The Problem With Meta In Gacha Games
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
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meta in gachas is a very complicated topic that people are always talking about , some games apply it in a good way , and some other are still trying to innovate a new way of handeling it.
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😭😭😭
It actually a good game and I'm still wooooh 😭😭😭😭
ayy shout-out to the few Kayoko and Wakamo simps who like characters over legal age!
But for real, best game to unwind with while looking at the swimsuit chibis (respectfully)
Crazy how HSR had more powercreep in a single year than Genshin did in 4
it's not crazy when it had the same endgame mode for 3 years+
I usually take the middle ground approach in regards to meta; I pick the characters I actually like and then build a competent team around them.
The characters I like might not necessarily be meta, but I invest enough in meta supports so that I don't feel miserable playing the game with them.
I mean, imagine playing a comp with four DPSes just because they're your favorites. 😅
My problem with meta in gacha games is that there is literally no alternative, its shamelessly shoved down your throat and any alternative is not only barely featured in any capacity, its rarely future proof or even retrofitted to allow older characters to be viable again.
I agree with the general sentiment. In Genshin, however, there are occasions when an old character is made good/viable again: (1) Diluc got Furina and Xianyun, (2) Xiao got Faruzan, Furina and Xianyun, (3) Ayato got Nahida, Yelan and Kuki Shinobu, and (4) Raiden got Chevreuse (she's still great in hyperbloom and national). Now... all of the above have been powercrept but can still clear content, just not for top marks/rewards. Stioorg basically said exactly that... if you didn't get the supports they aren't as viable as yesteryear.
Where I really agree is that I used to be able to get more stars in the Abyss than now (used to be 31-32) and now it's 26-27 and dropping because... I don't have a lot of Fontaine characters. I lost all my 50/50s pulling for Neuvillette, Navia, and Furina. So I only have Furina of the bunch. Fontaine broke me - and now I don't care about META because outside the Abyss and IT, META is somewhat irrelevant. Almost any character can clear any content, some will struggle more than others.
Tbh... I have an easy way to tell if a game will have quick powercreep or slower Powercreep, and that's by feeling whether I'm pressured to follow the meta from the very first day I play that game...
Well i mostly agree, i would still say for the general context - bias plays a lot in this as well.
Cause most people could play the big 5-6 gacha games and still feel the powercreep felt and just say "oh no X character just got literally powercrept by the new units directly after the patch!!!" Even though it's still in it's power budget balancing..
Oh yeah WuWa meta is pretty clear good like in PGR.
Even the Changli slander is just baseless...
Claims...
1) Changli has lower support than Yinlin
Reality = Because instead of off field damage? She instantly burst damage within a short fame.
2) Yinlin has weaker skill than Encore
Reality = They didn't even consider that Changli had better passive than Encore
3) Changli can't support Encore
Reality = That applies even with another tier 0 Support Yinlin. Because Encore doesn't have an ULT.
Honestly the meta in WuWa is less of being effective. Its more like how you like to play.
Both Yinlin and Changli shares same result. Just different kind of damage.
If you like Off field damage? Go with Yinlin.
If you like quick time burst? Go with Changli.
In WuWa the meta is more subjective...
Unless you talking about the tiger dude because he sucks even jf he's cool... I'm sorry...
People forget that you can make any character strong if you build them strong.Meta is temporary but waifu is eternal.
That's a stupid take but i rather:
Ppl forgot that they are not forced to clear full stars moc abyss idk what you wanna called it so pull who you want build how you want and clear what you can and enjoy the game rather than fear of missing 60 gems cus you didn't clear last level lol
@@_an1s_This won't be right if you can't clear more than 2 stages. The rewards you'll be missing will stack each time it refreshes, and those who are saving for someone will feel it. It also sucks when u see everyone clearing everything and you're still left behind
But otherwise yeah you're right. Recently I noticed I can't clear the last stages of hsr's endgames when I used to be able to bc I'm not pulling for new characters but who cares about 60 jades lol
@@PY3100 "you should stop comparing yourself to ppl and make your own achievements" is the most basic thing you should know
I said you can skip clearing last satge bro and even if it stacks you gonna miss like 600 gems every 10 refresh and evry refresh is after 2 weeks
I stop bothering getting 3* in last stages of moc pf and ac cus i don't wanna burn my brain cells because of my shi luck and bad planning i had to do alot of work to be able to always 36 star moc i can still 36 it but i don't wanna retry like 10 times just for 60 gems lol
@@_an1s_
Yeah that's what I'm doing
Your "waifu" isn't real. Wake up.
I'm really happy with the current situation in wuwa tbh
Even tho I'm skipping 1.1, the patch with the most powerful dps and another valuable character, I still find them an easy skip just bc I'm not that much into the characters. Or at least I don't feel pressured to pull characters I don't like, like what happened to me in hsr with Ruan Mei and Acheron
I'm still satisfied with my Jiyan and Yinlin and my standard characters and four stars :) I hope it stays like this
People complain a lot about power creep but they're the same ones who complain why changli is weak and doesn't do more dmg than jinshi... Shit doesn't makes sense 💀 just pull who you like regardless of meta
I've never seen someone complaining abt Changli tho, everyone is satisfied with her
And she's also more valuable than Jinhsi bc of her outro skill, why are they complaining?
OP pretty much said it, its cuz ppl realize Changli doesn't do as much or more dmg as Jihnsi and skill issue, ppl cant proc her forte properly.
Then you didn't search enough cuz there definitely is people saying that@@PY3100
People forget Changli has Supporting capabilities too while jinhsi don't. She boosts Liberation and fusion DMG + she can use the moonlit set as her concerto fills faster. She will become more stronger when there's a fusion dps which can utilise her kit fully which makes her Future proof. Whereas jinhsi has Verina, Yuanwu, ZZ and Yinlin. WuWa wants their magistrate to work in the Jinzhou region meta which she should.
What i like in wuwa is that the meta really doesnt count, is your ability and holy moly , people do some epic stuff in wuwa
It's a PVE game, play with the character you like most. Simple...
doesn't apply to every game if the character you like can't clear content
@@stioorg I play PGR and WUWA. To date, I have never had any problem in this regard. But I don't know what it's like in other games.
@@ThallesTales
I noticed in hsr I'm not able to clear the last stage of each endgame anymore even tho I used to do it easily, just bc I'm not pulling on the newer characters
Mind you I have the best support in the game and a E2S1 5* dps and so much more since I'm playing for a year..😂
Other than apocalyptic shadow, you should definitely be able to clear the other modes(easily) with E2S1 dps, im suspecting not playing optimally.@@PY3100
@@PY3100because the game wants to cough up some money out of you.
You and gacha community have a wrong perception of what meta is. Meta = most effective tactics available. It isn't about most used characters or about strongest characters to bruteforce encounter with pure strengtth. It is about using proper characters which would be most effective against these specific encounters/enemy types/weaknesses. In Genshin, Venti is considered to be fallen off, but he is meta in any encounter with lightweight mobs. Neuvillette, which is considered the strongest dps, isn't meta against Thunder Manifestation/Pearl Seahorse. What you are talking about is a general powerlevel of characters, powercreep, and tactics gacha devs using to promote ther characters, not meta.
Im aware of that , and im saying powercreep is the main way used by them to handle the meta. I did talk about modes and gear too its just that character powercreep is my main point because it is what matters to them more than anything else so meta will revolve around it
@@stioorgbro we all know nowadays people use Power Creeping as meta.
@@Arashish17 that's only gacha players, i'm mainly an esport player , and i'm aware of what meta is exactly but true people care about characters only and treat powercreep as everything
@@stioorg well the video was about gacha games, so there was no need for elaboration.
there was kick back in the background of the blue archive sponsor
the 'Ruan Mei' effect
i kinda miss my tof account, i leave tof with 300+pulls left there, and is the no. 1 generous gacha for f2p but the problem in tof is not the powercreep by meta for me, but the event tho, so time consuming😂😂
HSR kinda a lot more generous than Genshin too , maybe due to the dev realized these problem like you said .
It's more generous because they release more characters
@@giantship555 it's generous because of meta actually. Yes they release new 2 chars per patch, but doesn't mean you have to pull both. It just means you have more option for team-building with guaranteed at least one 5 stars per patch and possibly 2 five stars if you're lucky.
@@jerryeljeremy7790 "You don't need to pull everyone". So If they release 4 5* every patch you don't care how many pulls you get as long as you can garanti 1 every patch ?
Do you think that would still make the game more generous than genshin ?
Hoyo give to f2p enough pulls to garanti at least half of the roster in Genshin, HSR and now ZZZ.
It wouldn't be possible if they didn't increase the amount of pulls you get in HSR where you get 2 new 5* every patch.
@@giantship555 You missed the point. in Genshin the average F2P wishes you get per patch is around 70 to 90+, in HSR the average F2P tickets per patch are 110 to 130+. That's just objectively more than Genshin, no?
And yes, I don't care if I missed 3 banners per patch in HSR, cuz I always pull the right char for the right team I was building, the fomo can't get me.
@@jerryeljeremy7790 What you seem to not know is that Genshin release 1 5* per patch.
Hoyo is not my friend I don't expect them to give as much pull in Genshin compared to HSR since you could basically get every new character in the game without spending money.
Blue Archive sponsor 😂
corpa
Still watching the video but gonna leave a opinion here and idk if it was mentioned but since you have a ba sponsor I'm sure you might have mentioned it.
Blue archive actually does something i find much better than in games like genshin and star rail that while all characters are ususable in these games in blue archive the meta there has more wiggle room with old units still being really good, example of this are mutsuki and momoi who are used alot despite having better units simply because of the amount of variety of the content. Hsr kinda did this with pure fiction and (the new mode that was supposed to be single target did not do anything just a redesigned abyss imo) but in ba you have the 4 damage types where you need units in and then there is also the difference between aoe and single target example of this would be hasumi(track) and chise both of then use mystic(blue) dmg but both of them have their uses. There is also armor types which again keeps old units not only usuable but still good. Another example would be the raids have totally different unit needs that multiple meta exist. Good example would be how teams need a repositioner in shurokuro(forgot the name) and a healer for Hieronymus.
Units also crazy easy to get already have majority units i want as f2p and with how many times you can get off banner units. Fes banner is also goated with the double drop rate
You should try limbus company
Type “What the hell is wuthering waves” theres a cc in need of slander
Lovely to see character from chainsaw man part 2 😅 though might be part 1 as well. I guess I am in the odd boat of wait for raiden/any other character that seems cool though 4 stars can seem cooler as I only have a 5 stars and give up on tower of fantasy after foina with there yet to be a character to come back to pull.
M.E.T.A. is inherently a good thing but some people from the respective communities are taking it so seriously. ☕
Lol brainrot spotted
The only reason for pulling should be fun not an endgame based on chasing boring stats
@@TerreneitorPlusUltra you realize that according to your own words, someone legit has fun chasing numbers.
You managed to be right and wrong at the same time, talk about brain rot. ☕
@@TerreneitorPlusUltrabut I like to pull powerful characters to make my gameplay experience easier and I enjoy it that way. does that make my playstyle preference less valid?
@@lancertheimaginary8462 I think that's the real disconnect in all this. Results-driven players are exactly that: _driven by results_ and it's often at odds with people who care more for experience or design or what have you.
It's not invalid, but I think the issue comes from many of those results-driven players being _very_ vocal about anyone who doesn't share the same mindset. There's a video from BranOnline where he says, no more than 3 minutes in, something akin to "If you're not playing Bennett, what the f--k is wrong with you??" and I legit couldn't tell whether or not he was joking.
One does not simply talk about meta and powercreep before:
1) Play a Cygames gacha game
2) Play a REAL chinese money-grabber gacha game (hoyo at this point is international!)
Neuvi? Powercreep? bro he's just there for fun. just like... say: Ganyu & Ayaka. Or Hutao & Yoimiya. or Kokomi & whoever isn't dumb enough to actually thought she sucks when her kit was first revealed.
Hoyoverse sacrifice Genshin satisfies content and trashed Surveys, feedback and Customer support into HSR Milk money never care for Characters matter anymore and betray hype game for
The only case when meta don't change is PGR case where they don't make duplicate of Amplifier class... This is both good and bad.
Good
1) It makes it easier to build a team. Just any dps and one support.
2) It makes it easy to save the roll
Now the bad side...
1) If you missed them? Yeah good luck building that element team! You could but it will be so inferior using healer. Like they are not meant to support to begin with...
2) It also means people can spend less. They can just save and plan their roll.
Honestly the only case when meta don't change is the game don't ever change that. But...
1) Genshin Impact => The meta not only adding more damage but they also adding more HP... Like why are they INCREASING everything?
2) Honkai Starrail => They don't change the damage and HP much. Instead they change the weakness of the enemy which makes certain team bad in the meta rotation instead. At time DoT is good and than it sucks... That's about it. Okd character are nit that far worse like lower than A tier. Except Yangqing... He still trash...
3) FGO => Funny enough with over 300 servants? Only less than 10 support actually matters... So regardless of DPS meta? It doesn't matter!
Honestly i doubt Gunshin Impact will ever fix the meta problem. They are HORRIBLE at that. They didn't fux the meta at all... They actively making it worse.
I wouldn't even mind if they instead of HP scale and choose to do damage rotation instead like HSR? It would have been better!
Genshin have no such problem
: xiangling 🗿
i can smell that bro was holding himself back from bursting out laughing at the beginning of the blue archive sponsor segment
but good vid man
Most those gacha game dont even have pvp so its mostly people problem thinking meta important to beat those npc enemy lol.
I usually skip the ads. Not this time.
I love you Stioorg
Does meta matter in Genshin when you can clear it with any good team you already have? If you have enough character pool in Genshin, you don't need to worry about meta, you'll only worry about if you can get the new character because the character is hot/cute/handsome/funny/etc. HSR right now is still in the stage where they can keep introducing new mechanics and good end game. In Genshin, you only worry if your characters can either Crit or can do elemental reaction. But if you really want my option, Waifu/Husbando > meta.
@@OfficialNeonScratch exactly as i said. The game isnt getting harder YET and meta is still not important yet they started powercreeping and its interesting to see
It matters in Genshin too, imagine being an albedo or Klee main that you have to invest so much time and effort in building them and can't even clear the abyss without perfect rotation. Whereas Neu or Arle can clear it even with below avg builds. And those old characters don't even get appreciation on the other hand gets trolled by netizens.
Tell that to those who constantly create useless meta tier lists and call normal and decent characters trash simply because they aren't brainless and unfairly broken like Nilou or Neuvillette.
Managing powercreep in a gacha is kinda like managing inflation in an economy-inflation in the power economy is going to happen, so you need to keep it low and stable. Aside from that, it can be different strokes for different folks as to which “economic policy” you prefer, as you say.
I personally like Genshin’s slow-and-steady niche-by-niche horizontal expansion approach to meta but there’s no doubt that it’s not satisfying to many players. Using the economic example, imagine character power as a currency, and the game’s combat requirements/endgame content as goods and services with a price. Genshin keeping stuff fairly easy and accessible is kind of a brute-force solution similar to setting a price cap on goods and services, but people will naturally crave more of those goods and services to “spend” their currency on-hence the complaints relating to provision of endgame content. By comparison, other games may be willing to provide more of those goods-or even higher-tier goods for the wealthier in terms of power. But that leads to a more ruthless and cut-throat economy. And as you mention, “equalising” the playing field through direct nerfs is a no-go, even if it patches legitimate glitches-just look at the Neuvillette situation recently. Nobody likes a tax rise!
One side note I might mention is that not all games are unwilling to offer “subsidies” to characters who have fallen behind in the form of direct buffs. I played FEH for several years and they were pretty open to that. However, it’s important to note that direct buffs can themselves be unreliable as to HOW effective they are, and are themselves vulnerable to the powercreep problem.
Ohh PowerCreep In a Gacha Game Very Shocking Indeed
Im Very Shock/Worried About My Gacha Game Has Powercreep
That You Spend InThe game i don't know about that
I never Spend Money In any Free 2 Play i Played
I don't Really Care any of This at this Moment i can just quit the Game if it stop Being Fun
Love The Video my guy
As a BA fan, that's ad was some of the most half ass ad i've seen. Hope BA wouldn't sponsore someone this lukewarm again
u dont want a COSTUME for hina? XD
@@dangkhoa3953 most of what i said follows a brief from them to what they want me to say about the game and the good things about it. I also sent it to them multiple times . And guess what they are satified and you probably will see more of these sponsors lil pup
if you see this late comment now reply with "egg" if you are a MEGAGIGACHAD
ToF is powercreep fiesta, and whale territory. Getting a character to max rank and dupes, only to get powecrept two patches after.
In a bubble, powercreep is unavoidable, but it's how they handle their gamepaly systems that matters on the long run, to make it bearable. Some gachas do the "insert a new power" to old characters like PGR (leap system changing), FEH (refines and remix). Meanwhile others upgrade/add new systems to incentivize variety, like HSR's Pure Fiction or superbreak (it indirectly buffed units like Break Serval/Himeko/so many others).
As someone who doesn't play for Meta, but chase whom i like/vibe with, as long as the old units can keep up with content, it's fine. I still run units like Serval, Sushang and Hook, despite having Acheron, Boothill and Firefly. But yeah, Ruan Mei was a mistake, specially because new units WANT her as well.
My friend, you mention ToF is a powercreep fiesta and still play HSR? Why being so bias?
@@giangtrinhtruong7952 i already said my take on powercreep on the second paragraph.
It's not being biased, just personal preference, because ToF has some huge glaring issues.
HSR is a casual PvE gacha, carried by a great story and constant generous rewards. It has powercreep, yes, but it doesn't get in the way of the game systems nor the story. And you can clear end-game content and almost pull on every banner by playing regurlarly. The meme of "every patch is birthday patch because of the 10x gold tickets" is true.
ToF wears a skin of a MMORPG (almost an mmo-lite), but with gacha elements. The story is just a placeholder and barely enjoyable, you had to play religiously to get the minimum rewards of the events, bunny hop into countless dead channel zones just to boss grind, amongst other things. Powercreep didn't kil ToF but it was a huge factor, there are so so many other problemas that the devs themselves are going the "rebuilding the game". Since the beginning of the year, ToF is barely keeping less than 1k average players monthly, and declining.
And before getting flack for this comment, i played ToF for more than an a year daily since release, had a max awakened Frigg with Balmung and her matrix set, and many other invested limited ssr simulacrum.
This Moffo didn't mention Dehya and how broken ( literally broken as almost a nonfunctional kit) and they "fixed" her by adding her to standard banner ! Unsubbed >:(
jk ofc, Ily
I mean Xiangli Yao in Wuwa will literally power creep calcharo after 2 patches. Not sure if he will be stronger than Jinshi but will def be stronger than Calcharo
XY is burst dps while calcharo is sustained dps. Obviously there will be a difference in numbers. XY will be most likely used as a quick swap teammate.
That's a big issue with Hoyo.
Powercreeping to no end making all your invested time and energy into previous characters redundant.
Part of the reason why I won't spend money on their products anymore. I mean, we can already see the same thing happening with ZZZ.
Just make new characters with interesting kits, balance their powerbudget around whatever they are supposed to do, think outside of the box, make them harmonize with underused characters. Just this lazy way of "Let's increase their damage by roughly 10% and call it a day." is extremely tiresome.
Will you gain less profit/money? From a short-term perspective? Yeah, most likely. But it's not like you've barely writing black-numbers. You can absolutely afford to pedal it down in exchange for a more balanced and fun environment.
But companies will be companies I guess.
I don’t play ZZZ but from what I’ve experienced Genshin doesn’t really have that problem as much by virtue of expanding niche by niche rather than vertically by piling characters’ power on top of past characters continuously. For a game that does the latter, you can look at FEH, which I played for several years.
The lack of focus on combat endgame and the general ease of the game, and the new Imaginarium Theatre mode (though problematic and very disruptive on its own) focusing on building a range of characters rather than making individual characters as hyperoptimised as possible, all seem designed to evade the effects of powercreep as much as possible. Of course powercreep is there, but “powercreep pressure” on the player is lowered.
Now HSR I’ve certainly seen more complaints from my fellow players about. It’s a more limited gameplay form where more comes down to the mechanics, calculations and statistics, and character skills are fewer and more cut-and-dry (including because the game hardly ever explores further diversifications to the mechanics of combat with gimmicks like other turn-based games have). So there may be a greater risk of powercreep there, alongside it being a newer game-time will tell whether the devs are able to conservatively and sensibly limit the reach of powercreep or allow it to stack out of control.
Nice Gateoo Approved Tof Propaganda.
Youre trying to make it seem like neuvillete and furina invalidate any characters, and much like HSR, while newer teams clear faster, you can still clear with old teams.
i know you dont play Genshin but Genshin endgame is easy, dont need to pull Latest characters to clear, and HSR gives more than enough pulls to beat any content.
Unlike tof where you are useless in co-op and bygones leaderboards if you arent whaling.
Let tof go, gateoo and hotta did, its time to start shilling NTE, the next Genshin killer
Idk if you watched the video but you literally said the same points that i said lil pup
Bases comment but genshin is literally unkillable.
Im earlyy
AYO
powercreep doesn't exist in gacha games. it only exists in moba or multiplayer pvp games. In gacha games you can spend money to get characters in those games if a new hero is powercreeped their is nothing you can do about it. The difficulty of gacha games is dictated by how build your characters are. You shouldn't pull for meta. pull for what you like and even in moba people use characters they like and they are able to steam roll everyone even meta characters because they are so good with those heroes.
Hardly disagree. So many gachas have characters that cannot be used anymore its rare for gachas to not have powercreep characters . And mobas dont really have powercreep they can re balance and rework characters at anytime
@@stioorg powercreep doesn't exist for a game where you can existentially buy your way towards a c6 op character. all gacha games are easy anyways so powercreep doesn't even matter for difficult content. if your characters are built you can clear any content doesn't matter it is meta. characters in moba get rebalanced after powercreep but doesn't mean it didn't already do its damage. The only saving grace is you can ban characters but doesn't mean you still don't have a edge even after a nerf because moba are notorious for having powercreep and unbalanced characters. gacha are single players games so powercreep doesn't matter plain and simple. Your fighting against simple npcs
@@bobdaniels3692
Why are u talking like f2p players don't exist? We can't get all characters we want let alone getting copies for one
And no, I've been playing hsr for a long time and I have a really good account but recently I can't fully clear endgames because of the new meta. So powercreep does exist
@@bobdaniels3692 no one mentionned whales in this video , meta doesn't matter in that regards , we are talking about free 2 plays that's why i talk about 1 dupes or 0 dupes in the video, again you probably don't play many gacha games but a lot of gachas make some characters have no ability to clear content
and there is no powercreep in mobas AGAIN , maybe you don't know what powercreep is , but balance patches in mobas happen all the time and some get weaker some get powerful , that doesn't have to do with powercreep
@@PY3100 powercreep doesn't exist you can clear the game with the weakest characters you don't need c6. it a skill issue