All three of my AMF bikes ran great and where very reliable. My 1971 boat tail, 1979 Full dresser and my 1975 XLH. I think most of the negativity comes from people who never even owned a AMF Harley. That being said, Harley has lost its soul a long time ago in terms of tradition. But in fairness, Harley does indeed produce a high quality product with the traditional 45 degree V Twin. Without it, Harley would go under. Even the woke corporate knows this…. I think????
Iv owned most models since early shovel head days. To todays 2023 models. People have always thought they knew better than harley, how to run harley. But theres a reason they lasted 120 yrs CONTINUOUSLY…
greetings from Denmark (Europe) I drive an AMF superglide fxe 1974, I have owned and driven it for 29 years, and over the years it has accumulated many miles. It is bulletproof in quality and has never disappointed me, it is American quality at its best and it always drives absolutely fantastic. And if there's one thing in this world that's absolutely certain, it's that I'll never sell it, I'll keep driving it until I die.
I remember the later AMF years and the quality control issues...but....AMF was did the design work and prototype of the best engine HArley has ever made...the 1340 Evo. Easy to work on and they run about forever with normal maintenance.
A friend of mine in the 70's had an AMF Harley Davidson mini bike. With the huge fat tires on it. That bike was a blast to ride. If Harley would bring back something like that again, perhaps it would get kids off their play stations, out of the house, and onto motorcycles? I also saw a Harley Davidson version of a snowmobile when i was at their training center in Milwaukee. Again, something that possibly could / would get the younger riders interested in the Harley Davidson brand. But from what i have been seeing, Harley Davidson is going after the Cadillac customers. The ones with deep pockets. And usually so old, it'll be their last purchase.
That analogy with Cadillac is good on several levels considering that both companies are saying they are going to full EVs at some point. Also I agree with you on the mini-bikes and snow mobiles. I am in Minnesota now and the motorcycle dealerships sell mostly ATVs and snow mobiles.
I've owned and ridden Harleys before, during and after the AMF years. On one hand, if it wasn't for AMF there probably would not be a Harley Davidson company today. On the down side, the AMF years were some sad times. The shovelhead was the biggest piece of crap the MoCo ever produced. I say that as a prior panhead owner which was not exactly a paragon of reliability. However, AMF is largely responsible for the development of the Evo which was a great motor and the FXR which was a great motorcycle. Certainly the unions share some of the blame for those dark AMF years. I am not a fan of unions and any "union" that sabotages it's own products is not a friend of the company or the workers they represent. These days, very little of what H-D assembles is made in the USA. And the CEO is not an American or even a motorcycle biker. The MoCo knows *NOTHING* about it's core customer and seems to have zero interest in finding out who they are or serving their needs. Bean counters make the decisions there and they will happily severely reduce the quality of the product if it saves five cents on each unit.The twin cam was a pretty decent platform so H-D gets rid of it for the M8 which has been a poorly designed, poor reliability, insanely overpriced piece of crap. The idiots running H-D seem determined to run the company out of business and I have every confidence that they will succeed.
Your wrong about the m8 motors. They are good motors now. Every time Harley releases a new motor they have to work the bugs out of them for the first 3 to 4 years. Remember the cam chain issues when the twin cam came out.the twin cams also had overheating issues. The cranks on the twin cam are piss poor with some going over 12 thousands of runout called slop.
As a sum total of parts the M8 is a great engine. Each new platform all have kinks, but today any evo, twin cam or m8 can go the distance. There was a guy who did 100,000 miles in like 100 days for charity. That's some fucking mileage, not sure what or if l anything major needed work but I'm sure if it did there was no way you'd be able to keep going that far, that fast....
Great early history CJ. I had a 1978 shovelhead. Although it was a blast to ride, it had so many expensive repairs that I sold it in 1991 and bought an '86 FXR Evo and have never wanted to ride anything else since.
AMF paid for the development of the Evo engine, the 5 speed transmission, the new FXR and FLT frame and it's rubbermount system used later on the Dynas. They bought the design and paid for the R+D the Softail chassis. They brought electric start and disc brakes to the entire product line, introduced electronic ignition and updated suspension on everything, increased displacement on both Big Twins and Sportsters, as well as converted them to run on unleaded fuel and meet new emissions on noise standards. Harley never would have survived without them.
My first Harley was a used 1974 1200 Super-Glide FXE (Both kick and electric-start). I loved that bike! Many AMF bikes, from what I understand, were not reliable, but mine was fantastic! My FXE ALWAYS started up by the first or second kick, It NEVER leaked oil (like many Harley's of the time) and it ALWAYS ran great! My only complaint was that the fuel tank was too small (about 3.5 gals W/1 gal. res.). I currently have a 2015 Fat-Bob that I bought new and love the refinements (I still wish I had kept my FXE for friends to ride). There are pros and cons to each. When I was in the Navy and stationed in the Philippines (mid-70s) I had the chance to buy a 59' Pan-head for $1,200! What a missed opportunity! Anyway, I still have my Fat-Bob and love it to pieces! I'd love to have a new Road-Glide, but I don't have $45,000 burning a hole in my pocket, but there's always the lottery! lol To answer your question (Was HD better off under AMF's ownership?) No. Why? Because AMF neglected to invest money into R&D for HD. They were about to dump HD which would have extincted the brand. That's when Willie G. and other investors bought them from AMF. There are many reasons why HD is failing, but primarily because Millenials are not buying them as their parents did! HD's prices have sky rocked beyond the reach of the average Joe/Jane! Willie G. and Co. turned HD around with the New "evolution" engine (Blockhead) which vastly improved the reliability of the engine. My FXE was a simple, but dated "Shovel-head" motor and I absolutely loved that bike, and mine (just speaking for myself) was very reliable! I hope this kind of answers your question. - Cuno
Thank you for sharing your experiences with your Shovel-head! It sounds like it was an awesome bike for you. Too bad you didn't snag the Pan! It seems that the 70's may have been the peak for car and motorcycle culture in the U.S., but hopefully it will continue on in some form.
AMF invested heavily into Harley. Besides a steady progression of new models, realize that a water-cooled twin, four and six were co-developed with Porsche in the late seventies. This new, high performing platform was ultimately never used in actual production, however. Most importantly, the EVO engine was developed during this period as well. AMF did that, not "Willie G. and Co.".
Great video! "History is written by the victors"... I think that is one of the big reasons of "sad AMF years". I would love to see longer video digging deeper into the AMF years. Would be great to hear unbiased inside view.
Coincidental to this video, the Harley pan am demo truck was at my dealer today. They were offering free t shirts for a test ride. I’ve been riding adv bikes for twenty years now (currently tenere 700) and I’ve always wanted to ride one of these new high hp adv bikes. The engine grenaded about 1/2 mile into the ride. I say grenade because it sounded like mike Tyson with a aluminum bat was inside the cases trying to get out, loss of power; all manner of lights; limp mode and then a big bang before it gave up the ghost. They had to trailer it back. But hey, i got the shirt😂
Wow, that is disappointing on several fronts. I have heard that there have been many reliability problems with the Pan Am and Sportster S. I have ridden both and they are fast and fun, I just wouldn't buy one yet.
I had two PA. First one, a 21, went through 2 water pumps and had many electrical glitches that wouldn't allow it to start at random times in 10k miles. So I traded it for a '22 in hopes of better luck. Owned it for 6 months and 1200 miles with continual oil leakage from left side that couldn't be fixed, even after changing the affected parts and seals. So it's gone and my adventure bike days are over unless I jump brands, which is a temptation. Fun bike to ride but no trust in it to go anywhere.
@@johnwoodworth4204 I’ll say that they gave me a different bike to ride after that. My goodness the power! I learned that 150hp, or whatever it dishes out in the default riding mode is too much for me. Would be one heck of a bike if the gremlins were worked out. 😊
Let me explain something, Harley can but will not build a rock solid maintenance free motor. The way Harley operates is they want you to upgrade the bikes with screaming Eagle parts, pay the Harley shop to have them installed, pay them for upgrades and bring it in for regular maintenance. Harley makes it money from parts, service And apparel. You have 2 types of people, those who accept that and own Harley’s and those who don’t usually move on to other brands. Anyone who has been in the Harley game knows how they operate.
That definitely has been their business model. I saw where someone pointed out that the VVT CVOs will no lend themselves to stage upgrades or exhaust modification. If that is true, it will change Harley's revenue stream when VVT engines are introduced throughout their model line up.
I hear the same about the vvt. Maybe no screaming Eagle exhaust mods due to the epa. Thank god for massive passionate 3rd party companies that will overcome these issues. Let’s be real, no one is going to buy these bikes at that price and not be able to change the intake And exhaust. Things will change once these 3rd party companies get ahold of these bikes.
I bought an '09 Roadglide and rode it 10 years bone stock. Then sold it for what I was asking. I didn't play the aftermarket game and still enjoyed my bike as much as anyone. Then I bought another one new. I didn't move on to another brand.
AMF shovel heads were nice motorcycles in 1981. A friend of mine had one and it was pretty nice. I think a motorsports company like Polaris or CanAm would do wonders for Harley Davidson if they were the parent company. The Harley leadership now only cares about the stockholder and will not give two bits about the motorcycle brand. They will run it as long as they can suck money out of it and then leave it to fail after they have all jumped ship.
I think you are right about that being the game plan. The tenure of most executives at big corporations is about 3 to 4 years so they won't be sticking around for the aftermath of their decision making.
What if it where to be owned by a Chinese company or own by CR and shift 100% of their production to China and meets CR standards to match with Yamaha when Harley-Davidson make their motorcycles in China and exports to the USA and meets with equal quality to their Japanese counterparts?
What if Polaris owns and and sells Indian to Toyota and then Indian outsells Harley-Davidson even if Harley-Davidson is owned by Polaris and Indian owned by Toyota and creates to Mega Chief.
Great Video, i was 14 years old and just moved from New England to South Dakota (Adopted Dad was an Air Force Res Chaplin) and i traded my G5-100 Kawasaki for a Harley SX125 and Got a Job as the Lot Boy at Black Hills Harley/Yamaha so my career with HD started in the AMF Era, and Frankly i thought it was a great time for Harley with the Italian Aermacchi bikes like my SX and the Sprint back then Harley Had Entry level bikes, it's when i became hooked on Harley-Davidson. and like you pointed out all the innovation during the AMF years, like the FX, CJ are you aware after the FX in 71 that model became the Experimental model, the FXE 1st Electronic ignition, the FXB (Sturgis) the 1st Belt Drive, the FXR the 1st Rubber Mount, etc etc it was AMF that paid for the R&D for the Evo, the Softail and More, i was still just a kid, but when i graduated HS i bought a 77 FXS lowrider and had that bike till 92 with many many trouble free miles , the bad reputation came from just before AMF sold the Motor Co back to the HD Executives the unions were causing problems thus the worst AMF Harleys 79, and 80. Trivia: AMF started out as a company that made Cigarette Machines, most of their machines could be found in bowling alleys. and AMF invested in Bowling, made good profit and then looked atall sports they owned Voit Balls, Sunfish Sail Boats and More. I worked my way from lot boy to dealer GM, and i retired in 2010 and frankly Harley in my opinion is going the WRONG direction and the German CEO needs to be Fired, and i think maybe we the riders should bring back the Flip the patch. my 2008 Road King will be my last Harley
Thank you Bruce! Your Harley knowledge is vast. It is surprising to me how much hate AMF gets for owning Harley for a time, but I don't think it is at all deserved either. Before AMF HD nearly went bankrupt. After all of the labor issues, AMF HD was in bad shape when Willie G and others got it back for a pretty low price. They then went to the federal government to get protection from Japanese competition. On the patch issue, I am seeing people comment that they are either flipping their patches and/or de-badging their Harleys.
@cycletron in the early 90s the Evo era many of the old school bikers thought harley was turning too much toward the yuppies and RUBs , i joined many and left the dealership for an Easyrider franchise that opened in our old building, but a year later the easyrider store was no different and in some cases we were charging more than the HD dealership, and i was still young and it was a wake up, harley davidson isn't what everyone thinks, its just another business trying to make money. But i kiked the amf years, liked the bikes, in fact if harley today ran a bit more like amf i think the motor company would do well.
I bought a brand new 1971 SX 350 Sprint. Rode that thing from motocross tracks to the LA freeways. Blew 3 transmissions. 2 under warranty. At least they had bikes that a young guy could afford while dreaming about the bigger ones. They should have kept the Buell line, I have a Ulysses that I love. I also have an Ultra Classic and a 97 Road King. I doubt that I will buy a new one now.
AMF was also responsible for the development of the Evo motor. People forget that part when they are complaining about that time. Also, union labor disputes in the 1970's affected most industries; it wasn't just Harley.
The same corporate conglomeration of AMF that saved H-D in 1969 eventually became its enemy. AMF wasn't just bowling alleys. They had many divisions, producing all kinds of consumer and industrial products. AMF invested a lot in H-D, and the H-D division was always a profitable one for them. But many of the other AMF divisions didn't fare so well, and by the late 1970's the company as a whole was in severe dire straits. Managers saw the writing on the wall, and were seeking other career opportunities before the company went belly-up. This was another one of the reasons that H-D quality really suffered in the late 1970's and early 1980's up until the buyback. The Wheel Division of AMF that made bicycles suffered even worse with quality control issues than H-D did. At least the EVO engine was well in the works at the end of the AMF period, and it gave Willie G. and Vaughn Beals something to build on with the company.
Never understood the amf hate. They saved the brand from certain doom and gave the name a chance where many may not have. As for quality control issues, i think it was a common theme for most manufacturers for that era and i dont think amf was worse by any means compared to other companies. As far as im concerned, AMF designed the evo engine, made a new and bettter manufacturing facility and made the company profitable again. Wasn’t poorly managed as much as it was poorly conceived by the public, hostile to change.
HD isn't unique in its journey. Piaggio was almost bankrupt in 2002 when the Colaninno family stepped in taking it private to save it. Roberto Colaninno once said, "A lot of people told me I was crazy. Piaggio wasn't dying. It just needed to be treated better." Colaninno implement Japanese quality techniques and retrained every employee saying, "Everyone in this company is part of the value chain". In 2003 to increase scale and market size, Colaninno bought Aprilia / Moto Guzzi. In 2006, Piaggio when public as a stock company. I believe AMF, as a conglomerate, understood the financing, investment, marketing, and production side of HD but their critical mistake was they didn't "treat the product or employees better" which lead to their quality issues. Overall, I think Zeitz is doing a great job given the hand of cards he was dealt. The company has direction, focus, gaining on financial stability, and turning our high quality and in demand products. He's "treating the company and product better". The only issue I see is scale. Can HD generate enough free flow cash to fund R&D, product development, and production of new models. The new VVT on the CVO's is a good step but HD needs a full water cooled M8, a lighter touring frame, and begin to expand the RevolutionMAX models (Bronx and 975 PA please). Hopefully, with a new CEO and CTO LiveWire will find itself but they need a segment leading product offering and the new Del Mar S2 isn't it. LiveWire needs to think EV mobility and not EV motorcycles. Like Vespa and Piaggio electric scooters are selling like hot cakes in the EU - solving a mobility problem.
Those are great points Gene. The only thing I would add is I think the problem with Harley's EV play is that they are focused on high margin bikes (just like with the rest of their product line). However, as you point out, those type of expensive and big EV motorcycles isn't what people want at this point.
I don't know how many dealerships had closed under AMF, but i sure have seen a number of them close under Harley Davidson. The dealership 2 miles from my shop closed up this week. The announcement came earlier this month. Think they would have had a going out of business sale? Never happened. Their motorcycles got transferred to a mega store......
Yes Harley continues to consolidate their dealership network in favor of the megadealers which is not a good trend at all for customers or prospective customers. Harley's pushing a new build out called FUEL. I don't know the details yet but it's likely to push more people out when they can't afford the capital expenditure.
I bought a brand new AMF XLCH Sportster in '75 and still own it although I fully chopped it in '77. Nothing wrong with that bike except for the front brake rotor coming loose on me once. Nothing a bit of Loc Tite couldn't fix.
Interesting comment on diversification with Polaris as an example....I recall when Harley also made snowmobiles and golf carts....plus there was the AMF era Aermacchi singles for a while, so there is no reason it could not do so again other than shite management.
I think the ideal scenario is that Harley goes tits up and a group of hard core enthusiasts pick up the pieces and build bikes that bring the brand roaring back to life. I won’t be holding my breath.
That sounds great but it requires huge cash investment and that would require a parent corporation like Polaris(American made) to buy it. Indian kept failing because everyone that bought the brand did not have the cash to make it work. It changed hands and changed hands until a parent corporation wanted the name to bring it back and make it innovative and profitable and not just a knockoff Harley. Jay Leno did a video on it. S&S made their company on the back of Harley Davidson making all of the improvements that the stock engines needed.
@@semperfipar1299 Oh yeah it’s easy to say vs going out and actually doing it. Add in the fact that the US Government will make sure it’s more difficult than it needs to be as well. I’ve seen crazier things happen though.
Spot on sir I have 03 softail last year the dealership were i bought my bike told me they can't work on my bike anymore because its older then a 08 So I guess in 20 years they won't work on anything but electric bikes I was a chapter member and a M V P member NOT ANYMORE 😢
Thank you. Yes, it is surprising how many of the dealerships won't work on bikes that are more than 10 years old. I guess they just want to keep selling new ones!
Royal Enfield is the Harley-Davidson of India and they have a vibrant motorcycle culture because they can't afford to buy a car. If they could they be training them in on a car. Despite the problems they had with employee sabotage and a few problems with outside suppliers they did not have the horrible issues that today's Harley have. They also had a range of motorcycles to fit everyone during the AMF years. AMF did not go after independent shops, they also didn't get into useless litigation about the exhaust sounds that they may try to trademark that which got thrown out of court. They also try to sue the Japanese manufacturers for making their bikes look like a pseudo Harley. Look at the major goofs that they have made in 25 years of self-management. They killed the fuel line of sport bikes and beginner bikes, they came out with the twin-cam that was cheaper to build but was loaded with mechanical deficiencies. They tried the experiment with cheap indian-made Honda clone copies at Harley-Davidson prices of course. They never invested in the company the way that AMF invested in Harley. They built the York engine plant to streamline production. AMF spent seven to ten million dollars investing in Harley-Davidson back with a million dollars was a lot of money. AMF design ed the evolution motor which has been Harley's best motor ever in the modern age bar none. AMF never went after the mom-and-pop Harley dealerships the way the new company has been doing. The management of Harley-Davidson has been blood-sucking the company dry. The live wire has been a expensive and financial debacle. When people wish that AMF still ran Harley-Davidson you know something's up. Finally the last thing they messed up with killing the evolution Sportster thinking that people are going to buy a $15,000 piece of crap nightster.
AMF Harleys with quality control issues?? Circa 1979, when I first got interested in HDs in Australia, Harley generously "offered" a 3 month or 3000 km warranty - an accurate testament to their confidence in their own product! I tend to disagree though that diversity of products is necessarily a good thing. For me, Polaris is a prime example of this. I think Indian would be better as a stand alone company, at least from a marketing perspectve. When I owned a 2015 Scout I would CRINGE when Slingshot owners would wave to me as a "Polaris Brother" or whatever they thought. I just felt, still feel, I have nothing in terms of "shared experience" with such three wheeled sports car drivers. Same applies to a Polaris snow mobile owners! All power to them, but we have little in common, for me. I also never emotionally felt that my own Polaris "Indian" shared the DNA of the original Indian bikes. Just me. So for me Polais, as a multi product company, is a real negative. It might be good from the company revenue / share holder perspective , but not, for me, as an owner. I mean put it this way - I personally wondered if my Scout's motor shared technology with, say, snow mobiles. Who cares? some may say - but for me, it took away from the ownership experience. AND the Scout had multiple quality control issues as well - but that's another story!
I can see that perspective, but today Harley is run by a bunch of executives who really aren't bikers. Maybe it is simply up to the customers to preserve the biking culture. I have heard from others about reliability problems with the Scouts. Except for the Rev Max engines, I think that Harleys have been pretty reliable lately.
love it,fascinating docco,,i remember seeing a AMF SUPER GLIDE out the front of a ten pin bowling alley when i was a kid,,i think theyre great,,and wish i had one,,thanks again from australia
The problem is the motor co. can't by itself back now and place the blame on former ownership. They somehow have to be competitive with the Japanese brands in pricing as well as production numbers to be able to attract the necessary buyers that would surely keep the co. viable to its investors. They have to swallow their prestige pride and get cheap while trying to retain the quality that has dramatically improved since the AMF era. All while still being manufactured in the USA! THE feature selling point!! So, as far as production numbers, yes they were better off under AMF. But that's where it ends. I know it's not easy anymore with the whole cost of raw materials, and supply chain, blah, blah. We used to have everything we needed to manufacture just about anything without importing anything. F'n globalization put an end to that and now we're f'd right along with them. Doesn't matter who's running the ship.
I think that eventually all HDs will be made overseas. Globalization has messed over the U.S. but it also looks like globalization is about to unravel. China's demographic problem is going to produce a big drop in their workers and consumers. That same is true in Japan and other countries.
Well, if they plan on overseas manufacturing, say good bye to their core customer base who will boycott the Co. flood the used market. And actually consider buying from a WOKE co. I don't see a happy ending for HDMC or its shareholders. But that's just me.
I bought an AMF XLH Sportster new in 1977. I still have it and still use it and wouldn't part with it and proudly sport the AMF decals on the fuel tank.
@@cycletron Thank you for your reply My bud bought a 1975 AMF XLH Sportster new and also still has it and proudly sports the AMF decals on the tank. Another good friend has just restored a late 70's Superglide and has built it as original as possible including the proper paint colour and AMF tank decals. I did hear of some things go wrong with these bikes back in the day and mine was no different. These were simple to fix and I removed the offending far eastern made parts and replaced them with American made ones. I got these from Ace Armstong's Harley-Davidson dealership in Miami ( no internet in those days) all done over the phone from UK. He was a fantastic guy to deal with but sadly his business was wrecked during the Miami riots back then. Happy New Year 2024!
I bought a new 1976 sportster $2500 out the door ,not a bad bike,only regret is i didn't buy a superglide or dresser,they were only250-300 $ more.piss on china davidson of today
Having riden Hd & living thru all of those years you just described..2 or 3 of your comments were close, with the rest way off factual basis !. Still entertaining..
Great video. Harley loyalists who disparage AMF would be like modern Jeep owners talking smack about AMC. Respect and honor your past for it has given you a future.
I have owned a Honda vehicle since my first car in 1993 and many more since.. Now I have a 2022 Ridgeline sitting in my garage because Honda sold and delivered to me quality and reliable product and have won me over for life. I cant say that about American vehicles because they make shit products now and only care about greed.
I seriously doubt Harley's ability to exist in it's present form as a stand alone publically traded company for much longer. They really need to merge with a larger conglomerate automotive group. Unfortunately there is slim pickings for such a merger with a US company. I have been laughed at before for the suggestion, but if you look at the cultural space that Royal Enfield and Harley both occupy in their native countries I think it might be a good match. Royal Enfield is the Harley Davison of India and India does have a vibrant motorcycle culture. Here in the States such a merger would give dealers both the lower cost, entry level, good value RE bikes and higher end Harleys on the same show room floor. The history and heritage of both makes is highly marketable. The only question is would the conglomerate that owns RE want Harley Davidson?
I think your idea about RE buying HD has a lot of merit. It would give HD the chance to shut down their York plant (which I am sure will happen at some point (perhaps when the next Union contract is up for renewal) and source cheaper overseas production.
So I get an email from HD about a new HD members club??? "H-D Membership is a community platform and membership program that will bring together riders and moto-culture fans under the "United We Ride" banner to connect, engage and ride with one another, according to the company. H-D Membership is intended for riders and fans to enjoy a personalized experience of in-app social features, riding benefits and access to the Harley-Davidson brand. H-D Membership is a new and positive hub for moto-culture - serving as an inspiration to riders and non-riders alike." Membership includes a rewards program with an optional HD Visa card with points. Actually, this sounds like something other motorcycle manufacturers should be doing.
I think it's pretty smart of HD to do these things. Companies need to do more to try and control their narrative on social media as several companies are finding out the hard way right now.
@@cycletron What I'm interested in is how far they will go with this loyalty /rewards program. Like the North Face VIPeak rewards that “turn their passion for adventure into real rewards.” They offer discounts on all kinds of products plus travel packages and services. Will HD tie in the "its not a motorcycle, its a life style" with something like a VIPeak deal? Something like this could set HD apart as more than a motorcycle company.
@@cycletron I received it via my local dealer along with the weekly "stop by and see what's just come in from the factory" notice. You know, when they make me CEO, I'm making a lot of changes - first up my compensation over the Zeitz sweet deal, second, see if Warren Buffet has any extra cash he's not using, and third, get some QC over suppliers. I'm still waiting for the call.
@@geneclarke2205 Sounds like you have the right priorities and are waiting for that call just as I am waiting for my invitation to their next big model launch!
Harley’s are building there best bikes ever and I do hope they stay independent! As for price, Harley is definitely competitive, plus they are a pinnacle brand. Isn’t a Porsche expensive?!
I have a Porsche and the quality and performace is well above what you can get from any Harley. I liked my 2019 S.G.S. but there is just no comparison.
Any CEO for Harley-Davidson thinks that replacing combustible Harley-Davidson engines with electric does not need to be in that position first step is to get rid of that German fuck put someone who rides who knows motorcycles who loves Harley-Davidson you want to keep it the way it is
@@cycletronI have three Harleys for over 30 years I've have a 54 FL stock a stock 78FLH and my last new bike was a 2012 FLHTCI I should be running Harley-Davidson
To say what if Harley-Davidson is sold to Toyota or to a Chinese company? Would Harley-Davidson improves their quality under the ownership of a Chinese company or under the ownership of Toyota? What about if Hyundai owns Harley-Davidson?
Another question would be whether you would prefer Harley to survive if it meant being owned by a company like those, or would it be better if they just shut it down? I mean Harley is already run by a German.
@@cycletron Keep it alive just like I don't want Boeing to go to the same fate as Fokker in aviation industry even though Fokker is a Dutch company, just to say the former CEO of a sneaker company known as Puma he is better off to run for Nike than for Harley. To say it so being run for an Asian company Harley-Davidson might be better off running for a Japanese company and make motorcycles in Kentucky probably the bikes made in Kentucky could come out to be a better product than the ones made in York, Pennsylvania if Harley-Davidson will be under the ownership of Toyota from Japan. The other will be shifts production to China or if it is Hyundai from South Korea then the bikes will end up being built on Montgomery, Alabama.
Thank you. You make an interesting point. I keep hearing that globalization will come to a relative end with manufacturing being reshored to the U.S. and Mexico. I am all for that.@@Embargoman
@@cycletron No problem competition is fierce to say it all of Chinese manufacturing came up to the quality standards of Germany and Japan, as an example a Mercedes Benz made in China came to the equal quality to a Mercedes Benz made in Germany that a Made in USA Mercedes Benz never reach to the German quality standard as the Chinese made Mercedes does. A Chinese made Buick came to the standards of Opel of Germany instead of GM of the USA, this is how high quality standards China has gone too even Chinese knockoffs of Harley-Davidson came out to a quality standards of a Japanese made Honda than an American made Harley, the reason why Harley-Davidson is in trouble. The reason to say is better off that Toyota of Japan or Hyundai of South Korea could buy Harley-Davidson is to avoid shifting production to China and end up with a better quality product that is made in China that is more reliable than a product that is made in the USA. To say using Toyota's method on Harley-Davidson manufacturing in the USA could have a good quality product that is made in the USA made on the Toyota way in Kentucky next to the factory that makes the Toyota Camry or yet a better quality product coming out of Montgomery, Alabama if South Korea's Hyundai owns them and probably a hybrid bike under Hyundai's ownership. This is the only reason why being owned by either Harley-Davidson be owned by a Japanese or a South Korean company is to create more jobs instead of shifting production overseas that ends up with a product that is made with better quality than it's American made counterpart if it comes from China if a Chinese company owns them.
AMF destroyed the bikes they had no quality control and then they were building them in Italy and then the American taxpayers had to bail out Harley and now they are spitting in the faces of the people who ride Harley’s and this is what happens when a woke foreigner is the CEO and they also have a plant in India
AMF did save the company but by the late seventies the bikes were pretty terrible and overpriced . I live in the UK and can remember road tests in magazines where the test bikes had oil leaking from various places in the photos. In one test of an iron head sportster (the cheapest bike in the range) the bike shed various parts the kick stand fell of early in the test and it ended early with the bike going back to the then importer having put a rod through the cases all this for a not inconsiderable £5500. At the same time you could buy a BMW R100RS as well as a Moto Guzzi 850 Le Mans for the same money and they came with better brakes suspension and didn’t fall apart when you rode them. Fast forward to today the bikes are as reliable as any other manufacturers they come with decent lights and brakes and with the new CVO’s they appear to have sorted the suspension (the last major complaint about the bikes) hopefully the upgrades will trickle down to the rest of the touring range over the next few years. Price wise the bikes are no longer twice the price of their direct competitors and until this year were pretty much level in the touring sector. The fly in the ointment for me are some of the dealerships and their charging a premium over MSRP in the USA and other somewhat predatory practices when selling the bikes. I am not a fan of the present CEO but at this moment in time the politicians are looking to stop the sale of ICE powered vehicles sometime in the next 10 to 20 years so electric bikes should be developed unless a practical clean fuel is discovered .
You make a lot of great points. I wished I had an 850 Le Mans. A friend of mine had one it is a cool bike for sure. I completely agree with you about the problem with these Harley dealerships. They seem to be out for a quick buck and haven't seemed to figure out that they are cannabilizing future sales when people have so much negative equity in their bikes that they won't be ever able to trade it in for a new one.
HD was always the working mans bike. That meant an average guy could buy it. Well with going to premium brand, German CEO ah hmm, they are pricing themselves out of existence. The Boomers are aging out. The youngest is 59, oldest 77. They are not buying bikes. Next is Gen X, they somewhat are but are less name brand particular. Next is Millenials, and Gen Z. MIllenials , the majority, are so deep into debt from collage they can't afford houses much less "Premium Brand" motorcycles. They could ride a smaller motorcycle, like Royal Enfield offers because it's MSRP if $5k , HD offers nothing. Same goes for Gen Z. They would love to have an HD but don't need a rolling sofa that weighs over 1200 lbs with a center of gravity near the handlebars. They could tour easily with 550-850 cc bike and there young bodies can take it. It's why we use them in military.
@@johnj.baranski6553 It is because there is a much smaller number of people from post boomer generations. HD is basically catering to a smaller customer base with each passing year as their average customer age is over 50.
@@johnj.baranski6553 Gen X is smaller than Boomers by quite a margin. Also a number of Gen X waited on children till late 30's. They are now just in high school( wife's classmates have dozens of kids still in school) this takes away from any disposable income. Now for the big gorilla in the room , Millennials. They are age 43 to 25 or so. So in that age group there is roughly 1T dollars in debt for education that was dubious at best. They can't afford anything. They also delayed having kids and are having them at a rate below replacement. Because the HS prepped them for collage , very few went into trades( which is why there is housing shortage. Most trades work on business projects. They get paid more. It's also why auto repair shops are way behind). So now we have a generation with no money, very little skills and still renting way into there 40's. Like they are going to kick out $20K for a starter bike.
Informative review of Harley Davidson’s past to its current status. While I really don’t like publicly traded companies simply because workers get the short end of the stick, I realize it’s capitalism at work. We as Americans love capitalism as long as we are not exploited. Having said that, HD will continue to move forward in keeping their shareholders happy by keeping manufacturing cost low and maximizing profits . In short, one would be foolish to believe HD will continue to make a significant amount of their bikes in America because it’s the right thing to do. Instead, HD will move forward in opening up plants across the globe where labor is cheaper to manufacture its product. It’s already happened with its parts and now there’s talks about introducing a Chinese model. It’s happening folks cause it’s simply Capitalism at work here. I don’t favor it but it’s a reality. HD will survive because the CEO is a sharp cookie and thinks on a global scale. You may not like the high MSRP but the shareholders sure do.
I hate YT. I wrote something and hit the wrong key and shit went away...Long story short, Zeitz was brought in to bring HD into the future and the alienation was expected. One, he's not american and I mean culturally although he has benefited from the rise of the emperor executive class that has risen in the last 45 years in this country(continuation of my response to #Anton_G_604 ). We've lost balance in economics in this country. When execs make 1000x or more than the average pay, it's a problem. Even 100x. Capitalism taken to extremes is a system that is run by psychopaths and benefits them primarily and here we are. What folks seem to forget in their apotheosis of the 1950s is that the tax structure was different as was the work culture. Unions were more accepted too, but I am digressing. Zeitz will be robbing peter to pay paul with Livewire and I have to wonder what happens when he runs out of cover. It's a bitter pill, even if it was ahead if it's time. I see a bigger problem in terms of business model with dealers and HD with pricing and surcharges. HD isn't a Rolex watch or some other niche high end product where premiumization may be warranted. It's like taking a business plan to suit a shrinking demo that will confirm the shrinking demo instead of expanding markets all the while squeezing as much as possible out of the true believers. If the ship is sinking, you can be assured Zeitz will have a lifeboat and yes, it will be a nice one. I can't help but think PT Barnum is laughing his ass off with glee.
Those are all great points Jim. I can't help but think that capitalism has been ruined through a variety of factors and influences. Zeitz is doing the bidding of Blackrock and other investment firms. Their plan is to remake the economy in such a way so that they make more money and yield greater power. They want to slowly strangle anything associated with the old carbon economy. Those people won't be upset if Zeitz tanks HD as they want it to happen at some point anyway.
@@cycletron Some companies have more liquid capital/cash on hand than some first world countries. Another thing is lobbyists. Most folks don't know some of them actually write the laws and policies for politicians. The system is such that people are Farm Animals® to be used to gain a steady stream of capital from to keep the top in good fettle and power/money. That's what it's become and with business and science linked, they do it high tech.
@@my.motorrad Yes, most of the legislation related to healthcare, food and other big industries are written by the lobbyists. The food makes us sick and they healthcare industry deals with the results.
All three of my AMF bikes ran great and where very reliable.
My 1971 boat tail, 1979 Full dresser and my 1975 XLH.
I think most of the negativity comes from people who never even owned a AMF Harley. That being said, Harley has lost its soul a long time ago in terms of tradition.
But in fairness, Harley does indeed produce a high quality product with the traditional 45 degree V Twin. Without it, Harley would go under. Even the woke corporate knows this…. I think????
Thanks for your comments. It seems most people have been happy with their AMF era bikes judging from the comments.
Iv owned most models since early shovel head days. To todays 2023 models. People have always thought they knew better than harley, how to run harley. But theres a reason they lasted 120 yrs CONTINUOUSLY…
@@donpet8258 Yes, you are right. Many people thought they would be done by now.
greetings from Denmark (Europe)
I drive an AMF superglide fxe 1974, I have owned and driven it for 29 years, and over the years it has accumulated many miles.
It is bulletproof in quality and has never disappointed me, it is American quality at its best and it always drives absolutely fantastic.
And if there's one thing in this world that's absolutely certain, it's that I'll never sell it, I'll keep driving it until I die.
Awesome, thanks for commenting!
Had a 1980 Sportster that was a good motorcycle. Never had a problem.
I remember the later AMF years and the quality control issues...but....AMF was did the design work and prototype of the best engine HArley has ever made...the 1340 Evo. Easy to work on and they run about forever with normal maintenance.
Thanks for mentioning this. AMF did a lot to allow HD to survive and they should get more credit for it.
A friend of mine in the 70's had an AMF Harley Davidson mini bike. With the huge fat tires on it. That bike was a blast to ride.
If Harley would bring back something like that again, perhaps it would get kids off their play stations, out of the house, and onto motorcycles?
I also saw a Harley Davidson version of a snowmobile when i was at their training center in Milwaukee. Again, something that possibly could / would get the younger riders interested in the Harley Davidson brand.
But from what i have been seeing, Harley Davidson is going after the Cadillac customers. The ones with deep pockets. And usually so old, it'll be their last purchase.
That analogy with Cadillac is good on several levels considering that both companies are saying they are going to full EVs at some point. Also I agree with you on the mini-bikes and snow mobiles. I am in Minnesota now and the motorcycle dealerships sell mostly ATVs and snow mobiles.
It's the parents that won't let kids do anything even those who whine about the kids of today.
I've owned and ridden Harleys before, during and after the AMF years. On one hand, if it wasn't for AMF there probably would not be a Harley Davidson company today. On the down side, the AMF years were some sad times. The shovelhead was the biggest piece of crap the MoCo ever produced. I say that as a prior panhead owner which was not exactly a paragon of reliability. However, AMF is largely responsible for the development of the Evo which was a great motor and the FXR which was a great motorcycle. Certainly the unions share some of the blame for those dark AMF years. I am not a fan of unions and any "union" that sabotages it's own products is not a friend of the company or the workers they represent. These days, very little of what H-D assembles is made in the USA. And the CEO is not an American or even a motorcycle biker. The MoCo knows *NOTHING* about it's core customer and seems to have zero interest in finding out who they are or serving their needs. Bean counters make the decisions there and they will happily severely reduce the quality of the product if it saves five cents on each unit.The twin cam was a pretty decent platform so H-D gets rid of it for the M8 which has been a poorly designed, poor reliability, insanely overpriced piece of crap. The idiots running H-D seem determined to run the company out of business and I have every confidence that they will succeed.
Thank you, those are all great points. I don't think HD will make it through the next recession.
Your wrong about the m8 motors. They are good motors now. Every time Harley releases a new motor they have to work the bugs out of them for the first 3 to 4 years. Remember the cam chain issues when the twin cam came out.the twin cams also had overheating issues. The cranks on the twin cam are piss poor with some going over 12 thousands of runout called slop.
As a sum total of parts the M8 is a great engine. Each new platform all have kinks, but today any evo, twin cam or m8 can go the distance. There was a guy who did 100,000 miles in like 100 days for charity. That's some fucking mileage, not sure what or if l anything major needed work but I'm sure if it did there was no way you'd be able to keep going that far, that fast....
Great early history CJ. I had a 1978 shovelhead. Although it was a blast to ride, it had so many expensive repairs that I sold it in 1991 and bought an '86 FXR Evo and have never wanted to ride anything else since.
Thank you. I hear a lot of people say how much they love their EVOs and praise their reliability.
AMF paid for the development of the Evo engine, the 5 speed transmission, the new FXR and FLT frame and it's rubbermount system used later on the Dynas. They bought the design and paid for the R+D the Softail chassis. They brought electric start and disc brakes to the entire product line, introduced electronic ignition and updated suspension on everything, increased displacement on both Big Twins and Sportsters, as well as converted them to run on unleaded fuel and meet new emissions on noise standards.
Harley never would have survived without them.
Well said and exactly right. I don't think HD will survive their current CEO and board of directors.
My first Harley was a used 1974 1200 Super-Glide FXE (Both kick and electric-start).
I loved that bike!
Many AMF bikes, from what I understand, were not reliable, but mine was fantastic!
My FXE ALWAYS started up by the first or second kick, It NEVER leaked oil (like many Harley's of the time) and
it ALWAYS ran great!
My only complaint was that the fuel tank was too small (about 3.5 gals W/1 gal. res.).
I currently have a 2015 Fat-Bob that I bought new and love the refinements (I still wish I had kept my FXE for friends to ride).
There are pros and cons to each.
When I was in the Navy and stationed in the Philippines (mid-70s) I had the chance to buy a 59' Pan-head for $1,200!
What a missed opportunity!
Anyway, I still have my Fat-Bob and love it to pieces!
I'd love to have a new Road-Glide, but I don't have $45,000 burning a hole in my pocket, but there's always the lottery! lol
To answer your question (Was HD better off under AMF's ownership?) No.
Why? Because AMF neglected to invest money into R&D for HD.
They were about to dump HD which would have extincted the brand.
That's when Willie G. and other investors bought them from AMF.
There are many reasons why HD is failing, but primarily because Millenials are not buying them as their parents did!
HD's prices have sky rocked beyond the reach of the average Joe/Jane!
Willie G. and Co. turned HD around with the New "evolution" engine (Blockhead) which vastly improved the reliability of the engine.
My FXE was a simple, but dated "Shovel-head" motor and I absolutely loved that bike, and mine (just speaking for myself) was very reliable!
I hope this kind of answers your question.
- Cuno
Thank you for sharing your experiences with your Shovel-head! It sounds like it was an awesome bike for you. Too bad you didn't snag the Pan!
It seems that the 70's may have been the peak for car and motorcycle culture in the U.S., but hopefully it will continue on in some form.
all my AMF bikes were awesome 80 xlh 78 fxe 2 80 flh and a 80 fxs.only harley that ever failed me was a 98 fatboy rods crankpin got tight.
AMF invested heavily into Harley. Besides a steady progression of new models, realize that a water-cooled twin, four and six were co-developed with Porsche in the late seventies. This new, high performing platform was ultimately never used in actual production, however.
Most importantly, the EVO engine was developed during this period as well. AMF did that, not "Willie G. and Co.".
Great video! "History is written by the victors"... I think that is one of the big reasons of "sad AMF years". I would love to see longer video digging deeper into the AMF years. Would be great to hear unbiased inside view.
Thank you!
Coincidental to this video, the Harley pan am demo truck was at my dealer today. They were offering free t shirts for a test ride. I’ve been riding adv bikes for twenty years now (currently tenere 700) and I’ve always wanted to ride one of these new high hp adv bikes. The engine grenaded about 1/2 mile into the ride. I say grenade because it sounded like mike Tyson with a aluminum bat was inside the cases trying to get out, loss of power; all manner of lights; limp mode and then a big bang before it gave up the ghost. They had to trailer it back. But hey, i got the shirt😂
Wow, that is disappointing on several fronts. I have heard that there have been many reliability problems with the Pan Am and Sportster S. I have ridden both and they are fast and fun, I just wouldn't buy one yet.
Sounds like they forgot to service it with oil first. It is like buying a new lawn mower. Don't pull the cord until you check the crankcase for oil.
I had two PA. First one, a 21, went through 2 water pumps and had many electrical glitches that wouldn't allow it to start at random times in 10k miles. So I traded it for a '22 in hopes of better luck. Owned it for 6 months and 1200 miles with continual oil leakage from left side that couldn't be fixed, even after changing the affected parts and seals. So it's gone and my adventure bike days are over unless I jump brands, which is a temptation. Fun bike to ride but no trust in it to go anywhere.
Of interest my '22 came from the factory with oil barely showing on the dipstick with a warm engine.
@@johnwoodworth4204 I’ll say that they gave me a different bike to ride after that. My goodness the power! I learned that 150hp, or whatever it dishes out in the default riding mode is too much for me. Would be one heck of a bike if the gremlins were worked out. 😊
Let me explain something, Harley can but will not build a rock solid maintenance free motor. The way Harley operates is they want you to upgrade the bikes with screaming Eagle parts, pay the Harley shop to have them installed, pay them for upgrades and bring it in for regular maintenance. Harley makes it money from parts, service And apparel. You have 2 types of people, those who accept that and own Harley’s and those who don’t usually move on to other brands. Anyone who has been in the Harley game knows how they operate.
That definitely has been their business model. I saw where someone pointed out that the VVT CVOs will no lend themselves to stage upgrades or exhaust modification. If that is true, it will change Harley's revenue stream when VVT engines are introduced throughout their model line up.
I hear the same about the vvt. Maybe no screaming Eagle exhaust mods due to the epa. Thank god for massive passionate 3rd party companies that will overcome these issues. Let’s be real, no one is going to buy these bikes at that price and not be able to change the intake And exhaust. Things will change once these 3rd party companies get ahold of these bikes.
I bought an '09 Roadglide and rode it 10 years bone stock. Then sold it for what I was asking. I didn't play the aftermarket game and still enjoyed my bike as much as anyone. Then I bought another one new. I didn't move on to another brand.
That’s you man. Bone stock sounds like a lot of fun. I’m on my 4th Harley. Own a 2006 ultra and new 23 RG-ST.
AMF shovel heads were nice motorcycles in 1981. A friend of mine had one and it was pretty nice. I think a motorsports company like Polaris or CanAm would do wonders for Harley Davidson if they were the parent company. The Harley leadership now only cares about the stockholder and will not give two bits about the motorcycle brand. They will run it as long as they can suck money out of it and then leave it to fail after they have all jumped ship.
I think you are right about that being the game plan. The tenure of most executives at big corporations is about 3 to 4 years so they won't be sticking around for the aftermath of their decision making.
Venture capital owners says it all....
They will bud light themselves in no time. It's already in motion after that 120th pride parade.
What if it where to be owned by a Chinese company or own by CR and shift 100% of their production to China and meets CR standards to match with Yamaha when Harley-Davidson make their motorcycles in China and exports to the USA and meets with equal quality to their Japanese counterparts?
What if Polaris owns and and sells Indian to Toyota and then Indian outsells Harley-Davidson even if Harley-Davidson is owned by Polaris and Indian owned by Toyota and creates to Mega Chief.
Great Video, i was 14 years old and just moved from New England to South Dakota (Adopted Dad was an Air Force Res Chaplin) and i traded my G5-100 Kawasaki for a Harley SX125 and Got a Job as the Lot Boy at Black Hills Harley/Yamaha so my career with HD started in the AMF Era, and Frankly i thought it was a great time for Harley with the Italian Aermacchi bikes like my SX and the Sprint back then Harley Had Entry level bikes, it's when i became hooked on Harley-Davidson. and like you pointed out all the innovation during the AMF years, like the FX, CJ are you aware after the FX in 71 that model became the Experimental model, the FXE 1st Electronic ignition, the FXB (Sturgis) the 1st Belt Drive, the FXR the 1st Rubber Mount, etc etc it was AMF that paid for the R&D for the Evo, the Softail and More, i was still just a kid, but when i graduated HS i bought a 77 FXS lowrider and had that bike till 92 with many many trouble free miles , the bad reputation came from just before AMF sold the Motor Co back to the HD Executives the unions were causing problems thus the worst AMF Harleys 79, and 80. Trivia: AMF started out as a company that made Cigarette Machines, most of their machines could be found in bowling alleys. and AMF invested in Bowling, made good profit and then looked atall sports they owned Voit Balls, Sunfish Sail Boats and More. I worked my way from lot boy to dealer GM, and i retired in 2010 and frankly Harley in my opinion is going the WRONG direction and the German CEO needs to be Fired, and i think maybe we the riders should bring back the Flip the patch. my 2008 Road King will be my last Harley
Thank you Bruce! Your Harley knowledge is vast. It is surprising to me how much hate AMF gets for owning Harley for a time, but I don't think it is at all deserved either. Before AMF HD nearly went bankrupt. After all of the labor issues, AMF HD was in bad shape when Willie G and others got it back for a pretty low price. They then went to the federal government to get protection from Japanese competition.
On the patch issue, I am seeing people comment that they are either flipping their patches and/or de-badging their Harleys.
@cycletron in the early 90s the Evo era many of the old school bikers thought harley was turning too much toward the yuppies and RUBs , i joined many and left the dealership for an Easyrider franchise that opened in our old building, but a year later the easyrider store was no different and in some cases we were charging more than the HD dealership, and i was still young and it was a wake up, harley davidson isn't what everyone thinks, its just another business trying to make money. But i kiked the amf years, liked the bikes, in fact if harley today ran a bit more like amf i think the motor company would do well.
Would you buy a Harley if the company be on Chinese ownership?
I bought a brand new 1971 SX 350 Sprint. Rode that thing from motocross tracks to the LA freeways. Blew 3 transmissions. 2 under warranty. At least they had bikes that a young guy could afford while dreaming about the bigger ones. They should have kept the Buell line, I have a Ulysses that I love. I also have an Ultra Classic and a 97 Road King. I doubt that I will buy a new one now.
AMF was also responsible for the development of the Evo motor. People forget that part when they are complaining about that time. Also, union labor disputes in the 1970's affected most industries; it wasn't just Harley.
The same corporate conglomeration of AMF that saved H-D in 1969 eventually became its enemy. AMF wasn't just bowling alleys. They had many divisions, producing all kinds of consumer and industrial products. AMF invested a lot in H-D, and the H-D division was always a profitable one for them. But many of the other AMF divisions didn't fare so well, and by the late 1970's the company as a whole was in severe dire straits. Managers saw the writing on the wall, and were seeking other career opportunities before the company went belly-up. This was another one of the reasons that H-D quality really suffered in the late 1970's and early 1980's up until the buyback. The Wheel Division of AMF that made bicycles suffered even worse with quality control issues than H-D did. At least the EVO engine was well in the works at the end of the AMF period, and it gave Willie G. and Vaughn Beals something to build on with the company.
I think your analysis of the history with AMF and HD makes a lot of sense. Thank you for commenting.
Never understood the amf hate. They saved the brand from certain doom and gave the name a chance where many may not have. As for quality control issues, i think it was a common theme for most manufacturers for that era and i dont think amf was worse by any means compared to other companies. As far as im concerned, AMF designed the evo engine, made a new and bettter manufacturing facility and made the company profitable again. Wasn’t poorly managed as much as it was poorly conceived by the public, hostile to change.
HD isn't unique in its journey. Piaggio was almost bankrupt in 2002 when the Colaninno family stepped in taking it private to save it. Roberto Colaninno once said, "A lot of people told me I was crazy. Piaggio wasn't dying. It just needed to be treated better." Colaninno implement Japanese quality techniques and retrained every employee saying, "Everyone in this company is part of the value chain". In 2003 to increase scale and market size, Colaninno bought Aprilia / Moto Guzzi. In 2006, Piaggio when public as a stock company. I believe AMF, as a conglomerate, understood the financing, investment, marketing, and production side of HD but their critical mistake was they didn't "treat the product or employees better" which lead to their quality issues. Overall, I think Zeitz is doing a great job given the hand of cards he was dealt. The company has direction, focus, gaining on financial stability, and turning our high quality and in demand products. He's "treating the company and product better". The only issue I see is scale. Can HD generate enough free flow cash to fund R&D, product development, and production of new models. The new VVT on the CVO's is a good step but HD needs a full water cooled M8, a lighter touring frame, and begin to expand the RevolutionMAX models (Bronx and 975 PA please). Hopefully, with a new CEO and CTO LiveWire will find itself but they need a segment leading product offering and the new Del Mar S2 isn't it. LiveWire needs to think EV mobility and not EV motorcycles. Like Vespa and Piaggio electric scooters are selling like hot cakes in the EU - solving a mobility problem.
Those are great points Gene. The only thing I would add is I think the problem with Harley's EV play is that they are focused on high margin bikes (just like with the rest of their product line). However, as you point out, those type of expensive and big EV motorcycles isn't what people want at this point.
I don't know how many dealerships had closed under AMF, but i sure have seen a number of them close under Harley Davidson.
The dealership 2 miles from my shop closed up this week. The announcement came earlier this month. Think they would have had a going out of business sale?
Never happened. Their motorcycles got transferred to a mega store......
Yes Harley continues to consolidate their dealership network in favor of the megadealers which is not a good trend at all for customers or prospective customers. Harley's pushing a new build out called FUEL. I don't know the details yet but it's likely to push more people out when they can't afford the capital expenditure.
I bought a brand new AMF XLCH Sportster in '75 and still own it although I fully chopped it in '77. Nothing wrong with that bike except for the front brake rotor coming loose on me once. Nothing a bit of Loc Tite couldn't fix.
I'll bet you are glad that you hung on to that Sportster.
Interesting comment on diversification with Polaris as an example....I recall when Harley also made snowmobiles and golf carts....plus there was the AMF era Aermacchi singles for a while, so there is no reason it could not do so again other than shite management.
Thank you. HD's current idea on diversification is to include electric motorcycles that nobody wants.
The aftermarket saved Harley years ago. Hard to say if it will this time. I love my custom vtwin.
I think the ideal scenario is that Harley goes tits up and a group of hard core enthusiasts pick up the pieces and build bikes that bring the brand roaring back to life. I won’t be holding my breath.
That sounds great but it requires huge cash investment and that would require a parent corporation like Polaris(American made) to buy it. Indian kept failing because everyone that bought the brand did not have the cash to make it work. It changed hands and changed hands until a parent corporation wanted the name to bring it back and make it innovative and profitable and not just a knockoff Harley. Jay Leno did a video on it. S&S made their company on the back of Harley Davidson making all of the improvements that the stock engines needed.
@@semperfipar1299 Oh yeah it’s easy to say vs going out and actually doing it. Add in the fact that the US Government will make sure it’s more difficult than it needs to be as well. I’ve seen crazier things happen though.
My best car was a Ford Pinto back when I was a college student getting over 100,000 miles, just don’t have someone crash into your rear!!!!!!!
Exactly. We had a Pinto back in the day too!
Spot on sir I have 03 softail last year the dealership were i bought my bike told me they can't work on my bike anymore because its older then a 08 So I guess in 20 years they won't work on anything but electric bikes I was a chapter member and a M V P member NOT ANYMORE 😢
Thank you. Yes, it is surprising how many of the dealerships won't work on bikes that are more than 10 years old. I guess they just want to keep selling new ones!
Royal Enfield is the Harley-Davidson of India and they have a vibrant motorcycle culture because they can't afford to buy a car. If they could they be training them in on a car. Despite the problems they had with employee sabotage and a few problems with outside suppliers they did not have the horrible issues that today's Harley have. They also had a range of motorcycles to fit everyone during the AMF years. AMF did not go after independent shops, they also didn't get into useless litigation about the exhaust sounds that they may try to trademark that which got thrown out of court. They also try to sue the Japanese manufacturers for making their bikes look like a pseudo Harley. Look at the major goofs that they have made in 25 years of self-management. They killed the fuel line of sport bikes and beginner bikes, they came out with the twin-cam that was cheaper to build but was loaded with mechanical deficiencies. They tried the experiment with cheap indian-made Honda clone copies at Harley-Davidson prices of course. They never invested in the company the way that AMF invested in Harley. They built the York engine plant to streamline production. AMF spent seven to ten million dollars investing in Harley-Davidson back with a million dollars was a lot of money. AMF design ed the evolution motor which has been Harley's best motor ever in the modern age bar none. AMF never went after the mom-and-pop Harley dealerships the way the new company has been doing. The management of Harley-Davidson has been blood-sucking the company dry. The live wire has been a expensive and financial debacle. When people wish that AMF still ran Harley-Davidson you know something's up. Finally the last thing they messed up with killing the evolution Sportster thinking that people are going to buy a $15,000 piece of crap nightster.
Frank you are spot on and each of these points. I could do a whole video on what you just covered!
Idk about that but AMf saved HD for sure my shovel is AMF
Did the audio recording happen only on the left channel ? I hear it only on the left earpiece…
The audio got messed up on this one. I had to kill 1 channel because there was too much echo. I don't have access to my regular studio right now.
AMF Harleys with quality control issues?? Circa 1979, when I first got interested in HDs in Australia, Harley generously "offered" a 3 month or 3000 km warranty - an accurate testament to their confidence in their own product! I tend to disagree though that diversity of products is necessarily a good thing. For me, Polaris is a prime example of this. I think Indian would be better as a stand alone company, at least from a marketing perspectve. When I owned a 2015 Scout I would CRINGE when Slingshot owners would wave to me as a "Polaris Brother" or whatever they thought. I just felt, still feel, I have nothing in terms of "shared experience" with such three wheeled sports car drivers. Same applies to a Polaris snow mobile owners! All power to them, but we have little in common, for me. I also never emotionally felt that my own Polaris "Indian" shared the DNA of the original Indian bikes. Just me. So for me Polais, as a multi product company, is a real negative. It might be good from the company revenue / share holder perspective , but not, for me, as an owner. I mean put it this way - I personally wondered if my Scout's motor shared technology with, say, snow mobiles. Who cares? some may say - but for me, it took away from the ownership experience. AND the Scout had multiple quality control issues as well - but that's another story!
I can see that perspective, but today Harley is run by a bunch of executives who really aren't bikers. Maybe it is simply up to the customers to preserve the biking culture. I have heard from others about reliability problems with the Scouts. Except for the Rev Max engines, I think that Harleys have been pretty reliable lately.
Very interesting and thought provoking! 🇬🇧
Thank you!
love it,fascinating docco,,i remember seeing a AMF SUPER GLIDE out the front of a ten pin bowling alley when i was a kid,,i think theyre great,,and wish i had one,,thanks again from australia
Glad you enjoyed it
The problem is the motor co. can't by itself back now and place the blame on former ownership. They somehow have to be competitive with the Japanese brands in pricing as well as production numbers to be able to attract the necessary buyers that would surely keep the co. viable to its investors. They have to swallow their prestige pride and get cheap while trying to retain the quality that has dramatically improved since the AMF era. All while still being manufactured in the USA! THE feature selling point!! So, as far as production numbers, yes they were better off under AMF. But that's where it ends. I know it's not easy anymore with the whole cost of raw materials, and supply chain, blah, blah. We used to have everything we needed to manufacture just about anything without importing anything. F'n globalization put an end to that and now we're f'd right along with them. Doesn't matter who's running the ship.
I think that eventually all HDs will be made overseas. Globalization has messed over the U.S. but it also looks like globalization is about to unravel. China's demographic problem is going to produce a big drop in their workers and consumers. That same is true in Japan and other countries.
Well, if they plan on overseas manufacturing, say good bye to their core customer base who will boycott the Co. flood the used market. And actually consider buying from a WOKE co. I don't see a happy ending for HDMC or its shareholders. But that's just me.
If Toyota rides the ship would you buy Harley?
I bought an AMF XLH Sportster new in 1977. I still have it and still use it and wouldn't part with it and proudly sport the AMF decals on the fuel tank.
That bike is a keeper.
@@cycletron Thank you for your reply My bud bought a 1975 AMF XLH Sportster new and also still has it and proudly sports the AMF decals on the tank. Another good friend has just restored a late 70's Superglide and has built it as original as possible including the proper paint colour and AMF tank decals. I did hear of some things go wrong with these bikes back in the day and mine was no different. These were simple to fix and I removed the offending far eastern made parts and replaced them with American made ones. I got these from Ace Armstong's Harley-Davidson dealership in Miami ( no internet in those days) all done over the phone from UK. He was a fantastic guy to deal with but sadly his business was wrecked during the Miami riots back then.
Happy New Year 2024!
@@skyhill4279 How cool that you and your friends have these bikes! Happy New Year!
I've owned thirteen H-D over fifty-three years. Only AMF era was a new 1981 FLH. Quality was in the toilet. Constant electrical problems.
I bought a new 1976 sportster $2500 out the door ,not a bad bike,only regret is i didn't buy a superglide or dresser,they were only250-300 $ more.piss on china davidson of today
Having riden Hd & living thru all of those years you just described..2 or 3 of your comments were close, with the rest way off factual basis !. Still entertaining..
Thank you for watching and commenting!
Great video. Harley loyalists who disparage AMF would be like modern Jeep owners talking smack about AMC. Respect and honor your past for it has given you a future.
Thank you, that is a great point.
My 74 FXE is still running strong
Harley needs to back to the blue collar customers , the disco version of a dealership only scares me off
I can never deal at those places either. I stick with the Mom and Pop dealers.
Move production to China and export to the USA that is the solution.
I love and hate the amf years. I hate the quality control, i loved the cafe bike, the italian bikes, the golfcarts, the dirt bike. So i dont know.
Once the owners had the issues sorted on the AMF bikes they had the best of both worlds.
I have owned a Honda vehicle since my first car in 1993 and many more since.. Now I have a 2022 Ridgeline sitting in my garage because Honda sold and delivered to me quality and reliable product and have won me over for life. I cant say that about American vehicles because they make shit products now and only care about greed.
Likewise but I have been buying Toyotas. They have been totally reliable.
@@cycletron Team Toyota(Lexus) as well.
Yeah to say Airbus is the Toyota of Airplanes now.
I seriously doubt Harley's ability to exist in it's present form as a stand alone publically traded company for much longer. They really need to merge with a larger conglomerate automotive group. Unfortunately there is slim pickings for such a merger with a US company. I have been laughed at before for the suggestion, but if you look at the cultural space that Royal Enfield and Harley both occupy in their native countries I think it might be a good match. Royal Enfield is the Harley Davison of India and India does have a vibrant motorcycle culture. Here in the States such a merger would give dealers both the lower cost, entry level, good value RE bikes and higher end Harleys on the same show room floor. The history and heritage of both makes is highly marketable. The only question is would the conglomerate that owns RE want Harley Davidson?
I think your idea about RE buying HD has a lot of merit. It would give HD the chance to shut down their York plant (which I am sure will happen at some point (perhaps when the next Union contract is up for renewal) and source cheaper overseas production.
The gettysburg HD dealer sells Royal Enfield
I had good bikes that were AMF era.
Harley will bud light themselves in no time. After the 120th pride parade, the visuals speak for themselves.
I bought a 1977 xlch new never had a problem 2800 brand new
Your best bet, if you want an HD, buy an older model, that way you can work on it yourself, if you want my opinion!
I agree. I think more and more people are discovering that path!
Nice production.
Thanks very much!
So I get an email from HD about a new HD members club??? "H-D Membership is a community platform and membership program that will bring together riders and moto-culture fans under the "United We Ride" banner to connect, engage and ride with one another, according to the company. H-D Membership is intended for riders and fans to enjoy a personalized experience of in-app social features, riding benefits and access to the Harley-Davidson brand. H-D Membership is a new and positive hub for moto-culture - serving as an inspiration to riders and non-riders alike." Membership includes a rewards program with an optional HD Visa card with points. Actually, this sounds like something other motorcycle manufacturers should be doing.
I think it's pretty smart of HD to do these things. Companies need to do more to try and control their narrative on social media as several companies are finding out the hard way right now.
@@cycletron What I'm interested in is how far they will go with this loyalty /rewards program. Like the North Face VIPeak rewards that “turn their passion for adventure into real rewards.” They offer discounts on all kinds of products plus travel packages and services. Will HD tie in the "its not a motorcycle, its a life style" with something like a VIPeak deal? Something like this could set HD apart as more than a motorcycle company.
@@geneclarke2205 The funny thing is I didn't even get their email. Maybe I'm too old for their target market.
@@cycletron I received it via my local dealer along with the weekly "stop by and see what's just come in from the factory" notice. You know, when they make me CEO, I'm making a lot of changes - first up my compensation over the Zeitz sweet deal, second, see if Warren Buffet has any extra cash he's not using, and third, get some QC over suppliers. I'm still waiting for the call.
@@geneclarke2205 Sounds like you have the right priorities and are waiting for that call just as I am waiting for my invitation to their next big model launch!
Harley’s are building there best bikes ever and I do hope they stay independent! As for price, Harley is definitely competitive, plus they are a pinnacle brand. Isn’t a Porsche expensive?!
I have a Porsche and the quality and performace is well above what you can get from any Harley. I liked my 2019 S.G.S. but there is just no comparison.
Any CEO for Harley-Davidson thinks that replacing combustible Harley-Davidson engines with electric does not need to be in that position first step is to get rid of that German fuck put someone who rides who knows motorcycles who loves Harley-Davidson you want to keep it the way it is
I agree. He needs to be fired along with the other board of directors.
@@cycletronI have three Harleys for over 30 years I've have a 54 FL stock a stock 78FLH and my last new bike was a 2012 FLHTCI I should be running Harley-Davidson
Yesterday Harley was Awesome and today Harley is an over priced joke of a motorcycle
Very well done, CJ.
Thank you kindly!
Great video.
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!
Amazing video well said. 👏
Thank you, I appreciate it!
To say what if Harley-Davidson is sold to Toyota or to a Chinese company?
Would Harley-Davidson improves their quality under the ownership of a Chinese company or under the ownership of Toyota?
What about if Hyundai owns Harley-Davidson?
Another question would be whether you would prefer Harley to survive if it meant being owned by a company like those, or would it be better if they just shut it down? I mean Harley is already run by a German.
@@cycletron Keep it alive just like I don't want Boeing to go to the same fate as Fokker in aviation industry even though Fokker is a Dutch company, just to say the former CEO of a sneaker company known as Puma he is better off to run for Nike than for Harley.
To say it so being run for an Asian company Harley-Davidson might be better off running for a Japanese company and make motorcycles in Kentucky probably the bikes made in Kentucky could come out to be a better product than the ones made in York, Pennsylvania if Harley-Davidson will be under the ownership of Toyota from Japan.
The other will be shifts production to China or if it is Hyundai from South Korea then the bikes will end up being built on Montgomery, Alabama.
Thank you. You make an interesting point. I keep hearing that globalization will come to a relative end with manufacturing being reshored to the U.S. and Mexico. I am all for that.@@Embargoman
@@cycletron No problem competition is fierce to say it all of Chinese manufacturing came up to the quality standards of Germany and Japan, as an example a Mercedes Benz made in China came to the equal quality to a Mercedes Benz made in Germany that a Made in USA Mercedes Benz never reach to the German quality standard as the Chinese made Mercedes does.
A Chinese made Buick came to the standards of Opel of Germany instead of GM of the USA, this is how high quality standards China has gone too even Chinese knockoffs of Harley-Davidson came out to a quality standards of a Japanese made Honda than an American made Harley, the reason why Harley-Davidson is in trouble.
The reason to say is better off that Toyota of Japan or Hyundai of South Korea could buy Harley-Davidson is to avoid shifting production to China and end up with a better quality product that is made in China that is more reliable than a product that is made in the USA.
To say using Toyota's method on Harley-Davidson manufacturing in the USA could have a good quality product that is made in the USA made on the Toyota way in Kentucky next to the factory that makes the Toyota Camry or yet a better quality product coming out of Montgomery, Alabama if South Korea's Hyundai owns them and probably a hybrid bike under Hyundai's ownership.
This is the only reason why being owned by either Harley-Davidson be owned by a Japanese or a South Korean company is to create more jobs instead of shifting production overseas that ends up with a product that is made with better quality than it's American made counterpart if it comes from China if a Chinese company owns them.
@@Embargoman I have owned Toyota Tundras made in Texas for many trouble free years so you make a good point.
AMF destroyed the bikes they had no quality control and then they were building them in Italy and then the American taxpayers had to bail out Harley and now they are spitting in the faces of the people who ride Harley’s and this is what happens when a woke foreigner is the CEO and they also have a plant in India
AMF did save the company but by the late seventies the bikes were pretty terrible and overpriced . I live in the UK and can remember road tests in magazines where the test bikes had oil leaking from various places in the photos. In one test of an iron head sportster (the cheapest bike in the range) the bike shed various parts the kick stand fell of early in the test and it ended early with the bike going back to the then importer having put a rod through the cases all this for a not inconsiderable £5500. At the same time you could buy a BMW R100RS as well as a Moto Guzzi 850 Le Mans for the same money and they came with better brakes suspension and didn’t fall apart when you rode them. Fast forward to today the bikes are as reliable as any other manufacturers they come with decent lights and brakes and with the new CVO’s they appear to have sorted the suspension (the last major complaint about the bikes) hopefully the upgrades will trickle down to the rest of the touring range over the next few years. Price wise the bikes are no longer twice the price of their direct competitors and until this year were pretty much level in the touring sector. The fly in the ointment for me are some of the dealerships and their charging a premium over MSRP in the USA and other somewhat predatory practices when selling the bikes. I am not a fan of the present CEO but at this moment in time the politicians are looking to stop the sale of ICE powered vehicles sometime in the next 10 to 20 years so electric bikes should be developed unless a practical clean fuel is discovered .
You make a lot of great points. I wished I had an 850 Le Mans. A friend of mine had one it is a cool bike for sure. I completely agree with you about the problem with these Harley dealerships. They seem to be out for a quick buck and haven't seemed to figure out that they are cannabilizing future sales when people have so much negative equity in their bikes that they won't be ever able to trade it in for a new one.
HD was always the working mans bike. That meant an average guy could buy it. Well with going to premium brand, German CEO ah hmm, they are pricing themselves out of existence. The Boomers are aging out. The youngest is 59, oldest 77. They are not buying bikes. Next is Gen X, they somewhat are but are less name brand particular. Next is Millenials, and Gen Z. MIllenials , the majority, are so deep into debt from collage they can't afford houses much less "Premium Brand" motorcycles. They could ride a smaller motorcycle, like Royal Enfield offers because it's MSRP if $5k , HD offers nothing. Same goes for Gen Z. They would love to have an HD but don't need a rolling sofa that weighs over 1200 lbs with a center of gravity near the handlebars. They could tour easily with 550-850 cc bike and there young bodies can take it. It's why we use them in military.
I thing your analysis of the demographics is spot on.
Isn't there a new group of 55 year olds with money being created every day? So if that's Harleys target market why would they be in trouble?.
@@johnj.baranski6553 It is because there is a much smaller number of people from post boomer generations. HD is basically catering to a smaller customer base with each passing year as their average customer age is over 50.
@@johnj.baranski6553 Gen X is smaller than Boomers by quite a margin. Also a number of Gen X waited on children till late 30's. They are now just in high school( wife's classmates have dozens of kids still in school) this takes away from any disposable income.
Now for the big gorilla in the room , Millennials. They are age 43 to 25 or so. So in that age group there is roughly 1T dollars in debt for education that was dubious at best. They can't afford anything. They also delayed having kids and are having them at a rate below replacement. Because the HS prepped them for collage , very few went into trades( which is why there is housing shortage. Most trades work on business projects. They get paid more. It's also why auto repair shops are way behind). So now we have a generation with no money, very little skills and still renting way into there 40's. Like they are going to kick out $20K for a starter bike.
Informative review of Harley Davidson’s past to its current status. While I really don’t like publicly traded companies simply because workers get the short end of the stick, I realize it’s capitalism at work. We as Americans love capitalism as long as we are not exploited. Having said that, HD will continue to move forward in keeping their shareholders happy by keeping manufacturing cost low and maximizing profits . In short, one would be foolish to believe HD will continue to make a significant amount of their bikes in America because it’s the right thing to do. Instead, HD will move forward in opening up plants across the globe where labor is cheaper to manufacture its product. It’s already happened with its parts and now there’s talks about introducing a Chinese model. It’s happening folks cause it’s simply Capitalism at work here. I don’t favor it but it’s a reality. HD will survive because the CEO is a sharp cookie and thinks on a global scale. You may not like the high MSRP but the shareholders sure do.
Thanks very much. I think you are right that it is just a matter of time before HD closes their York plant and has all vehicle assembly done overseas.
Plus the Chinese made models, will have the same build quality as Harley's Japanese competitors.
Harley is a dying company
I agree. I give them 2 more years tops before it is over.
Harley’s, big nasty V8’s, rip the gates of hell down diesels…I think we can thank our government for ruining them all.
Harley Davidson would be bankropt if pass employees had not bought the company from AMF
Sold all my Harleys accept my 04 Springer including 2 AMF bikes
I think you picked good ones to hang onto. I always like the looks of the Springer.
I hate YT. I wrote something and hit the wrong key and shit went away...Long story short, Zeitz was brought in to bring HD into the future and the alienation was expected. One, he's not american and I mean culturally although he has benefited from the rise of the emperor executive class that has risen in the last 45 years in this country(continuation of my response to #Anton_G_604 ). We've lost balance in economics in this country. When execs make 1000x or more than the average pay, it's a problem. Even 100x. Capitalism taken to extremes is a system that is run by psychopaths and benefits them primarily and here we are. What folks seem to forget in their apotheosis of the 1950s is that the tax structure was different as was the work culture. Unions were more accepted too, but I am digressing. Zeitz will be robbing peter to pay paul with Livewire and I have to wonder what happens when he runs out of cover. It's a bitter pill, even if it was ahead if it's time. I see a bigger problem in terms of business model with dealers and HD with pricing and surcharges. HD isn't a Rolex watch or some other niche high end product where premiumization may be warranted. It's like taking a business plan to suit a shrinking demo that will confirm the shrinking demo instead of expanding markets all the while squeezing as much as possible out of the true believers. If the ship is sinking, you can be assured Zeitz will have a lifeboat and yes, it will be a nice one. I can't help but think PT Barnum is laughing his ass off with glee.
Those are all great points Jim. I can't help but think that capitalism has been ruined through a variety of factors and influences. Zeitz is doing the bidding of Blackrock and other investment firms. Their plan is to remake the economy in such a way so that they make more money and yield greater power. They want to slowly strangle anything associated with the old carbon economy. Those people won't be upset if Zeitz tanks HD as they want it to happen at some point anyway.
@@cycletron Some companies have more liquid capital/cash on hand than some first world countries. Another thing is lobbyists. Most folks don't know some of them actually write the laws and policies for politicians. The system is such that people are Farm Animals® to be used to gain a steady stream of capital from to keep the top in good fettle and power/money. That's what it's become and with business and science linked, they do it high tech.
@@my.motorrad Yes, most of the legislation related to healthcare, food and other big industries are written by the lobbyists. The food makes us sick and they healthcare industry deals with the results.