The aggresive double kick adds a layer that keeps the song's momentum and energy, while the rest of the drums play the "interesting" parts. Once the pattern switches, it also creates a feeling of relief that reinforces whatever new groove or rythm follows it up. Additionaly, it's a staple of the symphonic black metal sound and works perhaps a little bit like harsh vocalists; as an aesthetic choice, maybe even a sort of genre shibboleth
Really good comment. Extreme metal fans are so used to double kick runs that they don't stand out as awkward. Even so, with Ne-O and this song in particular, the double kicks are really complicated and, in my opinion, critical to forming the motion and inertia of the moment: they tell us the sway and feel, but also build a sense of where we're going, setting up those abrupt transitions to hit that much harder.
I agree, though I'd reiterate and say that it provides intensity to the song. The same really goes for blast beats, just a different flavor of the same thing. At the end of the day, sadly, both have been abused in metal music to such an extent that they have pretty much become just a sort of musical gimmick. Something that bands do without really giving it much thought, because that's just what you do in metal. The same can be said of growls/screams/harsh vocals in general. If I can be honest after all these years of listening to metal, these gimmicks are really starting to wear on me. More often than not, they add nothing to the composition and it's so rare nowadays that they have the effect that they're supposed to. Edit: I apologize if this came off as too negative, it wasn't supposed to be. It's just something that's been kinda bothering me for a while, and I needed to get it off my chest.
@@volimNestea I agree with your negative comments, and I think that establishes some of the baseline with which Doug is working - essentially, an expectation that it's by default over the top and superfluous. I don't think that's the case in this song; I find their orchestration, including the use of growls, double kick runs, and blast beats, artistic and absolutely top notch. But as a general criticism of metal (and even the infiltration of metal influences into other genres, from screams and growls to breakdowns and distortion), it's completely fair and spot on.
I can see why it would bother Doug though in this particular song. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy it, but I get that as a composer he would probably vibe much more with double-kick drumming by Jamie Saint Merat on Dead Oceans (live version) for example where his double-kick drumming is extreeeeemely varied and doesn't "detract" from the other parts seeing as the guitar is really focused on atmospheric riffing imo in Dead Oceans as opposed to virtuosic soloing in this song. Again, I don't mind the double-kick in that song, esp when for the first part of the solo you could say the double-kick propels the intensity and urgency with the fast sweeps happening at the same time, but he'd probably much prefer the extremely chaotic and varied double-kick drumming found in technical disso-death acts like Gorguts or Ulcerate
If you enjoyed this song by them, I would highly recommend their song "Forget Not" I would argue that compositionally, it is their magnum opus, even over Plague Flowers the Kaleidoscope.
That’s the one that got me into them, respectfully I’d add misericorde 1, of petrichor waves black noise, and devour me colossus in that same category that you mention
If you look at the history of rock/metal, increasing the "sheer noise and wall of sound" quotient is kinda how both genres evolved over time, going all the way back to when The Kinks were literally damaging their speakers to get more grit out of their distorted guitars. Likewise, the amount of kick drum has steadily increased since the dawn of rock. Back in the jazz era the kick was used sparingly as an "exclamation point," but when rock came in the kick drum was now part of the beat's backbone (a lot of jazz guys hated rock because of that). Fast forward a few decades and we get a guy like John Bonham just relentlessly plugging away at a single kick drum (his kick attack is a large part of why Zeppelin were so heavy for their time). Fast forward about a decade-or-so later and we start getting into thrash metal and other extreme metal bands making more and more use of double-kicks, until it just becomes a staple of all forms of extreme metal. Like most elements in music if you didn't grow up with it it's going to be an acquired taste, but I'm lucky I found metal early enough that it's always just struck me as another valid method of keeping the rhythm, and I especially appreciate bands like Ne Obliviscaris that use it on-and-off to vary the rhythmic texture.
Fun fact: This song was included in the curriculum at the Sydney conservatory of music. I'd like to give my input on double bass in death metal (and many genres, that's where I believe it originates but I'm not incredibly well listened on metal history) as a long time metalhead and drummer. I think the double bass serves as a bed of tension the rest of the music can interact with. Sometimes bands choose to write riffs at that speed, or more like this song, do halftime/slowed down riffs resting over top. Really, I just don't think there's anything that replaces that kind of intense tension that comes from the constant fast bass drum - though there's definitely a difference between bands that are aware of the ear fatigue you'll get and write around it vs bands that don't ever contrast those sections with some kind of break. a lot of metal is timbral rather than harmonic or melodic. Those are still big parts of the style, but a lot of emphasis is on that deep heavy rumbling in your chest you get with these songs live - very similar to rave music in that sense, where a lot of the style is informed by what kind of song is good to mosh to. Things like tritones and minor seconds are used because of how they play with overdrive and gain. Djent especially, is a genre kind of all about just rhythm and timbre. In those senses, metal and rock shift away from the general idea of western music theory and sort of re frame the similar harmonic and melodic ideas they use, and also add a couple unique details. That's my attempt at explaining it anyway, not sure if it makes sense or not.
damn i might consider going to the Sydney Conservatorium for that lol. i was thinking of going to JMC academy in surrey hills but if i can do ne obliviscaris it's definitely something i will consider...
When fast it's about the energy, like a machine gun, to me it sounds powerful (similar to the excitement a rollercoaster may give), and then when slowed down it lays the foundation for a steady groove. I too enjoy it and it's why I love drums so much in extreme metal. You don't that feeling in other styles of music. To those who feel nothing from it or dislike it, I do not envy them. To me it's a thrilling and fun addition to the music.
I honestly like this version the best, a live performance yet it feels just perfect on every level. Wall of sound, i never saw NeO as that, they are too coherent for that, but i see what you mean.
@@vavra222 While I think the studio version mixes in the sound a little bit better, I absolutely love this version. The moments of medium tempo synchronized headbanging just hit so damn hard, more so than on the album.
Just on the double-kick: compositionally, perhaps it doesn’t add much from a traditional theoretical perspective. However, metal often does this as a means of heightening the emotional response and the feeling of urgency or an oversupply of energy. Songs like this are complex in their composition, and are often too extreme for the listener. Personally, I really have to be in the mood for this type of composition, but I respect the hell out of it. This is a fantastic tune. The fact that they can pull it off so well is very impressive.
For me, the double kick is the drum's equivalent of tremolo. It adds a sense of anguish or anxiety while also providing a drive. When a riff needs to be bigger you can bring in the double kick and when you want to restrain you simply remove it thus enhancing the sense of contrast too.
I love this track. I hope doug does too. SUCH AN UNDERRATED PROG BAND. I hope Doug does more of them. The Painters Of The Tempest Suite is great (at least from what I remember 5 years ago, lol)
Ne Obliviscaris is great but they are not underrated at all. Maybe they were 3-5 years ago but they have been solidly rated for a while now. Everyone that listens to them raves about them and as Doug said they have been recommended to him for years.
@@RTSRAZORBACK To be fair to Doug here, this band overuses it and it becomes annoying after a couple songs. And that's coming from a fan and someone who generally likes double kick.
If Doug is going to tap into some black/extreme metal territory, he should check out some Emperor. "I Am the Black Wizards" and "With Strength I Burn" are outstanding pieces of music!
If he can't handle the double kick in a song as relatively mellow as this then most black metal is going to be way too inaccessible for him Might be able to handle some solo Ihsahn stuff
Great analysis of one of my favorite bands. I highly recommend you check out their song "Equus" from their latest album titled 'Exul', in my opinion, it is one of their best compositions and contains an equally poignant message
Heavy double kick can add stress, can make the music sound oppressive, create an impenetrable texture, can overwhelm, or can make you feel surrounded and comfortable or off kilter and anxious. Just depends on the song. When it stops it feels like a release. It reinforces the changes.
Thank you for sharing your interpretation of the lyrics. I just thought I would add this observation that I think applies not only to this band, but also others that have both harsh and clean vocals as well as lighter and heavier instrumentation, it often seems to be a representation of what you described, the beauty and darkness of humanity, the good and the evil, the potential of and for both, creation and destruction. You mentioned Opeth and I think that is another great example of this. Great reaction! ❤😊🤘BTW props to violinist, beautiful!
Extreme metal double kick bass (blast beats) and harsh vocals eventually clicked for me. It was through bands that used both clean and harsh vocals. Extreme metal is usually high energy. The blast beats fit that perfectly. Fun fact: And Plague Flowers the Kaleidoscope was added to the curriculum at the Sydney Conservatorium of Music in 2013.
Yeah, I was very touch and go with harsh vocals for a long time, dating well back into the '90s. With Opeth, it immediately clicked, and that opened up everything else. Bands like Ne-O and Insomnium - or even Amon Amarth, where the harsh vocals are an instrument, and the melody is in the guitar - just absolutely solidified my love of harsh vocals, and now I love them everywhere.
From a purely academic perspective, I'd agree the double kick doesn't add anything. But that's not what's important about most music. From a listener's perspective, it absolutely adds a lot. It adds a layer of sound, which in the context of extreme metal like this adds tension. It also adds to the "powerful" feeling that metal often creates in listeners from the sheer intensity it represents. You anticipate the moment when the double kick stops and you get that release. And if you're familiar with the song, you might also anticipate the beginning of a section which uses the fast double kicks. When listening live in a concert, you get that added full body experience when the kick hits.
Expanding the palette, love it! Glad you enjoy this, ne obliviscaris is an absolutely stellar group, their latest, exul, is an amazing album. In case you're interested in delving deeper into heavier stuff akin to this, i have a number of bands to recommend. Rivers of nihil - 'the void from which no sound escapes', or 'subtle change' are great. Septicflesh - 'the coming storm', or 'a great mass of death' are more symphonic Humanity's last breath - 'instill', or 'rampant', or 'abyssal mouth'. I think they might be a tad too heavy though, at least for the time being. Incredible mixing, an amazing guitar tone across the board Fleshgod apocalypse - 'pathfinder' or 'cold as perfection', or 'epilogue'for a more symphonic track, although i imagine FA might be a tad too heavy as well. First fragment - 'in'el' or 'la veuve et le martyr', or in case fully instrumental neoclassical hits then 'l'entite' would also be great. This is still techdeath, but not necessarily too heavy? A few of those might need a bit of easing in, as some of 'em are heavier than what you're used to, but all in due time! You'll be a casual cytotoxin/archspire/blut aus nord/beyond creation/imperial triumphant enjoyer in no time! (Some potential future suggestions)
You’re the best reactor on RUclips. A lot of substance and technical/theory in your reactions that I always enjoy. Amazing how you just know these things
I'd highly recommend their song Equus, dedicated to the lives (human and animal) lost in the 2019-2020 brush fires in Australia. Although there are probably great live versions, I'd go with the original video. The imagery is powerful!
Knowing Doug is going to enjoy this one and that he is into celtic music, let's get him listening to Eluveitie (Helvetie) right away. Their folk metal is perfect to introduce him to heavier metal with something familiar to hold on to. Rebirth for a start. ruclips.net/video/d-pSq4MJmy8/видео.html Yes, it could be the older Innis Mona or the new Aidus, but when there's a song that encapsulates a band so well, no need to get creative. P.s. More violin, plus flute and hurdy-gurdy.
Couldn't agree more! That album is just flawless from start to finish imo. I can still remember when that album dropped and I heard Painters of the Tempest for the first time, to this day that song can still make me just stop whatever it is that I'm doing to just focus on the song, admire the art. If you enjoy bands like this, try giving a band called Wilderun a listen, their music is beautiful and every song feels like an adventure.
Wilderun is good but more similar to Opeth than Ne Obliviscaris. The one thing I've found that to me sounds really similar to NeO is The Body Cosmic by Iapetus, amazing album. If you want just a single song listen to I Contain Multitudes.
I think you would have a blast with a band called "Wintersun", you could do any song that they do live form sonic pump studios. I heavily recommend "Time" or "Sons of Winter and Stars" live at sonic pump studios.
They still hang with fans at the merch stand after the show ☺️ saw them in Helsinki, FI the spring and they are super friendly and humble. It was an amazing show too. 🖤
These guys are hittin' my city in late October and I'm stoked to see them live. I wouldn't have expected them to show up on your channel, but I'm glad you gave 'em a go!
The constant double kick in small subdivisions is a feature, not a bug of metal composition. It's a pretty basic way to maintain a sense of frantic momentum even in half-time feels. It also allows for a variety of feels even under the same backbeat. A lot of times kick drums function like high hats in maintaining rhythmic connective tissue/subdivisions and the cymbals/snare pick out accents for grooves.
If you like that sort of thing, I'd recommend a few songs. Vintersorg - Svältvinter Dimmu Borgir - Progenies of the Great Apocalypse Kamelot - The Haunting (Somewhere in Time) [Feat. Simone Simons] Ihsahn - Celestial Violence [Feat. Einar Solberg]
especially since you've got tim that can act as a counterpart to xenoyr or the guitars with his cleans and violin. opeth for instance mix beauty and brutality as well but not to that extent and the vocals can only be harsh or clean, not both simultaneously. i love opeth more but NeO's recipe on the first 3 albums is untouchable. somehow exul hasn't really clicked in that manner with me yet, and both of the limited EPs just to some extent.
In a few comments and I think even in an email I sent, I recommended you not to start with this track, and if you did then do the studio version. I get that you did this song and this version because I've seen so many people recommending it to you, but knowing what you like Doug I think a piece like As The Icicles Fall or Forget Not would suit you better, especially since you said in the beginning of this song "if the whole song is like this I'm gonna enjoy myself". If you feel a little bit courageous you could even try Painters Of The Tempest. It's 26 minutes long but well worth it, the mix is absolutely fantastic and the build and release of tension is really well done.
Being a huge Rush fan, I like paying attention to the bass. And I am quite impressed with rhe bass runs. I feel the bassist could guve Geddy a run for his money.
If you'd like to see probably the best bassist in the world, ( subjective ), but probably true regardless. I recommend First Fragment's bassist who used to play for Beyond Creation. Here's a couple links to some bass playthroughs their songs. Enjoy. The first is his composition iirc and the second is their prior bassists composition another great bassist. ruclips.net/video/xQN6F0rtKvY/видео.html ruclips.net/video/OP0GIa9uJjE/видео.html
Fun Fact: Universities in Australia (the bands home country) use this song in classes for music studies. (I forget the actual class name, thou eh heh...)
Spot on with the Opeth comparison, even so early on in the song. Ne-O are maybe the closest thing we've had to Opeth 2.0, in terms of complexity, length of songs, and creativity. As far as double kicks, I couldn't disagree more - but also, I'm from a metal background in addition to classical, so it's not something that stands out automatically as out of place for me. Here's why I think it's valuable compositionally, especially with a band like Ne-O, and in this piece in particular (although a live version may not be the best format to really hear its place in the mix). Pressland's drumming is intricate, complex, and insane. That might make it sound like the double kicks are a contradiction, but really, it's quite the opposite. They set the pace and feel for the moment, and set up transitions and quieter or more complex moments. For example, he primarily uses three different running double kick patterns throughout this song, and each gives you a feel for the movement or sway of the moment - such as when they are headbanging in unison, and it's a slower, more traditional duple/quadruple kick pattern (instead of the triplet patterns). The faster patterns add a sense of rushing, of forward momentum, and even of unease and tension: something's building, something's coming, we're going somewhere. There are parallels in classical music, as well, stepping outside of percussion. Where do we go from there? Usually, those moments lead to an abrupt change: something intricate, or a quiet calm moment before the band re-emerges into something more chaotic. He uses blast beats toward the end of the song for the same effect: this is the driving energy pushing the piece inexorably toward the climax and eventual falling action. Without that tension from the double kicks, those moments wouldn't hit the same. Those super cool hand patterns across the toms, snare, and brass, often syncopated, wouldn't stand out without the more "traditional" heaviness from the double kicks that preceded them. (This is especially noticeable to drummers.) The quiet parts wouldn't seem as quiet. In summary, looking at it as a composer - from both a metal and classical background - I think the double kicks add extraordinary value to the piece. Not by default, mind you; you can't just throw in a double bass run anywhere and expect it to be a brilliant stroke of genius. However, the way Pressland crafts multiple styles of double kick runs in this one piece alone, and how he uses them to both set the flow and sway of the moment, to give you a sense of the tension and motion, and to set up the coming transitions, is absolutely stunning writing. A lesser drummer isn't one who couldn't play this (although it's incredibly difficult to play); a lesser drummer is one who couldn't WRITE this.
the double-kicks arent as intrusive in the mix in the studio version, the solo is much clearer there, i find. So it might be an issue with the live recording. As for why the kicks are there, I think it adds a nice "spine" throughout.
I agree the kicks takes away from that solo in the mix, but everywhere else in the song it's perfectly in step with the other instruments. I like this song for the spectacle of the musicianship, but the composition is a little meandering. I love death vocals and nice cleans. They do them both pretty well. Holding long clean notes over staccato screams is a cool idea, but I'd rather they used it more sparingly to increase the impact. Unsung hero is the bassist playing his ass off.
I was looking forward to your reaction of this because I knew the double kick would rattle you haha. I will admit the band would do well to cut way back on that as it can get exhausting but if you can look past it you'll see moments of sheer brilliance and originality that few other bands can dream of achieving.
I've seen a few reactions to this song, and no one seems to pick up on the bass playing. Which surprises me. During the wall of sound, which is admittedly impressive technically, the bass is very active and melodic. Honestly, it's my favorite part of the composition.
7:45 It's an adquired taste! Double kicks and blast beats are really common in extreme metal, believe me it makes a lot of sense if you like this type of music haha (i listened to metal for at least 18 years)
i saw them on stage in france at the end of May .. They were very happy to play , it was a fun and great show The singer was not the same in the video .
In this same vein of thought out black metal, I think you'd enjoy (or it at least might shed some light on the value of black metal) the band called Obsequiae. This outfit out of Minnesota blends medieval music (literally) with black metal. The album 'The Palms of Sorrowed Kings' alternates -- for the most part -- between a medieval instrumental intro to an absolute black metal banger. My favorite track off that the aforementioned album is Morrigan, but I'm sure other commenters will have other recommendations. For sure, check it out. It's thought out, considered black metal much like Ne Obliviscaris.
you asked at 7:50 about double bassdrumming. As a drummer, and most definitely not a composer, I can't really say too much about the compositional as I am not very versed in that. But it adds a sort of hectic but also a different very quick rhythmic component. And I also think it sound great.
I'm going to see these guys in concert in Boise, ID this October... I can't wait! Also, you mentioned the aggressive kick drum... might I suggest checking out Bleed by Meshuggah? Drumming that will blow your mind. They even have a video where you can just watch the drummer through the whole song.
I think double kicks add driving feel to a song and then when shifting away to non-double kick part it adds contrast and the non double kick part often feels kind of releasing tension. I can understand if someone feels that there is too much double kick, but in general I just think it as just only one kind of drum groove sound amongst others. I'm just talking in general and not this song particularly.
Finally!!! I requested this many times... now you can give a try to Rivers of Nihil; Between the Buried and me; Thy Catafalque or even better: Death 🔥🔥🔥
Other people have chimed in about the double kick but I'll another perspective: on top of all the other things already mentioned like energy, tension and the breaks reinforcing the parts where they're missing, this song has a couple of sections where the whole band goes on that tempo and the double kick serves as something of an anchor for that theme to carry over through the rest of the piece allowing it to be evoked again and again on the high tension parts to be an almost oppressive force, fitting with the lyrical themes.
I would not put this in "Extreme Metal" category (Kreator and the like) I would consider this symphonic prog metal with clean/harsh vocals. They certainly have great musicianship. If you like this try Unlucky Morpheus 「CADAVER」「REVADAC」
There is certainly more extreme stuff, but compared to what Doug has done on the channel thus far. Maybe Deliverance by Opeth maybe the two heaviest song reactions Doug has done.
Finally! I was waiting this... Now you must ear and analyze the band Mobius and their song Abhinivesha And the band Persefone and their song Spiritual Migration
Dan Presland's work on drums with Ne Obliviscaris is basically a masterclass on technique, stamina and creativity in a (prog) metal environment. It's NOT "just a show off" of doing super fast double kicks for minutes or incorporating every technique there is, it's an amazing combination of all of that with loads of feel, groove and creativity and adaptation/support to the "melodic side" of things. He is simply put - insanely good. Of course you don't need all of what he does in other genres and whatnot but here's more or less the combination of everything one might want in metal.
I really think you would enjoy Equus. It features less double kick. And also an expanded string section(duets, trio and a qurtet) and also features a choir. It was also dedicated to the wildfires that ravaged and the killed animals and their habitat.that devastated Australia and American in 2020
![BRASIL vs. URUGUAY [1-1] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 12](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-hWBAuxF1eY/mqdefault.jpg)
The aggresive double kick adds a layer that keeps the song's momentum and energy, while the rest of the drums play the "interesting" parts. Once the pattern switches, it also creates a feeling of relief that reinforces whatever new groove or rythm follows it up.
Additionaly, it's a staple of the symphonic black metal sound and works perhaps a little bit like harsh vocalists; as an aesthetic choice, maybe even a sort of genre shibboleth
This is my feeling as well. Music is universal and with it comes different tastes and reasons for listening to it.
Really good comment. Extreme metal fans are so used to double kick runs that they don't stand out as awkward. Even so, with Ne-O and this song in particular, the double kicks are really complicated and, in my opinion, critical to forming the motion and inertia of the moment: they tell us the sway and feel, but also build a sense of where we're going, setting up those abrupt transitions to hit that much harder.
I agree, though I'd reiterate and say that it provides intensity to the song. The same really goes for blast beats, just a different flavor of the same thing. At the end of the day, sadly, both have been abused in metal music to such an extent that they have pretty much become just a sort of musical gimmick. Something that bands do without really giving it much thought, because that's just what you do in metal. The same can be said of growls/screams/harsh vocals in general. If I can be honest after all these years of listening to metal, these gimmicks are really starting to wear on me. More often than not, they add nothing to the composition and it's so rare nowadays that they have the effect that they're supposed to.
Edit: I apologize if this came off as too negative, it wasn't supposed to be. It's just something that's been kinda bothering me for a while, and I needed to get it off my chest.
@@volimNestea I agree with your negative comments, and I think that establishes some of the baseline with which Doug is working - essentially, an expectation that it's by default over the top and superfluous. I don't think that's the case in this song; I find their orchestration, including the use of growls, double kick runs, and blast beats, artistic and absolutely top notch. But as a general criticism of metal (and even the infiltration of metal influences into other genres, from screams and growls to breakdowns and distortion), it's completely fair and spot on.
I can see why it would bother Doug though in this particular song. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy it, but I get that as a composer he would probably vibe much more with double-kick drumming by Jamie Saint Merat on Dead Oceans (live version) for example where his double-kick drumming is extreeeeemely varied and doesn't "detract" from the other parts seeing as the guitar is really focused on atmospheric riffing imo in Dead Oceans as opposed to virtuosic soloing in this song.
Again, I don't mind the double-kick in that song, esp when for the first part of the solo you could say the double-kick propels the intensity and urgency with the fast sweeps happening at the same time, but he'd probably much prefer the extremely chaotic and varied double-kick drumming found in technical disso-death acts like Gorguts or Ulcerate
If you enjoyed this song by them, I would highly recommend their song "Forget Not"
I would argue that compositionally, it is their magnum opus, even over Plague Flowers the Kaleidoscope.
Forget not is one of my personal favorites, but for me the ending to Pyrrhic has to be the most beautiful piece of music ever composed in history.
The whole Portal of I album is honestly amazing
that entire album is a masterpiece, they dont have any bad music at all.
That’s the one that got me into them, respectfully I’d add misericorde 1, of petrichor waves black noise, and devour me colossus in that same category that you mention
The amount of talent in this band is overwhelming
It does not stop! So good
Listen to Equus omg
If you look at the history of rock/metal, increasing the "sheer noise and wall of sound" quotient is kinda how both genres evolved over time, going all the way back to when The Kinks were literally damaging their speakers to get more grit out of their distorted guitars. Likewise, the amount of kick drum has steadily increased since the dawn of rock. Back in the jazz era the kick was used sparingly as an "exclamation point," but when rock came in the kick drum was now part of the beat's backbone (a lot of jazz guys hated rock because of that). Fast forward a few decades and we get a guy like John Bonham just relentlessly plugging away at a single kick drum (his kick attack is a large part of why Zeppelin were so heavy for their time). Fast forward about a decade-or-so later and we start getting into thrash metal and other extreme metal bands making more and more use of double-kicks, until it just becomes a staple of all forms of extreme metal. Like most elements in music if you didn't grow up with it it's going to be an acquired taste, but I'm lucky I found metal early enough that it's always just struck me as another valid method of keeping the rhythm, and I especially appreciate bands like Ne Obliviscaris that use it on-and-off to vary the rhythmic texture.
For me, I find it odd when a metal band's drummer isn't using double kicks.
@@johnafirthSpecially in thrash and power metal, for me
Sadly, this is mostly why it's so hard to mix with the bass, this song has some amazing bass lines that are arebunhearable.
This is a banger. Tim’s clean vocals and violin playing are 1 of a kind.
Not to mention the bass playing. That bassist dude is amazing too.
@@BayouMaccabeehe's not with them anymore due his mental problems, but present bassist is excellent as well
NeO would probably not catch my attention and stick for years to follow if it wasn't for Tim's violin and voice.
@@eratoster777Mental problems?! Ahhhh no...
@@DBASSDAN Yes, Brandon had it
Fun fact: This song was included in the curriculum at the Sydney conservatory of music.
I'd like to give my input on double bass in death metal (and many genres, that's where I believe it originates but I'm not incredibly well listened on metal history) as a long time metalhead and drummer.
I think the double bass serves as a bed of tension the rest of the music can interact with. Sometimes bands choose to write riffs at that speed, or more like this song, do halftime/slowed down riffs resting over top. Really, I just don't think there's anything that replaces that kind of intense tension that comes from the constant fast bass drum - though there's definitely a difference between bands that are aware of the ear fatigue you'll get and write around it vs bands that don't ever contrast those sections with some kind of break.
a lot of metal is timbral rather than harmonic or melodic. Those are still big parts of the style, but a lot of emphasis is on that deep heavy rumbling in your chest you get with these songs live - very similar to rave music in that sense, where a lot of the style is informed by what kind of song is good to mosh to. Things like tritones and minor seconds are used because of how they play with overdrive and gain. Djent especially, is a genre kind of all about just rhythm and timbre. In those senses, metal and rock shift away from the general idea of western music theory and sort of re frame the similar harmonic and melodic ideas they use, and also add a couple unique details.
That's my attempt at explaining it anyway, not sure if it makes sense or not.
damn i might consider going to the Sydney Conservatorium for that lol. i was thinking of going to JMC academy in surrey hills but if i can do ne obliviscaris it's definitely something i will consider...
@@theyescapedtheweightofdarkness It was taught in a composition class, I don't think they used it as a performance piece for people to learn.
These guys are amazing live.
The double kicks love you, Doug, reciprocate their love
It makes songs loads more exciting for me adding double bass will make a song a lot better just for having it makes it way more exciting and heavy
When fast it's about the energy, like a machine gun, to me it sounds powerful (similar to the excitement a rollercoaster may give), and then when slowed down it lays the foundation for a steady groove. I too enjoy it and it's why I love drums so much in extreme metal. You don't that feeling in other styles of music. To those who feel nothing from it or dislike it, I do not envy them. To me it's a thrilling and fun addition to the music.
@@XwoooahX Yeah, it's drive, energy and motion foreward for me.
@@XwoooahXwell said and sentiment shared!
The studio recording of this song is absolutely amazing. A masterpiece of a song.
And yeah, they build a serious wall of sound.
I honestly like this version the best, a live performance yet it feels just perfect on every level.
Wall of sound, i never saw NeO as that, they are too coherent for that, but i see what you mean.
@@vavra222 While I think the studio version mixes in the sound a little bit better, I absolutely love this version. The moments of medium tempo synchronized headbanging just hit so damn hard, more so than on the album.
Just on the double-kick: compositionally, perhaps it doesn’t add much from a traditional theoretical perspective. However, metal often does this as a means of heightening the emotional response and the feeling of urgency or an oversupply of energy.
Songs like this are complex in their composition, and are often too extreme for the listener. Personally, I really have to be in the mood for this type of composition, but I respect the hell out of it.
This is a fantastic tune. The fact that they can pull it off so well is very impressive.
For me, the double kick is the drum's equivalent of tremolo. It adds a sense of anguish or anxiety while also providing a drive. When a riff needs to be bigger you can bring in the double kick and when you want to restrain you simply remove it thus enhancing the sense of contrast too.
I love this track. I hope doug does too. SUCH AN UNDERRATED PROG BAND. I hope Doug does more of them. The Painters Of The Tempest Suite is great (at least from what I remember 5 years ago, lol)
Ne Obliviscaris is great but they are not underrated at all. Maybe they were 3-5 years ago but they have been solidly rated for a while now. Everyone that listens to them raves about them and as Doug said they have been recommended to him for years.
@@CriticalPotato for the quality they put out they're still extremely underappreciated
I discovered this band years ago from a reaction channel. I've been a huge fan ever since.
Years later, Doug's endless disgust of double kick has turned into "that's some impressive double kick y'all, sextuplets" 😁
EDIT: oh... nevermind 🙈
Awwwww. I was surprised! And then as you ended . . . 😕😛
I feel like Doug's dislike for double kicks makes him focus on them even more, instead of taking them with the drums/music as a whole 🙃
@@RTSRAZORBACK To be fair to Doug here, this band overuses it and it becomes annoying after a couple songs. And that's coming from a fan and someone who generally likes double kick.
wait until he gets 'Wintersun - Sons Of Winter And Stars' down the pike, lol 8+ minutes of double bass would do him in. lol
@@wizarddragon There's _a lot_ more kick drum variety in Sons Of Winter And Stars than here.
Amusingly the CC subtitles have welcomed me back to the Daily tug....
If Doug is going to tap into some black/extreme metal territory, he should check out some Emperor. "I Am the Black Wizards" and "With Strength I Burn" are outstanding pieces of music!
If he can't handle the double kick in a song as relatively mellow as this then most black metal is going to be way too inaccessible for him
Might be able to handle some solo Ihsahn stuff
@@branthall1787 yeah i agree he'd love crooked red line
I want him to hear some Absu or Melechesh with Proscriptor
Learning to appreciate double kick is just like learning to appreciate harsh vocals.
I just read the spotify description of Emperor. What a wild ride
Probably thousands of comments on it. But the song was studied at the sydney conservatorium of music!
Shows you how good the composition is!!!❤
Great analysis of one of my favorite bands. I highly recommend you check out their song "Equus" from their latest album titled 'Exul', in my opinion, it is one of their best compositions and contains an equally poignant message
Heavy double kick can add stress, can make the music sound oppressive, create an impenetrable texture, can overwhelm, or can make you feel surrounded and comfortable or off kilter and anxious. Just depends on the song. When it stops it feels like a release. It reinforces the changes.
Thank you for sharing your interpretation of the lyrics. I just thought I would add this observation that I think applies not only to this band, but also others that have both harsh and clean vocals as well as lighter and heavier instrumentation, it often seems to be a representation of what you described, the beauty and darkness of humanity, the good and the evil, the potential of and for both, creation and destruction. You mentioned Opeth and I think that is another great example of this. Great reaction! ❤😊🤘BTW props to violinist, beautiful!
Yeah, Opeth before Akerfeldt dropped the harsh vocals, or my long-time favourites Enslaved.
Extreme metal double kick bass (blast beats) and harsh vocals eventually clicked for me. It was through bands that used both clean and harsh vocals. Extreme metal is usually high energy. The blast beats fit that perfectly. Fun fact: And Plague Flowers the Kaleidoscope was added to the curriculum at the Sydney Conservatorium of Music in 2013.
Yeah, I was very touch and go with harsh vocals for a long time, dating well back into the '90s. With Opeth, it immediately clicked, and that opened up everything else. Bands like Ne-O and Insomnium - or even Amon Amarth, where the harsh vocals are an instrument, and the melody is in the guitar - just absolutely solidified my love of harsh vocals, and now I love them everywhere.
Fast metal double kicks are not blast beats. It's very much a separate technique. Most types of blast beat are played single-footed.
The sound mixer for this deserves a round of applause. Capturing a violin over these instruments this well is a real achievement.
MIND BLOWN!!!!!! Wow, what a great song and great reaction! Thanks Doug!
From a purely academic perspective, I'd agree the double kick doesn't add anything. But that's not what's important about most music.
From a listener's perspective, it absolutely adds a lot. It adds a layer of sound, which in the context of extreme metal like this adds tension. It also adds to the "powerful" feeling that metal often creates in listeners from the sheer intensity it represents. You anticipate the moment when the double kick stops and you get that release. And if you're familiar with the song, you might also anticipate the beginning of a section which uses the fast double kicks. When listening live in a concert, you get that added full body experience when the kick hits.
Please react to more of Ne Obliviscaris I love this band soooo much they are so talented it's insane. Keep up the good content!
Oh finally!
At last, one of the very best tracks from one of the best string-pulling bands today!
HALLELUJAH!
Expanding the palette, love it! Glad you enjoy this, ne obliviscaris is an absolutely stellar group, their latest, exul, is an amazing album. In case you're interested in delving deeper into heavier stuff akin to this, i have a number of bands to recommend.
Rivers of nihil - 'the void from which no sound escapes', or 'subtle change' are great.
Septicflesh - 'the coming storm', or 'a great mass of death' are more symphonic
Humanity's last breath - 'instill', or 'rampant', or 'abyssal mouth'. I think they might be a tad too heavy though, at least for the time being. Incredible mixing, an amazing guitar tone across the board
Fleshgod apocalypse - 'pathfinder' or 'cold as perfection', or 'epilogue'for a more symphonic track, although i imagine FA might be a tad too heavy as well.
First fragment - 'in'el' or 'la veuve et le martyr', or in case fully instrumental neoclassical hits then 'l'entite' would also be great. This is still techdeath, but not necessarily too heavy?
A few of those might need a bit of easing in, as some of 'em are heavier than what you're used to, but all in due time! You'll be a casual cytotoxin/archspire/blut aus nord/beyond creation/imperial triumphant enjoyer in no time! (Some potential future suggestions)
You’re the best reactor on RUclips. A lot of substance and technical/theory in your reactions that I always enjoy. Amazing how you just know these things
Never even heard of these guys before...thanks for doing this one, amazing musicians, I need to look into them further!
The bassguitar sounds great! And i love the cymbalplay from the drummer.
I'd highly recommend their song Equus, dedicated to the lives (human and animal) lost in the 2019-2020 brush fires in Australia. Although there are probably great live versions, I'd go with the original video. The imagery is powerful!
Knowing Doug is going to enjoy this one and that he is into celtic music, let's get him listening to Eluveitie (Helvetie) right away. Their folk metal is perfect to introduce him to heavier metal with something familiar to hold on to.
Rebirth for a start. ruclips.net/video/d-pSq4MJmy8/видео.html Yes, it could be the older Innis Mona or the new Aidus, but when there's a song that encapsulates a band so well, no need to get creative.
P.s. More violin, plus flute and hurdy-gurdy.
Their album Citadel is such a work of art, mindblowingly brilliant.
Couldn't agree more! That album is just flawless from start to finish imo. I can still remember when that album dropped and I heard Painters of the Tempest for the first time, to this day that song can still make me just stop whatever it is that I'm doing to just focus on the song, admire the art. If you enjoy bands like this, try giving a band called Wilderun a listen, their music is beautiful and every song feels like an adventure.
Wilderun is good but more similar to Opeth than Ne Obliviscaris. The one thing I've found that to me sounds really similar to NeO is The Body Cosmic by Iapetus, amazing album. If you want just a single song listen to I Contain Multitudes.
all of their albums are one of a kind
@@colemantrebor6574 because Dan plays the drums for that song for them
bit late but very much vouching for iapetus! for creatures such as we is my all time favorite metal song besides painters from neo@@colemantrebor6574
PLEASE MORE NE OBLIVISCARIS !!!!!!!
Great Prog Metal band. Love the addition of the violin.
I requested this a long time ago! So good to see you do this one. One of the most overwhelmingly good songs I've ever heard!
I just saw these guys last night in Dallas, and they are amazing. This song is just a small taste of what they do. Please check more of them.
I think you would have a blast with a band called "Wintersun", you could do any song that they do live form sonic pump studios. I heavily recommend "Time" or "Sons of Winter and Stars" live at sonic pump studios.
I cannot belive there are not more requests of Wintersun, i agree those two songs would make him love metal more 🎉🎉
They still hang with fans at the merch stand after the show ☺️ saw them in Helsinki, FI the spring and they are super friendly and humble. It was an amazing show too. 🖤
!! I requested this one way back in some of you’re earliest videos so glad you’re doing it!
These guys are hittin' my city in late October and I'm stoked to see them live. I wouldn't have expected them to show up on your channel, but I'm glad you gave 'em a go!
The constant double kick in small subdivisions is a feature, not a bug of metal composition. It's a pretty basic way to maintain a sense of frantic momentum even in half-time feels. It also allows for a variety of feels even under the same backbeat. A lot of times kick drums function like high hats in maintaining rhythmic connective tissue/subdivisions and the cymbals/snare pick out accents for grooves.
Never thought I'd see NeO on this channel, but i'm glad he liked them. They aren't for everyone
I like seeing more variety on your channel. Prog rock is fun and all, but I'm here for metal 😂
Well said!
Their ability to mix beauty and brutality is unsurpased in my opinion
If you like that sort of thing, I'd recommend a few songs.
Vintersorg - Svältvinter
Dimmu Borgir - Progenies of the Great Apocalypse
Kamelot - The Haunting (Somewhere in Time) [Feat. Simone Simons]
Ihsahn - Celestial Violence [Feat. Einar Solberg]
Very good list @@Lleanlleawrg. Have you heard Caladan Brood - Wild Autumn Wind?
especially since you've got tim that can act as a counterpart to xenoyr or the guitars with his cleans and violin. opeth for instance mix beauty and brutality as well but not to that extent and the vocals can only be harsh or clean, not both simultaneously. i love opeth more but NeO's recipe on the first 3 albums is untouchable. somehow exul hasn't really clicked in that manner with me yet, and both of the limited EPs just to some extent.
I discovered this band too this year. Loving their stuff.
In a few comments and I think even in an email I sent, I recommended you not to start with this track, and if you did then do the studio version. I get that you did this song and this version because I've seen so many people recommending it to you, but knowing what you like Doug I think a piece like As The Icicles Fall or Forget Not would suit you better, especially since you said in the beginning of this song "if the whole song is like this I'm gonna enjoy myself". If you feel a little bit courageous you could even try Painters Of The Tempest. It's 26 minutes long but well worth it, the mix is absolutely fantastic and the build and release of tension is really well done.
I love their music, it has a magical effect on me, I don't think about anything and just relax
Also loved your lyrical analysis. Zen writes very poetic and symbolic lyrics.
Being a huge Rush fan, I like paying attention to the bass. And I am quite impressed with rhe bass runs. I feel the bassist could guve Geddy a run for his money.
If you'd like to see probably the best bassist in the world, ( subjective ), but probably true regardless. I recommend First Fragment's bassist who used to play for Beyond Creation. Here's a couple links to some bass playthroughs their songs. Enjoy. The first is his composition iirc and the second is their prior bassists composition another great bassist.
ruclips.net/video/xQN6F0rtKvY/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/OP0GIa9uJjE/видео.html
Fun Fact: Universities in Australia (the bands home country) use this song in classes for music studies. (I forget the actual class name, thou eh heh...)
It was the composition class at the Sydney Conservatory of Music.
Oh hell yes! Can’t wait for this
Spot on with the Opeth comparison, even so early on in the song. Ne-O are maybe the closest thing we've had to Opeth 2.0, in terms of complexity, length of songs, and creativity.
As far as double kicks, I couldn't disagree more - but also, I'm from a metal background in addition to classical, so it's not something that stands out automatically as out of place for me. Here's why I think it's valuable compositionally, especially with a band like Ne-O, and in this piece in particular (although a live version may not be the best format to really hear its place in the mix).
Pressland's drumming is intricate, complex, and insane. That might make it sound like the double kicks are a contradiction, but really, it's quite the opposite. They set the pace and feel for the moment, and set up transitions and quieter or more complex moments. For example, he primarily uses three different running double kick patterns throughout this song, and each gives you a feel for the movement or sway of the moment - such as when they are headbanging in unison, and it's a slower, more traditional duple/quadruple kick pattern (instead of the triplet patterns).
The faster patterns add a sense of rushing, of forward momentum, and even of unease and tension: something's building, something's coming, we're going somewhere. There are parallels in classical music, as well, stepping outside of percussion. Where do we go from there? Usually, those moments lead to an abrupt change: something intricate, or a quiet calm moment before the band re-emerges into something more chaotic. He uses blast beats toward the end of the song for the same effect: this is the driving energy pushing the piece inexorably toward the climax and eventual falling action.
Without that tension from the double kicks, those moments wouldn't hit the same. Those super cool hand patterns across the toms, snare, and brass, often syncopated, wouldn't stand out without the more "traditional" heaviness from the double kicks that preceded them. (This is especially noticeable to drummers.) The quiet parts wouldn't seem as quiet.
In summary, looking at it as a composer - from both a metal and classical background - I think the double kicks add extraordinary value to the piece. Not by default, mind you; you can't just throw in a double bass run anywhere and expect it to be a brilliant stroke of genius. However, the way Pressland crafts multiple styles of double kick runs in this one piece alone, and how he uses them to both set the flow and sway of the moment, to give you a sense of the tension and motion, and to set up the coming transitions, is absolutely stunning writing. A lesser drummer isn't one who couldn't play this (although it's incredibly difficult to play); a lesser drummer is one who couldn't WRITE this.
I think Wilderun more fits the bill for "Opeth 2.0"...if you haven't heard them already, definitely check them out!
This band is next level. Love your channel. Thank you for your insight. This is one of my favorite songs of all time. Amazing.
Omy, I had told Doug 1 year ago to react to neobliviscaris 😊😊😊, One of the best bands today
Was not expecting to enjoy this as much as I did.
The band is a true diamond in the rough. Check out all their stuff.
Check out their songs Forget Not and Eyrie next, some of their most beautiful songs.
Double bass played that fast just makes songs sound sick as hell!
I really hope you'll check out their track Eyrie, its one of my favorites. It's incredibly beautiful.
Eyrie puts me into such a happy place every time I hear. It’s straight-up magic!
@@grinnialvex yeah same !!!
I feel like its fairly underrated when it comes to the rest of their music, and it has so much emotion behind it!
The intro is absolutely gorgeous and by far their best
the double-kicks arent as intrusive in the mix in the studio version, the solo is much clearer there, i find. So it might be an issue with the live recording. As for why the kicks are there, I think it adds a nice "spine" throughout.
I can’t imagine this song without the constant double kicks. it adds an atmosphere I can’t describe
I agree the kicks takes away from that solo in the mix, but everywhere else in the song it's perfectly in step with the other instruments. I like this song for the spectacle of the musicianship, but the composition is a little meandering. I love death vocals and nice cleans. They do them both pretty well. Holding long clean notes over staccato screams is a cool idea, but I'd rather they used it more sparingly to increase the impact. Unsung hero is the bassist playing his ass off.
Waited for this one for so long!
Really interesting analysis of the lyrics. Thank you.
Saying I'm hyped for this would be an understatement
Highly recommend checking out Ashenspire's Law of Asbestos for some more innovative metal.
Legends from my neck of the woods! Nice 👍
This music cunningly educates you. By using these vocals they lead you to read the lyrics in album's booklet :D
You should do the full Painters of the Tempest next, it's their masterpiece.
I was looking forward to your reaction of this because I knew the double kick would rattle you haha. I will admit the band would do well to cut way back on that as it can get exhausting but if you can look past it you'll see moments of sheer brilliance and originality that few other bands can dream of achieving.
I've seen a few reactions to this song, and no one seems to pick up on the bass playing.
Which surprises me. During the wall of sound, which is admittedly impressive technically, the bass is very active and melodic. Honestly, it's my favorite part of the composition.
7:45 It's an adquired taste! Double kicks and blast beats are really common in extreme metal, believe me it makes a lot of sense if you like this type of music haha (i listened to metal for at least 18 years)
Double kick is the best, keeps the pace and smoothness of the tune... heartbeat goes down... sort of meditation
Ne Obliviscaris reaction.. Click....
Ive seen this band live and it was Amazingly good. They finished the set with Plague Flowers, it was perfect.
i saw them on stage in france at the end of May .. They were very happy to play , it was a fun and great show
The singer was not the same in the video .
Yeah, they had to get a temporary replacement as the main singer had something going at that time and it was easier than canceling a tour.
In this same vein of thought out black metal, I think you'd enjoy (or it at least might shed some light on the value of black metal) the band called Obsequiae. This outfit out of Minnesota blends medieval music (literally) with black metal. The album 'The Palms of Sorrowed Kings' alternates -- for the most part -- between a medieval instrumental intro to an absolute black metal banger. My favorite track off that the aforementioned album is Morrigan, but I'm sure other commenters will have other recommendations. For sure, check it out. It's thought out, considered black metal much like Ne Obliviscaris.
Thanks for exposing me to music I wouldn't have otherwise heard. You're doing a capiral job.
Think of the double kick as a rhythmical equivalent to a drone or pedal note in a melody or chord progression…
Those kicks drive the energy in the room if you see them live or if you wanna blast this band loud.
I actually saw them live in my hometown of Portland, Oregon and own one of their shirts. It's actually the only concert I've ever attended
you asked at 7:50 about double bassdrumming. As a drummer, and most definitely not a composer, I can't really say too much about the compositional as I am not very versed in that. But it adds a sort of hectic but also a different very quick rhythmic component. And I also think it sound great.
Violin in the beginning brought to mind when David Cross was with King Crimson in the early '70's.
I was hoping for this….!!!! Next you should look into forget not..!!
Saw these in May in Manchester, UK. Phenomenal.
Discovered this band 3 month ago with this song, now im a huge fan of them !
One of the best songs ever produced ever, and definitely one of the best live performances of said songs.
I'm going to see these guys in concert in Boise, ID this October... I can't wait!
Also, you mentioned the aggressive kick drum... might I suggest checking out Bleed by Meshuggah? Drumming that will blow your mind. They even have a video where you can just watch the drummer through the whole song.
I think double kicks add driving feel to a song and then when shifting away to non-double kick part it adds contrast and the non double kick part often feels kind of releasing tension. I can understand if someone feels that there is too much double kick, but in general I just think it as just only one kind of drum groove sound amongst others. I'm just talking in general and not this song particularly.
Finally!!! I requested this many times... now you can give a try to Rivers of Nihil; Between the Buried and me; Thy Catafalque or even better: Death 🔥🔥🔥
For me those fast extended bass kick sections add power and forwards drive. Also, really fast stuff is fun.
Other people have chimed in about the double kick but I'll another perspective: on top of all the other things already mentioned like energy, tension and the breaks reinforcing the parts where they're missing, this song has a couple of sections where the whole band goes on that tempo and the double kick serves as something of an anchor for that theme to carry over through the rest of the piece allowing it to be evoked again and again on the high tension parts to be an almost oppressive force, fitting with the lyrical themes.
YES! YES! OH! YES! I'M sure you'll love that one!
I would not put this in "Extreme Metal" category (Kreator and the like) I would consider this symphonic prog metal with clean/harsh vocals. They certainly have great musicianship.
If you like this try Unlucky Morpheus 「CADAVER」「REVADAC」
There is certainly more extreme stuff, but compared to what Doug has done on the channel thus far. Maybe Deliverance by Opeth maybe the two heaviest song reactions Doug has done.
This is definitely extreme for casual music fans and what Doug usually listens to.
Right, Mark. This is just prog with some harsh vocals. Great choice of band. I suggested Eluveitie. 🤘
Ne Obliviscaris is definitely in my top three fave bands, along with Wintersun and Insomnium.
Finally! I was waiting this...
Now you must ear and analyze the band Mobius and their song Abhinivesha
And the band Persefone and their song Spiritual Migration
Spiritual Migration is a great song by a great band. 2nd this.
I met some of them at a show in Spain and they are actually very very nice people as well as impressive musicians
Dan Presland's work on drums with Ne Obliviscaris is basically a masterclass on technique, stamina and creativity in a (prog) metal environment. It's NOT "just a show off" of doing super fast double kicks for minutes or incorporating every technique there is, it's an amazing combination of all of that with loads of feel, groove and creativity and adaptation/support to the "melodic side" of things. He is simply put - insanely good. Of course you don't need all of what he does in other genres and whatnot but here's more or less the combination of everything one might want in metal.
I really think you would enjoy Equus. It features less double kick. And also an expanded string section(duets, trio and a qurtet) and also features a choir. It was also dedicated to the wildfires that ravaged and the killed animals and their habitat.that devastated Australia and American in 2020
Ne Obliviscaris - Equus
Glad to see some black metal on the channel! Would be great to see "With Strength I Burn" by Emperor
Double bass adds the liver tremors if you are at live show