The Amazing Fantasy has a witnessed signature on back cover. That's why it got yellow label. It's just noted on label there was an additional writing on inside front cover.
Finally, a comic influencer who fearlessly exposes CGC for their blatant negligence throughout this scandal. While many other RUclips comic influencers handle CGC with kid gloves, you deserve recognition for holding them accountable for their role in the scandal. Kudos to you, sir!
I remember watching a video recently about a guy that cracked out a hulk 181 in order to press and clean for a better grade and found out the marvel value stamp was missing. They thought it was an honest mistake by CGC overlooking it because it was a blue label. Now, with all these issues coming to light, I’m not so sure…
Thanks for confirming. I knew I'd seen examples cracking like this in YT vids but was having trouble tracking down the uploads. That's the concern. If bad actors have been getting these past CGC for years, then presumably it's been even easier to get them past Joe Public too. I've got a couple of slabs I look at and think they're overgraded. (That said, they're only $150 books so I guess it's only a dedicated fraudster who would risk jail time for swapping out those).
@@jotcollectibles i asked swagglehaus about that book bry talked about. They said slab was an older label, so it was not part of this. So that book might have just been missed by cgc.
Your point about people only switching out big books is valid. However what's to stop people from switching out less important books in the future? Maybe I have a 9.0 slab worth $300 and I also have an 8.0 raw copy and I just feel like keeping my 9.0 so I replace my 8.0 into the slab and sell it as a 9.0 and keep my 9.0 for my pc.
SUBSCRIBED. 2024 is off to a pretty wild start with this whole CGC Fraud thing carrying over. You shed some NEW light with details that hopefully collectors are taking to heart especially the whole CGC Signature Series approval of the Stan Lee Auto.....yikes Have a Great 2024!!
So CGC proves they can't tell the difference between a 9.0 and a 9.8, even though that difference can mean thousands of dollars in loss or gain for the book's owner. When people send in their scammed books, will CGC reholder them upside down, grossly mis-graded, mis-titled and with the MVS missing? Even if CGC weren't knowing collaborators in this debacle, it still shows that they ignore major flaws and do not know how to grade comics.
They most likely just took the inner well and just shoved it to a new slab not even looking at the grade. the submitted slab is a CGC so why spend time regrading or even checking they already did it. this made this scam possible due to this flaw
@@mikeasher6723 You're probably right. I think the bare minimum they need to do now is re-grade every comic that is sent in for re-holdering. Just treat it like a brand new submission.
I agree with you on this! I think most of the blame needs to fall on CGC, yes they got scammed but they dropped the ball on this 100%. I wish more people would talk about this and put more heat on CGC.
I think the problem with more collectors holding CGC accountable is that they're too invested in CGC. They don't want to acknowledge how much CGC dropped the ball on this, because it will hurt their collections or business.
I’m not at all surprised I even stated to a business associate several months ago that CGC is going to have a class action lawsuit against them-well well well may Justice be served!!!
Thank you for not giving a sh@t about protecting your own interests. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your honest. This is bad, it’s massively bad. It’s not “statistically insignificant” as I’ve heard some folk saying. THANK YOU for your honesty on the subject. This IS a problem.
CGC likely knew about these issues and chose to take the grading/reholdering fees and looked the other way UNTIL they were recently forced to address this issue.
Love the rant! How in the world did CGC reholder hundreds and hundreds of books without checking them for restoration, MVS cut out, accurate grading, etc. Apparently they've just been mindlessly reholdering books for years now! Incompetent!!
Good video - You are one of the only dealers out there who truly "Gets" how bad this is. I think that many were (and are still) poo-pooing this - at first, with "Chill out dude!, We don't know if it's bad, and "oh, it's a tiny, tiny percent - don't worry about it, CGC is gonna fix this and until then, they're still reliable!". These dealers were bending over backwards making up reasons and assumptions and ignoring the facts of the situation to marginalize the scope of the problem. They wanted collectors to mentally "quarantine" the types and numbers of which CGC slabs that might be suspect. Now, most of that marginalizing (oh, it's only Mark Jewelers, it's only...) has been shown to have been wrong. I think that every high-value CGC Blue Label book should be suspect at this point. Now, it's certainly arguable as to what "high-value" is. Is it $250, or is it $2500? We do not know just how much money any particular scammer would need to get to justify them spending the time and effort to open a CGC case and slide in a lower grade or purple graded comic. I can tell you this... as little as $100 is more than enough money for someone who needs money, and who is of nature to steal, to motivate them to do whatever they need to, to steal. People who think that this "has to be" limited to $1000 books to make it worthwhile to a scammer are projecting onto all scammers their own sense of what would make it worthwhile to them.
Something that dovetails with your point about motivation to scam is, opportunity - the availability of comics suitable for use in this scam. If the scammer already owns, say, two issues of Amazing Spider-Man 135 that both present as about an 8.0 to casual inspection, but one has a clipped coupon inside, you can bet the scammer is going to think seriously about trying the slab-crack switcheroo with ASM 135 just because it’s convenient. Also, I would expect that aspiring slab switchers often do a few trial runs on lower-priced comics, moving up to the more valuable ones when they’ve got some experience and finesse.
Remember back in the day (a couple of years ago), when CGC were being swamped with submissions, and books were taking sometimes a year to get back to their owners because they couldn’t keep up with the demand? What if the scammer(s) were submitting these books during that time, hoping that CGC would not have the time to check re holders, because they were up against it? Never understood why CGC doesn’t have graders for each comic book eras. Have a number of graders for Golden Age, another number for Silver, Bronze etc. That way, collectors like myself, who are only interested in Silver Age (and some Bronze Age), would not have their books stuck in a line behind modern books (of which thousands more are submitted), and having to wait much longer to get their books back! Doing it this way may also allow graders more time to properly examine these books so they don’t miss any flaws and the collector ends up getting a grade that actually reflects the true condition of the book!
Because a) shouldn’t really fast track some people just because of the book they have (but still Paid like everyone else ). Like saying one collector more important than another B) grading is supposed to be universal . So silver and copper graded against the same standards . Good grader should be able to cope with all books . Makes them a better grader. Like a mechanic with experience on a variety of cars
Here is the biggest issue. How do you not question someone reholdering 500 books? I've been a cgc member for 6 or 7 years and had 2 books reholdered......
The trust is gone. I won’t be in a rush to use there services again. Also, won’t have the confidence buying anything CGC from eBay or anywhere else for that matter.
Apparently that signature series was signed on the back. The one inside already existed and was noted on the label. Totally agree about a new case being needed - maybe some way to link the inner well to the case. If not, a full re-grade would be required. Guessing he was not the only one doing this.
CGC is either totally in on this scam OR they are the most bumbling incompetent prats imaginable. Neither option encourages me to submit my books to them.
I got one of those ASM 194 in a 9.8, directly from the guy. Now that I take a closer look at it, it's like a 9.4 - 9.2. Now I am wondering do you think it'll become more valuable now as a Scammed book? This hobby tends to make weird stuff desirable.
That is an interesting take on the situation. The problem is that people would be encouraged to replicate the scam book in an attempt to increase the value of lower value books unless there was some way to have some complete list of original "scam" books.
You won't see me buying it, but I wouldn't doubt it if enough get reindexed through the process and there are only a few from this list with their fradulent registry number remaining (meaning their rarity goes up as people send them back in for review).
Well, I wont be touching a single book on THAT list. Every CGC copy is potentially tainted. And this is just ONE reholder scammer that they know about. Censorship is rife on the CGC boards. Not only are they mind-numbingly incompetent, they're nasty and petty too. They really despise RUclipsrs for some reason. I sincerely hope CGC goes bankrupt this year.
I won't touch any graded collectibles at all. I think this is hilarious, and I knew it would happen. Now it's time to watch it all crash and burn. I love it!!
Most of my comics signed in the 1990's were on the first page in pen, some writers were not comfortable signing the cover, spoiling the art and some interior artists only signed - their - work, which was inside, so I would believe an inside signature occurred in 1986.
Ok I have maybe an explanation to to the Stan Lee signature of 1986. I have an Amazing spiderman annual 15 signed by Stan Lee. It's not graded but I have two photos of him signing it. That was in 1984. Would that be sufficient for a cgc signature grade?
Yeah I'm with you. That's just over 200 reholdered 9.8s Absolutely shocking! And the AF15 was the first thing I flagged up on that list to my friends. But I never noticed the year! That's ridiculous
I feel like they are scrambling to save their business. How do they know how many books were compromised they weren't even aware of this scandal till a couple of weeks ago and now we are supposed to believe they have solved it and know exactly how many were messed up. It would not surprise me if thousands of books were fraudulent. I watched a youtuber heat gun a slab open just to show how it is done and if he can do it. You can bet that scammers have been doing it for a while and I am sure they don't plan on stopping.
I’m looking forward to watching Sound of Freedom but also with trepidation. Lol Another great video and a great service to the community. I’m sifting through the channels I subscribe to, there are some I’ve subbed to for years and am unsubscribing to given the off the charts shilling for cgc I’ve witnessed by them this past week. I get they are exposed to this investment risk, we all are to varying degrees but to say it’s “statistically insignificant” is totally disingenuous and I can’t watch those channels now. Thank you for being an honest voice.
The Cgc board of directors (if there is one) has no clue how much business they are losing day after day from regular collectors who might be considering have items slabbed, that WILL NOT!😮
I don't buy a lot of slabs so I really don't know, but isn't there some way to tell if a book has been reholdered or not? What I don't like about CGC is if they actually published the grader's notes for free at least the external damage could be easily checked. Every slab I have, I looked up grader's notes and most of them say absolutely nothing useful, or they are unavailable. I am so unimpressed with their service, I only buy slabs for less than case cost or at raw FMV only - I do not pay a premium for slabs.
What CGC should do is track down all those who may have been swindled. Regrade the book for its actual grade free of charge. Eliminate the serial number for the books affected or keep the serial number but make the notation. CGC should pay the difference in the value that was lost to the new owner. The individual(s) who were involved should be published like America's Most Wanted as a buyer beware and prosecuted and also be made to pay restitution.
This whole scandal confirms my long held belief: slabbing encourages people to look at the number not the book. Buy raw, folks. If you can’t hold the book in your hands before you buy it, buy from a trusted dealer with a return policy who provides good pictures and answers your questions. If you like how the books look in those big plastic holders you can find heavy plastic equivalents, frames, whatever. There are all kinds of ways of displaying your books - in more protective holders that actually provide UV protection, like, say, museum glass. Take the money you save buying a raw book that you think is beautiful, and get it framed properly in an archival frame with uv protection … way better …. Of course you won’t get that little label and number - but as we now know, that label and number is worthless. It doesn’t tell you anything a good dealer or an informed collector can’t figure out. Time to get away from this weird fetish for numbers and labels and just enjoy comics again. Forget grading companies. Forget trying to make easy money by fetishizing modern books that are worth five bucks if they look like someone actually read them. Buy raw.
But scamming predates cgc Would you buy a five figure book not knowing if it was restored or not ? Guess not grading would mean living in blissful ignorance Ultimately with some books costing big bucks - people want more guarantees than a comic sellers say so
The problem is that the reholdering department are full of people that are not graders. They are there only to reholder. Checking the comic is not part of their job description.
I was graded a 6.5 for a spawn new stand 65 issue that was signed in full signature by Todd McFarlane with a custom label-I’d really like to know where the 6.5 grade came from that book should be an 8.5 if anything maybe a 9.0-food for thought
FF15 was signed by Stan Lee on the back of the book and it was previously signed by him in the 80s. This book was doubled sign by Stan; the first was unwitnessed and the second was witnessed by CGC.
CGC are the culprits here. Sure the scammer should go to jail, but it's CGC who enabled this to happen by not having any process in place for inspecting or even LOOKING AT books that came in for reholdering. There needs to be a class action lawsuit against CGC...everyone who's ever purchased books slabbed by them is a potential victim of their criminal negligence.
I agree there should be some kind of action against CGC. I'm interested to see where things go with the person who pulled off this scam. Because, at the end of the day, despite this individual's duplicity in this situation, CGC are the ones that reholdered them. I mean they are the supposed experts in this. But, hundreds of times they reholdered these things and never noticed it. I wonder what kind of legal recourse they have in all this.
There needs to be hidden cameras installed at CGC, like on Mystery Diners. Grader 1 says, 'This comic is clearly a 10.0... watch me give it an 8.5!' Grader 2, 'Haw haw!'.
What if these guys weren't selling them online would they have been caught? Also I wonder how many could be circulating around comic conventions as trade ins et cetera and no one would know.
Hello, I found you videos recently have started watching them. Very interesting and informative. I wonder if I can ask you a question. Years ago, I bought an apparent hight grade FF#48. I sent it in to CGC to get graded and to my horror, got back the slab with the purple plastic of death stating that the comic had been altered...specifically it had been shaved. So my question is how sellable is a comic like this? Thanks again for your videos.
Thanks for watching. So it’s trimmed. Usually that is the worse kind of restoration. But it’s still sellable especially since it’s a key like ff 48. It will take longer though if you want top dollar. If you threw it in auction it will go for 50-70% of the value of a blue label unrestored version in the same grade. If you put it up as a BIN and waited for the right person. You might get 70-80%. The variation depends on the grade and just who is interested at the time
CGC is so used to seeing their own fraudulent 9.8s that these didn’t even register. Now with the recent pre-screening news, we get to look forward to 9.9s with spine ticks.
Of course CGC knew about this. They chose to play the victim and pretended to sympathise with the real victims, meanwhile keeping all the fees they themselves had scammed by looking the other way.
The cgc is not telling the truth,this goes back years ago, they have known about this for years, there is a massive cover up on this issue,all the books they have graded have been tainted for years,and they have known about it for years, I would never buy any cgc books,this is bigger than anyone has images (BIG massive cover up) you have been led,fed,and bred, this has been going on for many years, this company should be taken to court.😢
Dave, you are on the right track! Your indignation is justified, but I think it is a little more subtle. This person could be resealing the old case. There is most likely a second or third party assisting with another account. KeepitThoro found an older book as you predicted. Some may have been reholdred, but why not just get a new cert number and reseal it at home?
Im wondering if CBCS will be able to capitalize on this situation and take a larger market share considering CGC has been compromised. If not i guessing raw books will come back strong until meaningful change in the industry happens.
@@ComicBookInvestmentsif CBCS really wants to drink CGC's milkshake they should implement further security measures before CGC gets around to it. No case is infallible, people have only seemingly tampered with CGC cases because that was where the biggest return on investment would be. As CGC works to lockdown fraud, scammers may migrate to other grading services. In the meantime, CGC should offer free or reduced regrading/recasing services to all Hulk 181's to check for the stamp. If one person pulled this off, others likely have too.
No, before even with the CGC issue at the very least there was a 3rd party grader that verified 99.5% of the books still that has no stake on the comic. A raw seller (missing coupon, resto, seller overgraded, etc) by someone that has a definite desire to increase their profit on a raw.
Question ? X-Men 1 is 0.5 I was under the impression that If a book is complete with the covers, spine split or not, it should at least be 1.0, 0.5 should be for books missing part of cover, page missing, coupon out, otherwise incomplete, am I WRONG ❌ apparently according to CGC , well am I wrong ?
Yes you are wrong. A 0.5 is the lowest grade. So comics that are in really really bad shape get 0.5. Also anything missing a page or coupon also gets 0.5. It’s a terrible numbering system to be honest. They should just give it a green label and the grade if it’s missing anything. But you can have a very low grade that is complete at a 0.5
I dont think one account having repeated 9.8s of the same book would be flagged due to many accout holders having multiple copies of a book. And alot of people send books for others for a fee through their own account.
So cgc when they received these books to re holder,they didn't re-grade them? Why is that???? A book can clearly degrade even if its in a holder,no????? What if a graded book in a cgc case is left in direct sunlight for years,wouldn't that diminish its grade????
I wouldn’t put it past the smaller books being affected as well .. where there is money to be made people will do it…. Making 300 bucks on a book is very tempting to some people… a 2.0 with staining can look like 5.0 most people won’t be able to tell
CGC tamper evident is like people just putting a home alarm sticker on the house with no actual system....really, really appears there was no way to detect tampering - not much of a "Guaranty" in he end is it....
I think you put together amusing and entertaining videos whether you include rants or not. It's obvious that CGC has a big problem on their hands and I'm sure we are all interested in seeing how it plays out. My hope is that this scandal does not negatively impact the comic book industry too much especially now as a improvement in the economy is anticipated.
CGC is going to put it on the customer, a verify fee when you choose to re-label will be added to your price. A nice way to raise prices on their grading system. Also may slow the re-labeling process down some. Just an opinion.
Wait I thought these books were getting the same cert number? So ASM 194 they would all have same number so total number would be the same. Maybe I miss understood
Some food for a thought-I purchased a Batman 286 Mark jewelers CGC 9.6, pulled out my magnifying glass and said to myself there should be a 9.4 and there’s no way this was a 9.6, Needless to say, this was resolved by the seller, not something that I anticipated, why is this because if I would’ve sent it in for regrading or to be re-holstered, and it came back at 9.2 or 9.4 I’m losing good money! This is what happens when you approach the current book industry with a mentality of quantity versus quality and quantity wins you lose quality! We need to begin another company to compete against CGC and I have some brilliant ideas
The Stan Lee was signed on the back cover. There’s an image of it on CGC. I’d still wonder if he swapped something in, maybe a restored signed book or something.
Or maybe he faked the signature (would be pretty bold move, but he was obviously quite willingly to take risk), and send the original to CBCS for the verified program.
@@DanThrue it’s possible. He would have had to have opened the actual inner well and resealed it to do that though. I’m sure it’s possible. But seems much less likely than swapping some other signed book that’s either lower grade or maybe restored/incomplete.
@@AutomaticComics I agree - your scenario is probably the most likely if it's tampered with. I have tried to look at the Turtles #1 scans - and I'm not able to determine if it's a first or second printing, I've never seen a 1st print before IRL, but as far as I understand it's the coloring that makes the difference when you can't open the book. To me the colors looks almost identitcal to my 3rd print.
@@DanThrue it’s tricky with turtles 1. I’ve seen first prints with deep reds and first prints with the lighter red/pinkish color. I’m not convinced you can actually differentiate based on that color alone. But I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a second print in there.
The seller clearly has fraud books. So it’s safe to assume that af 15 was also fraud in some way. Either the signature was never verified or the book is restored
How does the refund work? You show your receipt and send the book back? Do they regrade the book and give that back as well? Or is it an either/or situation?
@@ComicBookInvestments not sure yet. I emailed them tonight after I found out. Will resubmit and see how it goes but I have my purchase receipt from 2 years ago.
Makes you wonder if someone specific was managing his account so that there wouldn't be any suspicion. Or, CGC is just incompetent. Either way, I'm really not sure how this doesn't ruin their reputation.
HI David, Hope you are well, the The Amazing Fantasy #15 signed by Stan Lee signature series fraud, some other youtuber (Maybe Swagglehaus) showed pics of that book, it had a verified signature by CGC on the back of Stan Lee in pen from a more recent Stan signing. The other signature from 86 from Stan was unverified by CGC but written on the label as they do sometime. Cheers Maurice
Another detail no one is talking about is the insanely high percentage of graders notes he received on his 9.8 books. Of the 55 ASM 194's in a 9.8 37 of them had graders notes. The signature series was signed on the first page in pen and also on the back cover in silver sharpie. The silver sharpie is what CGC witnessed and the "Stan Lee 86" was on the label because it is written inside the book.
With all that is going on with CGC, will you continue to send books to be graded? Or…….do we wait for a correction? Or,…..is now the time to switch to CBCS? Any thoughts Dave?
CGC have to “at the very least” regrade the book that is sent in for re-holdering. Even that won’t prevent someone from switching out a big boy book one time and selling it. So I agree with you, the case has to be re-engineered for it to be a “guaranteed” grade.
Dave, have you gotten any CGC submissions back since the scandal broke? Or does it seem like CGC is holding stuff longer while they figure out new processes?
I dont think there is one person talking to another in these instances. The person who is re-slabbing more than likely has no idea whose book it is. What should be happening is that the book should be getting re-graded when you reholder until they have a foolproof way to make sure the book is not tampered. He sent in 1 modern superman book too. It was kind of out of place and should be easy to track since its not a popular one to grade.
I understand the rant. But there are times where a regular guy might be doing legit quantity submissions of same book. I sent 7 asm 194 for grading in one shipment. 6 came back 9.8 or 9.6. Would you believe I really like black cat?
The Amazing Fantasy has a witnessed signature on back cover. That's why it got yellow label. It's just noted on label there was an additional writing on inside front cover.
😂 he popped off without taking the time to look up the serial notes.
Yep
Finally, a comic influencer who fearlessly exposes CGC for their blatant negligence throughout this scandal. While many other RUclips comic influencers handle CGC with kid gloves, you deserve recognition for holding them accountable for their role in the scandal. Kudos to you, sir!
I remember watching a video recently about a guy that cracked out a hulk 181 in order to press and clean for a better grade and found out the marvel value stamp was missing. They thought it was an honest mistake by CGC overlooking it because it was a blue label. Now, with all these issues coming to light, I’m not so sure…
Was this the Bry’s Comic video that you are talking about?!?
Has happened to me too
Thanks for confirming. I knew I'd seen examples cracking like this in YT vids but was having trouble tracking down the uploads.
That's the concern. If bad actors have been getting these past CGC for years, then presumably it's been even easier to get them past Joe Public too.
I've got a couple of slabs I look at and think they're overgraded. (That said, they're only $150 books so I guess it's only a dedicated fraudster who would risk jail time for swapping out those).
@@jotcollectibles Yes it was, thank you for jogging my memory. I just couldn’t remember who it involved. Thanks!
@@jotcollectibles i asked swagglehaus about that book bry talked about. They said slab was an older label, so it was not part of this. So that book might have just been missed by cgc.
Your point about people only switching out big books is valid. However what's to stop people from switching out less important books in the future? Maybe I have a 9.0 slab worth $300 and I also have an 8.0 raw copy and I just feel like keeping my 9.0 so I replace my 8.0 into the slab and sell it as a 9.0 and keep my 9.0 for my pc.
Yup. What if the scammer has a dummy account or multiple dummy accounts they’ve been using to submit his “stuff”
SUBSCRIBED. 2024 is off to a pretty wild start with this whole CGC Fraud thing carrying over. You shed some NEW light with details that hopefully collectors are taking to heart especially the whole CGC Signature Series approval of the Stan Lee Auto.....yikes Have a Great 2024!!
So CGC proves they can't tell the difference between a 9.0 and a 9.8, even though that difference can mean thousands of dollars in loss or gain for the book's owner. When people send in their scammed books, will CGC reholder them upside down, grossly mis-graded, mis-titled and with the MVS missing? Even if CGC weren't knowing collaborators in this debacle, it still shows that they ignore major flaws and do not know how to grade comics.
They most likely just took the inner well and just shoved it to a new slab not even looking at the grade. the submitted slab is a CGC so why spend time regrading or even checking they already did it. this made this scam possible due to this flaw
I agree. You'd think they'd at least take a quick look and think 'wait, that's not a 9.8'.... but no. @@mikeasher6723
@@mikeasher6723 You're probably right. I think the bare minimum they need to do now is re-grade every comic that is sent in for re-holdering. Just treat it like a brand new submission.
I agree with you on this! I think most of the blame needs to fall on CGC, yes they got scammed but they dropped the ball on this 100%. I wish more people would talk about this and put more heat on CGC.
Yes it was cgc fault for letting this happen. The G stands for guaranteed
I think the problem with more collectors holding CGC accountable is that they're too invested in CGC. They don't want to acknowledge how much CGC dropped the ball on this, because it will hurt their collections or business.
I’m not at all surprised I even stated to a business associate several months ago that CGC is going to have a class action lawsuit against them-well well well may Justice be served!!!
Thank you for not giving a sh@t about protecting your own interests. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your honest. This is bad, it’s massively bad. It’s not “statistically insignificant” as I’ve heard some folk saying. THANK YOU for your honesty on the subject. This IS a problem.
CGC likely knew about these issues and chose to take the grading/reholdering fees and looked the other way UNTIL they were recently forced to address this issue.
This all day
Come across like they don’t care. It’s all about bringing the money in.
Love the rant! How in the world did CGC reholder hundreds and hundreds of books without checking them for restoration, MVS cut out, accurate grading, etc. Apparently they've just been mindlessly reholdering books for years now! Incompetent!!
Good video - You are one of the only dealers out there who truly "Gets" how bad this is. I think that many were (and are still) poo-pooing this - at first, with "Chill out dude!, We don't know if it's bad, and "oh, it's a tiny, tiny percent - don't worry about it, CGC is gonna fix this and until then, they're still reliable!". These dealers were bending over backwards making up reasons and assumptions and ignoring the facts of the situation to marginalize the scope of the problem. They wanted collectors to mentally "quarantine" the types and numbers of which CGC slabs that might be suspect. Now, most of that marginalizing (oh, it's only Mark Jewelers, it's only...) has been shown to have been wrong. I think that every high-value CGC Blue Label book should be suspect at this point. Now, it's certainly arguable as to what "high-value" is. Is it $250, or is it $2500? We do not know just how much money any particular scammer would need to get to justify them spending the time and effort to open a CGC case and slide in a lower grade or purple graded comic. I can tell you this... as little as $100 is more than enough money for someone who needs money, and who is of nature to steal, to motivate them to do whatever they need to, to steal. People who think that this "has to be" limited to $1000 books to make it worthwhile to a scammer are projecting onto all scammers their own sense of what would make it worthwhile to them.
Something that dovetails with your point about motivation to scam is, opportunity - the availability of comics suitable for use in this scam.
If the scammer already owns, say, two issues of Amazing Spider-Man 135 that both present as about an 8.0 to casual inspection, but one has a clipped coupon inside, you can bet the scammer is going to think seriously about trying the slab-crack switcheroo with ASM 135 just because it’s convenient.
Also, I would expect that aspiring slab switchers often do a few trial runs on lower-priced comics, moving up to the more valuable ones when they’ve got some experience and finesse.
The 6.5 AF15 SS is also signed on the back cover under the CGC SS program. Then it has the inner signature. Two Stan Lee signatures.
I hope they look in to who was processing the re-holding of these books. This smells of an inside job.
You're exactly right. It's highly unlikely that this scammer is the only doing this.
Looking good since Japan. Glad you healthy again. Glad you help exposing this fraud.
Class action lawsuit, class action lawsuit, class, action lawsuit!!!
Remember back in the day (a couple of years ago), when CGC were being swamped with submissions, and books were taking sometimes a year to get back to their owners because they couldn’t keep up with the demand? What if the scammer(s) were submitting these books during that time, hoping that CGC would not have the time to check re holders, because they were up against it?
Never understood why CGC doesn’t have graders for each comic book eras. Have a number of graders for Golden Age, another number for Silver, Bronze etc. That way, collectors like myself, who are only interested in Silver Age (and some Bronze Age), would not have their books stuck in a line behind modern books (of which thousands more are submitted), and having to wait much longer to get their books back! Doing it this way may also allow graders more time to properly examine these books so they don’t miss any flaws and the collector ends up getting a grade that actually reflects the true condition of the book!
Because
a) shouldn’t really fast track some people just because of the book they have (but still
Paid like everyone else ). Like saying one collector more important than another
B) grading is supposed to be universal . So silver and copper graded against the same standards . Good grader should be able to cope with all books . Makes them a better grader. Like a mechanic with experience on a variety of cars
The snowball will be huge when it gets to the bottom of the hill. This is a very informative video.
Here is the biggest issue. How do you not question someone reholdering 500 books? I've been a cgc member for 6 or 7 years and had 2 books reholdered......
Ya I’ve only reholders ones that I got back from cgc already damaged. Which is rare.
The trust is gone. I won’t be in a rush to use there services again. Also, won’t have the confidence buying anything CGC from eBay or anywhere else for that matter.
I was thinking the same thing. It’s obvious that CGC has no internal controls. How is there no flag when one account gets 36 reholders?
This is one of the very reasons why I hold onto my Mark jewelers and national diamond inserts and adds until I have enough confidence in CGC!
Apparently that signature series was signed on the back. The one inside already existed and was noted on the label. Totally agree about a new case being needed - maybe some way to link the inner well to the case. If not, a full re-grade would be required. Guessing he was not the only one doing this.
Yes the case needs to be reworked. And reholders regraded.
CGC is either totally in on this scam OR they are the most bumbling incompetent prats imaginable. Neither option encourages me to submit my books to them.
100%. Almost certain this guy had someone on the inside to keep this going.
@@johnnyharen1504that's a good point, because it happened so often. It's almost unbelievable that they could have missed so many red flags.
It's the latter I'm sure
Cgc is the scam 😂😂😂. The comic book industry was here before Cgc n will keep trucking without Cgc
I got one of those ASM 194 in a 9.8, directly from the guy. Now that I take a closer look at it, it's like a 9.4 - 9.2. Now I am wondering do you think it'll become more valuable now as a Scammed book? This hobby tends to make weird stuff desirable.
That is an interesting take on the situation. The problem is that people would be encouraged to replicate the scam book in an attempt to increase the value of lower value books unless there was some way to have some complete list of original "scam" books.
I don’t think it will become more valuable. I know cgc is doing some type of reholder for those special books. Maybe a refund too
You won't see me buying it, but I wouldn't doubt it if enough get reindexed through the process and there are only a few from this list with their fradulent registry number remaining (meaning their rarity goes up as people send them back in for review).
Clayton Crain's Acetate Spider Man 9.8 X100
Who is the guy?
I'm not sure why people are surprised. This is the same company that gave 9.8s to "invisible" comic books.
They really are a joke of a company.
Well, I wont be touching a single book on THAT list. Every CGC copy is potentially tainted. And this is just ONE reholder scammer that they know about. Censorship is rife on the CGC boards. Not only are they mind-numbingly incompetent, they're nasty and petty too. They really despise RUclipsrs for some reason. I sincerely hope CGC goes bankrupt this year.
"They really despise RUclipsrs for some reason"
lol, I wonder why
I won't touch any graded collectibles at all. I think this is hilarious, and I knew it would happen. Now it's time to watch it all crash and burn. I love it!!
Most of my comics signed in the 1990's were on the first page in pen, some writers were not comfortable signing the cover, spoiling the art and some interior artists only signed - their - work, which was inside, so I would believe an inside signature occurred in 1986.
You bring up a valid point as to this guy sent in presumably the same 9.8 book for re-holder 100 times and no one ever questioned.
And sending in the same raw book to be graded at a 9.8. Or maybe had a few 9.8 copies to keep rotating.
Exactly. That is probably how it happened
Ok I have maybe an explanation to to the Stan Lee signature of 1986. I have an Amazing spiderman annual 15 signed by Stan Lee. It's not graded but I have two photos of him signing it. That was in 1984. Would that be sufficient for a cgc signature grade?
It also makes me wonder if the coin market is safe. If you can do it to comic cases I would think coin slabs might be easier.
Yeah I'm with you. That's just over 200 reholdered 9.8s
Absolutely shocking!
And the AF15 was the first thing I flagged up on that list to my friends. But I never noticed the year! That's ridiculous
I feel like they are scrambling to save their business. How do they know how many books were compromised they weren't even aware of this scandal till a couple of weeks ago and now we are supposed to believe they have solved it and know exactly how many were messed up. It would not surprise me if thousands of books were fraudulent. I watched a youtuber heat gun a slab open just to show how it is done and if he can do it. You can bet that scammers have been doing it for a while and I am sure they don't plan on stopping.
I’m looking forward to watching Sound of Freedom but also with trepidation. Lol
Another great video and a great service to the community. I’m sifting through the channels I subscribe to, there are some I’ve subbed to for years and am unsubscribing to given the off the charts shilling for cgc I’ve witnessed by them this past week. I get they are exposed to this investment risk, we all are to varying degrees but to say it’s “statistically insignificant” is totally disingenuous and I can’t watch those channels now. Thank you for being an honest voice.
*_I have yet to hear someone say "it must have been an inside job"._*
The Cgc board of directors (if there is one) has no clue how much business they are losing day after day from regular collectors who might be considering have items slabbed, that WILL NOT!😮
As a company, why would ask how many 9.8s ONE person sends in if they keep paying for the services ?
I don't buy a lot of slabs so I really don't know, but isn't there some way to tell if a book has been reholdered or not? What I don't like about CGC is if they actually published the grader's notes for free at least the external damage could be easily checked. Every slab I have, I looked up grader's notes and most of them say absolutely nothing useful, or they are unavailable. I am so unimpressed with their service, I only buy slabs for less than case cost or at raw FMV only - I do not pay a premium for slabs.
What CGC should do is track down all those who may have been swindled. Regrade the book for its actual grade free of charge. Eliminate the serial number for the books affected or keep the serial number but make the notation. CGC should pay the difference in the value that was lost to the new owner. The individual(s) who were involved should be published like America's Most Wanted as a buyer beware and prosecuted and also be made to pay restitution.
The high grade books are seriously compromised , and since you can’t open the slab it’s impossible to know if your book is compromised
The book with the Stan Lee signature inside also is signed by him on the back cover. That latter one is the Signature series witnessed signature.
This whole scandal confirms my long held belief: slabbing encourages people to look at the number not the book. Buy raw, folks. If you can’t hold the book in your hands before you buy it, buy from a trusted dealer with a return policy who provides good pictures and answers your questions. If you like how the books look in those big plastic holders you can find heavy plastic equivalents, frames, whatever. There are all kinds of ways of displaying your books - in more protective holders that actually provide UV protection, like, say, museum glass. Take the money you save buying a raw book that you think is beautiful, and get it framed properly in an archival frame with uv protection … way better ….
Of course you won’t get that little label and number - but as we now know, that label and number is worthless. It doesn’t tell you anything a good dealer or an informed collector can’t figure out.
Time to get away from this weird fetish for numbers and labels and just enjoy comics again. Forget grading companies. Forget trying to make easy money by fetishizing modern books that are worth five bucks if they look like someone actually read them. Buy raw.
😂
But scamming predates cgc
Would you buy a five figure book not knowing if it was restored or not ? Guess not grading would mean living in blissful ignorance
Ultimately with some books costing big bucks - people want more guarantees than a comic sellers say so
The problem is that the reholdering department are full of people that are not graders. They are there only to reholder. Checking the comic is not part of their job description.
Great episode. A lot of good insight.
I was graded a 6.5 for a spawn new stand 65 issue that was signed in full signature by Todd McFarlane with a custom label-I’d really like to know where the 6.5 grade came from that book should be an 8.5 if anything maybe a 9.0-food for thought
So why are we sending books to CGC? Seems like this has devalued slabbing books.
FF15 was signed by Stan Lee on the back of the book and it was previously signed by him in the 80s. This book was doubled sign by Stan; the first was unwitnessed and the second was witnessed by CGC.
CGC are the culprits here. Sure the scammer should go to jail, but it's CGC who enabled this to happen by not having any process in place for inspecting or even LOOKING AT books that came in for reholdering. There needs to be a class action lawsuit against CGC...everyone who's ever purchased books slabbed by them is a potential victim of their criminal negligence.
I agree there should be some kind of action against CGC. I'm interested to see where things go with the person who pulled off this scam. Because, at the end of the day, despite this individual's duplicity in this situation, CGC are the ones that reholdered them. I mean they are the supposed experts in this. But, hundreds of times they reholdered these things and never noticed it. I wonder what kind of legal recourse they have in all this.
If you look up the af 15 cgcss 6.5 it has images of it on the cgc web site amd its signed on the back of the book.
There needs to be hidden cameras installed at CGC, like on Mystery Diners. Grader 1 says, 'This comic is clearly a 10.0... watch me give it an 8.5!' Grader 2, 'Haw haw!'.
What if these guys weren't selling them online would they have been caught? Also I wonder how many could be circulating around comic conventions as trade ins et cetera and no one would know.
Soo maybe PGX is not as bad as people say...
Hello, I found you videos recently have started watching them. Very interesting and informative. I wonder if I can ask you a question. Years ago, I bought an apparent hight grade FF#48. I sent it in to CGC to get graded and to my horror, got back the slab with the purple plastic of death stating that the comic had been altered...specifically it had been shaved. So my question is how sellable is a comic like this? Thanks again for your videos.
Thanks for watching. So it’s trimmed. Usually that is the worse kind of restoration. But it’s still sellable especially since it’s a key like ff 48. It will take longer though if you want top dollar. If you threw it in auction it will go for 50-70% of the value of a blue label unrestored version in the same grade. If you put it up as a BIN and waited for the right person. You might get 70-80%. The variation depends on the grade and just who is interested at the time
@@ComicBookInvestments Thanks for replying and so quickly. I'll throw it in and see what happens.. All the best....
CGC is so used to seeing their own fraudulent 9.8s that these didn’t even register. Now with the recent pre-screening news, we get to look forward to 9.9s with spine ticks.
My wife and I watched that movie! Very disturbing and real. Sickening how this exist in our world and government officials are part of this
Of course CGC knew about this. They chose to play the victim and pretended to sympathise with the real victims, meanwhile keeping all the fees they themselves had scammed by looking the other way.
Is the seller in question still currently selling books? I have yet to hear the name of the person responsible
I’m sure they are. Probably just make a new eBay bameb
The cgc is not telling the truth,this goes back years ago, they have known about this for years, there is a massive cover up on this issue,all the books they have graded have been tainted for years,and they have known about it for years, I would never buy any cgc books,this is bigger than anyone has images (BIG massive cover up) you have been led,fed,and bred, this has been going on for many years, this company should be taken to court.😢
I had the same reaction to the ASM 194. If all of those were submitted from the same account it seems like they would have caught that.
Dave, you are on the right track! Your indignation is justified, but I think it is a little more subtle. This person could be resealing the old case. There is most likely a second or third party assisting with another account. KeepitThoro found an older book as you predicted. Some may have been reholdred, but why not just get a new cert number and reseal it at home?
Im wondering if CBCS will be able to capitalize on this situation and take a larger market share considering CGC has been compromised. If not i guessing raw books will come back strong until meaningful change in the industry happens.
I think this would be a good time for cbcs
@@ComicBookInvestmentsif CBCS really wants to drink CGC's milkshake they should implement further security measures before CGC gets around to it. No case is infallible, people have only seemingly tampered with CGC cases because that was where the biggest return on investment would be. As CGC works to lockdown fraud, scammers may migrate to other grading services.
In the meantime, CGC should offer free or reduced regrading/recasing services to all Hulk 181's to check for the stamp. If one person pulled this off, others likely have too.
No, before even with the CGC issue at the very least there was a 3rd party grader that verified 99.5% of the books still that has no stake on the comic. A raw seller (missing coupon, resto, seller overgraded, etc) by someone that has a definite desire to increase their profit on a raw.
Question ? X-Men 1 is 0.5
I was under the impression that If a book is complete with the covers, spine split or not, it should at least be 1.0, 0.5 should be for books missing part of cover, page missing, coupon out, otherwise incomplete, am I WRONG ❌ apparently according to CGC , well am I wrong ?
Yes you are wrong. A 0.5 is the lowest grade. So comics that are in really really bad shape get 0.5. Also anything missing a page or coupon also gets 0.5. It’s a terrible numbering system to be honest. They should just give it a green label and the grade if it’s missing anything. But you can have a very low grade that is complete at a 0.5
I dont think one account having repeated 9.8s of the same book would be flagged due to many accout holders having multiple copies of a book. And alot of people send books for others for a fee through their own account.
Immaculate Comics recently said, "I have an AF15 that is missing a coupon from an interior page that they didn’t catch."
So cgc when they received these books to re holder,they didn't re-grade them? Why is that???? A book can clearly degrade even if its in a holder,no????? What if a graded book in a cgc case is left in direct sunlight for years,wouldn't that diminish its grade????
I wouldn’t put it past the smaller books being affected as well .. where there is money to be made people will do it…. Making 300 bucks on a book is very tempting to some people… a 2.0 with staining can look like 5.0 most people won’t be able to tell
CGC tamper evident is like people just putting a home alarm sticker on the house with no actual system....really, really appears there was no way to detect tampering - not much of a "Guaranty" in he end is it....
I think you put together amusing and entertaining videos whether you include rants or not. It's obvious that CGC has a big problem on their hands and I'm sure we are all interested in seeing how it plays out. My hope is that this scandal does not negatively impact the comic book industry too much especially now as a improvement in the economy is anticipated.
I don’t think it will. I think cgc has built up enough trust over the decades. They just have to come out with a solution
Your rant was very well spoken. And I appreciated your opinion.
And insights.
Thank you
This could literally affect thousands of comics. This is just the only person who got caught. Basically any comic that was ever reholdered is suspect.
On Signature Series - was that always CGC'S policy?
CGC is going to put it on the customer, a verify fee when you choose to re-label will be added to your price. A nice way to raise prices on their grading system. Also may slow the re-labeling process down some. Just an opinion.
Dave, I was always under the impression that CGC regrades ALL books even for reholders?
Sorry about my comment. I think I thought of the scam in the wrong way.
They need a new case but what are they going to do for the rest of the cases out there now?
Wait I thought these books were getting the same cert number? So ASM 194 they would all have same number so total number would be the same. Maybe I miss understood
Some food for a thought-I purchased a Batman 286 Mark jewelers CGC 9.6, pulled out my magnifying glass and said to myself there should be a 9.4 and there’s no way this was a 9.6, Needless to say, this was resolved by the seller, not something that I anticipated, why is this because if I would’ve sent it in for regrading or to be re-holstered, and it came back at 9.2 or 9.4 I’m losing good money! This is what happens when you approach the current book industry with a mentality of quantity versus quality and quantity wins you lose quality! We need to begin another company to compete against CGC and I have some brilliant ideas
Hit the nail on the head! CGC failed here. Also - I’m sad this account was based in my hood. 😵💫😵💫😵💫
Per usual , in unison with everything you said !
The Stan Lee was signed on the back cover. There’s an image of it on CGC. I’d still wonder if he swapped something in, maybe a restored signed book or something.
Or maybe he faked the signature (would be pretty bold move, but he was obviously quite willingly to take risk), and send the original to CBCS for the verified program.
@@DanThrue it’s possible. He would have had to have opened the actual inner well and resealed it to do that though. I’m sure it’s possible. But seems much less likely than swapping some other signed book that’s either lower grade or maybe restored/incomplete.
@@AutomaticComics I agree - your scenario is probably the most likely if it's tampered with.
I have tried to look at the Turtles #1 scans - and I'm not able to determine if it's a first or second printing, I've never seen a 1st print before IRL, but as far as I understand it's the coloring that makes the difference when you can't open the book. To me the colors looks almost identitcal to my 3rd print.
@@DanThrue it’s tricky with turtles 1. I’ve seen first prints with deep reds and first prints with the lighter red/pinkish color. I’m not convinced you can actually differentiate based on that color alone.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a second print in there.
I think the AF 15 is signed twice, its signed on the back cover as well. The pic is on the cgc site
The seller clearly has fraud books. So it’s safe to assume that af 15 was also fraud in some way. Either the signature was never verified or the book is restored
If you go into Blue Beetle without any expectations you should be okay! I thought it was fun enough and got a couple of chuckles out it for sure! 😅
Question if your an owner of one of those books is it better to keep it or turn it in. Does it make the book rare from the story like the acetate book
The acetate book has dropped in value over time. I would turn it in and get your money back
I have one of the ASM 238 9.8. Very sad as it’s a newsstand as well. Working on a refund from CGC.
How does the refund work? You show your receipt and send the book back? Do they regrade the book and give that back as well? Or is it an either/or situation?
@@UpTheDown7 Go through resubmit process which I am doing now. I’m assuming mine won’t have the Tatoos or something. Then you get a refund I believe.
@@Mercdds Right. Sorry dude that really sucks
That sucks. Do they refund you what you paid for it. Or refund you what the fmv is?
@@ComicBookInvestments not sure yet. I emailed them tonight after I found out. Will resubmit and see how it goes but I have my purchase receipt from 2 years ago.
Should we hold on sending book to CGC or have them grade by CBCS?
RIP graded comics.
Makes you wonder if someone specific was managing his account so that there wouldn't be any suspicion. Or, CGC is just incompetent. Either way, I'm really not sure how this doesn't ruin their reputation.
HI David,
Hope you are well, the The Amazing Fantasy #15 signed by Stan Lee signature series fraud, some other youtuber (Maybe Swagglehaus) showed pics of that book, it had a verified signature by CGC on the back of Stan Lee in pen from a more recent Stan signing. The other signature from 86 from Stan was unverified by CGC but written on the label as they do sometime.
Cheers
Maurice
Another detail no one is talking about is the insanely high percentage of graders notes he received on his 9.8 books. Of the 55 ASM 194's in a 9.8 37 of them had graders notes. The signature series was signed on the first page in pen and also on the back cover in silver sharpie. The silver sharpie is what CGC witnessed and the "Stan Lee 86" was on the label because it is written inside the book.
124? Then recover saying 194. Good correction. Good rant all in all. Like the videos!
This is the best take. CGC is meaningless, are you going to keep working with CGC?
With all that is going on with CGC, will you continue to send books to be graded? Or…….do we wait for a correction? Or,…..is now the time to switch to CBCS? Any thoughts Dave?
CGC have to “at the very least” regrade the book that is sent in for re-holdering. Even that won’t prevent someone from switching out a big boy book one time and selling it. So I agree with you, the case has to be re-engineered for it to be a “guaranteed” grade.
CGC what a joke! They just got scammed so easily,
Dave, have you gotten any CGC submissions back since the scandal broke? Or does it seem like CGC is holding stuff longer while they figure out new processes?
I have been getting stuff back at the same speed as usual
I dont think there is one person talking to another in these instances. The person who is re-slabbing more than likely has no idea whose book it is. What should be happening is that the book should be getting re-graded when you reholder until they have a foolproof way to make sure the book is not tampered. He sent in 1 modern superman book too. It was kind of out of place and should be easy to track since its not a popular one to grade.
Maybe that modern Superman was to throw cgc off his trail
I understand the rant. But there are times where a regular guy might be doing legit quantity submissions of same book. I sent 7 asm 194 for grading in one shipment. 6 came back 9.8 or 9.6. Would you believe I really like black cat?
I can see that. But 100? That seems crazy
Do you think this is possible with cbcs?
Dave shuffling papers like a newscaster is the cherry on top of the rant
Hahahha. I kinda liked that. I should have more newspapers handy