Consequences • S03E15 • TPN's Buffy Guide
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- Опубликовано: 30 апр 2016
- Buffy deals with the fallout from the events of Bad Girls.
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Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Myth, Metaphor & Morality
Mark Field
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Joss Whedon: Slayers, Dolls and singing villains
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The Slayers Couple
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Kohlberg’s theory of moral development
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The Willow Bit
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"Favorite Secrets" by Waylon Thornton
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Passion of the Nerd reviews Consequences From Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Season 3, Episode 15. Directed by Michael Gershman. Written by Marti Noxon. Starring Sarah Michelle Gellar as Buffy Summers. Nicholas Brendon as Xander Harris. Alyson Hannigan as Willow Rosenberg. Charisma Carpenter as Cordeila Chase. David Boreanaz as Angel. Seth Green as Oz. And Anthony Stewart Head as Rupert Giles. Guest Starring Eliza Dushku as Faith Lehane. And Alexis Denisof as Wesley Wyndam-Pryce. 
Развлечения
And in this episode, Wesley Wyndham-Pryce allows a member of the group to be abducted, a morally ambiguous action that he is convinced is right, without talking to any of his allies about it until it's too late and the abducted group member turns against the team.Good thing he learned from his mistake and never does anything like this again.
+Joseph Davis That did occur to me. Too soon to start getting into yet.
Wesley is always like this ... Wesley
Uh.....he did actually make this mistake again. But good points & I don't want to give any spoilers as for TPN's new way of doing the guide. Peace
@@meschachhorne7407 Good lord Jospeh Davis is making a joke!
There are not many perfect comments out there, this is one of them
Eliza dushku said that she was playing faith as bi and thought the character was bi. I trust her.
+Zaffron Rain You can believe it: they had to scrap her scenes in Angel with Stephanie Romanov because they made Paige and Lily Cade look tame and the censors would have freaked out.
+tsstevensts gorram censors
+Zaffron Rain She seems quite bisexual but that´s hard to say with fictional characters unless they state it. But I would love her to be. I love Wilow´s being gay but there was serious bi-erasure in her case. It would be nice to have character, that simply state she is bisexual. Just another pearl in the Buffy necklase.
But also keep in mind, that sexuality is hugely complicated thing. There are many many categories and we can also say screw all categories, which I quess might be exactly something what Faith might said herself. ;)
+tsstevensts Were these different scenes or the same ones? I only heard that they had to tone down their performances (which doesn't even make sense because they wrote innuendo laden dialogue purposely) but did they have separate scenes they were supposed to have as well? I'm still upset about this ;/
+Dave D´ave I wish Willow had been called bisexual in the show. Although it is possible for sexuality to change (eg willow being straight at the beginning and then becoming gay), and that is the way it was written in the show (with willow not being attracted to men after tara), I always felt like it was a missed opportunity (and also devalued Oz. He was amazing. Willow loved him).
Eliza Dushku said in a interview that being in love with Buffy does explain a lot of Faith's actions so there you go.
*****
actors don't decide what is true or not true about a show if that makes you feel better. this is how she choose to play it, not the intended story
I'd be interested in watching that interview, as that actress is a pretty good quality source of what's going on in her beautiful brunette head, if you get my drift. (I'm saying her character is physically gorgeous, and she's not bad looking either, but in a platonic way only.)
@@slashandbones13 But given the textual evidence, much could lean in that way. Once the art has left the creator, it's up to the admirer to decide for he or herself.
even if she wasn't romantically in love with Buffy if you've ever been a teenage girl we kind of fall in love with our best friends, especially if we admire or are jealous of them. its like with Evie and tracy in thirteen.
@@JMV1616 exaxtly.
I like to think that at least part of Giles' unshakable faith in Buffy her is precisely because he knows how she reacted to the situation in Ted. She's earned the benefit of the doubt by demonstrating her willingness to take responsibility for her actions
For your Buffy and faith lesbian subtext point in season 7 Buffy tells spike " I am tired of defensiveness and weird mixed signals...you know I have Faith for that." Plus, in the comic books Buffy has a lesbian relationship.
+Byron Vasquez Jr. Oh my gosh I had forgot about that. LOVE that line :D
+SashaRicky :) yup. Great line.
Well thanks for that spoiler! >:(
My favorite seasons of Buffy are 6 and 7 because in 6 I feel that they are not fighting a demon but the demons in themselves and in 7 the lines and score are so perfect and emotional that part of season 7 is so great and I love spike
+GiRayne I loved all the seasons of Buffy because I can relate to each of them on a personal level. Season 7 was really special for me because I was preparing for something that year which thematically was consistent with the themes of season 7 which really inspired me. Plus I was an extra in season 7 . So haha love them all!
Faith's character was the common outcome for an undiscovered Potential. The gift of superhuman power coupled with the horrific realization of its cost:a nightmare existence of isolation ending in a brutal and early death.Had her original Watcher survived, she likely would have been like the Slayer of "The Wish", despairing and welcoming death.
Kendra was the idealized(to the loathsome Council) Slayer located as a Potential. Rule bound, unquestioningly subordinate and a weapon easily discarded when used up.
You missed the key reason Faith felt betrayed by Buffy. They were having "secret meetings". GP used that to fracture her from the group. To make her feel separated form the group. Faith thought she was part of the group but realized she wasnt. Thats why she's hurt.
GP: "Secret meetings with her friends"
Faith: "Well I guess that doesn't include me"
A huge revelation in this episode is that Captain Mitchell from Power Rangers Lightspeed Rescue was just a beat cop in Sunnydale and even after losing custody of 2 Slayers he was still promoted to Captian of the Lightspeed Rescue initiative on Power Rangers. Beaurocracy at it's finest.
I found your discussion of the lesbian subtext between Faith and Buffy really interesting! I've always seen it (and shipped it a little 😄) but I hadn't noticed the parallels between Faith and Angel
Regarding Buffy and Faith's subtext, I think there's another point in the series where Faith's interactions with Buffy resemble those of another one of Buffy's love interests. I'm talking about season 6, the episode where Buffy thinks she's killed Warren's girlfriend. She has a fight with Spike about it where he says the same thing Faith does "there's my girl" and uses a similar argument to try to convince her that the death of one person wasn't a big deal since she's saved so many lives already, just like Faith previously did
Yay, subtext! Everyone loves subtext. Also, you HAVE to make the subtext bell a permanent fixture of these reviews, like the Giles knockout counter! And more unimpressed Freud, please. THESE ARE THE THINGS FANS CARE ABOUT! WE'RE INTELLECTUAL AND STUFF!
Ah, season 3. So much goodness, so much unrealized potential. I think this episode is the moment in which we can clearly see that the writers changed their plan for the season halfway through. We don't actually know what that original plan was, but from tidbits one finds on the internet, we can infer a bunch of stuff:
Here are the facts, as best as I know -
1. Faith was originally planned to be killed after a few episodes. I found conflicting stuff about exactly when this was supposed to happen, but it seems she was originally meant to be killed during THIS episode, commiting suicide out of guilt.
2. Angel, the Mayor, and Mr. Trick were always going to be a part of season 3. And the season always going to build toward a confrontation in Graduation Day.
(Man, poor Mr. Trick died in this episode without earning even a second of discussion... Such a wasted character)
From this, I think it's reasonable to guess that the original plan was to treat Faith as a minor shadow-self character for Buffy, kinda like Kendra was in season 2. The main plot was probably going to center around Angel (seeking redemption for his past actions, and building toward a break-up with Buffy), Mr. Trick (playing a similiar role to Spike in season 2) and the Mayor (as the final big bad, like the Master in season 1).
When Faith became such a popular character, the plans changed significantly, which is why this season arc (and this episode in particular) isn't as powerful as it could have been - last minute changes are bad for storytelling (usually).
Which makes me really frustrated - I mean, Joss, come on, how did you NOT see that the Faith-as-Angelus storyline was the obvious storyline for this season from the first minute? Buffy's arc for this season was about learning to have faith in people again after the events of season 2, and what's more perfect for that than a villain like Faith, who's defined by her lack of trust in people? Bad Joss, no cookie. I always believed that this season would have been much more powerful if Angel was simply left out of it completely (or almost completely), and the Buffy-Faith relationship would have been at the center of the story, like Buffy-Angel was at the center of season 2. It could have been romantic, or it could have remained subtextual, but it had to be closer and more dramatic, for the season arc to work as well as season 2's. We could have had it aaaaalllll...
Now, as for the Buffy-Faith subtext... I'd just like to point out that as much as some fans (including me!) would have liked to see this relationship portrayed as more than subtextual, the writers were probably right not to go there - Faith is, quite literally, "the dark slayer", representing an evil version of Buffy. And if the evil version of Buffy is bi-sexual, well, more educated and appropriate people than me could explain why that is problematic and trope-y... Just my 2 cents.
Also, as for why Faith was so hurt at the end of 'Revelations' - While I don't want to downplay the subtext (because yay, subtext!), I think the main reason for Faith's reaction there is that Faith just lost faith (yes, yes...) in humanity in that episode. She was manipulated by Gwen Post completely, she was manipulated by Xander into attacking Angel, she was lied to by Buffy about Angel's return, and she was just left out of the important scooby meeting about Angel ("something about Buffy and her friends". "Oh. I guess that doesn't include me..."). She was pretty much pissed off about EVER PERSON ON THE PLANET at that point, so, her anger toward Buffy wasn't necessarily a jealousy thing.
Another Great review Ian! Kudos!
Wow. Brilliantly said. You got me thinking.
+Guy R "WE'RE INTELLECTUAL AND STUFF!"
I whole-heartedly support this statement.
I find Faith's whole portrayal and the queer-coding to be very problematic, especially considering the virgin/whore dichotomy they create and Faith representing Buffy's darker slayer natures.
That said, I'm also kinda weak for it. What can I say? I'm bisexual. I'm shallow. Buffy's bicuriosity throughout the show is something that kinda gels with me (rewatch Inca Mummy Girl - the scene where the trio are introduced to Ampata). So while I definitely understand your point-of-view about them being right not to go there, I think such issues could have been avoided to begin with if Faith hadn't been so needlessly sexualised in order to create a counterpoint to the comparatively chaste Buffy's whose one sexual experience so far ended in disaster. That's not to say that they can't be portrayed as foils at all, but showing deviance based off sexuality was both an obvious and easy route to take, and also a problematic one. I also think that, had they pursued a relationship beyond subtext, there could have been room for subversion - something the Carmilla webseries does really well where its source was very much a lesbophobic cautionary tale against female sexuality.
But they wouldn't have been able to go there, even if they'd wanted to. Willow was already such a bold move, and they couldn't even show an onscreen kiss between her and Tara for a whole season.
So I guess I'm saying that I would have welcomed a beyond-subtext explicit Buffy and Faith relationship, but at that time, under those network restrictions, it's very unlikely they could have achieved much.
Katherine M I agree that there is some problematic-ness with the whole "dark sexy shadow-self" thing that Faith (as well as tons of characters in fiction - I believe the term is "femme fatalle"?) represents, but at the same time... It's just really good storytelling! It WORKS! I absolutely love Faith, she's one of my favorite characters ever. I really don't know how the writers could have changed her in a way that wouldn't weaken the aspects I love about her. I'm conflicted...
Also - while I recognize that there is a problematic aspect to Faith on a logical level, I just don't see it on the emotional, immediate level. When I watch episodes with Faith, I never get a sense of "this message makes me uncomfortable" or "this message is problematic". I can READ INTO IT if I try, but it isn't something that jumps out at me. But that's just me...
And hey, I'm shallow too! Don't be ashamed, being shallow is awesome! :)
+Guy R I think that any visual and textual conflicts do make the show topical. Even attempting to deconstruct (shoot me now for using the po mo word!) it allows us to understand how these issues attract new viewers and how we can unravel the tough moral questions facing us daily. Yep this is a waaay obvious comment of mine but I'm conveying that viewers still love the programme without being necessarily overtaken by the "GET THIS MESSGAGE" hammer-head. We can do both comfortably: it's *that* layered and elegant.
Joss: "You just wanna see girls kissing."
Me: "Well, yeah."
Yeah that's a weird comment, I think he was coming at it from a straight male perspective as if it was a pervy thing, rather than yes, people do want to see two girls kissing. And he gave us that later with Willow and Tara, which he'd always intended to do...
@@everythingshiny Did he always intend that? I was always under the impression that Tara and their relationship was only truly hatched in the writers room after Seth Green asked off the show, but maybe I misunderstood that history. obviously there’s the hints in Doppelgangland but I’ve also read that the events of Seeing Red were originally conceived with Oz in mind…
Joss: well, best I can do for you is "casting a spell" at the moment so...
Buffy's relationship with Spike was more unhealthier than her's with Angel
MUCH, MUCH UNHEALTHIER
I really can't blame Xander for going to Faith. His night with Faith was important to him, and it's tragic to see him find out it wasn't to her, Xander's "it was more than that" on the bed breaks my heart. I found that scene very comparable to Angel and Buffy's conversation in Innocence, where Buffy finds a soulless Angelus joking over the night before as if it was nothing.
I think you're exactly right. The scenes seem to be set up as parallels, to me.
It's not that comparable though, because Faith and Xander weren't in a loving, committed relationship prior to having sex. While I understand that Xander's experience was important to him, he had to know from the way Faith dismissed him afterwards that it wasn't that important to her. Buffy and Angelus was much, much worse because he'd told her repeatedly that he loved her, so to turn around and callously joke about having sex with her "I thought you were a pro" was heartbreaking.
+Daniel Tarczynski (I still can't reply to your comments inline Daniel) That seems like a very mathematical approach to a
complex piece of art. The resulting complete 45 minute episode is the sum total of all the creativity from every person that had a hand in making it. Joss may not have intended one thing but Eliza may have. A shot may have lingered longer. A musical note indulged a little more richly.
But intention of the artists may not actually matter that much. Once a work is finished and it is turned out to the public it is then subject to the interpretation (biases and all) of the viewer. The interpretation doesn't belong to the artist, it belongs to the interpreter and to some degree the cultural zeitgeist. If a person gets some meaningful bit out of Consequences that Joss didn't intend, is that person's perspective invalid? I don't think so.
And yes, that does invalidate any possibility for this channel finding some absolute academic truth to any of this. Which is why I've always valued the conversation more than flogging some rigid thesis. I am not an academic. I'm more interesting in finding bits that resonate for people in their own lives.
Also I hear you on the Helpless. I just disagree.
"subject to the interpretation of the viewer" -hmm. is this po mo? :) I guess post modern interpretations are in *themselves* subject to rigid polarities.
I tend to subscribe to the text - and if it aint on the page it aint on the stage idea -that's just the way I view it. And I like this ep a lot.
I *do* believe context is as important as motivation and character. I generally prefer to use the word awareness rather than POV in order to move away from the confusion that some post modern analyses can convey. Buffy came out at a time of huge upheaval in academic circles which Joss himself talks about.
I've seen this series more times than I can count, and I picked up on the subtext pretty quickly. I mean the kiss in Enemies and THEN Graduation Day. How many times has Buffy kissed Willow?? And they're besties! But I understood that subtext does not imply that the characters actually have feelings for each other. It wasn't until I did a re-watch of season 4 last year that I adamantly believed Faith's feelings for Buffy actually went beyond subtext. **Season 4 Spoilers ahead**
When Faith woke up from her coma, she wanted revenge on Buffy. But she makes it clear that she's not just angry at Buffy for nearly stabbing her to death. *A.* She's mad because she did it for her boyfriend. *B.* She's mad at Buffy for forgetting about her. When she finds out Buffy is with Riley she gets even more pissed and sees their relationship as the reason Buffy forgot about her. That's when it occurred to me -- she tried to bang Angel, and she banged Riley, but it wasn't because she wanted _them_. It was because she wanted _Buffy_. And because she couldn't have Buffy she tried to sabotage her relationships.
Why did this realization hit me last time and not the first hundred times I watched "This Year's Girl/Who Are You"?? Because of a very similar Degrassi storyline I had recently seen...
A girl named Fiona was constantly chasing away her twin brother's girlfriends. Fiona's rivalry w/ one gf, Holly J, gets so intense that Holly J tells Fiona her jealousy is inappropriate. Fiona responds by kissing her own twin brother on the mouth, which temporarily breaks up his relationship w/ Holly J. The next season it's revealed that Fiona is a lesbian and is in love with Holly J... You guys may see this as a coincidence. But there are 2 things I don't believe in. Coincidence and Leprechauns....
The reason you came to this conclusion was, I think, because of Degrassi, imo: Confirmation Bias. With respect, I think that Faith wants to be recognised as Buffy is: Buffy has it all: a mum, boyfriends at her heels, best friends of both sexes, a retired watcher and love. Faith wants what Buffy has.
@@theresechristiansen9769 True, but she also clearly has a massive crush on Buffy.
The whole series is very similar to Degrassi and there are so many episodes that are very very similar to Degrassi eps...but with vampires. Maybe that's by design or they were just both inspired by the same source material (high school, teen issues, growing up, etc).
The subtext is definitely something that seemed noticeable upon initially watching, but I never thought much of it besides faith being a character that finds strength in her sexuality. Your analysis brings up some interesting points about Buffy's side of that interaction and actually puts a lot more context to some of the themes dealt with in the season 8 Comics that previously felt out of left field. So thank you for that.
Yeah I always noticed Faith using her sexuality but on later watches I also notice how dismissive she is of men and that the only men she goes after are Buffy's paramours
When I first watched Buffy I was way too young to understand the Buffy and Faith relationship and their chemistry but looking back on it now... I get it.
Great episode! I love the lesbian subtext bell! I figured that was what is was after the first ring. lol. I'm a big shipper of Buffy and Faith, and s3 (especially Bad Girls and Consequences) is a big reason why. I do think Faith is a bit jealous that Buffy chooses Angel every time. Might be why she does certain things, later in the season. I think Doug Petrie was a fan of Buffy and Faith too. The original script for Enemies had them kiss, and the network said no. Sadly.
As for Buffy's morality. Well she does evolve a bit later on. But here in s3 I think things are pretty black and white when it comes to evil. I don't know why Buffy didn't try to relate to Faith more, by bringing up the whole Ted incident. I do love the relationship between Faith and Angel, and it all starts here in Consequences.
+Ash M : Also, Giles hasn't been getting knocked out lately so it's good to have more than one running gag in these reviews :-)
Because the writers had forgotten about Ted.
Seriously, seriously wish the Faith/Buffy dynamic played out better in Season 3 and not just cuz of the lesbian "subtext." Faith is definitely a temptress, but at the same time, she was also good at getting Buffy to loosen up...
I'm srsly digging myself a hole I can't get out of here.
What I love so much also is the way Buffy is able to stop just before killing vamp Willow as Willow says stop.
the lesbian subtext makes me appreciate the bond Buffy and Faith had before the rift between them happened. No wonder Will felt threatened she was losing her female BFF
indie ballads playing over montages of people looking sad is one of my favourite tropes & I will never be tired of it.
Also...kinda really wish Faith's sexual assault of Xander and rape of another character later on (we're avoiding spoilers here yeah?) were fully addressed.
The show seems to have some pretty weird ideas about what does and does not constitute sexual assault when it's a woman committing the crime (also seen in Once More With Feeling) and it's always bothered me.
I love Faith and her character arc across both shows but this episode and Who Are You are always...awkward...
+Steven Millett yes, I agree. I am only at the end of Season 3 but that Scene with faith and xander rubbed me the wrong way. I wish it would hva ebeen mentioned more.
+Steven Millett Yeah I thought for sure he would address Faith's sexual assault on Xander. If for no other reason than to say how unusual it was. I can't think of any other show where we almost see a man get raped by a woman. Only in Buffy...
+Steven Millett They mishandled that. It'll be in the Doppelgangland review.
+Steven Millett I don't understand. What is it exactly that bothers you about Faith's "rapiness" in this episode and 'Who are you'?
I mean, this episode clearly paints Faith's actions with Xander as very, very wrong. It doesn't use the words "sexual assault", but I think that's because the sexual assault quickly escalated into an attempted murder, which is obviously worse. And that's what that scene is treated as - as Faith doing something very bad, and spiraling further into immorality. I don't see how the show is being "awkward" about it.
As for 'Who Are You' - Again, the word "rape" isn't mentioned, but the situation is clearly painted as being beyond messed up. I think the word "rape" was only avoided because the supernatural nature of the events makes it ambiguous. But the situation clearly paints Faith's actions (which could be interpreted as being a rape of either Buffy, or Riley, or both. Probably both) as immoral and twisted.
Buffy was an integral part of me coming into realization about my sexuality. I fully understand that I probably see subtext where there is none occasionally, but how people don’t see it in Faith has always baffled me. I guess it comes down to what a person wants to see. Much like I see lesbian subtext where there is none because that’s what I want, others may ignore it when it is there because that’s what they want. Either way, I’m seriously grateful you included it here.
Lesbian Subtext Bell had me in stitches 😀
Buffy impressed me in this episode with her determination to save Faith.
Great review as always.
The comparisons between season 2 and 3 are top-notch.
The Lesbian Subtext thing was dope. Great analysis.
TBH, i understand why most people wouldn't get the lesbian subtext. I think if you're straight, you're not used to look for these romantic subtexts between people of the same sex, even when you see them right away when the characters are a man and a woman. What you look for in fiction is what you look for in real life.
That's why queerbaiting is a thing that's so hard to explain to most straight people, the response is usually "But they're friends!"
It's also why i see lesbians everywhere.
I never got the lesbian subtext when I first watched the show(granted I was 8) and I was a hopeless Buffy/Angel fan and thought they were " Meant to Be" I see it now though, now that I am older and not so naive. For me fiction is different, I don't look for what I have in real life, because I have it. Which is probably why I love the Faith/Drusilla type characters so much, because it's something I could never be and I kind of like getting lost in that..... If that makes any sense. People look for what they want to see. I am a huge NCIS fan for example and so many people I know ship Gibbs and Abby, and I don't at all it's a father/daughter relationship to me. I don't ever see romantic intentions in their relationship, but I know so many people who do.
+Nat W I know what you mean, we can read between the lines much clearer in many cases. Sometimes it can be touching, other times confusing, but always interesting.
Oh boy, I'm with you there. I was watching the video and my mom came in right when Ian was talking about the subtext. She listened for a while and then concluded that "this person is clearly reading far too into this and is a bit of a dick". First of all, out of context much. Second, she acts as if this idea is niche, like half the fandom didn't already see it. Third, what is it with this outdated idea that lesbians only exist if straight people give them permission to? Like, Eliza was playing Faith a certain way, and who is my mom - a straight person - to decide the definitive way in which she was playing the character? Fourth, she's seen "romantic undercurrents" between het people when there's far less evidence than this in the past.. Heteronormativity runs deep in even the most well-meaning of people I guess.
yah, people not getting Buffy-Faith always kinda confused me. As a bi-romantic asexual person who misses sexual subtext all the time, I thought it was very obvious there was sexual subtext. I mean, keep in mind Buffy and Faith are both women, and women are shown having relationships that aren't "kinda gay" all the time (as are men), it's actually hetero friendships that are so rarely and preciously allowed to not end with them screwing (hell, even if one's gay half the time they still screw), so I'd have no reason to ship Faith-Buffy being platonic the way I ship Mason-George on Dead Like Me, or Worth-Leaven in Cube cause Faith-Buffy being platonic wouldn't be unique and special the way, say, Mason-George is...but I'd still like to think that even when I'm not actively rooting against characters screwing I'm still fairly oblivious to sexual subtext lol.
not that non-same sex friends falling in love/being sexually into each other is bad, in fact I think it's good for people to have multiple, varied models for that...I just wish that I also have multiple, varied models showing me that it's not wrong to want to be friends and that feelings of friendship and companionship aren't less important just cause they aren't sexual. So like I'm happy in Buffy that both Buffy and Giles are shown having sexual relationships, but I'm also really happy that Buffy met a much older father figure guy who thought of her like a daughter, they developed some of the most intimate and intense feelings of love for each other on the show, and no one was like "Buffy and Giles should be sexually into each other", and I think (really) everyone else is happy with that too...yet you can't tell me that on many, lesser shows than Buffy that isn't *exactly* what happens. Which is when I kinda ship when it doesn't happen.
I always thought Buffy and faith wore soulmates in the literal sense they are the two pieces of the slayer soul longing to rejoin in one body and the reason why Buffy don't have the same "chemistry" with kendra (hope to God that's the right name) is because of the distance. Kendra lived on another content and faith was basically living with Buffy anyways that's my own personal headCannon
Seriously, can we ALL agree so many conflicts could have been avoided if Xander weren't so...."Xander?"
I'm surprised to hear this! Xander is the representation of a normal person in the scooby gang, someone that isn't special. We had Willow who was the smart one/eventual witch, Giles that was very knowledgeable and had person to turn to for decision-making. If present, Angel was remarkably strong and had intel.
But what did Xander have? Nothing much but was just a regular guy. He gave some pretty insightful advice and ideas though. Xander is like if the viewer was living in this Buffyverse and a part of the team. I don't even think he caused much conflicts honestly...
If anything, I'd be saying that SO MANY conflicts could have been avoided if Dawn weren't so... "Dawn". Now that is a character responsible for soooo much conflict, don't even know where to start lmao
I'm weirdly reminded of Shrek 2 when Shrek says to Donkey "For 5 minutes could you not be yourself. FOR 5 MINUTES." I can imagine someone saying that to Xander.
I can imagine being a slayer that's typically overwhelming both positively and negatively, but then to find you're not so alone would immediately create an intense bond similar to what is seen as a soulmate. We can read further if we want, but the inherent bond, which we did see a bit with Kendra even, is something people would have a hard time grasping without probably putting romantic or sexual feelings on it. You are a girl with immense power, doomed to die young and walk the earth different than everyone seeing the darkest things... wait, hold up, I get a gal pal who understands all of this already?!
But then all that and to feel turned on, betrayed, left in the dark, that that person isn't ask enamored or in need of your company as you'd become of theirs. Crushing.
" We're better! "
That's 120% Erik! Amazing.
I wish we got more Faith in the show but what we get later in the series is all great
Even ignoring the lesbian subtext, Buffy and Faith were a love story. They were structured like that. All of the other friendships on the show were simple and didn't have the angst Faith and Buffy had. And the whole "will they, won't they" magnified it.
YES! THANK YOU so much for getting into the lesbian subtext! And i never knew what Joss view was on it, and the fact that he owned up to it makes me respect him even more! I hope you will discuss this in later episodes too!
@El Ultimo Pibe Piola de Internet yep this didnt age well.
To be honest, it was a problem for me when Angel turned in season 2, that I didn't know enough about his character that is, and in some ways, it is a little easier to enjoy it on more levels having watching Angel the Series.
I think the seduction interpretation is valid, given that Faith spends a lot of the season acting like the devil on Buffy's shoulder but there are also sibling-like elements to their relationship. Faith needs love in her life, whatever kind, but often, there are real problems with trying to keep people around if they aren't family or love interests, (and both are kinds of relationships which Faith has been let down by) that's a little bit how I read the kind of fixation Faith has on Buffy and their shared slayerness; as just trying to hold on to a connection.
When Faith cuts Buffy out emotionally, she cuts off potential ties to the world, in a way that she arguably never fully repairs. The familial relationship with the Mayor that she gets, is conditional, as she can't be on the side of the living, which as a living person, means she can't be on her own side really. Even as a human, she winds up seeming almost vampiric for a while, convincing herself she doesn't have a conscience; she almost acts the way recently sired vampires do. I may not have a whole point, or if I do, I risk writing an essay....
For me that "Faith is Angel" bit was too much like "Ben is Glory" :D
Dammit, I'm supposed to be doing homework that's due tomorrow!
+Samara Smarts I'm glad I'm not the only one procrastinating here!
+Samara Smarts Wow, there are a lot of us apparently.
Procrastinators unite! ......eventually
+Rupti Doolooroodoo That's VERY GOOD! It had me laughing immediately!
When I first watched Buffy, my favourite season was 3. This was mainly in part due to great episodes like this one. I find it interesting though when you talk about the emotional attachment because upon re watching the seasons, my love for the arc in season 2 has grown to the point where I believe it surpasses that of season 3. Keep up the great work btw, your vids are awesome and help me look at what is my favourite show in a different light.
I just recently found this channel during my second viewing of BtVS. I've been binge watching and am sad that I'm almost to the end of the posted videos and will now have to wait each week for new videos to be posted with everyone else. I had planned to go back and read comments after I finished binge watching while I was awaiting the next video but I find the philosophical and ethical implications raised in this video too interesting to not stop here to read and comment. For the most part, you artfully and succinctly verbalize exactly what I am thinking (much more abstractly) and then build on it. I find that my emotional reactions to particular scenes and episodes are very often in line with yours, which makes this even more gratifying. There are times when I am watching these videos alone and I consider standing and applauding just because I think the ovation is so well-deserved that it needs to be put out there in the universe. You often include discussions of other viewpoints and references to comments on this channel that I hadn't considered; and you do great justice to the artistic and production aspects, which are generally lost on me if they aren't pointed out, and this adds a new and interesting layer to my viewing.
Your analysis of Faith's attempt to apply utilitarian thinking to Allen's death is interesting but this is one of the first of your analyses I had trouble with. That is, until you reached your final point. You talk about how we don't know that Allen wouldn't have gone on to provide valuable information that saved lives. My issue with this is that we also don't know that he wasn't just about to release a virus that would end all life on the planet. Obviously, that wouldn't fit the storyline well but my point is that absent any ability to predict what a person's future holds, what can we do but rely on the simple numbers? I'm not necessarily advocating for utilitarianism but I think there's a more complex reason why it's simplicity is seductive. With your final statement in this discussion that "if there is math to existence, it's an equation we're simply not capable of reading in its entirety," you, again, perfectly articulated my abstract thought process about this or at least where it was headed.
So much of what's on social media these days makes you feel dumber after watching. Thanks for offering a cure!
My biggest issue with the reactions to Faith's actions is the constant judgement that she is a "murderer," it was honestly a very awkwardly paced accident that I don't think deserved the moral weight it received. I just think that it would have made more sense to react that way if she had acted rashly after knowing it was Allan. With Ted, Buffy intentionally murders what she believes is a man. With Allan, Faith had simply made a mistake of motion. I think her reaction to it definitely shows her flawed character, but I don't think she should have immediately been put on the murder pedestal
AGREED. The podcast Buffering the Vampire Slayer talks about this at some length, when Angel tries to talk to Faith and overly relates her situation to his, which is actually completely different, and treats her like she's "a straight up cold blooded killer" which is what she comes back at him with when she's trying to seduce him in Enemies. The fact that they all see so much darkness in her when there's so much light trying desperately to escape breaks my heart.
Buffy tried to hurt Ted (before she knew he was a robot), but there was clearly no murderous intent.
He fell down the stairs.
I agree, I didn't like how it was handled in season 3.
I love you for doing these, please never leave!
thank you! man this show has so many details and parallels i'm not aware of.. so thanks for showing Them to us! can't wait for the next one! i feel like this season SHOULD be my favourite, but i have to give the crown to the fifth or sixth season.. although i appreciated 3 a lot more on rewatch.
I love your reviews, its like i'm watching a whole new serie and i love it! My inner buffy fan thanks you
i can't wait for the next episode guide :) i have watched buffy about...i have no idea how many times but i enjoy these guides sooo much!
Supposed to be doing prep for a tutorial tomorrow but nah, going to watch this a few times! Very good as always, Ian. As ever, bringing out tropes and themes I've subconsciously noticed but not analysed fully.
Bless you for shining a light on my OTP
I had a whole list of comments written out and unintentionally deleted it. So instead of spending another hour to two rewriting, just re my comments on Bad Girls and understand that I blame the Scoobies overall for Faith feeling like The Mayor was where she had to go. Sorry.
Doing a rewatch so I can watch each episode and then these guides. Awesome stuff
One of your best yet
Yay! You made my Monday with this video!
It is interesting that the scene with actual rape and killing of Xander is not as sharply perceived as a scene with an attempt to rape Buffy.
Was about to rest up for my last two exams. Had to put that on hold when I saw this pop up.
Another phenomenal video! I can't wait 'till you get to Angel, where so many characters (including Faith) developed in deep and wonderful ways. :D
Your channel is my favourite channel on RUclips!! THANKS for the amazing videos! Can't wait for Angel videos! :)
Watching this it reminded me of what Holden says to Buffy in S7 Conversations with Dead People. He says that Scott Hope told him she was gay. I always just thought perhaps Scott had spread that rumour out of spite but now I wonder if he genuinely believed it. When he broke up with Buffy in Homecoming he said that before they were going out she used to be so full of life but now seems distracted. Then in the weeks following, from his perspective, Buffy and Faith seem to be together. He probably concluded that the reason it didn’t work out with them was because Buffy is gay. I was expecting you to make a nod to that but I guess it’s too early to be talking about season 7. Perhaps you’ll refer back to this video when you do the Conversations with Dead People video?
Very good as always! Personally I always felt that the logic about killing humans in the show, specifically between "Ted" and "Bad Girls/Consequences" didn't really add upp, but you're making me question that assumption.
This episode isn't perfect but certainly important for launching the rest of the season, as well as Faith's incredibly interesting development as a character. She's easily one of the most fascinating characters on the show, and because of that I do agree that she should have gotten more screen time. Still, season three is a favorite of mine. Looking forward to your next review! :)
I always thought the subtext/connection between Faith and Buffy was the two sides of the same coin idea. Perhaps the traits displayed by Faith, when played by a women, appear to be lesbian in nature when directed at the same sex, but I thought of it more as self love or appreciation. When the 2 characters begin to click I saw it as, Faith loves seeing herself in Buffy acting more faith like, from Buffy's perspective she's giving in to the devil on her shoulder and enjoying herself.
Yes! Thats how i saw it also.
I am extremely pumped for the next one, it's my favourite season 3 episode
I cannot LOVE this channel enough!!!
As much as I adore the Faith/Mayor interaction in the last part of this season, Bad Girls/Consequences always feel like a grinding gear shift to get there. Previously Faith had been portrayed as a troubled but essentially good "friend from work" for Buffy. Then in just one episode she becomes her bestie and a terrible influence, both of which get broken off at the end of said episode, and at the end of the next she goes over to the Mayor, who she has never met before. All of that could have been woven into the season so far so much better.
Have Faith and Buffy get closer over several episodes. Perhaps Faith could be the one person backing Buffy up after her keeping Angel a secret came out. Heck, perhaps she could've been the first to discover he was back but kept the secret, making Buffy refusing to keep Faith's own dead guy related secret even more of a betrayal in her eyes. Or, and this really is a massive wasted opportunity in my eyes: have the two of them bond over being betrayed by their Watchers after Giles hypnotized and drugged Buffy!
As for the Mayor, wouldn't it have made a lot more sense for him to come to Faith, promising to make the issue of Alan's death go away if she comes work for him? He's supposed to be in control of this town, and if he's manipulating the Slayers into taking out Balthazar anyway, wouldn't you expect him to try and recruit Faith as she began spiraling?
(Of course, ideally season three would be at least half as long, allowing for an entire Faith-centric episode and an entire Mayor-centric one, ideally exploring what he was up to during the previous seasons and giving us some Mayor/Scooby Gang interaction before they know he's evil.)
Another great guide episode!!!
This is so good. I NEED MORE
I really liked that Faith got to kill Trick as the final piece of revenge for what happened to her watcher. Also, it's interesting to realize that without Allan's death and Faith's defection to The Mayor they may have been completely unaware of how evil The Mayor was or just unable to defeat him in Graduation Day. Faith is very much playing the role of the Judas whose betrayal puts everything that has to happen into motion.
Currently preparing a Buffy tabletop campaign (yes this actually is a thing that exists) and your videos are a big help for subtext prep! :D
Keep up the good work!
Seven years on, how did it go? Can it be bought anywhere?
>explosive season finale
>explosive
love hwen you review the big episodes, cant wait to see you talk about my favorite scene from graduation day.
As Giles once said, I'm afraid the subtext is rapidly becoming text...
I love everything about your reviews. They are so thoroughly thought out, well written, well organized and amazingly edited. I always see things I hadn't noticed before. I really hope you never stop making them!! I will stay through till the end no matter how long it takes :).If you ever wanted to make more top 10 videos or separate videos, I would love to see you do top 10 characters, a ranking of your favorite seasons, top 10 Buffy episodes, top 10 Angel episodes, best fight scenes, top 10 worst episodes of each, favorite relationships, etc! I would also really love to see detailed character analysis on every character, especially Willow, Wesley, and Faith.I am SO happy that you are addressing the lesbian subtext. It's one of my favorite aspects of the show! I ship them and definitely think Faith had feelings for Buffy--which in my opinion was made canon in season 7, with The First as The Mayor's speech to Faith, and Buffy acknowledging the weird mixed signals between her and Faith, which are very similar to her and Spike. F/B and S/B mirror each other in a lot of ways. If you felt like it I would love if you combined all of your analysis of them into a separate video at the end :). To me things are made abundantly clear in This Year's Girl and Who Are You? with Faith's jealousy over Riley and her anger that Buffy forgot about her. (And then her...bath in Buffy's body.) There are just seriously too many moments to mention. Faith's innuendoes to Buffy are ridiculous. Season 3 is my favorite and feels plenty emotional to me. Especially the last few episodes!Lastly, thank you so much for this channel!!! I really appreciate all of the effort you put into your videos. It definitely shows, and I'm so grateful! XOXO
*SPOILERS*
I love the contrast between how Buffy treats Faith and how Angel does despite the fact that they both so clearly care about her. There's complexity with Faith and as we've seen with Buffy, she has a hard time with that. Faith pushes and, bless her heart, Buffy tries...but then Faith pushes too hard. So Buffy leaves. With Angel, there's not really as much complexity. He's not linked to Faith in the same way that Buffy is. So even when Faith pushes literally as hard as she possibly could, he doesn't leave. To quote Faith herself, "Angel's the only person in my life who never gave up on me." That's really sweet.
Annnnd now I have to go read some Fuffy! Another great episode, can't wait for the next one!
Just wanted to let you know that in my current rewatch I literally hear your lesbian subtext bell ring in my head during Faith and Buffy moments. That's forever a thing in my head now and I love it.
Awesome analysis as always. To your point about Buffy and Faith representing opposite ends of moral development -- there is a fairly well-known limitation of Kohlberg's theory in how it applies to women vs men. After testing lots of subjects, Kohlberg concluded that women were either less likely or incapable of reaching what he had defined as the highest levels of moral development. The answering theory is one by Carol Gilligan who found that women just use a completely different measuring stick for morality -- their moral development is on a scale of interpersonal relationships rather than cultural contracts. I'd be interested to see how you think that applies to Buffy, Faith and this episode in particular.
This is really interesting. As I read through Kohlberg's stages, I found that I could pretty closely fit myself and other women I know well into those stages. However, it wasn't exact. I actually found myself making the exact adjustment you describe, shifting toward interpersonal relationships in place of social contracts, in all but the first two stages. I will definitely check out Gilligan's take on this but I agree with you. I would love to hear Ian's thoughts on how this applies to Buffy and Faith.
Yay been waiting for this,
Good work as always.
The beginning of Faith's downward spiral. I've always noticed the subtext with Buffy/Faith, but I don't care about shipping, even though you speak about it in a completely objective, non shipping, non bias way which is wonderful and quite frankly refreshing.
Incoming Season 4/Willow mini rant sort of tied to this. (Spoilers). I love Willow, this doesn't mean anything negative/offensive about the woman, just a story side rant.
What I would say is as difficult as it was for Whedon to get the LGBT stuff in there without having to bury it in subtext. I'll always feel that having Willow go straight lesbian was bit of a copout, even with all hard work to get her there. As groundbreaking as it was. As beautiful a relationship that was formed with Tara. I honestly think its something Whedon cooked up because he didn't want Seth Green/Oz around as a recurring character as Seth wanted in Season 4. I think if Seth Green didn't leave for movies. I'm not so sure Willow as a character would've transitioned into one of the greatest gay characters in film history had the Oz character still floated around. Also with the history with Xander, her pervy attraction to Giles. The groundwork was there for her as a straight character.
It was one of my biggest gripes about Season 4, so I guess I should expand it on there when we get there. I think Willow should've been bi curious/bi sexual. I think it would've even furthered her evolution as a character compared to where it was already. But given Whedon had to bury a lot of that stuff in subtext. Perhaps Willow being bi sexual was going for too much.
I'm conflicted between seasons 2 and 3. Although the show as a whole is amazing, I feel 2 and 3 are perhaps the absolute peak of the show's brilliance
Agreed. Surprise/Innocence/Passion/Becoming 1&2 are absolutely epic, but season 2 has a lot more clangers than season 3. Season 3 will always be my favourite. The show lost me in season 6.
I actually agree with You PTN. After such a powerful episode like "Bad Girls" this episode kind of came off as Blah to me. I was trying to figure out for years why I never fully liked "Consequences" And I think I figured it out. For a Faith-Centric episode there was enough FAITH. She really should have been the titular focus this episode instead of other's reacting around what she did. It's almost like that conversation where everyone is talking about you instead of to you. I felt this was a chance to give an audience a more one-on-one intimate look into Faith's mindset.....her past.....her thoughts and ultimately what led her to, at that exact moment, choose to join the mayor. I just felt the writing really shut Faith out and focused entirely too much on Buffy this episode. By the way I absolutely adore you for the Lesbian Subtext shout out. When I was young and watched this I loved picking up on it and was actually sad that they didn't delve into that deeper.
+Cleapatra25 I think you're right. More than that: I think Faith was ALWAYS better as a leading character than as a supporting character. She works best as the center of the story, not a side player. My favorite Faith episodes were always the ones that put her at the center - "Who Are You", "Five By Five", "Release", etc...
Guy R Which is why I'm saddened that Eliza Dushku didn't accept a role on Angel. I know she was offered one for way back in season 2 of Angel. Angel focused on more characters then just *Angel*. Where as Buffy primarily focused on her and maybe the Scoobies every now and then.
Cleapatra25 A role *on* Angel? She should have gotten a lead role *instead* of Angel! Faith was created to be a lead character, IMO. She's pretty much the same character as Jessica Jones, and Jessica Jones is a protagonist.
+Guy R I agree with this!!!!! HOWEVER.....It would have been sort of on par with Angel. Sort of the same type of show actually. I believe for that reason it would have fizzled both shows out. I think Faith would have been a great addition to Angel but alas both of our ideas never happened.
Cleapatra25 I just want the Angel spinoff, but with Faith as the lead instead of Angel. Keep Angel in that hell dimension Buffy sent him to. But yeah, we got boned. The closest we can get is the 'Angel & Faith' comics. Which are, actually, pretty damn awesome. I would have still prefered a TV show, obviously, but that's the second best thing.
Ooooooohhh, "Dopplegangland" is next!
+Irvin Maddox omg that's literally what i said when it ended hahaha
By far my fave episode
+Irvin Maddox *watches immediately*
YES!
I found the commentary on the "lesbian subtext" very interesting. Personally, the first couple of times I watched Buffy I noticed a lot of these things, but based on my own experiences I thought of it as totally standard heterosexual behavior given the context. Girls made passes like this at each other all the time on my high school basketball team and when I talk to other friends on sports teams they describe similar behavior between team members, many of whom are heterosexual and generally pretty stayed. So I was just like, "yeah, Buffy and Faith are like team members." They don't have that much in common, but you spend enough time together in a physical environment and it creates a unique relationship where you are VERY physically and emotionally comfortable with each other and it opens the door to talk about sex and to make semi-joking passes at each other and experiment with more sexual behavior (for example, erotic dancing). I think Faith saying that slaying that makes her hungry and horny, emphasizing the arousing side of slaying itself, supports this idea. So personally I didn't read it as either Faith or Buffy being lesbian or bisexual, although you certainly can read it that way, too. It's funny how much your own background influences your interpretation of these things.
Faith is so mad, because Angelous tortured Giles. Her own watcher was very recently killed by Kakistos, so she's conflating the two things.
It's a very good video. Thank you !
Even as a teenager join first watch, I snafus read Faith as a front damaged girl who'd been repeatedly abused and harmed, the product of both neglect, and childhood abuse. And I always felt like the subtext was that he world view on men had been heavily informed by SA in her past.
Granted, that was probably me "over identifying much" as Cordelia would say. Given that I was grappling with my own trauma from a childhood of abuse, that's always how I read it.
And I related so deeply to Faith, her guarded nature, tendency to isolate, self sabotage and push people away, rather than rushing trust and vulnerability.
I always just understood Faith. So I could also understand why she flipped to the dark side.
But actually, that became sort of a lesson for me, something I needed to see unfold to really grapple with the consequences of my own trauma induced self destructive tendencies.
It was a while before I did actually heal and deal with my own trauma, but Faith's arc always resonated with me. Especially because I found a surrogate father figure of my own in my track coach. The only difference is, he was a genuinely wonderful person and not evil. But I always saw myself in Faith and saw her as the kind of person I could've become if I'd let my pain and cynicism consume me instead of dealing with it.
That was also why her redemption arc on Angel was also so damn meaningful to me.
Anyway, point is, I always read the undertones in Faith's character as being rooted deeply in trauma.
(Whispers) Buffy and Faith is the endgame couple of this series. They've had enough trash boys, they need girl love.
+Kristen Mozzarella It might interest you to know that the comics have been dropping hints at this. Big ones. Will it happen? There's a couple of big obstacles to overcome but it's possible.
+tsstevensts 99% sure end game is Spike and Buffy, especially in the comics
Angel. Faith. Ftw.
Buffy/Faith is so much better than Buffy/Spike (ugh) OR Buffy/Angel (meh) OR Faith/Angel (nope).
I think Joss has actually said he always thought Buffy and Xander were the endgame
A good thing that in the show whether you have a soul or not or another thing entirely you are not excused from your past bad behavior and shows that karma and past atrocities can and will catch up to you at some time
Faith definitely had a crush on Buffy, but I don't think it went the other way around. They always had a personal bond, probably because of the mystical bond between them, but Buffy's feelings for Faith were sisterly, while Faith's feelings for Buffy were romantic.
Another great guide
Not really to do with this episode but I know this crowd will understand: Anyone else think that Captain America:Civil War had bunch of similarities (SPOILERS AHEAD) to 'Lies my parents told me' plot-wise I mean with the allies fighting a bigger evil but one of them killed their mother whilst they were not in control of their actions and then someone protecting them because they understand, like even some of the shots were the same. I'm not sayings thats bad or they copied or anything there are only a finite number of plots but I just wanted to throw it out there and see what people thought- knew you guys would get it :D
the ballad in this episode is by one of my favourite singer-songwriters/voice actresses (kathleen wilhoite) and i had no idea she had a song in this show until i watched the episode and it was a very weird moment of feeling the sadness and hurt of the characters mixed with the excitement of hearing a favourite unknown artist when you're not expecting to
If Giles hadn’t acted like a huge drama queen about it & told Faith how “it’s tragic but accidents have happened” instead of Buffy, he could have taught her to manage her guilt instead of reaffirming her badness.
Season 6 spoilers!
What do you think about the way Faith's assault/rape of Xander is handled compared to how Spike's attempted rape of Buffy is handled? A lot of viewers find it problematic that Buffy's attempted rape is used to further _Spike's_ character while Buffy's character is mostly unaffected by it, and I more or less agree. However, Xander's attempted rape is _also_ used to further his rapist's character arc, while Xander is mostly unaffected going forward. Faith goes through this whole redemption arc (much like Spike later did) as a result of the incident, implying that she was more wounded by the experience than Xander was despite being the perpetrator (much like Spike was). I find this somewhat problematic, too.
The problem is, there are waaaaay more people who complain about the Spike/Buffy incident than there are who complain about the Faith/Xander incident, and I've never seen anyone else consider the unfortunate implications of the latter unless I've brought it up first. This really bugs me, as it seems like such a massive double standard for the man's sexual abuse to go unnoticed but for the woman's to be this big controversy. If someone is (understandably) wigged out by how Buffy's attempted rape and its fallout are treated, why not Xander's? If someone is bothered by one they should be bothered by the other, IMO.
+Zernium I think their sex in The Zeppo was consensual (yes consent wasn't spoken and according to the definition of rape consent can't be unambiguous but if you go that route you're indicting 75 percent of the love scenes in any movie or TV show) but the assault in Consequences DOES get swept away. But those two events (counting Seeing Red) are not the only two consent issues in the series. There's also Willow Tara in Once More With Feeling, which arguably does not get swept away.
But as I mention in the next review, I have a big problem with the assault in this episode being ignored.
I don't have a moral problem with their sex in "The Zeppo," either; that was consensual. And yeah, there are other consent issues in the series, some of which are dealt with very well. My problem is mostly with the two actual rape/near-rape scenes, and how so many people have a problem with Buffy's rape but don't have a problem with Xander's. I've heard people claim that Spike's assault nearly ruined the show for them or that they were never comfortable with Spike's character again, but they won't have the same hang-ups with Faith.
In any case, I'm glad you'll be talking about this in the future! Love your work!
+Zernium I'm really glad someone else has mentioned this, as it's bothered me too. Not just how the attempted rapes are used to further the plots and redemption arcs of the perpetrators but, like you said, how rarely I hear mention of Faith's actions with Xander compared to Spike's.
As much of a problem I have with the Spike situation and how they don't even make it about Buffy, at least characters react to it. Faith's attempted rape of Xander is mentioned on the show, what, like once? And in Angel, Faith's guilt mainly pertains to her murders and treatment of Buffy. I agree that it seems like a double standard.
Not to mention the other male victim case when Buffy is angry at Riley after he unknowingly has sex with Faith, as if he cheated on her. Even when she realizes he didn't, Riley's still not really seen as a victim. And again, Faith's later guilt surrounding it is more about how it hurt Buffy, not Riley.
I've been thinking a lot about this issue since I rewatched this episode and the following came to mind: Perhaps Xander never told anyone what exactly happened in Faith's motel room. He just doesn't strike me as someone who would openly talk about being sexually assaulted by a woman, because such an event is (very unfortunately) considered to be a sign of weakness and downright embarassing for most men.
It would be extremely detrimental to this character's efforts to maintain a certain kind of masculinity and though he constantly fails to do so anyway, he probably wouldn't want to further undermine these efforts - even if it means letting a criminal walk around freely. Whenever Xander was threatened to be sexually violated before, extremely powerful and gruesome monsters and mythical creatures were involved, but even in these cases he wanted to forget about the events as soon as possible and never mention them again. Now, consider what would go on in his mind after almost getting raped and killed by a human women - even though she's a slayer. From my perception of the character, he would want to get rid of this feeling of humiliation as soon as possible and just bury it deep down in his subconcious.
Of course, this is just a possible in-world explanation for what happened and it doesn't change a thing about the very problematic implications of these events and the way the other characters react (or rather: not react) to them. It would have been possible to at least show Xander being hurt, haunted by the horrible experience while not seeking help from his friends. That the show instead just treated the sexual assault of this male character more or less as a non-issue is very unfortunate.
I'd agree that it wasn't rape in the Zeppo at least. A mate of mine, in response to that question typed out said scene and made me re-watch it! Xander says: "I've never been up with people before" and when Faith reassures him with: "don't be anxious" and "take your pants off" Xander states: "those two are antithetical." No-where in the scene is it depicted as assault. It's a quick sex experience which, noticeably, involves Faith and Xander snuggling comfortably before she hops up and says "I need a shower. Byee." The incipient problem in Consequences, however, is different.
I see the lesbian subtext as being more of a by-product of Slayerhood as representing the female sex and feminine sexuality. I've noticed a couple times how the Slayer is symbolised by cats. Firstly there's the dream they share at the end of s3 "who's going to look after him?" "it's a she. and aren't these things supposed to take care of themselves?". Then there's the mountain lion which guides Buffy to the First Slayer in 'Intervention' - who is very feline in movement (I think in 'Restless' she makes some very cat-like screams as well). I see the feline as a symbol for the Slayer, and both in turn as metaphors for female sexuality. And so when you've got two Slayers together, the lesbian subtext kinds of seeps out. Except for the shared dream sequences, which are more about sisterhood/platonic love - philia instead of éros, to be more fancy.
+Alistair Drennan I see the cat as a sneaky metaphor to lesbianism (on some level). Remember in season 4 when Tara asks Willow if she like cats or dogs, and then they adopt a cat together?
+Alistair Drennan I was bummed that Miss Kitty Fantastico never turned out to be a Monster of the Week. It would have been interesting, what with the whole not-having-a-real-name talk in Restless.
+Dave Wolf oh yeah I forgot about Miss Kitty Fantastico. The sequence involving her in Restless adds to my theory of cat=slayer. I don't really share your opinion of her being a MOTW though haha
+Clementine Hetherington and of course in Restless, the cat is a link to the Slayer again. Tara says "You'd think she would have told us her name by now" to which Willow replies "She will. She's not all grown yet." And in Tabula Rasa Buffy names herself Joan. Lots of cat slayer lesbian stuff happening!
very good reply! said out some stuff in my head.
wait what... new episode already. What have you done, I was suppose to go to sleep already. Faith at the end with the glass, this is just going to be a normal thing of you making all of the glorious AtS moments come rushing back isn't it?
This series (yours and buffy) is so good. You'll have to write a few books.
Cordelia's relationship with Wesley (shown here), is mostly portrayed as her being on the rebound from Xander.
I remember watching this season as a teen and being completely invested in Faith's character arc. It's weird watching it now because I see how little screen time Faith actually got. I was (and still am) invested in all the main characters in the Buffyverse, but Faith was the one I loved even more when she turned 'bad'. And goddamnit, I've finally understood why after watching this. I never caught the lesbian subtext back then but now you've laid it out it's very clear. In the way I loved Angel because Buffy loved Angel, I felt drawn to Faith the way Buffy was. I'm a straight woman by the way, but it's now clear to me that my emotional investment in her character came from a combination of a girl crush on Faith (wanting to unlock within myself that free, wild side she had) along with the fact that even Buffy was drawn to her (which of course usually makes supporting characters more desirable to the viewers). I love these reviews, they're so interesting. Twenty-odd years later and I'm picking up new things from the show.
Yay! The Buffy & Faith lesbian subtext :D I remember hearing that Buffy had a gay moment in the comics and I was so disappointed that it wasn't with Faith. It felt like a missed opportunity! although I do like a bit of unrequited love so either way I guess I'm happy lol.
A gay 'moment'? She has a full on lesbian relationship. I watched an interview with SMG after the issue was published and they brought it up, and she was so surprised.
+Pokerface oh I thought it was just a one night stand, which is what I meant by gay moment. I never realised it was a full on relationship! If it was, then it just makes me wish that the girl Buffy was with had been Faith even more lol.
+SashaRicky It was, actually, just a one night stand. There was a certain attraction but the other girl, Satsu, clearly felt more than just attraction for Buffy. Ultimately, Buffy ended things because she didn't quite feel that way about Satsu despite the mix of mutual attraction and respect that led to her first sexual experience with another female.
+Pokerface It was a night of passion and a good-bye.
+Ritchie Aw I feel a bit bad for Satsu now but it's lovely to hear Buffy handled the situation with honesty and respect for Satsu. :)
Can we normalize "Bisexual subtext" in stead of "gay" or "lesbian" subtext? Especially with characters who exhibit attraction to multiple genders? And yes, this is also a beef I have with the show for stating in later seasons that Willow is lesbian. Did all y'all forget about Xander and Oz?
Keeping Willow gay was definitely a political choice that Whedon made. He said in an interview decades later that he would have made her bi in current times, but thought that people back then were not ready for it.. it would have made more sense and not feel so forced in season 7
I hadn't really given any thought to a lesbian subtext, which is pretty funny seeing they are both my celebrity crushes growing up... still are haha.
I'd always seen them as opposites, and naturally opposites attract but I didn't think of it as anything truly sexual.You often say Faith is the shadow Buffy. But in the same way Buffy is the light Faith. They both see a different version of themself in each other, and like the saying the grass is always greener on the other side, they're attracted to the idea of a different path they could have been on and share a unique connection that no one else can relate to.
This is definitely something I'm gonna take some time to focus on when I get around to re-watching again.
I'm considering going through each episode fortnight by fortnight following watching these reviews. I don't know if that's gonna be a buzz kill for me because watching this directly before hand will make it to clear in my head, but it would allow me to analyse all that you say. Alternatively I could watch each episode before I watch the review...hmm, what to do?
Regardless, keep up the good work POTN, Quality video as usual.
Moral development mmm.. those are the words for the season and all characters. I never looked at Faffy with lesbian subtext though, Faith to me is just a person who is tempting but doesn't care particularly who crosses her path. She's the image that Buffy feels attracted to but only because she's _danger_ and sexual. If anyone had feelings it was Buffy but for the thrill, not for Faith per se, and Faith finally had someone to party with. Don't get me wrong I'm all for lesbian subtext but I agree with Whedon this time. But I agree with Faith being too much on the background hence me not caring so much about her motives.
Oh, the undercurrents are there. Where is my beautiful new ship? 🤣
In talking about Miss Post here and before you missed an important point that I believe colored her views on people in general. In her first episode, we learn Faith's mother was an abusive alcoholic, and she might have not even known who her father was. Then, being treated the way she was by another maternal figure reinforced her perspective. Yes, Faith probably was attracted to women, but I doubt any actual relationships would have been better.
This is mere speculation, as I don't know if/how their relationship progressed, but I bet she would have had a much better one with Robin, a better man then the ones she chose before, as she was a better person, herself.
Thank you !!!!!!!!!!
I can buy that Faith might be attracted to Buffy, but not the other way around. They might have been in some kind of weird "relationship," but I don't think it was in any way sexual. I've had a few friends that I got extremely close to for an extended period of time (both girls and guys), almost to the point of being in a relationship, but it was never sexual. I think that's all this "subtext" was alluding to: a very strong, almost subconscious connection between the two slayers.