Ultimatum: The Worst Comic of the 00s? - Comic Tropes (Episode 90)
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- Опубликовано: 17 фев 2018
- Photos of Bill Jemas, Joe Quesada and Mark Miller © Luigi Novi.
/ comictropes
In my opinion, Ultimatum is one of the worst comics of the 00s. It's overly violent and nothing much came of it. It's five issues of misery porn. Ostensibly, it was created to bring an end to the Ultimate universe for Marvel. But that plan was abandoned at some point, making the series fairly pointless.
I dig into what went into creating the Ultimate line of comics, discuss the main problems with Ultimatum after giving a synopsis, then try to theorize on why it all went so wrong. 
Развлечения
Ironically, the Ultimate Spider-man tie in to Ultimatum is what made me fall in love with the character. To see Spider-man choose to ignore Magneto and spend the entire event diving into the water over and over to save as many lives as he can was so powerful to 16 year old me that he became my favorite superhero. A horrible event highly influenced my tastes in comics for years to come in a positive way. Isn't that weird?
Ultimate Spider-Man is my favorite rendition of the character
That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.
Only because the overall product was bad, it doesn't mean you can't find some good in it. If they had figured out the plot before putting pen to paper, then maybe it could've turned out better. I guess you could say that the only character that was truly in-character here was Spider-Man, so no shade.
That's awesome.
So unique. So brave. Here's your medal of honour
Ultimatum, otherwise known as Everyone Dies because of Bad Writing
Chad Riggs And not just dying. Dying in some of the worst ways you could possibly imagine.
Roses Ske And cannibalism, can’t forget that good old cannibalism
Chad Riggs Don’t forget, after this event Ultimate Reed Richards went insane and eventually blew up a large portion of Europe.
It's the equivalent of a very angry Dungeon Master who just go: ROCKS FALL, EVERYBODY DIES!
@@battlion507 lmao
Can’t get over how bad the Captain America artwork is behind him.
Kelsey Wooten that’s a classic
Look at what is happening in the low left. Pretty sure that fat guy is about to get railed
He T H I C C
@@HamsterK37 That's the infamous Ultimate Warrior comic where he erm... Does things to Santa Claus (the fat guy you're referring to) like beat him up, strip him naked and erm... other things apparently.
He has bigger tits than Black Cat
I have to admit, I kinda really like the "multiple-man suicide vest" concept. I'd like to see it explored in a much more competent piece.
I thought that was a cool concept too. If they'd made a whole issue where the first half showed his actions and the second half dealing with the aftermath and discussing the mentality of suicide bombers, you could have really had something.
Really it was just the idea of Multiple Man being a bad guy. X-Factor v3 had a lot of great examples of different uses of his powers. He even accidentally killed a hydra cell while hypnotized because he kept doubling and didn't know when to stop. Squished everyone against the walls!
Come to think of it, that same issue the hydra scientist pointed out that each double has duplicated clothes, so it's not just biological. Then they gave multiple man a gun and had him duplicate, and the dupe had the same gun. "Now imagine instead of a gun we give him an atomic bomb..."
That could have been part of Civil War 1.
How the hell did Nightcrawler drown? Dude, just teleport to safety!
The water was anti teleport water
Safety was on screen only.
Because he’s blue and Sonic is also blue: Sonic can’t swim. Coincidence
Or Angel
I like to think that he tried that but just teleported himself deeper
The most bizarre thing about Blob eating Wasp was that in the Ultimate X-Men line, Blob is portrayed as a fairly sympathetic character. He's a bit of a slob and a member of the Brotherhood, but he was also a bit of a prankster and had an estranged daughter...
@@sylviafalls3719
The fuck is your issue
@@sylviafalls3719
Yes, be ashamed
oh shit... I didn't know that
Sylvia Falls
Rape is a fucking crime you maniac. People suffer as they are forced to do a sexual act against their own will, hurting them physically and mentally scarring them. If you think that’s ok, I recommend you to look for close mental institutions.
@@sylviafalls3719 I am reporting this comment to RUclips to get your account banned.
You might think you are being edgy or funny or shocking, but allowing toxic views like yours to go unchallenged in the 21st century would be to acknowledge how some humans have not progressed.
You disgusting piece of shit!
"Hey, Jeff?"
"Yeah?"
"Can you find some way to tie up ultimate?"
*Jeff's mind is filled with death and disturbing war images* Sure thing!
Why didn't we get Option B (Happy ending)? I mean, we already kinda had it just before B. M. Bendis departure from Marvel, but the rest of the heroes?
Jeff asked Robert Kirkman for help
It wasn't just his son. Michael Turner passed away June 2008 from the same cancer Loeb's son had. Loeb has remarked on how much he loved them both and how much their deaths affected him; especially the strength of character with which they both faced death. It hit him hard.
The Ultimate universe had some good ideas but quickly seemed to descend into trying to be as pointlessly edgy as possible just for the sake of it.
Mark Antill It became an issue of “What if” extended too long.
I was loving the crap out of UFF. It was a good retelling of the Silver Age stories, in my view. And some of the cosmic stuff in there was really creepy.
It's just fucking depressing🙄
The MCU is sort of what Ultimate Universe should’ve been.
Josh Gulisano Let's not get Crazy XD
Loeb's son was dying/died during writing this, so I look at it as a situation where he shouldn't have been writing at this time. Marvel should have pulled him from the project.
Erik Strothers
Well, his son died in 2005 and he wrote this in 2008-9, so I guess that is sorta possible.
My apologies. That's what happens when you get information second hand and don't verify it.
Loeb's Ultimate books are almost supernaturally bad. Ultimates 3 opens with the Ultimates (and their robo-butlers) lounging around the mansion watching a pirated DVD of Tony & Natasha's sex tape that Wasp bought from a street vendor. Then, (still on the first page, mind you) Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch leave to go have incestuous sex. His whole run on Ultimates is full of batshit crazy nonsense like this. That said, if writing some of the absolute worst comics of the era helped him cope with his grief (and it's a big if) then I'm glad they got made.
@@1BlessEdYou as someone that never read any Ultimate books, that got my with my guard down, what the fuck...? That sounds like The Boys.
oh. So I guess he decided to rush it or intentionally kill it off?
imo the only death done right in this event was Thor's - it's heroic, in character, ties into his lore in a significant way, and gives him an appropriately climactic final battle. if this were in another context and Thor's death was the only one, it could have been remembered as an iconic send-off to the character in the vein of pre-crisis Supergirl's death fighting the Anti-Monitor. instead it's just another of the dozens of deaths in this event that only stands out because it was a satisfying end to the character, opposed to everyone else where it feels like they were offed just to fill a quota :/
He didn't even die, he just banged Hella and returned back to life later.
I was the Production Artist on every issue of Ultimatum. Working with Jeph Loeb was difficult to say the least. Before the book would go to print he had constant last minute changes, which led to working many late nights. After the last issue we had a party to celebrate, but I ended up having to leave the party, because Jeph had more changes to make.
That’s actually insane.
I feel for you.
Was he grieving? I heard he lost his wife at that time.
@@magentapurpleyap5566 Damn. Poor Jeph.
Best thing to come out of Ultimatum is that splash page of Spider-Man diving into the water and saving people with JJJ watching. But that also happened in the pages of Ultimate Spider-Man which is my personal favorite Marvel series, so I’m a little biased.
Yes, that’s a great moment.
Jake Nap heh. Splash panel. Because he's diving into the water.
Reptil, Prince of lizard people fun puns are fun
JJJ was always a jerk to Spiderman but in ultimatum, that changed after Spiderman went diving into the water to save people while he was watching
Marcus Hairston i loved that. Ultimate Jameson actually wasn’t a terrible person. He had issues, but throughout the series he shows signs of being a good person and Ultimatum truly highlighted that. Also the decision to close the Daily Bugle after Ultimatum was really ballsy.
You know... If Marvel wanted to end everything with piss, blood and gore, they should've hired Garth Ennis instead of Loeb. His story would at least be more entertaining.
EgocentricHead Punisher Max was so great
EgocentricHead Nah, the guy would have made an even worse Job in my Opinion (The guy killed Wolverine in the most pathetic and non sensical way), Mainly because of his MASSIVE HATE BONER FOR SUPERHEROES
ironmaster64, Ennis' dismissive view on superheroes is the thing that would make things like Ultimatum have some kind of entertainment value. Like his work on The Boys - which works only because of Ennis' dislike for the genre and its tropes.
EgocentricHead Hmm maybe, but his Play on tropes is way too basic (Superman is a manchild, Captain America is a weak coward who only talks about USA,etc).
I actually enjoyed the Boys more because of the Interactions between the characters Mainly Hugie and Butcher (or anyone with hugie) they were engaging and kind of touching, Ennis seems to be a master in this....as long as their not Superheroes that is
Funny enough, Superman is the only super heroes he respect.
This honestly feels like snuff/guro fan fiction. It feels like a story made by someone who either got off on the murder and gore, or else was clinically depressed and channelling this through their work. In both cases, it also feels like the work of someone with profound disrespect for the source material and the underlying mechanics which made it work.
Three characters dying by being brutally eaten alive can't be a coincidence, and it makes no goddamn sense to happen, a character like Blob or even Sabretooth would never be cannibals, even if they might not consider humans the same species, it's such a gross and taboo idea that's just ridiculous, nobody while in the middle of a fight decides they want to fucking eat their opponent, not unless they were already doing that kind of shit long before hand, plus Hank Pym is a normal human with normal human sensibilities even if they're going with that excuse, why would he eat Blob (and therefore his Wife, The Wasp)? He wouldn't unless a shitty writer with a major issue or a weird fetish made him do it
@@theleonpasta7336 Cannibalism in the Ultimate universe is such a odd common occurrence. While Bruce Banner is still heroic, the Hulk is a villain in that universe. And Banner is a vegan so the Hulk decides to eat people.
The ultimate universe goals was to make a more "realistic" and "gritty" version of the Marvel characters. But it ended up feeling a teenage boys version of what a dark and realistic story should be like. With even heroic character being jerks or motivated by clout or money, having a lot of needless violence and edgy content and lots of sexual stuff where it doesn't make any sense to have. While there was some good stories, the only good legacy the ultimate universe has, seems to be the Spiderman books. Especially when Miles Morales took over.
Ultimatum proved that Stan's vision of Spider - Man is still the best version of the wallcrawler.
this story also forgot how doom and thors hammer looked in the ultimates
I remember Doom looking like a metallic demon and got very cofused when saw that video with classic universe doom look.
Yeah, why the fuck does Magneto have 616 Mjolnir?
I loved Ultimate universe, but Ultimatum went a bit too far with too much deaths and just EVERYTHING being so dark and depressing.
No Name ever read old man Logan?
Yeah, but most deaths there occurred off-screen
Marvel Ruins.
Oh god don't even mention it
Ever read Invincible?
I loved The Long Halloween so much, it's always the first comic I recommend when someone who doesn't read comics wants to get started. The fact that Jeph Loeb also wrote Ultimatum disappoints me to no end. I hated what Mark Millar was doing with The Ultimates, and his cynicism is IMO a big reason why the Ultimate line could not sustain itself in the long run. Trying to copy him was a dumb idea to begin with but the execution was a catastrophe.
The thing is this event could’ve worked really well. The idea of Magnito becoming fully radicalized to the point where he truly believes ending millions of lives mutant or other is interesting in a sort of MCU Thanos way. The Tsunami is devastating and the deaths of millions is heartbreaking just on its own without the hero deaths(which were not necessary given Spider Man’s book had done so much to build up that city that in killing most of it it has a massive emotional effect on the viewer) in the end Magneto being defeated by the realization that he was wrong from the very beginning and giving up is a good way to beat that character without a big dumb fight.
If I could make changes, decrease the amount of super hero deaths has much has possible, have most if not all the hero’s focused on saving lives with Nick and Magneto’s confrontation and subsequent realization on behalf on the hands of Magneto being a stand off thing, hell don’t even kill Magneto, let him sit and suffer for his mistakes. Get rid of the Doctor Doom stuff and I think that would’ve made for a good story with massive stakes, and crushing tragedy, but an overall focus on trying to learn from the mistakes made to lead to what happened happening and hero’s trying to save lives more then anything else.
Or keep Dr. Doom in it but have him do something different by saving innocent bystanders as he actually is as capable of good as evil.
@@stigrabbid589 Maybe even trying his best to protect latveria. He may be a villain, but that man really loves the country he rules over
Rob liefeld captain framed on your wall? Bold move. I heard if you stare at his pecks for too long you are sent into the dark dimension
I think it's just a background for the show, since Liefields bad art is definitely a trope..hahha
"The Dark Dimension"? Is that what we're calling gouging your own eyes out now?
Triple D pecks Hahahah love robs art man , it’s so out there sometimes .
Hah, thanks, I lol so much!))
Framed with electrical tape.lol
Yeesh, that was rough. Comics seem to have a hard time getting death right. Characters either spring back to life, robbing the death of its meaning, or the death is meaningless to begin with. Why is it so difficult? Is it the idea of permanent change that scares them?
One major problem with Superhero comics is that the people who work on the comic are constantly changing. One creative team will do something, then when the new people take over, they'll undo everything the previous guy did that they didn't like, and the readers feel like their time has been wasted.
I stopped giving a shit about continuity in the mid 2000s when pretty much every character went through the death merry go round and got retconned to death. Why do characters in comic universes even weep when characters die? I just now read archs and pretend they are self contained stories.
Japanese manga seems to handle this a lot better, both death and permanent changes to the stories worlds, maybe it has something to do with the fact more Japanese manga (with few exceptions) have a starting point and a clear end, they don't have many running series that keep going for decades and keep getting rebooted (One Piece for example is long running series but it was never rebooted and when it end it will end for good).
A good example would be Full Metal Alchemist, when death happens there it sticks and it has a clear purpose in the story, a certain death of a beloved character early on represents that pretty damn well (anyone who watched the anime or read the manga will know what I'm talking about it).
+TheHunterWolf
I can't think of a manga series that has an overarching universe with multiple writers working on different parts of it. Not something you can compare with Marvel and DC, you could compare manga with Image.
Fables does a pretty good job with perma death even with there being an in story explanation for popular characters being able to revive from almost anything. Of course that's a stand alone title that didn't have to connect to anything, and while it is long running, it hasen't been around nearly as long as various superhero comics.
It feels like the title “Ultimatum” is a poor attempt at fitting the word Ultimate in the title, so you know it takes place in universe 1610.
the fact that this was written by the same guy behind Spider-Man Blue and Hulk Grey is absolutely nuts💀
Loab hasn't been the same since the death of his son.
I can’t stop staring at the background in the beginning. I don’t know whats worse Captain America or Spider-Man...is that super man punching testicles?!
And is Sandman fisting Spidey?
Batman spanking a grown woman as another guy films it. Looks like the Riddler filming it.
The entire thing is weird, we got a fat guy on the ground with a naked dude, Spider-Man getting spider fisted, Arnold and another dud bro-wrestling, Captain America the thickest of the land, Some dude dunking a basketball Superman punching Super Balls and Batman spanking a woman while a creep take pictures.
@@Predator20357 The fat guy and the naked dude looks like it has a Xmas tree in the background, so I assume the fat man was santa and the other guy was stealing his suit.
Cafeeine Addicted huh, that is weird
Yeah... Ultimatum sucked ass. The story was killing characters for the sake of killing them, and as beautiful as David Finch's artwork was, it couldn't save it. In retrospect, it was the beginning of the end of the ultimate universe.
It was supposed to be the end of the end. Then they saw the sales figures for issue 1 and un-cancelled all the books.
I did kind of like how all the books now had to work around one third of the core cast being dead though. And it's where they first got the "Death Of Wolverine" story idea from.
At least it lead to The Maker, which is pretty cool.
@@arnahunas4048 He is. I wish they'd do more with him.
I've always felt like the Ultimate universe was doomed from the start. It was just a flash in the pan idea to boost sales, but it just couldn't last when the main universe still exists.
The term is "purge". Look at how many X-Men and Fantastic Four characters Loeb and Remender were brought in to kill off back when it seemed that Disney wouldn't buy out the live action rights to those franchises. The Romulus story was a 616 bloodbath trying to irreversibly deep 6 James Howlett, archnemeses of his, Wildchild, and the Calasantos sisters.
That panel of Dr Strange getting crushed is downright Disturbing.
With respect to Jeph Loeb, yes, I agree with you that his writing went downhill after his family tragedy.
“...Uniquely terrible comic book.”
Marvel’s Civil War 2 would like to have a word with you.
I've got some videos about Civil War 2.
Xavier Perez i haven't read civil war 2 yet but something tells me that it isn't as bad as the comic where a b-list villain killed and gruesomely ate a founder of the avengers for a shock ending to the first issue.
Xavier Perez Lets NOT get Crazy, Civil war 2 was terrible it was really bad, but Ultimatum is on a WHOLE NEW LEVEL
Xavier Perez Civil War 2 is bad, but at least there are some badass moments and some fraction of a meaningful story.
Yeah, but this stinker came first.
Blob eating Wasp was disgusting. Only time I ever threw a comic book out.
Lol
You weren't the only one when i look at ultimatum back when i was in middle school i stopped reading marvel ulimate comics and anything related to marvel until twenty eleven.
i thought it was cool haha
nigga, grow the fuck up. Its a comic book
dafullclip it sacrificed story with edgy bullshit
This is like when the Inhumans was meant to supplement the X Men, despite how becoming an Inhuman is a conscious choice, which had many levels of wrong.
How could they not realize that was a bad idea?
@@concept5631 Money
@@michael.471 Still hilariously stupid
The ultimate universe is like a pizza cutter all edge and no point
Horrible take. The work by Millar, Ellis and Hickman was generally great.
Nowhere in any ultimate comic arc before Ultimatum had severe gore or deaths before that.
Sure it had some edge with the Ultimates but The Spider-Man stuff and Fantastic Four were pretty fun. Loeb ruined it.
AmericanNohbuddy ™ The first run of Ultimate Spiderman is by far my favorite run in all of comics. It just did almost everything right. A mature take on established story arcs that was still fun.
The Ultimates was pretty mature and cerebral, and a lot of really violent stuff went down, specifically with the Hulk. But Ultimatum went way too far. Not good.
Not to mention this event contributed to Ultimate Reed Richards going crazy and becoming a villain.
Roses Ske well to be fair tho Hickman made that awesome.
AmericanNohbuddy ™ now sjws are raping the corpse of comics. I never felt more like a comodity than I did during "pride month".
I am completely fascinated by Ultimatum. The story of how this was allowed to come out, and how much of a train wreck it turned out to be is super interesting to me
There are times in which I'm glad that I never really got into the Ultimate universe outside of Spider-Man, like seeing that Hulk's raging hatred for Freddie Prinze Jr. is an actual storyline. Ultimatum is the epitome of that bullet dodging, as I can't really imagine just how much it would have hurt to have been one of the first Marvel fans to see Jeph Loeb mutilate over 30 iconic characters for cheap drama and because it's the finale so why not.
I remember Superman/Batman #25 was the last issue of his run on the title and the first issue to come out after his son passed away. It was a sour ending to what had been a solid run. I tried not to think too much of it but Loeb just started cranking out hot trash with each new title after. On top of this, Loeb admitted his working process was to not start scripting the next issue until the previous one was fully drawn. So there indeed was an element of “writing on the fly”. This break down of Ultimatum was spot on. The ship of the Ultimate universe needed a captain but instead hit a iceberg instead in the form of Loeb.
Could the violent deaths have been influenced by the flash in the pan Marvel Zombies craze that capitalized on showing the graphic deaths of fan favorite heroes? (I had stopped following this story by this point...)
Despite that, if you read the runs, the violence isn’t THAT grotesque.
In the original volume (not the Ultimate crossover), there are 3 feasts, Magneto, Silver Surfer and Galactus. But In these 2 the panels kind of go PG-13.
Even In a zombie story, the writters had some sense of taste.
MQF II
Sadly they fucked it up in the sequels which sucked (mainly because Robert Kirkman wasn’t involved and the new writers just tried to emulate his style). The sequels were a plot hole-filled mess with a convoluted story, timeline and a bunch of unnecessary gore.
@@thecollector4332 I though MZ3 with Machine Man was pretty fun
So Doctor Doom died like a punk in the Ultimate Universe? Thats odd. Its kind of unbelievable.
They later retconned it so that this was someone else.
skunkape Oh, that seems more likely. That could also explain the change between the costumes in Ultimate Fantastic Four and Ultimatum. Was it a Doombot?
I think it was more convoluted than that. I think it may have been Sue and Johnny's brainwashed mother? It was weird, whatever it was.
skunkape I also don’t understand how Doom returned from the Marvel Zombies Universe. And the sequels of Marvel Zombies don’t even mention Doom. It’s odd. It almost feels like it was made by 5 different writers that had no coordination between their stories. Is the Marvel Zombies Universe in the Ultimate Comics different than the the normal Marvel Zombies comics? Jeez. This is making my head hurt.
It was a Doom Bot
The explanation I have heard for Ultimatum is that the plan was for the Ultimate Universe to be destroyed at the end and rebooted, with all the dead characters not in the new continuity. So there'd be an X-Men iteration that never had Charles Xavier and so on. But at something approaching the last minute, they changed their minds, which is why the Ultimate Universe comics kept going. I can't say that the original plan would have resulted in anything better, but it couldn't have been much worse, could it?
"Massively Killing your characters and/or replacing them doesn't make you a good writter"
A lot of 2000's and 2010's marvel and dc writters:**SpongeBob throwing paper into the fire**
My theory is that Loeb just has a thing for gore.
darth salad Sorry, hit reply accidentally while scrolling.
darth salad then your theory is wrong.
He doesn’t usually go for gore like this.
My guess is he was told to copy Millar.
Or perhaps Garth Ennis? Who does way more over the top blood & gore for the sake of such in his books.
Thats actually a fucking fetish..
darth salad Loeb wasn't even close to this bad when he wrote Hush or The Long Halloween.
Doctor Strange's death traumatised me for years
This was one of the first comics I read when I was little. Let's just say to this day I hate anything "edgy".
I fucking hated that part so much.
Without taking away from any of this analysis, I just have to say something...
Electricity & Magnetism are the same fundamental force. Magneto is OP. Not only could he puppeteer Wolverine, he could be nigh-godlike in his abilities.
From controlling any & every minute action of an Iron Man suit or Ultron bot, even if they were made of non-magnetic material; to causing neural misfires in a person's brain, thus inducing a seizure; to walking around as a living EMP; to shifting the earth's magnetosphere to attack any area with massive amounts of devastatingly ionized solar wind.
Heck, if he wanted, he could hit Storm with lightning.
So don't sleep on Magneto. He's legit omnipotent, most people just don't know it yet.
because he isnt used in that way. He hasnt been shown to use any kind of electricity related powers and he wont, because his thing is magnetism. Probably dont overthink stuff too hard, its comic book powers. In fact, if you want an explanation just assume that kind of stuff would need too precise of a use of his powers and something. He just, moves metallic stuff
Until you point a wooden prop gun at him
I stopped reading superhero comics around 2006 and since then felt no real desire to start collecting them again because I became tired of their bad storytelling habits. Then there is Jeph Loeb who I liked less and less with a every series that he took over after I read Superman for all seasons (which I really liked). I think he would have been much more criticized if he hadn't been constantly paired with popular artists. So Ultimatum looks like the epitome of what I have come to dislike with superhero comics and writers in general. Guess I'll have to read it then to see for myself because your video made really curious 🤣 I think having read Ultimates 3 (because of Madureira's art which was the only good thing to say about it) last year is a good preparation.
I gotta admit, I liked Ultimate universe but they fucked it up. It seems to cater much on shock value than a good story.
You read my mind, dude. It's so sad how they messed it up. It was my favorite comic universe before Ultimatum. T_T
I can't even look at things the same again
bastardjustice
Too much death didn’t work in GOT either. It was great in the Red Wedding and then “the law of diminish returns kicks in.”
I think it could be seen as kind of a bold move, to not only kill a lot of heroes, but also make it so over the top brutal and disturbing (like Blob eating the Vasp). But as you said, it serves no purpose at all, it's almost like if it's there just to shock you or make you feel uncomfortable. Of course there are some ugly stuff going on in different comics, but to me what happens here actually feels like it doesn't belong to this universe at all.
Филипп М yea it felt like a MAX book because of how graphic it was. Ultimate can get away with darker stuff because it’s kind of like Wildstorm for Marvel. But it shouldn’t have been as explicit as this.
I'm reminded Loeb wrote Gorilla Grodd as a cannibal in an Ed McGuiness comic. But like, I really got the impression Loeb's writing is more what the artists wanted, and often times artists just wanted to just draw BIG SPLASH PAGES and flip the page and something new would happen. Like I never got the impression he would want to explore character dialogs or even then metaphysical philosophy.
Ultimatum is like that one time Quesada thought it would be nice to have a dark and gritty story, but ended up being a slash-fic quality edgelord fest devoid of coherent thought.
Ultimatum was a mistake, nothing more, nothing less.
The blob eating wasp is fkn gross omg
Agree that was so messed up
After that I stopped reading the comic
I wouldn't go as far as to say that the comic is dark because Loeb's son died, but there's no doubt that he'd become cynical about comics at that point. And I totally believe he was making it up as he went along. I think he was approached to do Ultimatium to kind of clean the slate for that universe, but instead of coming up with complex story, he went, "Bah, I'll just do this superhero snuff comic, the fans will think it's 'gritty'!"
I would like to see something like the ultimate universe tried again, a separate continuity or these characters that doesn’t need to go back to the status quo, let characters change, retire, make death permanent, show the next generation of hero’s rise and grow as many of the old character move on or stop. I know some of this has been done to varying extent, but I guess what I really want is a world that feels dynamic, growing, and changing rather then knowing things will go back to normal eventually, will probably never happen on the scope I want though.
16:18 The worst part about that was that the relationship between Charles and Eric was _different_ in the Ultimate Universe. There were several instances wherein they are implied to have been working together, to some unknown goal. Clearly Loeb didn't get the memo there...
I have noticed a big spike in quality on your channel recently, keep up the good work :)
Geek Workshop Thank you. I’ve been eating more broccoli. Maybe that’s been helping.
I had never even heard of this series. I missed the entire decade of 2000 when I stopped collecting comics. This storyline was entirely shocking and bewildering to me. I'll have to see if it's released as a paperback as a curiosity, but damn...some of this stuff seemed like Loeb was just going for cheap shock value. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Great vid, Chris!
Rometiklan It was collected and released as a trade paperback but I don’t think a lot were printed.
I saw some panels from one of these Ultimate universe comics where Magneto's kids were in an incestuous relationship. When a recently thawed out Captain America remarked that this was very unusual, all of the other characters strangely had no problem with this, acting as if Cap was a racist opposed to an interracial couple or something. It was really bizarre.
@Rometiklan: please don't read it. Ultimate Universe was good UNTIL Ultimates 3/Ultimatum. I honestly think Jeph Loeb lost his groove after his son died and just started doing things BECAUSE.
I just couldn't stop laughing at the comic panels behind him
For me, 1610 started off great, but as time went on the Ultimate line became more and more depressing, storyline wise.
There's some great insight here. While I mainly just read the Ultimate X-Men line (which I ironically, I really liked AFTER Ultimatum), I did see a lot of uncessarily negative things in the Ultimate universe, especially in the Ultimates series, so I guess it isn't too surprising that Ultimatum was so negative. Just everything from Hawkeye's family, the gross relationship between Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, and all sorts of other things. I thought the Ultimate universe was supposed to be "modern", not just straight up horrible. Well, maybe modern in the sense that have the superheroes could be guests on Jerry Springer. They got to a point where it was less a "modern" retelling, to a "Ultimatizing" characters to be more edgy and dark. Like, they thought they didn't do a bad enough job of that in the 90's. I think the Ultimate universe had a lot of potential in itself, and really, only Spider-Man met that potential, not just Bendis' run with Peter Parker, but also Miles Morales.
"modern" is usually just a buzzword for either "fits my personal politics and beliefs better" or "super freaking edgy as hell". Modernization is necessary for a lot of stories. But the word "modernization" itself is a buzzword with no true meaning.
Peter was the only real hero of the entire setting (as the other were all edgelordy jerkass) and his (very fitting) death sacrificing himself to protect others being the inspiration for others like Miles to be the best hero possible is the most fitting legacy for a spiderman
David Finch is a fantastic artist, tho, and if you’re gonna have some crazy stuff going on, he’s a great guy to render the craziness...
His art is the best part of these comics but I also don't think it's his best work. Still, that's just one person's opinion.
This is still your best vid imo, I like your more positive content as well but you just so precisely pick apart what doesn’t make this work I love it
The artwork in the top left corner literally brought tears to my eyes 🤣
This is why I am loving dc rebirth right now because dc rebirth isn’t this grim or bloody and isn’t mean spirited like this trainwreck
LORDE OWS THE KING Oh what an edgy 14 old you are.
You must be proud to talk like this to someone uou would never meet and who would never care of what you said.
MrSafior oooooF
"?"
All new all different was as terrible as Ultimatum but for different reasons
MrSafior
"oh noo, somebody called out one of us, better call them 14 year olds as if means anything" by the book.
LORDE is right, grow a pair and stop being submissive numale (unless you already vasectomied yourself).
Wow, I never thought I would miss the Comics Code Authority.
Bruh moment
That is the sick burn to end all sick burns.
Aside from me burning this comic because it sickens me.
The shame of using Madrox as a suicide bomber is that you have this wonderful mechanic that could make a full standalone story (strap a suitcase nuke on him and it duplicates with him, he could be the greatest weapon of mass destruction ever) that could be used as an event in and of itself.
Gonna drop in on this nearly 4 year old video to say that Invincible had a Ultimatum-like event and handled it with significantly more grace, and it had a lasting impact on the Invincible universe.
After watching the whole video, all I can say is I'm glad I wasn't emotionally invested in these characters. Wonder what the fans thought at the time.
This fan thought it was awesome
They hated it.
Idk why this popped up in my recommendation but it was super interesting! I’ve never really read comics, but seeing that panel of Wasp getting eaten makes me so sick, that’s so gross it’s horrible 😰😥
I'm a relatively new viewer, but I think your monocle gag in this video is one of the funniest things you've done, and I find a lot of your jokes pretty funny
You are the man. Just stumbling on your channel. I have a marathon to enjoy now.
Oh also side note I completely forgot to mentioned the doctor doom in this story isn’t the real doctor doom but a imposter and who’s this imposter well it was none ever then Susan Storm and Johnny storm mom who the thing killed while the real ultimate doctor doom was trapped in the marvel zombie universe this entire time
But that was a retcon. When this was written it was intended to actually be Doctor Doom.
That's comics for ya.
skunkape yup it actually happened in ultimate ff future foundation but in the ultimate marvel universe
I was never really into the Ultimate line. From what little I do know about the Ultimate line seemed too gritty and dark for me, at least at some points. But Ultimatum sounds really gross, and you are right, pointless. They wanted shock, but in all the wrong ways. This was just a bad way to attempt to end the line.
You can read Ultimate Spider-Man and enjoy it on its own. It's a good Spider-Man book.
skunkape Thanks, I might check out a few issues. From what I know it does seem like one of the better Ultimate titles.
Not all of the Ultimate line was super dark. Ultimate Spider-Man is great. I also enjoyed Ultimate X-Men until about the 8th volume were it starts to get inconsistent and the grittiness takes hold. I remember liking the Namor arc of Fantastic Four but not much else. The Ultimate comics take on Avengers was done far better by the live-action Avengers movie.
It’s pronounced “Mike Mallard”? I had no idea. Great video!
CARALHO, O IZZYNOBRE MANO
It isn’t. Mark MILL-ar.
1) Lovely view from your home! 2) Despite the violent ending, I loved the fact that the hammer re-emerges during the War of the Realms saga. 3) It doesn't have to end violently, but I consider if it wouldn't be way healthier for comics if each series - and each generation of characters - actually didn't follow a story arc that had an ending. That would allow for new characters, new themes... Of course, movie rights and such assets might suffer at first... But I'd rather have great stories to read.
It was so bad. I was shocked it was allowed.
So bad, Bendis brought 616 Wasp back so we'd have at least one Janet.
You hit the nail on the head with the over the top violence. Things can truly get to a point where gory things are meaningless or not shocking anymore, and ultimatum is a perfect example of this.
I definitely agree with the conjecture that huge continuities scare off new readers because I’m one of those people. It’s why I like non-canon stories like Long Halloween and separate universes like Ultimate. I also mainly buy my comics in volumes so that I can get context and a full story. I really wish more comic stories were contained so that new readers like myself would be welcome.
Ultimatum feels like a meal that lunch ladies force you to eat...
What kind of Cafeteria do you go to ?!
@@jernie9384 everyone died in his Cafeteria
This was the big thing that turned me away from the Ultimate Comics initially. Granted, I was real young when it launched, but even then the extra edge of this new universe wasn't appealing and Ultimatum was just overboard.
Randomly saw this video recommended, and I have to say this was an excellent watch. I remember reading this series in junior high and it was a very disturbing, almost needlessly sorrowful, story. I agree with every point. Awesome video overall!
I've been making a scifi webcomic series for the past 10 or so years, I can say that when I was going through an awful part in my life that ultimately had me losing someone close to me- it affected my writing, my art.
I wasn't trying for edgelord stuff or anything, but things did wind up being dark. I'm used to violent stuff because of the movies I grew up with in the 90s but still it was more graphic than it needed to be and the comic is still serious and bloody but perhaps less so these days.
Now I have a second webcomic that's far more light hearted, colorful and optimistic to go with the scifi one.
I think they went with Ultimatum because it's sort of a play ob words with Ultimate. But you are right, someone should have made an ultimatum somewhere in the story.
Jeph Loeb pulled a Snyder(zack). If Millar was Nolan with realistic grittyness, then Loeb just did what Snyder did, saw what was on the surface and made it more extreme without meaning.
xion 1212 HA visual Genius maybe (as long as he has a comic book page to recreate) but he is no writer, remember sucker punch, remember Batman v Superman
Batman didn't EAT any criminals in Batman V Superman. The comparison of this hideous comic and the movie is just ridiculous.
hack snyder**
@xion 1212 A genius in the "Style over Substance" department
+xion 1212 hahahahaah
This is exactly how I feel with the newer dc animated movies , in dark war literally every character dies , becomes a robot or in the case of the punching bag Nightwing , goes insane aside from a select few. The ending is just so depressing cause everybody is just reset and we’re left with nothing
It’s weird that Jeph Loeb did this as he oversaw Agents of Shield which is my favorite tv show of all time.
Let's not also forget that the X-Men comics were created as almost an homage to Malcolm X and Dr King and the Civil Rights movement and the battle of African Americans in this country.
To minimalize the X-Men in the comics, it kind of resonates in real life and almost a slap to the face of what Stan Lee and crew did, etc.
Daniel Cook
Thankfully only in this sick universe mutants are an experiment. (Although in the old man Logan comics it’s said that mutants are just an anomaly).
@@thecollector4332 I think that's as a result of Ultimate Marvel attempting to tie many heroes origins together. Almost everything traces back to Captain America, Nick Fury and Wolverine.
And in the early 2000s, Civil Rights movements don't really fit into the cultural zeitgeist that Ultimate Marvel was drawing from. Ultimate Marvel is talking about genetic engineering where old Marvel talked about nuclear weapons.
Harry McCusker
You’re right.
There's no evidence of the malcolm x and luther king connection.
The thing is that the Ultimate Universe could've been far better and the writers had something when they wanted to give a slightly grounded take of the Marvel Universe with a pinch of edge in it, but they went too far with the edge. I get this was the early 2000s where a bunch of edgelords were active, but even the writers had to of known they were going too far.
And the funny thing is that the comics still continued after Ultimatum.
I'm just loving the framed bad comic book art on your wall.
Fisting was heavy in the golden age eh
Love watching your videos while falling asleep.
If I remember correctly, my read at the time was that Loeb was just the sort of dork who would’ve viewed the Ultimate line (particularly Miller’s work on The Ultimates) as some sort of insult to the “real” characters and an affront to his childhood or whatever, and this all came from a place of genuine malice.
FACTS
Wow, now I'm really glad I skipped the whole Ultimate Universe thing back then.
So, which Ultimate story arcs would you recommend?
All of Ultimate Spider-Man (the title goes through a change after Ultimatum and begins starring Miles Morales. But it's all pretty good.
If you enjoy big budget movie spectacle type stuff, the first two volumes of Ultimates. I think they went a bit overly dark but it has some of Bryan Hitch's best artwork and a lot of big, high-concept action.
Thanks, I'll check out the Ultimates. :)
aldi404 yup indeed also as for another recommendation I recommend reading ultimate x-men because that series was really good.
aldi404 first 4-5 years of Ultimates probably produced some of the best stories Marvel has ever released.
Cannot fault the whole Spider-Man run and the first 2 Ultimate titles.
The rest is pretty much hit and miss but Ultimate Spider-Man was probably the best run of comics l have read for any character.
aldi404 Ultimate Spiderman, all of it.
I cannot explain why I like your intro so much.
On your theory about Loeb...something like that definitely affects a person. As an artist and someone who went through such an issue I can tell you it definitely affects your creative output as well as your creative tone and style
To be fair, eating Angel *is* something Sabertooth would do, and Dormmamu exploding Strange's head is awesome.
I think Jeph Loeb is a great writer but this series was trash.
@Robert Kenny I think he is implanted by DC to ruin marvel lol. His stuff with DC(long Halloween, hush,public enemies, etc) is amazing, but his stuff with marvel is pretty out there.
Robert Kenny He was just a producer, not a writer.
He's either amazing or horrible, he's never made anithing in between
His writing is just hit or miss (I know what you're thinking shut the fuck up)
Have you read Ultimates 3? Yet more trash from this ...writer
You sold me on getting the back issues. It is The Transformers Movie snuff film in comics I have been looking for and I thank you for the information on this mini series.
Totally agree about it being his grief and loss getting worked out on the page. It's sad, but consider all those fictional deaths to be a marker for his personal loss. It actually lends the work some artistic meaning that way. He had a great run on Superman in the 2000s, defining that era as much as Mcguinnes art. Superman for all seasons is one of the all time best minis. I believe he will do great inspiring work again. I wish him well.
I love the fact they Quicksilver says that Magneto has gone soft..... though he was responsible for killing most of the X-Men in the story and manipulated the earth’s weather killing thousands. The only thing soft here is the BS this comic expects us to buy.
When I read this myself, I thought it was intended that wasn't really Magneto who killed Xavier. First, he doesn't use his powers during that scene. Wouldn't Magneto be more likely to kill Xavier by skewering him with his own wheelchair or something instead of snapping his neck? Second, near the end of the story Magneto talks like Xavier is still alive. Who was the killer then? I guess Mystique would make the most sense.
I actually quite liked the Ultimate comics post-Ultimatum. They seemed unafraid to do stories that drastically altered the characters or the world itself. Maybe they figured whatever they did couldn't make the damage any worse.
Wonderfull channel, I dont know how could have so few subs because its informative and entertaint at the same time. Congrats from Spain and keep the good work!!!
Spot on as always. I always seek these out when they drop.