Go for the head - injuries from the medieval battle of Towton (1461)
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- To get a better understanding of historical martial arts it's always interesting to look at the evidence from particular battlefields. While war is a regrettable human folly that has caused much harm and tragedy, it is a part of our history, and mass graves can tell us a lot about the life and death of people back then.
This battle occurred during the Wars of the Roses and it's often called Britain's bloodiest battle, with an estimated 28,000 casualties. There is a tendency towards head and arm injuries, whereas evidence for hits on the chest and back is rare, most likely because of the torso being well armored.
Cuts and chops to the skull were apparently very common, more so than blunt weapons. And many crania had multiple injuries, which goes to show the importance of targeting the head to ensure elimination of the threat.
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Not sure you're gonna read this, but glad to see you did a video about Towton. I got that book, and a couple more focused on that particular battle. There's an explanation about why so many injuries were found on the head. Also whose heads were the ones injured.
To sum it up as much as I can, both parties agreed to "end it there", so no quarter was going to be given. Then, despite the Lancastrians having more manpower, at a particular moment the Yorkists received a small amount of reinforcements that flanked the Lancastrians, causing a massive flight.
At that point, most soldiers dropped their helmets to breath better in order to have a chance, which they did not. Most casualties, as a matter of fact, didn't occur during the battle but actually after the brutal pursuit performed by the Yorkists, where even those who surrendered were killed with such an amount of hatred that you can find skulls with so many cuts you can only imagine the fury unleashed by the victors.
There's a lot more to say about this extremely interesting battle, but as a bottom line, during the battle maces and daggers were the mostly used weapons during the melee part. It was a chilling psalm sunday and most soldiers were wearing armor (gambesons) so thick swords just couldn't go through. It began with an exchange of arrows (estimated 120,000 in the air per minute) and then a Lancastrian charge (wind was blowing against them and thus their arrows were falling short, to the point were the Yorkists, after running out of their own, began picking them up and using them against their owners) that generated a really tight close-in (another reason of why the use of the above mentioned weapons) that lasted until the previously mentioned reinforcements arrived.
Anyways... if someone reads this, hope you find it interesting. There're dozens of bits I had to leave out in order to not to write a book and even then this msg ended up being extremely long for the usual ADD internet user. W/e haha... have a nice day!
Really appreciate the info sir!
My pleasure, fine gent, thanks for reading it! May you have a great day!
yeah that was definitely very interesting. I shudder at the thought of taking such wound myself, these people must have been incredibly motivated
Hans Von Mannschaft incredibly interesting comment mate. Cheers from Girona
i live near towton, the field is still un developed,and commemorated each year with walks, and re-enactments, your version was accurate, to a point.if ever in yorkshire look contact me,maybe we can walk towtons field together?, you have studied the wars of the roses?
I can actually imagine a lot of those wounds also are from being trampled on the battlefield or even execution, like, you knock a guy out, but just to be sure you stab him in the face.
Well, if you fight in such kind of battle you don't have the time to end your enemie's life once and for all. You let him lie right there There will be soldiers and horses walking over him, so he will surely die.
1:29 it would have had to been near the time of death. Not an hour after when the winning side kills those who lay wounded and immobile.
wow thomi, never though i would find you here.
That Would Be Rude.
Hey ur supposed to be covering spawn peeking right?
From the Towton burials, a couple of skull photos caught my attention.
One had a sword slash across the face but what killed the man was another sword stroke across the back of the head, another skull had a neat hole through the side of the skull indicating a warhammer spike through the side of the skull.
+Blood Raven I noticed that a lot of the puncturing wounds in a skull were on the back of the head. This i think would also indicate a warhammer spike to the head most likely as a "Coup-de-grace" after the enemy goes down for some reason.To add to this at 4:18 on the video there is that picture from the book. On the right side are the blunt force injuries. It seems tha lot of hits were again to the back of the head.
Tommi Turmiola a brutal way to die
+Tommi Turmiola Even if you are wearing a helmet, a warhammer could still easily concuss and possible the shock of the impact would be enough to kill
Blood Raven
I agree. Note how the injuries were located. There were lot of blunt injuries on the left side of the skull. This is where the hits will land if the opponent is right handed. This should be enough to put you on your knees. Then comes the coup-de-grace to the back of the head.
Tommi Turmiola It's all about putting down your opponent in the fastest and most efficient manner because your opponent will have the same idea in mind, kill or be killed
All you are missing is a rocking chair right next to a fireplace to go with your book. Then you can name these videos to ''Tales of blood and gore' by nana Skalla . A wonderful kids show
Violence! Yay!
NoHomeLike 192.168.8.1 heh, fairy tales are full of violence anyways :D
Tauric94 Those darned Grimm Brothers
+NoHomeLike 192.168.8.1 Grrrriimm! Theeey're Grrrrimm!
Complete with gentle harpsichord
''Padded Jacks'' I see what you did there ;) 02:56
Mastur Ch33f
Padded, not patted. :)
Mass Effect in Scallcave?
***** dont forget blunt force tramma its a killer even with armor good armor 50% or 45% cheep/lether armor 75% to 90% lether your 100% dead by BFT or a happer or poll axe in the head
TheZero Dav
"tramma"
"cheep"
"lether"
"poll"
Dude, what.
thank you for the spell check god bless
Jesus, the things that people did to each other...well..do to each other.
+KraljevicPavle Ok, i'll admit, i giggled a bit. But you and i clearly have different opinions on what "fun" is.
KraljevicPavle that's how american soldiers knock on terrorist's doors. the kind of knocking that rips the oxygen out of caves....and melts their lungs....
War is price of manhood. Let us become White Nationalists and only butcher our racial enemies
If you want to know what humans are willing to do to each other, study the Rwandan Genocide. A huge number of people were killed by machete... by their neighbors.
Shut up soyboy.
I`m sure this has been said but I haven`t seen it so.
Were some of those blunt injuries from pommels being thrown? :P
No, only the sharp ones
+Pytaigon Sokon I'm quite sure the pommels caused puncture wounds.
+Pytaigon Sokon I'm quite sure the pommels caused puncture wounds.
Hard to say. Such an attack would shatter the skull in much the way a War Hammer would. It can be presumed that many unfortunate souls were "Ended Rightly" in that battle.
+Monthrax there would be nothing left after such a devastating righteous blow
Good video. But from my research, most of the mortal head wounds were inflicted once the knight or man at arms was grounded. It was common to then flip up the visor or kick your foe's helmet off and "end" him with a good rondel dagger thrust or a downward strike with the old pole axe. Of course sword strikes and hammer blows could be carried out in the same manner. This explains the frequency of death blows against the head. Like modern martial arts, I imagine grappling was a huge part of hand to hand combat in those days, with an aim at grounding your opponent.
I handled some of these bones and it is amazing how so many had previous injuries that had healed. A lot of soldiers were first disabled by leg wounds in battle then killed.
Lindybeige uploaded a video recently showing damage on bones from medieval massacres. It's really nasty stuff especially if you consider that the people were probably still alive after they took the blows.
The medieval dead episode two covers that massacre in more detail. Can be found on youtube as medieval dead 02
It really sunk in when I saw the picture of the skull here, with that one cut across almost the entire lower face! Nasty stuff.
***** I think he was referring to the fact that several of the bodies seemed to have been in pretty bad condition even before the battle where they died (or received their fatal wounds). One guy had his knee fused together a 90 degree angle, and another had a huge dent in their skull which they had probably received in childhood.
I'd like to say that the War of the Roses game taught me anything about how it was back then, but tbh, I was just being a dick and executing any enemy unlucky enough to be downed, even if I end up dying afterwards.
Soaphist Medieval Massacre* The one in Sweden. Not multiple.
how many pommel wounds?
just enough to end then rightly! (lol that is kinda like throwing a rock, won't knock them out but still pretty damn funny)
Exactly! 15 century, lots of different steel protection and still over 65% of cutting injuries. Interesting....
there is a documentary still available on RUclips, that concludes that the 39 soldiers in the mass grave didn't die in battle but we're executed before or after the battle. it is possible that they were a scouting party that got captured or were taken prisoner after the battle.
most of the evidence for execution is the high number of wounds to the hands in particular the inside of the hands I.E unarmed people trying desperately to stop an attack also the angle of a lot of the attacks is cutting down as if they were stood above kneeling prisoners.
I think Towton might be an anomaly in that it was more of an uninterrupted, toe-to-toe slaughter than most battles (again, the landsknechts and Swiss were brave - or pigheaded - enough to be another exception). My understanding of ancient Greek formation warfare is that the actually melee wasn't nearly as bloody as what happened once one of the two armies broke formation and disintegrated. Towton's melee just went on and on.
Anekantavad The general concensus is that the battle went on for about 10hrs in total. The troops under the Duke of Norfolk, who had arrived late and attacked the left wing of the Lancastrian army, causing it to rout, were fresh and were mostly responsible for the slaughter of the fleeing Lancastrian troops. Both sides had given the order that no quarter was to be given, so anyone wearing the colours of the Lancastrian army were cut down with some savagery. By the time of this battle, ( the war had been raging for 6yrs at this point) there were a lot of grudges being held by both sides and so any victorious army took revenge on the survivors of the defeated one, particularly the nobility who would have normally been ransomed.
Anekantavad
Yes, it's rather unusual. Most casualties in ancient warfare apparently happened due to attrition, mainly disease.
J Corbett Six hours. How does the human body keep that up, let alone the mind and emotions? Even given that the duration of one soldier's experience in the killing zone might be a lot less than that, a six-hour melee with hand weapons seems incredible - and certainly it must have been out of the ordinary. One would assume that, normally, there would be an initial engagement, some slogging and slicing, then a breakthrough somewhere and either a decisive rout or a retreat-and-regroup would take place, followed by another melee. My knowledge of Towton is that it didn't let up, and that exhaustion was particularly apparent. I suppose, as you say, serious hatreds can help overcome exhaustion, since one *really* wants to kill the other guy.
There was a case in more modern times of the Spanish Foreign Legion fighting the French version, and the two sides nearly wiping each other out in a few hours of maniacal fighting. Each side wanted to prove it was the bravest, craziest, and most reckless. Again, the Swiss and the landsknechte come to mind. Just hammer away until one side simply collapses.
Anekantavad
Another idea might be the "importance" of battle (as perceived by the participants) - small skirmishes and even larger battles of lesser importance might have ended quicker, due to the lack of the will to fight (and being determined by who "gave up" first).
Large battles, where combatants were convinced they are fighting for something big, could obviously turn longer and more vicious. Battle of Grunwald is another example of a very big, very long battle (also ~10 hours) - and it was "to be or not to be" kind of a deal.
zenek bembenek As J Corbett says, if both sides are at "no quarter" mode, there is a reason. Do or die is quite a motivator, and I think giving such an order would be a deliberate means of "stimulating" one's own soldier. If *you* had been ordered to give no quarter, there's a good chance that your enemy knew that. In the Mercenary War between Carthage and its mercenary army in antiquity, a "war without heralds" (ie no mutually-accepted rules) was deliberately provoked to demoralize the Carthaginians - and to stoke the Mercenary army to a savage pitch. Predictably, that too was a horrible, bloody war - and full of atrocities. A contrast could be the mercenary "wars" fought by the condotierre (sp?) in Renaissance Italy. Set-piece, near-choreographed battles with lots of chivalry. Comparatively easygoing, because neither side had anything personal invested in the outcome, other than loot or pay. I don't think civil wars are ever fought that way.
:-)
i didn't know they had sharp pommels back then
12345DJay they where made to do more damage when thrown
Hey Skall. I was taught Battlefield Archaeology by Tim Sutherland, the director of the Towton Battlefield Archaeology Survey Project. Whilst I cannot recall all the details of it now so as to be able to have informed debate it is still of interest to me (and I have a fair number of books which I need to find now).
As far as numbers and numbers of dead, Sutherland puts forward here www.towton.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/killing-time_tim_sutherland.pdf that the numbers might be greatly exaggerated or misconstrued for a variety of reasons and the scale of the battle - whilst still large - was not as large as it has been interpreted previously.
I'd also recommend Tim's chapters in Blood Red Roses and his writing with Richardson ‘Arrows point to mass graves: Finding the dead from the Battle of Towton, 1461 AD’ in Fields of Conflict by Scott, Babits and Haecker
The helmets being discarded has been interpreted by some to have been discarded in flight not necessarily for weight, but when running full pelt a helmet is cumbersome and makes the wearer get hot significantly quicker. The theory is that during flight anything that made running harder would have been ditched. Some individuals from Towton can be analysed almost on a cut-by-cut basis and some evidence (if memory serves) suggests that the cuts come from multiple attackers.
Indeed I believe one individual is reported to appear to have been struck down by a lateral cut to the back of the head, subsequent combatants deliver more blows later either through being rolled or the force of a blow the individual if flipped over and the final blow is suggested to have been one that bisects the face. It is then suggested that these sort of wounds caused by multiple assailants and primarily to the back of an unarmoured head would be most likely to occur during a rout where a force of men on foot were caught by those in pursuit.
Someone asked about if individuals were wounded and either fought on, were left behind or were carried off the battlefield. Certainly medical aid of some kind seems to have been rendered. i50.tinypic.com/2pquflk.jpg this wound would have required medical aid and extended attention whilst it healed, it is not an easy wound to tend to even with modern care.
TL:DR Towton is really interesting, good to see so many others looking into it and learning more about it. Apologies for any facts I got wrong and to Tim if I've misremembered or misquoted everything he taught me.
Wouldnt mind more videos about injuries from archaeological finds
Is that a Kentucky Fried Dog? 😅
Yes please
Stuff like this is why I got into archaeology for a living ❤
ugh that made me cringe when he mentioned cutting the inside of the thigh. im in the fetal position with a pillow between my legs now
+James Porter couldnt make a fist after hearing that
I agree, that made me feel really weird all over the place.
That pillow is no gambeson. ;-p
From what I understand the burial pit was discovered in an area of the battlefield that would indicate that they were caught in the rout at the end of the battle. They were almost definitely Lancastrian soldiers, and may have discarded their equipment in their haste to escape. Cuts around the ears on some of the skulls indicate that they were mutilated. They are testimony to the ferocious fighting and lingering score settling that went on that day..
"Sometimes british place names have very strange, arbitrary pronounciation that doesn't match the spelling"
That's one entire language that couldn't care less about pronounciation.
OrlovKruskayev Fair enough.
It does care...don’t insult my intelligence, I’m British myself...That’s because it’s founded on many OTHER languages old and new....from the Romans to the French...
@@alexwilliamson1486
Does your explanation account for the accepted pronunciation of Worcestershire (wooster-sher)?
HERE'S A GOOD ONE FROM MY LOCAL COGENHOE PRONOUNCED COOK-NO
You should see them speak foreign languages. 🤭
Actually, Game of Thrones is quite similar to the Wars of the Roses. York - Stark. Lancaster - Lannister. The Wall is Hadrian's Wall and the Land of Always Winter is Scotland.
+Conveniently Placed Goat Are you saying that if I put on a kilt and start eating haggis, I can become an Other??
Aye mi'laddy
+Conveniently Placed Goat George R.R Martin admitted that the majority of his stories were inspired by history in general, mostly including the War of the Roses inspiration for his main Houses at the beginning of 'A Game Of Thrones'.
+Conveniently Placed Goat G.R.R.M even said he visited Hadrian's wall in the early 80's and that it stuck with him. Not sure if he thought up cool stories while standing upon it, or if it was many years later. But I have seen him say this in an interview that he was there and its mostly responsible for THE WALL in GOT
+Conveniently Placed Goat yeah there are many things in GoT based on events that took Place in Scotland. the red wedding for example.
I would love to see the topic of injured soldiers being discussed, whether they would just fight to the death (which seems stupid) or get carried off the battlefield when significantly wounded, and how that effects the armies. And the same for when a soldier is completely exhausted, would he be forced forward to his inevitable death by his fellow warriors or would the fresh men swap ranks with the exhausted ones? You could say it might be wise to try and wound the enemy instead of killing them so they have to be dragged off and tended to instead of being dead and forgotten about.
vShoTzZ25 Well, that is a very modern concept I would think. I don't think in melees you would have the chance to stop fighting to try and pull your buddy out, because if you drop your weapon and shield and start dragging him away, you'll just get cut, stabbed, or bashed. It isn't like modern combat where if your buddy gets shot you can try to pull him into cover from enemy fire. You are within stabbing distance of a dude wanting to stab you and would be very exposed in trying to save your buddy. Finding the wounded and trying to take care of them was probably left to after the battle or during breaks in the fighting. I don't know about tired fighters, but I guess you could have them peel back and have someone else take their place in the line.
The romans had a system for keeping part of the army fighting while the rest rested behind them and then switching.
Probably other historical armies had similar strategies. Fresh soldiers are much more effective than exhausted ones after all.
Brandon Cowan Not to mention the shear weight of trying to "pull" or drag him. He would probably be wearing some kind of protection (hopefully) which would probably add to his weight. + the extra weight added from your own protection (hopefully), I just don't see it being practical either.
I do have a question for you, hopefully you can shed some light on. In movies you always see after battles the victorious side going through all of the bodies and stabbing them. Did they really do this?
I ask because I was watching a documentary on the battle of Agincourt, and it seems as in the time of knights they would ransom rather then doing this mass killings. However was this only a luxury then for the knights since of nobility?
Tau Ceti Exactly. Anit-personel landmines are meant to take out the legs, then at least two other people need to drag their comrade away with any sort of speed.
Well, I would assume that they wold finish off the wounded men, most of which would not live even with their limited medical help they could get. I do think they would take prisoners where they could though. I mean, that is sort of ingrained in Western culture to the point were it really freaked the Japanese out in WW2, and vice versa we were freaked out by the Japanese killing themselves instead of surrendering.
Brandon Cowan the limited medical help used antiseptics which reduced the probability of an infection a lot. And if you get an tetanus infection, untreated the mortality rate ranges from 50% to 70% . And not every dirty wound gets infected, even when unthreated. It is not plausible that most of the non leathal wounded back then would die anyway. That are modern period myths to bash the "antiquated" middle ages. Because humanity have to be clearly advanced compared to prior times in every aspect.
Great video Skall! Very informative.
Personally, in one of Mike Loades videos in his series "Weapons that made Britain", in the episode about armour, he tackles those same pictures you showed us about a sword cleaving through an arming cap with nose guard.
He put some of his swords to the test, and after the tests the helmet was unsathed by all the punishment.
He used a falchion, a gladius, an arming sword and a long sword.
IIRC, the Long sword and the falchion kind of dented the helmet, but it was clear, at least to me, that it was not possible to cleave through it with a singular blow.
IMHO, I think that your idea of "medieval hollywood" is correct. Anyways, loving your videos, thanks for uploading this!
Wow these fights mustve been brutal. Cant imagine what the battlefield looked like.
al zolez I want a good realistic movie
Slippery with all the blood.
Lots of moaning, lots of blood an lots of suffering. The not-quite-dead must have suffered horribly, thirsty and in pain.
There's a small river downslope from the main battlefield, and the book mentions accounts of the river running red with blood. So yeah, a lot of blood, gore, and screaming.
Remember that the Towton grave pit is well to the rear of the battle site and probably represents troops running away (routing). Having tried to run wearing a visored sallet myself I am inclined to believe that the routing troops threw off any heavy helmets to ease their escape. So the number of head injuries could be due to no helmets at the time they were caught.
Barry
If Jack was involved the amount of casualties isn't a surprise :D
over the last few days I have been watching a lot of your videos, and may I say thank you for being so educational and entertaining.
+Skallagrim At 0:34 you said Lannister instead of Lancaster, and the funny thing is, George RR Martin actually partially based the books off of the Wars of the Roses (and a bunch of other stuff). House Lancaster = House Lannister, and House York = House Stark. This isn't some crazy theory either, George RR Martin has said so in numerous interviews.
It's actually really cool, through looking at these statistics and reading up on historical military battles or duels and the extent of the injuries it is possible to determine what kind of fighting styles they had. It is almost like the telling of a story by looking at skeletal remains from that time.
Very efficient soldiers. They aimed for the hands/feet and when unarmed or incapacitated, finished with the head. The "remove the snake's fangs" tactic.
When you start to think about it, it's pretty safe to assume humans fought each other plenty before the middle ages, and humans are generally perceptive enough to notice the results of different actions. I'd imagine some early homo-sapiens figured out some of this fighting neanderthals (I know they interbred as well just bear with the example).
Battle of Visby. the dead weren't even stripped just thrown into pits. the vast majority had their legs hacked about then their heads done in to finish them. Grisly business indeed
Ryleigh S yep is there is one thing that humans are efficient at, it’s killing eachother
@@mrpirate3470 Indeed, at Battle of Visby, those poor militia-men never had chance... the professional soldiers just hacked away that their unarmored feet as you said and then finished them off. Brutal but effective.
I've always been fascinated by the Wars of the Roses and the Battle of Towton, or The Bloody Field. Thanks for an awesome vid!
Without reading the book, I can't be certain, but I suspect that a lot of the guys with fatal head wounds did have helmets, but their killers probably removed them before striking that fatal blow.
I have to wonder, too, how many of those finished off were finished by their own side, to spare them from a slower, more painful death from other wounds?
@Beren c Contemporary pictorial, written, and partly archaeological sources contradict your claim! I had never heard that in the late Middle Ages only the nobles wore helmets... Never! From no one! Can you show a source to prove this?
The sallet and kettle hat type of helmets were very popular among common soldiers in this period, as evidenced by a lot of contemporary sources. However, the obvious and fact is that not everyone wore a helmet, but many do.!
It is important to keep in mind that we are already in the late Middle Ages, in fact, at the end of it. Helmets and armors are no longer as expensive and inaccessible in this age as in earlier periods of the Middle Ages, e.g. in the early Middle Ages.
The late medieval armies were already more professional, especially from the middle of the 15th century. This nonsense that the common soldiers were created by unarmed peasants with clubs or scythes, which you also claim, would be absolutely contradicted by contemporary sources, archeology and modern investigations.
Head injuries on the dead in the Battle of Towton are common because some of them were executed (and the helmet was removed from them beforehand) and some were killed while fleeing, when many of them probably dropped their helmets.
And it’s possible that some of them weren’t really wearing helmets.
Contemporary representations
:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Battle_of_crecy_froissart.jpg/1200px-Battle_of_crecy_froissart.jpg
i2.wp.com/schoolshistory.org.uk/topics/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/late_medieval_battle.jpg?ssl=1
Modern:
i.pinimg.com/originals/02/55/e7/0255e7392a77c35a11fed6e6b971ed8b.jpg
qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-68776db8f4fd78933390ba9676039d9d
@Beren c Yes, in this battle, in the dead in this mass grave! The dead of other battles died under different circumstances and suffered other injuries. You cannot infer a single battle from a single mass grave for every battle! It is not claimed by this video, nor by anyone, that the soldiers of the age did not wear helmets. The scientific studies concluded that:
Head injuries on the dead in the Battle of Towton are common because some of them were executed (and the helmet was removed from them beforehand) and some were killed while fleeing, when many of them probably dropped their helmets.
Of course, it’s possible that some of them weren’t really wearing helmets. Like I said, we don’t claim that everyone wore a helmet, nor do all soldiers wear helmets in contemporary depictions, but many do.
@Beren c Once again: Can you show evidence that in the late Middle Ages, no common soldier wore a helmet anywhere, in any battle, or in a siege? And only the nobles wore it? Can you show it or not? If what you claim is true that common soldiers did not wear helmets in the late Middle Ages, then all contemporary pictorial, written and archeological sources are wrong, every scholar and historian is wrong, and every reenactor is wrong.
..
@Beren c General... Okay. So what’s your explanation for the fact that many common soldiers wear helmets on a lot of contemporary depictions? Once again, for the last time: contemporary pictorial, written representations clearly show that in the late Middle Ages, wearing a helmet was already common among soldiers! Many helmets were found or left that were not purely worn by the nobles.
Like these:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Italian__-Archer%27s_Sallet-__Walters_51466_-_Three_Quarter.jpg
collections.royalarmouries.org/media/emumedia/322/644/large_A4_840.jpg
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/War_Hat_MET_DP-13161-001.jpg/220px-War_Hat_MET_DP-13161-001.jpg
This is also claimed by historians, experts and reenactors... Apparently not all soldiers wore helmets, and militia or levy units actually wore less helmets on average, and some of the helmets they wore had simple designs. But it was common in professional units, mercenaries, elite guards, bodyguards. We can agree that soldiers who did not wear helmets were indeed more vulnerable. This is obvious. But there is no evidence that in the Battle of Towton, the soldiers in the armies did not wear helemts in general, which I have not heard from anyone but only you. Moreover, there is no evidence that the soldiers found in the mass grave wore no helmets at all. Last I ask you: do you have evidence for this or not?
@Beren c What other battles, and what remnants, can you show that suggest that common soldiers did not wear helmets? Where are your sources, your evidence? YOU DO NOT SHOW ANYTHING! In the Battle of Visby, leg injuries were common in many remnants, and in the Battle of Visby, part of the Gotland army was indeed made up of militias and peasants. Archaeological excavations have uncovered a number of body armor worn by militiamen or peasants.
The other thing: what made medieval warfare exceptionally more brutal than ancient, renaissance, modern, or modern?!?! The number of dead and wounded in the Battle of Leipzig (1813) was around 100,000. Wasn't that brutal?
I saw a documentary on this excavation years ago "the Battle of Towton" I think, there was some interesting stuff about the anatomy of the longbowmen. love the channel, and the beard, keep going.
8:30 'Tis but a scratch
I love this kind of videos. Please continue making them. They are very interesting.
'Tis but a scratch... to my frontal lobe.
I could be completely wrong but the axe in the background, is the head on upside down? do we have historical evidence of them being that way?
+ray minazzi
Yes, there were quite a few medieval axes with upswept heads like that.
Okay thanks
+ray minazzi its so you can use its as a spear and an axe at the same time
+ray minazzi Good for slash 'n' stab
+The Danneskjold It needs a new name slash and stab doesn't sound that good, how about stash or slab.
Now I need to have a stash with axes that stashes my opponent.. okay this joke is so bad I think I'll just stone slab it... Here lies a bad joke may it rest in peace.
Just saw a Mass Effect joke.Just paused the video and liked it. Now back to the video.
I know this video is old, but wanted to chime in. You mentioned the high number of injuries to arms and hands. This reminded me of an article in Guns & Ammo magazine way back in the mid-90's. Gun fights often have high numbers of injured hands and arms. A couple of reasons were speculated, one being position. Hands and arms are out front but two was more psychological: threat fixation. Whether guns, swords, or spears, people will often fix their attention to what will cause them harm and subconsciously attack that threat. You give two kids plastic swords and the first thing they do is swing at each others swords. Just a thought.
Hey even after you are fully recovered, continue to make more of these kind of videos (along with the others of course)
Most of the dead in Towton didn’t fall in battle but were massacred after being routed or captured. The stories speak of a long battle but with few losses. The killing began when the Lancastrians just threw their weapons and armor and run for their lives
I am sorry for your injury, but I can already tell this will be a captivating 4 weeks. The diversity that will be added to your channel will be nice.
Andrew Brown
Actually there has always been a lot of diversity on my channel.
***** I think he was just trying to be nice.
WizardyDinosaur forreal 9_9
Awesome video, can´t believe i missed it back in 2015, very informative and since you are a practitioner makes it such more insightful. Thanks!
I always wondered about two things about this general topic.
The first one is what you mentioned - the medieval pictures quite often show helmets with no straps. Some of my mates actually suggested that people back then relied on the helmet's padding to hold it in place. As in - if it was tightly enough "filled", it would not fall off. And data on that? Were there straps (to the helmets, padded caps had them, I know) widespread at all ?
And the second thing is - how many people actually had helmets. The pictures show that many of them, films and books following in their stead. But as you said - licencia poetica might be a factor - monks/scholars drawing those may very well never saw a battle in their life and drew the "perfect" armor they knew from courts/official occasions.
But really, a helmet is relatively easy to damage and really hard to fix, unlike a set of torso armor, be it chain or plate, where it works well enough even with a hole or three and can be fixed (even if visually only, to prevent enemies from going for weak spots) with some string and rags. Cracked helmet is cracked, on the other hand. So maybe they were more uncommon that we think, especially among common soldiers. Thoughts?
You also see often WW1 and WW2 pictures of soldiers not wearing the chin straps at all, i suppose for a question of comfort and practicality. And i wonder if similar practices took place in medieval times.
Well,I'm not an expert, but medieval drawings were...somewhat on the lazy side regarding some details. Like chinstraps.
Also, I have a sallet, that I padded,and when not in battle, I usually undo the strap for comfort. But for battle,I always tighten it, because rapid movements and blows to the head could remove it otherwise.
On the second part.I think helmets were the most crucial piece of armor in the early medieval times. You protected your body with the shield,so no real need for plates there(yet).
Also, a glancing body blow without armor could be dangerous,but a single blow to the head could disorient you long enough to get stabbed,multiple times.
Again,I'm no expert,but this seems logical.
If they had to chose one piece of armour, I expect it would be a helmet. Simple helms would likely of been superfluous and therefore cheap. Monasteries were incredibly common in Britain, and were often situated near, if not in large towns . It is likely that monks/friars would have encountered military personnel on a fairly regular basis, in this sort of urban environment. Interesting question though
Nebelung13 Speaking from experience, old helmet chin straps tend to bite into your skin after a while. Most vets back in the day apparently only strapped them in when they feel their helmet may come off while they're doing something. Also, wearing a cap under the helmet was pretty common place among GIs in WWII, the M1 Steel pot's strap system was adjustable but it wasn't perfect so you needed a hat to snug up the looseness a bit.
Nebelung13 I think it depends on what a helmet is to protect one *from*. The 'Tommy' helmet of WWI was meant to guard a soldier against shell bursts taking place above a trench, and in this, in spite of its awkward look, the British probably had the best helmets (ironic, eh?). No strap required, and if the helmet gets knocked off, it isn't too difficult or disruptive to find it and put it back on before the next shell explodes. But fire from above in a mediaeval context would IMO be limited to sieges. In melee warfare, I assume a strap would be I dispensable.
I would love a video series based on this book. Just some short videos like this about each of those "topics for another video" that you mention here.
My grandad once told me that in WW2 they were tained not to wear the chinstrap of their helmets in situations where the enemy were likely to be up close, (or when standing watch) because it could be used to choke them if they were caught from behind. I bet that was even more true of medieval helmets worn into a close and bloody melee. Mind you, I'd have thought the danger of getting hit in the head would be greater than the danger of being choked.
Wow, nice video man. I loved the quality of the information. Also, is that a new camera?
Lindybeige uploaded a vid on the same topic today. Another coincident in a long list of coincidents....
Bloody hell, you mean 2 people that create videos on the same subject matter overlap? SOUND THE BELL TOWER! LIGHT THE SIGNAL FIRES! TREACHERY IS AFOOT!
Evan.
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!
Evan. Mother of God...
Was about to say the same thing but you beat me to it.
edi coincident i think not
About depths of cuts, I once read a book about the Japanese katana. And in the second world war it was reported that a Japanese officer cut off the barrel of a machine gun with his Katana before being shot.
That "padded Jack" was glorious. ^^
I LOVE this video setup! It's really nice. Some cleanup in the background and it will be perfect!
"Padded Jacks" LMAO Jack from ME2
Armor padded jakes made me literally lol with the picture of jack from ME. love it. great info man. love the channel.
***** Would you mind if I sent you two wooden practice axes?
Just give me weight length, width, and handle thickness specs, and I can make some for you.
Although, Considering the fact I DO NOT have any molding rubbers, You may have to do that part yourself.
Or make the parts, and you can put it together, then customize it as you wish. :)
Haven't made anything recently, so I figure, why not?
(Also a P.O. box)
Remaining Rex
Thanks for the offer. I guess foam padded wooden axes might work. Wood alone would probably still hit too hard in full-contact sparring.
***** I was thinking the same thing.
wood likes to crack and break after a while...
Foam? would just regular "noodle" (you know the kind from the pools) or EVA foam work okay?
Also, was that a "no" "yes" or "Whatever"?
Remaining Rex
It was more of a "hmm". :) I'm just wondering how well a wooden practice axe would work. As far as the foam is concerned I'm thinking more like EVA foam (those puzzle mats that are typically used in martial arts) or close-cell foam (as in sleeping mats for camping).
***** Just accept the offer graciously Skall.
Luke DS
I just don't want him to spend time on something that doesn't end up working, since I don't find it very gracious to let people send me stuff if I don't use it.
really like this type of content from you. thanx
the objectivity and skepticism you have when citing texts for these informational videos is refreshing. Most people would just highlight which ever opinion the author(s) of the text-- thank you for adding your own interpretations and thoughts!
This dude is such a Gaelic warrior. Nice place and get up to go with your channel.
That padded Jack tho xD Mass Effect
I recommend Fatal colours by George Goodwin, it covers the reign of Henry VI and and the causes of the Wars of the Roses and the battle of Towton itself
6:30 I'd believe the sword through helmet before I'd believe the dude getting chopped in half off his horse with mail on.
There's a very good book about the Battle of Towton, called Fatal Colors by George Goodwin. In it he suggests that perhaps the reason for so many severe head wounds was because it was believed that if a face were disfigured beyond recognition the soul would spend eternity in Purgatory. Apparently the mass grave they found in the past several years (sorry, not an expert so I'm not exactly sure when) had only a few buried in the 'correct' way, feet pointing East, head pointing West. The supposition was that there was such hatred built up between these two armies, especially as the Lancastrian army had mostly men from the North, and even Scotland, and they were quite hated and thought of as savages by the fighting men from the South. Book looks quite interesting, nice video.
***** Was there any statistics on knee injuries? XD
Too soon maybe
They covered their knees with their horned helms from arrows and shouted at the enemy if they got close. Also, Lydia is a good human shield
pbsoccer obviously, everyone with a knee injury would become a town guard, so they wouldn't be in a battlefield grave, duh...
I live not to far from Towton, such a small village surrounded by fields, quiet close to the city of York. I have not visited the battle field yet though, I must do that at some point.
Ye' bois, Yorkshire!
This battle resulted in a Yorkist victory due to the fact there was a blizzard blowing in the lancastrians faces, reducing their arrow range as the Yorkists advanced, most of the lancastrian arrows didn't even meet the yorkist lines and ended up in the ground, as the Yorkists marched to where the arrows had landed, picked them up and loosed them back at the lancastrians resulting in a huge amount of casualties on the lancastrian side.
Very interesting stuff, hope to see more on the topic.
So Skall on the off chance you read this have you seen Game of Thrones? If so what is your opinion of it both as a story and in terms of how realistic you think it is(excluding dragons and white walkers and such of course)?
Wish he'd do a video on that.
I believe it's darker than is realistic when compared to the real world medieval era, but to be true, the medieval era was really dark.
But you have to include dragons and the Others and (especially) decades-long seasons and such. Realism is dictated by what the world around you is. In a world as gloomy and threatening as the Known World is, I believe it merits more darkness. I mean, in my book, it's darker than is realistic because it rains, constantly. Constant gloomy weather has a very real effect on human emotions.
So in my opinion, it is quite realistic in the world that it's in. But I'd still like to see a Skallagrim video on it.
cara wrote on an other video that they both read the books and watched a bit of the series
If you only look at the fighting, well, I highly doubt that you can cut someone clean in half with a great sword.
I think some people can look at game of thrones and suspend their disbelief easier due to the different available media associated to it. Martin does draw from reality, but so do all artists. Its just a matter of perception. Even the forgotten realms books can be believed, if you can simply stop disbelieving.
How did they even get that many people organized to fight in those times? I was just thinking about the difficulty of communication over distance at the time and realized how much work must have gone into just gathering enough people for a battle.
"padded Jacks" and you take a photo of an armor clad Jack from Mass Effect? xD
TheJonnyjoh
I photoshopped a padded jacket onto her. :)
***** I know (well at least i couldn't find a similiar image) that's what I found so peculiar about the pic xD (my "wording" in the first post was a bit off ^^)
It's entirely possible to split a conical spangenhelm - it's a series of plates held together by a metal framework into a point. Strike it directly at the top like the picture, and you've got a solid chance of shattering the frame and driving straight down into the skull.
If I ever came over for a drink to your place, I think I'd feel slightly uneasy being surrounded by so many cold weapons. Scariest thing: so many pommels... My god! :D
you'd get ended rightly at least xD
HEMA is a relatively new interest of mine. Looking through various medieval treatises for the first time, I was often surprised at how many of the attacks were generally aimed at the head and hands. There were few hollywood style cuts to the body. Having watched videos on the effectiveness of armour, even padded armour, I now know why. Great vid.
Oh hey, you recorded this before your injuries...unless you took off the hand brace on your left.
Dapperfex
I did take it off. The wrist has gotten better. The knee still sucks.
***** Welp, it's something. Best of luck.
Yet another interesting video. How often do you spar with a blunt weapon? Why?
to illustrate his point about English place names, I live near a village called Cogenhoe, it's pronounced Cook-No, you Americans may not be able to write the date properly, but at least your place names are phonetic ;)
Lol Skallagrim's Canadian. (It's where he currently lives his birthplace is in Northern Europe; I cant remember which country exactly.)
FPS Canada Last time I looked on a map Canada was part of the North American continent. Has that changed?
Caramel Johnson If I want to. ;)
You call me European and I call you American. We both could be more specific if we want to but the first statement still stays correct: Everyone from North or South America is an American. Equally everyone from Europe, be it Norway, Spain or Russia is a European.
If I want to name the "United States of Americans" particularly I would go for U.S. Americans. It’s catchy and precise.
at least I didn't go with "you bloody colonials" ;)
Caramel Johnson Making him a Scandinavian/German living in Canada.
I found this interesting, pleasure to watch!
if I was back in those days it sound too riskym, i would of just invented guns
Fitting profile picture
Gun existed at that time, but in the Battle of Towton, gunpowder weapons were not used because of the wrong weather.
@Lost Envy total speculation here but the left side of the head would be the area most natural area to attack for a right handed person. Pretty grisly stuff.
coll intro , btw skall did u ever use a Bayonet ? i find very strange the fact of have a gun and a spear at the same time , is it very usefull?
if you cant reload fast enough stab´em , should be pretty easy to use.
It's was very useful when the reload of a rifle could take 30 seconds to one minute, for each shot.
Ovan20 I'd love to have seen the disorderly nitwits that would take a full minute to reload a musket... As an English Civil War re-enactor, standard reloading time from shot to shot is about twenty seconds. Our best shot fires, reloads, primes, and fires in eighteen seconds, and this is from a mob of people with only loose training on how to fire ancient weapons.
Regardless of how long it takes to reload, ammunition is finite. If you're assaulting a position, and you run out of ammo, a bayonet gives you an instant fall back weapon. In close quarters, stabbing an opponent is a very effective way to put them down. Bayonets are quite deadly.
In previous years, before the bayonet, the basic formation was pike & shot, mustket men, proteceted by pikemen. The use of the bayonet allowed both roles to be filled by the same soldiers, making formations far more flexible
I have a 91/30 Mosin with a bayonet. It is a 18 inch stiff steel spike. The little bit of messing around with it that I've done I will say it could skewer an unarmored man pretty easily.
In Napolionics everyone used bayonets more or less.
One of the changes we've made to our I.33 sparring is to keep the head well back.
6.48 lmaoo
PhactoryOfPhun still lmaooing
This is very interesting. Great look at this battle by the way. I think there are so many factors in this type of warfare we are unfamiliar with. Mostly that is due to modern times being gun focused warfare. Plus hollywood has kind of muddy the waters in the way we look that this. As I former boxer and MMA fighter I have often contemplated how much lose of stamina had t do with getting killed. You can be in great defensive shape when you have your wind but after 15 or 20 minutes of continues fighting you will lack the ability to put up much of a fight.
A coworker of mine said he knew a guy with a Claymore long sword hit my friend who was wearing a steel helmet. Needless to say my friend got dizzy and said his head hurt from the light tap of the Claymore.
Just think of what it would have been like on a real medieval battlefield!
YORKSHIRE YORKSHIRE YORKSHIRE! Towton, what a beauty! Screw you Lancashiesters!
Yes I’m Yorkshireman and proud. ⚔️
"Padded Jacks"
Her response would probably be
"Hey Skal, Fu-"
And then joker cuts comm cause of course he does
I was under the impression that helmets was more common than torso armour, due to both reduced cost and increased need to protect it. It would be strange to have soldiers with torso protection without a helmet (according to Matt at least).
Seems worth considering the limitations of bone injury evidence, I'm no expert, but I reckon it'll be easier for swords to leave injuries to bones in the arms and heads because there is not much skin / tissue around them, whereas the stomach area has no bones, you'd have to be stabbed right into the pelvis / spine to leave evidence via bones which is probably harder to do.
You're looking at data from corpses, so it's badly biased.
Of course a lot of head wounds penetrated, cause those that didn't were far less likely to kill (or kill instantly in which case the victim would die in a different place), Another reason for fewer mid section trauma is obviously lack of bones there - cut to guts will not show after 500 years, but if the man was stomped by a horse after he died it will add "points" to head trauma.
Still, interesting things to know.
What I was impressed by as the number of puncture wounds and the placement of them I can only assume arrows, crows beaks, and misery chords. Yes once you taken a man to the ground in war you have no choice it's straight for the head because you cannot have them moving around for the next 7 second and yes that timing would be after you cut their throat so even after cutting their juggler you would still have to strike them in the head to ensure that you disrupted any additional movement
I hope you don't mind my putting this link here - it is relavant - take it or leave it as you see fit. www.bradford.ac.uk/research/our-research/research-in-faculties/life-sciences/areas-centres/biological-anthropology-research-centre/projects/towton-mass-grave-project/
I saw a BBC show on a mass grave site - I thought it was Towton, but apparently not - the battle took place in summer and by the time the bodies were being interred, they were so badly decomposed that they were not "scavenged" by the ppl burying them. This was, of course, a huge bonus for the archaeologists as complete sets of weapons and armour were recovered.
Thanks for the videos Skall.
I am skeptical about swords going through helmets, however I think most people don't consider if you are mounted you have the extra momentum from the horse's speed behind your attack and if 2 mounted knights are charging at each other then there's even more force. If the helmets are poorly/quickly made or too thin and mounted combat is involved, I could see that happening...
In the computerized battle simulation it says when the Lancastrians lost and broke away many of them threw off their helmets and gear to lighten their load to get away. after 10 hours of hard fighting they were pretty much exhausted and easily overtaken by Norfolk's relatively fresh men and were cut down which could explain the high % of head and shoulder wounds. They also suffered from arrows while they fled.
Question is his did they treat head injuries back then? Or eye injuries where the eye ball has been destroyed?
I heard of a case where some guy had a sword slash across his face and jaw. Cant remember where. They treated it by pouring hot wax over the wounds to stop the massive bleeding. I think he ended living for years afterward.
Speaking of House Lannister, not sure if you've covered this in another video, but what do you think of the combat in Game of Thrones?
I can imagine quite a few people would agree with me and seen as you (Skall) are out of action for a while, could you do a video on sword/blade sharpening and maintenance. Proper oiling and cleaning etc, mundane I know but it is definitely something that is hard to find out properly. You can read about it but to have someone show it in a video would be helpful.
If you were to make a form of combat designed to attack heavily armored opponents, would it focus largely on breaking the bones of the attacker?
Couldnt one explanation be that a lot of the hits to other parts of the body didnt get through all the muscle and manage to damage the bone, therefore not leaving any marks on the bone? I find it probable that one would first cut the arms and perhaps the torso depending on armor, and once enough damage has been dealt to ensure a safe swing towards the head one would go for that. I agree with it being probable that hitting the head was a way of renering the opponent unconcious, and with that nullify any threath.
Great video! Were are you from?
I wonder what inspired the making of this video. :P (Unless it was recorded earlier because I don't see you wearing the hand brace). Hope its getting better, injuries suck. :(
Imagine how gruesome these battles were ,and the people who had major injuries died after words because of trauma or blood loss including that pain relief drugs were no where near being made
I kinda look at a sword cutting through a helmet like those bullets colliding in the air. Extremely rare but possible
Something Skall mentioned briefly was smashing legs with warhammers and such, and I could see arterial contusion and rupture being a major problem with poor medical practices available at the time. It's always interesting to watch your channel, Skall
Funnily enough, these deadly wounds statistics are of the exact analogy of the target significance I gave in my knife fighting video. :-)
But how many pommels were thrown?