Alice: Madness Returns │FatalAmelia Retrospectives
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- Опубликовано: 23 фев 2021
- It's time to venture back into Wonderland with the sequel to American McGee's Alice: Madness Returns. Alice is insane once again and if you're curious as to what I have to say about that, go ahead and follow me once more down the rabbit hole! (Though fair warning, I completely hate it, so if you already don't like that opinion, save us both a lot of time and skip on over this video, kay?)
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8:48 they planned a boss fight, but thanks to the budget and EA rushing the creators, the boss wasn't implemented
I love this game,not that you are required to feel the same. I can answer a few of your inquiries, from earnest interest. This is a total sequel. Wonderland is repaired in game 1. The Dollmaker has Alice in a doom spiral of breaking again every time she starts to heal. It's like a remission before discovering that fatigue is actually terminal cancer. Some damage won't entirely heal,but the repair process is no longer being consciously thwarted. Alice has chosen consciously to embrace her madness as an inner power. She's now the too cool bi goth pixie girl we all worshipped in college.
(gaol' was the spelling of choice for discerning Britons for much of the 19th and 20th centuries, by the 21st 'jail' had become prominently used and generally considered a replacement
Oh I know, but the history of the spelling doesn't make it any less disgusting to behold. Every time I see it in classic books I also hate it
It's the Australian way to spell it
I enjoy your video but I think madness returns is a readaption of the original story. And alice asylum will be a true sequel.
My sister and I actually really enjoyed this game. We bought it randomly when we were at GameStop a few weeks after it released. But we never actually played the first game so had nothing to compare it to. I would love for them to make an HD remake of the first one so more people can enjoy it.
Alice madness returns what's my first taste of the series, so most of these points don't really count for me, story or mechanic wise, these were my first experience with this series, I really liked this game, I consider it some of my favorite games I played, I really liked the astheatic of this game
A better plot would have been "Alice got a job in an orphanage, the place caught fire, she got the last of the kids out and was then knocked out by someone but came to and managed to escape as the place burned down and now she's in prison while the police investigate whether "a prior lunatic" burned the building down WITH HER BOSS INSIDE (as they haven't inspected the building for remains yet)."
Then you could have Alice going to Wonderland questioning whether she killed her boss or not and torched the place, each of her friends asking her vague, yet suspiciously pointed questions that jar memories from her that she'd never really thought about, but all come together raising red flags that quickly point towards HER EMPLOYER burning the building down for the insurance money.
In a real world cut scene we then see him caught, hauled into the station and admitting that he did it, had actually locked the doors, had no idea how Alice opened it to get the kids out and was going to "come back from an outing to a burned out building with everyone dead" and just pin the blame on a dead Alice to collect it, given her past history with "buildings burning down" and institutions.
Just a vague outline of an idea, but it would explain Alice having a relapse, the inner turmoil of not wanting to confront a traumatic situation even when you know deep down it's not your fault and the big payoff where she's proven innocent and perhaps works for a happy and successful new orphanage afterwards as her "reward", we see her photo on a newspaper proclaiming "Alice Liddel - Local Hero" with a photo of the burning building under it for a dark twist on a positive situation.
Something like that.
I have to admit the dresses were glorious. But the classic blue is still timeless
So, I actually like Madness Returns, but I haven't played it since release so, some of my information may be skewed from back then.
More or less, I agree with you, its a concise review. It is beautiful, I enjoy the twisted reality against the vibrate wonderland and just enough bleed through to make you wonder what's in Alice's head vs whats real. Also a bit you missed is, Reality influences wonderland, all of it. the nurse triggering Alice's PTSD on the rooftops leads to the Vail breaking away then the highlands and factory with its choking smoke, the nautical bar of the mangled mermaid gives way to the underwater city, being imprisoned though breifly reminds of her of the asylum and triggers the Queensland flashbacks, the Lawyer's house influences the mysterious east and the truth shapes the world of the Dollhouse. While Jarring the resurfacing and going back under (while contrived) is done well enough to link the worlds together in a way that makes sense... in game logic.
You might be thrilled to know that the dresses and weapon skins... weren't suppose to be DLC at all. They were suppose to be in game rewards and after completion all dresses were suppose to have ability's so you could wear what you like, the DLC weapons were all suppose to be the last teir of weapons, the dresses cut out and the last teir of weapons for DLC at EA's behest, you pay for a key to unlock stuff already on disc. At the time I was furious considering I pre-ordered Madness returns. I still am, this was before we knew Pre-ordering was really bad and they were still feeling out what was acceptable and what provokes moral outrage.
I do hate the lack of boss battles, I hate the illustrated cut scenes akin to taking photographs of concept art and rigging it to move. From my understanding which is sketchy at this point everything about this game was rushed from the get go. McGee had ideas and had been working on it quietly along with his Oz point and click game but when EA greenlit a sequel to Alice it was on a budget and time constraints (Also I think Dead Space's popularity and a horror renaissance at the time helped cause EA wanted more horror games out to spin franchises out of.) So this game was rushed, it's story cobbled together, things had to be cut at the Nth hour including boss battles and actual in game cutscenes cause things had to be easier, quicker ETC, and to me, the biggest problem with things being cut is wonderland feels.... empty. You said in the first games review it was Linear but you didn't notice, which I agree, with this game it is Linear but in a different way, the spaces are too vast you get an absurd amount of jumping where it takes the realism and urgency away from it, it feels empty. Yeah your in wonderland but its so broken and shattered you jump from platform to platform over vast nothingness. The only two levels that get away with it are the Doll House and Queensland (I heard they spent the most time on queensland to pay respect to the original game) Where yes your platforming but, there is stuff around you, or at least the dark abyss of the dollhouse doesn't remind you that your jumping in vast nothingness.
Also another gripe I have, while you are correct combat feels good (I would have liked more weapons too), the enemies are bad, it's all the same kingdom hearts escaping blob monster with a doll head and parts, all of it, there is no variety, and when there is it's welcomed or grotesque, I love the reanimated card guards (supposedly the reaper is an amalgamation of the card guards slaughtered from the first game). Yeah the first game had the card guards and their difficulty was tied to their suit, they were apart of everything, but there was other enemies to contend with, they were just an extension of the queen like the tenticals that ran through everything. Here its just all dolls, a brief remembering of how good the first game was, then back to corrupted dolls and goop. It would have been better if they slapped doll mask one enemies and had them oozing the corruption, you smack them around, break the mask and they 'free' themselves. You could have still had the same aesthetic and given it meaning and diversity. Oh and the saumuri wasp, I forgot them too, but its still black and white and full of dolls that they kind of blend in with everything else.
Lack of dedicated summon Cheshire button for wisdom.
As for story and sexuality, I kinda disagree with you a touch. Not that its too overt or wrong for the setting, or going to far, it is. However I do think it fits, and kinda fits well with the story and the setting. It's just not told well in game and is clunky and ham fisted. I too prefer the simple happy ending of the first game it was a nice book end and it stood on its own feet. However there is a timeline, Madness returns takes place one year after the end of the first. Also while happy and not-insane, Dr. Bumby weaseled his way into being Alice's out patient care provider, for obvious reasons. While she was in the asylum he had no reason to fear her, she was contained, she was quiet she wasn't a threat to him, his position or his now operation. Upon her release, she is a threat to those things, and no longer being insane, people might listen to her. Even when listening to the trailers or in game, Bumby encourages wonderland, it makes her sound mad, or prone to flights of fancy, most self respecting doctors would be trying to pry it away, get her to grow up and get her head out of the clouds. Bumby is trying to keep her disillusioned, mad, wants her to forget, breaking her is a bonus. The nurse triggers PTSD in Alice starting off this bout of madness, though it has kinda hinted that its happened before, in cycles but never plays out completely, like she is stuck in a loop of power fantasy (the lawyer mentioning that they had the conversation before, the way her nanny acts like she comes often and talks about the same thing.) Even the ending with Londerland looks an awful lot like the vail of tears , she could be heading to Bumby's office after killing him to have her session with him and starting the whole cycle again (not sure but it is a possibility.) The ending also invokes Alice accepting and fusing with wonderland, a halfway perminate escape after committing murder. I think EA demanded a cliffhanger ending for a sequel if it did Dead Space 2 good, and while it did well it didn't do as well as they wanted on the spot.
As for the Sexuality, I kinda agree that it was overdone, and the baby doll enemies from the Dollhouse are... explicit in whats going on, the completed dolls, you have to lower their defenses by staggering them, explode their clothes off, beat on them until you expose the heart and destroy that. Like... there is subtly and there is.... that. The near attempts on Alice are, uncomfortable at best, but I guess from 19th century london there is a half mad girl roaming around barely coharent and the places she visits are, seedy at best, like with the sailors, she is found passed out on the docks near a brothel. They probably assumed she was hooking and someone got rough with her or she had too much. The things Bumby does and the rest of it, yeah, it is a bit much, but sexuality and puberty are part of growing up, and Alice is growing up. But I think that there is subtly in handling it storywise then.... this. Like there is just... very little subtly in the game, its all overt.
But that aside I do like Madness return, you do have to connect the dots tighter because, the game is clunky and rushed but it does fit together and construct a decent story that's not a bad continuation, it looks nice outside of cutscenes, the combat feels good for as minimal as it is (the tea pot canon still feels weak despite how strong it is), I think it is a very very rough gem of its time, I'd honestly like for it to be remastered, re-imagined even, having time and effort put in to smooth out the edge and blend the first and second game seamlessly. Alice Asylum doesn't look too bad for what it is but I just keep, tuning into the live streams for like, five minutes and ducking out.
Loved your review, you deserve more subscribers than what you got! Hope you get more views in the future.
So in almost the year since I've posted this I have done some more digging, the game had a decent development cycle, but crap for budget. EA allowed them $9 million. For...everything, marketing, payment, production, all of it. Which is.... beyond tiny even more so for marketing. So with a budget that small things like boss fights and cutscenes and planned story progression just go right out the window.
Apparently there was going to be more in Landon, and Alice would build confidence in wonderland to 'deal' with problems, The doctor was going to be built up over the course of the game as a good force and an ally of Alice then remembering what happened with him and the source of the fire.
Also The game takes place a year after the first, again something that was going to be fleshed out and got shelved due to budget cuts, the corruption was going to be more subtle and built up over the first arc of the game. So build up, reiterate, reestablish then move into deconstruction then twist. That got the back burner with everything else.
Also alot more weapons were cut, like the fire whip and a magic wand (dunno if it was the iconic ice wand)
I still like madness return and am glad its on steam but the game needed more... everything, time, effort, work, I'd love to see a remaster, or remake of both games, Asylum is suppose to be a prequel to everything so... dunno how Alice Asylum is going to go, I heard McGee bought the rights back but without EA backing it, theres no money in the project so...
I gave this a solid 9/10, but I was able to look past it's flaws and see it for what it could have been if the budget was there
"Drinking is about 50 percent of the game. Get used to her little hiccup sound effect". I feel so seen.
it's a "train of though" ;)
One detail about the artstyle from the first game i really liked was that all of the other humans seemed to be extremely realistic (assuming they all look like Alice's parents), while Alice is the only one who has cartoon-ish features like her big eyes, and Madness returns seems to flip that for the worse. Now everyone is cartoonishly ugly while Alice suddenly looks more beautiful, even in her London form.
Also, i don't like Alice's striped stockings and black hair. I always preferred her look in the first game over this one.
The story just makes me think this game is a remake with a few ironic twists related to the first game rather than a sequel.
So I guess it can be treated the way the XIII fandom treats that remake: “what XIII remake?”
I actually own the artbook for this game (i respect it as a piece of art but as canon ehhhhh) and you're right on the money when you say "it feels like they ran out of time". The team members write pieces about a lot of the levels and models and time constraints are a constant mention. I think if EA gave them more time it wouldn't solve every problem but theres a good bit that could've been worked with and elaborated on. I'm really disappointed the platforming parts using a parasol as a tool in London was cut
It’s a shame about this game as I absolutely loved the visuals! It does clearly miss the mark sadly, but I think I enjoyed it a bit more than you, due to me not playing the first game so I didn’t notice any repeating story beats.
Overall just a missed opportunity mixed with poor implementation and unnecessary tropes and sexism. I hear they’re working on another Alice game, so I guess we’ll see where that goes!
Fantastic video as always Amelia!
I'd almost be fine with making the game a guilty pleasure if not for the way it treats women throughout. But that's kind of all it does... so... yeah... I still have yet to see the movie that's based on this series. Otherlands I believe it was called. Some day I'll track that down and see if it counteracts some of my vitriol for Madness Returns!
Excellent video. Exactly my thoughts through and through.
I don't know why the game had so many parts that looks like there were pieces missing.
Maybe there were some pressure from the higher ups or some shit. The game was published by EA after all.
By the way, Wanna hear something funny? Apparently, American McGee is still trying to develop a third Alice game.
It boggles my mind.
Even sadder than the thought of another game, I'm pretty sure Alice: Asylum was a Kickstarter project! So very, very sad!
@@fatalamelia8178 Yeah, it was. Now it kind of looks like a Patreon project. I've been eyeballing American McGee's RUclips channel for some time. It looks like they've tried to get the third game in the works since the release of Alice: Madness Returns. One thing is for sure though... They won't be published by EA.
He's STILL trying to get Asylum made.
I loved the sequel.
I view it as a re-telling of the first game.
The gameplay is like a less complex version of Devil May Cry.
I love the visuals.
The game is just beautiful.
It deserves a 3rd game.
i’ve never played either game but i’ve watched many videos on both, and your retrospectives of this game plus the original are really refreshing. i can’t wait till Asylum comes out, i’m looking forward to hearing your opinions on it!
Some really good points here.
42:45 how did you miss to mention the best out of all, that one male character model that has a mouth like a dolphin?
12:38 at night, rolling one up and poured a drink. This gonna be goood.
Great analysis, worst offender for me has been, even on the first playthrough the dragging feeling. So much empty platforminng all over the place..... then again, every time i replay the game i still like certain parts, especially going into wonderland. The music was lacking though. What i would like is a remake of the first Alice with current gen graphics and good controls. Anyways thanks for making this and have a great day.
Great review, a lot of my feeling about the both games. I finally play both for trophy hunting and clean up my backlog. I the first game draw me in this world, made fall in love with it in the first level. In Madness returns, I called that brumby was the bad guy in the first second of the game. I know that the fire had something to do with her sister, when they first introduce her. The entire plot is basically told to you in chapter 3, and piss me off. They should not made Alice have sister, And made brumby have nothing to do with the fire. Just make a new reason why her madness returns, anything better would better than what we got
Well this was quite a different kind of review for this game and while I personally do like the game, I understand your feelings as to why you loathe it. What you said towards the end, I know that it might've been hard to come out and admit that being one of the biggest reasons why you don't like the game with how the women characters were treated in the game, I appreciate you sharing those thoughts, I think they are good to have to try to get a different perspective because I won't lie, a lot of the reviews I've seen for this game were done by men and I was always curious to hear what some women thought of it and while men and women do have different experiences in life tied to our sex, it's always good to hear different perspectives, especially when it comes to a game like this one.
Personally I did like the combat in this game and didn't find it troubling at all but that's mostly because I like Hack-N-Slash type combat games and even though this game's combat wasn't as fast-paced and flashy as say the Devil May Cry games for example, Alice still controlled fairly well and I always felt in control with her combat style. I also didn't mind some of the mini game things. I'll agree with you on the bottle ship mini game, that one was painful but I actually didn't mind the Eastern Side Scroller but I think that's because I liked the art style being used lol.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the lack of boss battles. That was something I was always bothered by even back when I first played the game. I could only imagine what kinda boss designs for their respective worlds that we could've fought and sadly we didn't get any, what a shame! Though I feel like the reason they weren't included did come down to budget reasons, I heard that Spicy Horse didn't have a big budget for the game unlike during the first Alice game that was being supported by EA games. Still though, not having bosses in the game really did hurt the experience quite a bit from a gameplay perspective.
As for the tone of the story, again I do get why the contextual misogyny was very off-putting to you, for me I just try to view it as a somewhat exaggeration of how life was like in the late 18th century where unfortunately, sexism was horrible from what I've read about the time and how it was to women. And it made me appreciate Alice's character more since she spoke her mind and didn't let others walk over her. Well barring Dr. Bumby but that was different and he rightfully got what came to him.
Overall, I did enjoy the game despite it's shortcomings, it's one of my favorites but I still really appreciate you sharing your perspective, it was an awesome video 😊
Also since you brought up that you liked the dresses, which one was your most favorite? Mine was the Steamdress but one look at channel and that would probably be obvious LOL.
Thanks for the insightful counter-review, I've gotten less than amicable thoughts on this review because criticism = personal attack in so many people's minds. I do like certain things about this game and I've played it from start to finish at least five times, so it's got something in it that keeps me coming back. Alice controls very smoothly and it is beautiful (at parts lol). I just have to lament that the story surrounding the controls and locations couldn't have been better. Less rapey.
I understand where people are coming from when they say that it's historically accurate, but sex crimes still run rampant to this day, it's not really history if it's still happening. MR is also in the fantasy genre more than I think any other genre (based on its source material), and I personally don't think we should be going to fantasy for historical accuracy. It's why I'll take Lord of the Rings over Game of Thrones any day!
As for my favourite dress, it's the Fleshmaiden. I'm unabashedly a lover of body-horror, so that dress hits the spot! And being able to go unkillable during the big, fire breathing enemies ain't too bad either lol
@@fatalamelia8178 Oh no problem at all! I like to hear different perspectives to games that I like because it allows me to think even more about it. I think it would be interesting to hear from American McGee to explain why he went the direction he did with the sequel though I interpret that he probably did so because the ending of the first game really did tie things up perfectly and like you said, Alice deserved her happy ending so he tried to think of something truly mind scarring to have a reason to have Alice still not fully recovered mentally and thus retcon the story and wrote in Lizzy. It kinda reminds me of Buffy the Vampire Slayer when they annoyingly wrote in Dawn who was her sister all along (Like wut haha). Because Alice was totally fine in the first game, she overcame her demons so the story they told with the sequel would not have been justifiable at all.
And though the tone of the sequel didn't bother me because despite all the stuff happening, I still found Alice an enjoyable character. That said, if American McGee is able to do his third game, I REALLY hope he just goes back to the tone of the first game, let it be more macabre, whimsical, and with a hint of psychological horror. And while they're at it, make a remaster of the first game with better controls! I really want to play it but after giving it a try on the PS3 when it came with the game, I couldn't adjust to it at all but I really want to play it, I've watched full gameplays and the world just looks so bloody cool!
And ah cool pick though i must admit, I'm not the biggest fan of body horror because it really does make me cringe (not in the bad way, just in the "OH GROSS!" way haha), I will admit that the "Fleshmaiden" dress was a super creative looking outfit, easily one of the most unique.
Also since you seem to be okay with older games, if you'd like to try a game wit ha super likeable female lead who's game has next to not much sexual theming (that I remember), I'd highly recommend trying the PS2 game "Primal", I think you'd really like Jen! She's one of my most favorite heroines in gaming :D
Great review. I've never played either of the games in this franchise...cause I'm a giant wuss. I'd love to see you review Disney Villains Revenge and the Fear Effect games. Also, I love Alice's costumes.
I LOVE Villain's Revenge! I mentioned it briefly in my Nightmare Ned video but I should get around to covering it
@@fatalamelia8178 You definitely should.
Great video, I always tought that this game was a little off, it really feels that they didn't had enough budget for somethings, I think there's a kick starter campaign for a third game
The third game has been in limbo for ten years now, going from Kickstarter to Patreon, and honestly, I hope it stays in limbo
I totally get your review of the game even if it hurts me a litte because I do love the second game. But the thing that really grinds my gears with the second game is the fact that it could of been a good or even a great game, but EA treated the team like shit. When you mentioned that it felt rushed and that they ran out of time. That's because they did. But it was due to EA treating it like shit and maybe some poor time management.
when it comes to the story and how it affects the first game, I see the first game focusing on Alices mental health itself and the second game focusing on the fire. Because while the first game gives us the perspective that she is treated it only confronts survivors gulit and not so much the actual fire and the trauma the asylum gave Alice. The second game could be told without the need of sexualization and just made bumbi start the fire due to some other reason. The second game is dissapointing and it's so sad to see a game that had good potential go to waste. Hopefully Alice: Asylum (which hopefully will be made) will give a better ending to Alices story.
Wait there going to be a third game
Yep, Asylum.
McGee has tried Kickstarter to get funding to make and release it because EA won't.
He has some nice work ups done though.
He's on Twitter I believe.
Honestly I kinda distanced myself from stuff American McGee makes because of how he was defending confederate statues saying taking them down will "erase history" back in like 2017 on his Twitter I'm not gonna lie from what I heard about the story of Alice asylum I'm really dreading this "potential" third game
Ok so bit of a update so apparently while I was looking at fanart I fucking found out that American McGee is doing nfts and is acting like a childish condescending prick to anyone who disagrees with him including his own fans and blocks them yeah no I fucking hope his new sequel never fucking sees the light of day I'm so pissed at him holy shit this is a new low I hoped that maybe he would've grew as person from when he was arguing about confederate statues but it's plain to see that he still being a know it all asshole arguing with 17 year old teens
McGee tried to retcon everything which ruined it all. Don't forget the third game which retcon everything once again. Dayum. 😑🔫