Notice how nothing in the Stan Lee video discourages his fans from debating amongst themselves about who would win in a fight. It’s about him getting annoyed at people asking him that question specifically. Stan didn’t debunk power scaling, he was just feed up with people asking him the same questions again and again.
Also his point was not ignore power in the story he said that isn't the determinator of who wins. OPM lost a fight in his comics why he was disqualified from a tournament does that prove he is weaker then his opponent no he lost because of the rules of the tournament
Power scaling is kinda necessary if the writer wants their story to be consistent. Imagine you read 20 issues of Spider-Man lifting/throwing cars, dodging missiles, taking hits that level half of NY, etc. Then in issue 21 he gets knocked out by a mugger w a glass bottle. Would you not go “wtf how did THAT beat him??” Having no sense of scale is basically mashing two action figures together. Entertaining for a while but if anyone can beat anyone there’s no real stakes
usually when i think of power scaling i think specifically of fans debating the powers of certain characters. obviously an author has to consistently powerscale their own characters or it kind of falls apart.
But fans do it for any number of reasons. . and included in them is understanding what the characters are meant to be able to do anyway @@robocatssj3theofficial
My favorite take on why power scaling is bad is that we take the characters and disregard the story of said characters. And it’s like “we picked the match because of the story and how similar the characters are”
pretty sure death battle matches characters up based on their similarities in character and in story, and they sometimes have the worst scaling possible.
The whole point of matchups is that we understand the characters to a point where we wanna see how similar stories stack up in terms of power creep. We didn't put up Goku vs Superman for the bland emotionless reason of seeing them fight, but to see how similar characters could defeat one another.
@@opadripstop the cap lmfao superman wouldn't have such deeply emotional talk he usually have about his alien heritage and how heroism shaped him into a symbol of humanity greatest aspect while doing heat vision and freezing combos on a bored out base super goku
@@ndvct6087 maybe because 99% of fiction isn’t about power progression😂 that’s why you don’t see people having serious debates about gag characters fighting because that’s not what their story is about
@@angelotantoine6434 So you agree you're completely wrong for saying "if the power progression in the story doesn’t make sense, that’s just bad writing." Glad we got that settled. Now move it forward and do better.
I feel like Stan Lee’s comment only applies for comics for the most part because you’ll have a character that’s consistently shown to be street tier be capable of fighting someone that’s cosmic level due to prep time or bloodlust as an example but when it comes to other pieces of fiction you can’t say the author decides who he wants to win without establishing why this character beats that character or else it would be bad writing
I respectfully disagree, characters in say, dragon ball, have been somewhat shown to be consistent in power, some have and some haven’t. Let’s take Hercule for example, he posses no ki and is strong by regular human standards, but is completely fodder to our main cast. And some “powerscalers” argue that he could solo other verses that are MUCH stronger than him as an individual, just for “dodging” or “reacting” to kid buu’s attacks. Or the fact that he survived an attack from Cell, both of which were CLEARLY played off for gags. But these powerscalers take EVERYTHING in the show at face value and when they shouldn’t, because “feats” clearly contradict what the story is trying to tell. Sorry for the rant here, but I don’t think the powerscalers community should be prohibited or anything, or that powerscalers themselves are terrible content creators or anything of the sort, rather, I believe they should actually LOOK into the story for an accurate power scaling video, and cross power scaling will always be flawed no matter what, as people have multiple interpretations of a characters power, especially if the author is not specific on it. So, in my opinion, Stan Lee’s comment DOES apply to all media that covers a power system, or even some that don’t. For example arguing that Mickey Mouse is outversal or something because he broke the fourth wall and destroyed a universe or he erased his entire dimension, or whatever. These type of things are meant for laughs at how ridiculous the situation is, and are not to be take literally, which is something that power scalers do too often. Or that same Mickey Mouse tripping and hurting himself, is called an “anti feat” as it contradicts his “outerversal” power shown 200 episodes ago, this just proves my point. In all anime or comics or whatever, the writers don’t usually pay much attention to power and simply try to tell a compelling story, sometimes with big and cool fights that are meant to shut your brain off. If the writers don’t care about consistency, then probably neither should you. Thank you for reading and I am open for feedback and/or constructive criticism on this topic.
@ Yeah no writers do care about how strong their characters are or who would win in the fights of their story because if that wasn’t the case why do you think toriyama established power levels for example? Why do you think power rankings exist within different shonen like for example this character in naruto who is strong can be called kage level, this strong character in JJK is considered special grade , or this strong character in bleach is considered captain level, etc etc. point is saying scaling doesn’t matter is blatantly false when it’s a fundamental aspect of writing that’s needed for any piece of media that involves action/fights with stakes
I dont get the hate for powerscaling, its not like the community having flaws should be the reason u hate powerscaling itself, which is most ppl’s reason for hating on powerscaling
Its okay but the thing I hate is when im having a normal conversation with a guy and someone barges in with powerscaling stuff. Like I remember being in argument with why Meruem had a better character development than Gojo and the dude just says "buh buh Gojo beats Meruem low-diff!". Can't have normal conversation with those people
The reason I like power scaling is that it sheds light on how powerful some characters are like how Kirby is mostly not seen as strong but when is looked and researched would be considered very strong and it’s just fun to see on how the characters that you love can get strong to improve or overcome there obstacles that in there way and I always fun to see
@@lonkstakes how about ghost rider, he's also really strong aswell and some people overlook him or downplay him which is sad cause he's a really strong fictional character
@CthulhuMoonKnightSolosAnimeim think refer more in joke characters or character look no danguerous and look how strong are and this can beat gods or superhumans its funny (sportucus, kirby, spongebob, unclegranpa, and others)
@@gabrielmbx9253 I’d like to add MLP to this list. The fact that I can confidently say that Twilight solos the Naruto verse will never not be funny to me.
I'm honestly really glad that you made this video since people hate power scaling so much for some reason when it's just comparing two characters in a fight,and that it disrespects the characters somehow? And how it's all about stats and not the story.but like people power scale usually because they're familiar with the series and wonder who will actually win without a writers perspective.and even then a character could win or lose because of their personality and how they act in their story so characters aren't being disrespected they're just being analyzed and debated in arguments just like story or character analyzes
Agree with you wholeheartedly. I think the people who say "Powerscaling is bad" are usually referring to crossverse power scaling and not inverse powerscaling since inverse is less reliant on calcs or being on a specific tier of power or speed. But it is still powerscaling as you pointed out. "Author doesn't think of Powerscaling". You addressed it but to add my thoughts to it: I think the Author thinks about powerscaling in general terms. If the author has a character stated to be light speed and then another character is faster, clearly the author is saying "this character is faster than light". What the Author probably isn't thinking about is how much faster than light said character is (and that's not to say calcs to find out are invalid, just that the Author likely didn't think of it). To add to the Stan Lee quote, context can change the course of a battle. Hulk is stronger than spider-man by a large degree, but you want Spidey to win. How do you do it? Well in one story, Spidey told a joke which caused the Hulk to turn back into Bruce Banner. Spidey "won" the fight but the context heavily impiles or outright states that he would not have won a normal fight which supports powerscaling (plus fans get mad when bad writing causes bad powerscaling). This reminds of similar "shipping is bad" arguements which fellow youtuber Broku also pointed out. It's not one-to-one, but the same people who say "Shipping is bad" say "Peter Parker and MJ should still be married"
@@kieranprior3873 to your second paragraph. DC and Marvel authors do think of their power scaling not in general terms, haven't you seen recently Thor and Superman author trying to make them stronger upping each other
You cannot scale Saitama since his Character is based on the ultimate things you could Imagine. Hence, a parody of OP Characters and people just don't understand or don't want to accept that.
Biggest question in power scaling history right now does the apple amp stacks like he can eat multiple of them with it stacking would Popeye spinach also stack
The only thing that makes me cringe is when people try powerscaling gag characters. Just cause a character breaks a manga panel doesnt mean they are beyond 4 dimensional. Its just a silly thing the author does with no actual affect on the story being told.
It’s 50/50 from my experience. Powerscaling in general is important. When you want find out how powerful a certain character is it’s definitely important but it definitely gets to a point where a lot of scalers can either be biased or flat out wrong. Like if it’s a vs debate most of the time they’ll try to upscale their favorite character while occasionally downplaying the other. Overall I used to make powerscaling posts on my insta but stopped because I didn’t want to have hour long debates on fictional characters because of them would just get out of hand. Overall tho I really do think powerscaling in general is important and most things in fiction need to have some lvl of that like having consistent feats and statements.
Obviously narrative and character building is most important but Powerscaling is a pretty good way of showing how much a character has developed! They work hand in hand
@@shettygaming7280 If you have the right to deny people their right to powerscale, then I have the right to deny your right to share your opinion online. It's only fair... or do you suddenly not like the idea of restricting other people's rights for your own completely arbitrary, emotionally driven and poorly thought out reasons? You may "want" powerscaling to stop, but that's a ridiculous demand that no one reasonable is going to listen to. If you don't like it, get lost.
I also hate those types of people who think powerscaling is something new or something that’s never happened before. Like I’m sure people in the 1950s were debating Batman vs Superman just like we do today😂
Now, let's give a good example on how non-toxic power scaling can be by giving an old Question a new Twist: What versions of Goku & Superman would be needed for the closest Battle possible?
@@yamato9753Genuinely my guy I honestly think dceu superman vs end of og db or Saiyan saga Goku are the most close to be a actual debate Any main DC era of superman from silver to gold to pre to post crisis to new 52 to rebirth to current is way too high
"Powerscaling sucks because blabla" bruh it's just an hobby, it only sucks when it became a excuse for people to be toxic as fuck but that works for literally every thing. Those are the same people that say "gaming isnt fun anymore" bruh it literally is? Maybe the problem is just yours and that's all.
And I even see a guy who makes a powerscaling hate video just straight up admitting: "Yeah, I am purposefully insulting your hobby, what are you gonna do?"
Powerscaling isn’t a bad thing and I think people don’t like it based off the people who do it. Some people take it way too seriously and act like you committed a cardinal sin against them and their bloodline if you disagree with them. Powerscaling is should be more of a side thing and should be done more for fun and not be taken too seriously
these days people like to do videos saying like "this is shit because(...)" and "im gonna show you the truth" or something like that, they act like they're super smart or whatever
I hate power scaling because of the people who internalise it and make it their only personality, like if I say I like Naruto, some random person will almost always say something along the lines of “Oh but Luffy is stronger so that makes him better” or “Naruto isn’t even the strongest in his verse” like they are just haters and can’t let people enjoy stuff and always a total buzz kill and make the character 1d, if they aren’t strong they are inherently bad
I hate people who hate on power scaling because they judge the entire hobby based on some toxic people they interacted with. They think because someone acted like an ass justifies them hating on a group who for the vast majority is just having fun with their favorite characters. It's an incredibly shallow and insulting way of interacting with people and they seem to need to tell people who are talking about powerscaling how much they hate powerscaling.
Whenever I see people hate on power scaling, it’s usually the same points and usually you can usually level those stuff on anything fandom related. Like shipping can be called dumb if the person said ‘the relationship that will happen with character X is the one that the writer wants!’
spongebob does NOT have consistent power. one second he's struggling to lift two teddy bears on a stick, the next he's erased the entire universe by pulling a thread. trying to consistently scale any gag character like that is a fool's errand.
Going off the X character can’t go faster than light thing something that makes me mad is when power scalers then take the fact that a character is going faster than light in order to give them durability or ap feats based off it using physics.
Inconsistent power scaling is the same as inconsistent character interactions or any other story point. Imagine day one a superhero can fly fast enough to save people 2 miles away before a bomb explodes, then the story end with them not being fast enough to save a loved one in the exact same situation… you’d say “but the superhero did they already” the story would be unsatisfying The same way if characters were introduced at the start of the story, then at the end there’s a massive character reveal and the MC is acting like they don’t know someone they previously met. You’d wonder why it doesn’t make sense. Power scaling is just a consistency of a different type of story point I think people don’t like how detailed power scaling can be, as it sometimes means they have to do some work to understand the story being told. For example, they’re happy if it’s simple as the story makes sense that way. Then a seasoned power scaler reveals the inconsistencies to this individual and it ruins the show for them
The problem with power scaling at least for me is how they do it. Its like for starters a character that lives in another dimension is automatically dimensional level which is dumb because I live on a planet doesn't mean I'm planetary level. Two the character themselves, like yeah if they go all out they can theoretically kill some people , but most of the time they don't do that. Like with spider-man he sometimes does powerful stuff but it takes a lot of planning, someone gives him that, or its a writer who doesn't understand the character and wanks him up when they shouldn't have.
I’m not against powerscaling. I think a lot of people who don’t like it base it off moreso the people surrounding it. I agree there are people who take powerscaling way too seriously and take any disagreements for their scaling way too personally. Some even think that if the character they like more loses it somehow makes their series and character worse when that isn’t the case. I prefer AoT over Dragon Ball and guess what? Goku soloing their entire verse doesn’t make the story any less amazing and the characters worse. It’s a hobby that should be done for fun and shouldn’t be taken too seriously.
Hey, I already wrote a comment, but after a while I remembered another reason why I don't like power scaling, or more precisely, things that result from power scaling. What I mean here is how power scaling affects how people perceive the series. It's about the phenomenon where the series is not necessarily about fights and only contains fights, but due to certain elements, the topic of "can you beat this character" becomes very common in the fandom to the point that people forget what the series is about. I mainly mean three series: Dragon Ball, Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken, and SCP (There are other series that suffer from this, but I will mention mainly these three) Dragon Ball doesn't suffer from this that much because... well, it can't be denied that it is a series about fighting.But due to the popularity and eternal debates that Goku can beat someone, everyone has certain expectations towards this series and only thinks about the fights. The original Dragon Ball especially suffers from this as it is more of an adventure and due to the lack of destroying planets, people are disappointed with it and don't even try to give it a chance.And when some deeper themes appear in the series, people often ignore them because it's not what they came for. The situation with Slime is much worse. Most of the stuff you'll see on the internet about this series is how powerful Rimuru is and that he can beat Goku and so on. Which again sets people up for this series with certain expectations, but there is a problem. Unlike Dragon Ball, Slime is not about fighting at all. This is a political fantasy about building a nation and all fights have a political context, mainly war between nations, but even then we do not forget about politics.This isn't a series designed for people who want fights on screen, but with all the talk about how powerful Rimuru is, people come to watch it just to see it. And the worst thing is that they won't get it anyway because people talk about Rimuru from the light novel, in the anime he is still far from the level he presents in the source material.This makes them angry and criticize the anime for things it was never designed to do. And then there's SCP.....jesus christ. This series is already struggling with the problem of being called a creepypasta and being lumped in with other scary things when SCP abandoned this theme a long time ago and now it is one big writing universe.And now we have to deal with the problem of further discussions about which SCPs are the strongest and whether they could defeat Goku. If people at least used these newer SCPs it would be survivable, but no. Just like people who reduce SCPs to "scary monsters", here we are using the SAME SCP ALL THE TIME. SCP 173, 096, 682, 106 over and over again. These SCPs are about 10 years old, let's finally let them die a natural death and not keep clinging to them as if they were the only SCPs in this series. I recently became interested in Analog Horror and your videos about power scaling them were really interesting, but only as a curiosity. I don't want it to suddenly turn into a debate about who is the strongest, where this is not what these series are about. And I have already seen many videos on this topic. I don't think that power scaling shouldn't be there at all, but I think that it has become too common these days and that's why some series like the one above suffer from it.And the fact that many people don't know how to do power scaling at all and just want their favorite character to win doesn't help either.
I didnt read everything but yeah, I was listening to a rimuru fanfic on marvel. out of 10~ comments 3 were about rimuru's power and that not even with the gems they would beat him and blablabla. with scp because I experienced it myself, I thought they were ocs made for the pws, but then you realize that there are thousands of stories and scps that do not talk about its strength even once. The fanfic Was bs btw
The Stan Lee quote is interesting because I always interpreted it as him saying the winner of a fight is whoever the writer justifies winning. For example, if there was a fight between movie thanos and hawkeye the writer would give hawkeye the infinity gauntlet to justify hawkeye winning instead of just writing it too where hawkeye wins by shooting him with a regular arrow.
Except it doesn't even have to go that way by itself. Deadpool so many times could just be written to kill someone for whatever reason. It doesn't even have to make sense for it to happen. It just has to make sense for people to treat it as more than just a joke.
A great example of power scaling being important is one of the best movies of all time: Terminator 2. Arnold wanted to toss Robert Patrick around but he was told no cause the T-1000 is pure metal and the T-800 isn't. Part of the whole conflict is about how the new Terminator is stronger and more versatile than the previous one.
I just don't like how People will be toxic and attack You for a take You have. Most People in the community aren't exactly considerate when They disagree, They often come on extremely strong with no regard for Anyone which makes it feel You're being attacked. I joined your server once and said Iceman washes Goku. Keep in mind Iceman is an omega level mutant which puts him on the same tier as other omega level mutants. There are even instances of him harming and take hits from other omega level mutants who have insane feats. Feats that Goku does not scale to in the slightest. He also has some ridiculous feats himself, again that Goku does not even remotely scale to. Like freezing hell which is an outerversal+ realm. Yet when I said Iceman washes Goku I was instantly jumped by multiple People. Telling me I was wrong and that I'm clearly just a hater. People disagreeing isn't what bothers me it's just that I would like to share my thoughts without being attacked for it. If They think I'm wrong They don't have to go about it in such a way. That's why People turn away from power scaling. If You can't see that then I'm not sure what to say.
@IsaiahJones-rw1pc Yeah because that's the dumbest take of all time and if Anyone did even a tiny fraction of research They would know Superman would curb stomp Kratos into the ground and it's not even remotely close. Not in the slightest. Kratos has absolutely zero win cons. If You have takes like that then yeah. You shouldn't ever attempt scaling again because that's absolutely horrendous. I would say it all over again if I could. That's how terrible that take was.
I've had that happen to me. There's this character who was explicitly mentioned could snap the multiverse out of existence if he had just one bad day, but nah...he can't even be subsonic because physics says your body would break down at that speed, despite having literal magic and is a literal god throwing nukes and battling Lovecraftian gods. 😂
In my opinion the Journey to Eternity verse is No.1 in power scaling. You will need to research about it but due to the author not wanting people who only care about power scaling to read it he took it off the internet, now only a few copies of it exist (it still is being manufactured but you have to know the right people to get it) you can’t even call it JtE verse as its cosmology scales above omniverses,existences,everything. (Basically he had to creates hundreds of new terms to describe the effects of the attacks such as one of the characters introduced in the third book has a omniversal destruction and creation attack) yes this sounds so stupid but the author makes amazing fights and characters. You should research it, and yes the protagonist does beat goku, Saitama, Rimuru, Anos etc all at the same time
Power scaling has issues when you have people going "X character is star level or galaxy level". That stuff is usually annoying since it ignores specific circumstances going on as to why events happen, like Superman shattering dimensions when he fought his Earth 2 counterpart in Infinite Crisis as if the entire multiverse wasn't destabilized at the time, or characters being faster than light because they dodged energy blasts even though said energy blasts are interacting with objects with mass as if they themselves have mass, which means some characters aren't actually reacting at the speed of light.
So basically critical thinking is important to all communities, I've seen multiple sides of this conversation. It's honestly just fun too me and others, which is why we do it 🎉
The main thing I can't stand about power scalers in general is the ones that either willfully ignore essential evidence relating to a character or setting, or intentionally misrepresent the characters or evidence purely to make the argument go one way or the other in their favor. Not going to point fingers here, but some of the most popular groups on RUclips are massively guilty of this kind of behavior where they will make one person seem massively weaker than existing evidence suggests purely to make their favorite character win.
Honestly, power scaling is a double-edged sword. Its fun to talk about and engage in, but there are also those who take it WAY too seriously. As someone who takes power scaling on a casual/concrete level, it is fine on occasion. While there are those that are toxic, I understand that those people aren't a reflection of everyone. I think the other issue that people have is that there are people who HEAVILY push their own narratives and scaling on characters where it does makes sense, but 9/10 times, the character is 100,000% not the level those people think the character is, given what's shown on screen, written down, or illustrated on. And they try and try to keep pushing their scaling onto people who don't agree or have their own takes. It might be wrong, but people should be allowed to stay on one side for their personal take. For example: If Joe is planetary because they destroyed a planet, then he's planetary. But if he has an ability that creates an infinite space or something, he's universal or whatever. Both takes CAN/SHOULD work and the people scaling Joe should staying on their respective sides without getting in each other's neck about who's wrong and who's right if the debate gets heated.
What I hate most in powerscaling is when you have people saying “this character can destroy the universe”, but they never specify how long it would take, something I feel massively changes the perspective of that statement and why that type of powerscaling is flawed
@@Qwerty-345-12f that’s more character specific. Buu is a being of pure evil and chaos, he only tried to destroy the universe after he became buuhan. As for Goku he would never actually destroy a universe, he values life too much.
This is all stems to Stan Lee's response which they all take it either out of context or misunderstanding on what he said from what I remember Lonk. Like I get that the author can do whatever they want like making a weaker character beating a strong one but, that's where the problem is at, if a character was already establish as like this near omnipotent entity but got defeated by let's say the MC without any reason besides that's the author decided then, it's just bad writing in general
I think when people say that powerscaling sucks, all they mean most of the time is that they don't like how powerscalers can be overly toxic and focus too much on asspulled calculations. Which is a valid criticism. It's just that a generic "powerscaling sucks" doesn't really address what powerscaling actually is.
Stan Lee's rant only applies to in-universe scaling. He never once said power scaling is meaningless or that some imaginary writer decides a cross verse debate on Comic Vine.
I love this video so much. Especially the bias part. I was arguing with someone about jjk scaling about how jogo is stronger than toji, and all people did in response was be like, " Bro it's toji, toji could never lose to jogo because he's toji." Even though jogo ( and the disaster curses as a whole )have way better feats and statements that put them above most people/curses in the jjk world. Jogo isnt even my favorite character from that series, but jjk fans are so unbelievably bias towards their favorite characters that the thought of them being weaker than a lesser popular character is considered heresy.
toji still wins lmfao he's the curse of the zenin clan, the failed fate breaker no amount of cursed energy could get through the resolve of his aimless soul rampaging
the problem with powerscaling is highlighted by your inability to see how stronger ideas and its relationship with self is far stronger than the demiurgic curse of earth who merely believed in a world where curses will dominate the world, he was simply too weak to unlock his true potential
@@fleshInlang bro toji lost to teen gojo and jogo would beat that same gojo with ease, with zero prep time and without weakening him. Toji was only "aimless" and "rampaging" due to the granny's technique and his poor way of life while he was alive. You literally just used a bunch of narrative glazing that was only used to explain his zombie like state in Shibuya as if that disproved anything I said. Unless toji uses a cursed tool he is completely powerless against any cursed Spirit. So that narrative glazing is pointless even on a meta level. His ACTUAL feats in term of power and speed are below jogos. Which is something that can actually be scaled. Toji has direct statements that maxes his speed at around three finger sukuna, and maki, someone who is equal to him, has feats that reinforce that he is for sure at a 3 finger level. Y'all toji glazers need to get off your knees. This video just criticized the exact thing that you just did by trying to use a character arc to justify why toji is stronger than jogo without doing any actual scaling to reforce your argument.🤣
@antoneopitts2212 whole lot of yap and still narratively toji wins because he has better motives, it's as simple as that outside many layers of classism so instead of embarrassing yourself by making such weak in-verse arguments and just put him against someone else of relative power from your perspective
@antoneopitts2212 notice how this video is actively anti-intellectualist and has mf expose himself not reading much outside of powerscaling fiction He's a great example of self-parody deluding people Into thinking they're making sense and aren't just making fanfiction
If power scaling just means a>b then its automatically based on a false premise. There are many scenarios where "b" could overcome "a" even if "a" is allegedly stronger. Skills, technique, mindset, environment, type advantage, health, stamina, even just plain luck can all affect an outcome. In real life and fiction fights are never just straight strength checks. Sure you can say that "a" should beat "b" but there is always going to be an argument for "b" if they are at all relative.
Powerscaling isn’t about “how would win in a random fight”, because obviously there’s luck and outside factors involved there. It’s more about who is more LIKELY to win, or with how Deadliest Warrior did it, in a simulation of 1000 battles, which character would get more wins?
I hate powerscaling cause half the- no MOST of the mfs don’t even be knowing what they’re talking about and they just nit pick a op feat without ANY context at ALL and everytime I ask them can I get context they just move around the question and most likely 9/10 they didn’t even read or watch the shit
I think the main problem many people have with Dragon Ball powerscaling is the insane level of power creep there is and how the Original went from surviving being thrown through multiple concrete walls to sudden jump shooting vaporizing celestial bodies like the moon and how characters dominate characters like that then to vaporizing larger planetary bodies in Z and the power creep continues to get worse saga after saga. I recommend checking out Eonity's take of how Dragon Ball powerscaling has always been absurd.
tbf Goku is a gag+rage character he literally acts like troll face physics with his transformation but he's Goku so can do that and is appreciated for being a Goofy martial artist who will always grow higher
@@fleshInlang You mean like Goku going from a power level over 8,000 in base form to jumping to a power level of 3,000,000 in the span of a single month? That is quite a insane in universe power creep.
Honestly, I find the powerscaling debates enjoyable, especially this channel (and Salad too is another powerscaling channel) I can see people debate how powerscaling can be toxic, but yeah it is individuals (in any group) but I feel like people shouldn't take the powerscaling to heart Like sure Goku is overpowered but that's not gonna stop me from liking other characters that aren't as strong but still unique in their own ways, like if Goku Black is stronger than SSJ4 Goku, I'm not gonna be upset about it I just like SSJ4 as a form Also it is fiction, I don't really care to apply real life logic when I see someone flying or having powers
salad is the goat because he actually bake more characteristics into his story and embrace the fuck canon and this is my fanfiction and I'll make Goku into a destroyer a lot of things are relative and Toriyama may never thought about it, but who cares he's making fun stories, actively altering the scale to inflate or deflate the PLs who now matter because why would anyone judge someone who's not trying to argue in the first place
i think the main issue people have with powerscaling is that it can sometimes feel like a series scaling higher than another implies that the series is better in terms of writing/quality, which is obviously not true
Honestly I always defer to what death battle says at the end of superman vs Goku part 3, say what you will about death battle but I think they hit the nail on the head by summarizing how people generally feel about about power scaling. Some people think that all power scalers basically do is watering down the characters into a mindless Bloodsport, but in reality many power scalers show their appreciation and love of the characters by admiring and comparing their strength and their weaknesses. It may not be the way that many people show their appreciation and love of a series but there are more then one way of appreciating media. Plus the power scaling is community is filled with wickedly smart mfs. Like how the f would someone forgot the speed of the flash, it mind blowing.
Really soild vid Lonk sometimes powerscaling and the narrative correlates with each and certain people just don’t want to see it that way. Hopefully this will give those people a new insight on scaling in general.
The "who is stronger than who" aspect of powerscaling is important in most narratives where combat is a big element otherwise it results in bad writing. What doesnt matter and authors dont care about is the exact numbers that go into it. With dragon ball for example. It means absolute jack shit to me or the writer story wise if goku is a universe buster, or if hes a mountain buster. What matters is that you dont have some fodder character with barely any potential suddenly beating up on beerus because he trained for a few days. Or marvel where it makes no difference if galactus is multiversal or barely planetary. If you have spiderman suddenly beat him, its impossible to take it seriously. Which is why getting mad because someone thinks your plumber or hedgehog cant nuke the solar system is stupid. I do however think its dumb to try to quantify all of fiction into a single system especially for series where it gets insanely arbritrary (anything dealing with higher dimensions, touhou, minecraft, gag series etc) or just start seeing every character as a number
In my experience, folk who don't like powerscaling either have a specific favorite and think way too highly of them, or flat out dismiss certain characters due to their genre or style. An example for the latter is one of my friends will discuss the idea of things like how strong Godzilla, Dragonball, Transformers, and a few other mecha or anime stuff but in turn dismiss the idea of scaling Mario, Sonic, or Spongebob. He disagrees with the specific medium. In some aspects I can agree. I take weird issues with the comical powers referred to as "Toon force" or gag powers because they're meant as, well a gag or joke and not an actual representation of power. In such cases, I tend to avoid scaling crossverse from gags to serious. I wouldn't scale Bugs Bunny vs Naruto for example. One character's powers stem from comedy, the other something serious and meant to be a display of power. It's less serious, and hard to argue in good faith in my opinion because the powers granted by the gag are not often actually something typically depicted of that character.
Truth be told. Power Scaling is a tool used by fans in vs debates. No writer can write characters consistent enough to follow even 50% of their own scale.
Most casual people hate powerscaling simply because their favorite character will never be the strongest there will always be someone stronger out there.
Both sides approach power scaling incorrectly since it's subjective to how you define power scaling. The biggest problem with power scaling the way most fans use it is it's entirely fan-made. If you can have a valid opinion about power scaling's legitimacy, it's not legitimate. If each fiction has its own separate power scale, then the standardized fan scale doesn't work. When it comes to the plot and story, the examples you gave I wouldn't really consider power scaling, but even if it is scaling, the scaling isn't important to the story, the threat is what's important. Those are different things. If power scaling were so great, there wouldn't be a need to fight at all since you'd already know who's stronger and going to win. It's one thing to say A>B, but it's an entirely different thing to say A>B and B>C so A>C. The transitive property only works when you're comparing one and only one variable. There are countless variables in fights so it becomes a transitive property and/or false equivalent fallacy depending on the argument. This is what Stan Lee is talking about about. It's not about inconsistently being weaker or stronger at any given moment. It's that events, circumstances, and decisions matter just as much if not more.
Not really since 1. Scenarios can be assumed e.g Bloodlusted, based on how the character behaves. 2. At times most people just compare stats so it isn't really headcanon. E.g Naruto vs goku, Naruto being solar lvl and goku being high multi so I say goku wins when in reality they've never fought. But I get what you mean by it isn't so straightforward. Like with characters gojo where people just used the stats pattern as to not use headcanon. E.g Gojo vs goku Gojo is like city- island and goku is high multi Goku has no way of touching gojo and gojo has no way of damaging goku so goku just wins by comparing stats.
@XAsh_black Bloodlusted is one factor out many that goes into a scenario. You even say based on how a character behaves. Behavior involves many actions and tendencies. How many of those can you assume before completely breaking Occam's razor? For example, people often say Goku beats Superman because Batman beat Superman and Goku beats Batman. Well Superman and Batman have fought under dozens of different scenarios with different results. Which scenario are you assuming Goku and Superman are fighting in for it to be exactly the same so it's not a false equivalent fallacy and why are we assuming Goku would have the same advantages as Batman? Comparing stats isn't headcanon. How you get to those stats usually is. E.g saying Naruto is solar level even though he has no solar level feat and Goku being high multi which is a completely fan made term based on something that doesn't even measure power. Those are headcanon.
@ndvct6087 1. No one in existences ever said goku beats superman because he beats batman and superman loses to batman. That's insane and if anyone truly said that and stood by that argument leave it. 2. The stats for those characters are gotten by calculating certain feats from the anime. Just like goku being high multi, he clashed with beers us and threatened to destroy a complex universe ( universe 7 ) its not headcanon, I'm just presenting what has happened in the anime but without pictures.
@ndvct6087 a universe isn't a fan made term. Neither is a multiverse, which goku can destroy based on feats in the anime. It's not really hard For E.g, baji in Tokyo revengers destroyed a wall. If I say he is wall level, does that mean I made the word "wall" and the word "level" up? No. I just gave them ranks based on pre-existing quantities .
@ndvct6087 Basically, your goku > Superman because goku > batman who has beaten Superman, is like you said false equivalency, so I advise you not to argue with people like that especially of they stand by it. The comparing stats, on the other hand, isn't headcanon. it's just calculating feats presented in the anime and giving an acceptable tier.
I don't hate the concept of powerscaling, in fact I too think it's fun. It's more the community that I hate, mainly the members who bash new/upcoming crossovers just because they don't believe one side should be able to contend with the other. Ex: Marvel recently announced a new Godzilla vs Avengers crossover comic (it being nearly 50 years since they last crossed over), and I've seen Marvel fanboys already calling it stupid because they believe that Godzilla is gonna get one-shotted by Hulk or Thor. Even though Godzilla is most certainly gonna be portrayed as a huge threat that the Avengers are gonna have to pull out all of the stops to beat.
@@XAsh_blackExactly. Comparing the characters in general is one thing, and bashing an official crossover due to not liking the idea of one side being able to put up a fight is another.
Ok...i am a power scaler. But as you can see, I'm also a godzilla fan. My side is the power scaling community is...different to most. Simply put, I'm on the Creature/monster scaling side. And for some reason, and it's something i don't see really in any other scaling media, the godzilla community is one of the few that put too much realism into them sometimes. There is a thought about if 1 version of godzilla is bigger, heavier, or taller, or any monster at all. They will always win. Now...if you look at the monsterverse from legendary, their godzilla's greatest feat is the hollow earth drill that with sub atomic destruction has a calculation for planet level. (He is much stronger from lore but I'll use this) this godzilla is 120 meters tall and there are some that swear up and down that he is one of the strongest Godzilla’s. Showa godzilla, 50 meters. This godzilla was stronger than the cannon zone fighter who BROKE A 4TH DIMENSIONAL PLANE AND KILLED A 4D KAIJU! But he's 50 meters and small so he loses to monsterverse. I don't see this line of thinking...anywhere else. No one is out here thinking that grear ape gohan from dbz is beating thanos because the giant monkey has longer arms, heavier, and just bigger. Literally i cannot find another part of this community that does this. (A guy named godzilla guy has kind of brought this wrong mentality into the fandom). Just wanted to rant a bit.
I've also noticed this with Kaiju scaling, it's odd but it's definitely a testament to the variety of calculation methodologies that different groups tend to lean towards.
Personally I do enjoy powerscaling, and of course it matters in alot of pieces of fiction, my only issue with it is when you have one character with alot of sources, let's say Flash from DC from the latest meme "0.00000001 petasecond" thingy that caused discourse on the hellscape that is twitter, and then try to powerscale it for a fight with anyone. Suddendly, all material depicting this character's strongest feats, even if they are by wildly different authors, and from wildly different stories, of equally varying quality and canonicity, now count. I find that an issue because, in that example of Flash, one dogshit author can write "Flash's speed and reaction time is 1 bajillion megajillion petakilometers per second", but then in a later story, without any handicap, another writer writes the same Flash cannot react to a gun's bullet for various reasons, in order to have compelling drama, not having and needing to take in account powerscaling for the story. And because of it, we're in this shitty balance where the authors are contradicting each other, and the powerscalers take either the dumb route of saying "Well then his highest feat MUST be 1 bajillion megajillion petakilometers per second for speed !" and disregard all other feats, or the other route of saying "Well then all guns in the verse are 1 bajillion megajillion petakilometers per second in speed !", making everything all outta wack without ever agreeing on what to pick and what not to accept when powerscaling someone. It's like a domino of "Ifs" that keep piling up, and in the end makes it so that someone takes a thing as objective so that he can just pick and choose Flash to be Omniversal to beat anyone he powerscales against, and use that same "objectivity" to belittle another character and lowball it just to win an argument.
I am a wtitter ( wattpad and not paid but still ) and i do write with power scalling in mind bc if krillin one shots all of super with 0 explanation it would not work because it contradict the previous power scalling of krillin When i wtite i have a rough estimate of what character can do what and what are the top tiers Like they can casually do this and if they try hard enough they destroy x. Just to remain consistent Also speed is hard bc I remember a cw flash épisode were he through himself lighting wich is mach 100+ and he is stated to Mach 2 .. so yeah when i wrote a scene when a character moved in a blink of an eye and it was way to fast i slowed the feat down
@majinIsaacor is people who don't have any idea of the actual chars scale with them picking favorite with them thinking it dumb when I pull out that this char actually just stomps realistically their preferred char
Yeah that's literally the biggest pattern I've seen with these people. They make a dumb take like Naruto beating Goku or something, and then act surprised when power scalers tell them they're wrong.
the reason I don't really like powerscaling (more of the toxic side of the fandom but whatever) is because I like - SCP (Its reputation offsite has been ruined because of annoying people constantly bringing it up in crossverse debates) - tensei slime (same as scp) - Dragon ball (kinda same as scp, except with the added flavor of it constantly being brought up in fan discussions) I find powerscalling fun sometimes, but a fandom (or parts of it) being both very active in powerscaling debate and annoying ruins the fun for everyone else
Powerscaling is really good and very interesting, there is basically no problem about it. The problem is not with powerscaling, but with people taking it too seriously, like those who can't respect your opinion and start insult you if you disagree with them about which character is stronger than which character, and it really becomes toxic. Powerscaling is like anything, there has to be a limit. We are talking about fiction so it should be fun, entertaining to debate about it, today I see too much disrespect between those who discuss this, and because of this, people have a bad opinion/vision of powerscaling. Powerscaling's community needs to grow up.
1: If power scaling doesn't matter why doesn't Krillin just immediately beat Frieza, Cell, Buu, Beerus, Zamasu and Jiren? 2: Because they're all way stronger than him 1: You just power scaled
I think it because those people though Power scaling is just cross verse scaling. Author might not care about other verse power but they probaly care a lot about inverse scaling for their story
You don't like something doesn't mean other people can't enjoy power scaling but the people who do enjoy power scaling can't just go and yell or scream at people making the show or people saying that this character can beat what character if that person thinks it explain why the long and get over it
I respect your perspective, but I want to say, I don't agree with a few things you said in the video. First, power scaling is not the same as power escalation and threat escalation. When sombody says "writers don't think about power scaling", they aren't referring to that characters power within the story, rather, they are referring to the fact that writers aren't considering how their character will interact with another character from a different story. The video from flazefire that you showed says as much. Second, a lot of people from the power scaling community often look at media only from a power scaling perspective and thus usually take abstract statements and try to scale them. An example from my owne discussions is Slay the Princess and Omori, two games that are not ment to be scaled and have a lot of symbolism and Metaphor within them, are put under a power scaling lense and turned into a glorified circle jerk. I know these are anecdotes, but all you have to do is look at the Vs Battle wiki articles of both to see what I'm talking about. I hope this doesn't come off as too annoying, but as a person that is still, at least partially, connected to the power scaling community, I have seen some of the best and worst parts of the hobby and when it gets bad, it gets really bad.
Naturally, the problem does not come from the tool, but rather from the use of the tool itself. One of the biggest problems with many power scalers is how little outliers are taken into account by them. Basically, they buff a character excessively for a specific event which doesn't even define the character's power since it is not repeated later on/ever again and they directly have consistently worse feats thorough the series
If I may share my opinion as a non power scaler, who does have some issues with power scaling in general, and give at least my perspective on each point. "The Author didn't consider it" - I think it's obvious that the author does to some degree consider how strong one character is, either in general or in relation to others. But I don't think most authors consider it to the extent that power scalers seem to. I have seen so many "faster than light" characters fail to react to normal mundane stuff that should not be possible if someone can move and react that fast. "Stan Lee Quote" - I agree here, my reasoning is that media is full of weaker characters overcoming someone stronger than themselves one way or another, Venom is strictly stronger than Spider-Man, but will inevitably lose because when they fight Spider-Man is the protagonist. One thing that I'm glad Hunter X Hunter brought up was how who wins =/= who is stronger, there are so many factors in play, including how much you know about your opponent, how you fight, what state of mind you're in, and on and on, that can all affect the outcome, who is stronger is literally just one factor. It's also why I wouldn't accept "Goku is stronger than Vageeta because he beat Broly when Vageeta didn't", it is good evidence for that, but doesn't prove it on its own. "Community" - This is where I have most of my issues. You're right that the community's behavior doesn't mean that power scaling itself is a problem, but it does reflect poorly on it since the community are the ones doing the power scaling. Like if 80% of everyone who did math was skewing the results to what they wanted it to be, that wouldn't make math in itself wrong, but it would mean I wouldn't trust any mathematician. I suspect the reason why there is more toxicity in the power scaling community isn't because most of these people shared a power scaling opinion and got dunked on (not saying that doesn't happen or isn't a factor), but I think a part of it is just the argumentative nature of it. Who wins in XvY, what feats are which level, how do anti-feats factor in, how meaningful is a hax, it's all so subjective that it encourages people arguing with each other, while they're all convinced that they're right and their favourite guy stomps no diff. "Flawed Perception" - I am someone who has an issue with characters moving faster than light. My reasons for this are twofold: -first because power scalers are the ones who bring science and math into the equation, "X can throw a rock Y big, which means they must be able to lift Z tons" or "X punched so hard they left a crater Y in diamater, meaning they punch with Z force" you can't bring in real world physics when it suits you and then claim that fictional worlds work differently when it doesn't, if moving faster than light doesn't cause them to be crushed under infinite pressure, then that giant rock is just "lot of pounds" not some actual numerical value unless one is explicitly given in the series. -second I can accept magic and stuff because those get explained, or are at least left as mystical mysterious forces and are less called upon. In particular my issue with faster than light movement is it makes no sense how most of these characters can even see when they're moving so fast that light can't reach them, and this is often called attention too by the series when someone moves too fast to see, which more clearly demonstrates that yes they are using light to see. For instance in Dragon Ball, I think Piccolo mentors to Gohan to focus on energy signatures in order to watch a fight instead of relying on his eyes (doesn't explain how they avoid crashing into inanimate objects, but this can work to a degree), but then that concept is turned on its head when Frieza who couldn't detect energy signatures can somehow fight perfectly fine at what must be massively faster than light speeds. If it gets explained how someone moves faster than light, then I don't care about it. Even if it's just a vague thing like say Flash's "speed force" or something, and without any more explenation I buy it completely, there's a magic involved that explicitly works to make them move super fast and operate normally at that speed. When Goku moves at faster than light speed, there is no magic that explains how he is functioning normally, he just is. My biggest issues really started way back with the first Goku v Superman Death Battle, for reasons I'm glad you called out in this video. When I saw thousands of comments and videos, arguing pedantic details, highballing this, lowballing that, using obscure one time cases that never got repeated, and making assumption after assumption about how things worked in order to explain why their guy wins (I was team Goku and even the DBZ fans were putting me off). It has made it very difficult to take power scaling seriously, and while not universal and not to the same extent as back then, this is often the same mentality I see whenever I see someone power scale. Since then I have always considered what an author's intent for the character is beyond just what their feats are. I don't have issues with anyone responding, but I won't be arguing anything. My point was to just share my perspective, not to argue a case or change minds. If you think I have a good or bad point, I'm happy to read what you have to say but don't expect me to engage much more than a paragraph if anything beyond this.
My biggest problem with power scaling are concepts, specifically platonic concepts. Using platonic concepts to scale characters in fiction to outerversal is very shaky because most fictional verses don't follow the idea of platonism or even know what it is. For example everyone says Arceus from Pokémon is outerversal because of Arceus having dominion over realms that "have no concept of space nor time" however in order for this argument to work you would have to prove that they are referring to PLATONIC concepts otherwise this statement means nothing as it could just be referring to the regular physical properties of time and saying that the mere thought of them also do not exist in such a dimension. Another example is Parallax from DC who is stated to be the "concept" of fear. Parallax himself is never stated to be related to Plato's theory of platonism and he even has a physical form which platonic concepts do not have. When Parallax is defeated the concept of fear still exists afterwards which further proves he is not a platonic concept and is more of an embodiment since platonic forms need to exist in order for the thing they're the concept of to exist otherwise they can't work as concepts. When a character is stated to be above the "concept" of something they are most likely referring to the regular existence of said concept otherwise it scales nowhere without proof.
@@starjones7050 concepts and dimentionality itself scale nowhere because humans can't perceive 4d or high So all these 5d,6d,9d,105d are bs stupidity My point is if a character has destroyed Universes he is Universal+ If he hasn't destroyed any universes till date or beaten anyone who has destroyed Universes effortlessly at once he isn't Universal So on for multiversal And outerversal doesn't even make sense Power scaling maximum limit should be multiversal as that's what we can see on a paper Drawing something on a random theory doesn't even scale anywhere
Dude power scaling sucks most of the time, cause people like to confront characters between different franchises. And they love to measure with real life physics, one time feats that the author obviously didn't stop to think about the implications. Like someone who's street level and often fights common dudes, stops a small meteor for some reason, now this consistently street level character after applying real life physics, now he can move at super Sonic speeds and this feat means that he's able to obliterate a skyscraper. Even though in the actual series he's never doing anything close to this
So? It’s a fun harmless hobby. There’s problem people in every community ever. Comparing different characters from different franchises is no different from comparing an all time boxer to an all time MMA fighter. It’s just for fun and a way to show your love for a series or passion. Power scaling doesn’t suck you just don’t like it.
@SpectorLKM I didn't say all power scaling sucks, I myself enjoy me some in same universe power scaling for fun, as long as the person making it doesn't get too technical with realism and arbitrary numbers, (like saying this punch that destroyed a mountain is certain amount of newtons of force) The power scaling I say it sucks and often gets more attention is the one I was describing is too inconsistent and it's so subjective it really doesn't make sense at all, people picking and choosing one time feats and applying real physics to confirm their own bias. I dislike it and say it sucks, cause once you take out physics formulas and start guessing the volume of a rock or speed of a certain feat and treat it like you discovered the actual power and capabilities of a fictional character, you're way inside your own ass to say it's just for fun.
@@jorgerincon6874 I mean I sorta get your point but that’s the one of the fun parts of power scaling. Yeah it’s not concrete and you have to make many assumptions but it’s just a fun hobby people do. It doesn’t suck because people calculate a feat and get a number, if the numbers make sense and are reasonably assumed then who cares. Even if it isn’t they that’s just bad and incompetent, not actively sucking in a harmful way. Same Universe scaling is cool and all but the fun part of power scaling is seeing how two characters from separate universes stack up against each other. It is simply way more fun and interesting to analyze Superman vs Goku over Goku vs Vegeta. Like yeah people take it seriously, just like many people take any hobby or passion seriously. Also why is it being inconsistent and subjective bad? That’s bound to happen when we understand and discover more things. People interpret things differently, hence why we have a diverse amount of opinions in the first place. Like obviously it won’t make much sense if you don’t look into it, that’s how everything works. If you understand why there is variation in scaling and how that happens, then it wouldn’t be confusing. Also scalers (in general) don’t just guess stuff. They have reasons for applying numbers to feats or items, mainly with in verse or real world reference, such as X rock being similar to Y rock in real life meaning we can assume X rock is similar in volume and weight to Y rock. Is it perfect? No but it’s trial and error until you get something better, which is literally how everything works. Obviously power scaling is silly and dumb but saying crossverse scaling sucks is harsh.
Power scaling the psudoscience with its stupid "hyper outerversal, 8 dimensional faster than infinite speed" is stupid. Having a sense of the power of a character is just good writing advice. Using an instance of a character doing something impressive to prove that they are strong is good. Using vague statements and things that barely make any sense and should never be considered when writing to wank a character to high hell is bad.
My main issue with power scaling is when it's so simplistic that you can determine the winner solely based on who has more power, reducing conflicts to a mere comparison of numbers. Don’t get me wrong-I enjoy plenty of anime that relies on power scaling, and even in the fiction book I’m writing, I incorporate it to some degree because it reflects a natural aspect of reality. However, introducing strategic complexity makes battles far more engaging and dynamic. The most memorable fights, for me, are those where the protagonist defeats a stronger opponent through intelligence and by overcoming weaknesses with strategy. The strongest doesn’t always have to win against the weaker; unpredictability adds depth to the narrative and keeps it exciting. If everything is resolved purely through power scaling, there’s no thrill in rooting for the protagonist when you already know they’ll win just because they’re the strongest.
I think power scaling has its use and it’s fun, but the problem comes when participating in it becomes the main/only way you enjoy lots of media (namely super-powered stuff, but also most things combative). For example, lots of people know gohan has tons of potential to be super strong. The problem for me comes when people look at gohan only for his power, and completely ignore his character. Gohan literally doesn’t want to fight; he’s not a fighter. Yet because he has the potential to be, probably, the strongest in his verse (excluding the g.o.d.’s and angels), people bash on him for not training. Ofc, moderation and critical thinking fixes the problem, but when intense power scaling is so attractive, I think this still needs to be said.
A show almost always sets these bars themselves. An early encounter to show how far behind our hero is, a literal ranking like structure, purposefully never letting some characters fight so the audience is left to argue over who's stronger, Not even showing our main villain but hearing talks about them to show how far the journey is and how much stronger our heroes need to become. It is baked in
I always find it weird when battle shonen fans hate on powerscaling, like its litteralty a core part of the series your reading/watching and talked about every chapter
Most people who hate power scaling do so because their favorite character loses. I mean, I get it. It can suck when your guy loses, but you've gotta face the facts. There are a lot of characters out there who do, in fact, beat Goku. Had to come to terms with that when I was a kid, now I argue for fun and not because I'm raging because I'm mad my guy lost. edit: Death Battle can go straight to HIFL though. They absolutely suck at it on every level, and every video is made purely to generate clicks without any regard for the actual power of the characters involved. They'll pull different random numbers out of their asses within the same video for the same feat. Whatever pisses people off the most so they'll get engagement and will be blessed by the great and mighty algorithm with more views.
Notice how nothing in the Stan Lee video discourages his fans from debating amongst themselves about who would win in a fight. It’s about him getting annoyed at people asking him that question specifically. Stan didn’t debunk power scaling, he was just feed up with people asking him the same questions again and again.
100% correct
FINALLY, THANK YOU!!!
Someone that gets what he meant
Also his point was not ignore power in the story he said that isn't the determinator of who wins. OPM lost a fight in his comics why he was disqualified from a tournament does that prove he is weaker then his opponent no he lost because of the rules of the tournament
Good to know ig 👍
And I loved that he said the winner is who ever the writer decided who should win is
Power scaling is kinda necessary if the writer wants their story to be consistent. Imagine you read 20 issues of Spider-Man lifting/throwing cars, dodging missiles, taking hits that level half of NY, etc. Then in issue 21 he gets knocked out by a mugger w a glass bottle. Would you not go “wtf how did THAT beat him??” Having no sense of scale is basically mashing two action figures together. Entertaining for a while but if anyone can beat anyone there’s no real stakes
usually when i think of power scaling i think specifically of fans debating the powers of certain characters. obviously an author has to consistently powerscale their own characters or it kind of falls apart.
@@robocatssj3theofficial it often does fall apart especially with Marvel & DC
That actuallly has happen though
Dont think anyone refers to writing
When talking of disliking power scalers
Power scalers
Just say characters win cause tropes
But fans do it for any number of reasons. . and included in them is understanding what the characters are meant to be able to do anyway @@robocatssj3theofficial
My favorite take on why power scaling is bad is that we take the characters and disregard the story of said characters. And it’s like “we picked the match because of the story and how similar the characters are”
I had a whole section that I cut out, but I talk about why usually the most competent scalers also know the stories the best
@ exactly to know the full extent of the character strength you got to know the full story
pretty sure death battle matches characters up based on their similarities in character and in story, and they sometimes have the worst scaling possible.
The whole point of matchups is that we understand the characters to a point where we wanna see how similar stories stack up in terms of power creep. We didn't put up Goku vs Superman for the bland emotionless reason of seeing them fight, but to see how similar characters could defeat one another.
@@opadripstop the cap lmfao
superman wouldn't have such deeply emotional talk he usually have about his alien heritage and how heroism shaped him into a symbol of humanity greatest aspect while doing heat vision and freezing combos on a bored out base super goku
People also forget that if the power progression in the story doesn’t make sense, that’s just bad writing
If the batman and Flash writers could read, they would be very upset I'm sure
You've been watching too much shonen. 99% of fiction couldn't care less of about power progression.
@@ndvct6087 maybe because 99% of fiction isn’t about power progression😂 that’s why you don’t see people having serious debates about gag characters fighting because that’s not what their story is about
@@MAJJASTAK lmaooo
@@angelotantoine6434 So you agree you're completely wrong for saying "if the power progression in the story doesn’t make sense, that’s just bad writing." Glad we got that settled. Now move it forward and do better.
I feel like Stan Lee’s comment only applies for comics for the most part because you’ll have a character that’s consistently shown to be street tier be capable of fighting someone that’s cosmic level due to prep time or bloodlust as an example but when it comes to other pieces of fiction you can’t say the author decides who he wants to win without establishing why this character beats that character or else it would be bad writing
Yeah that's what I also point out
I respectfully disagree, characters in say, dragon ball, have been somewhat shown to be consistent in power, some have and some haven’t. Let’s take Hercule for example, he posses no ki and is strong by regular human standards, but is completely fodder to our main cast. And some “powerscalers” argue that he could solo other verses that are MUCH stronger than him as an individual, just for “dodging” or “reacting” to kid buu’s attacks. Or the fact that he survived an attack from Cell, both of which were CLEARLY played off for gags. But these powerscalers take EVERYTHING in the show at face value and when they shouldn’t, because “feats” clearly contradict what the story is trying to tell. Sorry for the rant here, but I don’t think the powerscalers community should be prohibited or anything, or that powerscalers themselves are terrible content creators or anything of the sort, rather, I believe they should actually LOOK into the story for an accurate power scaling video, and cross power scaling will always be flawed no matter what, as people have multiple interpretations of a characters power, especially if the author is not specific on it. So, in my opinion, Stan Lee’s comment DOES apply to all media that covers a power system, or even some that don’t. For example arguing that Mickey Mouse is outversal or something because he broke the fourth wall and destroyed a universe or he erased his entire dimension, or whatever. These type of things are meant for laughs at how ridiculous the situation is, and are not to be take literally, which is something that power scalers do too often. Or that same Mickey Mouse tripping and hurting himself, is called an “anti feat” as it contradicts his “outerversal” power shown 200 episodes ago, this just proves my point. In all anime or comics or whatever, the writers don’t usually pay much attention to power and simply try to tell a compelling story, sometimes with big and cool fights that are meant to shut your brain off. If the writers don’t care about consistency, then probably neither should you. Thank you for reading and I am open for feedback and/or constructive criticism on this topic.
@ Yeah no writers do care about how strong their characters are or who would win in the fights of their story because if that wasn’t the case why do you think toriyama established power levels for example? Why do you think power rankings exist within different shonen like for example this character in naruto who is strong can be called kage level, this strong character in JJK is considered special grade , or this strong character in bleach is considered captain level, etc etc. point is saying scaling doesn’t matter is blatantly false when it’s a fundamental aspect of writing that’s needed for any piece of media that involves action/fights with stakes
The writer decides not the fans ok
Stan Lee comment also only applies for stuff like vs. animations (that don't do powerscaling), but it doesn't work for online powerscaling arguments.
I dont get the hate for powerscaling, its not like the community having flaws should be the reason u hate powerscaling itself, which is most ppl’s reason for hating on powerscaling
Well said 👍
@@undoiing1549 bingo
Like make it make sense
Because most of the time, it's pretty much a waste of time.
Its okay but the thing I hate is when im having a normal conversation with a guy and someone barges in with powerscaling stuff. Like I remember being in argument with why Meruem had a better character development than Gojo and the dude just says "buh buh Gojo beats Meruem low-diff!".
Can't have normal conversation with those people
@@sans101 any hobby is a waste of a time if you apply that logic
The reason I like power scaling is that it sheds light on how powerful some characters are like how Kirby is mostly not seen as strong but when is looked and researched would be considered very strong and it’s just fun to see on how the characters that you love can get strong to improve or overcome there obstacles that in there way and I always fun to see
People get blown away that powerscaling might be for fun lmao
@@lonkstakes how about ghost rider, he's also really strong aswell and some people overlook him or downplay him which is sad cause he's a really strong fictional character
@CthulhuMoonKnightSolosAnimeim think refer more in joke characters or character look no danguerous and look how strong are and this can beat gods or superhumans its funny (sportucus, kirby, spongebob, unclegranpa, and others)
@@gabrielmbx9253
I’d like to add MLP to this list. The fact that I can confidently say that Twilight solos the Naruto verse will never not be funny to me.
@@thehappysaiyan9829The fact that Princess Celestia is multiversal is quite funny ngl
I'm honestly really glad that you made this video since people hate power scaling so much for some reason when it's just comparing two characters in a fight,and that it disrespects the characters somehow? And how it's all about stats and not the story.but like people power scale usually because they're familiar with the series and wonder who will actually win without a writers perspective.and even then a character could win or lose because of their personality and how they act in their story so characters aren't being disrespected they're just being analyzed and debated in arguments just like story or character analyzes
Say that to the gojo glazers
@@Gettinoverbarrie🤣
Agree with you wholeheartedly.
I think the people who say "Powerscaling is bad" are usually referring to crossverse power scaling and not inverse powerscaling since inverse is less reliant on calcs or being on a specific tier of power or speed. But it is still powerscaling as you pointed out.
"Author doesn't think of Powerscaling". You addressed it but to add my thoughts to it: I think the Author thinks about powerscaling in general terms. If the author has a character stated to be light speed and then another character is faster, clearly the author is saying "this character is faster than light". What the Author probably isn't thinking about is how much faster than light said character is (and that's not to say calcs to find out are invalid, just that the Author likely didn't think of it).
To add to the Stan Lee quote, context can change the course of a battle. Hulk is stronger than spider-man by a large degree, but you want Spidey to win. How do you do it? Well in one story, Spidey told a joke which caused the Hulk to turn back into Bruce Banner. Spidey "won" the fight but the context heavily impiles or outright states that he would not have won a normal fight which supports powerscaling (plus fans get mad when bad writing causes bad powerscaling).
This reminds of similar "shipping is bad" arguements which fellow youtuber Broku also pointed out. It's not one-to-one, but the same people who say "Shipping is bad" say "Peter Parker and MJ should still be married"
@@kieranprior3873 to your second paragraph. DC and Marvel authors do think of their power scaling not in general terms, haven't you seen recently Thor and Superman author trying to make them stronger upping each other
And then the same types of people that say power scaling sucks will say Saitama solos fiction
True
@@SD8bit_ double standard
They wanna comment on something they're not a part of
They're also the types to hold polls on who would win in a fight, which is in a way, power scaling.
You cannot scale Saitama since his Character is based on the ultimate things you could Imagine. Hence, a parody of OP Characters and people just don't understand or don't want to accept that.
@@dgreater1 What
Power Scaling was made for Sportacus once he gets his hands on an apple, it was destiny.
Biggest question in power scaling history right now does the apple amp stacks like he can eat multiple of them with it stacking would Popeye spinach also stack
The only thing that makes me cringe is when people try powerscaling gag characters. Just cause a character breaks a manga panel doesnt mean they are beyond 4 dimensional. Its just a silly thing the author does with no actual affect on the story being told.
I agree with you, and gag scenes are not a measure of their power, it is only made to make us laugh.
It’s 50/50 from my experience. Powerscaling in general is important. When you want find out how powerful a certain character is it’s definitely important but it definitely gets to a point where a lot of scalers can either be biased or flat out wrong. Like if it’s a vs debate most of the time they’ll try to upscale their favorite character while occasionally downplaying the other. Overall I used to make powerscaling posts on my insta but stopped because I didn’t want to have hour long debates on fictional characters because of them would just get out of hand. Overall tho I really do think powerscaling in general is important and most things in fiction need to have some lvl of that like having consistent feats and statements.
Because it’s fun. Though, I hate how people try to dunk on Powerscalers especially when they end up doing the same thing.
Maybe the true power was the scales we made along the way
The scaling is the power we made along the way
What’s funny is that many people’s criticisms with “powerscaling” isn’t powerscaling itself, it’s with the community.
Don't care what some people have to say, power scaling is fucking awesome
Hell yeah
Obviously narrative and character building is most important but Powerscaling is a pretty good way of showing how much a character has developed! They work hand in hand
@@shettygaming7280 if someone’s random comment under a video gets you mad, that says more about you than the person bro 😭
@@shettygaming7280 If you have the right to deny people their right to powerscale, then I have the right to deny your right to share your opinion online. It's only fair... or do you suddenly not like the idea of restricting other people's rights for your own completely arbitrary, emotionally driven and poorly thought out reasons? You may "want" powerscaling to stop, but that's a ridiculous demand that no one reasonable is going to listen to. If you don't like it, get lost.
I also hate those types of people who think powerscaling is something new or something that’s never happened before. Like I’m sure people in the 1950s were debating Batman vs Superman just like we do today😂
Now, let's give a good example on how non-toxic power scaling can be by giving an old Question a new Twist:
What versions of Goku & Superman would be needed for the closest Battle possible?
Saiyan Saga Goku and some of the live action TV show supermen are close
@lonkstakes Imma be honest, I forgot about the live action ones.
But I'd actually pay to see that Battle.
Mid roshi training kid goku vs start of series superman😂
@@yamato9753Genuinely my guy I honestly think dceu superman vs end of og db or Saiyan saga Goku are the most close to be a actual debate
Any main DC era of superman from silver to gold to pre to post crisis to new 52 to rebirth to current is way too high
Dragonball evolution goku vs man of steel superman. 😂
"Power scaling sucks" the same people who make unfair match ups with chacters that aren't even close realistically
"mui goku vs batman"
@@Oxdeiim Hold on now I did that
@@lonkstakes nah I'm talking like something insanely unrealistic like goku vs chainsaw man
@@Oxdeiim ok look-
Ive seen someone say deku beats mui goku😂
"Powerscaling sucks because blabla" bruh it's just an hobby, it only sucks when it became a excuse for people to be toxic as fuck but that works for literally every thing. Those are the same people that say "gaming isnt fun anymore" bruh it literally is? Maybe the problem is just yours and that's all.
EXCELLENT LONK'S TAKES WORK.
And I even see a guy who makes a powerscaling hate video just straight up admitting: "Yeah, I am purposefully insulting your hobby, what are you gonna do?"
Powerscaling isn’t a bad thing and I think people don’t like it based off the people who do it. Some people take it way too seriously and act like you committed a cardinal sin against them and their bloodline if you disagree with them. Powerscaling is should be more of a side thing and should be done more for fun and not be taken too seriously
@minihatsunemikufan I mean have you tried making your hobby sound insightful
"an hobby"
“ I don’t like your opinion so this entire debate is wrong”😭
these days people like to do videos saying like "this is shit because(...)" and "im gonna show you the truth" or something like that, they act like they're super smart or whatever
False intullectualism
And it's usually just complaining because they don't get it or don't like the Twitter threads they've seen.
I hate power scaling because of the people who internalise it and make it their only personality, like if I say I like Naruto, some random person will almost always say something along the lines of “Oh but Luffy is stronger so that makes him better” or “Naruto isn’t even the strongest in his verse” like they are just haters and can’t let people enjoy stuff and always a total buzz kill and make the character 1d, if they aren’t strong they are inherently bad
I hate people who hate on power scaling because they judge the entire hobby based on some toxic people they interacted with. They think because someone acted like an ass justifies them hating on a group who for the vast majority is just having fun with their favorite characters. It's an incredibly shallow and insulting way of interacting with people and they seem to need to tell people who are talking about powerscaling how much they hate powerscaling.
@ k
Powerscaling is essencial for this kind of story, however, careless writing and ignoring logic doesn't do the community any favors.
The most pedantic, annoying and argumentative power scalers are typically the youngest and least mature
Whenever I see people hate on power scaling, it’s usually the same points and usually you can usually level those stuff on anything fandom related.
Like shipping can be called dumb if the person said ‘the relationship that will happen with character X is the one that the writer wants!’
Without power scaling how would i be able to know SpongeBob can whopp most anime verses
spongebob does NOT have consistent power. one second he's struggling to lift two teddy bears on a stick, the next he's erased the entire universe by pulling a thread. trying to consistently scale any gag character like that is a fool's errand.
@@robocatssj3theofficial and that's what toon force is in a nutshell
@@robocatssj3theofficial Spoggebob unraveled the Universe in seconds Once. Ive seen harder reaches from powerscalers
Going off the X character can’t go faster than light thing something that makes me mad is when power scalers then take the fact that a character is going faster than light in order to give them durability or ap feats based off it using physics.
This is fine if thats established to be true in the story, but I get your point
The JoJo fanbase in particular is infamous for this.
Inconsistent power scaling is the same as inconsistent character interactions or any other story point.
Imagine day one a superhero can fly fast enough to save people 2 miles away before a bomb explodes, then the story end with them not being fast enough to save a loved one in the exact same situation… you’d say “but the superhero did they already” the story would be unsatisfying
The same way if characters were introduced at the start of the story, then at the end there’s a massive character reveal and the MC is acting like they don’t know someone they previously met. You’d wonder why it doesn’t make sense.
Power scaling is just a consistency of a different type of story point
I think people don’t like how detailed power scaling can be, as it sometimes means they have to do some work to understand the story being told. For example, they’re happy if it’s simple as the story makes sense that way. Then a seasoned power scaler reveals the inconsistencies to this individual and it ruins the show for them
Its kinda like disliking football because you dont know the rules
Banger analogy
Facts
Ikyfl 😂. Power scaling will never be comparable to football. Ever. Stop being delusional.
That's a good ass point and someone who doesn't like sports
I just prefer normal exercises to get stronger
Pretty much. 👊👊👌👌
The problem with power scaling at least for me is how they do it.
Its like for starters a character that lives in another dimension is automatically dimensional level which is dumb because I live on a planet doesn't mean I'm planetary level.
Two the character themselves, like yeah if they go all out they can theoretically kill some people , but most of the time they don't do that.
Like with spider-man he sometimes does powerful stuff but it takes a lot of planning, someone gives him that, or its a writer who doesn't understand the character and wanks him up when they shouldn't have.
The reason most people hate power scaling is due to the community is Very toxic and biased that is why most people hate it
While true alot communities are like this. Hell people who just breakdown the narrative of animes and the such can be toxic.
I mean I can’t blame than but I like power scaling still so when I got into a toxic debate I would mostly just walk away as it ain’t worth it
I’m not against powerscaling. I think a lot of people who don’t like it base it off moreso the people surrounding it. I agree there are people who take powerscaling way too seriously and take any disagreements for their scaling way too personally. Some even think that if the character they like more loses it somehow makes their series and character worse when that isn’t the case. I prefer AoT over Dragon Ball and guess what? Goku soloing their entire verse doesn’t make the story any less amazing and the characters worse.
It’s a hobby that should be done for fun and shouldn’t be taken too seriously.
Hey, I already wrote a comment, but after a while I remembered another reason why I don't like power scaling, or more precisely, things that result from power scaling. What I mean here is how power scaling affects how people perceive the series.
It's about the phenomenon where the series is not necessarily about fights and only contains fights, but due to certain elements, the topic of "can you beat this character" becomes very common in the fandom to the point that people forget what the series is about.
I mainly mean three series: Dragon Ball, Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken, and SCP (There are other series that suffer from this, but I will mention mainly these three)
Dragon Ball doesn't suffer from this that much because... well, it can't be denied that it is a series about fighting.But due to the popularity and eternal debates that Goku can beat someone, everyone has certain expectations towards this series and only thinks about the fights. The original Dragon Ball especially suffers from this as it is more of an adventure and due to the lack of destroying planets, people are disappointed with it and don't even try to give it a chance.And when some deeper themes appear in the series, people often ignore them because it's not what they came for.
The situation with Slime is much worse. Most of the stuff you'll see on the internet about this series is how powerful Rimuru is and that he can beat Goku and so on. Which again sets people up for this series with certain expectations, but there is a problem. Unlike Dragon Ball, Slime is not about fighting at all. This is a political fantasy about building a nation and all fights have a political context, mainly war between nations, but even then we do not forget about politics.This isn't a series designed for people who want fights on screen, but with all the talk about how powerful Rimuru is, people come to watch it just to see it. And the worst thing is that they won't get it anyway because people talk about Rimuru from the light novel, in the anime he is still far from the level he presents in the source material.This makes them angry and criticize the anime for things it was never designed to do.
And then there's SCP.....jesus christ. This series is already struggling with the problem of being called a creepypasta and being lumped in with other scary things when SCP abandoned this theme a long time ago and now it is one big writing universe.And now we have to deal with the problem of further discussions about which SCPs are the strongest and whether they could defeat Goku.
If people at least used these newer SCPs it would be survivable, but no. Just like people who reduce SCPs to "scary monsters", here we are using the SAME SCP ALL THE TIME. SCP 173, 096, 682, 106 over and over again. These SCPs are about 10 years old, let's finally let them die a natural death and not keep clinging to them as if they were the only SCPs in this series.
I recently became interested in Analog Horror and your videos about power scaling them were really interesting, but only as a curiosity. I don't want it to suddenly turn into a debate about who is the strongest, where this is not what these series are about. And I have already seen many videos on this topic.
I don't think that power scaling shouldn't be there at all, but I think that it has become too common these days and that's why some series like the one above suffer from it.And the fact that many people don't know how to do power scaling at all and just want their favorite character to win doesn't help either.
I didnt read everything but yeah, I was listening to a rimuru fanfic on marvel. out of 10~ comments 3 were about rimuru's power and that not even with the gems they would beat him and blablabla. with scp because I experienced it myself, I thought they were ocs made for the pws, but then you realize that there are thousands of stories and scps that do not talk about its strength even once.
The fanfic Was bs btw
I don't like powerscaling comic characters only because of how inconsistent they are
The Stan Lee quote is interesting because I always interpreted it as him saying the winner of a fight is whoever the writer justifies winning. For example, if there was a fight between movie thanos and hawkeye the writer would give hawkeye the infinity gauntlet to justify hawkeye winning instead of just writing it too where hawkeye wins by shooting him with a regular arrow.
Except it doesn't even have to go that way by itself. Deadpool so many times could just be written to kill someone for whatever reason. It doesn't even have to make sense for it to happen. It just has to make sense for people to treat it as more than just a joke.
😭😭😭😭😭
A great example of power scaling being important is one of the best movies of all time: Terminator 2.
Arnold wanted to toss Robert Patrick around but he was told no cause the T-1000 is pure metal and the T-800 isn't. Part of the whole conflict is about how the new Terminator is stronger and more versatile than the previous one.
People be mad for individuals having a nerdy hobby. Dude just let me calculate how fast Goku is while taking a shit like leave me in peace.
Based.
I just don't like how People will be toxic and attack You for a take You have. Most People in the community aren't exactly considerate when They disagree, They often come on extremely strong with no regard for Anyone which makes it feel You're being attacked. I joined your server once and said Iceman washes Goku. Keep in mind Iceman is an omega level mutant which puts him on the same tier as other omega level mutants. There are even instances of him harming and take hits from other omega level mutants who have insane feats. Feats that Goku does not scale to in the slightest. He also has some ridiculous feats himself, again that Goku does not even remotely scale to. Like freezing hell which is an outerversal+ realm. Yet when I said Iceman washes Goku I was instantly jumped by multiple People. Telling me I was wrong and that I'm clearly just a hater. People disagreeing isn't what bothers me it's just that I would like to share my thoughts without being attacked for it. If They think I'm wrong They don't have to go about it in such a way. That's why People turn away from power scaling. If You can't see that then I'm not sure what to say.
Didn't you tell someone to "never attempt scaling again" for saying Kratos beats Superman?
@IsaiahJones-rw1pc Yeah because that's the dumbest take of all time and if Anyone did even a tiny fraction of research They would know Superman would curb stomp Kratos into the ground and it's not even remotely close. Not in the slightest. Kratos has absolutely zero win cons. If You have takes like that then yeah. You shouldn't ever attempt scaling again because that's absolutely horrendous. I would say it all over again if I could. That's how terrible that take was.
@HelperKaiGlenn so you're a hypocrite
10:59 GOD HATE THIS ONE SO MUCH
i'm sure jojo fans are very receptive to lightspeed statements
@ GOD I WISH MAN😭
Worst of all,these are also the same people who say that using physics equations to calculate feats is stupid because it's fiction😭🙏🏻
@@judemanr7814 Yeah, they're just missing the point of it all, at that point or were not interested in the discussion.
I've had that happen to me. There's this character who was explicitly mentioned could snap the multiverse out of existence if he had just one bad day, but nah...he can't even be subsonic because physics says your body would break down at that speed, despite having literal magic and is a literal god throwing nukes and battling Lovecraftian gods. 😂
I power scale for fun, I've scaled numerable Marvel, DC, and Dragon Ball characters
In my opinion the Journey to Eternity verse is No.1 in power scaling. You will need to research about it but due to the author not wanting people who only care about power scaling to read it he took it off the internet, now only a few copies of it exist (it still is being manufactured but you have to know the right people to get it) you can’t even call it JtE verse as its cosmology scales above omniverses,existences,everything. (Basically he had to creates hundreds of new terms to describe the effects of the attacks such as one of the characters introduced in the third book has a omniversal destruction and creation attack) yes this sounds so stupid but the author makes amazing fights and characters. You should research it, and yes the protagonist does beat goku, Saitama, Rimuru, Anos etc all at the same time
Power scaling has issues when you have people going "X character is star level or galaxy level". That stuff is usually annoying since it ignores specific circumstances going on as to why events happen, like Superman shattering dimensions when he fought his Earth 2 counterpart in Infinite Crisis as if the entire multiverse wasn't destabilized at the time, or characters being faster than light because they dodged energy blasts even though said energy blasts are interacting with objects with mass as if they themselves have mass, which means some characters aren't actually reacting at the speed of light.
Powerscalling is for those who have patience or become the Joker
Fr
So basically critical thinking is important to all communities, I've seen multiple sides of this conversation.
It's honestly just fun too me and others, which is why we do it 🎉
The main thing I can't stand about power scalers in general is the ones that either willfully ignore essential evidence relating to a character or setting, or intentionally misrepresent the characters or evidence purely to make the argument go one way or the other in their favor.
Not going to point fingers here, but some of the most popular groups on RUclips are massively guilty of this kind of behavior where they will make one person seem massively weaker than existing evidence suggests purely to make their favorite character win.
They dislike it because their fav character loses to goku
This is what they might be talking about when they say they don't like powerscaling
Goku dies twice by someone weaker than him
Maybe it's cause it's plain annoying
Yeah the toxicity side is what made me hate it a little bit, but power scaling is still fun though.
Honestly, power scaling is a double-edged sword. Its fun to talk about and engage in, but there are also those who take it WAY too seriously.
As someone who takes power scaling on a casual/concrete level, it is fine on occasion. While there are those that are toxic, I understand that those people aren't a reflection of everyone.
I think the other issue that people have is that there are people who HEAVILY push their own narratives and scaling on characters where it does makes sense, but 9/10 times, the character is 100,000% not the level those people think the character is, given what's shown on screen, written down, or illustrated on. And they try and try to keep pushing their scaling onto people who don't agree or have their own takes. It might be wrong, but people should be allowed to stay on one side for their personal take. For example:
If Joe is planetary because they destroyed a planet, then he's planetary. But if he has an ability that creates an infinite space or something, he's universal or whatever.
Both takes CAN/SHOULD work and the people scaling Joe should staying on their respective sides without getting in each other's neck about who's wrong and who's right if the debate gets heated.
What I hate most in powerscaling is when you have people saying “this character can destroy the universe”, but they never specify how long it would take, something I feel massively changes the perspective of that statement and why that type of powerscaling is flawed
Yeah. This is one thing that ticks me off too.
@@morphstarchangeling8024 that's why are usually only give universal to universal statements that define what they mean
@@Fourchin that's Goku btw who hasn't destroy any universe yet
Like kid buu who took an entire year to destroy a galaxy as said by supreme kai
@@Qwerty-345-12f that’s more character specific. Buu is a being of pure evil and chaos, he only tried to destroy the universe after he became buuhan. As for Goku he would never actually destroy a universe, he values life too much.
This is all stems to Stan Lee's response which they all take it either out of context or misunderstanding on what he said from what I remember Lonk. Like I get that the author can do whatever they want like making a weaker character beating a strong one but, that's where the problem is at, if a character was already establish as like this near omnipotent entity but got defeated by let's say the MC without any reason besides that's the author decided then, it's just bad writing in general
Kamen Rider Fan Spotted. 🔥
I think when people say that powerscaling sucks, all they mean most of the time is that they don't like how powerscalers can be overly toxic and focus too much on asspulled calculations. Which is a valid criticism. It's just that a generic "powerscaling sucks" doesn't really address what powerscaling actually is.
It's legit just being a nerd and having fun
STOP HAVING FUN!!!!!
@@lonkstakes 😭
@@lonkstakesOH LORD HAVE MERCY, MY BABY
"YOUR A NERD BRO" same person still makes a channel dedicated to talking about fictional verses
@@LazUmar ?
Stan Lee's rant only applies to in-universe scaling. He never once said power scaling is meaningless or that some imaginary writer decides a cross verse debate on Comic Vine.
I love this video so much. Especially the bias part. I was arguing with someone about jjk scaling about how jogo is stronger than toji, and all people did in response was be like, " Bro it's toji, toji could never lose to jogo because he's toji."
Even though jogo ( and the disaster curses as a whole )have way better feats and statements that put them above most people/curses in the jjk world.
Jogo isnt even my favorite character from that series, but jjk fans are so unbelievably bias towards their favorite characters that the thought of them being weaker than a lesser popular character is considered heresy.
toji still wins lmfao
he's the curse of the zenin clan, the failed fate breaker
no amount of cursed energy could get through the resolve of his aimless soul rampaging
the problem with powerscaling is highlighted by your inability to see how stronger ideas and its relationship with self is far stronger than the demiurgic curse of earth who merely believed in a world where curses will dominate the world, he was simply too weak to unlock his true potential
@@fleshInlang bro toji lost to teen gojo and jogo would beat that same gojo with ease, with zero prep time and without weakening him.
Toji was only "aimless" and "rampaging" due to the granny's technique and his poor way of life while he was alive. You literally just used a bunch of narrative glazing that was only used to explain his zombie like state in Shibuya as if that disproved anything I said.
Unless toji uses a cursed tool he is completely powerless against any cursed Spirit. So that narrative glazing is pointless even on a meta level.
His ACTUAL feats in term of power and speed are below jogos. Which is something that can actually be scaled. Toji has direct statements that maxes his speed at around three finger sukuna, and maki, someone who is equal to him, has feats that reinforce that he is for sure at a 3 finger level.
Y'all toji glazers need to get off your knees. This video just criticized the exact thing that you just did by trying to use a character arc to justify why toji is stronger than jogo without doing any actual scaling to reforce your argument.🤣
@antoneopitts2212 whole lot of yap and still narratively toji wins because he has better motives, it's as simple as that outside many layers of classism so instead of embarrassing yourself by making such weak in-verse arguments and just put him against someone else of relative power from your perspective
@antoneopitts2212 notice how this video is actively anti-intellectualist and has mf expose himself not reading much outside of powerscaling fiction
He's a great example of self-parody deluding people Into thinking they're making sense and aren't just making fanfiction
If power scaling just means a>b then its automatically based on a false premise. There are many scenarios where "b" could overcome "a" even if "a" is allegedly stronger. Skills, technique, mindset, environment, type advantage, health, stamina, even just plain luck can all affect an outcome. In real life and fiction fights are never just straight strength checks. Sure you can say that "a" should beat "b" but there is always going to be an argument for "b" if they are at all relative.
Powerscaling isn’t about “how would win in a random fight”, because obviously there’s luck and outside factors involved there. It’s more about who is more LIKELY to win, or with how Deadliest Warrior did it, in a simulation of 1000 battles, which character would get more wins?
Powerscaling to me is pure entertainment. I don't personally get into powerscaling, more of a spectator.
I hate powerscaling cause half the- no MOST of the mfs don’t even be knowing what they’re talking about and they just nit pick a op feat without ANY context at ALL and everytime I ask them can I get context they just move around the question and most likely 9/10 they didn’t even read or watch the shit
I think the main problem many people have with Dragon Ball powerscaling is the insane level of power creep there is and how the Original went from surviving being thrown through multiple concrete walls to sudden jump shooting vaporizing celestial bodies like the moon and how characters dominate characters like that then to vaporizing larger planetary bodies in Z and the power creep continues to get worse saga after saga. I recommend checking out Eonity's take of how Dragon Ball powerscaling has always been absurd.
tbf Goku is a gag+rage character
he literally acts like troll face physics with his transformation but he's Goku so can do that and is appreciated for being a Goofy martial artist who will always grow higher
@@fleshInlang
You mean like Goku going from a power level over 8,000 in base form to jumping to a power level of 3,000,000 in the span of a single month? That is quite a insane in universe power creep.
@@JohnLevi-t1w okay and bugs bunny can do that as long he can keep teasing someone
@@fleshInlang
I am not talking gag characters though I am just being realistic.
@@JohnLevi-t1w goku is a gag character
Power Scaling isn’t the problem, it’s the people who miss use it (ex: Goku Glazers being annoying).
TRUE
Honestly, I find the powerscaling debates enjoyable, especially this channel (and Salad too is another powerscaling channel)
I can see people debate how powerscaling can be toxic, but yeah it is individuals (in any group) but I feel like people shouldn't take the powerscaling to heart
Like sure Goku is overpowered but that's not gonna stop me from liking other characters that aren't as strong but still unique in their own ways, like if Goku Black is stronger than SSJ4 Goku, I'm not gonna be upset about it I just like SSJ4 as a form
Also it is fiction, I don't really care to apply real life logic when I see someone flying or having powers
salad is the goat because he actually bake more characteristics into his story and embrace the fuck canon and this is my fanfiction and I'll make Goku into a destroyer
a lot of things are relative and Toriyama may never thought about it, but who cares he's making fun stories, actively altering the scale to inflate or deflate the PLs who now matter because why would anyone judge someone who's not trying to argue in the first place
If kishimoto didn't used power scaling then Madara is getting negged by alliance, oh... that is also power scaling. Power scaling is inevitable.
i think the main issue people have with powerscaling is that it can sometimes feel like a series scaling higher than another implies that the series is better in terms of writing/quality, which is obviously not true
Dragon Ball is also, among other things, specifically made for power scaling.
They literally have power levels that are required and have multiple.
Honestly I always defer to what death battle says at the end of superman vs Goku part 3, say what you will about death battle but I think they hit the nail on the head by summarizing how people generally feel about about power scaling. Some people think that all power scalers basically do is watering down the characters into a mindless Bloodsport, but in reality many power scalers show their appreciation and love of the characters by admiring and comparing their strength and their weaknesses. It may not be the way that many people show their appreciation and love of a series but there are more then one way of appreciating media. Plus the power scaling is community is filled with wickedly smart mfs. Like how the f would someone forgot the speed of the flash, it mind blowing.
W video
Wow!
Really soild vid Lonk sometimes powerscaling and the narrative correlates with each and certain people just don’t want to see it that way. Hopefully this will give those people a new insight on scaling in general.
Gonna start saying themes dont exist in stories because I don't like them
The "who is stronger than who" aspect of powerscaling is important in most narratives where combat is a big element otherwise it results in bad writing.
What doesnt matter and authors dont care about is the exact numbers that go into it.
With dragon ball for example. It means absolute jack shit to me or the writer story wise if goku is a universe buster, or if hes a mountain buster. What matters is that you dont have some fodder character with barely any potential suddenly beating up on beerus because he trained for a few days. Or marvel where it makes no difference if galactus is multiversal or barely planetary. If you have spiderman suddenly beat him, its impossible to take it seriously.
Which is why getting mad because someone thinks your plumber or hedgehog cant nuke the solar system is stupid.
I do however think its dumb to try to quantify all of fiction into a single system especially for series where it gets insanely arbritrary (anything dealing with higher dimensions, touhou, minecraft, gag series etc) or just start seeing every character as a number
In my experience, folk who don't like powerscaling either have a specific favorite and think way too highly of them, or flat out dismiss certain characters due to their genre or style. An example for the latter is one of my friends will discuss the idea of things like how strong Godzilla, Dragonball, Transformers, and a few other mecha or anime stuff but in turn dismiss the idea of scaling Mario, Sonic, or Spongebob. He disagrees with the specific medium. In some aspects I can agree. I take weird issues with the comical powers referred to as "Toon force" or gag powers because they're meant as, well a gag or joke and not an actual representation of power. In such cases, I tend to avoid scaling crossverse from gags to serious. I wouldn't scale Bugs Bunny vs Naruto for example. One character's powers stem from comedy, the other something serious and meant to be a display of power. It's less serious, and hard to argue in good faith in my opinion because the powers granted by the gag are not often actually something typically depicted of that character.
Truth be told.
Power Scaling is a tool used by fans in vs debates.
No writer can write characters consistent enough to follow even 50% of their own scale.
Most casual people hate powerscaling simply because their favorite character will never be the strongest there will always be someone stronger out there.
Both sides approach power scaling incorrectly since it's subjective to how you define power scaling. The biggest problem with power scaling the way most fans use it is it's entirely fan-made. If you can have a valid opinion about power scaling's legitimacy, it's not legitimate. If each fiction has its own separate power scale, then the standardized fan scale doesn't work.
When it comes to the plot and story, the examples you gave I wouldn't really consider power scaling, but even if it is scaling, the scaling isn't important to the story, the threat is what's important. Those are different things. If power scaling were so great, there wouldn't be a need to fight at all since you'd already know who's stronger and going to win.
It's one thing to say A>B, but it's an entirely different thing to say A>B and B>C so A>C. The transitive property only works when you're comparing one and only one variable. There are countless variables in fights so it becomes a transitive property and/or false equivalent fallacy depending on the argument. This is what Stan Lee is talking about about. It's not about inconsistently being weaker or stronger at any given moment. It's that events, circumstances, and decisions matter just as much if not more.
Not really since
1. Scenarios can be assumed e.g
Bloodlusted, based on how the character behaves.
2. At times most people just compare stats so it isn't really headcanon.
E.g
Naruto vs goku, Naruto being solar lvl and goku being high multi so I say goku wins when in reality they've never fought.
But I get what you mean by it isn't so straightforward. Like with characters gojo where people just used the stats pattern as to not use headcanon. E.g
Gojo vs goku
Gojo is like city- island and goku is high multi
Goku has no way of touching gojo and gojo has no way of damaging goku so goku just wins by comparing stats.
@XAsh_black Bloodlusted is one factor out many that goes into a scenario. You even say based on how a character behaves. Behavior involves many actions and tendencies. How many of those can you assume before completely breaking Occam's razor? For example, people often say Goku beats Superman because Batman beat Superman and Goku beats Batman. Well Superman and Batman have fought under dozens of different scenarios with different results. Which scenario are you assuming Goku and Superman are fighting in for it to be exactly the same so it's not a false equivalent fallacy and why are we assuming Goku would have the same advantages as Batman?
Comparing stats isn't headcanon. How you get to those stats usually is. E.g saying Naruto is solar level even though he has no solar level feat and Goku being high multi which is a completely fan made term based on something that doesn't even measure power. Those are headcanon.
@ndvct6087 1. No one in existences ever said goku beats superman because he beats batman and superman loses to batman. That's insane and if anyone truly said that and stood by that argument leave it.
2. The stats for those characters are gotten by calculating certain feats from the anime. Just like goku being high multi, he clashed with beers us and threatened to destroy a complex universe ( universe 7 ) its not headcanon, I'm just presenting what has happened in the anime but without pictures.
@ndvct6087 a universe isn't a fan made term. Neither is a multiverse, which goku can destroy based on feats in the anime. It's not really hard
For E.g, baji in Tokyo revengers destroyed a wall. If I say he is wall level, does that mean I made the word "wall" and the word "level" up? No. I just gave them ranks based on pre-existing quantities .
@ndvct6087 Basically, your goku > Superman because goku > batman who has beaten Superman, is like you said false equivalency, so I advise you not to argue with people like that especially of they stand by it.
The comparing stats, on the other hand, isn't headcanon. it's just calculating feats presented in the anime and giving an acceptable tier.
not to mention without power scaling there would be no growth in characters or consistency
I don't hate the concept of powerscaling, in fact I too think it's fun. It's more the community that I hate, mainly the members who bash new/upcoming crossovers just because they don't believe one side should be able to contend with the other. Ex: Marvel recently announced a new Godzilla vs Avengers crossover comic (it being nearly 50 years since they last crossed over), and I've seen Marvel fanboys already calling it stupid because they believe that Godzilla is gonna get one-shotted by Hulk or Thor. Even though Godzilla is most certainly gonna be portrayed as a huge threat that the Avengers are gonna have to pull out all of the stops to beat.
If it's an official crossover it's in marvels hands, if your comparing characters then it can be scaled
@@XAsh_blackExactly. Comparing the characters in general is one thing, and bashing an official crossover due to not liking the idea of one side being able to put up a fight is another.
Ok...i am a power scaler. But as you can see, I'm also a godzilla fan. My side is the power scaling community is...different to most. Simply put, I'm on the Creature/monster scaling side. And for some reason, and it's something i don't see really in any other scaling media, the godzilla community is one of the few that put too much realism into them sometimes.
There is a thought about if 1 version of godzilla is bigger, heavier, or taller, or any monster at all. They will always win.
Now...if you look at the monsterverse from legendary, their godzilla's greatest feat is the hollow earth drill that with sub atomic destruction has a calculation for planet level. (He is much stronger from lore but I'll use this) this godzilla is 120 meters tall and there are some that swear up and down that he is one of the strongest Godzilla’s.
Showa godzilla, 50 meters. This godzilla was stronger than the cannon zone fighter who BROKE A 4TH DIMENSIONAL PLANE AND KILLED A 4D KAIJU! But he's 50 meters and small so he loses to monsterverse.
I don't see this line of thinking...anywhere else. No one is out here thinking that grear ape gohan from dbz is beating thanos because the giant monkey has longer arms, heavier, and just bigger. Literally i cannot find another part of this community that does this.
(A guy named godzilla guy has kind of brought this wrong mentality into the fandom).
Just wanted to rant a bit.
I've also noticed this with Kaiju scaling, it's odd but it's definitely a testament to the variety of calculation methodologies that different groups tend to lean towards.
Personally I do enjoy powerscaling, and of course it matters in alot of pieces of fiction, my only issue with it is when you have one character with alot of sources, let's say Flash from DC from the latest meme "0.00000001 petasecond" thingy that caused discourse on the hellscape that is twitter, and then try to powerscale it for a fight with anyone. Suddendly, all material depicting this character's strongest feats, even if they are by wildly different authors, and from wildly different stories, of equally varying quality and canonicity, now count. I find that an issue because, in that example of Flash, one dogshit author can write "Flash's speed and reaction time is 1 bajillion megajillion petakilometers per second", but then in a later story, without any handicap, another writer writes the same Flash cannot react to a gun's bullet for various reasons, in order to have compelling drama, not having and needing to take in account powerscaling for the story. And because of it, we're in this shitty balance where the authors are contradicting each other, and the powerscalers take either the dumb route of saying "Well then his highest feat MUST be 1 bajillion megajillion petakilometers per second for speed !" and disregard all other feats, or the other route of saying "Well then all guns in the verse are 1 bajillion megajillion petakilometers per second in speed !", making everything all outta wack without ever agreeing on what to pick and what not to accept when powerscaling someone. It's like a domino of "Ifs" that keep piling up, and in the end makes it so that someone takes a thing as objective so that he can just pick and choose Flash to be Omniversal to beat anyone he powerscales against, and use that same "objectivity" to belittle another character and lowball it just to win an argument.
power scaling is just shipping with slightly more goku
I am a wtitter ( wattpad and not paid but still ) and i do write with power scalling in mind bc if krillin one shots all of super with 0 explanation it would not work because it contradict the previous power scalling of krillin
When i wtite i have a rough estimate of what character can do what and what are the top tiers
Like they can casually do this and if they try hard enough they destroy x. Just to remain consistent
Also speed is hard bc I remember a cw flash épisode were he through himself lighting wich is mach 100+ and he is stated to Mach 2 .. so yeah when i wrote a scene when a character moved in a blink of an eye and it was way to fast i slowed the feat down
Most of the times people i see complain about powerscaling are the ones that have a horrible take then get push back on it
that is facts
@majinIsaacor is people who don't have any idea of the actual chars scale with them picking favorite with them thinking it dumb when I pull out that this char actually just stomps realistically their preferred char
@@gameuniverse5973 sorry I am finding it hard to understand what you are saying
Yeah that's literally the biggest pattern I've seen with these people. They make a dumb take like Naruto beating Goku or something, and then act surprised when power scalers tell them they're wrong.
the reason I don't really like powerscaling (more of the toxic side of the fandom but whatever) is because I like
- SCP (Its reputation offsite has been ruined because of annoying people constantly bringing it up in crossverse debates)
- tensei slime (same as scp)
- Dragon ball (kinda same as scp, except with the added flavor of it constantly being brought up in fan discussions)
I find powerscalling fun sometimes, but a fandom (or parts of it) being both very active in powerscaling debate and annoying ruins the fun for everyone else
As someone who is also an SCP fan,I can feel your pain..
You nailed it. It’s the community,
I for one would love powerscaling without flaw if the Rimuru stans never existed.
or gojo stans
We all know scaling power is for the strong
Powerscaling is really good and very interesting, there is basically no problem about it.
The problem is not with powerscaling, but with people taking it too seriously, like those who can't respect your opinion and start insult you if you disagree with them about which character is stronger than which character, and it really becomes toxic.
Powerscaling is like anything, there has to be a limit.
We are talking about fiction so it should be fun, entertaining to debate about it, today I see too much disrespect between those who discuss this, and because of this, people have a bad opinion/vision of powerscaling.
Powerscaling's community needs to grow up.
1: If power scaling doesn't matter why doesn't Krillin just immediately beat Frieza, Cell, Buu, Beerus, Zamasu and Jiren?
2: Because they're all way stronger than him
1: You just power scaled
Yeah saying an author doesnt think about powerscaling is so stupid cause there is powerscaling in every single story.
I think it because those people though Power scaling is just cross verse scaling.
Author might not care about other verse power but they probaly care a lot about inverse scaling for their story
@@fishnutz5196yea show me the powerscaling of a court of law show
Exactly
Yeah and thats fun, the bs comes when you get the tiers
Great video. Aside from the examples from specific fictions, I thought of these ideas almost identically! Thank you for explaining it well. 🌟
You don't like something doesn't mean other people can't enjoy power scaling but the people who do enjoy power scaling can't just go and yell or scream at people making the show or people saying that this character can beat what character if that person thinks it explain why the long and get over it
I respect your perspective, but I want to say, I don't agree with a few things you said in the video.
First, power scaling is not the same as power escalation and threat escalation. When sombody says "writers don't think about power scaling", they aren't referring to that characters power within the story, rather, they are referring to the fact that writers aren't considering how their character will interact with another character from a different story. The video from flazefire that you showed says as much.
Second, a lot of people from the power scaling community often look at media only from a power scaling perspective and thus usually take abstract statements and try to scale them. An example from my owne discussions is Slay the Princess and Omori, two games that are not ment to be scaled and have a lot of symbolism and Metaphor within them, are put under a power scaling lense and turned into a glorified circle jerk. I know these are anecdotes, but all you have to do is look at the Vs Battle wiki articles of both to see what I'm talking about.
I hope this doesn't come off as too annoying, but as a person that is still, at least partially, connected to the power scaling community, I have seen some of the best and worst parts of the hobby and when it gets bad, it gets really bad.
Naturally, the problem does not come from the tool, but rather from the use of the tool itself.
One of the biggest problems with many power scalers is how little outliers are taken into account by them. Basically, they buff a character excessively for a specific event which doesn't even define the character's power since it is not repeated later on/ever again and they directly have consistently worse feats thorough the series
Power scaling is not bad at all bad power systems are bad but that dont mean powerscaling is bad the thing that ruins powerscaling is glazing
You onto something
If I may share my opinion as a non power scaler, who does have some issues with power scaling in general, and give at least my perspective on each point.
"The Author didn't consider it" - I think it's obvious that the author does to some degree consider how strong one character is, either in general or in relation to others. But I don't think most authors consider it to the extent that power scalers seem to. I have seen so many "faster than light" characters fail to react to normal mundane stuff that should not be possible if someone can move and react that fast.
"Stan Lee Quote" - I agree here, my reasoning is that media is full of weaker characters overcoming someone stronger than themselves one way or another, Venom is strictly stronger than Spider-Man, but will inevitably lose because when they fight Spider-Man is the protagonist. One thing that I'm glad Hunter X Hunter brought up was how who wins =/= who is stronger, there are so many factors in play, including how much you know about your opponent, how you fight, what state of mind you're in, and on and on, that can all affect the outcome, who is stronger is literally just one factor. It's also why I wouldn't accept "Goku is stronger than Vageeta because he beat Broly when Vageeta didn't", it is good evidence for that, but doesn't prove it on its own.
"Community" - This is where I have most of my issues. You're right that the community's behavior doesn't mean that power scaling itself is a problem, but it does reflect poorly on it since the community are the ones doing the power scaling. Like if 80% of everyone who did math was skewing the results to what they wanted it to be, that wouldn't make math in itself wrong, but it would mean I wouldn't trust any mathematician.
I suspect the reason why there is more toxicity in the power scaling community isn't because most of these people shared a power scaling opinion and got dunked on (not saying that doesn't happen or isn't a factor), but I think a part of it is just the argumentative nature of it. Who wins in XvY, what feats are which level, how do anti-feats factor in, how meaningful is a hax, it's all so subjective that it encourages people arguing with each other, while they're all convinced that they're right and their favourite guy stomps no diff.
"Flawed Perception" - I am someone who has an issue with characters moving faster than light. My reasons for this are twofold:
-first because power scalers are the ones who bring science and math into the equation, "X can throw a rock Y big, which means they must be able to lift Z tons" or "X punched so hard they left a crater Y in diamater, meaning they punch with Z force" you can't bring in real world physics when it suits you and then claim that fictional worlds work differently when it doesn't, if moving faster than light doesn't cause them to be crushed under infinite pressure, then that giant rock is just "lot of pounds" not some actual numerical value unless one is explicitly given in the series.
-second I can accept magic and stuff because those get explained, or are at least left as mystical mysterious forces and are less called upon. In particular my issue with faster than light movement is it makes no sense how most of these characters can even see when they're moving so fast that light can't reach them, and this is often called attention too by the series when someone moves too fast to see, which more clearly demonstrates that yes they are using light to see.
For instance in Dragon Ball, I think Piccolo mentors to Gohan to focus on energy signatures in order to watch a fight instead of relying on his eyes (doesn't explain how they avoid crashing into inanimate objects, but this can work to a degree), but then that concept is turned on its head when Frieza who couldn't detect energy signatures can somehow fight perfectly fine at what must be massively faster than light speeds.
If it gets explained how someone moves faster than light, then I don't care about it. Even if it's just a vague thing like say Flash's "speed force" or something, and without any more explenation I buy it completely, there's a magic involved that explicitly works to make them move super fast and operate normally at that speed. When Goku moves at faster than light speed, there is no magic that explains how he is functioning normally, he just is.
My biggest issues really started way back with the first Goku v Superman Death Battle, for reasons I'm glad you called out in this video. When I saw thousands of comments and videos, arguing pedantic details, highballing this, lowballing that, using obscure one time cases that never got repeated, and making assumption after assumption about how things worked in order to explain why their guy wins (I was team Goku and even the DBZ fans were putting me off). It has made it very difficult to take power scaling seriously, and while not universal and not to the same extent as back then, this is often the same mentality I see whenever I see someone power scale.
Since then I have always considered what an author's intent for the character is beyond just what their feats are.
I don't have issues with anyone responding, but I won't be arguing anything. My point was to just share my perspective, not to argue a case or change minds. If you think I have a good or bad point, I'm happy to read what you have to say but don't expect me to engage much more than a paragraph if anything beyond this.
My biggest problem with power scaling are concepts, specifically platonic concepts. Using platonic concepts to scale characters in fiction to outerversal is very shaky because most fictional verses don't follow the idea of platonism or even know what it is. For example everyone says Arceus from Pokémon is outerversal because of Arceus having dominion over realms that "have no concept of space nor time" however in order for this argument to work you would have to prove that they are referring to PLATONIC concepts otherwise this statement means nothing as it could just be referring to the regular physical properties of time and saying that the mere thought of them also do not exist in such a dimension. Another example is Parallax from DC who is stated to be the "concept" of fear. Parallax himself is never stated to be related to Plato's theory of platonism and he even has a physical form which platonic concepts do not have. When Parallax is defeated the concept of fear still exists afterwards which further proves he is not a platonic concept and is more of an embodiment since platonic forms need to exist in order for the thing they're the concept of to exist otherwise they can't work as concepts. When a character is stated to be above the "concept" of something they are most likely referring to the regular existence of said concept otherwise it scales nowhere without proof.
Platonic concept scale no were
@@starjones7050 concepts and dimentionality itself scale nowhere because humans can't perceive 4d or high
So all these 5d,6d,9d,105d are bs stupidity
My point is if a character has destroyed Universes he is Universal+
If he hasn't destroyed any universes till date or beaten anyone who has destroyed Universes effortlessly at once he isn't Universal
So on for multiversal
And outerversal doesn't even make sense
Power scaling maximum limit should be multiversal as that's what we can see on a paper
Drawing something on a random theory doesn't even scale anywhere
Dude power scaling sucks most of the time, cause people like to confront characters between different franchises. And they love to measure with real life physics, one time feats that the author obviously didn't stop to think about the implications. Like someone who's street level and often fights common dudes, stops a small meteor for some reason, now this consistently street level character after applying real life physics, now he can move at super Sonic speeds and this feat means that he's able to obliterate a skyscraper. Even though in the actual series he's never doing anything close to this
So? It’s a fun harmless hobby. There’s problem people in every community ever. Comparing different characters from different franchises is no different from comparing an all time boxer to an all time MMA fighter. It’s just for fun and a way to show your love for a series or passion. Power scaling doesn’t suck you just don’t like it.
@SpectorLKM I didn't say all power scaling sucks, I myself enjoy me some in same universe power scaling for fun, as long as the person making it doesn't get too technical with realism and arbitrary numbers, (like saying this punch that destroyed a mountain is certain amount of newtons of force)
The power scaling I say it sucks and often gets more attention is the one I was describing is too inconsistent and it's so subjective it really doesn't make sense at all, people picking and choosing one time feats and applying real physics to confirm their own bias. I dislike it and say it sucks, cause once you take out physics formulas and start guessing the volume of a rock or speed of a certain feat and treat it like you discovered the actual power and capabilities of a fictional character, you're way inside your own ass to say it's just for fun.
@@jorgerincon6874 I mean I sorta get your point but that’s the one of the fun parts of power scaling. Yeah it’s not concrete and you have to make many assumptions but it’s just a fun hobby people do. It doesn’t suck because people calculate a feat and get a number, if the numbers make sense and are reasonably assumed then who cares. Even if it isn’t they that’s just bad and incompetent, not actively sucking in a harmful way. Same Universe scaling is cool and all but the fun part of power scaling is seeing how two characters from separate universes stack up against each other. It is simply way more fun and interesting to analyze Superman vs Goku over Goku vs Vegeta. Like yeah people take it seriously, just like many people take any hobby or passion seriously.
Also why is it being inconsistent and subjective bad? That’s bound to happen when we understand and discover more things. People interpret things differently, hence why we have a diverse amount of opinions in the first place. Like obviously it won’t make much sense if you don’t look into it, that’s how everything works. If you understand why there is variation in scaling and how that happens, then it wouldn’t be confusing. Also scalers (in general) don’t just guess stuff. They have reasons for applying numbers to feats or items, mainly with in verse or real world reference, such as X rock being similar to Y rock in real life meaning we can assume X rock is similar in volume and weight to Y rock. Is it perfect? No but it’s trial and error until you get something better, which is literally how everything works. Obviously power scaling is silly and dumb but saying crossverse scaling sucks is harsh.
Power scaling the psudoscience with its stupid "hyper outerversal, 8 dimensional faster than infinite speed" is stupid.
Having a sense of the power of a character is just good writing advice.
Using an instance of a character doing something impressive to prove that they are strong is good.
Using vague statements and things that barely make any sense and should never be considered when writing to wank a character to high hell is bad.
My main issue with power scaling is when it's so simplistic that you can determine the winner solely based on who has more power, reducing conflicts to a mere comparison of numbers.
Don’t get me wrong-I enjoy plenty of anime that relies on power scaling, and even in the fiction book I’m writing, I incorporate it to some degree because it reflects a natural aspect of reality. However, introducing strategic complexity makes battles far more engaging and dynamic.
The most memorable fights, for me, are those where the protagonist defeats a stronger opponent through intelligence and by overcoming weaknesses with strategy. The strongest doesn’t always have to win against the weaker; unpredictability adds depth to the narrative and keeps it exciting. If everything is resolved purely through power scaling, there’s no thrill in rooting for the protagonist when you already know they’ll win just because they’re the strongest.
I think power scaling has its use and it’s fun, but the problem comes when participating in it becomes the main/only way you enjoy lots of media (namely super-powered stuff, but also most things combative). For example, lots of people know gohan has tons of potential to be super strong. The problem for me comes when people look at gohan only for his power, and completely ignore his character. Gohan literally doesn’t want to fight; he’s not a fighter. Yet because he has the potential to be, probably, the strongest in his verse (excluding the g.o.d.’s and angels), people bash on him for not training. Ofc, moderation and critical thinking fixes the problem, but when intense power scaling is so attractive, I think this still needs to be said.
A show almost always sets these bars themselves. An early encounter to show how far behind our hero is, a literal ranking like structure, purposefully never letting some characters fight so the audience is left to argue over who's stronger, Not even showing our main villain but hearing talks about them to show how far the journey is and how much stronger our heroes need to become.
It is baked in
Power scaling is not bad, immature people doing the debate is
I always find it weird when battle shonen fans hate on powerscaling, like its litteralty a core part of the series your reading/watching and talked about every chapter
Most people who hate power scaling do so because their favorite character loses. I mean, I get it. It can suck when your guy loses, but you've gotta face the facts. There are a lot of characters out there who do, in fact, beat Goku. Had to come to terms with that when I was a kid, now I argue for fun and not because I'm raging because I'm mad my guy lost.
edit: Death Battle can go straight to HIFL though. They absolutely suck at it on every level, and every video is made purely to generate clicks without any regard for the actual power of the characters involved. They'll pull different random numbers out of their asses within the same video for the same feat. Whatever pisses people off the most so they'll get engagement and will be blessed by the great and mighty algorithm with more views.
I agree with the first part but I think DB is fine. Dont like dont watch type deal.
People who power scalers just hate goku
They say everyone beats goku
@@lonkstakes Regardless of your opinion on DB, they absolutely and deliberately fumbled Bardock vs Omni-man to ragebait DBZ fans.
@@lonkstakes Regardless of your opinion on DB, they absolutely and deliberately fumbled Bardock vs Omni-man to ragebait DBZ fans.
@@lonkstakes Regardless of your opinion on DB, they absolutely and deliberately fumbled Bardock vs Omni-man to ragebait DBZ fans.