Precision Rifle Scope Mounting & Leveling
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 мар 2018
- This video demonstrates my simple scope mounting procedure, including how I set up a scope level. The scope used in the demo is a Bushnell Elite Tactical XRS II, which I'll be reviewing while using it on my new PRS competition rifle. The scope level is the tube-mounted Accuracy 1st ceramic ball level.
For more information on the Accuracy 1st ACD, check out these reviews:
panhandleprecision.com/accurac...
• Accuracy 1st Scope Lev... 
Спорт
Quick hint from my surveying background. When you check a level of something with a bubble or angle finder, flip it 180 degrees and see if it agrees both ways. If it doesn't, you have error in your bubble, and will need to halve the error. I use a suunto clinometer to do my scopes.
I use a starrett 98 level.
Bubble errors are the worst
Exactly! There's almost zero chance that little bar thing is spot on. There's another video where the guy shines a light backward through the scope exposing the vertical line to a plum line on a wall. I haven't tried it yet but it seems to me that it's a way better method. As long as the scope and the scope level are tight, the relationship between the scope and the rifle isn't so important.
I'd like to make a suggestion, set up your rifle in a gun vise, level the rifle by using a level on the top of the rifle where it's flat, set you scope base , place the scope in the rings, on a wall put a piece of paper with a vertical and horizontal line intersecting one another look through the scope and line up the reticles to the reticle on the wall, then set your rings. You'll figure out the rest as you go along. BTW... it's NEVER failed me. It's a drawn out process but it works perfect. And the best part is, you'll never have to worry about any imperfections in the outside of the scope, the turrets, or anything else. It's full proof guys.
I've seen some use a string with a weight on the end and they try to line the elevation subtension line up with it against a wall
Sam, u have a great way of explaining things, so glad I came across your channel.
This video was very well done. Clear, concise, informative. Plenty of common sense. Thanks for making this video.
Just use a plumb line hanging off a wall or tree. Match the scope's vertical reticle with the plumb line after ensuring the action is absolutely level. I used to have endless problems letting gunsmiths mount my scopes because they wouldn't take the time to do it properly, since most of it is just grunt labor. But I've never had a problem in 20 years since I started doing it myself. I use Uncle Mike's Guntite which is similar to Loctite 242, however, only Guntite is designed for a lubricant environment. But blue Loctite 243 is slightly stronger than 242, and it is designed to function around lubricants. Gunwriter Layne Simpson uses Loctite 222 which is designed for small scope mounting screws, whereas Guntite, Loctite 242 & 243 are designed for larger action screws. However, Larry Pottterfield (the owner of Midway) mounts the 6-48 screws on his bases with Loctite 242, in Midway's scope mounting videos. Although Guntite is labelled for 1/4" to 3/4" action size screws, it seems to work just fine on the smaller 6-48 & 8-40 scope mounting screws.
just because a person call themselves a gun smith does not mean they can hang your 3k precision scope with a dam. seem today it garbage in garbage out workmanship. taken many rifle out to the plumb bob to check the cross hair vertical and way off.
Thank you, I truly enjoyed watching and listening to you explain all of this. I do not shoot any type of competition, but I like getting things correct, or as close as I can. Aim small, miss small!
that is an excellent tip about leveling the scope off the bottom, thanks!
Thanks loads for this info on leveling off the bottom of the scope adjustment housing. I have heard of this many years ago, but never thought too much about it due to using low rings which did not give much space between the base and the receiver bottom. I recently purchased a CZ .22LR Mod. 457 match rifle, and installed a Nikon Rimfire scope and installed a medium set of Leopold rings, and this method works just fine. Total success!
I just got my hands on a .300 Win Mag. I will be putting a scope on this rifle and I just LOVE the information you presented in this video! Simple straight forward instructions in an easy to understand way. WELL DONE!
Thanks, Sam. Appreciate the work you put in making the vids. Looking forward to more. 😎👍🏽
I use the Arisaka leveling system. Bought it from Amazon. Best and simplest leveling device I have found.
Great video. I install my scopes the same way. The piece of metal with the attach level is a fantastic idea.Thanks for showing that. When I finish installing the scope and everything is leveled, I line the elevation and windage reticles up with a piece of door molding or something permanent that is horizontal and vertical and make sure all reticles are as plum as possible. Again thanks.
Haven't had a chance to test if it holds zero, but mounts just fine and has nice clear glass. Centered vertically true to a plumb line with the crosshairs which is always a plus!It's a great ruclips.net/user/postUgkxc4K63Fd5LglDMObu7-Bgapxp_ef0W8hE scope. There's no parallax adjustment or focus ring, so may be limited to 3-7x, have to see how it is on the range. Also be aware that the rings are "look through" so you can still use irons, but they are really tall if you only intend to use the optics. On a 22LR no biggie since I'm not shooting competitions or worried about a hard cheek press. Will boresight and range test, if all goes well, I'll leave it at that!
Absolutely brilliant. Clear and concise, no nonsense. Very well done Sir 👍👍
Great information,however I will level my gun, drop a plumb Bob out in front 5 yards or so and plumb my scope to my plumb line and tighten up while checking plumb.
Thanks for all the great info you provide sparking my interest in the sport.
Very good. I like the level idea. Just went down and bought what I needed to make my own. Thanks Sam.
Excellent advise and explained so as to understand the complete user methods involved in scope mounting and adjustment. Thanks loads.
Excellent description. Thanks! You can use a rubber band or a foam ear plug (unused) to hold the level in place against the bottom flat of the scope while you adjust.
Check out the Arisaka leveling system. It uses the sliding method to butt up against the bottom of the scope were all the guts of the scope are. Very easy method and pretty much hands free.
I really appreciate your videos. Most of my shooting is 100-300 yards working on the feral hog problem in my area. I just ordered a Vortex scope to mount on my 30-06 and your video certainly presents some good information.
Your gonna love that vortex Wes. I have the gen 2 and it's awsome!
I’ve been mounting scopes on my rifles for let’s say a long time, first scope on a 22 and the next scope was one of the first Redfield Widefields, dad taught me the door jamb method, over the years I’ve mounted a lot if scopes using different methods to get the scope set square as possible.
This year I bought a Athlon Ares for my Ruger #1 300 Win Mag for hunting at long distance if need be. After watching your many instructive videos I just want to say thanks, your videos are direct and to the point, easy to follow and I’m remounting my Athlon scope.
Deer season is over for me, 5x5 Muley with my go to 243 Remington model 6.
Thanks again.
Wow! My first time to purchase and install a scope. I'm close to being overwhelmed with all the information available on the internet on this topic. Everything from lapping the rings and precise alignment as presented by Larry Potterfield to just bolt it on and go. I just picked up (new) a Remington 700 5R stainless in an M-S Precision stock. Starting point here, picatiny mount(s) on the receiver. Two or one piece, no decision yet made. I suspect I have a lot of learning to accomplish before laying out any cash. I was surprised to hear that a Bushnell scope rated so well with you. As mentioned, I have no experience with scopes but I do recall many decades ago the Bushnell binoculars were what you bought if you were very limited with funds. I now will look more closely at this scope. Appreciate you video, thanks, clear to understand and well put together.
By far the simplest and easiest to understand tutorial for this BY FAR
Thank you for this video Sam. I leveled the scope on all my three rifles yesterday after making a makeshift tool based on the idea you had there with the steel. Even my first gun which was fitted by a gunsmith back then was "way" off in terms of leveling.
So easy when someone explains it so well. Great video. Now I know how to mount and level a long range set up
Thoroughly appreciate this. I'm digging my rifles out now, whether they're correct or not I want to be double sure.
Awesome video. One piece of advice for an old Army Avionics guy, be sure to reset your torque wrenches to zero to keep from changing the calibration. We had to have EVERY torque wrench, driver, etc., calibrated every 6 months max, some needed calibrated every 3 months due to aviation critical use. I was also our Apache Battalion's calibration co-ordinator doing the actual calibrations on those and about 60% of depot level aviation equipment, you'd be amazed how some can get beaten to death and never change while others taken perfect care of change accuracy just sitting on the shelf.
Agreed. Overlooked details. I was told to dial back the torque to zero, then add just a touch for storage. I could be wrong but that’s what I’ve always done.
Not "to zero" but "to the LOWEST" value. This is important as you shouldn't feel the wrench winding to a stop, that would put stress on the system. I work on aircrafts as well, you'd be surprised how many of my colleagues get this wrong.
Nice video! Thanks for putting it together. One thing you might want to mention is the nead to have some space between the ring halfs. I'm sure you watch for this but some people may not think about it. I bore sight the same way as you described. It works great for me.
Never thought of leveling from the bottom of the scope! But after seeing it i 100% get it, great to know as i'd just been using the turrets to square off! Brilliant video all round!
I must've watched 20 different videos on "expert" scope installs. Most are backyard hacks that have no idea what they're doing. It is indeed refreshing to see someone do it the right way and explain why it's done the way it was done. Especially liked the end where you mention using a plumb line to verify correct tracking. Well done. Your videos are great.
To set the scope-level I use a bubble level to get the tube and rings close then take it to the range to use a plumb line to finish the job. It’s best if the wind us under 5mph. At the 50yd line I hang a plumb line with a 1.5 lb or 3 lb weight about 6 foot off the ground, with the weight suspended inside a cardboard box with 14” sides to keep the weight from being affected by any wind. Match the scope vertical line with the plumb line and tighten the screws on the rings. With the screws tighten and the vertical line matching the plumb line attach the scope-level to the tube in the position that gives the most accurate reading of the bubble. For my eyes I found that I can sometimes get better more repeatable results if the bubble is just touching the black line on the right side.
Kurt Hollanitsch the video shows him incorrectly installing it by not lapping the rings and to top it off has the wrong height of ring for his rifle because its touching the barrel! if anyone that does precision shooting knows anything is the scope must never touch or be so close to the barrel that the recoil of the rifle makes them touch, thats a good way of breaking things. do your research before commenting.
@@cotajesus90, your right you don't want the scope to contact the barrel and you do want to get the rings aligned. Look at 18 minutes into the video and you can see daylight under the scope also look at the video on the review of the Bushnell Elite and you can see the scope does not make contact. If you mount matched rings to a 1913 rail they will not require lapping. If you have the rods to check them it would be a good thing to do. If you find that their off call the ring manufacture and they will send you a new set. I think I would first take the rods to a precision machine shop to check the rods on a toolmakers flat just make sure you don't have problem with the rods.
exactly finally accurate info
I like the video. I have set up scopes on the past similarity. The small bubble level glued onto the flat aluminium is genius. I was wondering too, if the scope was touching the barrel. It looks very close. But I’m sure this guy knows better than that . Great and informative video. Cheers Brent
Appreciate you taking the time to demonstrate this for us beginers
I love these videos. I’ve really learned allot from you in the last while. Great how you don’t over complicate things, like so many other channels I’ve seen. Keep it up!
Thanks for the instruction. It's always good to get different points of view on accomplishing this task.
Glad to see that mounting right next to the turret housing is not anything to worry about. I had to do the same thing to get the proper eye relief on my recent build and was a little bothered by it.
I made the leveling tool. Works great. Thanks for sharing.
I like using the same level for the rifle and optic. Just like you did. Rules out an error if the levels don’t match. Great video man. I’m definitely enjoying your channel.
I use a plum line and shine a flash light threw the scope and line up the retical with the plum, If i had a level like the one on the vid I would do it that way also, love the vids and keep them coming, I look forward to seeing them
I shine a light through the scope...rarely threw it
@@jameshoyt75 I shine a flash light threw the scope all the time
That will get your scope vertical, but how do you get your rifle exactly vertical? Just get the scope leveling kit genius!
@@johnwagnon9632 rifle doesn't necessarily need to be perfectly level if your scope is leveled to the fall of gravity. Plenty of people purposefully cant their rifle.
@@johnwagnon9632 Unless you regularly shoot off the weak hand, there's absolutely no reason to level the rifle: set the rifle so it's in the most stable position for you and then level your scope to that.
Sam very nice job,fanks to you, all very simple and clearly! 👍
Had a look these last febuary Sam fantastic scopes for sure. Glass is up there with the Gen II razor, ATACR, etc. The DMR II Pro is sure to shake things up as it's the DMR II with ED glass just like the XRS II will be interesting to see if they keep it at $1599. I recently picked up a Mark 5HD and am thoroughly impressed by Leupold thus far. Glass is extremely nice.
I hope you do a second video i'd like to see how you set everything up to do the tracking test and plumline.
As someone who runs a nightforce NXS and constantly having trouble with the reticle being out. I think I now know why. You legend! Time to machine up a bar and glu a bubble level on it 🤙🏻
Excellent presentation, very easy to understand and I will use your methods to get my scope mounted/zero'd
Great video. I've used a level on the turret with the cap removed and it didn't occur to be that it might not be level. Most of the time I put the rifle in a clamp on my kitchen table and level the rifle. Then I put my 4 foot long level on my back fence 30 yards from the table and level the scope by aligning the vertical crosshair with the level. If I need to bore sight a rifle at the same time I tape a red/orange ball to the level.
I'm just getting into long-range shooting...the scope has been my biggest set back...not 'the' scope...operator with the scope. Set up....this has become a compound issue, now that my Daughter has shown great aptitude for rifle shooting (starting with comp. Air Rifle)
I see that I need to study a great deal more...Thank you for your tips and advice on tools... instant subscriber
Nice. Last step (for me) is to verify the reticle is plumb when the scope mounted level says it is. Hang plumb line on wall, shine flashlight through objective to check.
Very good series. Thankyou for sharing your experience and pragmatic approach.
Great video I use three levels but not that way but you can bet I will try this method because it makes a lot of sense to me. I am always looking for excellence and that as close as it comes you have helped me considerably thanks
Beagleman
Thanks for sharing that trick of of using the bottom flat part of the scope. Never thought of that.
I agree with you on the ring spacing, I have seen some scopes with picatinny rails where they mounted the scope with both rings almost all the way against the turrets, which I don’t think anyone should do if they can help it.
The flat magnet with the level is a great idea! Great video. Thanks.
Outstanding video. Thank you.
Loving this channel. Subscribed!
I'm going to move to see if it works out forward. I've seen others placed the rear area. Thank you.
That is one of the most sensible precision scope mounting procedures I've ever seen. Maybe I feel that way because it's almost exactly what I do 😂. I don't overthink it, I buy quality hardware like you do and l I've never thought that I need to lap or bed my scope. Project a reticle image and compare it to a plumb line. I do it and I haven't had to make a change either.
Great video, made some stuff much clearer.
Your shop makes me jealous!
Great video boss. I use the Arisaka tool to level the scopes now. Works a treat.
SlimySquirrel yeah. That method that the arisaka and spuhr use is amazing. Quicker, easier, and more accurate than doing it with bubble levels and that whole deal.
Great video Sam, can you do a video some time explaining how to determine picking the correct tool size (hex vs star, imperial vs metric, etc ) I’ve wrecked the odd screw over the years by getting in wrong! My wife shakes her head when she finds me setting up a plumb line on the lounge wall, rifle on the dinner table, but hey it works a treat lol
Excellent tip going to the bottom of the scope make sense thanks for your video
Great video. I have the Fat Torque Screwdriver as well. You should not store it with tension on it though. Set it to zero in lbs before putting it back in case.
Several years ago some more experienced shooters than I recommended using a set of feeler gauges between the rail and the flat base on the bottom side of the optic. Just get feeler gauges the exact hight between the rail and optic and make sure it doesn't rock side to side. Seems to work really well and really fast.
That is how a competition shooter taught me to level.
I never thought of the turret cap being off. I just drove myself to drink setting up a Leupold. I leveled it to the receiver and then after torqueing it down I noticed the reticle was off. I finally set up a 4' level. Leveled the rifle and set the crosshair to the 4' level.
brettinnj that's why spuhr mounts exist. Its fast, easy, and perfectly level.
Nice!
You can also buy a separate leveling wedge from spuhr or arisaka. They don't work for every scope, due to larger turrets on some scopes, but it makes things so much easier.
I really like your choice in Cartridge. To date I have 3 Firearms in the 260 Remington Cartridge and it is my favorite one to use. One Browning A-Bolt Hunter .260 Rem. One Browning A-Blot Stainless Stalker .260 Rem. One personally built AR-10 .260 Rem 24" Wilson Combat SS Fluted. Now that one is a tack driver and when I take it to the range everyone wants to play with it. Lol. I absolutely love shooting the .260 Rem. as it has enough power to even take down the Elk we have here in Washington State and yet I can load it down for just about any Varmint I want to shoot. Looking at building yet another AR-10 in .260 Rem for a spare and just because I like it. In our family we have quite a few Browning A-Bolt Hunters in the .260 Rem. and they have always been such a joy to shoot. My youngest son took his first White Tail @ 200 yards with his A-Blot Hunter .260 Rem. I'd love to hear about how your .260 shoots and what you reload for it. Our favorite has always been ANYTHING Hornady, they are the best I've used and I've been shooting for 50 years. Anyway, good video and keep up the good work.
Looking good. Just mounted mine yesterday and using the MOAR reticle it just kept playing tricks on my eyes. leveled her up and looked at a plumb bob at 75yds(only distance i had). It looks true, guess we will find out.
Great explanation and demo.
Used Badger rings in the past and liked them but went with a sphur mount on my first big precious rifle build...sphur is probably the only thing I'll use now...spendy but worth it I think. They use a wedge to index off the bottom of them turret housing like you showed. Fast and simplest way to mount a scope ever Period.
Great video and explanations ! Thank you ! Look fwd to more vids from you
10:45 I always knew the scope cap was a poor reference so I always preferred the plum line/reticle method: I'd never thought of using the bottom of the scope. Even if the reticle isn't square to the bottom of the turret housing (imagine it's so bad that looking through your scope you see an “x” instead of a “+”), it's vertical and horizontal tracking will never-the-less be square to the bottom of the housing, so if you find you need to come up .3 mil you can accurately bring the “x” up .3 mil. As always with your channel, I learned something!
But just wanting to make a small point. A minute amount of locktite is just a step of precaution. No harm, no foul if using blue removable. A vital step in my break barrel air rifles in my opinion. I really enjoyed your video and instruction.
That was The best informative video Amazing AmazingStep-by-step Of something I really needed to know Thank you
Really helpful....my first scope arrives tomorrow.
I'm also a huge fan of ARC M10 rings, the best rings I've ever used bar none....
Well, I have mounted scopes a few different ways and just watch a Special operations operator explain his method and I must say, I like your procedure much better, actually, the best.
Great video. Can you give us the dimensions of the “Level Stick” you had made? Handy tool. I promise we won’t make a big deal about you not using a NF scope.
Hello, thank you very much for this lesson.
Greetings from Poland
Great video. I have had a base come lose. And a friend had the ring screws come lose. For that reason, I use some form of adhesive on the screws. Can’t hurt and gives me that extra piece of mind. To each their own though.
Really Nice ! Great to see it done right! The only thing I would add is,set up a plumb bob/string and check your reticle in the scope for level. You would be surprised how many are off a degree or three. Ha Ha He even says it near the end! Nice job.
Very helpful video. Thank you
Good stuff here. I leveled my Vortex Viper PST gen 2 with the top turret. I'll go back and check it now. I need to figure out how to make one of those flat levels to get under the scope......hmmmmmmm Thanks!!
Great video man. Well explained and no extra B.S. I subbed👍🏼
Finally...someone else who truly boresights a rifle. Yeah, I've seen a lot of people WAAAAY over complicate this process with all sorts of gizmo's and such. Even a torque wrench is overkill to me but no harm. If you're mounting a scope on a HUNTING rifle where it may be banged around and see a lot of variation in temp in one day...use the loctite. Your loved and cared for match rifle doesn't really need it though.
Starrett makes sliding parallels and I find the right size that will fit between the top of the Pic rail and the underside of the turret body. Slide the two parallels until they make solid contact with pic rail and scope body. Tighten scope screws and recheck if necessary.
Well I mounted up a scope, use the top of the turret even tho I new better after watching this video, key word “I new better”, I was looking though the scope and I felt that I had the rifle level but the cross hairs seem to be off, got out levels and compared the top of the turret to the bottom of the scope and yep right there it is proof you were right and I new better then to do it the wrong way!!!
Thanks
Btw there are a lot of RUclips videos mounting scopes the WRONG way.
That was FREAKING AWESOME 👍 thank you.
ya. thats the same way i sight mine in, look through the bore and scope. usually you do it in 3 shots @ 100. good video
Depends on the ballistics of your round, but I prefer the double zero method (for 223 it's 50/200). Maybe it's lack of experience but checking my zero at the close range gives me confidence I'll be on paper further out.
Very nice and informative video. Good job Panhandle Precision !! Jeff D try looking up a Starrett 135 (2 .5 inch )or 135B ( 3.5 inch ) pocket bubble level or a machinists parallel ( most often come in sets or in matched pair) of appropriate size and you can build your own both are found on eBay. Let me know if this helps anyone.
I have always set the level on top of the turret and scratched my head when I got the gun out to shoot and the scope was definitely not level with the gun.... Had no idea the bottom of the scope was flat like that. Thanks
There is a new tool that mounts on the rail that has a elevator on it that you raise so it touches the bottom of the turret, it keeps the turret from turning as you tighten the ring screws.
Hey Sam, do you ever verify the vertical reticle on a plum line.? I’ve discovered a few scopes over the years weren’t 100% level once checked against the plum line. I have a permanent one mounted on my back deck now and check all the customers rifles against it.
Yes, when I don't have 18" of snow in the way.:-)
Don't you read what he said about using a plum line?
Vaughn Precision i
Excellent video... Thanks!
Thanks for such an incredibly well done video. Definitely helps take the apprehension out of self-mounting my scope. What bipod lock are you using here?
Rick Mottola Pod-Loc
Appreciate the video. Good stuff!
I have used the Wheeler Pro leveling system for quite some time BUT I use the top of the scope caps as my leveling location. Good to know that that is not the best place(even though wheeler suggests using the elevation cap)
Any idea if there is a place that sells a level such as the one like yours?
FYI...Nightforce said lapping their rings voids the warranty.
Will have to check back and see how the turret tracking repeatability holds up.
Sam,
Thanks so much for your content! I am learning a great deal. Would you mind offering your advice with regard to optics decision I am working through? As a relatively new hunter in AZ, I am considering investments in either the Vortex PST Gen II or the HST... here is where the questions start.
FFP v SFP as a primarily hunting optic? to me the ability to range with FFP reticle seems important as I dont necessarily want to buy/rely on LRF. However do you believe FFP primarily applies to competition/tactical shooting? Will SFP generally get the job done for most hunting situations? Further, if I find a Muley at 200yd, will the FFP limit accuracy/ranging due to reticle size on a 5-25?
Range - 5-25x50 v 4-16x44? not crazy about lower light with the 44m, but is the 5-25 necessary for most hunting? I am confident I can skill up to take long shots eventually, but as an intro optic is that much range necessary?
Quality - I can afford an expensive FFP illuminated optic, which im sure would be a lifelong investment (especially with vortex) but could I save a few hundred bucks and spend it on gear/Ammo, range time etc?
I know these are all somewhat circumstance based questions, but Im looking for advice from someone other than the guy at the gun counter (no digs on them)
Should I consider something like the strike eagle as an all around?
Thanks so much for your time/thoughts.
Wow that's crazy. Can't believe I have installing scopes incorrectly. I have been going off the turret screw and have been wondering why my scope looks canted. Now I know why. Where can I get one of those long levels? They should sell those!!
Good details for doing the job correctly.
That's it! I'm done shopping around; this will be my scope. Ruger precision rifle Gen 3 in 6.5 creedmoor. I'm searching for the tall target test video but can't seem to find it. Do you have the link?
love this video, only thing i have trouble with is that my rifle does not have a flat surface where i can put my leveler on. It's rounded from the back to end receiver included. It is a weihrauch hwj 60 .22 LR. Any help how to know if my rifle is straigt?
Love these videos 👍👍
Great Review !! I've been following your reloading techniques.... Very Good content.. Thanks for taking the time! I've learned a few ticks to work smarter not harder..
Another neat trick is once your gun is leveled ... Level your scope by aiming at a PLUMB LINE" like you said Turret Caps can't be trusted! Also shine flashlight backwards into your scope OBJ and will backlight reticle to level on Plumb line>>> My two cents Just another way for confirmation
Great video! Thanks!
Is the Redding bullet comparator worth the purchase?
Nice. That makes so much sense. I like it. Now how do we get one of those really nice tool steel levels?
Jeff
Sam, YOU need to start offering them for sale. It seems you have a lot of buyers waiting.
I am new to all of this and still in training before I get my 243 and scope. I have a question regarding sighting and please tell me if I get this right. When you steady the rifle and take your first shot then look down the scope and move the redical to get it centered on that hole you just made. The other way is to ascertain the shot hole distance from the bullseye say 1 inch down and 1 inch to the right, then adjust the turrent knobs up one inch and to the left one inch. Is this correct?