Reader Paul - Coffee in Church - An Orthodox response to John Piper and Protestant Chaos
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Minor correction for transparency:
At the 6:50 mark, I said that catechumens were historically removed from the nave but that’s not true. They were in the narthex and then kicked out from there. Thus, they weren't even allowed in the nave!
I cry almost everytime we read in the pre-communion prayers together, “How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my clothing will accuse me.” Nothing compares to the beauty of the Holy Orthodox Church.
We have a small parish and I (a catechumen who is baptised Anglican) read this prayer. I literally just started attending church a year or so ago and im just an average dude coming out of a life of hedonism yet here i am in a 110 year old church reading this it’s like yes, I am not worthy at all.
I’m trying to become orthodox. I think the rest of america should follow suit
Repentance starts with us.
May it be blessed!! Best way to start is to find a parish and start talking to the priest. Orthodoxy is best understood through Her Divine Liturgy.
Yes! I agree! I grew up ukrainian catholic, our divine liturgy is nearly identical, it's so mystically sanctifying, glorifying God not ourselves. God bless you!
America needs Orthodoxy.
Nay, not just America. The whole world.
Spot on!!!
The lack of reverence and historical grounding was one of the first cracks of many in my Protestantism.
To enter deep into History is to begin to cease to be Protestsnt.
John Henry Newman
@@thomasjorge4734 “…and to be DEEPER in history is to cease to be papalist”
--Doubting Thomas 😎
The relativism and subjectivity is really what lead me out of Protestantism. This is so well done.
Same here, when I was protestant the relavatism made it feel the same as atheist. Atheists say "do what you want, it doesnt matter as long as you don't hurt anyone", protestants would say "do what you want, it doesnt matter as long as you say its in the Bible somehow, or say you have faith".
Going to church felt very arbitrary during those times.
Thank God for the Orthodox Church 🙏🏾☦️🙏🏾
As a new convert, I can attest to the tears during liturgy and vespers. Even in catechumen classes learning about the church. I try to hold them back, but there are times where I cannot. And even in saying that I am constantly crying from the reverence that I feel, I can also say, I have never felt more at home than I do in the Orthodox Church. ❤☦️❤️
I hug you with love from Romania!❤
@@LeviGabriel-mb9ot Thank you! With everything happening around the world and so close to you, I pray you remain safe. Hugs and love back to you. 🤗
@@jlynn5680 Thank you so much, God bless you!🤗🤗🤗
@@LeviGabriel-mb9ot you as well ❤️
Tears are a spiritual gift
Wow, as a reluctant Protestant this is painfully true 😢
You are an honest person. I’m still a Protestant but am investigating the Eastern Orthodox Church going on 9 months now. Why? Because I love Christ and I want to follow Him in truth. The more I investigate, the more I realize just how polluted the waters of Protestantizism is with all the different belief systems that are mostly heretical (word of faith, apostolic reformation, pentalcostalism etc.) I hope you will take the same path I have been on. God Bless.
May our risen Lord continue to bless you both and guide you home🙏☦️
It's hard, because of the American way of Christianity is like Sunday only, since me becoming a catechumen I only want to stay in the church the world seems dull to me
@@iamthatguytheonlyoneso true.
Yes I’m guilty as charged of most of the things mentioned in the video. I have also noticed in the charismatic church this statement likes to be thrown around,,,” shed off your religious spirit “, “don’t be so religious “, I have a relationship not a religion “…….and so on….🤷♂️🤦♀️
When I began to think about it more and more,, it just felt like a coping mechanism to justify their means of worship while scrap anything that’s actually traditional…🧐
I was over here like "what, people are seriously drinking coffee in the middle of church?"
And then you actually have to experience the indignation of those that can't believe you'd suggest they shouldn't.
At first I thought the title was referring to coffee hour after the liturgy 😂 eating at all in church is so foreign to me
It’s become an entertainment experience. Popcorn at the movies; coffee in church.
SPOT. ON.
Glory to Jesus Christ.
Glory forever! ❤️☦️
Glory to God!☦ True heavenly worship is ONLY at the Eastern Orthodox Church! I can NEVER go back to "C.C.M and 4 blank walls!"
Wonderful video, as always! And you are right about never again desiring to go back to a non-denominational service once you get used to the Liturgy of the Orthodox Church. I have thought that many times since becoming a catechumen. God bless you!
I say the same
So true, and especially personal towards the end when you describe the experience of a Divine Liturgy. My first time it was so overwhelming (and I was of course lost as to order and flow, so to speak) that I told my wife I had to leave just as people were going to venerate the Holy Cross. TBH, in retrospect it was not just a little pride as well, because the tears were flowing and I was too proud to do so amongst strangers. 11 months later, as catechumens since just before Pascha, the prayers and hymns of Divine Liturgy have supplanted every former "ear-worm" music as I go about my work day---It's as if Liturgy is replaying itself in my mind and heart..."again and again" as it were. From The Great Doxology to the Thrice-Holy Hymn to the Creed to the last "Lord Have Mercy...Father, bless" and I spend the days in the remembrance of God. There is absolutely nothing in either my Protestant or even my RCC days to compare in the slightest. Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Welcome home. 🙏🏻☦️
Fellow Protestant here. I’m severely disappointed with modern worship that has no healthy fear of God or adoration. Good vid
@amandabosebat 1985 - When I was a Protestant, I felt the same way as you do. And I was the "Praise and Worship Leader"! For me, there was only 1 solution to the problem, and that was to convert to Orthodoxy! That was 20 years ago, and I never looked back. And I've been the choir director and head chanter for most of those 20 years! What a major difference!!!
I tear up so often during the liturgy, espeacially the liturgy of the eucharist. Thanks for the lovely video!
Liturgy is always a disconnection from time and space for me. I feel transported.
I remember explicitly being forbidden from bringing anything but water into the "Worship Space" at my Pentecostal congregation.
That changed when the old Pastor's Nephew came in. The Church Library was replaced by a coffee stand and "traditional" worship was relegated to the 8 O'Clock service.
I left that congregation for a Calvary Chapel, they had coffee in the "worship" space.
Now I am Orthodox and the only thing I will bring into the Nave is water for after Communion.
Thanks for the shoutout & solid response as well!
It'd be awesome to get this in front of Piper himself.
A number of students in Piper's seminary have been gravitating toward EO and RCC for reasons like these. Admin tries to handle it quietly for fear of the donors, but it's caused no small scandal among faculty and administration. When told about one seminary student who was becoming a catechumen, I'm told that Piper shrugged and said, "Well, there are worse things to become." 😁Of course, said student was still kicked out of the school.
I felt this to my core - a protestant in chaos ...... The Lord is breaking my heart.
@@goaway7163 it's a beautiful deconstruction if you can persevere to the end of the journey, I promise 🙏☦️
@@bottomoftherabbithole thank you. I plan too, God willing. After being in the protestant church for 15 years I remember noticing when coffee in church service began. Just this past year I felt so angry watching a guy sip coffee while we were singing! It was terrible. I know I shouldn't judge, I know I should pray. I cannot go to a protestant church anymore. I know the Lord is pressing Orthodoxy on my heart. He is also softening my husband's heart towards Orthodoxy. My husband has felt disconnected from the protestant way for many years. Please, if you see this, pray for us, Jon and Chrissy, that God will bring us into his Church. That he will help us trust Him in this season of change.
Great video and I’m glad to hear it took your wife some time…I am gonna be honest, I didn’t feel much other than being confused and uncomfortable at my first liturgy. I’ve decided to print out what the send in their newsletter so I can follow along. Hoping that will help!
The Protestants today, they're doing virtual reality baptisms in headsets. They call it just as authentic because it's "just a symbol."
That is sad. I debated a Protestant fairly recently who called Baptism something like a wedding ring; A sentimental symbol of an internal reality already effected by faith. No grace, just a public confession of faith in God(if one even believes in the Trinity), and getting wet.
The more radical reformers are completely out of control.
lol 😂 I have heard of pastors giving service vittually you are right
as an orthodox inquirer tryna convince my parents of orthodoxy, I absolutely love your content. Glory to our great God and Savior Jesus Christ!!
I’m an inquirer of Orthodoxy and your discussion on the Eucharist just blew my mind. People die from taking the body and blood of Christ in an unworthy manner (even our pastors say that all the time before partaking the elements) and yet we (Protestants) deem it merely as a symbol? The blatant inconsistency! 🤯
Christ is in our midst!
This, and all of your videos are so wonderful, thank you for them.
господи помилуи ☦️
I work 2nd shift, so occasionally when I attend morning services during the week, I bring my lunch with me to church, but I enter through the back door and put the food in our refrigerator in the reception/dining hall. Even just to transport food that I'm not eating through the nave sounds inappropriate.
At my first liturgy (the midnight Paschal liturgy) I cried multiple times, and it seems to be a 50/50 chance of me crying whenever I enter our parish.
Nice video, subbed. Please make more videos on RUclips. We need more Orthodox content on here! ☦️
Glory to God! So happy you found it worthy of your time. ....and Lord willing 🙏☦️
Excellent video. You should follow up with a video on how to attend an orthodox liturgy (ROCOR for example), and what to do during the service.
Keep up the great work!
I've attended liturgy 3 times, here's what you should do: stand up and pay attention!
My first time I sat down and the priest asked me if I had some physical disability 😂
Nobody will force you to do anything, just make sure to stand up in respect for Christ.
I didn't do the sign of the cross because I don't fully understand the traditions, and nobody complained...
Pick a Yiaya or Babushka, stand when she stands, sit when she sits.
Get humbled when your knees hurt.
As a Protestant, I love my Orthodox brothers and sisters, and I would love to listen to preaching from Orthodox Priests, I think Orthodox opinions are important in Christianity. But this is how we move forward along the way of modern science and keep updated ideas. I am open to this kind of new form.
That one tweet reply made me laugh. "Don't make people choose between coffee and church, church is not going to win". Bro we're not even supposed to drink water on Sunday morning before the Eucharist, it can be done
Shows us who is their true god
If choir members can sing for the better part of 2-3 hours without water every Sunday, then they'll be just fine giving up coffee for a couple hours during their sermon
I love tue way you explained these things!! Very meticulous and refreshing!! Glad I found you brother!
Hard to argue about preparation for the Lord's Supper. Point taken.
I can attest to what you are saying. It was a real struggle to to try to establish a reverent atmosphere in my former non-denominational church (I was the director of worship). Even though I am a musician with a pop/rock background, I could never go back to the casual “worship” service that had a church band, was sermon-centered, technology dependent and was completely independent of any other “church”. The fact that I could go to any Orthodox Church and have common prayers, songs, Eucharist, etc even if in different languages, is so powerful and unifying. As a catechumen I look forward to baptism and being able to partake of the Lord’s body and blood for me healing and communion with Him. Thanks!
Hope your family is doing well. I’m reminded of your giant newborn as I watched this video.
What Reader Paul says at 20:52 is absolutely true. I converted at Pascha last year after 28yrs of being a Reformed Presbyterian, and I will never set foot in a protestant church again for Sabbath worship.
Brother, I'm gonna have to do a reaction video to your glorious beard.
Well ordered thoughts, brother.
Gospodi pomiluj ☦️
Coffee is 90% why people still go to Protestant churches
And free bread!
I am guilty of having attended a particular Assembly of God(a looong time ago) and enjoying coffee in the sanctuary during the sermon; It certainly was not prohibited there.
And the pastors know and joke about it
Straw man
Liking the new hair ☦️✝️👍
Im really enjoying these videos. Keep them coming
Great talk brother Paul 🙏🏻 ☦️ Thanks!
In our reformed baptist congregation it is strictly forbidden to bring beverages or food to the service in the worship area. We have a separate area for that before and/or after service. Nobody has ever contested this rule and I'm happy for that. When we go to service is to worship and glorify God, nothing less, nothing more, everything else is distracting.
I was mainly Methodist then Catholic then lapsed Catholic. I am intrigued. 😮
Paul, your so awesome thanks for the video
I am a traditional Latin rite Roman. I send a huge AMEN to you Father. Liturgy is the work of and toward God.
Sadly an emotional 'high' is utmost in these churches.
Glory to God! Also, just an FYI I am only ordained to the rank of Reader :)
I have a ton of respect for traditional Catholics, there is so much we agree on! Though I obviously have a deep longing for then to enjoin themselves to what I firmly believe to be the true Church of Christ and embrace the Holy Orthodox faith. With that said, there are two other videos I've done that you may find extremely useful in analyzing the gravity of some of the issues that divide us. With share here, for whatever it's worth!
Appreciate you taking the time to comment, brother. May our Lord continue to bless and guide you!🙏☦️
ruclips.net/video/a7fSsruQGWM/видео.htmlsi=d5cA2z0SHCe2d8n-
ruclips.net/user/liveMqIpUmZrV8M?si=pHl6qMTKxn9ln_Ew
You don't have it in Catholicism either, come back to Orthodoxy!
This was good, man. I even chuckled a few times as well. Looking forward to more videos, man
Thank you for an edifying video! Glory to God! 🙏❤☦ May I ask a question? You mentioned gluttony, and I struggle with that more than anything else in my daily life. You mentioned the church fathers and what they say about gluttony. Would you care to elaborate or recommend places where I can learn more? Thank you and God bless you 😊🙏☦
Yes, please! I would like to change that in my life too
That would be interesting and beneficial, indeed... But if I can guess, the church fathers likely suggest fasting and praying as a cure for gluttony (and it likely works when properly practiced)
For a remedy more specific to your situation, it’s beneficial to consult your spiritual father (usually your parish priest) who has walked before you in the faith. ❤️☦️
Wow! Beautifully spoken!
I think the confusion comes in, becomes a typical protestant service isn't worship. Sure they have about 10 or so minutes of worship songs in the beginning. But the bulk of the service is a lecture service.
And can I drink coffee while in class? Attending a talk? Listening to a speech, or a lecture? Sure, absolutely.
And therein lies the problem, they have equated lectures with worship. And when you try and fit the boundaries of the latter onto the former, it feels foreign and oppressive. Because in some ways it is. Lectures, talks, speeches, etc, these are naturally more informal than worship. So having your coffee, and something to do with your hands while listening isn't that egregious, but it would be during an act of worship and devotion.
What should i do? My soul is tired and anxious, I was saved from Drug Addiction and currently attend Protestant church but something has never felt right. I try and I pray.....
What I cannot understand is why would anyone drink coffee in the church (during the divine liturgy, or vigil, or vesper) instead of drinking it with other parishioners and priests in the church hall *_after_* the divine liturgy...
Piper is not Orthodox, and his was a question, i think, floated to Protestants, generally.
By their reaction you would think it was an Orthodox priest was asking the women to please veil in Church.
Just shows how irreverant megachurchianity has become, absolutely rediculous.
The race to the bottom of irreverence started by zwingli and calvin knows no end.
Dude I just discovered you, you're great. A hug from Chile ❤
Thank you for this
In Staint John Chysostom's Liturgy, there is the line, "All Catecumens depart, let no Catecumens remain!" At one service I was at, a Catecumen then said, "Do I have to go now?" There was a discussion about this line afterwards!
The Orthodox churches I have visited (serbian and antiochian) have this line in their liturgy but nobody really has to leave. It's usually not practiced anymore.
@@Martin-hd2tr I have never heard it said at a Greek Orthodox Church, I don't know about Russian Orthodox Church. I have attended liturgies in Moscow but I cannot understand church slavonic!
@@annyer262 okay honestly i don't know about the antiochian one, because i speak 0 arabic, but the serbs do have it in their liturgic text
I know that most churches no longer do, but at our parish (Antiochian) the deacon summons the 15-20 catechumens, the priest chants the litany of catechumens and we, the chanters answer in a somber "lord have mercy/to thee oh lord" - he blesses them and they are dismissed to catechism class before the deacon declares "the doors, the doors!" And the doors are literally closed to the narthex before the creed is recited and the gifts are consecrated. This happens for 9 months to a year for all of them.
I had an eager young man who was inquiring, who had just become a catechumen ask me why we did this. I said "because in this arena, the demons would love nothing more than for us to hand you a black belt on your first day of training."
I grew up Protestant. When I started my journey in Orthodoxy, I didn’t understand why no one had coffee while sitting in church. I thought it was odd. So glad I didn’t bring mine in the first time I visited. 😂 and 😢
In most orthodox churches there's plenty coffee after the liturgy. 😅 Can't wait for an hour during the most holy event of the week? I love coffee as much as anyone, but i don't get it 😂
@@Martin-hd2tr totally different world for me, and I love it! Will never go back!
"Wingin' it" is protestantism. Lord, save me.
Is it just a trend in the west to have a lack of reverence in church? Or is it happening in Churches in the east too? The lack of reverence (among other things) is driving me to seek the Orthodox Church but not much available in the US where I live.
What state do you live in?
Lord, bless!
Yes, where are you generally located? I'd be happy to help if possible
@@MrWesford Sorry for the delay, VA (South East)
@@bottomoftherabbithole I am in Suffolk, VA. I have seen through web searches some Orthodox churches listed but they are all about an hour or more away. I have not visited any of them yet. I am not sure who is legit or what. Sadly, the nondenominational contemporary churches (I suppose formerly Baptist churches?) worship with loud band music (rock style band: Electric guitar, drums etc.) and have tossed out hymns or changed them from anything that I would think would be acceptable to our creator. Those kinds of churches are in close proximity, all over the place.
I grew up in a Dutch Calvinist tradition with high church liturgical vestment before become a Byzantine Catholic. But in modern times many Calvinist friends I have permitted people to bring their donuts and coffee into their Sunday service. I think what John Piper discussed was this modern practice among Evangelicals bringing their meals into worship. Mormons don't have coffee hour after worship because they can't drink caffeine.
This is everything in a nutshell. The whole kit and kaboodle.
Excellent video!!
8:44 I’m laughing 😂 we Protestants need help.
Seriously though, we need a humility and reality check.
Come home my sister 🙏☦️ also please do check this other presentation, it should really help hammer the issues home that are touched upon in this video.
ruclips.net/video/LyBheYcxkso/видео.htmlsi=ZHDxqOREnh7xmN_R
@@bottomoftherabbitholethank you ✝️
Western Scholaticism as gone from how many angels can stand on the head of a pin to Transub to Consub, to ,sacrementalism to when to drink coffee.
I knew you ‘d go there!
I was at a christening recently and the other side of the family were not orthodox. While they were waiting outside for liturgy to finish, they had drinks. When the church was free and they came in, some had their glass of wine and others had cans of soft drinks. I politely told them they could not bring those into the church. One responded with “So what do I do with it?” I told her she’d have to put it outside. There is not food and drink allowed in this church.
It’s not a cafe or restaurant - it’s a church. Why do people think it’s acceptable to eat and drink in there?
As a protestant, I have no objection to how orthodox christians want to worship. I am 63 years old, and I have been to many different churches in my life, including Baptist, Uniting, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Pentecostal. I have never seen anyone ever drink coffee in a church service.
Orthodox don't worship "how we want". We worship according to the heavenly type as shown to Saints Moses and John.
like J.P. Said, The Orthodox worship God how he is supposed to be worshiped. All other types are incorrect and flawed forms.
Have you try to understand the orthodoxy church ?? it’s always great to understand
I believe this is true worship:
Isaiah 1:17 (NIV): "Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow."
Oh then I guess pious Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and pagans truly worship God as well if that's all there is to it! Protestants only push these absurdly reductionist takes polemicize Orthodoxy even though the takes themselves make absolutely no sense when taken to their necessary conclusions. You guys are literally willing to refute Christianity to defend your Protestant paradigm (whether you realize what youre actuakky doing or not). Lord have mercy!
Being a Protestant is awful. I wish I had had better guidance 8 years ago.
@@way2tehdawn all in God's timing🙏☦️
Coffee (which is being sold in the lobby…. sound familiar?…..Money changers, overturned tables? ) is inappropriate in the sanctuary, but then again almost the whole service is a nice show, not a place to “worship” (Christian music concert of self aggrandizement and emotionally lifting up one’s own ego via Bethal music from a heretical church) Religating communion to a wicker bowl sitting on a piece of furniture in the back of the sanctuary. Finishing with a pastoral fuzzy good feeling message about following Jesus, by inviting others to see their show and hear the fuzzy good feeling message. Get this, I’m a Protestant. 🤓 but… I a reckon, I won’t be for much longer.
Nice!
We have a "Hospitality room". Besides the sanctuary. Come early, eat and drink fellowship. Clock hits 10 we go into the sanctuary to sing a few songs then receive our tecahings. Afterwords theres an alter call and you can pray together, fellowship, and go eat and drink more. No water allowed in the sanctuary and most certainly not coffee.
Lord wants me to go Orthodox. I receive the teachings as I can online and honor and worship him at home with personal liturgical prayers that are proper for home use. I absolutely am in dire need of a Spiritual Father 🙏 ❤️ I pray anywhere from 1hoir to 8hours per day, prayer is not a problem for me. I am in need of building piety, honorable virtue in Spiritual Authority, my soul aches and longs for spiritual discipline, guidance and direction from one that I may humbly submit myself to. I have no means for transportation except a scooter and have two babies, stay at home mother. I would absolutely love to find one who would meet me over a zoom meeting perhaps. Please pray that my soul is lead to the proper shepard for my soul👣🙌🔥👑🩸✝️🛐🗝️
There's no food before the Divine liturgy
The biggest point is, for now. What happens 50 years from now? Will your church be the same under new younger elders?
@@sovereigngrace972350 years is being very generous. OP’s church will likely be very liberal within the next 5-10 years.
@@YahuahsRefiner
May the Lord bless your struggle to enter the Church!
Very good video keep making orthodox content brother
Honestly I'm not sure that what they do is even worship... So I think coffee is fine? When I go to a rock concert I also usually bring a drink. I love some of my protestant brothers and sisters, I used to be one. They think they're doing it right. Unfortunately the cup they keep drinking from is empty.
As a former Protestant -- is it about coffee _in_ Church, _during_ the service?
On Lutheran Sundays typically there was a service (no real Holy Mass, though) in Church, and then afterwards coffee in the parish house ...
I think the answer is yes.
So do I.
I wrote the comment before getting to certain details in the video.
Then I recalled that some non-conformist "churches" have _much_ longer sermons, and I suddenly could relate to why some would want Java.
💯🔥🙏🏻
I agree with everything. What is still hard for me are the prayers to the theotokos, tho i understand she only interceeds for us, some of the hymns seem to give her too much glory, such as is appropriate to God alone. Also, icon veneration (not talking about the presence of icons, which is real) was shunned by many church fathers. Any responses?
A very comprehensive video by David Erhan on icon veneration:
ruclips.net/video/jdwr7jGUNw0/видео.htmlsi=eSDT4hepWq-Fqat_
The veneration of Icons being shunned by many Church Fathers is overblown. Also, the Theotokos is the greatest of all God’s creation, and her righteousness surpasses all of ours. She deserves more respect than we can even begin to give her.
@@bradleyperry1735 makes sense. Im converting to orthodoxy for sure, its just that i have some protestant ideas deeply imbeded in me
Craig Truglia, David Erhan, and Seraphim Hamilton did good videos on icon veneration.
Gonna just be direct here
Doesn't matter what you think or feel regarding the Theotokos or icon veneration
The councils and patristic consensus completely override the tiny minority of those against it, and validates iconography and veneration of saints and Mary
Just look up videos on why Orthodox venerate saints and the Theotokos
when you gonna put up your audio files as podcasts? would love to listen to y'all on a regular basis.
You are the second person to suggest podcasting to me this week! I've never really gotten into them so I wouldn't really know where to begin as far as how to create one
This debate is not park of an Orthodox Christian’s “Phronema”. ❤ Reader John. Coffee in church etc…=🤢🤮🤯
Hark!☦️
Former Prot here.
Prots eternally btfo'd.
I have a genuine question. I just converted to Catholicism at Easter from being a Protestant my whole life. I’m still confused why there is a large disdain for instruments outside of the human voice during worship in both EO and RCC. In the OT, David used tambourines and stringed instruments. Would this be considered appropriate outside of a formal mass or something? I guess I’m asking why there is such a large gap in cherishing instruments in worship without just being a “well prots do this too much”
Even in OT temple worship, musical instruments of the temple orchestra were only ever allowed in the courts outside the temple. There's a time and a place for everything.
Concert plus Lecture may be
Praise and Prayer, but it is not Worship.
Greet you in the name of the FATHER, and of the SON, and of the HOLY SPIRIT, may his grace be with you. I'm new in the channel and I wanted to ask is it better for me to not go to church than to go to a Branham church since I am very far from the Orthodox church?
I mean no offense, but if you mean by a Branham church "the Message believers", followers of William Branham, I would truly say that it is better to not to go to church at all if a Branham church was the only option. Branham is considered to be a false prophet and he taught things that are considered to be heresies in the light of Orthodoxy (and by other Christian denominations as well)...
But I recommend you to contact with an Orthodox parish priest closest to you and ask what to do in this case. If he say you can still go to that church, then so be it. But likely you can also follow liturgies and vespers through live-streams and partake in prayers that way.
I'm in the same situation. Trust in Christ and keep seeking him. He'll find a way.
May the Lord grant you His loving and nerciful assistance in these matters.
I think it’s the general ‘falling away’ or apostasy.
I have a deacon-friend that thinks it’s ok to have a coffee in the temple (not during liturgy) but still- it’s NOT okay.
This same person also thinks it’s ok for people to come into the church and venerate the icons with their pets/dogs etc. And it’s not a dog for visually impaired either, it’s a full on pitt bull on a leash. God made all the animals, so this person thinks all living creatures should waltz in as if they’re St Gerasim’s Lion?!
We have to know our faith, and the difference between right and wrong, study the Word of God and don’t think that just because someone is a priest- deacon-chanter…. that they have carte blanche.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us.
Pastor Randy Bawlz has been real quiet since this tweet went viral 😮
I am I wrong on this; Jesus stated he is the Truth, the Light and the Way. Not a Pastor, not a Bishop, not a historical perspective. I do not like laser shows in the service either. The Holy Spirit convicts us of need to repent and Christ's death on the cross assures me my debt is paid if I confess my sins. Am I wrong? Sincerely, I am not being argumentative, Christ was a Jew, who came to save us from pious leaders who became fixated on processes/practices that did not translate to a spirit filled relationship. What am I missing? I agree with much of what you say, and am interested in your response if you may or have to time to share your responses to my thoughts. Thank You and God Bless You!
Ok, you are right about the complete lack of knowledge with regard to proper worship. But there might be another issue creeping in. Gnostics hate coffee and alcohol because it interferes with their sorcery pharmaceuticals. Mormons and psychology fanatics HATE coffee. Their distain for alcohol is a deception designed to throw out the Eucharist. They pushed us young gnostics to judge pregnant mothers who took the Eucharist, saying it affected the fetus!! I wrote a gnostic research paper on this in college 20 years ago. Horrible judging. Now I see them pushing nonalcoholic mushroom wine! It’s possible that he could be leading them away from traditional Christian staples like coffee and toward psychiatric drugs, which is a different religion altogether.
⚡️⚡️👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I agree with the deeper sentiment that John Piper and his ilk tend to lean into social media bickering culture about such inconsequential things. I understand it, and used to do it very much myself.
However, when it comes to the Orthodox church, and videos like this comparing it to other protestant religious, I am always amused and perplexed by you guys: I grew up in the Presbyterian Church (the conservative branch, the PCA) and they would adamantly say the exact same things as you about how true they are true to the book of Acts. They would say that you guys are not being as true as they are to the true original church. They would site other passages justifying their bickering over coffee and other matters.
Opinions, ideas, judgments, etc are fine, as long as we keep the secondary to the primary purpose of life: to love each other as Christ has loved us. To hold loosely to the things of this world and bask in the riches of his grace and the fruit of his spirit, be still and humble before the eternal, unchanging God who is love.
Not on the road to Orthodoxy yet?
@@nicodemuseam I entertained Orthodoxy because of its embracement of watchful prayer and other quiet meditative practices that modern evangelicalism has long dismissed. However, I find that I lean "liberal" when it comes to actual institutionalized church functionality: I tend to be more suspicious of external systems and institutions than enthusiastic. But I'm still growing and learning! So we shall see.
@@jeredmckenna
I hope your walk with Jesus continues well!
W a i t ... some sermons are not really made for services.
There was a sermon St. Paul held for converting people, and it occasioned his having to work a miracle.
A miracle which might have been superfluous if the boy had:
a) not sat in the window
OR b) had a large coffee.
I kind of get a feeling Piper and other reformed people may be taking those sermon lengths _into_ services.
Catholic sermon length : 10 -- 15 minutes.
Lutheran sermon length, perhaps 20 -- 30.
Piper's?
A sermon based service isn't a liturgy anyway .... is that too mean?
How do we modern mortals differentiate and prioritize "divinely-inspired" practices of worshipping the Holy Trinity from the "traditions of men"?
As the Orthodox hold the Divine Liturgy to be the "gold standard" that has been passed down in the Church since the time of the Apostles, the closer and more reverent a service is compared to the Divine Liturgy, the better off it is.
I would note that the New Testament doesnt offer an outline for a specific service or services in the Church.
The majority of our Liturgical practices are either quotes directly from the Scriptures, various doxologies to the Holy Trinity, prayers for intercession from various Saints and so on... In a nutshell, the Divine Liturgy and the other services contain the Theology of the Church.
If you went to every service in an Orthodox monastery for a year(they do morning and evening services every day, and probably a few in between), you would get one heck of a catechism.
Oh man. Voddie, John, and Washer? Did you even go back to RC Spruell?
Methodist Christian here. No band, instead a pipe organ and hymnal. Listening to this video, i feel gut punched. So tell us...do Protestants go to heaven? Fair question. Sounds like you're saying we're not.
Mark 16, 16 spells out requirements for salvation. Valid sacraments do not exist outside of the EOC (read story in Acts about Simon wanting to buy Gift and take it outside of the Church and how it ended). That is what we believe.
Look at the girth on that beard!
Oof
I do think their is a lack or reaction/response content from Orthodox perspective
What if somebody in your service had a word of knowledge, how do they express that?
Offer your bodies as living sacrifices. This is your spiritual act of worship.worship is lifestyle. Do you think the gifts of the Spirit only operate in certain buildings?
@@ariversideview5775 No, but we prohibit them in certain buildings.
Genuine comment. I find it funny the Bible is so expansive, that literally any subject or question can be answered if you bend it to translate to whatever you’re looking for. Drinking coffee in church? Hilarious. You can let the Bible make you hateful if you allow it.
Is there a sanctuary in the Protestant Church??? I don't think so
In words only. It is a lecture hall with a band.
Sanctuaries that are not sanctified, altar calls without an altar, it's very confusing isn't it?
In the bible we see many different instruments used for worship. I don't know where not using instruments as indicated in the hypothetical situation is based upon. This, however, seems to form a lot of the criticism. So, please, keep biblical and refer to that, instead of using your own ideas which may be formed over the centuries, but cannot be traced back. Bless you.
The Levitical choir and orchestra performed for YHWH *outside the building*, in the courts. Inside the temple, there were only singers. We are the continuation of true Old Testament worship.
But you are not in the temple. Even in those times we had the temple and the synagoges... Wouldn't want to see the place you are gathering as the temple?
@@marioouwens7945 forgive me, I'm genuinely not following
oi 'oo's John Piper?
All these Nickelback Jesus churches are like Christianity Light - guaranteed 50% less faith and mystery or get your tithe back.
Excellent video