cultural ties of Russia and Europe. Especially when other transcontinental country, Turkey, was on the list despite having less percentage of land geographically and population residing in Europeen part that Russia did.
I can understand the reasons for non-including Russia on survey but at the end it seemed quite unlogical for me
+++, it is really strange to see a Turkey instead of Russia
Thing is, historically Russia has always been othered when it comes to Europe. Essentially the European Powers (France, Austro-Hungaria, Whatever the fuck Germany was calling itself that day, Britain, etc), for centuries, never really wanted to see Russia as one of them. So Russia in the mind of everyone from that region is not "European" despite geography having something else to say on the matter. So I am not too surprised that it's not on the survey - to this day Russia is some eastern invader or enemy that threatens Europe, just as it has always been portrayed for generations.
The inclusion of Turkey is even more baffling too, I'll admit, since it very much shares the same perceptions in the minds of Europeans, so it's odd that it was included in this one.
For him Turkey is Europan country, but Russia not...
@@JenxRodwell The Survey was made by a Brit...
That plays a large role in this.
Someone from Eastern, Central, Southern or Northern Europe might have a more nuanced view then people like him from Western Europe...
Remember that Britain was a naval power.
Byzantine, the Ottomans and Turkey all had more of a role at sea then Russia did and had more interaction with Britain.
You answered your question yourself - the reason is the political separation of Russian politics and the specific us vs them rhetoric. Also it is obviously eastern, not like it would have been a surprise to anyone. But Turkey does not seem like it belongs in the poll either tbh.
Another important factor that in my opinion would influence the results would be if you included Russia, which I don’t understand why wasn’t included..
I don't see how Russia would be a factor in any way. The vast majority of people would consider Russia the epitome of eastern Europe geographically, economically, socially and politically.
@@luiseduardogonzalezquiroz272 it whould make every nation exept russia seem more western geographycally so thats how it whould influence East west divide
its called subtle propaganda.
Yeah, I have no idea why Russia wasn't included, it somewhat detracts from the value of the poll as a result.
@@luiseduardogonzalezquiroz272 cold war lol, the east west divide clearly follows the iron curtain, even in how finland and greece landing on the west side despite their geography because they avoided becoming communist during WW2
So according to you, turkey is European and Russia is not...
In my country (Poland) we say that we are Central Europe. In Czech Republic and Slovakia it would be same I guess because our mindset is other than in eastern europe. We want to live properly and develop. Hugs for our brothers from Czechia and Slovakia.
It's worth to mention that things like democracy or equality are important to us too, however we have different opinions about the details of these virtues in compare of western European friends. I can totally see some uninformed person from Sweden thinking we hunt gay people in Poland, which is insane. It's worth to point out that being gay was never a crime in a Slavic country (except Russia) unlike in the west.
@@marekkac7046 1918-1932 Homosexuality was criminal in Poland. It was criminal in CZ until 1962. In YUG it was criminal until 1998 with Serbia being the last one to abolish it. The list would go on. Why are you telling unqualified lies "being gay was never a crime in a slavic country".... man
I think the same refers to Austria, Hungary etc. and even eastern parts of Germany.
@@borisbrosowski6630 First modern Polish criminal code was introduced in 1932 and according to these regulations homosexual relations were not a crime, which wasn't something obvious in Europe at that time. Until 1932 (from 1918 when Poland regained its independence) former regulations were in force, which had been imposed by German, Austrian and Russian law according to which homosexual intercourses were a crime. So it's true, that there was a time in Poland (at least in 20. century) when homosexuality was punished; however these laws were not introduced by Polish government, but by former occupiers' governments.
@@skkrawczyk Blah blah blah. So from 1918-1932 it was criminal to be homosexual in independent Poland, right? You instead wrote "that being gay was never a crime in a Slavic country ". That's obviously a lie (if you consider Poland being a slavic country, that is...;-)
There is a hungarian comedy movie called "Csinibaba", one of the scenes fits here. A group of people talking, one of them asks "Is Helsinki 'west'?". After a short discussion, the consensus was: "Helsinki is east-west in the north". :D
The problem of the west/east divide has also a "secret" problem. Where does Europe end? Because if Europe ends on the Russian border like you show then yeah this divide based on voters makes sense. But I think if you showed a map with the European border on the Ural Mountains then results may be different.
in this case Russia will be an ultimate "East Europe" with all patemeters (may be except religion) mentioned in the video cranked up to extreme :)
There are also a few more arguably European countries east of the Black Sea (Georgia, parts of Armenia and Azerbaijan).
I had a French colleague who was repeatedly talking about his family's cooking traditions in "East Europe". Then we realized that he refers to 'East of France. West of Switzerland, or perhaps Western Austria to the farthest shot'. He was dead serious.
💀
well those idiots think they the whole of europe probably.
Yes! East of Europe is something totally different that East of EU.
@@mikulashrubisko3325 for that guy, Europe was France. French people live in a parallel universe
@@tchugra I mean their refusal of learning any other language very much is self inflicted isolationism
In Czechia the term "Eastern European" is borderline insulting. There is about as little political, cultural and economic connection to the real Eastern Europe as there is to the Western Europe. Central Europe is the only acceptable label here. Similar to how the Eastern-Western divide makes remarkably little sense in the Nordic Countries...
It's the affect of recent history and the Iron curtain. Shrugging of the V4 countries plus Slovenia and Croatia (started as Catholic aka culturally western kingdoms) when all are older than half of the ones voted here as western is laughable. Part of it is also that most of the patrons of the channel who voted are "westerners" as well.
Pay it no mind, it's ignorance with which we have to live with for the foreseeable future. A lot of disaster tourists come here and are surprised that these countries aren't the shit holes they thought they would be, but they are still a fraction of the people who vote on these polls.
Similarly up here in Finland... it definitely in a way hurt to hear there's such doubt about where we stand in the world.
The Western-eastern divide makes ALL the sense in the world for the Nordic Countries. We are all 100% Western Countries.
Putting the Nordic Countries in the same bag as Russia would be the worst insult ever... the only thing in common would be the booze ;)
The Nordic countries as Northern Europe without Russia totally fine :)
As a swede I might consider Estonia someday in the future (perhaps) as a Northern Country, but there are major differences I think.
Finish people might see this slightly different though (the Estonia part).
@@jo1918 As a Finn, I'd agree that Estonians are in an awkward gap between the two, like a teen between childhood and adulthood.
However my gut instinct is that we're probably being a bit harsh on them based on memories from 5,10,20 years ago.
what is the real eastern europe here ? and what the real west . If you choose this path the real west is North France/England/Benelux and Real East: European Russia . Of course on this gradient it only is obvious czechs lay somewhere in between but let assure you that if you are from lets say wallonia and go to Czech rep it will feel more different than for a person from Kiev going to Czech rep too (culturally especially). Ties do exist but its crazy Central Europe has such a strong drain while it makes no sense to add if you keep east west around. Why ? Because even in "central europe" Germany is still closer to Benelux and even france than to Slovakia or Hungary. Moreover East-West makes sense because you get roughly two blocks of equal pop. Within East and West divisions still exist and it will always be very imperfect ( Lithuania/albania or Portufgal/finland are some extremes). But the more you cut the more you need to make a case for each division and quickly you realize it doesn't hold
How is Russia NOT considered Europe, whereas Turkey is?
Can you explain that to me, TLDR News EU?
geographically Russia is part of Asia, but politically part of Europe
@@buhaysaudiOfficial you should learn geography, russia is 25% europe and population is 75% in that european part and history of europe can not be talked with out russia
@@buhaysaudiOfficial Russia has a sizeable chunk in Europe
@@buhaysaudiOfficial geographically russia is part of Europe and asia its transcontinental country but culturally they're Europeans
Both shouldn't be part of Europe!
The omission of Central Europe, the exclusion of Russia and the inclusion of Turkey seems strange and tells us a lot about those, who did this study.
I agree
This study is stupid and non factual on border countries
Fuck Russia is what I say.
If turkey is European then Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are also. I would actually say that Georgia is more European than Turkey.
@@otto_jkGeorgia is fully located in the Asia. 3 percent of Türkiye is located on Europe. Also in that 3 percent more than 10 milion people leave. Due to the Ottomans Turks has strong cultural connection to Balkan nations. Even though governments are fighting each other people’s lifestyle are kinda similar.
It's funny how Russia is not in the list of European countries, while takes up about 40% of European continent..
Based on that map it seems like mostly western Europeans have voted, especially since the map itself does not depict the geographical boundaries of the European continent, but a more political perspective of it.
How is Turkey in the poll but Russia isn't? Russia is the country i'ld most strongly consider eastern european. Wereas calling Turkey european is very much debateable.
Yeah, this is weird. This channel is about Europe and keep including Turkey in everything and painting Russia as evil. But if you look on the streets, yeah, maybe Europe is in Turkey.
Because if you put Russia and the caucazian countries on the map, every other european country is in the west.
If their only debate is owning a tiny bit of Balkan area then there really is no debate.
It's like France deciding to call itself South American". Wth is EU thinking by letting Turkey apply into the EU?
Yeah, thats dumb. If a country has bits of territory in europe it is a shame they didnt include russia and the caucasus, and cyprus isnt europe. I guess its due to germany inviting more turks. After all you behave nicely to people you want to do business with.
@@olsenfernandes3634 A tiny bit also known as the city of the world's desire, and a tiny bit that has more population than that of Greece
As a Greek i would say that we are South Easterns Mediterraneans, not easterns it's totally different! When here in Greece we say east (for Europe) assume somewhere in Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, generally something slavic, all the others from the line you draw are Balkans for us. As a Greek Generally the lines are much more than just east and west. There are, west, north, east, the baltics, South or Mediterranean or east Mediterranean, north east, the balkans and Asia minor.
Οοοοοοο μερεντα
@@george5072
aaaaaaaaaa
Doesn’t matter, your culture is Byzantine, same as Russian and Serbian, so you are easterners.
@@gordonpi8674 You are 500 years behind mate
@@mrthomaschannelearth no, I am not, the culture doesn’t expire, it’s in people, in their values, in their minds, forever. The only reason somE Greeks want to be part of your western culture is the economic, and with the latest developments in the World’s economic level, there will be less and less need for that. Greeks will be back to their humane, Byzantine, non aggressive and non materialistic attitude, attitude of equality between nations and people, that they always belonged to. That’s the fact all other is worthless opinions.
If only there was some massive geopolitical entity that had control over "eastern europe" that lasted from 1945 to the 90's that explains the sentiment in about a minute.
As some have pointed out, there is an area called "Central Europe" between Eastern and Western Europe that British people might not be aware of. You look at the time zones: the Eastern time zone starts in Romania, Greece, Finland etc. That's Eastern Europe geographically . Poland, Czech Republic etc. are in Central Europe. The confusion has historical reasons (areas that were in Austria- Hungary + plus Poland are Central), religious reasons (Roman Catholic are Central, Orthodox are Eastern) and political reasons (the countries that the Soviet Union occuped after WW2 for ~ 40 years are all Eastern.) There are a lot of prejudices, and the divisions are subjective. It's more polite to speak of "Central- Eastern- Europe" and talk about "new EU member states" rather than just call Eastern Europe the "ex -Soviet bloc" and assume it is a poorer version of the West.
It would be the other way round, the term would be "Eastern Central Europe", since "Eastern" is the Adjective here.
"Central Eastern Europe" would be Moscow lol
@@MagiconIce I meant it in the sense of Central AND Eastern Europe, when the British talk about "Eastern Europe" to mean the new EU member states.
I, being Czech, take it as language thing. If Brits understand Czechia as Eastern Europe, I am will use words the way Brits will understand them, thats what words are for.
I can tell you in US and Canada, there is Western, Eastern, Mediterranean, sometimes Nordic but not central. Central was invented by People from Czech rep, etc after cold war so they would not be considered in same category as Poland, serbia or Bulgaria etc. I think it is not polite to try to change name for purpose of distancing oneself from 'lower' countries and then say, don't say 'eastern' not polite (really saying , we are not Poland! )
Being from eastern europe is not simply about poorer country. Fir example, Estonia is quite well off compared to Hungary and culturally much more open, but both considered eastern. Central Europe has no meaning, esp since some try pretend countries like Poland are 'central '! Even though most of Russia is not even Eastern European but Asian.
I don’t understand why Russia is not included as a European country. Considering that your video includes Turkey as a European country because it has a tiny part of the country in the continent of Europe, more of Russia is in the continent of Europe… your bias seems to be showing and it’s skewing you poll.
It's like calling Morroco "European" if they had Gibraltar.
Russia has always been it's on thing. Not European, not Asian. Even though they oppressed many countries on both sides.
I honestly feel the labels „Eastern“ and „Western“ (European) don’t make a lot of sense anymore. After all, the Iron Curtain has fallen more than 30 years ago… If you need labels, use those which are geographic in nature w/o any additional political connotation (Atlantic, Mediterranean, Central, Balkan Peninsula, Scandinavia/Nordic, Baltic, etc.).
I grew up in the seventies and eighties, when the Iron Curtain was still dividing Europe. Intuitively, that's still where I would put the border.
But when I try to view it rationally, with that dividing line, the eastern part of Europe would be _much_ larger than the western part, taking into account that traditionally, the European border has drawn at the Ural mountains (and in some definitions even includes countries such as Georgia).
So, in that sense, Poland (for example) would probably be more 'central' Europe than eastern, or perhaps even 'western Europe'.
The centre of Europe is around Minsk/Kiev so Yes....Poland is in Western Europe :)
@franohmsford7548 The centre of Europe is in Poland/Slovakia/Hungary. I would say that Poland is central but definitely not western.
@@franohmsford7548If we go by your logic then the only country in eastern Europe would be Russia..
@@mis_Kacerz You forget Georgia :)
@@mis_Kacerz No, the centre of Europe is in Ukraine and Belarus - Europe ends at the Ural Mountains.
Why did you guys include Turkey but not Russia?
I would quess that Russia would have been only country getting 100% east if it was included
@@samuelsilver8077 When I was voting I chose that I'm from Europe. Then They asked from which European country I am. Russia wasn't on the list so I guess it's not about that
@@samuelsilver8077 Yes but Turkey isn't even European except for the tiny bit of land West of the straight.
@@olsenfernandes3634 Majority of Russia isnt in Europe either... Majority of Russian population is though.
@@samuelsilver8077 Exactly, plus Russia is far more involved with Europe then Turkey.
Other then Byzantium, Turkey was never close to Western.
Would have been interesting to have included “central” is the options. East/west is far too binary.
I guess the result makes sense. I'm from Austria and it's always funny how we are surrounded by countries considered Eastern. So we also like to use central European, as do all of our neighbours.
Finland, Greece, Austria, Czechia and Slowenia are just really tough ones.
I was surprised that Slowenia wasn't more boarder line. Geographically it's still at the outskirts of the Alpes, it's economically similar to Czechia and shares a lot of history with Austria and Italy going back to the middle ages, and culturally any parts of Slovenia and the South of Austria are very similar.
But it makes sense. Most are actually in the east and share many traits.
So it depends if you want devide Europe in 2 halfs or if you want further subdivisions (Northern, Baltic, Balcans, Central)
@Leo the British-Filipino
Sure I'm also no fan of subsidising Europe in 2 halfs that are politically loaded terms. But I wanted to give my opinion to the topic.
Because it is used and they did at least a good job adding all the caviats.
give it 10 years and russia will have half of it back again
Finally some love from austrians to slovenias zdravo! From the border down south
@@dave_724 Unless we are military invaded there's no way we're going back. We well knew what 45 years of Comunists rule means. And even if it tries former Comunists countries are around 50% of total Russian population. And whole EU is 4 times higher. They may try to concur us but cannot hold us. I am not optimistic about Ukraine and Moldova though.
Austria itself has always been something of a transition place between west and east, how I view it anyway, it shares a lot of history with the south and a lot of immigration, way more than proper western euro places like France would
Very interesting idea! If we go all the way back to the Eurovision Song Contest 1963, we hear it introduced as a "Western Europe" contest. Yet, it contains entries from Finland, Norway, and Yugoslavia. I don't think we've ever had a real consensus about this divide because of that haha.
Somebody explain why Turkey is considered European and Russia is excluded.
because this channel is from united kingdom, and russia and uk have historical rivalry.
@@account-369 I'm from the UK and even I am pissed off by this bullshit.
It's more about this specific channel then what the West thinks about Russia because we do think that Russia is definitely more then qualified to be a European country.
@@olsenfernandes3634
*His last name is "Fernández*
"But I am from the UK" 🤣🤣🤣
Sure thing, pal 🤣🤣🤣
@@XavierbTM1221 you know there is a thing called "immigration" and "moving abroad", right?
@@thodorispapa9864 Thank you
Would be interesting if you showed the map if only residents of that country voted. I’m assuming your audience is majority western so they denied the status of a western country to anyone behind the former iron curtain. I think that the Baltic countries, Czechia, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia would call themselves western.
They call them “Central Europe”.
We'd call ourselves Central.
East-West split is outdated, the sooner it dies the better for everyone involved.
Poland likes to split the difference and call thmselves "Central European"...
@@Psychphuq It's not about Poland, even if Poland is the largest of the Central European countries.
I'm Romanian and I voted Eastern for all of those countries and yes, I did use the Iron Curtain + Greece and Cyprus (for being Orthodox). Funny thing is, the actual centre of the continent is in Ukraine or Poland, so the only pure East is Russia (considering European Russia covers about 1/3 of all of Europe). But I don't get why would the term Eastern "carry baggage"? Ok, we're poorer, so? We had 45 years of communism imposed on us at gunpoint. I'd get feeling ashamed if we had chosen that of our own free will, but we never did. It was imposed by the Allies after WW2. I at least am proud we managed to survive such a destructive regime and while I see myself as European, I do feel a special attachment for the Eastern countries, we endured together and they can understand. I don't care if the UK left the EU, I'm kinda happy we got rid of them, but I would feel sad if the same happened to Poland or Hungary.
The map is a bit misleading since geographically western russia is part of europe.
I would add central europe including germany,poland,austria,czech republic,slovakia,hungary,slovenia and croatia.
"slovakia, hungary, slovenia and croatia" as central?
@@Luredreier I think so If you look at a map of all of geographical europe.Perhaps without croatia but the others fit.
@@Aestholus It is actually just my perception but I think Poland is Eastern Europe, Croatia is more suitable to be Balkans. Hungary is East. Germany is West. Slovenia is in the hole of nowhere(just kidding =) )
The above is just a personal perception, based on history and my understanding of the countries. And a bit of sarcasm
@M G Google Balkan Peninsula - it will tell you Croatia is 46% in it. Balkan isn't just a mountain, or mountain area in Bulgaria. So yes, please do check the maps. Thanks!
I also like to look at the east-west question culturally. I usually joke that austria is the most western eastern european country, mostly because i see so much shared culture due to the history of KuK austria. For example a lot of traditional eastern european foods are also traditional austrian foods, just with a different name. my bosnian friend and i (from eastern austria) have more in common than me and my german friends. i think this historical connection is something to consider. also, of course, most of what we today think of as eastern is basically ex-soviet nations. there are a lot of people in the comments pointing out that it is now more useful to have a central-west-east-south divide and i totally agree with that
I think the answer is just that people are always closest to their neighbors. As a German who grew up in the south west and now lives in Bavaria, I felt very close to France for most of my life, but now feel closer to Czechia. When I hop over the border, the food in Czechia is very similar to the one in Bavaria. Historically, there'S also huge connections of course. So, since you're from eastern austria it makes perfect sense. Certainly though a person from Linz wouldn't say that bavarian food is completely different. I think this is probably the flaw of any such divisions, now. Cause ultimately we all feel probably closest to our neighbors (unless we have proper reason to hate them). So, if the line happens to be drawn right east to your country, it would seem odd. Cause I don't know about Austria and Germany, but certainly Austria and Spain feel much further apart than Austria and Slovakia. And as a German, as much as I've never had any issues with any Irish people, Czechia or Poland are just much closer. Whether I as a German feel more connected to our western or eastern neighbors depends entirely on where I live.
Yeah Austria very much has a Central european identity like Czechia
Tbh, the upper most eastern part are the Ural Mountains. And the most southern part are the Caucasian mountains. Overall, you should’ve included Russia, Georgia and Azerbaijan.
What about Armenia?
@@davidfalconer2879 it’s below the Caucasian mountains. Even tho, culturally it’s closer to Europe.
I agree. Most of Russia's population is in Europe. The most recognised eastern border between Europe and Asia (the Ural Mountains and Ural River) is within Russia and Kazakhstan. The South Eastern border runs along the Caucasus Mountains.
If Turkey is to be considered part of Europe, with only a small fraction of the country in Europe (only the part of the Marmara Region north/west of the Turkish Straits), then Russia, Kazakhstan, Georgia and Azerbaijan should also be considered part of Europe.
Those 5 nations are in *both* Europe and Asia.
That's the real Europe to me. I also think Turkey is borderline europe
Showing people map without including mentioned countries could provide slightly different results than with more typical Europe borders at Ural and Caucasus.
Greece is in Southern Europe, though, not Eastern. Calling Greece Eastern European is a bit like calling France part of Northern Europe just because it sits on the coast.
Well Greece sits at southernmost part of Balkan peninsula which is South Eastern Europe. So Greece if we decide to go binary is unequivocally Eastern Europe both due geography and its history and culture up to Cold War. Noone would count European Turkey as Western Europe. Its cos ppl see the term as political with only late 20th century connotations and not as actual geographical term you've got problem with it. Is it problematic to count Cambodia as part of southeastern Asia just like Singapore or Thailand? No? Then Greece as part of( South) Eastern Europe shouldn't raise anyones eyebrow either.
France also sits on the equator, which is why the JWST was launched (last saturday) from that piece of France.
@@rehurekj
Culturally, historically, geographically and socially it has more in common with other Mediterranean/Southern countries (Italy, Spain, Cyprus) than with the Balkan (majority Slavic population) and the east continental Europe.
@Vasili YT hardly. If you wanna divide Europe to 2more or rather less cohesive but somewhat logical blocks by combining our intertwined national histories, cultures, geographies, ethnicities etc and not just postww2 US foreign politics then Greece deffo falls firmly into the east one- the orthodox/ muslim ottoman/ russian one rather than catholic/ protestant germano/ romance block like Italy.
That's the only binary division of Europe that generally makes sense taking into account more than economy and welfare/ tax policies and changing and no longer so distinct social attitides regarding religion( like the north south division) and the border runs thru Polish- lithuanian commonwealth and along turkish- hungarian later austrian frontier thus approximately along today's Schengen border.
Culturally and historically even ancient Mediterranean and later roman world was divided that way- latin( and punic and celtic) west and greek( and persian and later turkish and slavic) east and we are still divided along more or less the same lines 2thousand years later.
Greek is orthodox christian. Orthodox Christiantiy is since 1000 years back affiliated with eastern europe.
I think that Central Europe is also a big thing. I would add North/ South divide also. Its not only West/ East.
For Example from Baltic to Adriatic there is a distinct culture that mixes western and eastern influences.
From Lithuania, Estonia, through Poland, Czechia, Hungary to Croatia we could speak about this central European culture. Austro-Hungarian Empire heritage is big thing here that gave this mixed identity. Another example is big influence of Venetian Republic on Croatia which give Croatian coast an "Italian look".
I don't think an East vs West divide is useful. Personally, I always divide Europe as West, Central, East, North, South and Balkan.
Central Europe is the hardest region to define but I usually think of it as Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. I can definitely see why people would disagree with me though
It definitely depends on your perspective, as someone living in and from the Arctic parts of Norway "Europe" seems like this distant southern continent, after all the only land-border we share with a the continent is our neighbour Russia.
So for me East/West doesn't matter its north and south whereas every European country outside of the Arctic (including Denmark) is Southern Europe. Now I'm sure Southern Europeans such as the Germans, turks Belarusians would identify with eachother so preferably the entire North/South or East/west divide isn't the best to use...
Not that I even claim to be European...
@@jubmelahtes well your on the European tectonic plate so you technically are European. You don’t have to identify as that but I’m just sayin.
@@rigrag7876 Baltics are not Central, they're Northern.
Everything u said was correct but socioeconomically the Baltics are Northern European
To my mind, eastern European countries are the ones using the cyrillic aphabet and historically orthodox. Czech Republic or Poland culturally has actually more in common with Germany than with Russia/Ukraine/Belarus. That is why this classification between western and eastern does not really make a lot of sense without considering central Europe as well.
We have most in common with the Baltics and Ukraine than we do with Germany. It depends what region you are from.
Stop insulting Germany
@@personalbranddataGermany insults itself every day with its unnaturally prolonged existence after 1945. Nowadays its just another station for the Americans
Why wasn't Western Russia included on the map? It takes up 40% of Europe, And about 50% with the former CIS countries.
and about 90% of Russia's population
Because he is stupid enough not knowing that
Armenia, Georgia and Azeriland are also part of Europa 🤗
@@XavierbTM1221 no they arent they are wholly asian why? because the caucus mountain range is Europes Border 1 is muslim and these people dont share heritage with Europeans apart from Armenians linguistically
What were the metrics that resulted in Ireland being given a low rating on LGBT rights? I'm curious because it doesn't seem to reflect attitudes in the country. Ireland was if I remember correctly the first country to legalize same sex marriages by popular vote (with a landslide of overwhelming support) AND to enshrine that right for same sex couples in the constitution. All discrimination based on sexual orientation, including incitement to hatred is illegal. Same sex couples (and singles) have full rights with regard to access to adoption services & IVF treatments. The country had a gay head of government (prime minister) who was quite popular when he was in office. Gay and Lesbian individuals can openly serve in the armed forces. Religious schools are not permitted to dismiss staff or discriminate based on sexual orientation. A bill making conversion "therapy" illegal was on track to pass easily but got disrupted by COVID.
Probably typical English arrogance
@@oscarosullivan4513 Your comment is in itself arrogant.
meta-meta arrogrance
While now Ireland are very good with LGBT rights, their LGBT treatment were quite bad until about the mid-90s iirc.
I was a bit surprised too. From the point of view of LGBT+ rights, Ireland is very advanced.
Perhaps they wanted to refer to the rights of women, in particular as far as abortion is concerned?
The frugal four is colored in wrong Finland is not a part of the frugal four, Sweden is.
Exactly what i wanted to comment on, the frugal four consists of Austria, Denmark, the Netherlands and Sweden.
Europe ends in Ural mountains and I see you do not count with this fact.
For me, the Western/Eastern division was for the most part based on the Cold War and the separation between the USA/NATO and the USSR/Soviet Bloc. For that reason, I agree with the final result except Greece. However, it was harder than I expected.
Correct. I don't know if east and west Europe was a term ever used before the Cold War.
So piling the V4 with countries like Belarus is completely correct and okay with you?
you're wrong, the culture is different also, eastern europe is mainly orthodox and has been under big eastern empires like Russia and the Ottomans, while the West was more free and competitive, their isolation from the Eastern invasions allowed them to form stronger societies with less corruption and more inovation. We eastern europeans tried to imitate the West.
@@TheBooban It was, actually the term "central Europe" and "central-eastern Europe" were also terms created before the cold war
For Greece it is obvious: Greece is a longstanding member of the EU/EC/EEC (since 1981) and NATO. Hence the vote to be "western" despite its geographic location.
The reason why many, may put Greece in the west has to do with history. more precise because of ancient Greece and the contribution to the west civilization many associate it with west. The thing is, that we Greeks see ourselves as Eastern Europeans not the negative way as people associate it today but because we as Greeks always" prefer" the east and have historically move east wards, culturaly, religiously, and more are closer to east than west.
@@dnkal2875 Yeah that said it doesn't make sense. Remember history class? Roman Empire? The EAST part of the Roman Empire spoke Greek not Latin. The WESTERN part of the Roman Empire spoke Latin not Greek. Same after the fall of the Byzantine empire where the Greek influence of the western Mediterranean almost completely vanished. This connection you make may apply by for scholars of philosophy or history but not for nowadays humans. They are coined by Greece being a member of Western organisations like NATO, EFTA and later the EEC/EC/EURATOM/EU. [Edit: but sure, Greeks seeing themselves more of Easterners makes culturally, historically and by being mostly orthodox Christians sense.]
@@popelgruner595 I don't exactly understand what you try to say in the start . But what I said is, that for common people when Greece came to mind the majority only associated with ancient Greece and it contributions to the west. And because of that they associate it with the west. I don't say is the only reason I just say what probably is the most common reason. As for the scholars it may be the other way around because they focus not only in ancient history they have a more brood view.
It would be interesting to create a poll with more nuanced divides: western, northern, eastern, central & southern, since this divide is quite generic and leaves strange results for countries like Finland or Cyprus
It's a fine idea but I think that this system would work even better if we could choose 2 options. So for example X country is first "northern" and second "western" european but Y country is first "southern" and second "central" european etc. It would probably help remove that cold war division which is making less and less sense every year.
@@ThePaciorr That is maybe the way in the Eastern European countries. They avoid talking about Eastern and prefer to divide Europe into central, north and south. I get it. It's a matter of prestige as said in the video. In the West we still tend to divide Europe in classic terms taking into account history, economics, democracy and personal freedoms, West and East that is.
@@KrlKngMrtssn Idk. I still think Northen european works better for sweden or finland than western european. Same for southern european being more matching for eg. spain compared to western which works the best for Benelux, France, UK, Ireland, Switzerland and say Germany.
@@KrlKngMrtssn Speak for yourself.
I live in Norway and I find it offensive to be labeled as "western" rather then "northern".
The island of Man, Scotland, all the nordic countries and all the Baltic countries are *not* in either of the two categories of this video, but Northern Europe.
And Germany, Poland, Czechia, Switzerland and Austria and Lichtenstein doesn't belong in the two either, being Central European (there's more Central European countries, but those are the first that pops up in my mind when thinking of Central Europe).
Greece, Italy, the whole Iberian peninsula, Cyprus, Malta and the European part of Turkey isn't in either of the two categories but in Southern Europe.
The Balkans...
Is complicated...
Some of the countries there belongs in Central Europe, some in Southern Europe and some, like Serbia in Eastern Europe I feel.
I'd place Romania, Bulgaria, Belarus and Serbia in Eastern Europe myself.
That said I'm less familiar with the southeastern parts of the continent and might make different evaluations of countries there then someone local with more detailed knowlege about the regions in question.
@@Luredreier of course you prefer to be labelled as Northern. It's more prestigious. But being offended if described as western is maybe a bit over the top. Didn't think you are so sensible up there, sorry
It is pretty hard to draw such line because for example one of the biggest inspirations for Western culture come from Greece, which falls into the Eastern team in various categories. Another example is Italy, which has in almost all categories ranked similar results as Greece and other Eastern countries but yet it was a 99% West vote. Other examples could be Czechia and Slovenia which in an Easterners point of view look too Western (ex. Slovenia in the Balkans) but got barely in the East side.
You haven't seen Poland. Currently about 1/5 of Poland was Prussian which is literally the creator of united Germany. Not only mentioning that our lands were German, Russian and Austrian which makes our country split into two sides.
@@recordofragnarokisapurehyp6660 Yeah but that is completely irrelevant now. Prussia is gone and so are its people. No one cares about demographics that are 70 years out of date
Greece and Italy are Southern Europe!
The East/West Divide is a Cold-War holdover NOT a Geographical term!
Both Greece and Italy {along with Finland in Northern Europe} are considered Western Europe because they weren't associated with the Soviet Union.
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Also the Centre of the Continent is around Minsk and Kiev so in fact every nation west of Belarus and Ukraine is actually in Western Europe!
How did you chuckleds forget to mention the former Iron Curtain in this video?
That's literally how the continent used to be divided and many people still go by that line when making the distinction.
The only iron curtain I know was a thing to build in command and conquer lmao
Why did you include Turkey but not Russia?
Both have European territories and significant cultural and historic ties to Europe, so both should qualify.
But if you had to choose between one or the other, Russia should surely be on the list, as the size of Russia's territory in Europe is significantly larger, than Turkey's and culturally Russia is also closer to what's generally considered "European". And and most things of significance in Russia happen in the European half, while most of Turkey's important centres are solidly in Asia Minor (well, unless you consider that also part of Europe).
Russia was for centuries a big part of Europe history,still considered n7 many an European (Eastern) Country , Turkey is perceived as middle East Asia
@@rhythmicmusicswap4173
Im not quite sure, but Turkey/Ottoman Empire used to hold vast territories in Eastern/Balkan Europe for hundreds of years, their presence in Europe is as long lasting as Russia, which, oddly enough possese far more territory in Asia than in Europe
@@rhythmicmusicswap4173 But your comment is further cementing the question of "why was it left out?".
@@XavierbTM1221 : And you could add the fact, that since times of Acient Greece until the Islamic conquest Asia Minor was liked more to Europe than its Asian neighbours.
But still, this does leave the Question, why Russia was left out. Even with the larger part of its territory being in Asia, the people and Culture in those territories are overwhelmingly European.
Most important center is Eastern Thracia for Turkey this part of Turkey has 20 millions population and most industrial and develop region of all balkans also %70 of all wealth and financial center is in İstanbul so Istanbul and Eastern Thrace dominantly and decisively most important center in Turkey Also Aegean Regions always called as Near East
I love how Russia isn’t even Europe anymore
A correction, Hungary is definetely in the Shengen area.
To split Europe in Eastern and Western Europe is a relic of the Cold War and, to no surprise, the poll reflects that with the dividing line being very similar to the Iron Curtain.
If you go by distinct cultures and geography you end up with Southern, Western, Central , Northern, South-Eastern and East Europe.
Ataraktes
Exactly. What is the purpose of this poll? Spreading an antiquated worldview?
They should have included a option "reject an east-west assignment".
Agreed, although I must add that those 6 groups you mentioned will overlapse a bit too. Propably even more than with east/west divide. Again Greece, Iberia and Baltics come to my mind.
Thanks! Exactly.
I mean culturally the East-west split works too, separating romance and Germanic cultures from the more Slavic ones
@@papaicebreakerii8180 There is no slavic culture. It is an ethnic group and not even really. It's really mostly only about the ethymology of the languages. If you look at genetic composition among slavs then Poles have as much genetic similarity to Serbs as they have with Swedes and Russians are more similar to Baltic peoples than to other slavs.
EDIT: Then you can look at religion and it turns out west slavs for example have more common holidays and traditions with anglos than with east slavs even though the distance difference is not supporting that theory.
Also, How is Germanic and Romance cultures "west" and Slavic "east" and how does germanic and romance has so much more in common together than for example germanic and slavic? What supports your thesis here? Imprinted psyche from cold war era and that's it.
Give some examples and elaborate on your statement if you want to change my mind.
Personally I'm more surprised that Turkey is in the list at all considering only the relatively tiny part west of the Bosporus is actual Europe while the rest is Asia.
i am more surprised that that´s the only trans-continental nation on the list, if you let turkey in why not georgia, azerbaijan or kazakstan?
Not actually true, that divide of Asia and Europe isn't official anywhere. The region also has close historic ties with Europe culturally going back to at least the bronze age with Greek colonists. There's not geographical official definition of Europe. The divide is entirely cultural and subjective. It's a single continental plate without a clear break. There some possible ones, Black Sea, Bosphorus , Caucasus Mountains, etc but none of them divide the continents entirely.
So Turkey might not feel European to you, you could totally argue it but it's not an objective fact nor is it's inclusion into Europe's sphere baseless.
Turkey is an odd one, it could very well be considered either or both. It comes down to preference and politics. I find Turkey to be European, being its most Southern border. Azerbaijan, Georgia and Russia filling up the other edges of our beautiful continent
If you talk about culture then this whole Europe-Asia divide is stupid (it is), Europe shares a similar culture, but in Asia, the Chinese, Indian, and Middle Eastern cultures are just as unrelated and vastly different to each other as to the European culture. There should be just an Eurasian continent and it should merely be a geological concept.
Relatively tiny part that has more population than Belarus
Eastern Europe is a political term referring to countries that were behind iron curtain. Im from Poland, my town is directly at the border with Germany. It is 1,5 hour drive to Berlin which is in Western Europe. Doesn't seem like Im crossing to western europe just by crossing the border which is a few miles from where I live. If you would put Moscow on your map as a part of Europe which it geographically is, you would see that Poland is actually in the middle of Europe. That line goes likely through the middle of Poland rather than at it's western border. That is why we say we live in central eastern europe rather than eastern europe. Sweden is north of Poland and is definitely not eastern Europe. Funny thing is that Greece is definitely in eastern Europe according to your polls since all the balkan countries north of it are, yet nobody ever calls it eastern europe. I would say that the wealth is the major reason why we call some countries eastern or western. Nobody calls Sweden or Finland eastern because they are wealthy and were never part of the iron curtain. That being said I do not agree with the line you have drawn even though it is a commonly used line. I am also pretty confident saying that Prague is in western europe.
The line probably goes through the old pre WW2 Polish-German border.
@@hves9409 more likely thru the border of Prussia, Russia and Austria at the time of the Partition of Poland.
LIAR NO POLISH GUY I EVER SAW KNEW WHAT A HELL A MILE WAS.Thats just impossible odds.
Lol Poles are Eastern Europeans mate, just deal with it and stop trying to be German or Austrian (if anyone is central, its only them).
@@pistolpetetc what definition of Europe, and what definition of "central" and "west" or "east"? I like the geographical definition. If you like the cold war definition then Poland is in the east. By the cultural definition (west depicting everything "european" in opposition to "asian", roman or anglo-saxon inspired) then Poland is in the center, or even more west (especially nowadays). So which is it?
Why there is just half of european continent? Draw complete continent map with that large part of russia, and you'll see that Poland, Czechia and Slovakia are clearly in the center of it. That's why they call themselves central european states.
Its totally true that Eastern is viewed as a negative term. As someone from Hungary, I'd never call it Eastern and always refer to my county as Central Europe.
By removing Russia from the map you added bias as Europe doesn’t end on Belarusian border.
Not to mention having just two categories, ignoring Northern, Central and Southern Europe...
I feel quite uncomfortable with the label "western" for Norway, to put it mildly...
Just as I would with "eastern".
We're *northern*, and honestly I find the label "western" a bit offensive...
I think it more has to do with NATO v. Eastern Bloc. The numbers such as GDP and etc. are be a result of the fall of the USSR, thus stereotyped.
and that some people just looked at a map and doesn't know the nations. I put lots of nations at west because I believe that eastern countries are the ones that have a high Slavic population.
Finland is definitely western because of its culture and traditions are more Nordic and western.
I actually thought that was the official definition.
I think the reason Greece appeared more western for mapviewers was the proximity between Greece and southern Italy
Lots of Factors, it is Mediterranean European like South Italy & Spain…it is the foundation of European History, and it has even given the name Europe to the continent itself! Also been in the EU for a while, Nato Country, and also is Politically Western. Never fell under communism, is not Slavic etc
As someone born in Romania, I have wrestled with the term Eastern European for most of my life - given the many negative connotations it has in the West. Yet, of course... Eastern Europe is a thing, and if would get over prejudices and use the term without some sort of value attached to it, it would be useful.
The most common meaning for Eastern Europe is simply post-communist Europe - everything east of the former Iron Curtain. This of course, has some merit to it, as those countries do share Communism and the situation it generated in their recent history. Abandoned industry, underdeveloped economies, Soviet-style apartment blocks (that many still live in), a corrupt political class, a break from from pre-WWII social order, and a reactionary present that tries to make up for said break. So, post-Communist Eastern Europe is a thing, but it classifies its "members" almost entirely based on less than 100 years of their history and either ignoring or making generalizations regarding their cultures. (I also sometimes joke that this take on "Eastern Europe" sort of makes Eastern Europeans into what Mexicans are for the US. - no offence intended; Mexicans, Eastern Europeans, and indeed most people everywhere are all lovely)
But if we go beyond only recent history, there are other ways of coming up with valid definitions of "Eastern Europe." We can look at past multinational European empires, for example. They still leave a cultural mark today. Where did Russian influence end? Where did German influence start and how would we classify Ottoman influence?
Likewise, we can look at historical religion. There is a line between Orthodox Christianity and Catholic/Protestant Europe. Orthodox countries are of course culturally more akin to Greece/Russia, while Catholic/Protestant populations have a more Occidental identity. Again, similarly to the former-empires method of division, there emerges a northern and a southern strand of Eastern-Europeanness. It also makes it clear that dividing East from West (or North from South for that matter) doesn't necessarily have to happen along the borders of nation states. While we can maybe judge how Western or Eastern Poland or Ukraine are as a whole, culturally speaking, we can also argue for a West/East divide within them. The East of Poland is Orthodox and belonged to the Russian Empire, while the West and South was under German influence and is staunchly Catholic. Ukraine also has Catholics and Greek Catholics in its West (former Austrian Empire), but more interestingly, perhaps, there is a strong linguistic divide: a Ukrainians-speaking West and a Russian-speaking East.
But, in this same sense - it is worth asking what merit the term "Western European" has beyond an umbrella term for "the part of Europe that was not under Communism." What makes Western Europe Western beyond the fact that it escaped the clutches of Stalin?
To me, personally, Western Europe only really makes sense if it incorporates NL, BE, LUX, FR, UK, CH, and IE. That's about it. These countries have a more intertwined history, a long democratic tradition (in the case of BE and IE as successor states and LUX is an outlier) and a resistance to totalitarian ideologies in the 20th century. (Not to mention crazy rents and restaurant prices in the present... jeesh).
This same corner of the continent has somewhat dominated the modern history of Europe as a whole. The Dutch Golden Age, the Industrial Revolution, Colonialism, the French Revolution, etc. Of course, given Spain and Portugal's early imperial ambitions, this would nudge them towards being considered in the same category, but I would merely consider them the "Western" (not geographically speaking) Southern Europeans.
Where does this leave European cultural behemoths like Germany and Italy then? Well, the hugely useful concept of "Central Europe" must come into play here. Italy, here may be considered as "Central" Southern Europe. Italy, of course, extremely influential in the late Middle Ages, becomes a bit of a secondary player in the modern age with its small competing states. Similarly Germany is disjointed and until the dominance of Prussia that brings it up to speed with the West, merely reacts to what is going on in France and the UK. German imperial ambitions are mostly constrained to the European continent (Eastwards), thus bringing many peoples to Germany's East under its influence and cementing a trans-national Central European culture. This culture absolutely still stands today and ignores the former Iron Curtain. The non-German Central European identity is what makes the Visegrad4 countries such good palls. But it is also what makes Bavaria so similar to Czechia.
In any case, I think I've made my point and I do not intend to bore you with my views as I am no person of any import.
If you read through my comment and made it this far, I thank you and I hope you will also share your views or maybe reply to me in case you disagree of have something to add.
As a final note:
No matter which corner of the continent is the most considered the most "European" at any given point, we must always remember that time flows at the same pace everywhere, people - made of the same stuff - lived and live everywhere and that the same amount of history took place everywhere. As such, it is a shame how much we are taught about some countries in "European History" classes, while completely ignoring others. This also hugely contributes to the unhelpful East/West divide that stereotypes peoples based on a superficial knowledge of relatively recent events.
Spain and Portugal aren't geographically Western? They're the two Westernmost countries in mainland Europe, and only Ireland or Iceland are further West (Madrid being further West of London, whereas Lisbon is further West of Dublin). How is that NOT Western Europe?
@@ivanmacgar6447 I am not talking about them from a geographic perspective
What you're saying about Poland doesn't make sense. Even east of Poland is overwhelmingly Catholic, not Orthodox. And I mean overwhelmingly since various Orthodox churches in total have 1% of presence. Polish borders were moved west after WW2 so former parts of Poland are now parts of Ukraine and Belarus whilst parts of eastern Germany are now Polish however there were major resettlements happening so population of Poland in homogeneous with Catholic Poles mostly.
Well lets not pretend east and west division of europe has anything to do with actual geography( Finland), economy( Slovenia or Czechia) or their thousand years of history- except less than 50years during last half of 20th century.
Lets call it what it is- postcommunist Europe but if we dont want to be hypocrites then we have call analogously the other half postfascist Europe- its the same logic during 20th century many of those states- Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, even formally independent France during WW2, were fascist and didnt turn communist after the WW2 and thus should be label as such in perpetuity just like their former communist counterparts.
You are already seeing that with Slovenia, Czechia and so on, that they are considered much less Eastern. My guess is that we will seem them trying to be considered Central Europe, with the Baltics being considered Nordic and Eastern Europe ending up being Slavic non EU countries, aminly Russia, Ukraine, Belarus.
Greece was also never communist, but seems to be considered Eastern.
Rip Croatia then, both fascist and communist XD
@Olaf Sikorski thats the case of every formerly fascists state in postcommunist europe. Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, even post Munich czecholovakia and late interwar Poland had certain fascist tendencies.
@@rehurekj You're not wrong, however for interwar Poland had an authoritarian government formed by the (formerly?) socialist party. It was actively persecuting only activists: nationalist, communists as well as nazi sympathisers to suppress political dissidents. That's quite a bit different from what the Ustaše brought upon Croatia.
"Well lets not pretend east and west division of europe has anything to do with actual geography( Finland)"
You could justify that geographically by also considering Northern and Southern Europe separate from Eastern and Western Europe. That way you can also count Greece as Southern rather than Eastern. You could also count Central Europe separately though that would make things quite messy.
Well, dividing Europe into East and West is not really useful, this result was pretty predictable (Post communist countries = East, the rest is West). It would be a lot more interesting to see people drawing the line of Central Europe e.g.
I agree, they should have added the 'central' option
But then we have to spolit countries, like Germany. The border of Central Europe does not follow post WWII borders.
@@shion3948 West Europe = British Isles and Ireland, France, Belgium, Netherland, East Frisia
Central Europe = Germany, Czechia, Slovakia, Austria, Switzerland, Italy (North of former Papal territory), Poland, Pannonia, Slovenia, Slavonia, Wallachia
Southeast Europe = Balkaner, rest of Croatia, Turkish Thrace
South Europe : Rest of Italy, Spain, Portugal, Malta, Roussillon,
North Europe : Denmark, Schleswig, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Karelia, Estonia
East Europe = North of Caucasus and West of Ural Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, Moldavia, Podlasie,
@@MasonGreenWeed why would Podlasie be East
'm curious if hypothetically after World War 2 no country in Europe was dominated or influenced by the former USSR, let's say everyone in the former Warsaw Pact (besides the USSR itself) was in the NATO and a Western-style democracy, would there even be a discussion what is Eastern and what is Western Europe? Would it then be purely geographical discussion with no political connotation? I wonder how would that work then>>>
The border between east and west is marked by... cathedrals. The last countries of the west are: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia. Farther away there are no cathedrals, there is Orthodoxy and the east of Europe begins.
The final line clearly shows the legacy of the Iron Curtain. I think however, that this line will move further to the east as time passes and if we don't start a WW3 in Europe and maybe calm down the Balkans, then the current East can be a huge geopolitical force, such as the current west. If both East and West rises up, then we can welcome another century of western hegemony in the world.
I think that main risk would be the Russian meddling and assualts from the east, not a war in the Balkans. .
Good luck starting a hegemony with countries with birth rates of 1.3 or lower though, it's as bad east as it is west
east rising?
eastern european countries have largest brain drain, lowest fertility rate, high rate of corruption, etc.
east will always be, what it always was, it it the fate of the east.
and communism finally put the nail in the coffin of the eastern countries.
@@account-369 to be fair it's not the same for all of them, look at Poland, they're on track to reach the level of Italy at the very least, all you need to do is root out corruption to advance to Italy level or so
@@AngelSonevski
and what is the fertility rate of italy and poland?
The separation in east and west is artifical. What's about "Central Europe" a widely used term for the region of these countires: Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Cechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary and Poland
"Central Europe" makes no sense
Cechia made my day..
+some parts of Serbia, Ukraine and Romania
@@deepderp8483 Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Lithuania are neither western or eastern so what would you call them?
@@gukutto Lmao. Now Lithuania is a part of your so-called "Central Europe". What's next? Belarus and Ukraine?
It's kind of ironic that Greece is seen as one of the most western countries among those that are geographically in the east, despite its culture being almost synonymous with the EASTERN Orthodox Church- one of the biggest differentiating factor between the East and the West culturally, and I assume, one of the reasons people started to consider seeing Europe as being east/west divided in the past, before the times of the Iron Curtain (I may be wrong on that but that was always my understanding of why that kind of divide would even make sense). Then the Iron Curtain thing happened and people had already been predisposed to think about the east/west divide but now the fact who was communist in the mid XX century became the main determinig factor of what's considered east and west, especially for Americans and Western Europeans, but that left some countries feeling "out of place" being lumped into the eastern camp, as for the majority of their history they had closer cultural ties with the West than with the East.
When you mention ties what is your historical East then : only Russia, or Orthodxy ? is Historical West the area of the Roman EMpire in Europe ? Slavic - non Slavic is also a big divide (which explains a bit greece's position)
Greece and Rome's history basically hardcarry them into Western.
Also Iron Curtain.
I would consider Greece to be a hybrid.
@@olsenfernandes3634 when Rome was one united empire then yes, there was 1 civilization spanning Europe. After they split the Latins and the Greeks developed differently and spread their civilization differently. The truth is that modern western civilization is Frankish, whereas Eurasian civilization is Greek.
I would have thought that west would be represented by Catholics and Protestants, and eastern represented by Orthodox and Islam.
I would really like to hear a feedback from tl;dr why even after saying "there is 47 countries in Europe depending on how you're counting" they still didn't put Russia on the list. U.N., for example, puts Russia in the European region.
It's almost as if tl;dr is insisting.
(Just a Russian person wondering what's up with that)
My guess is that they just figured that Russia (and Kazakhstan, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia) would score as Eastern by a very high margin.
But even so I agree it would've been better to include them.
@@petrograd4068When I voted I was asked whether I'm from Europe. I chose 'yes'. Then I was a list of European countries to choose from and Russia wasn't on the list. Which is pretty ouch
@@petrograd4068 and they did not apply the same for Spain and Portugal being Western?
@@mrmosaic7996 Yeah, makes sense. Honestly I thought it was included I didn't even notice they skipped it when I filled the questions in.
@@hofimastah Apparently not. I don't think there's any good excuse for it, I just think that's why they did it.