John Browning vs Hiram Maxim: Patent Fight!
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- Опубликовано: 24 сен 2019
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When John Browning designed his Model 1895 machine gun with it's rotary-lever gas operation system, Hiram Maxim filed suit claiming patent infringement. Maxim had filed quite broad patents covering gas pistons operation, but specifically in a linear format. Browning and Colt (who had the license to manufacture the Model 1895 machine gun) countered that the swinging lever was a different system, and thus not covered by Maxim's patents. More to the point, they claimed that the gun would work without using a gas piston at all - and built this experimental model using a gas trap or muzzle cap system instead to prove the point.
Ultimately, the genesis of the fight was moot (the Maxim did not run well in 6mm Lee Navy, and would not have won a US Navy contract regardless of the Colt/Browning gun), and the court ultimately decided in favor of Colt and Browning. But this gun remains from the incident...
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**Gunsmiths start throwing obscure gun designs at each other**
That happened last year with the not so new 300 legend
The dueling dis tracks of the late 19th century.
the best kind of competition the one that forces industry improvement.
Lmao yanks out a bolt action 1911 at John browning *you bastard. * xD
Here’s my design.
Not so fast sir!! Here is, MY design!
"And Browning's gun worked better."
Hmm, yes, the floor is made of floor.
Seriously. Man had the Midas gun touch.
@@olliegoriaBrowning had some stinkers every once in a while, they just never got produced or got significantly tweaked before production.
The real business genius of Browning is that he basically got every gun company buying his patents regardless of viability on the grounds that "well, its John Browning, maybe he sees something we don't in this concept"
In the left corner "the gun god of the US" John Browning and in the right corner his opponent Hiram Maxim "the father of the machinegun", lets get reaadddy to ruuummble
*AAARREEE YOU RRRREADY TO RRRRIFLE*
The Mormon Mangler vs the British Brawler, live on payperview.
@@piritskenyer oh hai piritskenyer, nice to see you here :) (BlackYeti WoWs)
Tadicuslegion78 wasn't Maxim American?
@@feraligatorade99 Born in America but moved to Britain as an adult.
Gunsmith Fight at the OK patent office:
A fight in which firearms are used, but not fired directly at the opponent; rather, made increasingly complex and divergent from each other by way of proving uniqueness.
Sounds like a plot to a movie I'd see!
@@Beltzer0072 if they can make Ford vs Ferrari
They surely can make browning vs maxim
"So what did you do today honey?"
"I manhandled a one of a kind, 100-plus year machinegun".
Ian has the best job ever.
How heavy was it, honey ?
Yes.
@@limpetarch98k 😂
Does he even have a honey?
Which the god of gun design personally held and fiddled with
@@onelonecelt9168 I've heard talk that he's gay but I don't think it's true
“This pissed off Maxim” that cracked me up.
Remember that the reason why Hiram Maxim came to small arms is his withdrawal from electric patent disputes against Edison and Tesla and so on. Although Browning is definitely a patent guy, Maxim is a true patent monster...
Yep, I'm not surprised that Maxim was an authoritarian lol
Westinghouse
3:57 new the best moment of the internet for me.
Hahaha I loved it too, reminded me of the talking seal video (search talking sea doggo)
I want to have a separate like button just for this
Poposperous! Outrage! 🧐
Recoiling with a gas operated 'Harumph!' . . . . a very worthy '6.9' from the Sherwood judge : )
With all my heart and soul i believe this is what actually happend... :)
Honestly, I think “Patent Fight!” has the potential to be its own sub-series
Do it Ian
Not gonna lie, the suspense of knowing if the acrylic stand were gonna break or not kept me on the edge.
So steampunk it hurts. Can basically see the entire operation from the exterior of the firearm.
It is truly awesome. We must see it firing!
They could have made the frame and the action in brass. That's how you make it more steampunk
@@StevieB8363 there is a video of it firing, search for "Colt Browning M1895-"The Potato Digger""
"What Browning had come up with was a gas port in the barrel here, which blows gas downward, hits this cap, which throws this lever down in this circular arc, which hits the bowling ball and sends it rolling down the ramp, where it falls into the bucket, which pulls the rope down through the pulley, which lifts the cage with the chicken in it at the other end of the rope, the chicken pecks at this tray of seed, the flint attached to the chicken's beak hits this steel plate and makes sparks, that ignites the priming powder, which sets off the counter-charge that drives the bolt backward, and that cycles the gun. Hiram Maxim had a different take..."
Its even funnier when you realise Browning thought the whole process in detail then decided to put it on paper.
@@thischannelisbackon5679 It's even wilder than that. Usually what he did was think through the process, then _build_ it, then sell it to Winchester and let _them_ put it on paper. :)
"Patent Viloators" sounds like a great name for a cheap 80's action B movie.
Or a satire Band
The Patent Violator was a minor Spawn villian in early drafts of the comic
@@G-Mastah-Fash It's gotta be a band name.
Or porno
The Patent Violators was the name of my high school rock band.
Ian, the Flapper Rifle wasn't semi-auto, the modified lever was designed to press the trigger when it came all the way back into battery. It was a full auto Winchester.
You need to come down to Ogden and see the thing one of these days.
That sounds near Teckheresy...
Please go on.
It was actually done two different times, the first one was just proof of concept that energy was being wasted out the muzzle in the form of pressurized gas. They only linked the muzzle flap to the (modified, cut) lever & attached a return spring. Upon watching it cycle, he noticed it could be further improved to run full auto by adjusting the timing of a couple components. There's a documentary out there about John Moses Browning & his accomplishments which details it quite well. When Winchester heard of his improved design, they made him an offer of "deliver in 3 months for $10K" that he promptly countered. He said "if I take longer than 1 month, it's free, but if I do it in a month, I want (I believe) $30K." He hand delivered it to the owner of Winchester 3 weeks later, which gave him so much credibility that a number of his design patents were bought unseen, without question by Winchester for years to come because they didn't want him to turn to their competition. Browning actually had a meeting with the owner of Remington to show off a new design & while John was waiting, the man fell dead from a heart attack (or maybe a stroke, can't remember) & thus, Browning was sent home empty handed. Had that partnership taken place, I believe it would've been a game changing event in the firearm industry. At the turn of the century, remington made some of the highest quality pieces but they were slightly too expensive due to complicated designs taking extra machine time & this was something Browning excelled at with his simplistic design (well, except for the B.A.R, that is)
Someone needs to build one of these.
If the shtf that would be a semi easy way for a low capacity full auto or a lightning link
Exactly what I was thinking. Browning had a machinegun first.
John Browning maybe the best Mechanical Engineer who never attended a Engineering School. Just think how complex it's to design a gun from scratch? No computer. No auto CAD. Just paper, pen and a slide rule. Then the idea of gas operation? Guns had been used for 500 years. And nobody had used gas power to do work outside of steam. Yet, he is only given the title, gunmaker...
I love JMB, but I'd put Isambard Kingdom Brunel ahead of him by a good margin. Brunel was rejected by the engineering school his father wanted him to attend, so he had to apprentice with a clockmaker instead; yet he went on to become the British Empire's greatest builder.
@@ostiariusalpha Brunel is underrated as well.
WALTERBROADDUS
I don't believe John Browning even had to use a Slide-rule for his work.
Maxim was also an incredibly smart dude
Good points.
I agree.
As an IT guy it still throws me off every time Ian talks about operating systems even watching this channel for quite a while
Why did the thought of machine guns running Arch cross my mind when I heard the words "operating system"?
ok nerds back to your caves
My PKM is running Android now.
Real guns are interrupt driven ;)
My rpk uses 2 toasters and half a bottle of maker's mark as an operating system
Looks more like a cannon than machine gun
It looks like a umbrella.
Explain to me the difference
@@SgtKOnyx size of the bullet... well, if it's a cannon, it fires a grenade/shell
Except for that teeny tiny muzzle opening...
@@TheWorldEnd2 Not exactly right. Cannon would also fire solid ball for breaching ship hulls. One of the reasons the British beat the Spanish Armada was because their solid shot couldn't easily breach the English oak hull of the British ships. Both sides documented that the shot would just bounce off the British ships. The shot put event in track and field events is so named because originally solid cannon shot was used for it. 20mm and 30mm aircraft guns today use a mix of tracer and solid bullets. They're essentially scaled up machine guns and electrically powered Gatling guns but are called cannon because of the caliber they fire. In that regard, you're correct about why they're called cannon but your incorrect about the fact that cannon only fire grenades and shells.
I love how they just start making guns to prove a point. Eccentric genius' people.
In my mind’s eye and my heart of hearts...I can imagine a toast of sorts between John M. Browning, Makhail Kalashniknov and Eugene Stoner on their contributions to the shooting world...geniuses all. 👍 minute 3:57 runs in a loop 😆
Ian, You do an amazing job of explaining the history and operation of your subject. Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge, keep up the great work. On your recommendation we went to the Relief Maps in The Military Museum last week and it was amazing.
The Italian Navy bought a decent number of Colt 1895s, some were even used in WW2.
It's kinda cool how slick and streamlined that thing looks
Browning's full auto winchester gives me visions of a alternative history movie of cowboys vs Indians armed with those guns and steam powered mini guns.
i love how there are still the scratches on the frame from whatever engeneer was assembling the thing checking if the holes where right
When Ian said "small potatoes" I nearly choked on my coffee.
Thank you Ian.
Your videos are great. Absolutely top notch 👍
"Oh you copied my patent!"
"If I copied your patent why does my gun work?"
Small potatoes with a straight face, I am impressed.......
So you say I have stolen your idea to make my gun work? Well look I don't need (THAT particular) ideas of yours to make it work !
hey did you ever get your MAS submachine gun to work? and if so could you do a video with it. also was this belt fed or did it use a magazine?
Great story told well. Thank you
I find Patent Wars so interesting, especially the ways they're fought or the long lasting impact they ultimately have on current technologies. Take White's patent for a bored through cylinder. Devilishly simple yet maybe a major bottleneck in the evolution of repeating firearms. The Maxim-Browning Patent war likely stunted arms development for many years in a similar manner.
thnx for great content
The beauty of competition in the small arms business.
Excellent video thanks
Imagine getting killed by something called a Potato Dicker
Hey, even potatoes need love XD
Put that thing above your crotch and it'll be a Carrot slicer
that is one interestingly f****d up action. would love to see you fire this
God this thing looks ear and bone rattling to operate. imagine the vibration and impact the operator would feel from that massive lever flopping around.
*Mortal Combat Theme Plays*
@6:48
“.. infringement turned out to be small potatoes.”
Potatoes dug by the Colt/Browning gun!!
Yay! Love the direction of these last few vidios like this on maxim and maxim like stuffs lol
Meanwhile Gardner and Gatling: Hehe hand crank go spin.
The noise of running this action would be next level.
It still just completely blows my mind that this is happening in the 19th century
Beautiful little piece.. I mean big massive chunk... of firearms history there.
I noticed the resemblance of that muzzle arrangement to a lot of early 20th century science-fictional gun ideas. Did the artists who built props for Buck Rogers etc. and painted early SF magazine covers take inspiration from that and similar real world "unusual" gun muzzle designs?
Ft Jackson museum has a VERY nice Marlin 1895 model built during 1917 in their inventory and it is gorgeous!
Obfuscation... Good vocabulary today my good sir.
Amazing solutions to a problem over a patent dispute.
BEAUTIFUL!!
Would be cool to see it cycling in slow mo
If you check out vbbsmyt you can find a brilliant animation of the original gas tappet version, along with a bunch of other really cool stuff.
Were these Browning muzzle cap or Maxim recoil booster systems related or an inspiration to the Bang rifle?
Ian I have an idea for a video, A video of first's that you know of, for example 1st centrefire,1st of each operating system, 1st telescoping bolt, 1st multi lug bolt face 1st magazine fed detached and non detached etc I believe most people will not believe how far back some of these go !
Ah the Potato Digger. Recognised it right away
Except it's not the OG one
Very interesting fight, Browning was by far probably a better gunsmith, but Maxim was an incredibly clever guy too since he did build a black powder machinegun
@@calska140 oh, it trickled down alright. Someones leg! Boomshakalaka!!
@@drdoofenshootz7 It wound up a brown stain on the mattress!
Ian: How on earth do you gain all this detailed knowledge? Amazing.
Read books.
He studies and reads constantly.
Hey Hiram, check it out. This puppy really S L A P S
That is, like, the least violent gun fight ever.
Thx!
Ian bro you need to start doing vlogs about you and who you are as a firearms historian. Who else agrees
This is the first forgotten weapons video where I immediately said “what the fuck”
Patent fight? That’s patently ridiculous.
But were they wearing their patent leather shoes?
stop. please.
What do you think of the 6 mm Lee ballistics?
There is actual footage of this gun being fired by R Lee Ermey (Gunny) on lock n load for their machine gun episode.
This gave me some extra old nostalgia of the History channel way back when.
I remember seeing the potato digger in action in a movie about the Spanish-American War and loved it.
Anyone know if a gas piston system has
a) exhausted that gas so that it blows the spent casing out of the ejection port
or
b) been used to damp the bolt and return it to the locked position?
It's got to be easier/better tapping you guys than asking the general interweb.
TIA
C none of the above. A gas piston is just that a piston driven by the gases. The piston connected to a recoil spring is pushed back until the spring stops. This allows the extractor to eject the spent casing then upon the spring moving forward a fresh round is loaded from the magazine or belt in some machine guns.
Also what is TIA? Thank you.
That lever (or whatever you call it) might work on a ship borne pedestal mount but for Infantry use it would place limitations on tactical emplacement. Fortunately, by the time WW1 rolled around John Browning had a better design that served the US Army through two World Wars, the Korean Conflict and the Cold War through the early 1960s.
I want to see more diesel punk games that use more obscure weapon design concepts like this
Very interesting history; btw, the video here in Spain had an opening anounce from Save The Children.
@@calska140 So are drugs, video games and numerous other subjects.
@@calska140 I don't know if you are aware or not, but this channel, like many others... are demonetized and YT doesn't assign comercial publicity to 'em; they did with this video, and they did assign other random advertisement to some other few videos of this channel since YT began with this demonetization policy based on...!?. I just was informing Ian that YT this morning assigned a random advertisement to this video, that's all; our kids are in danger of can't find a long term decent job that pay the bills mainly, the drugs abuse it's a very minoritary problem here in this vegans, Iphone, yoga and gym age.
EDIT: Seems that they'd retired the ad now, before that the video begins; it was there on the 1st 20 something minutes.
Browning made the prototype on an anvil with a hammer, and took it to the buyers, and fired a whole belt without failure.
That is one funky design
That thing must look pretty wild going full auto.
Isn't it semi-auto only?
That thing must look pretty wild going anywhere?
@@BaronSamedi1959 it's a machine gun, by definition it's meant to go full auto.
Very, very, very, cool!
When you look at a gun, and you picture a gunner yelling 'dig a hole' for however long he had his finger on the trigger.
Just how clever the inventors of that time were,working with existing tools,no plans to consult,fabricating every part which they designed,and then trying to sell the product to an interested party,that in itself a formidable achievement. Then finding a company with the means to produce the invention in big numbers,after setting up the machinery. Plain to see why the military was usually the first choice, considering the expense.
Why am I thinking of a toggle lock with parts spread around the weapon rather than confined to the bolt?
Gun: has the word potato in its name
Irish: IlL TaKE yOu’RE enTIrE StoCk!
Maybe I’m confused but is this substantially different from the “bang” system? Both use a device at the end of the muzzle to trap gas and use that to work the action.
Søren Bang’s designs came later, it seems (Wikipedia claims 1903, but so far I haven’t found proof of that).
Maybe I'm the one that is confused, but I thought Bang redirected the gas pressure to push a piston rearwards. This uses forward gas pressure to pull the gas trap forwards, then uses levers to reverse the direction of motion.
Thanks for the replies; clears it up for me.
Ah the late 1800's, a time where you could tape two pans together and file an unusually long and broad covering patent over it... The good old days
it's got some rather hefty moving parts and I'm gonna guess that it moves around quite a bit while your firing it.
I believe Browning to be the ultimate winner. Why? Browning's designs are still widely used by many militaries and civilians to this day, Maxim's are not. The M2HB, M1911, Hi-Power, Auto-5, and the Ithaca Model 37 are all perfect examples of this.
I agree and there’s many more. John Browning was a gun genius. Nobody else comes close.
Doesn't any action that doesn't work 100% in parallel with the line of fire impact accuracy a little?
A bit yeah.
Yes, but... in this instance the forces are basically working mostly vertically against the weight of the gun and solidity of the mount, it's not nearly as bad as fore-aft motions that rock the gun on it's legs.
It's a machine gun. Dispersion is a feature, not a bug.
It's a heavy machine gun operated from a fixed mount. Accuracy impacts will be very small.
You know an argument gets serious when forearm are involved, and when its patents its not who draws first but who files first.
What a racket it must have made,with that lever crashing to and fro,and the muzzle jerking off (?) . Wish I could see the auto Winchester in action! How about that let loose in Tombstone?
One thing that I wonder is if John Browning and Hiram Maxim ever met each other.
I don't suppose you did the gun that started the 50 BMG cartridge?
Would have loved to see this in BF1
The idea of using the same locking system but a different operating system makes me wonder about gas operated roller locking guns.
Very cool 😎
does that thing fire? are there fully operational ones?
Yep, ruclips.net/video/iFP-ZAlyRgg/видео.html
Any videos of this firing?
That thing looks like it could take down a plane in WW1
...by mounting one on the said plane?
@@ringowunderlich2241 or on the ground .
Just keep in timeline. Just the idea of a armed airplane was new in 1914.
A good sneeze could take down a World War 1 biplane.
I wonder what the conversations between the two were like! "Celebrity Death Match - Gun Gods!" 🤣
Also, did the title of this video - "Patent Fight!" remind anyone else of the old SNL "Emmy Fight" sketch? Two guys, with dozens of patents, hurling them at each other! 🤣
Problem, Maxim had very few patents to his name. Browning as far as I know holds the record for firearms patents by a single individual. Even Eugene stoner had a lot of help with the M16 design.
Looks scary.
This is the first time I've said this on one of these videos... "wtf am I looking at"
Lol "potato digger" I love it
This strikes me as a variant of a 'gas trap' system.
Wonder how the recoil on a gun like that feels. Probably not that noticable when mounted on a ship, but on a small infantry tripod it must be interesting, if you dont get all kinds of shit stuck in the potato arm
It's honestly amusing to think that John Browning went and created one of the first militarily successful gas operated machine guns purely to circumvent Maxim's patent. It's like inventing and successfully selling a jet powered plane to the military because you don't want to have to contract piston engines from a different company.
Ian stirring up old beefs!Let it go.