I always thought of the Medes as a kind of Proto-Achaemenids, where the Persians just picked up where the Medes left off. Clearly that is a distorted perspective. Thanks for the video 👍
Correction: now that I have watched the full video, I understand that the Median "Empire" probably did not exist. I am now curious to learn more about the Elamites, since it seems they played a much more prominent role than traditional historiography allocates to them
Fantastic video as always. The issue today is that a lot of people are too emotionally and ideologically devoted either in blindly believing anything Herodotus claimed or in believing that the Median empire existed.
I don’t understand this Herodotus cult. It shouldn’t be that wild to understand that it’s useful to read Herodotus but equally he was fallible and not unquestionable.
@@ebrim5013 some people think that if an ancient writer wrote something, it must automatically be a fact that can’t be questioned or dismissed. Some people have other ridiculous reasons for why they cite him as a purely factual source.
@@arman_1024 I think its just a general holdover from 19th and 20th century historiography, which was such a "Western" phenomenon really, and the Greeks were considered "Western", even though they were really very far east from England 🤨 This history of how these biases develop, is fascinating in and of itself.
Maybe the Medo-Persian Empire was like Yugoslavia. For most of its history it was dominated by Serbia, but for a brief time when it was a German satellite state it was dominated by Croatia.
when was Yugoslavia dominated by Croatia? the German satellite you're thinking about was the Independent State of Croatia, a fascist regime that built itself up on being the antithesis of Yugoslavia lol
@@enderman_666 The Nazi puppet state of Yugoslavia was Croat dominated because the Croats happened to be the Serbs' internal rival. Although the details get complicated with collaborators, autonomous states, and guerrillas.
"In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.” - 2 Kings 17:6 "And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel unto Assyria, and put them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes:” - 2 Kings 18:11 "And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a roll, and therein was a record thus written:” - Ezra 6:2 "If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she.” - Esther 1:19 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.” - Isaiah 13:17 "And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes,” - Jeremiah 25:25 "Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance of his temple.” - Jeremiah 51:11 "Prepare against her the nations with the kings of the Medes, the captains thereof, and all the rulers thereof, and all the land of his dominion.” - Jeremiah 51:28 "Peres; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.” - Daniel 5:28 "Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.” - Daniel 6:8 "Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.” - Daniel 6:12 "Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed.” - Daniel 6:15 "In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;” - Daniel 9:1 "Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,” - Acts 2:9 The Bible mentions the Medes many times and even late dating of Biblical layers would put it before Herodotus. (Except Acts.) "The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.” - Genesis 10:2 (Madai here likely being Media.) "The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.” - 1 Chronicles 1:5 Here is the polity of Media being mentioned in the Bible. "A grievous vision is declared unto me; the treacherous dealer dealeth treacherously, and the spoiler spoileth. Go up, O Elam: besiege, O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease.” - Isaiah 21:2 "In the third year of his reign, he made a feast unto all his princes and his servants; the power of Persia and Media, the nobles and princes of the provinces, being before him:” - Esther 1:14 "Likewise shall the ladies of Persia and Media say this day unto all the king's princes, which have heard of the deed of the queen. Thus shall there arise too much contempt and wrath.” - Esther 1:18 "And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the declaration of the greatness of Mordecai, whereunto the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia?” - Esther 10:2 "And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.” - Daniel 5:31 "The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.” - Daniel 8:20
Even in Genesis the genealogy of the Medes is given. So a rather old layer of the Bible. The Bible extensively uses Media as a closely related group to Persians, Chaldeans, Elamites, Assyrians and Babylonians.
The Hebrew scriptures were written for religio-political reasons, and reconstructions of the peoples of southwest Asia have shown where the Bible writers made errors (possibly on purpose, possibly not.) If you listen to this video you will discover that the existence of people who can be identified as "Medes" is not the question, but whether there was a great Mede Empire is what is being examined.
I'm glad this list of references was given, though @@TheDanEdwards... It suggests that the Medians were always part of a larger group rather than a unique separate empire.
Great presentation, speaking of the popularity of Herodotus, looking at modern day RUclips and beyond, false or greatly uninformed and misleading history is still extremely popular, which is always disappointing to me
The change from complete reliance on Greek and Roman sources only began in the 1980s? That seems late. And did the Iranian Revolution of 1979 creating Iranian exiles fleeing to the West have anything to do with this?
It's unfair to call Herodotus a liar since he simply used the sources available. You will note he excised the more legendary elements about what pre-Dorian Greece was like. You are simply using the word "lie" incorrectly.
He didn't call him a liar, he merely stated he is sometimes called "the father of lies" 2:06. He stated what others have said about him. But nowhere in the video does he call Herodotus a liar.
Hmph. I'm pretty sure I saw something about the Elamites in the Old Testament... And my impression of the Medes and Persians is that they were allies, like cousins who teamed up to overthrow the Mesapotamians. Maybe it's a good thing I never got into Herodotus 😂..
Fantastic stuff, thankyou. It seems to me the ‘Medians’ were the ‘barbarian’ (loaded word yeah) tribes at the Assyrian borderlands? Hence why their material culture looks Assyrian; they were trading with their neighbours, and adopting their practices/materials on an ad-hoc basis. And the turbulant period of the 8th and 7th centuries B.C. with the Babylonians and Elamites and others washing over the Assyrians is then, for whatever reason, given over to the Medians by good old “i heard a rumour” Herodotus? Like the way we use the shorthand of the “Goths” replacing the Romans.
It would be hilarious; If the Elamites were the Medians and the name of "Elamite" is really just a Mistranslation ((that happened somewhere along the way)) of ""Elamedian"", ""Elamdian/Elamddian"" or ""Elamid"".
Herodotus was a teller of old stories as in myths which does not make those stories false . . ALL old stories are old timers language for things witnessed & not fantasy , just have to decode . . Thucydides first recognized historian & his book the History of the Peloponneasian war . . salient terms of his statement that an average tradesman of a town would in every case make a better leader of that town . . than the usual (today global infection trying eugenics) . . career mafia families that hold political power by back stabbing force
Eh little far fetched. Herodotus didn’t come up with this theory nor was he the source. The medians were known hundreds of years prior and corded by contemporaries.
It’s hard to believe this because the sections of the Bible written in 700 BC mention the Medes extensively. If written later they would’ve been written in Persia in 500 BC which means they’re getting it from Persian sources.
"700 BC" Which sections are you referring to ? If you mean the Table of the Nations then most scholars think it is composed of multiple layers, some of which are indeed post-exilic. Also that would only confirm their existence as a people. But the video isn't arguing that the Medes didn't exist, it is arguing the Median Empire didn't. Most pre-Exilic sections of the bible that refer to the Medes refer to them as a collection of people, not as one state. They are referred to in the same way as Hitties (not a united empire but rather the Iron Age Syro-Hittie city states). The only mention of them as a united political entity would be in Esther (100% post-Exilic) and Daniel (not just post-Exilic, but literally written during the Seleucid period).
No, it mentions Medes and Persians always together as if it was a hyphenated state. Mede-Persia. Yes, later it is just called Persia but that is likely a linguistic change
The early Greeks were what we would call northern European in features . . their current brown features due to being run rough shod over as in r_ped by Arabs/Islam
I don't remember Arabs being able to do all of that in Greece, though the Turkish(not Turkic) peoples of Anatolia influenced the genetics of the modern Greek population. The Umayyad Caliphate did have Arabs invade Greece, but there is where all the Arab invasions of Greece pretty much begin and end. I might have remembered that even Celts who invaded Greece made fun of how weak and skinny Greek men were compared to their Celtic counterparts.
Great to be back. Herodotus mention within 60 seconds, we're in for a good time
Thank you for doing Near Eastern and Asian history, not nearly enough of it on this platform!
Love this channel man, you should be more popular
"The 999 Nations* of the Persian Empire descend upon you!"
One man's Mede is another man's Persian.
I always thought of the Medes as a kind of Proto-Achaemenids, where the Persians just picked up where the Medes left off. Clearly that is a distorted perspective. Thanks for the video 👍
Oh, how fascinating! I am excited for this deep dive into the Median Empire :)
Correction: now that I have watched the full video, I understand that the Median "Empire" probably did not exist. I am now curious to learn more about the Elamites, since it seems they played a much more prominent role than traditional historiography allocates to them
Fantastic video as always. The issue today is that a lot of people are too emotionally and ideologically devoted either in blindly believing anything Herodotus claimed or in believing that the Median empire existed.
I don’t understand this Herodotus cult.
It shouldn’t be that wild to understand that it’s useful to read Herodotus but equally he was fallible and not unquestionable.
@@ebrim5013 some people think that if an ancient writer wrote something, it must automatically be a fact that can’t be questioned or dismissed. Some people have other ridiculous reasons for why they cite him as a purely factual source.
@@arman_1024 I think its just a general holdover from 19th and 20th century historiography, which was such a "Western" phenomenon really, and the Greeks were considered "Western", even though they were really very far east from England 🤨 This history of how these biases develop, is fascinating in and of itself.
Maybe the Medo-Persian Empire was like Yugoslavia. For most of its history it was dominated by Serbia, but for a brief time when it was a German satellite state it was dominated by Croatia.
Maybe more like Gaul. Disunited as a rule, but for a time, a leader emerged that gathered the kingdoms and tribes under one banner (Vercingetorix).
when was Yugoslavia dominated by Croatia? the German satellite you're thinking about was the Independent State of Croatia, a fascist regime that built itself up on being the antithesis of Yugoslavia lol
@@phunkracyAlesia
@@enderman_666 The Nazi puppet state of Yugoslavia was Croat dominated because the Croats happened to be the Serbs' internal rival. Although the details get complicated with collaborators, autonomous states, and guerrillas.
The Median Empire was the friends we made along the way.
we’re so back guys. :)
Herotodus did not believe in Britain. He thought it a silly rumour. As I grow older, I have come to share his conviction. .
😂
Lol
Herodotus never wrote of Thule
Cyrus is more impressive if he wasn't taking over a preexisting empire
theres no historic person as impressive as Cyrus the great
@@a.s2205 Genghis Khan?
@@ExistgothGenghis Khan is lame, just some guy who took over a bunch of other empires.
hey, he made it bigger
@@Existgoth he was a savage who destroyed and contributed 0 to the world
"In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.” - 2 Kings 17:6
"And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel unto Assyria, and put them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes:” - 2 Kings 18:11
"And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a roll, and therein was a record thus written:” - Ezra 6:2
"If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she.” - Esther 1:19
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.” - Isaiah 13:17
"And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes,” - Jeremiah 25:25
"Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance of his temple.” - Jeremiah 51:11
"Prepare against her the nations with the kings of the Medes, the captains thereof, and all the rulers thereof, and all the land of his dominion.” - Jeremiah 51:28
"Peres; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.” - Daniel 5:28
"Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.” - Daniel 6:8
"Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.” - Daniel 6:12
"Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed.” - Daniel 6:15
"In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;” - Daniel 9:1
"Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,” - Acts 2:9
The Bible mentions the Medes many times and even late dating of Biblical layers would put it before Herodotus. (Except Acts.)
"The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.” - Genesis 10:2 (Madai here likely being Media.)
"The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.” - 1 Chronicles 1:5
Here is the polity of Media being mentioned in the Bible.
"A grievous vision is declared unto me; the treacherous dealer dealeth treacherously, and the spoiler spoileth. Go up, O Elam: besiege, O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease.” - Isaiah 21:2
"In the third year of his reign, he made a feast unto all his princes and his servants; the power of Persia and Media, the nobles and princes of the provinces, being before him:” - Esther 1:14
"Likewise shall the ladies of Persia and Media say this day unto all the king's princes, which have heard of the deed of the queen. Thus shall there arise too much contempt and wrath.” - Esther 1:18
"And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the declaration of the greatness of Mordecai, whereunto the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia?” - Esther 10:2
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.” - Daniel 5:31
"The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.” - Daniel 8:20
Even in Genesis the genealogy of the Medes is given. So a rather old layer of the Bible. The Bible extensively uses Media as a closely related group to Persians, Chaldeans, Elamites, Assyrians and Babylonians.
Does that track back in translation as well as dating?
Transliteration*
The Hebrew scriptures were written for religio-political reasons, and reconstructions of the peoples of southwest Asia have shown where the Bible writers made errors (possibly on purpose, possibly not.)
If you listen to this video you will discover that the existence of people who can be identified as "Medes" is not the question, but whether there was a great Mede Empire is what is being examined.
I'm glad this list of references was given, though @@TheDanEdwards... It suggests that the Medians were always part of a larger group rather than a unique separate empire.
great choice for a video subject!
It might be helpful if when talking about a region or feature that you circle or somehow highlight on the map in the video.
Great presentation, speaking of the popularity of Herodotus, looking at modern day RUclips and beyond, false or greatly uninformed and misleading history is still extremely popular, which is always disappointing to me
Gonna attract all sorts of weirdos with that title
Media is lies! Fake News!
20:48 i was thinking of Liverani for the whole video 😅
I love how your bookshelf is held up with stone bricks!
One for the algorithm!
Two for the show!
Third times a charm
The change from complete reliance on Greek and Roman sources only began in the 1980s? That seems late. And did the Iranian Revolution of 1979 creating Iranian exiles fleeing to the West have anything to do with this?
keep in mind what sources writers are actuallu using including in this video
Okay, can you do the alternative view on the Medeans, that it was preceded by a Scythian Empire?.
It's unfair to call Herodotus a liar since he simply used the sources available. You will note he excised the more legendary elements about what pre-Dorian Greece was like. You are simply using the word "lie" incorrectly.
Zero genetic evidence of Dorian peoples/migration/conquest.
He didn't call him a liar, he merely stated he is sometimes called "the father of lies" 2:06. He stated what others have said about him. But nowhere in the video does he call Herodotus a liar.
@@BkennyP Which is also bullshit, it just sounds grand
Hmph. I'm pretty sure I saw something about the Elamites in the Old Testament... And my impression of the Medes and Persians is that they were allies, like cousins who teamed up to overthrow the Mesapotamians.
Maybe it's a good thing I never got into Herodotus 😂..
Fantastic stuff, thankyou. It seems to me the ‘Medians’ were the ‘barbarian’ (loaded word yeah) tribes at the Assyrian borderlands? Hence why their material culture looks Assyrian; they were trading with their neighbours, and adopting their practices/materials on an ad-hoc basis. And the turbulant period of the 8th and 7th centuries B.C. with the Babylonians and Elamites and others washing over the Assyrians is then, for whatever reason, given over to the Medians by good old “i heard a rumour” Herodotus? Like the way we use the shorthand of the “Goths” replacing the Romans.
Nice bookshelf
Thank you!
Before Muhammad, Herodotus is the original ear. Everything he hears, he writes down or recites without question.
Not necessarily everything. The legendary stuff Homer wrote down did not appear in Herodotus' description of pre-Dorian days
What I really want to know is, is Median an exonym? If it is, it is rather comically fitting. 😂 And if so, how did they call themselves?
Considering how many times people have doubted Herodotus only to be proven wrong, I am going to trust Herodotus.
over the actual neighbors of the people he wrote about?
Name five.
How will Kurdish Median larpers recover from this?
It would be hilarious; If the Elamites were the Medians and the name of "Elamite" is really just a Mistranslation ((that happened somewhere along the way)) of ""Elamedian"", ""Elamdian/Elamddian"" or ""Elamid"".
I don't think English suffixes work the same way as most languages.
This actually would make sense to a certain extent...
My money was on the Medes. 👍
no that can not be !
history can NOT lie...
😏
BC might make sense in Christian Europe, but in the region of the Zoraster and later Islam BCE is more respectful.
No one cares
Then make your own calendar to use instead of stealing Christianity's.
Herodotus was a teller of old stories as in myths which does not make those stories false . . ALL old stories are old timers language for things witnessed & not fantasy , just have to decode . . Thucydides first recognized historian & his book the History of the Peloponneasian war . . salient terms of his statement that an average tradesman of a town would in every case make a better leader of that town . . than the usual (today global infection trying eugenics) . . career mafia families that hold political power by back stabbing force
My source is i made it the fuck up
-herodotus probably
No, he heard it years ago from someone who got it from someone else and he had scattered writings now lost to us
Thank God for 1.25x times normal speed!
Eh little far fetched. Herodotus didn’t come up with this theory nor was he the source. The medians were known hundreds of years prior and corded by contemporaries.
You haven't watched the video ?
The Medians existed as a people. The Median Empire probably didn't.
It might be worth to watch the video first.
It’s hard to believe this because the sections of the Bible written in 700 BC mention the Medes extensively. If written later they would’ve been written in Persia in 500 BC which means they’re getting it from Persian sources.
Scholars love lying to us. It’s their forte to push their version of history.
"700 BC" Which sections are you referring to ? If you mean the Table of the Nations then most scholars think it is composed of multiple layers, some of which are indeed post-exilic. Also that would only confirm their existence as a people. But the video isn't arguing that the Medes didn't exist, it is arguing the Median Empire didn't.
Most pre-Exilic sections of the bible that refer to the Medes refer to them as a collection of people, not as one state. They are referred to in the same way as Hitties (not a united empire but rather the Iron Age Syro-Hittie city states).
The only mention of them as a united political entity would be in Esther (100% post-Exilic) and Daniel (not just post-Exilic, but literally written during the Seleucid period).
Was there an independent Hebrew word for Medes/Media or was it transliterated from "Persia" later by Greeks familiar with Herodotus?
Watch the video. It’s not that the Medes didn’t exist, it’s that a “Median Empire” likely didn’t.
No, it mentions Medes and Persians always together as if it was a hyphenated state. Mede-Persia. Yes, later it is just called Persia but that is likely a linguistic change
o7
The early Greeks were what we would call northern European in features . . their current brown features due to being run rough shod over as in r_ped by Arabs/Islam
I don't remember Arabs being able to do all of that in Greece, though the Turkish(not Turkic) peoples of Anatolia influenced the genetics of the modern Greek population. The Umayyad Caliphate did have Arabs invade Greece, but there is where all the Arab invasions of Greece pretty much begin and end. I might have remembered that even Celts who invaded Greece made fun of how weak and skinny Greek men were compared to their Celtic counterparts.
Clickbait title is a bit disappointing
How so?