Grammar or reading: Which type of Latin/Greek textbook is better?
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- In this video, I discuss the relative merits of grammar-intense and reading-based Latin and Ancient Greek textbooks. I have used and have benefited from both, but don't let me have the last word on the issue. What kind of textbooks have you used? Which of these did you prefer, and why?
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You treat books like a gladiator.
Cahuide Lucho it’s fucking hilarious
3:33 that is the latin book we used at newcastle nsw university where i did 4 years 20 years ago
She left more bruises on them in a 5 min video than I leave on my books in a year. She nearly broke the poor guy's nose (Cambridge Latin cover)
🥺😹😹😂😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂
For self learning, specifically Latin, I found that Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata is a wonderful tool, I was a little sad not to see that appear in the video. Of course, a textbook like Wheelocks is great in addition so that you have a resource for defining the rules and declensions and such.
UserOfTheZune Yeah.
Good note.
The Cambridge Latin Course is brilliant.
I prefer doing both grammar and reading at the same time with Lingua Latīna per se illustrata and Assimil and then simply read. Wheelock I would most definitely leave for later once a considerably advanced level has been reached. That's what I've done with each language I've learned. Focusing too much on grammar from the get-go ends up being a major stumbling block, in my opinion.
I quite agree with you, sir.
This has been my experience, too.
I learned Latin using Moreland & Fleischer and then took a course in translating Ovid. But now I tutor using LLPSI or CLC. I think the grammar approach is good if you are learning Latin purely as a compliment to, say, academic research on art history or something like that, where you don't have much time to dedicate to acquisition and you won't be doing extensive reading. But if you actually want to read extensively and enjoy the language, then the reading-based approach works best. However, I've personally found that when you inevitably hit the intermediate plateau and/or you want to improve your ability to actively use a foreign language, studying grammar can help you advance by clarifying or opening your eyes to things that have gone unnoticed or that you have a quasi intuitive understanding of but still struggle with. Nevertheless, nothing beats reading and listening a ton, no matter which approach you use to get started.
I wonder how those books resisted so well such a harsh treatment. Anyway, really informative and useful video, you have an impressive library!
Thanks for this review it clarified so much for me. There are so many books and systems that is hard for the self learner to know where to begin. As for how you treat your books, they are your books. You can treat them how you like!
It is a false choice to say either/or. One can use both the grammar course and the reading course. It is not either/or, it is both. They are complementary.
They are not. Grammar textbooks teach you ABOUT the language, not the language itself. Which, depending on your interests, might not be a bad thing altogether, but certainly doesn't contribute to developing proficiency. Or, at the very least, far less so than just putting that time into some additional reading practice. Check out Stephen Krashen's work on second language acquisition.
@@jb_1971 Studying helps the acquisition process*.
*Btw, I'm an acquisition process supporter.
@@Aditya-te7oo Can you support it somehow? I would love to learn about grammar actually helping language acquisition, even in the slightest degree, but the more I read, the less likely it seems. On the contrary, I encountered claims (which I haven't duly verified!) that although grammar instruction and attempts to speak early on can temporarily aid your production, they harm your progress in the long run. But, again, not a very firm conviction on my side. What I'm sure about is that grammar is the most effective use of given time only if the law of diminishing marginal utility hits input REALLY hard. Otherwise this point is far beyond the amount of time most people spend studying.
@@jb_1971 I'm talking about of knowing the basic grammar and vocabulary of the TL (target language) before mass immersion of the language.
@@jb_1971
The grammar is part of the “language itself”. The grammar isn’t some disconnected abstract thing that sits apart from the language.
That was a very well done review, and I think that it hit the key elements of learning languages academically--and with Classical Greek, Koine Greek, and Latin, that's really the only way to do it effectively.
I'm glad that you mentions the "traditional" texts. I find them wonderfully informative, even if the contrived prose tends strongly to be a tad overwrought and awkward given the particular paradigm they might be reinforcing along with their ham-fisted attempts to cast ancient culture into a form they think teens would find attractive. (If you've ever witnessed adults attempt to relate to youth culture, you'll have an idea of the problem.)
I collect old text books because their content tends to be optimized, so there is less fluff and hand-holding, and their descriptions are taut and well thought out. These sorts of old text books (pre-1930 or so) seem to focus more on the grammatical paradigms, whereas the newer "traditional" (1900 - present) seem to include more prose, whether contrived, authoritative, or modified (as are the first several chapters of Wheelock, Jones, Balme, and others).
With other languages, such as Old English, I've found resources to be scant, with few modern resources rising to the level of quality (my subjective value judgement) as some of the more academically taut texts of the 1850 - 1910 era, which I found terribly useful as references while attempting to slog my way through Beowulf over decade ago.
Although I've been studying languages and linguistics for over 30 years, most of it has been autodidactic. I mention this as a further offering of friendly advice to the language learner with the following admonition: Autodidactic study is completely workable, but should probably be Plan B. Proper language courses taught by people who know the language and understand language acquisition and learning processes should definitely be Plan A.
One of the most fair discussions I have heard on this topic!
After reading a few comments, all I have to say is make a video where you throw books in a dirty pond or burn them.
Just to hear the comment section squirm and squeal
Only Nazi and Communists burn books that are not pornography directed to children.
Howtobasic reviews classics textbooks.
Good one hahahah
Thank you for this video, your suggestions will be very helpfull, I did a year of Latin in middle school but didn't pick it up at all, I want to give it a try with the books "Lingua Latina" by Hans H. Orberg.
P.S. you have the most womanly and gracefull voice, truly a pleasure, do you happen to have a sister or cousin who is single ? :)
If you can read French, I'd recommend starting out with Assimil's Latin - and Ancient Greek - courses with audio.
*How to Read and Speak Latin fluently* - ruclips.net/video/61Kk7VkoWbc/видео.html
Thank you for the recommendation! I don't know any French, but I'm sure others here might benefit from knowing that Assimil resource is out there.
Wow, that's a good video! Many thanks to the author of the channel for the recommendations! The problem with many people is that they want to take a "magic pill" or get "secret knowledge" and immediately have skills and abilities. However, the truth of life is that knowledge, skills, and abilities do not come by themselves. You can't learn a foreign language without doing anything, without wasting your time and effort, just like you can't learn to ride a bike lying on a comfy couch, listening to lectures and watching videos about "modern methods of learning" on a bike. To really learn something, you have to really practice every day. You're going to fall down while you're learning, and you're going to get bumps - that's normal! The ups and downs of learning are an integral part of our lives. Motivation from success and depression from failure will always be your study companions. However, every student has problems in his or her studies that he or she lacks the knowledge to solve. It can be: poor memorization of words; no progress in language learning; the student can speak, but does not understand speech by ear; misunderstanding of grammar; incorrect pronunciation, etc. Agree that a problem you don't know how to solve is very demotivating. In order to find the answer to our question we have to spend a lot of time to read videos, articles and books by polyglots. In today's world, we have to solve problems as quickly as possible. I don't have time to study and analyze a huge amount of information. My goal is to master the basic knowledge of a foreign language as quickly as possible and already start earning money effectively in the international arena. I settled on the practical guide by Yuriy Ivantsiv " Polyglot's Notes: practical tips for learning foreign language". This book is always in my bag. If I have a problem while learning a language, I quickly find the answer in this book. There are many different techniques and tips for learning a foreign language in Polyglot Notes. I have made my own individual schedule and plan for language learning. Now I know what I am going to study, how I am going to study, when I am going to study and what results I am going to achieve. No problem could stop me! With an effective language learning plan my professional skills are more and more in demand internationally every day. Friends, don't stop there! Everyone has talents that millions of people around the world need! Learn the language and make your ideas and dreams come true! Thanks to the author of the channel for the informative and useful video! Your videos motivate me.
Well done, apposite explanation of the differences between the two kinds of textbooks. Thanks for this.
I love your English pronacation, greetings from Greece
Thank you! I would prefer hearing Separately about current Greek options.
Greetings from the U.S.A., thanks for this video it has been very insightful, I just purchased a copy of Wheelocks Latin today, so wish me luck in my study, and please give me any advice you have on how to approach the chapters and grammar!
Thanks you
You should try Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata, it's the best Latin book by far
@@chicoti3
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll look into that, right now I'm just trying to build up my mental inventory of Latin vocab.
I did the Cambridge Schools Classics Project Latin course, 1971-5. It was in its infancy then but it has run and run. I'm sure Pliny would have enjoyed it!
@Cc the O Level with massive luck. I was an average student that struggled. But I enjoyed myself on occasion. I think it was Nuffield.
Thank you for this giving me some ideas on where to go next. My college Latin class is using Wheelock's right now and I've been thinking of getting some more reading intensive books to compliment it.
I just bought my own personal copy of the Wheelocks Latin grammar textbook today, my study is going to be independent of any formal teaching. Any advice before I start progressing through the book?
@@legioxciicorvus5917 Do you know any language which uses case system ?
*Throws book* "This book was useful."
This got me laughing so much I can't even breathe xDD
@@AlexIncarnate911 Young millennial..in a hurry...etc...lol
@@AlexIncarnate911 Me too. 😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
in the exercises are the correct answers written somewhere?
It's so nice to find a Latin/Greek teacher from my neck of the woods! (no shade to the American yt'ers here but their accents are so rough on my ears 😂😅)
Where can you find “Septimus?” I’ve looked nearly everywhere and that looks like a great Latin reader.
We used maybe 6 months a very, very traditional grammar focused textbook and then it was only Cicero, Tacitus, Vergil etc
So what Greek grammar texts do you recommend?
Can we use the Cambridge Latin course as self study?
Yes absolutely. There is a free online version of it right now where you can read the stories with vocab tools. They will eventually put the online version behind a paywall, but when that happens it'll only cost a few dollars a year per user, which is still a very good deal.
OMG, thank you for mentioning this, i was looking for something a bit more structured that i could supplement with other free online recourses i've found. Needed a good solid outline and this was the ticket! AND it even shares testing style, so helpful since i want to take it and Ancient Greek in Uni.
just found this Latin tutor who shows how to get the most out of the course/book, figured i'd share, as a thank you! ruclips.net/video/G_Y8muTEUCQ/видео.htmlsi=lj5R7k5XjVwqcO01
Latin requires an analytical approach and a lot of grammar in order to both learn it well and be able to translate.
If you also take into account that the Romans were very strict when it came to studying/school that they might have had a analytical approach.
Generally you tend to forget the grammar after a while. When you read, you become better fluently and think about grammar later.
Those books are in struggle town. Thanks for the book tips
Excellent video, but a little scary, maybe its a temperament thing.
be careful with the books !
In sum: If you're having a rough time reading... read more. Got it.
Good info about Latin textbooks and methods.
Note: This comment is so I can easily find this video in the future.
Remind me never to lend you a book....
You treat the books like an Italian guy treats his first wife...
Volandark Side looool
Wheelocks latin coursebook is the best. It helped me a lot
Familia Romana, helped me more or is helping me more than wheelocks. It just depends on how one easily learns and what your goal is. Familia Romana does delve into grammar a bit and has its little exercises. I will end up looking to get more in depth after I finish.
I am a little new to this. But I am not finding proper use of Greek or Latin when using them for technical terms for US humans. WE should be categorized as "OPTIMAL" Promonid- Hupnoid-Propositii? This seems to me the more accurate application of Greek, Latin words. Our language could have a much more positive affect if these more proper usage would be applied. Hmmm. Comita pro mentis!
For Greek: Thrasymachus - lots of reading.
For Latin: Kennedy’s Latin Primer - lots of grammar. They manage to make the two languages as nearly painless as possible.
That is not how to treat books, not even paperbacks. What she did to the cover of the Wheelock made me flinch LOL.
A question:
1. Why do Latin grammars ignore pretty much anything after 150 AD or so ? Apuleius, Tertullian and Arnobius are as worth reading as Lucretius or Cicero or Tacitus. Besieging the Belgae with the help of the forces of Labienus is not the whole of Latin.
Little late but people usually like studying classical latin.
@@T0e-Man A most admirable pursuit, to be sure.
Thanks for the great points.
This is so helpful! Thank you!
You should do both
has anyone used Getting Started with Latin by William E. Linney?
Mariana Anjos Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and in my opinion that's the best Latin learning book (for absolute beginners. One who's not used to the case system). There are two books, the first is Getting Started with Latin and the second is Keep Going with Latin. I used the first one (but I didn't use the the second one, but both are awesome books) and after finishing it I started to read LLPSI: Familia Romana by Hans H. Ørberg. Recently I finished the chapter 10 in the book. The book (Getting Started with Latin by William E. Linney) is sooo underrated. Tbh, I didn't expect you to asking like that, 'cause whenever I say I'm learning Latin I always mention about it ('cause I want the book to be popular), 'cause the book is sooooo underrated, no one talks about it.
@@Aditya-te7oo thank you soooo much! you have no idea how much you helped me
@@ma.9029 In the book there are Latin to English exercises which has all the answers in the back of the book. I didn't check my answers but I'm quite sure most of my answers are correct. I'd suggest you after finishing the two books start reading LLPSI: Familia Romana (which is entirely in Latin) and Lingva Latina: a companion to Familia Romana (which is in English).
Btw, what books are you using now ?
very good , Thanks
Wonderful presentation
Brutus. Por Dios como trata los libros.
Good video!
Do you think it's possible to self-teach both languages?
Very few people are going to have mental difficulties bad enough to prevent them learning something like another language. The only real barrier stopping someone from learning what they want (or would like to want) is, as you'd expect, motivation.
Layla Williams Yes.
Where can you get “Septimus?”
would you sell some of those books?
I want to buy English latin book.
Thanks.
You handle books so roughly, it really makes me angry.
For some reason this amuses me... sorry about that! None of these books (except the 1950s book) are antique or valuable. But yeah, I was getting quite fidgety after doing multiple takes of this video.
if he gets angry. will he turn green and get bigger? lol Hulk smash?
I was about to say the same thing.
Treat your books well, even if they are not antique!
I'm sorry for those abused books.
I like Latin for Americans series.
Very helpful, but I would suggest you to pay some respect to these tomes of antiquity.
This is better
Dear God! Whether you like the books or not, they are blessed repositories of knowledge! Treat them with respect and stop trying to break their spines!!!
Involuntary ASMR XD
Elle tutoie les livres sans vergogne !
Is this a parody?
No, this is genuinely what I was like six years ago