DHC-3 Turbine Otter N725TH Crash 4 Sept 2022
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- Опубликовано: 5 авг 2024
- Update13 Sept- they dound the wreckage under water.
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My brother flew for this company... he told me they were always VERY meticulous when it came to rinsing down the plane to ensure salt water didn't cause corrosion. I hope we're able to get some answers here as to what happened. I appreciate your willingness to say "I don't know" instead of jumping straight to a conclusion and trippling down on it.
I was coming down here to say the same thing re: admitting when he doesn't know. I'm so tired of channels that have pet theories they won't let go of and/or spend more time bashing the investigating agencies than educating the aviation community and fans.
That is one of the things I also really appreciate about Juan. Stating the possibilities without needing to jump to a final conclusion is a sign of rational, intelligent reasoning. The people who immediately insist they know what happened in these accidents are chasing ego instead of scientific process.
Brownie has always held the fact that just the facts, no guessing.
just tried watching Gryders video on this.....had to stop...
everybody loves to bash on dan g. i'd say it is a pretty rational and intelligent analysis to look at 3 prior accidents, and then, ask youself, how does an airplane, buzzing along in level flight, in a cruise, suddenly end up pitched out of control, and end up nosed into the surface beneath them. elevator/tail failure ... that's how.
Juan, it's always so kind and generous of you to make these reports and share your precious time and invaluable experience with all of us. Thank you for all of it and for your willingness to show up to life and meet all of this as it is. I can't say I'm a passenger that rests easy in flight, but I can say that having a pilot and person like you at the controls would be very comforting.
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. You're the best Juan!
I have flown these aircraft for over 30 years and have over 10,000 hours on type. All of the fatigue issues are well know and as long as they are properly maintained it is not an issue. I am very fortunate the company I work for regularly rebuilds, sometimes down to components our aircraft. I suspect the screw jack in the horizontal stab may have played and issue, just a guess but if the trim(screw)jack fails it has led to severe pitch oscillations. A very lucky pilot I know had this happen and miraculously landed at the bottom of an oscillation. A runaway trim due to a worn or loose jack is interesting but nothing a trained pilot can’t handle, a stripped screw jack is another story! I hope they find a definitive answer but they seldom do. My condolences to the pilot and passengers. Northwest Seaplanes is a very reputable company and my thoughts are with them
Alaska Airlines failure to frequently lube the jack screw mechanism. Changed maint. periodicity to save money. Didn't turn out well.
@@orthopraxis235 The horizontal stab screwjack is the most potentially terrifying airframe component.
@@orthopraxis235 Yes, a very stoopid and reckless "savings" that would save them a few pennies in grease and little time in inspections... Too sad.
Reminds me of the Florida Everglades crash.
Kenmore Air is the best operator of this class of aircraft. I have been a passenger, and was impressed with the skill and professional excellence.
I worked as a Stress Analyst 50 to 60 years ago at Gas Turbine manufacturing companies during the Discovery of Low Cycle Fatigue. This fatigue failure looks like a classic LCF crack, propagating over a considerable time of operation, but not detected by visual inspection of the components. 50 years ago we used Zyglo (fluorescent particles) or Magnaflux (magnetic particles)to detect these types of cracks. There must be much better methods available today. What a shame this had to happen.
I remember Zyglo and Magnaflux.
Jason was a good pilot and has flown that plane ever since NWSeaplane picked it up.
It usually flew from Renton to Hackie Lodge, there is a lot of videos of him flying it a few years ago.
One of the true professionals left. Thanks for being who you are Juan.
@juanbrown: close friends were on this flight. Thank you for the review. I was hoping you would cover it as your insight is priceless and has been very easy to understand. Tragic and heart-breaking. Thank you for all your coverages. See you there!
❤
Thanks Juan, outstanding work as usual. Safe flying today. Always good to be heading home for a break.
I just did a trip on a Twin Otter from Glasgow to Barra in the outer Hebrides in Scotland. Barra is the only commercial airport in the world where the aircraft land on the beach. It did actually cross my mind about the issues the seawater, and sand could have on the airframe.
Thanks for such a thorough "field report". My uncle and cousin flew/fly for Kenmore Air and Alaska here in the Puget Sound area. Thanks for always producing a thorough amount of facts and educating us the audience without jumping to conclusions as most of the news outlets do.
Thanks, Juan. My sister's old boss from San Diego was onboard this aircraft. I appreciate your insight and research into it. BTW I just got home from my commute. It's now 0153 hrs.
Juan you are always so kind in your reporting
Thanks Juan. Very good overview and possible explanation. I appreciate you not jumping to a hard conclusion.
Dan Gryder (Probable Cause) currently suspects horizontal stabilizer and/or elevator break-up/break-off after researching documentation of two or three failures of the same vintage Otter, including one that is very close to the current crash plane’s serial number. Dan is now taking down his videos after about a week so watch it while you can.
aka Dan Gryder (Jump to Conclusion)
@@coldlakealta4043 and right 90% of the time
Great information, and breakdown of this accident as always Juan!
Just want to say am extremely grateful for your videos.
JB, your discretion is hugely valued. Your reporting is tactful and appreciated within the international community of aviation. Conclusions should not be jumped to as this misguided impulse can solve few problems. We all hope for a safer flying environment. We all mourn every loss equally. It could be us. Fly safe everyone. Salute
Aviation reporting like this is invaluable. Thank you for the great content Juan.
Juan...I owned and flew a 1955 Cessna 180 taildragger for about 25 years. Most of my time was on the west coast and the airplane was hangered. I moved to Houston and the airplane was hangered there. I kept it as pristine as money could buy. At the annual I insisted on checking the strut attachment points and the jackscrews etc in the elevator. In 2021 I decided to sell it. It was/is such a desirable airplane it went quickly. A big part of my decision to sell was how much metal fatigue can an airplane actually handle. All metal will break in time given enough cycles of flex. I had been in a few rotors in the Sierra's and lots of rough IFR weather. I keep up with the new owner and he is having a blast with the airplane, but at some point, we need to recognize there are hidden stress/corrosion points we cannot find with dutiful annuals. Mine was treated with corrosion x at every annual. RIP for those on the Otter. I doubt at low altitude and sudden loss of altitude it was a pilot issue. Thanks for what you do.
Not if but when?
Juan,
Thank you for these reports - and have a safe flight home!
Paul (in MA)
ps The drought in New England may be improving as western/southern New England just received between 2 and 11! (flooding in RI) inches of rain in the last 48-72 hours. Eastern most MA - including Boston area/Cape Cod got very little rain so those areas are still very dry. Remarkably Quabbin and Wachusett reservoirs both at about 90 percent as of 1 Sept.
That Otter was the last build in 1967 (#466) immatriculated CF-VDQ operated and owned by Larentian Air Services from 1967-1977 in Schefferville , province of Quebec , Canada..Very sad for all famillies involved in that tragedy …
Thanks Juan. Always enjoy your videos.
My mother depended on this type of smaller aviation for years in Alaska and it is vital for our nation and I appreciate the efforts to keep things safe !
I've been curious to know your take on this one. This happened in my area. Very sad. :( I appreciate your respectful and informational videos, Juan. Safe travels home!
Neville Shute's "No Highway" came to my mind. Condolences to all friends and families. RIP passengers and pilot.
This is heartbreaking. I remember the seaplanes when I would visit Lopez and the other San Juan islands.
My deepest condolences to all families involved. My Prayer is that there are answers soon and some closure.
Thank you again Juan for your kind, non-sensational report.
Thank you JB for this report. 🙏 RIP ❤
TY good sir, you're very appreciated by the whole community.
Juan, enjoy your time with the family!
Thanks for the coverage and insight .Hope you make it home on time.
Awful tragedy. May God comfort the families of those who perished. My condolences. Thank you Juan for this insightful analysis.
Thanks juan,
Used to ride my bike along lake Washington and watch float planes for long times.
Another good job from an under equipped regional office! I agree with the structural failure theory. That and the vertical impact is likely to explain the rapid submersion.
Thank you so much for this report, Juan.
This accident is a particularly painful loss to the local community.
Passengers include a child, and an expectant mother.
TEN well-loved people, that will be sorely missed, and seven of these folks called Washington State their home.
Including Sandra Wilson, a long time activist/advocate, who was on board with her partner, returning from a vacation trip.
Condolences to family and friends…….your loved ones will be remembered by many. 💫🕊💫
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Residing in the PacNw, I spend a lot of time in and around SEA/Whidbey/NASWI.
I read that this is the deadliest crash in ~50 years.
I’m familiar with this aircraft, and will be very curious to see final reports.
According to experienced bush pilot friends in and around AK, it’s a reliable aircraft, noting accidents are typically more related to pilot error vs structural/mechanical. A lot of that is likely geographically specific, tho…..
Very much appreciate the maintenance/ diagnostic issues you reported, and your thought on it absolutely make sense.
That side of things is fascinating to me.
You are by far the most naturally gifted instructor I’ve ever run across! 🫶🏽
They were on the way to my home airport. We called this exact aircraft “Big Bird” and always enjoyed seeing it on the ramp. Sad loss to the aviation community and the families.
I was just at Friday Harbor with my family and almost booked a flight with that company. Opted to take the ferry instead. The thought that it could have been me and my family is chilling. Praying for the families and everyone at Friday Harbor Seaplanes as this is tragic for all of them.
Amazing story! Glade your here to tell the tale.
How was the weather when it crashed?
@@oldmech619 Cliff Mass Blogspot.
I think you should play the lottery. And ferry’s are more fun if you’re not in a hurry!
Old Mech ... weather was 80s with light variable winds. Essentially a picture perfect day for flying.
Good job JB, as per usual!
If you live in the snow belt, you know what salt does to your car's frame and body panels.
Excellent report, thank you RB, Nova Scotia.
ty for the usual quality report, jb...grim news indeed
Excellent, factual analysis as usual. Take it to the bank judgement. Thanks Juan.
Excellent report and commentary. All objective and well presented. Let’s hope for the sake of those lost and the future of this fine aircraft a cause can be determined. Thanks JB.
Thank you. Keep up the great work.
The breadth of your knowledge is deeply impressive. Sad news about the Otter crash though. Thanks for the summary. I'm sure we'll hear more from you once the NTSB has done their work and published their report.
By that time three years from now we will struggle to remember this.
Have flown in the old radial engine single Otter back in 1959 when I was in high school. It was rescuing us do to a mechanical failure to the ancient Norseman that was to ferry us back to our base camp. Always wondered about how much engineering went into the turbo conversions on Otters and other single engine conversions.
Great job as always. Hello from PHX.
You have my full respect for this, Juan.
I was fishing in that area near Whidbey that day and left about 20 minutes before this. I’ve seen this plane flying around a ton. Crazy
Thanks Juan. Great teachings
My wife and I were boating in Puget Sound this past Monday less than 24 hrs after the crash. We were roughly 7 miles due south of the crash area and found a pink women's rubber sandal floating in the water. no other debris floating in the water but kind of ominous knowing there were still 9 souls that hadn't been found and running across a women's sandal. May the families be comforted during these difficult times
Yes, metal fatigue is a killer. A SA Police Pilatus PC6 went down last week at Rand Airport (FAGM / QRA) Johannesburg, the aluminium wing strut eye failed just after take-off (evidently) killing 5.
Sorry to hear this. Condolences.
Both are high-wing designs, making pre-flight visual inspections harder.
Mental fatigue? Sure maybe a problem in other situations but not this one.
You are right about not knowing. We just don’t. I am guessing it was flutter from that servo trim tab. Because of the directives you pointed out. The age of these Otter’s concerns me. Just the need to have an FAA aeronautical engineer formulate a fix for the controls after installed turbos is crazy by itself. It worked for 40 years, but there is a limit. I think we found it. Those hairline cracks happen little by little until massive failure. This plane went down without control of any sort. Tail was broken and the plane flipped down backwards at 79 mph. probably. The people on board this plane were great people that will surely be missed. May God grant them peace.
Bring everyone home safely Juan. You are a hero of many many fans. !
i knew jason, he was a great pilot.. really is sad
Thanks, Juan.
Dan Gryder has brought up a very good point, there has been prior elevator/elevator tab cracking and control problems.
@4:12 to 4:40 plus an example mentioned
The bummer is that fatigue cracks are very hard to find, and nearly impossible to find in a casting where the defect is internal and the crack doesn't show on the surface. About the only thing that can be done (besides prohibitively expensive detailed examination) is to life-limit the airframe to prevent these accidents from happening. Having said that, good luck trying to determine this for bush planes, where the hours may mean less due to a hard life...
@@rnreajr9184 Prohibitively expensive, not necessarily so- until the government gets involved. It would certainly pay to do whatever is necessary now to ensure airworthiness before more incidents like this occur, or else the work will be performed under a s**tstorm of bad press.
@@rnreajr9184 That's scary.....everyone flying one of those has got to worry
@@owenmerrick2377 more government involvement. Like lock me in my house. I think not
Thanks for these preliminary informations.
Juan As usual, a very excellent presentation. NTD (Non Destructive Testing) is a major step above visual inspection but usually requires removal of the part and special skills to read the test results. It is all a matter of time and money. It is cheaper than scrapping older planes (like we do cars) The question is how much money we spend to save lives.
Super job Juan
Another very informative report. Be safe out there.
I knew jason, he was an amazing pilot. RIP
Thank-you! Juan
Condolences to the families. Rip Amen 🙏. Thank you friend for an educational video.
When I heard of the accident, I was working on my Cessna 150. When I first read the article and eyewitness accounts my first thought was an elevator cable snapping or other structural failure on the empennage. I'm interested in seeing the investigation and wreckage of the aircraft to see what really caused this accident. As always, an excellent breakdown Juan.
Well in the case of an elevator (main) cable snapping, it should still be trimmable. I don't know the specifics of the Otter control system but in an airplane with regular trim tabs, the above statement would apply. I've seen it happen and the airplane was landed successfully.
Bang would be wing failure my guess
Having worked in aviation what I saw over and over with any seaplane was how corrosion is insidious and literally gets into anywhere. Honestly when your flying 60 year old aircraft that are in a difficult environment and the extra stress of being a turboprop conversion I'm not surprised they are crashing with what sounds like airframe failure. Aerobatic, agricultural, seaplanes and short destination aircraft really need a total expire time put on the whole airframe.
Thanks Juan ! ✅
As always, great job! Have a safe trip home!
I have flown on these aircraft in this area, both USA and Canada and have wondered about the structural integrity of them. I enjoy them so much. Sad to see.
Your report was fascinating.
Outstanding debriefing.....keep up the good work Juan.
Hey Kurt, its Martin from Mather Aviation! How are you? I am working up at McClellan now for Customs, since 2013.
@@vintageracer3734 Hi Martin, Glad you are still with Customs......good place to be. I retired and moved back to the Alaska place....Been out in bush hunting.....heading out again tomorrow......Glad to be out of California!
@@kurtak9452 Man, I am hoping to get out of here as well! Looking in Idaho, can't wait to say I used to live there...sounds like you are enjoying retirement!
Great information, thank you, RB, Nova Scotia.
I can't bear to think how the families must feel witn the search called off knowing the bodies of their loved ones are in the water like that . It hurts my heart to even contemplate.
Me too. I'm sad about it and sick to my stomach. I can't imagine what the families are going through. A husband and wife, and their young son were on the plane. And the woman was pregnant too. Awful. 😢😭
I've been there, its sucks beyond explanation, but any logical person knows they didn't survive. In my situation, it was a boating accident in near freezing water. When they found the boat capsized, I knew it was over. I made my peace at that moment, but have fought a variant of survivors guilt every day since, because I was supposed to be on that boat, but i was stuck at work......
Long story short, its a burden I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
Or even swept away! Sad! RIP
I have no aviation knowledge whatsoever, but I greatly appreciate your insight. I especially appreciate your willingness to offer potential causes based on your knowledge and the information currently available. Your caveats are clear; nobody knows the cause yet, but there is nothing wrong with discussing possibilities, as long as there is some support for the theory and it is not sheer speculation.
As a commercial passenger just a few times per year, I would be a bit reluctant to get on a small plane that old, even before hearing of this tragedy.
Nice Juan. Enjoy your layover and see you here.
I fully support this aircraft, and your fantastic channel Juan!
I boated through this area today. Recovery of the wreckage will be extremely difficult. Tidal currents are brisk and swirling. The waters are deep (500 feet) and cold.
They have located it.
So soon! Sonar, I assume?
So soon! Sonar, I assume?
thanks for your time and depth of knowledge.....dme and A&P
Thanks Juan
I was a structureal mechanic in the navy in the old F4 phantom. If you do not do Nondestructive testing you will not know of any fatigue cracks until a part fails. More than likely. But the time you can see it the strength of the part is compromised by approx 50%. That is way too much to risk life for. I think Dan Gryder had it right. And if we don’t start Listening to the voice of reason no matter who the voice belongs to.
Dan Gryder is rarely the voice of reason.
@@LazloNQ sorry. I didn’t realize until today how bad it was.
@@DoubleMonoLR your opinion. But he speaks the truth.
Thanks Juan.
Salt air environment on anything aluminum or steel over years of exposure is disastrous! Corrosion
Can hide anywhere. Even your best
Maintenance can miss problem areas . Any one who flys old aircraft
In these salt water environments should be aware of this problem.
Especially when you have innocent
Passengers on board ! Thanx for the
Info Juan , i’m glad we have you for your reporting ! You give me an out let for me to vent my frustration on what’s going on in aviation ! Because
(True Safety Is No Accident)
Thank You for sharing this Video. Cautious observation until complete Investigation !! H.
Flew in one on the way to Dry Tortugas in the Keys. Old plane, but sitting in the cockpit, it definitely felt like a safe old workhorse.
Hi Juan, was curious if you planned to do a report of the Cirrus SR22 that crashed on final near Houston.
This scenario of a sudden pitch up reminds me of the "Galloping Ghost" accident.That is a failure of a stabiliser trim tab or because of much lower speeds a failiure of the elevators.The only other reason a plane can pitch up so suddenly is by pilot input.Either way it will stall and at such low altitude gravity has got your balls for fun.Gravity just does that for a living.
I so much appreciate your knowledge and prospective and the fact that you get right to the subject mater as posted. As opposed to your counterpart who is very informative but at times over opinionated and tends to make me endure a lot of me, me, me stuff before he gets to the the matter at hand.
Losing elevator control like this is super scary
⚓️ Thanks Juan 😎 ? Stress cracking in steel components is common in all industry, so many stress cycles = cracks… in the olden days the annealing process cured the failure rates…. the process is defined in some CFR. Could be a partial solution ⚓️
After I finished Navy Airframes school I was really interested in NDI. I got to spend a Weekend at the NDI shop at NAS Whidbey AIMD. I got to do some Magnetic and Dye Penatrent NDI testing. However that was the only time I ever got to work with NDI.
I went to school for NDT we use serval methods like ultrasonic, X-ray, mag or dye penetrant. Usually for oil field inspection
I see a lot of comments regarding being an old aircraft etc. Manufacturer has directives on maintenance required after x amount of hours and or cycles.
Also major overhauls after x amount of hours and cycles.
Viking air have been refurbishing these out of production aircraft for years.
Dan "Grumpy" Gryder had some pretty strong commentary on this accident. I last flew the piston powered version in Vietnam in 1970 and the plane was old even then.
I have flow this route a few times and have seen this very aircraft. A beautiful area to fly in and a beautiful part of the world and I suggest anyone that has a chance to go there they should.
Very sad incident and I offer my condolences to the family of all involved.
This occurred about 3 miles out in front of our waterfront home in plain site of our widows. We were not aware of it until next morning news cast. Coast guard boats, helicopters and planes were active for many hours searching the area that morning held our attention. We are blessed with lots of aircraft flying by each day. Kenmore Air with all their float plane traffic, Boeing at Paine field close by test flying each new plane off the factory floor. and a plenitude of other aviators plying their whims and duty. It is such a sad situation when things go suddenly wrong.
Mukilteo?
My father-in-law, who lives off the Northside of Mutiny Bay said the fishermen in Mutiny Bay that night heard and saw it drop almost straight down with a slight spiral. It went underwater very fast, apparently. Nothing was said about a loud bang prior to its drop.
Well, glad your windows got to see it.
Beautiful area indeed! 💚💙
Thanks for the update. I do know how hard it will be to recover the airplane.
They found it in 190 feet of water today and will recover soon
Thank you Juan. Most interesting. J
I always find it remarkable how old some aircraft are.
Thank You
first heard about it with the news of the search being ended. the gains in altitude before the crash look like they might be relevant to the problem, but not sure how. kind of sad to have to admit that some of the older birds are just running out of service life.
Ken, Longview can take an old bird and refurbish to new. Incredible what they can do.
Very well stated.
@@SusanKay- Why I cringe when I see Cowboys offroading with their tundra tired aircraft! Question of time before wingtips kiss each other and then lawn dart!
Thanks!
Worked doing structural repair on this type for 10 years, down to the data plate at times ...I'd like to see what they find in the tail of this bird
Just saw a news article about 2 of the passengers that are missing are from Minnesota, my home state. Sad to hear. Condolences to all of the family members of the deceased/ missing.