Robert provides an update on 'the update' to his Powerwall installation. He has been busy tweaking his system to ensure instantaneous response in the advent of a blackout. He also shows us what else is going on in his garage, with an update on his Zappi, and introduction to a V2G unit, and lots of lovely statistics to show how homes and cars can be powered by solar, even in England! For easy reference through each section of this episode, see *timestamps* below. *AND* If you like this episode, you might enjoy the previous episode on National Grid's 'Green Energy Success Story': ruclips.net/video/ONp8dismI-Q/видео.html
@@barryamorris The tricky bit is getting it to play nice with the power grid management software controlling when the power is going back out. If a lot of houses just dumb-state it both ways, that could disrupt the local grid distribution or fry some of their equipment (and people). Back when one house in 100,000 had surplus electricity, it just ran the meter back a bit and the grid coped with the margins -- it was statistically insignificant to the total charges & resistances (especially out in the country where the very early adopters tended to be). If you're going to have most or all houses doing the same thing in town, it could destabilize altogether. At some point in the equation, the margin becomes the main sum, and everyone has to learn to play nice with others.
I assume from this that the Powerwalls can't emulate the V2G functionality, yet? If there's a Powerwall connected to two phases of the three phase supply why isn't the V2G unit connected to the thrird phase? Love the tech but could you share as to whether Powerwall prices have followed the downward trend in vehicle battery prices? Thanks.
animist channel Smart meters measure both import and export rates. As for playing nice with the grid, you have to notify them that you have generating equipment in the first place. They balance the grid constantly by ramping generators up and down constantly! The more people that can export power, the less reliant we are on coal, and other legacy power supplies. We need far more micro generation and battery storage systems. If we do, blackouts and brownouts will become a thing of the past. Current generation methods are still unreliable, offering uneven wave form power supplies. The energy generation still has a lot to improve on.
" I love it when problems have multiple layers". What an amazing update Robert. Very interesting the tech you have in your home. Just a little bit a jealousy here. Not much, just a little bit. Well maybe more than a little but not a lot. OK well maybe a lot of jealousy. Charging your LEAF at 22kW at home is extraordinary. Congratulations.
Due to your channel, I suggested my neighbour get a V2G from OVO. He loves it. We are central Bristol, so if you want to see one working, feel free to drop in. We've got Solar, heat pumps and everything here!
Thanks again for showing us what is possible in this new world of clean power production and use. I did call over a year ago to thank Robert personally. We live just over the hill from him, and have followed his lead with Solar, Eddi, Zappi, Hub, etc. Battery in the garage, with a Hyundai, Ioniq, then a Leaf 30kWh to connect into the V2G run by OVO. The strange thing is that OVO declined after a lot of head scratching to put us on the V2G trial, because we had a battery (6.3 kWh) in the system. Despite being told it was not for export to the grid, they said no, as perhaps it might export. You Robert 5 miles away, have 2 batteries, and a leaf that can’t be used, and still get onto the trial! Such is the aura of your persona! Well done, I look forward to seeing how it works. As for us we sold the leaf, its Winter performance gave us issues that caused tears, and we can’t use it for V2G. So again we follow your eg. With a Kona 64, and may be a Tesla M3. Ces’t la vie.
That islanding switch over is more like it! I couldn't believe it was so bad in the earlier episode and its good to hear that it was a faulty timing set up.
Glad I saw this as i honestly was turned off the Power Wall a lot from your first video which seemed to show that the whole house would die for 20secs and then boot back up. I do wish you'd gone into more detail on what actually was changed to make such a big difference in the cutover time
We had the first powercut which has happened when we were home. The first we knew of it was with a neighbour coming round and asking us if we had power - which we did. The Powerwall was happily running the house and itself being charged from our PV panels. Brilliant!
I purchased the Zappi’s also and I’ve had nothing but trouble with them. I’m now on my 3rd one due to failures of the units. They have a quality problem I think...
We put our system to the test last week. I live near Philadelphia, PA and we had a major storm come through. We were off the grid for 62 hours 18 minutes but we were never out of power. Between the batteries and the solar we could do pretty much anything we wanted. I only have one issue with the Powerwalls, the bridge that allows it to power the house and use the solar only comes in a 200amp version, we have 400amp service to the house so we did have to decide what would remain powered and what would not. I think if they had a bridge that could handle our entire house I would have gotten a 3rd Powerwall to allow us to use the AC. The best part about the Powerwall is that, unlike a generator, the batteries are used everyday to help power the house.
I remember being disappointed and seeing the embarrassed look on the engineer's face when they turned the power off and it took a few seconds for the battery power to kick in, in a previous video. I'm so glad this is now working like an uninterruptible power supply. If I didn't rent and could have all this fun stuff installed, I'd love to do so! Must be lots of fun knowing that you're producing your own energy :) Thanks Kryten for this update!
Going to do battle with EDF in France this week. They keep pestering me to put solar on my roof, but have been reluctant to let you store it and do V2G, I’ll let you know if they have changed their minds yet!
Libellula Washington My agreement with the French Grid operator says I cannot have storage. No big problem for me as my solar is there primarily to power the pool pumps and heat my water.
Store the solar and use the grid as a generator, don't export to the grid. If everyone did this the grid would be stable and they could not jack up your cost to buy, just because you have solar.
@@wrong-waygo-back9355 if everyone did that, the grid would become unsustainable, economicomically. Yourd be self sustaining, not profitable anymore, can't have that.
V2G would be a stop-gap measure to large scale decentralized grid storage. Paid for by you, the customer of your mode of transportation. It would flatten the curve for gas-powrplants to ramp up/down and softening the load on the grid as a whole.
Thank you. Looking forward to the car to grid. If possible, please also share the diagram of your 3-phase writing at the garage entrance. Guess: black cable to the fuse, to the meter to the mains.. From there to the tails (this is where it appears confusing). Thank you
Had my powerwall for a few months now and love it. Got it to be self sufficient and to handle power outages (which we tend to have due to high winds and fire danger when they shut off the power proactively). I love the security it provides me. Barely notice a flicker of the lights when we do lose power. I do only have it set non-backup activities for during our peak power hours (4pm-9pm) though so that the battery will last as long as possible (cycles). Curious about what your power company pays you for power you pump back into the grid vs. what you pay for power delivered. One of the big misconceptions here (Northern California) with V2G is that people think the power company is going to pay them the retail price of power they pump into the grid. But they only get the average wholesale price (approx $0.03/kWh) vs the retail price ($0.09/kWh for lowest tier price and up to $0.45/kWh for highest tier price based on ToD and usage). And even the highest marginal retail price during the hottest days is not enough to justify the V2G expense of recharging from the grid. I only see V2G as useful V2H, if you don't have a powerwall installed. Also, over here in NorCal, the clean power is during the day due to such a high percentage of solar, and the dirty power is during the evening/night time. Of course, we do drive on the other side of the road. :D
Thanks for the video! I suspect this will be the future as it also can be used as a stabilizer for the public electrica gridl and helps to make it more resiliant. If you are interested in professional electrical power storage at home level you should also check out E3DC.
Fascinated by this as I'd like to get my old cottage ready for its first electric car, but as the parking space is in a field opposite the property I may have to dig up the road and install a three phase power supply, junction box, meter etc outdoors in a cabinet and there's precious little room let alone for a v2g and gateway box. Sounds complex and expensive. Who helps plan such an installation, Bobby? Who do I contact?
Spot the Kryten walk! 😅 Robert, do you already make a bit of money from supplying the grid? And can your setup make money taking energy when the price goes negative? So many questions! 😬
It's a shame smart meter support for three phase isn't very good. We should really be pushing for all new houses to be three phase. It makes it a lot easier from a DNO perspective to add solar and batteries. It also enables the transition from gas boilers to heat pumps, and faster EV charging.
Yes, and also really crucial for commercial applications. V2G will work fabulously with commercial vehicles that are used during the workday and then parked up for the evening. Any remaining juice in the batteries can be fed into the grid during the evening peak, before the vehicles are recharged in the early hours of the morning, ready for the next day.
Yup, and where there is a chance that 250 volts will give you a really bad day, but one you will remember, if you short out across 2 of those phases and get 415 volts going through you, YOU may not be aware of it, (being dead), your nearest and dearest will. And can drink to your memory every year. If 3 phase were to be rolled out to domestic dwellings, the occupants need to be far more aware about the dangers than they are at present. Where half the population can not even wire a plug!
but then you would need more substations and transformers if you were to encourage that. Plus relaying all the distribution cables. I dont understand how having three phase makes it easier?
@@pauldawson-plincke249 Three phase is already in the street, it's just the cable to each house that's different. The phases must remain fairly balanced, so houses in the same street tend to go on alternate phases.
Design for most new tech seems to be an afterthought. Compare the Ovo and Zappi systems to the simplicity and clean design of the Tesla boxes. Sometimes no matter how good your tech is, most will judge a book by its cover.
I envy you. I'm looking to buy a similar system with one difference - additional wind turbine. I hope to stay green even in winter, when it's less sunny, but more windy:) Now I have to decide whether it's better to have a small one in my backyard or co-own a big one.
Unfortunately a lot of nighttime power is supported by coal here, making the nighttime use dirtier than during the day - however this is getting better as more wind and other storage capacity comes into play. The biggest problem that I see with using the excess power to charge the car rather than feeding the grid is that (outside of COVID-19 restrictions) my car is generally not at home during the day as I’m out at work or whatever, and the car needs to be charged at night when there isn’t any solar. Similarly this means that I need to use grid power at night. Hopefully we will start to see the price for home batteries drop substantially such that having a 100kWh home battery is cost effective. This would be enough to store my excess power and charge the car without impacting the house supply, and would also allow the house to run for longer if there are a few really bad days for generating in a row. For what it’s worth though, after a big storm here in February (summer time remember), the grid was taken down for 1.5 days. Some neighbours lost power for a week. Our place just kept running, with solar hot water etc, and the only real impact was no internet (cables down) and no car charging at home. Something else worth noting is that the ‘self powered’ graph that Robert was showing excludes any power provided to the grid. It’s really showing how much you house has been independent and not the raw numbers generated. For example, if my house draws 2kWh from the grid and consumes 10kWh then it’ll show as 80% self powered, even if the solar generates 30kWh and puts 20kWh of that into the grid. As a final word, my place would actually do a lot better in winter if the winter solstice didn’t put the sun below the tree level of some enormous 25-30m gum trees that shade the roof. Don’t underestimate the effect of shading in winter.
In Germany 3 phase is standard for houses, however in bigger houses for a couple of families they don't have 3 phase in every single flat. In rural areas we have 43 kw of maximum power out of the grid, per one family house.
I had a similar issue with my mCHP (micro combined heat and power) system where I couldn’t have it running during a power cut to avoid dumping excess back to the grid... ironic as the tech was designed specifically for that purpose....
The Tesla switch is fast indeed! A colleague of mine more than a decade ago already had a switch between grid and home battery, but it had simple contactors and time relays. When power went out, it would pull a large contactor (normally closed contacts) disconnecting the house from mains. When all three phases were back and continuously on for more than 20 min, it would switch off the contactor and connect back to mains. It worked well, but there was a noticeable gap between switching in power out situation. He did have UPS setup for computers etc, so they didn't notice it. You noticed lights go out and then back on (maybe half a second delay)
EWheeler Finland Think solid state switching. To get the change over correct, there will always be a millisecond gap, to ensure you disconnect from one, and switch to the other.
A Nicola Badger with a Fuel cell may be a answer for V2G or V2Home , if you can fill up your car from a hydrogen station and let the vehicle in times of shortage jump in and replenish your Tesla Powerwall units and provide electricity during the night , that might be an answer.Also on the IoT-front your appliances could sync with your energy supply and give you a heads up when to load your dish-washer or washing machine .
I'm still not too keen on V2G. The only reason I'd ever have an electric car discharge would be to provide backup power to the house. As for V1G, I'm thinking it should become the default way of recharging plug-in vehicles, if not mandatory.
Robert for the Vehicle to Grid why can’t you use your Tesla model 3 instead of the the leaf ? Great set up, explanation and demo of the app by the way.
while the tesla powerwall was still being delayed, I worked on similar project at University. extremely high transient switching currents on the DC side when trying to have instantaneous switchover when blackout on grid occured. Nearly instant but we couldn't figure out in time how to suppress the high transient currents
I love how passionate you are, to have invested this much in this, but I'm very curious how this works out financially. Will there be a break even? Are you just happy accepting the loss?
Instantaneous switching, wonderful. And the three phase? Is it so you can export big power back to the grid? I'll need to go back to the 1st update and edit my comment about the long switching time.
If you import or export too much power on only one phase it imbalances the grid (reduces efficiency and can shorten the lifespan of generators due to vibration). So in Robert's situation they wanted his feed in to be balanced across the three phases, which also means they can triple the amount of power he can feed in without having to install any more wires out in the street (just the extra ones from the street to Robert's garage). As he said in the video, this requirement is mostly due to him being at the end of a small capacity part of the grid.
How quickly can it respond then? I saw the briefest of flickers, but will that reset your microwave clock / turn off your tv, computer, and other appliances or is it fast enough for them to keep running?
I have noticed a disturbing trend. The more expensive and capable your camera is, the lower framerate is used. 24fps is not a artistic choice, it is an ancient technical and cost limitation which is long been overpassed, when even phones can record 4K@60fps continous (in very good quality, IF you provide strong lighting). High resulutions become useless, if video is choppy and filled with motionblur, which hides the details.
Robert, What isolation switch/Gateway do I need if I have battery storage that isn't a TESLA wall and want Power-Cut. Can you recommend where to get them and a make. Thank you
That LED wouldn't be a good indicator of a power cut. The capacitors were probably still charged between switchover. Better to have used a tungsten globe fed directly from AC.
This car to grid thing makes no sense to me. You want to keep your car fully charged at all times if you are actually using it. Why would you want to discharge it during daytime or any time, for that matter?
Why would you want to be grid independant? Rather that putting it back on the grid when demand is high (and dirty) Seems way better ecologically speaking. Am i missing something?
I have a QUESTION? In my country the infrastructure cannot accept consumer made electricity. So can I use the Tesla system as a back up only, because the power cuts here are pretty enormous.
I'd love to have the problems Robert has. Don't get me wrong I've got my own solar and batteries and off street parking for my soon to be here Corsa-e but surely I can be a bit jealous.
Great video! Solar panels, lithium batteries, electric vehicles and now V2G, right now I feel envy. And you live in UK imagine the potential of your installation in Spain ...
Or Australia. We are looking at a daily average of 23kWh from a 6.5kW system in winter, close to 40 in summer. I honestly think Tesla is missing a trick here with v2g. Do we want to rely on it for backbone storage? Probably not, but it can be the peaking output so we don't double up on the batteries required. And you usually need peaking output when supply charges are high, so better for those becoming an occasional temporary supply.
Three phase supply, trench dug, two Powerwalls, huge solar array, installation etc... I'm going to guess north of £40k. Large UK home likely £2k per year plus the cars, let's say 20k miles of driving at 250Wh per mile is 5,000kWh, maybe another £1k. But the solar only works half of the year so let's say it saves £1,500 per year. By my calculations it would take ~25 years to pay itself back. If he can get the V2G working, I'm guessing that's another £2k but it could earn £ks back, so who knows.
Most solar plus battery is now around the 16 to 20k region. The first battery came from a payment protection claim and that is on the video. The second battery came for "free" but involved a lot of expense for the three phase and extras. All in all with the zappi as well I think Bobby has spent about 15k on the whole setup of batteries and solar. If you factor in the bargain price and he is travelling most of the time using a leaf or the Tesla plus the off set cost of not buying fuel for hot water or the cars, the pay back is closer to 8 to 10 years.
It's definitely still at the stage where doing it to save money is the wrong reason. Do it because it's interesting to you, or you like the safety of having power if the grid goes down, but don't do it to save money. That day is getting closer but it's not here yet. Once V2G comes in then there's a real chance of saving money, but it only works out because you already have the batteries in the car, and you already have the car to use as a car. If you had to buy the batteries separately because you don't have an EV (e.g. a bunch of Powerwalls) then it still won't be economical for a while.
You can get a BYD 10 kwh LFP for around 5k + VAT, it works with a hybrid inverter (a combo inverter for solar panels and a battery). The solar + inverter costs around 700 to 750 € per kWP for the material, installation costs depends on the house (which roof material, height, etc). The solar itself has become relatively inexpensive the last years, storages have to become cheaper in future.
I would also love to know the cost and when this breaks even. "It all depends" is not a good answer. This is a practical application in a not-so-sunny country with an electric car and stuff so it would be awesome to have a real life example in real life conditions. Of course, if I am from Brazil I would not take this and say "yeah, it will be the same". But those solar thingies are always so hypothetical "yeah, if the sun shines so and so and this and that and the roof..." Just give me the numbers from your experience, I can then ask locally around for quotes.
@@FenixBG "It all depends" IS unfortunately most common. Every electrical company has different prices, rate structures, and possible rebates/incentives. For solar panel breakeven, it's fairly easy. Take your kWh electricity usage/purchases for the year and multiply it times your electricity rate (exclude any grid-tied fixed costs if you have any that you'd have to pay even if you made all your own power, like grid maintenance/infrastructure). Then, take the net cost of adding solar panels and divide it by that number you just calculated, which will tell you how many years to breakeven. (You can try factoring in expected electricity rate increases, but don't have to for a general idea. Also, you can add in any expected maintenance to the solar panels, like if you ever expect to replace inverters, etc outside of warranty). For me, solar panel breakeven on my setup is around 8-9 years. (Let's say solar costs me $8500 and I previously spent about $1000 on electricity purchases. 8500/1000 = 8.5 years. What you may also want to consider as part of the 'costs' is how much you'd lose on interest if you just invested the money. Also, more difficult things like how much air quality means to your health and medical expenses... Now, currently for Powerwalls, don't expect any reasonable breakeven for them. You have factors to consider like: 1) Do my electricity rates differ during the day vs at night. Electric Vehicle charging and I'm assuming Powerwalls will let you use stored energy instead of buying during peak hours (higher rates). 2) How much do you value having a battery backup when you lose power and what will it back up? (Fridge/food storage? EV charging? A/C? Computers? Etc.). It will likely take a LONG time to recoup/breakeven on a powerwall for peak vs off-peak. I'd say it's mostly, 'How much is it worth to YOU'. Maybe you run a home business, or lose power very often, etc. So it might be worth more to you than someone in a more stable grid.
Hi Robert, another fabulous episode, I am hooked! I note your Leaf could not deliver vehicle to grid, as I am about to buy a second hand one(circa 2016) what year did they introduce vehicle to grid capability on the car? Could you or one of your followers advise please.
Computers are surprisingly tolerant of bad power. Lights can actually go off completely before a computer will complain. It's actually in the ATX power supply spec - it has to be able to run the system at full power for something like 250 milliseconds with no power, and the less load the longer this will be. (A system with an overspec'd power supply and hardly any draw can easily chug along for a few seconds without power.) That's why PSUs always have a couple of physically large capacitors inside them. Normal computer UPS devices have a switchover delay around 50 ms which is enough to cause many types of lights to flicker, so a computer power supply has to be able to cope with that.
At 3:49, that is really impressive. At the Fire Service I worked in locally, it was a case of a big diesel generator, which the Technicians were responsible for, and the Chief Engineer was commonly out after if not during a power cut to coax the system to burst into life faster, or at all. The IT stuff, had battery backup, but these were primitive things, with maybe 25 minutes of power if you were lucky, they were on their way out from the minute you installed them, to when they died perhaps 4 years later if you were lucky. Dire. I think 29 seconds is the time from the mains power being disrupted, to when the generator was meant to crank up and provide emergency cover for the 999 call centre - that’s the number stuck in my head anyway. So, overall, there was a chain of: Generator - Big Battery pack (Lead Acid) - Little UPS battery per server (Uninterruptible Power Supply) - finally the Server computers in the Server ‘farm’. The problem with this is, that as when I was reconfiguring the disk drive array one night around 9pm to 2am, I just sat resigned to there being a power cut and shutting down my Fire Service career. 29 seconds, even if the genny starts up impeccably, is a long time in computer terms, and glancing at the chain of devices listed above, there’s almost bound to be a glitch/brown-out/tired battery etc. I mean it’s just gagging to go wrong. So I sweated for four hours or so as the server in question laboured to incorporate the new disk into the array, striping away to re-spread the data across the disks, and thereby give this machine a new lease of life. Without the extra storage - free space in which to operate - the server eventually would have a user shove a load of info on there, or be naughty and back-up their PC to it quietly, then that system would just ‘crunch’. We had no backups either, so I had to wing it. There’s reasons why but it came down to wearing the backup machine out and no replacement available. So, I view this with considerable interest, with a half-decent Power Supply Unit, hopefully incorporating some kind of ability to bridge a short glitch, clearly this system of yours would be superior. I have found, my own PC, will literally ‘jump’ a power gap if it’s short enough eg a fraction of a second. I mean, I don’t know quite how it does it, but I see the lights flicker, hear the permanent cooling fan drop in speed, even the monitor flicker, but if the power glitch is short, the machine keeps running. Capacitors I guess, and the coils of the PSU letting go of their built-up energy, just enough to bridge the gap. Lastly, these power failures do seem to come in episodes. IE it’s like buses, you don’t see one for ages, then it hits you...something like that! So, we had about 25 power failures a couple of years back, once every evening and eventually I set my alarm for it. No really, I set my alarm for 19:15hrs and about 20 mins after that, the power always went out for around two hours, once we got into the way of it. In other words, long story short, the provider of infrastructure, waited until the overload happened right after dinnertime, and went out to pop a spare ‘fuse’ or sacrificial copper bar, in the sub-station. Then, the power predictably came back up until after 7pm next night. Their response was slow until I called my MP about it. So literally three weeks of power cuts nightly. Oh yes, and it was only us. The entire rest of the street remained lit haha. I told them to put us on the phase everyone else was on thanks. Now, that pressure and knowledge also gee’d them up, but they wanted to explain why it couldn’t be done, to which I replied I don’t care. The frequency of this failure, led me to warn them they’d be liable for my computer equipment being damaged. The lady agent replied that there was no way the power coming off and on could damage equipment...I said, ok, you flick the power switch on your massive TV at home, on and off merrily, and see what happens. Oh, you don’t want to try that?! I assured her, there very well could be damage as the spikes and the repeated nature of the switching, was one day going to hit the right note, so to speak, and my computer or screen would give out. No, it was not likely, but I didn’t care for the reassurances from my supplier, who wouldn’t under-write such a view readily in a legal document. In fact, I suspect their contract with me probably has a clause exempting them from exactly this sort of issue! Very impressive as I say - how things have moved on. Not before time. Of course, the electricity provider could always put these in at their expense, instead of us having to do it, but that’s a whole other conversation. It’s just, if working from home is an acceptable proposition for mass numbers of staff, it strikes me it’s not up to individual consumers to fix a problem that’s really in the energy provider’s domain.
I live in Sweden and has solar and a Tesla. It’s very annoying that Tesla cant sell me the gateway and batteries for the moment. We already have 3 phase here, and about 10-13 kWh is what I need at night when the solar isn’t producing. They can’t say when it will be available either.
Great video! Please explain why doesn't every government provide subsidies, to make this a no brainer of EVERY house!! Wouldn't everyone in the government logically agree that this is the best solution for our planet? What could their counterarguments possibly be??
It takes time for the government to understand, then they have to leak the infoormation to their insider dealing hedge fund mates, who then have to maximise their trading position and get the money laundered and into the tax haven they pay their cabinet stooge to keep open .
It has been successful beyond their wildest dreams. There are a handful of energy providers out there that let you do the same thing, though not quite with the same efficiency. There is one here that tracks the wholesale price, all it would take is to suck up energy at night and discharge during the busy parts of the day. People are getting paid to charge their EVs when it goes negative (too much supply, too little demand).
why is your L2 also Neutral? Could a UK electrician please explain this? is it like he uses only the three phases but not the center point of the star? If so, why doesn't he have 400V between the phases? In central europe we have three phase power where L1/2/3 have 400V to each other and 230V to the neutral. Or is it a delta-three-phase without a true neutral? if someone could explain this, I'd be very greatful
The only time it makes sense to 'run the house from the car' is if you have excess solar production to charge the car & the home battery while simultaneously running the house. Otherwise, there is no benefit to the environment if you need to charge up the car with the grid because you've used it all up to power the house for a day or two. And with a tiny 5kW solar array (in the UK) this is unlikely.
How have you found communication between the various vendors? I'm presuming they all have their own bits and bobs that all have to work together - how compatible are they with each other? Any gotchas? Are their any emerging standards?
Hello Robert, sorry to say but your wiring looks dangerous! It seems like you could touch current leading parts. Was that done by a certified electrician?
I can't see why they can't put in a dedicated single-phase meter and connect it to the single-phase line your house was connected to before. But then again I'm not an electrician!
good to see that the handover became much quicker, i remember seeing the initial video and still feeling like certain applications like network equipment should have a UPS just in case
Two questions: Can you select the car as the primary to be charged, so if you come home to do stuff before leaving for a trip you can get max range and PW only gets charged after you leave? And how much work is it to make the car power the house during a blackout without needing to sell the power to grid first or having the car battery charge the PW which then powers the house?
You have to make sure it's wired in correctly but I believe the solar panels feed into the Powerwall through a grid-tied inverter. The Powerwall sees that power being backfed through its mains inverter output to the house, and can take the power to charge the batteries, and then let any excess continue out to the grid. So if your V2G unit was installed on the house side of the Powerwall then when it takes power from the car batteries and feeds it back to the "grid", the Powerwall would see the incoming power just the same way it does with solar panels. So this way you could use the car to run the house and charge the Powerwall during a blackout. You'd want to be careful though because in this scenario the car could easily charge itself from the Powerwall draining it, so you'd need some kind of electronics to control it all the way you wanted. I'm no expert but I would expect whatever they are using to control it all would have some kind of priority button so you could give the car priority if you were going on a long trip, as that would be a pretty common requirement.
@@Berkeloid0 I think keeping the batteries from charging each other should be the default setting. Only issue that remains is when some electronics between them might prevent them from seeing each other as a battery, especially as every cable and device between them would increase the power losses. And I think I just found a good reason to put a firewall and strong passwords on your Tesla net app, because some hacker will probably think it is great fun to destroy your PW and car battery by messing with these settings... OTOH, Tesla corporate security hunting hackers with flamethrowers sounds like a perfect setting for a future Netflix show...
@@AnalystPrime The problem is "keeping the batteries from charging each other" can't be a default because it depends on the installation. The V2G device *must* charge from the Powerwall because when grid power is available, this is where the grid power comes from. When the grid power fails, you saw in the video the Powerwall continues to provide power uninterrupted (the light didn't even flicker) so the V2G device won't notice the grid power has gone away and will keep charging only now it will be flattening the Powerwall battery instead. Likewise it can't tell if it's feeding into the grid or charging the Powerwall because electrically it's all the same, because everything is using grid-tied inverters so nothing can tell if it's feeding the grid or the Powerwall or what, it all looks the same. This is why it requires those control devices that can see the whole picture, and tell devices to charge, not charge, switch on/off or whatever depending on the overall picture.
@@Berkeloid0 Yes, but the issue is that PW has about 10kWh to spare while the EV has 50 to 100 kWh battery. PW should never try to charge the EV unless it's an emergency. OTOH, if during a blackout your solar is not working and the PW is already drained, directly powering your house from the EV battery probably works better unless you know you need to drive somewhere soon.
Isn't using a 40kW Nissan Leaf for vehicle to grid just the same as using 3 x Tesla Powerwalls at 13.8kW each. With your two powerwalls, you've already got the equivalent of 27.5kW 'vehicle' to grid.
You dont have 3 phase into every home as the standard? Where I come from even some House appliances make use if the 3 phases. Didnt know that it wasnt standard everywhere. Interesting
MrDj200 where do you come from? Understandable if you live somewhere where homes are modern and the grid is relatively new, but this is the UK where many homes were first connected almost a century ago. Most homes have a 100 amp 240 volt supply, so can draw 24kw, which is way more than is ever needed- we don't generally use electric heating, don't need aircon.
My DIY (well installed by an electrician) setup uses 2-terminal relays to switch live/neutral from the grid to my inverter. It's pulled into the NO position by a small AC transformer powered by the grid. If the grid fails the relay goes to the NC position and the inverter (which is always on) just starts powering the panel. Granted my critical load panel isn't "the whole house" but my setup can keep things like my fridge/freezer/telco running uninterrupted and it costs a heck of a lot less than a Tesla powerwall :-)
In the USA, you can not install solar, wind or powerwalls with out the auto cut switch. You will fail inspect. Also, must be a manual cutoff outside of the house.
Pat McDaniel basically the same in the U.K., the system must be designed not to backfeed in the event of a powercut. There is no requirement for an external cut off though, probably not really necessary or practical here- no power worker is going to walk around a town flipping hundreds of switches before they start work.
Great video Robert, you've really gone all out with your install! I reckon vehicle to grid could be the answer to concerns often voiced by the national grid about the issue of maintaining the balance of supply and demand. I understand that if the grid were ever to go 'out of balance' beyond the allowable range it could cause massive damage that could take weeks or months to bring back on line.
![NOSFERATU - Official Trailer [HD] - Only In Theaters December 25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nulvWqYUM8k/mqdefault.jpg)
Robert provides an update on 'the update' to his Powerwall installation. He has been busy tweaking his system to ensure instantaneous response in the advent of a blackout. He also shows us what else is going on in his garage, with an update on his Zappi, and introduction to a V2G unit, and lots of lovely statistics to show how homes and cars can be powered by solar, even in England! For easy reference through each section of this episode, see *timestamps* below. *AND* If you like this episode, you might enjoy the previous episode on National Grid's 'Green Energy Success Story': ruclips.net/video/ONp8dismI-Q/видео.html
fullychargedshow Anyone can build a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) Tesla power walls are just one of many!
@@barryamorris The tricky bit is getting it to play nice with the power grid management software controlling when the power is going back out. If a lot of houses just dumb-state it both ways, that could disrupt the local grid distribution or fry some of their equipment (and people).
Back when one house in 100,000 had surplus electricity, it just ran the meter back a bit and the grid coped with the margins -- it was statistically insignificant to the total charges & resistances (especially out in the country where the very early adopters tended to be). If you're going to have most or all houses doing the same thing in town, it could destabilize altogether.
At some point in the equation, the margin becomes the main sum, and everyone has to learn to play nice with others.
I assume from this that the Powerwalls can't emulate the V2G functionality, yet?
If there's a Powerwall connected to two phases of the three phase supply why isn't the V2G unit connected to the thrird phase?
Love the tech but could you share as to whether Powerwall prices have followed the downward trend in vehicle battery prices?
Thanks.
animist channel Smart meters measure both import and export rates. As for playing nice with the grid, you have to notify them that you have generating equipment in the first place. They balance the grid constantly by ramping generators up and down constantly! The more people that can export power, the less reliant we are on coal, and other legacy power supplies. We need far more micro generation and battery storage systems. If we do, blackouts and brownouts will become a thing of the past. Current generation methods are still unreliable, offering uneven wave form power supplies. The energy generation still has a lot to improve on.
Fully charged 😁👍🏻
Bonus points to the production team for having the scenes labeled on the timeline.
Agreed 👍🏻
It's a new feature to RUclips, love it!
yeh, Ive never seen that before! :)
Ooooooo _fancy_
😁
" I love it when problems have multiple layers".
What an amazing update Robert. Very interesting the tech you have in your home. Just a little bit a jealousy here. Not much, just a little bit. Well maybe more than a little but not a lot. OK well maybe a lot of jealousy.
Charging your LEAF at 22kW at home is extraordinary. Congratulations.
Due to your channel, I suggested my neighbour get a V2G from OVO. He loves it. We are central Bristol, so if you want to see one working, feel free to drop in. We've got Solar, heat pumps and everything here!
Thanks again for showing us what is possible in this new world of clean power production and use. I did call over a year ago to thank Robert personally. We live just over the hill from him, and have followed his lead with Solar, Eddi, Zappi, Hub, etc. Battery in the garage, with a Hyundai, Ioniq, then a Leaf 30kWh to connect into the V2G run by OVO. The strange thing is that OVO declined after a lot of head scratching to put us on the V2G trial, because we had a battery (6.3 kWh) in the system. Despite being told it was not for export to the grid, they said no, as perhaps it might export. You Robert 5 miles away, have 2 batteries, and a leaf that can’t be used, and still get onto the trial! Such is the aura of your persona! Well done, I look forward to seeing how it works. As for us we sold the leaf, its Winter performance gave us issues that caused tears, and we can’t use it for V2G. So again we follow your eg. With a Kona 64, and may be a Tesla M3. Ces’t la vie.
This looks like the second cut of this, during the first shoot Bobby touched something he shouldn't giving him a doc brown look.
Yes! 😂
Oh, come on, be nice. Everyone has a bit of a "lockdown haircut" right now.
Woke up from a nap to film that bit I guess :-)
11:04 maybe don't say "plugs straight into my Nissan Leaf... BOOM!" 💥😆
That islanding switch over is more like it! I couldn't believe it was so bad in the earlier episode and its good to hear that it was a faulty timing set up.
Glad I saw this as i honestly was turned off the Power Wall a lot from your first video which seemed to show that the whole house would die for 20secs and then boot back up. I do wish you'd gone into more detail on what actually was changed to make such a big difference in the cutover time
We had the first powercut which has happened when we were home. The first we knew of it was with a neighbour coming round and asking us if we had power - which we did. The Powerwall was happily running the house and itself being charged from our PV panels. Brilliant!
Some nice graphs there! Especially the one that shows that Robert gets up just before 8am and proceeds to turn everything on, before midday!
I love Fully Charged. But please stop abbreviating kWh to kW. Don't add to the confusion, you guys should have it down by now.
Derek Hodge is that you Bjorn Nyland 😝
Energy and power
Yes, I'm fed up with people saying KW when they mean KWh.
I purchased the Zappi’s also and I’ve had nothing but trouble with them. I’m now on my 3rd one due to failures of the units. They have a quality problem I think...
Fuse board in garage made interesting. Only Robert could do that.
Nice setup, Robert. Thanks for the tour.
Far more impressed with the gateway this time! :D
11:43 I can only hear: "One, we don't have a power source for the lasers; and two, we don't have any lasers."
Switch: Cat has evolved laser eyes now.
We put our system to the test last week. I live near Philadelphia, PA and we had a major storm come through. We were off the grid for 62 hours 18 minutes but we were never out of power. Between the batteries and the solar we could do pretty much anything we wanted. I only have one issue with the Powerwalls, the bridge that allows it to power the house and use the solar only comes in a 200amp version, we have 400amp service to the house so we did have to decide what would remain powered and what would not. I think if they had a bridge that could handle our entire house I would have gotten a 3rd Powerwall to allow us to use the AC.
The best part about the Powerwall is that, unlike a generator, the batteries are used everyday to help power the house.
I Love the possibilities you’re exploring. I can’t wait to upgrade our 30 year old roof in the SF Bay Area to accommodate some sun power.
I remember being disappointed and seeing the embarrassed look on the engineer's face when they turned the power off and it took a few seconds for the battery power to kick in, in a previous video. I'm so glad this is now working like an uninterruptible power supply. If I didn't rent and could have all this fun stuff installed, I'd love to do so! Must be lots of fun knowing that you're producing your own energy :) Thanks Kryten for this update!
Very exciting! Great video as always!
Love these videos. Maybe more than the car reviews. Would be awesome for a really technical insight into these.
Going to do battle with EDF in France this week. They keep pestering me to put solar on my roof, but have been reluctant to let you store it and do V2G, I’ll let you know if they have changed their minds yet!
Libellula Washington My agreement with the French Grid operator says I cannot have storage. No big problem for me as my solar is there primarily to power the pool pumps and heat my water.
Store the solar and use the grid as a generator, don't export to the grid. If everyone did this the grid would be stable and they could not jack up your cost to buy, just because you have solar.
@@wrong-waygo-back9355 if everyone did that, the grid would become unsustainable, economicomically.
Yourd be self sustaining, not profitable anymore, can't have that.
V2G would be a stop-gap measure to large scale decentralized grid storage. Paid for by you, the customer of your mode of transportation.
It would flatten the curve for gas-powrplants to ramp up/down and softening the load on the grid as a whole.
You are really fully charged :D
Seeing this makes me want to have some similar.
Thank you. Looking forward to the car to grid. If possible, please also share the diagram of your 3-phase writing at the garage entrance. Guess: black cable to the fuse, to the meter to the mains.. From there to the tails (this is where it appears confusing). Thank you
Had my powerwall for a few months now and love it. Got it to be self sufficient and to handle power outages (which we tend to have due to high winds and fire danger when they shut off the power proactively). I love the security it provides me. Barely notice a flicker of the lights when we do lose power. I do only have it set non-backup activities for during our peak power hours (4pm-9pm) though so that the battery will last as long as possible (cycles).
Curious about what your power company pays you for power you pump back into the grid vs. what you pay for power delivered. One of the big misconceptions here (Northern California) with V2G is that people think the power company is going to pay them the retail price of power they pump into the grid. But they only get the average wholesale price (approx $0.03/kWh) vs the retail price ($0.09/kWh for lowest tier price and up to $0.45/kWh for highest tier price based on ToD and usage). And even the highest marginal retail price during the hottest days is not enough to justify the V2G expense of recharging from the grid. I only see V2G as useful V2H, if you don't have a powerwall installed.
Also, over here in NorCal, the clean power is during the day due to such a high percentage of solar, and the dirty power is during the evening/night time. Of course, we do drive on the other side of the road. :D
There are a number of things on my 'Lottery win Bucket List', and this sort of setup is one of them ... ! :)
Wot no signature on the signature power wall? Good to see the mahooossive improvement in the cut-in time on the system.
Rick Oz worth more as a Red Dwarf signature edition.
Thanks for the video! I suspect this will be the future as it also can be used as a stabilizer for the public electrica gridl and helps to make it more resiliant. If you are interested in professional electrical power storage at home level you should also check out E3DC.
Looking forward to Tesla V2G capability.
Keep thinking about my LR RWD M3 sitting in the garage is the equivalent of more than five Powerwalls.
Fascinated by this as I'd like to get my old cottage ready for its first electric car, but as the parking space is in a field opposite the property I may have to dig up the road and install a three phase power supply, junction box, meter etc outdoors in a cabinet and there's precious little room let alone for a v2g and gateway box. Sounds complex and expensive. Who helps plan such an installation, Bobby? Who do I contact?
Spot the Kryten walk! 😅
Robert, do you already make a bit of money from supplying the grid? And can your setup make money taking energy when the price goes negative? So many questions! 😬
It's a shame smart meter support for three phase isn't very good. We should really be pushing for all new houses to be three phase. It makes it a lot easier from a DNO perspective to add solar and batteries. It also enables the transition from gas boilers to heat pumps, and faster EV charging.
Yes, and also really crucial for commercial applications. V2G will work fabulously with commercial vehicles that are used during the workday and then parked up for the evening. Any remaining juice in the batteries can be fed into the grid during the evening peak, before the vehicles are recharged in the early hours of the morning, ready for the next day.
Yup, and where there is a chance that 250 volts will give you a really bad day, but one you will remember, if you short out across 2 of those phases and get 415 volts going through you, YOU may not be aware of it, (being dead), your nearest and dearest will. And can drink to your memory every year.
If 3 phase were to be rolled out to domestic dwellings, the occupants need to be far more aware about the dangers than they are at present. Where half the population can not even wire a plug!
but then you would need more substations and transformers if you were to encourage that. Plus relaying all the distribution cables. I dont understand how having three phase makes it easier?
@@pauldawson-plincke249 if you need the power 50% more cable gives you 300% more power.
@@pauldawson-plincke249 Three phase is already in the street, it's just the cable to each house that's different. The phases must remain fairly balanced, so houses in the same street tend to go on alternate phases.
I like that 11pm guy, more of him turning things off and on again please
Design for most new tech seems to be an afterthought. Compare the Ovo and Zappi systems to the simplicity and clean design of the Tesla boxes. Sometimes no matter how good your tech is, most will judge a book by its cover.
I envy you. I'm looking to buy a similar system with one difference - additional wind turbine. I hope to stay green even in winter, when it's less sunny, but more windy:) Now I have to decide whether it's better to have a small one in my backyard or co-own a big one.
Yeah I get told I’m sad enough by family to have all those apps giving me live information. 😁 I’d be endlessly fascinated.
They're just jealous because you can understand it all
You are right. I remember when I first got my PV inverter - hours of time wasted on monitoring the output.
Unfortunately a lot of nighttime power is supported by coal here, making the nighttime use dirtier than during the day - however this is getting better as more wind and other storage capacity comes into play.
The biggest problem that I see with using the excess power to charge the car rather than feeding the grid is that (outside of COVID-19 restrictions) my car is generally not at home during the day as I’m out at work or whatever, and the car needs to be charged at night when there isn’t any solar. Similarly this means that I need to use grid power at night.
Hopefully we will start to see the price for home batteries drop substantially such that having a 100kWh home battery is cost effective. This would be enough to store my excess power and charge the car without impacting the house supply, and would also allow the house to run for longer if there are a few really bad days for generating in a row.
For what it’s worth though, after a big storm here in February (summer time remember), the grid was taken down for 1.5 days. Some neighbours lost power for a week. Our place just kept running, with solar hot water etc, and the only real impact was no internet (cables down) and no car charging at home.
Something else worth noting is that the ‘self powered’ graph that Robert was showing excludes any power provided to the grid. It’s really showing how much you house has been independent and not the raw numbers generated. For example, if my house draws 2kWh from the grid and consumes 10kWh then it’ll show as 80% self powered, even if the solar generates 30kWh and puts 20kWh of that into the grid.
As a final word, my place would actually do a lot better in winter if the winter solstice didn’t put the sun below the tree level of some enormous 25-30m gum trees that shade the roof. Don’t underestimate the effect of shading in winter.
Very informative! Thanks. Of note: afaik in the US all houses have three phase power.
US homes do not routinely have 3 phase power.
In Germany 3 phase is standard for houses, however in bigger houses for a couple of families they don't have 3 phase in every single flat.
In rural areas we have 43 kw of maximum power out of the grid, per one family house.
I had a similar issue with my mCHP (micro combined heat and power) system where I couldn’t have it running during a power cut to avoid dumping excess back to the grid... ironic as the tech was designed specifically for that purpose....
The Tesla switch is fast indeed! A colleague of mine more than a decade ago already had a switch between grid and home battery, but it had simple contactors and time relays. When power went out, it would pull a large contactor (normally closed contacts) disconnecting the house from mains. When all three phases were back and continuously on for more than 20 min, it would switch off the contactor and connect back to mains. It worked well, but there was a noticeable gap between switching in power out situation. He did have UPS setup for computers etc, so they didn't notice it. You noticed lights go out and then back on (maybe half a second delay)
EWheeler Finland Think solid state switching. To get the change over correct, there will always be a millisecond gap, to ensure you disconnect from one, and switch to the other.
Great video!!
A Nicola Badger with a Fuel cell may be a answer for V2G or V2Home , if you can fill up your car from a hydrogen station and let the vehicle in times of shortage jump in and replenish your Tesla Powerwall units and provide electricity during the night , that might be an answer.Also on the IoT-front your appliances could sync with your energy supply and give you a heads up when to load your dish-washer or washing machine .
I'm still not too keen on V2G. The only reason I'd ever have an electric car discharge would be to provide backup power to the house. As for V1G, I'm thinking it should become the default way of recharging plug-in vehicles, if not mandatory.
Excellent
Robert for the Vehicle to Grid why can’t you use your Tesla model 3 instead of the the leaf ? Great set up, explanation and demo of the app by the way.
Tesla currently do not support V2G, neither does the CCS standard, only Chadamo for high power bidirectional charging.
while the tesla powerwall was still being delayed, I worked on similar project at University.
extremely high transient switching currents on the DC side when trying to have instantaneous switchover when blackout on grid occured. Nearly instant but we couldn't figure out in time how to suppress the high transient currents
I love how passionate you are, to have invested this much in this, but I'm very curious how this works out financially. Will there be a break even? Are you just happy accepting the loss?
Instantaneous switching, wonderful. And the three phase? Is it so you can export big power back to the grid?
I'll need to go back to the 1st update and edit my comment about the long switching time.
If you import or export too much power on only one phase it imbalances the grid (reduces efficiency and can shorten the lifespan of generators due to vibration). So in Robert's situation they wanted his feed in to be balanced across the three phases, which also means they can triple the amount of power he can feed in without having to install any more wires out in the street (just the extra ones from the street to Robert's garage). As he said in the video, this requirement is mostly due to him being at the end of a small capacity part of the grid.
How quickly can it respond then? I saw the briefest of flickers, but will that reset your microwave clock / turn off your tv, computer, and other appliances or is it fast enough for them to keep running?
🤔 29kwh for a day on a 3.6kw array! Who installed your system...Carlsberg?😉
I have noticed a disturbing trend. The more expensive and capable your camera is, the lower framerate is used.
24fps is not a artistic choice, it is an ancient technical and cost limitation which is long been overpassed, when even phones can record 4K@60fps continous (in very good quality, IF you provide strong lighting). High resulutions become useless, if video is choppy and filled with motionblur, which hides the details.
Robert, What isolation switch/Gateway do I need if I have battery storage that isn't a TESLA wall and want Power-Cut. Can you recommend where to get them and a make. Thank you
That LED wouldn't be a good indicator of a power cut. The capacitors were probably still charged between switchover. Better to have used a tungsten globe fed directly from AC.
This car to grid thing makes no sense to me. You want to keep your car fully charged at all times if you are actually using it. Why would you want to discharge it during daytime or any time, for that matter?
Any updates on the Honda EV Sport? Such an awesome looking car.
"amazing energy company called Ovo" - I know a good few of their former employees who'd beg to differ!
What did they do wrong?
Why would you want to be grid independant?
Rather that putting it back on the grid when demand is high (and dirty)
Seems way better ecologically speaking.
Am i missing something?
It would be great if we could review those other boxes on your garage wall, Robert.
I have a QUESTION? In my country the infrastructure cannot accept consumer made electricity. So can I use the Tesla system as a back up only, because the power cuts here are pretty enormous.
Checkout battery powered studio lighting by PixaPro, they last all day and night on 1 charge.
I'd love to have the problems Robert has. Don't get me wrong I've got my own solar and batteries and off street parking for my soon to be here Corsa-e but surely I can be a bit jealous.
Filming the Corsa-e review right now.
Great video! Solar panels, lithium batteries, electric vehicles and now V2G, right now I feel envy. And you live in UK imagine the potential of your installation in Spain ...
Or Australia. We are looking at a daily average of 23kWh from a 6.5kW system in winter, close to 40 in summer.
I honestly think Tesla is missing a trick here with v2g. Do we want to rely on it for backbone storage? Probably not, but it can be the peaking output so we don't double up on the batteries required. And you usually need peaking output when supply charges are high, so better for those becoming an occasional temporary supply.
Great vid - thanks! Have you done the "break even" maths? i.e. Taking the amount everything cost to set up vs how much electricity cost saved?
Three phase supply, trench dug, two Powerwalls, huge solar array, installation etc... I'm going to guess north of £40k.
Large UK home likely £2k per year plus the cars, let's say 20k miles of driving at 250Wh per mile is 5,000kWh, maybe another £1k. But the solar only works half of the year so let's say it saves £1,500 per year. By my calculations it would take ~25 years to pay itself back.
If he can get the V2G working, I'm guessing that's another £2k but it could earn £ks back, so who knows.
Most solar plus battery is now around the 16 to 20k region. The first battery came from a payment protection claim and that is on the video. The second battery came for "free" but involved a lot of expense for the three phase and extras. All in all with the zappi as well I think Bobby has spent about 15k on the whole setup of batteries and solar. If you factor in the bargain price and he is travelling most of the time using a leaf or the Tesla plus the off set cost of not buying fuel for hot water or the cars, the pay back is closer to 8 to 10 years.
It's definitely still at the stage where doing it to save money is the wrong reason. Do it because it's interesting to you, or you like the safety of having power if the grid goes down, but don't do it to save money. That day is getting closer but it's not here yet.
Once V2G comes in then there's a real chance of saving money, but it only works out because you already have the batteries in the car, and you already have the car to use as a car. If you had to buy the batteries separately because you don't have an EV (e.g. a bunch of Powerwalls) then it still won't be economical for a while.
Would be great to get an idea of cost for these things.
I had the same idea. Checked on Tesla website and they are quoting 2 x powerwalls + 5kW solar panels for €17000.
You can get a BYD 10 kwh LFP for around 5k + VAT, it works with a hybrid inverter (a combo inverter for solar panels and a battery). The solar + inverter costs around 700 to 750 € per kWP for the material, installation costs depends on the house (which roof material, height, etc).
The solar itself has become relatively inexpensive the last years, storages have to become cheaper in future.
I would also love to know the cost and when this breaks even. "It all depends" is not a good answer. This is a practical application in a not-so-sunny country with an electric car and stuff so it would be awesome to have a real life example in real life conditions. Of course, if I am from Brazil I would not take this and say "yeah, it will be the same". But those solar thingies are always so hypothetical "yeah, if the sun shines so and so and this and that and the roof..." Just give me the numbers from your experience, I can then ask locally around for quotes.
@@FenixBG "It all depends" IS unfortunately most common. Every electrical company has different prices, rate structures, and possible rebates/incentives.
For solar panel breakeven, it's fairly easy. Take your kWh electricity usage/purchases for the year and multiply it times your electricity rate (exclude any grid-tied fixed costs if you have any that you'd have to pay even if you made all your own power, like grid maintenance/infrastructure). Then, take the net cost of adding solar panels and divide it by that number you just calculated, which will tell you how many years to breakeven. (You can try factoring in expected electricity rate increases, but don't have to for a general idea. Also, you can add in any expected maintenance to the solar panels, like if you ever expect to replace inverters, etc outside of warranty).
For me, solar panel breakeven on my setup is around 8-9 years. (Let's say solar costs me $8500 and I previously spent about $1000 on electricity purchases. 8500/1000 = 8.5 years.
What you may also want to consider as part of the 'costs' is how much you'd lose on interest if you just invested the money. Also, more difficult things like how much air quality means to your health and medical expenses...
Now, currently for Powerwalls, don't expect any reasonable breakeven for them. You have factors to consider like: 1) Do my electricity rates differ during the day vs at night. Electric Vehicle charging and I'm assuming Powerwalls will let you use stored energy instead of buying during peak hours (higher rates). 2) How much do you value having a battery backup when you lose power and what will it back up? (Fridge/food storage? EV charging? A/C? Computers? Etc.). It will likely take a LONG time to recoup/breakeven on a powerwall for peak vs off-peak. I'd say it's mostly, 'How much is it worth to YOU'. Maybe you run a home business, or lose power very often, etc. So it might be worth more to you than someone in a more stable grid.
Nice video - surprised that in the winter you weren't charging your batteries overnight using something like Octopus Go?
Hi Robert, another fabulous episode, I am hooked! I note your Leaf could not deliver vehicle to grid, as I am about to buy a second hand one(circa 2016) what year did they introduce vehicle to grid capability on the car? Could you or one of your followers advise please.
30kwh and above (currently 40kwh + 60 kwh) versions only. Not the 24kwh ones which I think you could still get as a 2016 model...
How fast can you charge the car from the powerwall? Should be really high!
I would really live to know what was tweaked for the gateway to react so quickly.
4:48 need to power wash them wheel arch liners!
"Ring-a-ding ring the ding ding bell thing" - Bobby
You have one power cut on average every month? Battery really makes sense then. I'm guessing the switch is fast enough that computers don't notice?
Computers are surprisingly tolerant of bad power. Lights can actually go off completely before a computer will complain. It's actually in the ATX power supply spec - it has to be able to run the system at full power for something like 250 milliseconds with no power, and the less load the longer this will be. (A system with an overspec'd power supply and hardly any draw can easily chug along for a few seconds without power.) That's why PSUs always have a couple of physically large capacitors inside them. Normal computer UPS devices have a switchover delay around 50 ms which is enough to cause many types of lights to flicker, so a computer power supply has to be able to cope with that.
At 3:49, that is really impressive. At the Fire Service I worked in locally, it was a case of a big diesel generator, which the Technicians were responsible for, and the Chief Engineer was commonly out after if not during a power cut to coax the system to burst into life faster, or at all. The IT stuff, had battery backup, but these were primitive things, with maybe 25 minutes of power if you were lucky, they were on their way out from the minute you installed them, to when they died perhaps 4 years later if you were lucky. Dire. I think 29 seconds is the time from the mains power being disrupted, to when the generator was meant to crank up and provide emergency cover for the 999 call centre - that’s the number stuck in my head anyway. So, overall, there was a chain of: Generator - Big Battery pack (Lead Acid) - Little UPS battery per server (Uninterruptible Power Supply) - finally the Server computers in the Server ‘farm’.
The problem with this is, that as when I was reconfiguring the disk drive array one night around 9pm to 2am, I just sat resigned to there being a power cut and shutting down my Fire Service career. 29 seconds, even if the genny starts up impeccably, is a long time in computer terms, and glancing at the chain of devices listed above, there’s almost bound to be a glitch/brown-out/tired battery etc. I mean it’s just gagging to go wrong.
So I sweated for four hours or so as the server in question laboured to incorporate the new disk into the array, striping away to re-spread the data across the disks, and thereby give this machine a new lease of life. Without the extra storage - free space in which to operate - the server eventually would have a user shove a load of info on there, or be naughty and back-up their PC to it quietly, then that system would just ‘crunch’. We had no backups either, so I had to wing it. There’s reasons why but it came down to wearing the backup machine out and no replacement available.
So, I view this with considerable interest, with a half-decent Power Supply Unit, hopefully incorporating some kind of ability to bridge a short glitch, clearly this system of yours would be superior. I have found, my own PC, will literally ‘jump’ a power gap if it’s short enough eg a fraction of a second. I mean, I don’t know quite how it does it, but I see the lights flicker, hear the permanent cooling fan drop in speed, even the monitor flicker, but if the power glitch is short, the machine keeps running. Capacitors I guess, and the coils of the PSU letting go of their built-up energy, just enough to bridge the gap.
Lastly, these power failures do seem to come in episodes. IE it’s like buses, you don’t see one for ages, then it hits you...something like that! So, we had about 25 power failures a couple of years back, once every evening and eventually I set my alarm for it. No really, I set my alarm for 19:15hrs and about 20 mins after that, the power always went out for around two hours, once we got into the way of it. In other words, long story short, the provider of infrastructure, waited until the overload happened right after dinnertime, and went out to pop a spare ‘fuse’ or sacrificial copper bar, in the sub-station. Then, the power predictably came back up until after 7pm next night. Their response was slow until I called my MP about it.
So literally three weeks of power cuts nightly. Oh yes, and it was only us. The entire rest of the street remained lit haha. I told them to put us on the phase everyone else was on thanks. Now, that pressure and knowledge also gee’d them up, but they wanted to explain why it couldn’t be done, to which I replied I don’t care.
The frequency of this failure, led me to warn them they’d be liable for my computer equipment being damaged. The lady agent replied that there was no way the power coming off and on could damage equipment...I said, ok, you flick the power switch on your massive TV at home, on and off merrily, and see what happens. Oh, you don’t want to try that?! I assured her, there very well could be damage as the spikes and the repeated nature of the switching, was one day going to hit the right note, so to speak, and my computer or screen would give out. No, it was not likely, but I didn’t care for the reassurances from my supplier, who wouldn’t under-write such a view readily in a legal document. In fact, I suspect their contract with me probably has a clause exempting them from exactly this sort of issue!
Very impressive as I say - how things have moved on. Not before time. Of course, the electricity provider could always put these in at their expense, instead of us having to do it, but that’s a whole other conversation. It’s just, if working from home is an acceptable proposition for mass numbers of staff, it strikes me it’s not up to individual consumers to fix a problem that’s really in the energy provider’s domain.
I live in Sweden and has solar and a Tesla. It’s very annoying that Tesla cant sell me the gateway and batteries for the moment. We already have 3 phase here, and about 10-13 kWh is what I need at night when the solar isn’t producing. They can’t say when it will be available either.
Brilliant episode. I love these sort of shows. It's a such an interesting topic. Many more like it please
How can I integrate this into my 2 bed mid-terrace house and my tesla 3.
Great video! Please explain why doesn't every government provide subsidies, to make this a no brainer of EVERY house!! Wouldn't everyone in the government logically agree that this is the best solution for our planet? What could their counterarguments possibly be??
It takes time for the government to understand, then they have to leak the infoormation to their insider dealing hedge fund mates, who then have to maximise their trading position and get the money laundered and into the tax haven they pay their cabinet stooge to keep open .
On the 'now you know' channel they had a bit where the tesla battery was being paid to take charge..and later, paid again to discharge. Bonkers 🤯
It has been successful beyond their wildest dreams. There are a handful of energy providers out there that let you do the same thing, though not quite with the same efficiency.
There is one here that tracks the wholesale price, all it would take is to suck up energy at night and discharge during the busy parts of the day. People are getting paid to charge their EVs when it goes negative (too much supply, too little demand).
how much did you pay how long will it last there must be a better answer smaller separate circuits rather than one big system
6:24, geez, I thought this was a family show.
why is your L2 also Neutral? Could a UK electrician please explain this?
is it like he uses only the three phases but not the center point of the star? If so, why doesn't he have 400V between the phases? In central europe we have three phase power where L1/2/3 have 400V to each other and 230V to the neutral.
Or is it a delta-three-phase without a true neutral?
if someone could explain this, I'd be very greatful
The only time it makes sense to 'run the house from the car' is if you have excess solar production to charge the car & the home battery while simultaneously running the house. Otherwise, there is no benefit to the environment if you need to charge up the car with the grid because you've used it all up to power the house for a day or two. And with a tiny 5kW solar array (in the UK) this is unlikely.
Happy to be a RUclips member with content like this. We need someone to go first. I’m glad you’re leading the way. Thank you.
My inner sparky is drooling. I have massive wall envy, Robert!
Is it me or is he giving off more 'Kryten' vibes than usual?
How much does an installation like this cost?
You are truly fully charged
How have you found communication between the various vendors?
I'm presuming they all have their own bits and bobs that all have to work together - how compatible are they with each other? Any gotchas?
Are their any emerging standards?
"Ring the ding ding bell thing" Love it. That should be the new catch cry.
Hello Robert,
sorry to say but your wiring looks dangerous!
It seems like you could touch current leading parts.
Was that done by a certified electrician?
I can't see why they can't put in a dedicated single-phase meter and connect it to the single-phase line your house was connected to before. But then again I'm not an electrician!
good to see that the handover became much quicker, i remember seeing the initial video and still feeling like certain applications like network equipment should have a UPS just in case
Two questions: Can you select the car as the primary to be charged, so if you come home to do stuff before leaving for a trip you can get max range and PW only gets charged after you leave?
And how much work is it to make the car power the house during a blackout without needing to sell the power to grid first or having the car battery charge the PW which then powers the house?
You have to make sure it's wired in correctly but I believe the solar panels feed into the Powerwall through a grid-tied inverter. The Powerwall sees that power being backfed through its mains inverter output to the house, and can take the power to charge the batteries, and then let any excess continue out to the grid. So if your V2G unit was installed on the house side of the Powerwall then when it takes power from the car batteries and feeds it back to the "grid", the Powerwall would see the incoming power just the same way it does with solar panels. So this way you could use the car to run the house and charge the Powerwall during a blackout. You'd want to be careful though because in this scenario the car could easily charge itself from the Powerwall draining it, so you'd need some kind of electronics to control it all the way you wanted.
I'm no expert but I would expect whatever they are using to control it all would have some kind of priority button so you could give the car priority if you were going on a long trip, as that would be a pretty common requirement.
@@Berkeloid0 I think keeping the batteries from charging each other should be the default setting. Only issue that remains is when some electronics between them might prevent them from seeing each other as a battery, especially as every cable and device between them would increase the power losses.
And I think I just found a good reason to put a firewall and strong passwords on your Tesla net app, because some hacker will probably think it is great fun to destroy your PW and car battery by messing with these settings... OTOH, Tesla corporate security hunting hackers with flamethrowers sounds like a perfect setting for a future Netflix show...
@@AnalystPrime The problem is "keeping the batteries from charging each other" can't be a default because it depends on the installation. The V2G device *must* charge from the Powerwall because when grid power is available, this is where the grid power comes from. When the grid power fails, you saw in the video the Powerwall continues to provide power uninterrupted (the light didn't even flicker) so the V2G device won't notice the grid power has gone away and will keep charging only now it will be flattening the Powerwall battery instead. Likewise it can't tell if it's feeding into the grid or charging the Powerwall because electrically it's all the same, because everything is using grid-tied inverters so nothing can tell if it's feeding the grid or the Powerwall or what, it all looks the same.
This is why it requires those control devices that can see the whole picture, and tell devices to charge, not charge, switch on/off or whatever depending on the overall picture.
@@Berkeloid0 Yes, but the issue is that PW has about 10kWh to spare while the EV has 50 to 100 kWh battery. PW should never try to charge the EV unless it's an emergency.
OTOH, if during a blackout your solar is not working and the PW is already drained, directly powering your house from the EV battery probably works better unless you know you need to drive somewhere soon.
So I guess the V2G will have to connect to the switch to go back to what you said at the start if there's a power cut
Isn't using a 40kW Nissan Leaf for vehicle to grid just the same as using 3 x Tesla Powerwalls at 13.8kW each. With your two powerwalls, you've already got the equivalent of 27.5kW 'vehicle' to grid.
8:40 57% taken from the grid because March is cloudy?
You dont have 3 phase into every home as the standard? Where I come from even some House appliances make use if the 3 phases. Didnt know that it wasnt standard everywhere. Interesting
MrDj200 where do you come from? Understandable if you live somewhere where homes are modern and the grid is relatively new, but this is the UK where many homes were first connected almost a century ago. Most homes have a 100 amp 240 volt supply, so can draw 24kw, which is way more than is ever needed- we don't generally use electric heating, don't need aircon.
My DIY (well installed by an electrician) setup uses 2-terminal relays to switch live/neutral from the grid to my inverter. It's pulled into the NO position by a small AC transformer powered by the grid. If the grid fails the relay goes to the NC position and the inverter (which is always on) just starts powering the panel. Granted my critical load panel isn't "the whole house" but my setup can keep things like my fridge/freezer/telco running uninterrupted and it costs a heck of a lot less than a Tesla powerwall :-)
In the USA, you can not install solar, wind or powerwalls with out the auto cut switch. You will fail inspect. Also, must be a manual cutoff outside of the house.
Pat McDaniel basically the same in the U.K., the system must be designed not to backfeed in the event of a powercut. There is no requirement for an external cut off though, probably not really necessary or practical here- no power worker is going to walk around a town flipping hundreds of switches before they start work.
Great video Robert, you've really gone all out with your install!
I reckon vehicle to grid could be the answer to concerns often voiced by the national grid about the issue of maintaining the balance of supply and demand. I understand that if the grid were ever to go 'out of balance' beyond the allowable range it could cause massive damage that could take weeks or months to bring back on line.