Solving the Knight in Deltarune | Does Gerson Create Fiction? | Deltarune Theory and Discussion
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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Even though Deltarune has been around for quite a while, that doesn't change the fact that the fanbase still argues over the identity of the mysterious KNIGHT. Could it be Papyrus? Alvin? Sans? Could it be... Gaster? These kinds of discussions have been plaguing my mind, to the point where I've decided to throw my hat in the ring and give my thoughts on who the Knight could be in Deltarune. While discussing the Knight, I ALSO began thinking a lot about Gerson as well. It seems there may be more secrets he's hiding then we realize...
Fangames played: "Undertale Bits and Pieces" by Mr. George, "Deltarune Chapter Rewritten - Scampton the Great" by Sad Bread, Deltarune Another Creation by "VOICE-DELTARUNE", and Mike's Big Showdown by "Sad_Bread_Official"
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#deltarune #deltarunechapter2 #undertale #theory
what if the knight is a vessel?
1. they have narrative value
2. related to Kris and have parallels with them.
3. this is a familiar character to us, seeing them in Chapter 1 and then in chapter 5 would be exciting.
4. We know them, but not as much as other characters in Hometown to rewrite their entire personality in revealing
5. LITERALLY RELATED TO GA- oh i mean GEOFF
Ooh, it would be really cool if our lost GONER vessel is being used by someone else...
The vessel could also get back at us for not being the vessel of the soul, as in the protagonist. So it plays antagonist as revenge.
It kind of feels like the only evidence to this theory is “it would be cool”
Allow a further consideration
What if Kris' soul is in the vessel, thats why our soul is in their body.
@@Kade811antagonist = villain
Maybe you meant protagonist?
I still think either Kriss is the knight. Or the knight is not a single person but just the name for anyone who opens a fountain.
22:17 essence theory jumpscare
Wait wait wait wait. Egg in windings is the moves of knights in chess. What if we will never know who the knight is? What if the knight is someone who made the dark worlds and then retired to give away eggs?
i keep getting jumpscared by foamy toby
papyrums night :)
It's obviously Bat-Man.
They literally call him "The Dark Knight"
18:37 I will note that the religion of Deltarune is not Christianity, but it is clearly trying to imitate it though.
When the Roaring Knight was revealed to be controlled by his evil brother the Busting Knught, I felt that
Normally, I’d cringe at that kind of joke. This time, though, I appreciated the creativity required and gave you a like…
…as well as cringed
what did i just read...
It came as a shock to me
my eyes need to be bleached
I don't get it but from what I understand it's supposed to be a joke so I'll like it anyway!
A possible reason why people aren't looking for Dess is because the disappearance happened a long time ago.
Everyone else probably assumes she's dead, but Noelle can't accept this and keeps searching.
exactly
It's implied that she disappeared while Noelle was still a pretty little kid because of the spelling bee scene
I thought the exact same, it looks more as something that happened a long time ago that let a wound in everyone.
Either that or they think Dess just ran away and regardless of if she's alive or not understand they can't do anything
FLINT MOMENT
There’s a couple things regarding papyrus I feel are important to bring up.
One, it’s entirely possible the knight is being led on. Manipulated, if you will. At the end of the day, the knight piece is still a piece on the chess board to be moved. While this argument in theory works for most characters, I say it works well for papyrus specifically because we know papyrus has fallen prey to that before, (flowey)
Secondly, arguing that papyrus won’t be different from his depiction in undertale, I genuinely doubt for two main reasons.
One, in undertale, papyrus was out and about everywhere. A character who interacted with you post ruins more then any other character so long as you spare him. A character most of the major people in the underground know, because he’s extremely outgoing. Where is papyrus in deltarune? Doing none of that. Papyrus has already gone against a lot of his major traits by the very fact he HASN’T appeared yet.
But secondly, and more recently, is the consideration that undertale and deltarune papyrus, may be the same character at different points in time. Case in point? The summer papyrus interview last question, mentioning he lived somehow with lots of green grass before Sans (so rudely) ended the question before we could get more lore. This implies (though is not confirmed) that papyrus and sans could have come from deltarune, which if it is the case. The fact papyrus wouldn’t be the same makes sense, because this would be (for him) in his past.
Not saying papyrus is 100% the knight, but I think he’s more likely then you claim.
He may have changed after the events of Deltarune.
one could say the knight is,,, a pawn ?
Even if he's not the Knight, I'm convinced he'll have some major story relevance, perhaps he is even being set up as a red herring. After all, while people are so focused on the Knight being Papyrus, it could distract from who the Knight REALLY is (Alvin? Idk).
Either way I don't think Papyrus should be written off as a Knight just because of how he acts in Undertale, especially since, as you said, he's got different circumstances here in Deltarune.
I think this is all very very interesting, and honestly at this point I'm just so ready for chapters 3-5, even if I don't think they'll be coming out till next year, at the earliest.
Here is some evidence for the knight papyrus theory, in the alarm clock dialogue, when sans falls asleep, papyrus says that the dream sans is having is his gift, the dark worlds are very dreamlike, but this could be too similar to queen
Yeah
Also, one evidence ya missed for Gerson is that evidence of him/his presence has been in the immediate vicinity of every dark fountain revealed so far (The abandoned classroom has a drawing of him, drawn by his son, Alvin, the Library features one of his books, The lord of the Hammers, this newest fountain, in the Dreemurr household th bookshelf in the hallway has another of his books, The history of Humans and Monsters)
I love how you can see Spamton in the corner of the Knight Candidates image… he obviously isn’t the knight but there’s something funny about imagining the grand reveal of the Knight in the coming chapters, only for this big and menacing character to actually be [Every1’s f4vorite [[Number1ratedsalesman1997]]
So in Spamton NEO fight he was only seeing how powerful the lancer fan club and preparing for the worst
😅
If something bad does happen in dark worlds at night like Seam teased then wouldn't we see that something in chapter 3 since it was nighttime when the fountain was created?
Yeah, that's the one thing that I decided not to bother talking about. Technically this could still happen. Maybe, IDK, the Chapter 3 DW has spooky glitch-areas or something. Alternatively it could have more to do with how bright it is, hence why Kris turned on the TV, to avoid a "darker dark world". But yeah, you're right. It'd pretty much have to be shown in Chapter 3.
Didn't describe chapter 3 as more frivolous? It would be weird calling it something like that while droping something so important as the concept of darker worlds. This could also be toby trolling, like the ciber city.
@@salt.io257 Yes he did say it would be more frivolous and less story based
@@salt.io257i mean, it'd make sense considering he's releasing three chapters at once. he can experience with a less story focused chapter, while not disappointing the fans story-wise since he can focus on it more in the other two. i definitely wouldn't be opposed to that, but like you said, Toby could easily be trolling
always is a possibility that 2 chapters may take place in the same dark world, there isn't anything preventing that from being true, it's just a possibility. Does it mean it's likely? Maybe, maybe not. Does it mean that's it's impossible? Absolutely not.
"Alphys didn't have access to the library"
I wonder who the "Anonymous Yellow Lizard" is then
I think they meant timeline wise not that it’s impossible for her to get into the library.
It's anonymous how would I know 🤔
Asriel
Her evil twin Balphys
monster kid
Papyrus imprisoning the kings would still be in-character for him. He wanted to be part of the Royal guard in Undertale and captures Frisk even when they do nothing wrong. If he ended up in the dark world with crazy powers I’m sure he’d try to imprison who he thought were evildoers.
yea and theyre in motherfuckin balloon cages, quite goofeh if you ask me
Yeah, Papyrus would easily imprisoned a bunch of king if he thought they were evil
But would he imprison three kings and leave the worst one to rule?
@@luluzin5022 complicated question, but my best answer is that you dont always get the right impression of a person when you first meet them. Its not far fetched that king may have appeared more ritheous at the time and papyrus never got to see his dark side.
I dont necessarily assume that king lied to him either, especially as he seemed to hold the knight in high esteem. but he probably gave a very one sided perspective of the situation and papyrus would have just believed it as fact.
I will concede through that this does mean that the knight was either ill intended or a poor judge of character which require a few more assumptions than we originally made.
I thought the spade king or chaos king or whatever imprisoned them
Remember how Toby clarified that this one drawing in the abandoned classroom is of Gerson in the Anniversary Live Stream? It's odd the Dark World, that in Chapter 1 was almost entirely based on physical objects didn't have a turtle-based Darkner! Maybe it's just meant to signify the Boom family's connection to ... something in the plot of Deltarune
I 100% agree, it's too weird that it's come up so many times. Plus, in the old classroom, there's a picture of Gerson on the cabinet which would become the castle in the dark world, right at the top- almost like someone wanted to put him in charge, give him a fantasy to live out.
Considering Alvin was a teacher at the school, it’s not that surprising to see it there. Though, the text does say it was signed “Alvin”, and the paper was yellowed with age.
Not sure why it wasn’t a darkner though, but other stuff like the clocks also didn’t become darkners either.
@@lukematzner7996 I think the clock turned into the timing puzzle in the blue areas right before you get to Seam's shop.
@@lukematzner7996 It's Alvin's drawing of Gerson.
@@MoRPho151ms. Boom could be Alvin's sister, since I think it's stated that Gerson started writing stories to entertain his kidS plural
35:11 I feel like showing the Knight that way wouldn't necessarily give away their identity, since what if they look completely different in the Dark and Light worlds
Yeah that's a great point. I also made the claim in my Kris Knight video that maybe we wouldn't actually see the Knight, but see a vague outline in front of a bright light or something. There's a bunch of ways it could have happened, TBH.
there's also the possibility that the knight would be in full armor and/or in shadow/darkness obscuring said identity.
Personally, I still believe in Knight Papyrus, even if my belief in it has waned over time.
It mainly has to do with his interests, interactions, and capabilities we've known he has.
I've discussed this elsewhere, but let me lay out some groundwork:
In Deltarune, there is a possibility that the Knight might not've spoken to any of the Darkners, or even directly interacted with them. After all, we never hear of their actions around the Darkners himselves, or at the very least, those who talk of the Knight never speak of their interactions with them. So, it's possible that the reason they call them the Knight is based entirely on appearence.
In Undertale, Papyrus is infatuated with joining the Royal Guard, many of which are dressed in near-full-body armor. Undyne and the RGs even wear helms that _mask their appearence,_ though Undyne's entire set seems to not match her true body type at all.
Not only that, but if Queen's skylights and "Determined Enough" story is anything to go by, perhaps the human-like hand has some significance? I don't imagine most monsters share the same hand shapes or finger count as Humans, so perhaps Papyrus was fairly accurate about his theory of humans decending from skeletons... Or, it's the other way around, perhaps...?
Anyway, back to the Royal Guard kit. Queen also mentions a thrusting of a blade into the earth, and also depicts a blade in the sky creating the fountain. Again, many of the Royal Guards wield straight blades, whether they be swords or daggers. In particular, Doggo's knives match well with both Queen's depiction, and Kris' own personal knife they use to create their home fountain.
Nearly all of Undertale's characters have returned so far. They have similar interests and hobbies, just in different situations. What's to stop the same with Papyrus, even if his situation would be far more drastic...?
...Oh, one more thing.
The Knight is also specifically called the "Roaring" Knight.
Now, perhaps this is from the noise that is created when a new fountain rings out, it's sound echoing like a high-pitched Roar... But, perhaps this is instead a case of _manipulation?_
Papyrus himself is prone to being decieved. He often describes his brother as helpless without him, but he's actually one of the most capable monsters in the entire underground, capable of holding his own against a player's unstoppable murdur spree, even if doesn't give a lot else his all. Undyne admits how Papyrus' actually really tough, but tries to teach him to cook instead of real training because she sees him as "too nice" for the guard he desperately wants to be a part of.
And then, there's Flowey, again.
Though Flowey deceives everyone, he had a particular interest in Papyrus, particularly because he realized how capable he was, and how gullible. He tells Papyrus all the things he wants to hear, all the things he should do to get all the friends he could make, and he does it, _efficiently._ Under Flowey's direction, Alphys would be sent home to self-reflect, he would call you and send you right there behind her, and then, he would call nearly everyone else, and everyone would be in the right place at _just_ the right time. He might've even had Papyrus insist on Undyne writting that love letter. It was "his" idea, after all.
So perhaps this is another case of manipulation, even if it's not Flowey again. Not just of people being told that he's "the Roaring Knight," but why he's making all these Dark Worlds. He's been told about how to make all these _wonderful_ friends, about how to make the world _oh so better_ for everyone... But _not_ about the Roaring. _About the consequences that would follow._
...Honestly, I also hold on to this theory because I'm desperate to meet our Boy, and it often feels like the only answer for such a _prolonged_ absence feels like it would be something _dramatic..._
Still, though, I do believe this theory has some solid ground to stand on.
1:01 I choose to believe “let’s disgust” was intentional, knowing that people believe strongly about the identity of the knight
damn im stealing that line
I don’t get it
@@kx7500 "disgust" being a pun off of "discussed"
Glad to see more Knight Alvin discussion! I think another interesting possibility is that there could be multiple knights, a combination of some of these possibilities. Also, I think Asgore's removal could've just been because Dess disappeared/ran off/whatever - and he just took the fall because it was "under his watch." It says he was removed, too, implying this was done by the Mayor (Carol?) who is Dess's mother and has been shown to be unforgiving.
YES this makes so much sense!
I like to imagine that Noelle's mother is named "Christmas", because why not, it's not like subtlety was their thing anyway.
@@CantusTropus i think it's Carol
@@CantusTropus he nicknamed kris krismas which would become very awkward if that was also the name of his wife.
@@blackbloom8552nono, you see, Kris is his wife
So hear me out
There is no singular knight, and it’s a meta-textual symbol for truthseeking. There isn’t one singular absolute truth, even though so many people think there is.
The dark fountains are either a natural phenomenon, or, more likely, the different fountains are made by different people. This could explain Kris making the Ch3 Dark Fountain.
I definitely feel as if Gerson opened that original “pure” dark fountain. The prerequisites for opening a dark fountain are so far just “pour your will into a blade and strike down” which parallels extremely well with-well-a pen to paper, writing a story you’re extremely passionate about.
the image of gerson sitting in a supply closet writing down a story with so much passion that he accidentally stabs the paper so hard that a dark fountain forms is hilarious too
@@DWal32 Did you just accidentally solve Deltarune with that joke comment?! Holy shit.
Gerson stabs his paper, a dark world based on his story is formed, he falls into his story, he lives out an adventure inside of his story, and after he comes back to the light world, he incorporates his dark world adventures into his published stories.
And the whole dark world ordeal is a family secret, which Father Alvin is in on, and that's what the graveyard hammer monologue is about. FA wants to use Gerson's hammer to experience dark worlds for himself, either for religious, or sentimental purposes. He could be trying to use the dark worlds as vessels for getting to the Angel's Heaven.
Did we just solve Deltarune together, random RUclips person? Holy shit.
@@DogDogGodFog it's entirely possible, but it's making the assumption that Gerson was INCREDIBLY passionate about writing stories, to the point that he wanted them to be real. I guess the old city in the original castle town in chapter 1 could have been related to Gerson...
@@DWal32 No I mean, like you said. He ACCIDENTALLY created a dark fountain.
perhapsitively
“No character is an established liar…”
What about Alphys?
Hiding something because she felt it would ruin her relationship with everyone else in Undertale? i mean yeah that could apply to her being the knight but WHY AND HOW WOULD SHE EVEN BE THE KNIGHT?! She'd be putting her students in danger and risking everything for NO CLEAR REWARD. She would never want to start the Roaring!
Technically Papyrus also tries lying to you once, but he's very bad at it.
@@jutpaanimations7458 I know this is a joke, but maybe it's an "Anime is real" case. Or could. After all, there's still a case in which someone could create a once-in-a-lifetime fountain without being the knight. Maybe as an experiment rather than any other motive? But also, we would need SOMEONE to tell Alphys about dark worlds...
Let's see, Flowey, Chara, Alphys, Mettaton, the player, Toriel, Asgore, etc have all been known to lie.
Flowey, who literally lies the moment you see him
While this would be pretty trollish of Toby, I like the idea that the Knight doesn't want to cause the Roaring, or even call themselves the Roaring Knight, and that they got that nickname because they're literally just a very loud, shouty person. I didn't even mean this to support Papyrus Knight, but it kind of would, wouldn't it?
That supports Undyne wierdly enough 💀
I think a much better argument against the idea of the Knight knowing what the Roaring is is that "The Roaring Knight" could just be a title given to someone after they open a fountain, since opening a fountain increases the risk of the Roaring taking place. People getting titles for doing something specific is not a new concept in this game, after all.
About the town giving up on searching for Dess, I think another possibility is actually that they just gave up. All of this seemed to happen when Noelle was still in Preschool or something, after a while people do move on from something like this
Actually, the Knight and papyrus bwing un clóset is a reference of them being GAY (GAYster?!?!) /j
I have a theory that I don't really believe in, but it's an interesting thought. What if, The Knight is not a single person, but several people? Hear me out.
This would settle for none of the lightners having concrete evidence, making each Dark World was not made to cause The Roaring, but for specific reasons of each one that opened.
Of course, that would raise a lot of questions, and it would likely involve some outside influence that manipulated this to happen (Perhaps Gaster?). Just a thought I had
So you're saying ...like, that- The Knight is,,, like,,, the f- the frien-...like, -tthe Friends we made along the way?
This could be done by characters we didn't see before the fountain opened.
Chess theory is obviously not canon per se, but there ARE multiple Knights in a game of chess, even if we're only considering one side. There being a second Knight would be thematically appropriate, if nothing else.
@@CantusTropus If there's multiple bosses in chapter 3 and 4 then I'm all in on chess theory and there being 2 knights.
@@LizzymunFRIEND INSIDE ME
note: Deltarune so far has only listed _blades_ as being able to open Dark Worlds, not all weapons.
I mean, queen wanted that Noelle open a dark world with A pin ( she mentions that after defeat the gang in her final battle)
It's actually funny think about that
Imagine Noelle creating a dark world with something like a pin
[@@gonerdenji], HAVEN'T YOU HEARD ABOUT THE [Ring] OF [Thorns]?
hey @@gonerdenji after I replied I remembered that Queen didn't even know what _the roaring_ was.
HOLD ON. HOLD ON. I'm really starting to believe into the Alvin Knight theory a lot.
Not only that, but look at the places where the Knight opened Dark Worlds.
The first Dark World was opened in the unused classroom where GERSON used to teach.
And the second Dark World was opened in the Library where we suppose Ms. Boom (aka. ALVIN'S MOTHER) works since Berdly says he has a shift with her at the end of Chapter 2 and at the end of Chapter 1 we can see him work at the Library (he probably works here everyday after school)
Basically the Dark Worlds opened by the Knight thus far all seem to have ties to Alvin's family. I feel like it's a pretty good argument for Alvin Knight.
WHOA I DIDNT EVEN REALIZE THAT! It keeps looking more and more likely...
@@spookydood5500 Yeah it's really likely. Now I'm almost 100% sure that it's Alvin. Maybe that he wants to meet the Angel he worships. After all, the Roaring is tied to the Angel's Heaven.
Damn, that does sound very likely. Would also explain why Toby said that Chapter 3 is not that story relevant, because Kris opened that dark world, which has nothing to do with Gerson. But honestly, I'm really not sure if Toby would make it that easy to figure out or if he really is just doing it on purpose to throw us off. Given the Roaring Knight is such a big charachter. Unless he himself is only a Pawn to someone else. Which would make sense given the whole "Chess Theory"
@@c4ke_rs I wouldn't call this possibility "easy to figure out" ^^' I mean it's been 2 years since Chapter 2 is out and this is the first time I've heard this argument (I did come up with it after all ^^')
VGFM's theory elaborates on this! The unused classroom actually has a drawing of Gerson, confirmed to be by Alvin! (Also I always thought Ms. Boom was his sister but it could be either I suppose).
The knight is gaster wanting all of the gay teens to make more gay friends
Get gaystered
The Knight could appear in an animated intro without revealing his identity. He's a knight after all, he's probably going to be fully armored when we first meet him.
The Knight actually has an 'it' pronoun, which is kinda weird. Maybe it's some sort of animal, or non-sapient creature.
@@DogDogGodFog Not really that weird at all in these games. Most of the monsters in Undertale who aren't main characters are "it"s, and if I remember correctly a few darkners also use "it". If anything maybe it's evidence that the Knight is a monster, or maybe they're just called an "it" since that's what darkners use for unknown people.
Fire editing. May be your best video yet. I wish I could edit for you, because it would look really good on my College Application, but you clearly don't need me, it's amazing what you've done!
I wonder if we'll ever get a "book" themed dark world tied with Gerson
Sounds like one of those "I got Isekaied into a book" stories
@@CantusTropus I was in fact thinking about something like that Fairly Oddparents episode where timmy goes inside a book
@@CantusTropusDeltarune is already an isekai.
The game does spend a lot of time talking about his lord of the hammer book series. That would most likely be a great place to take a future chapter, especially if father Alvin is involved.
@@DogDogGodFogI don't remember Kris getting hit by a car (other than the annoying dog 💀)
I want Asgore to be the knight so he has something interesting to do other than be sad she took the kids
Another thing to add with the Gerson/Alvin stuff... The first dark world is in Gerson's old classroom with a picture Alvin drew. The first dark world seems to be much older than when we first arrived. With Jevil saying 'the other 100 years' and King talking about being abandoned by their lightners, which indicates it has been some time. Who is the oldest known character in Undertale? The only one aside from the immortal boss monsters to remember the first war with the humans? Gerson. A turtle/tortoise, very long living animals. Of course he would be around for 100 years.
Then you add in the motives of Alvin, a priest who worships the Angel's heaven. Gerson is also tied to the delta rune itself in Undertale, along with the prophecy itself. Alvin a new character directly tied to such an important Undertale AND Deltarune character, as well as his father Gerson being dead UNLIKE in Undertale...
Also, not only is the text that correlates to Toby important... But the message on the bench in the graveyard is important as well. Gerson says all of his best ideas come from dreams. Dreams are huge. It's the reason why this game exists in the first place. It's the entire theme of Yume Nikki, a huge inspiration for this game and Toby himself. Down to gaster's design itself. Who is to say that Gerson isn't a parallel?
To me, all of this isn't a red herring. It's Chekhov's gun.
It's no question for me. Alvin is the knight.
THANK YOU.
PLOTTWIST: THERE ARE MULTIPLE KNIGHTS?! 😱
you mention Dess a lot, but I feel like what happened to her is just really not clear enough. at one point, Noelle says "Gosh, you’re lucky Dess isn’t here! Otherwise YOU’D be facedown in a mousepile!” which would be very strange of her to say about someone who's deceased or has tragically gone missing. that sounds like something you say about a person who's just gone temporarily. but in that case, I also have no idea what could have happened to make Noelle shut down when December is namedropped if she isn't gone forever. I really don't know what to think.
My thoughts exactly. If the game didn't have "Find Her" plastered all over I'd believe she's probably just at college. The game's super weird with how it talks about her.
it’s worth noting Noelle has a tendency to ‘black out’ things she doesn’t want to remember, as seen in the weird route. It’s clear she turns to denial as a coping mechanism, so in casual conversation it makes sense that she would act as if Dess is just away at college
@@gingersnaps1fan252 she has trauma and that's how she cope with it, ralsei is doing this for her bc it's asriel
Something I haven't yet seen in discussions about the Knight is fully taking into account the degree of satisfaction in the identity of the Knight. A character like Father Alvin has a lot going for him, sure, but if you picture playing through all of Deltarune and you find that it is Alvin who is the Knight, would you feel satisfied? Characters like Dess, Gaster, Kris and perhaps Papyrus, etc, I personally feel would offer a level of satisfaction to the general player than an NPC who is possible to never have to interact with when playing through either chapter.
Think about how you don't have to go to the Church or graveyard at the end of a Chapter to encounter Alvin. I could play through the game and technically miss Alvin.
Suddenly out of nowhere an NPC I forgot to interact with is now the main antagonist?
How Alvin is currently presented and positioned in the game does not feel to me like he can truly be the Knight, unless he takes a far more unavoidable position in future chapters.
I'd also not quite write off Sans completely as a candidate either. Gaster connection, his lab in Undertale, ability to teleport, possible Papyrus related motives, etc. Nothing strong, but something at least.
Thanks for the shout out for my Alvin Tumblr post! I think this is the first time I've seen a theory vid reference it.
15:45
You’re forgetting that if he _were_ to cross the barrier and kill 7 humans, the humans likely would’ve killed all the monsters instead of just imprisoning them again
Still, that's the in-universe logic. It's not something he's justifying, it's something Toriel herself said.
And besides, the murders don't have to be known. After crossing the barrier Asgore could sneak into a retirement home, or find a group of hikers, or something
Toriel's point is that Asgore was cowardly. He deliberately prolonged his people's suffering by dragging his feet, hoping vainly that he would never have to actually step up and kill another child. I think she would've respected him if he had simply accepted the fate of monsters and refused to kill any children. It's because he chose to kill, but then didn't even have the guts to make it quick and minimise the pain, that Toriel is disgusted by him. He chose the worst of both worlds, at least in her eyes.
That wouldn't have worked. Once Asgore had a single soul, he would've been very hard to stop without a large and immediate response. Once he had seven, he would have been nigh-omnipotent, and could have done anything he liked up to and including destroying humanity.
If he did it in some remote unknown location, it wouldn't have to be noticed.
Also, literal centuries have passed since the imprisonment of monsterkind. Humans may have forgotten magic by now (due to the advance of technology outcompeting magic).
if father alvin turns out to be the knight we're solving deltarune once and for all as a critique of christianity = one giant fictional thingamajig that wants to consume the world. most religions came out of "little stories meant to educate" and. well you know what happened. idk thats just my reading as a religion nerd + seeing how much toby's religious upbringing has affected him. thats more speculative but mb the were you proud of me line could feed into that as him deeming himself not as imaginative/capable as his father in a storyteller role so he took up preaching instead. hello
If Queen didn't know what the roaring was, why would she call them the Roaring knight? I think it's because they called themselves that, maybe as they opened the fountain.
I think it’s Asgore and I have a theory to explain his past.
Asgore used to be the chief of police for the town and was highly respected. His family and the holiday family were really close, especially Asriel and Dess. Like most teenagers do, one night the two sneak off to be alone. Due to how small the town is, they sneak into the old bunker south of town. We know the Bunker is connected to Gaster via the sound effects and something happens down there that sends them into the Dark World. Asgore soon after investigates the bunker, either due to looking for his son or someone reported people messing with the bunker to the police and Asgore is responding to the call.
Something horrific happens down there and Asgore barely escapes with his son, but something isn’t right about him. Asgore tries to get his other officers to help him save Dess, but when they investigate the bunker, the fountain has closed and Dess is nowhere to be found. The entire situation puts Asgore is a horrible light. A child has disappeared and the chief of police is telling a crazy story about a “dark world filled with horrific creatures”. He is disgraced, but there isn’t any evidence that he did anything to Dess so he isn’t arrested, but is basically forced to resign. Some people in the town such as Mrs Holiday and Toriel believe he was involved with Dess’s disappearance and want him to stop making up stories, but he continues to proclaim what he said was true.
Despite being disgraced, Asgore still sees protecting the citizens of the town as his responsibility. He finds a way to reopen the bunker’s dark world, but can’t find Dess anywhere. Reluctantly he knows he needs to open portals elsewhere to look for her. He goes to her old classroom first because it had been abandoned by the school for awhile, but she wasn’t there. He remembers her and Asriel used to hang out in the computer lab, so he cuts all internet connection to the town and opens one up in the Computer Lab, figuring nobody would enter if there wasn’t any Wi-Fi. He just wants to find and rescue Dess, but he doesn’t want to harm anyone so he only opens portals in areas he believes nobody will go to.
As for the Asriel thing I mentioned earlier. I believe this event caused part of his soul to be trapped in the Dark World. That’s Ralsei looks like Asriel and is clearly different from the other Darkners since he can survive in other Dark Worlds.
I hope this all made sense and remember it’s just a theory… A GAME THEORY! Thanks for reading.
my biggest problem with Asgore Knight is that it seems like a very similar but less interesting version of a different candidate: Mayor Holiday Knight. In both cases, the Knight is opening dark worlds because they're searching for Dess and want to bring her home. It's a dangerous thing they're doing, but they think it's worth the risk to get her back. In the Asgore version, he's trying to fix a mistake and maybe-probably get his wife back (who probably wouldn't appreciate the shenanigans he had to get up to for this to happen). In the Carol version, she's trying to bring back her lost daughter. You can say a lot about Carol's quality as a mother after chapter 2, but it's clear she cares about her children. I think that's a more compelling motive for action this extreme. There's also the fact that Carol is a new character to Deltarune, and directly tied to the other Holidays who seem like they'll be very plot-relevant. With how little narrative focus the returning Undertale characters have gotten so far, that puts her in a better position for the role than an Asgore reprisal. The only main character Asgore has direct ties to is Kris who... isn't much for dramatic dialogues and emotional moments.
@@android19willpwn While we haven’t seen the Undertale characters play much of a role in Deltarune, we’ve only had 2 chapters and I’m pretty sure Toriel and maybe Undyne are going to play a role in Chapter 3. Toriel is in the room when Kris makes the dark fountain and Toriel had just called Undyne to the house earlier, so she might get pulled into the dark world as well. Even if Toby wants to focus on new characters, I feel like Asgore would be a perfect exception to this. Out of all the “main” characters, he gets the least amount of screen time and character interactions due to being at the very end of the game. He’s such a good character and Deltarune can be the perfect opportunity to give him the screen time he deserves. It can also be a perfect time to symbolic explain his reasoning for his actions in Undertale, since he would be doing something similar in Deltarune, he is doing something horrific in order to save people he’s responsible for. Give us a chance to see why Asgore would be willing to murder children to save all of monsterkind.
I doubt that it’s the Mayor. The knight is such a big mystery that is going to probably stretch the entire game, so I doubt it’s going to be revealed to be a character we haven’t actually met by now. Chapter 1 was basically just a demo/introduction, so it kinda make sense we might not see the knight, but they should have at least appeared by Chapter 2. I doubt Toby would throw a mystery at the players, knowing there would be a massive gap between releases (remember he was planning on releasing Chapter 3-7 all at once) and not even include the culprit.
I think Asgore is still the biggest suspect. Something BIG happened in the past that ruined his reputation, career, and marriage, but wasn’t bad enough to send him to jail. I think my theory is one of the only really plausible situations. A kid goes missing and the only adult with them start ranting and raving about a magical other world. The police never find any evidence of a crime so he isn’t arrested, but the entire town believes he did something to Dess. This causes him to resign, Toriel to devoice him and despise him, and for the entire town to lose all respect for him, besides his best friend.
@@1.21jiggawatts2 I find it funny that in the same comment you say "Asgore should get more time in the spotlight since he didn't appear until the very end of Undertale despite being a primary antagonist" and "Mayor Holiday isn't going to be a primary antagonist because she hasn't appeared yet in Deltarune." Your personal opinions are clear, but empirically Toby is very willing to have the ostensibly main antagonist only exist in reference before ultimately appearing on-screen shortly before you fight them. I fully expect that the Knight will not be the final antagonist of the game, and as I said before the Asgore runback just seems really unlikely for that role.
As for Toriel being part of the chapter 3 dark world, yeah, she's probably going to be a significant part of chapter 3. I wouldn't be surprised if Asgore was a significant supporting character in chapter 4 or 5. They're important to Kris and their history will likely be explored in that context. However, with Susie being the second main character and Noelle/Dess being positioned as an important running plotline, I don't expect them to have roles significantly beyond that. Asgore will probably be around when The Incident that happened to Dess is revealed, but that will probably be as much plot as he's allowed to bear. I also expect that we'll get the Dess reveal in two waves. One will be from the outside perspective (likely Asgore's) regarding the day she vanished, then later we'll find out what really happened to her and where she ended up.
Finally, with regards to your specific theory there's one big problem with it: the town doesn't hate Asgore. General opinion on him seems fairly positive, Toriel excluded. I'm sure he took the fall for Dess's disappearance because he could have handled the situation better (i.e. actually found her) and perhaps things happened due to legitimate negligence on his part, but the narrative that he actively caused her disappearance doesn't at all line up with how the public talk about him.
Really nice dive into the possible Knight candidates! Out of the returning UT cast I still think Papyrus is the best candidate story and motives wise, and out of the new characters Alvin and Noelle's Mom are definitely the most convincing we've seen thus far.
I also appreciate the mention of "Darker than Dark" tying into literal darkness in the Light World, as Dark fountains seem to just be, well, fountains of shadow, they make a room dark enough for a dark world to form, like the inverse of a lightbulb making a room bright enough to be in the Light world. Its all very, very interesting and I look forwards to seeing how Toby handles such complex and spooky mechanics within the Deltarune universe!
I think Asgore is the Knight:
* The closet in the computer lab can hold a "very large person." Asgore is the biggest guy in town.
* The Knight is said to use a dagger to open Dark Fountains. The worn dagger from Undertale is "perfect for cutting plants and vines." Asgore is a gardener, and Flower King contains a set of double doors for a Dark World.
* So far, Asgore is found everywhere that you can place one of Gaster's eggs. EGG translates to ☜︎☝︎☝︎in wingdings, which is the movement of the knight on a chess board.
* Asgore wears battle armor for his fight in Undertale. He could wear this armor in the Dark World as well.
As for his motives, Asgore could be creating Dark Worlds to search for Dess, since she seems to have vanished off the face of the earth. It would also match up with his role as an antagonist in Undertale, as a kind person doing bad things for a perceived greater good.
I agree 100%. Asgore and Papyrus are my personal two favorite canidates, though Asgore seems more likely.
Love the video, looking forward to more! Though I don't believe it, here's a counterpoint in favor of Papyrus Knight: 6:33 he literally attacks and imprisons Frisk in UT, and implies he was going easy on you in an aborted Merciless run, as he's glad he didn't have to use a special attack to "blast" you. Imagine what he'd do if he got to live his RPG fantasy in a fake world, and actually fight a "villain." He'd be like Berdly at the start of Chapter 2, to the extreme.
Yeah, its not hard to imagine papyrus listening to king story and decide to fight for the darkners because he think they are the good guys.
@@blackbloom8552 Totally! It would actually be pretty in-character for him.
I may be a real Kris Knight truther at heart, but I'm willing to given Alvin and Mayor Holiday a fair shake after this.
Their narrative presence and lack of other good options do help them a good lot, but they provide some interesting potential each, and we dont know enough of their character to write them off like almost everyone else.
But idk it still feels weird to me narrative wise to just casually have a dark world not made by the Knight, aka chapter 3's.
Guess we'll find out for sure as soon as chapter 3 drops whether the darkners talk of the Knight making the TV world.
hai hai a couple things
0. First of all, all my rants here have a big "MAYBE" and "POSSIBLY" and "Hey I'm just kinda speaking in 'this is totally an option' and I don't actually have any strong opinion on whether or not what I'm saying is actually the case"
1. I think the knight as a whole could possibly be a red herring- which means the possibility that the knight is also not so knowledgeable about what the roaring actually is wouldn't result in a disappointing main antagonist, since the true villain would actually be someone else. (And to stop being vague, yes, I'm talking about Gaster. It's one of the ways to somehow tie Gaster into the main plot)
1.5. Also totally real possibility that there is something funky with Asriel's prophecy and information. He could be lying, saying half-truths, or he could be wrong, who knows where he got that info from! What I'm trying to say is:
-It's totally possible the knight is not exactly aware of what the roaring is
-It's totally possible we don't have entirely correct information about the roaring
(You did kinda touch on this at the end but not specifically about the roaring)
2. I don't think it's that unusual for the people of hometown to not really think about Dess anymore. She presumably went missing a while ago, likely many years ago, and while I'm sure people were thinking about her a lot especially earlier on in a small town like hometown.... People move on, especially those who weren't very close to Dess, while a missing person is certainly a big deal, it's logical that if years passed after the person went missing, people would eventually just.. stop thinking about it? Because, yknow, life. Though, I do like how the running away theory ties into Noelle searching Dess' name up often, since it does make a lot more sense if she assumed Dess ran away, but either option can still work.
Anyways, final thoughts on who I think and/or want to be the knight
I'm like...70% sure it's Alvin at this point of the game. It may seem minor, but the Spamton communion thing just feels so specific. Also- about the hammer thing- the knight has been specifically pointed out to carry a blade, so I'm not sure about the hammer being a big hint... In fact, I'd argue it's a bit weird? Like it's a bit of an argument against him? Not sure if that seems nitpicky, but blade imagery specifically has been tied to the knight so far- so I'm hesitant on including any and all weapons
Anyways, I want Kris knight. Kris knight my beloved. I love Kris knight. If Kris knight has a million fans, then I am one of them. if Kris knight has 10 fans, then I am one of them. If Kris knight has one fan, then that person is me. If Kris knight has no fans, then that means I do not exist. If the world is against Kris knight, then I am against the world. Amen.
...anyways
It'd very difficult for me to determine the possibility of Kris being the knight. I feel like it's more of a "either they are or they aren't" situation
I dunno about Alphys being so easy to rule out.
You want evidence, I got it. None of this is definitive, but there are enough loose ends that Alphys is actually super suspicious - I at least think there are major aspects to her, as in Undertale, that we are not privvy towards. Here's my evidence:
- Alphys is the one who directly sends Kris and Susie to the Dark World, ignoring Noelle twice in order to pair Susie and Kris specifically and send them to get chalk.
- You notably never actually get her chalk. So if she went to the closet afterwards - because she apparently needs this - would she not discover the Dark World? Strange.
- On the other hand, the door to the closet shuts behind you and if you return after Chapter 1's dark world it will be locked. The only person who can do that would probably be a staff member, of which only Toriel and Alphys (And possibly a janitor or something) exist. This is light evidence; that may have just locked on it's own or something
- Alphys can later be seen lying to Toriel about you doing fine, and does not inform Toriel that you outright disappeared in Chapter 1. That is odd behavior for a teacher, even one as seemingly desperate for approval as her. What is especially notable is that she does not contact Toriel even if you never speak to her in chapter 1's post-game - Even though she has special dialogue in Chapter 2 expressing shocked relief you are okay, and talking about how worried she was. This would make more sense if she knew you had gone to a Dark World, and could not say anything about it.
- Both Dark Worlds are within walking distance of her classroom. Both Dark Worlds are visited by a pair of Alphys' students grouped together for the school project. Both Dark Worlds are in places Alphys has been known to frequent or have access to in a non-suspicious way.
- Tangential and speculative: The Librarby Dark World was used by Noelle and Berdly. This is notable - Berdly is known to work there, and Noelle frequents there rather than study at home (Where she seems to feel uncomfortable.) The two are also the two top students and would work on their projects even on the friday of a long weekend, unlike most other students in her class. It is not without holes, but it seems very likely that Noelle and Berdly would be the only ones studying that day - And Alphys would know this
- Alphys seems to have kind of a sad life in Deltarune; she has no companions to the point that she pretends to have a cat, she appears to find it difficult to stand up to even her own students, is so desperate for approval that she pretends to be a teen leaving reviews in the librarby, and she even gets called out for yaoi fanart on her computer. If anyone was interested in a world of magic, it would be her.
- A few events happen which seem to be deliberate call-backs to Undertale, such as her again mistaking Undine's gift as a confession of love from the player character. This is notable given what kind of a person she was in Undertale, and the kind of things she got into - see below
- As mentioned in this video, it was specifically Alphys who make Mettaton's body - And so Spamton inhabits that body here. Except it actually goes deeper than that: She has an association with phones, and in her chapter attempts to guide you along her set path by calling you and telling you what to do. She upgrades your phone to Shoot Mode in order to fight Mettaton, which is brought back in the Spamton fight. She just overall has a strong connection there.
- In Undertale, Alphys is someone who is willing to lie to others for her own benefit - albeit living that way has taken a toll upon her. Since we see her lie on multiple occasions in Deltarune, (She lies to Toriel in the optional hallway scene, she changes the subject when talking about Asgore when she gets flustered and plays it off like it was about comics the entire time, she covers for you when you skip class, etc) this trait seems to be carried over. This erodes a lot of seeming contradictions in what she says vs what she may do, and in fact any contradictions become within what we expect from her past character
- Alphys inherited a lot of Gaster's work and iterated upon it in Undertale. The most notable example are the Determination Experiments, which were guided by her and resulted in her being the underground's foremost expert on Determination. In Deltarune, Determination does not stop death (as far as we know) but rather creates a Dark Fountain. In Deltarune, the game was initially released and is presented in-game as an experiment by what is presumably Gaster. So the question is - Does Alphys still mirror like that? Does she still have that connection to Gaster and to being a scientist specialized in the study of Determination? That's an unknown at the moment - but do note that you first find her in an alleyway, stuffed full of flowers, feeding an unseen pet, and with an Everyman graffitied on the wall in an apparent allusion to the True Lab.
- Speculative: Some of the things Alphys says seems unusual if you look through the text with the idea that she may be the knight. Why does she crash her bike? Why does she consider the police to be eye-candy and unable to solve real crimes? She does she seem so shocked when you say you went to the Librarby and met with Noelle and Berdly? If you notice, when she gets flustered she is demonstrated to switch to a more tangential but related topic - When you bring up Alphys, she blatantly wonders if he likes her - But, unable to keep it together saying that, switches the conversation to be about comics. Is she doing the same by making her questions about meeting with Noelle and Berdly about the Teenz'own?
And yeah. That does leave the gap in time when she opened the Librarby Dark World up for question - but if she really invested into the study of Determination, that shouldn't be a real issue eitther
I don't think the knight candidate being in a L-shape from the school and library is a valid reason to show who the knight is just because many buildings (whether it be the lightners' home or place of work) can be an L-shape from the school and library. For example: Asgore's home, the church, toriel's home, QC's diner, Holiday's home, and more
Kris opened the library dark world at the end of chapter 1 and at the end of chapter 2 kris opened a dark world on his house (I know kris may have opened other dark world in the end of chpt 1 but we don't know so it is easy to asume it is the library dark world)
I don't know if you will see this comment or not, but I have audio processing disorder, and I try my best to push through some days, but it is really exhausting and sometimes I have to skip videos because it hurts my head too much to do that without captions :S I know there are other members of the deltarune/undertale fandom who are disabled (such as those who are Deaf, have audio processing issues, other symptoms that make it hard to focus, etc) who similarly would love to watch your videos with captions so they don't miss out on anything too! Would it be at all possible for you to add captions to the videos, so that more can access your vids? That would mean a lot to me. Anyway, thank you for creating fun things during the wait for the next chapters! I hope more people get to enjoy your work! Take care! :)
There is also that theory about gerson. That his actual favorite object was a plush. Specifically seam. And so his ashe were secretly spread over this plush by Alvin.
Because let's face it. Seam is really strange as a character.
I want Knight Dess to be true so bad because I think it would be sick as fuck
So the knight could be a powerful darkner that stole the soul of a lightner? It’s probably not Ralsei... right? They are a more powerful darkner, and DO resemble a lightner, but the motive DEFINITELY doesn’t make sense.
I just realized something. Did Toby Fox say chapter 3 was going to be much more focused on "fun" or that it wasn't going to be as plot heavy or was going to be more whimsical? Because "fun" could mean like fun value, meaning if chapter 3 is "mostly for fun" we might get so close to gaster lore we can practically smell the wingdings mystery man. Like a chapter dedicated to fun value events where gaster is slapping us in the face with the hints like never before. I don't put it passed toby to have basically dropped that chapter 3 hint on us and no one notice.
I actually agree with one thing
I think some people usually forget that DELTARUNE is a story and obviously it have a narrative, meanwhile I'm not Kris knight fan i see them as a knight actually interesting narratively speaking
We don't why are they doing that, making us feel tense when we and Kris are alone at the end of the chapters
They are doing that because they are a bad person or they have understandable reason?(this are questions you can make if you are a casual player)
(Personally, I'm biggest hater of Kris or the Knight being irredeemably evil)
Kris knight remind me to omni Man for some reason
The Tolkien-Gersion connection is not a coincidence. It's way too specific, I was thinking of that exact thing before you brought it up. Though it's ultimately likely meant to be a reference, rather than anything tying back to the story.
Wow, this video is really thorough and logical. Almost don't really have anything to say because of how much I agree.
Although, I don't think the Knight could be C. Holiday, because of how busy she is, having a side job as the Knight as well as the mayor would be pretty overkill for her.
Off topic but, yeah, If Rudy wasn't sick, he'd honestly be EXTREMELY interesting as the Knight.
I don't think its a coincidence that the book is called Lord of the hammer I think its just a reference!
Knight or not, the fact that Gerson went from writing history to writing fiction seems to heavily imply that he had experience with - or at least knowledge of - the Dark Worlds. It could be possible that he didn't switch to writing fiction, but continued to write actual history.
If Gerson and Father Alvin are both tied to the Knight, I wonder if Alvin is following his footsteps. Asking whether it's right to continue to create dark fountains. This is a wild, wild stretch, but it kinda makes me think Gerson may have been a factor in a previous Roaring.
Small aside about Mayor Holiday's name - I like Clarice as an option, though my first thought was Carol
Gerson had adventures, real ones, in Dark Worlds.
And used those adventures to write stories that everyone else thought was fiction.
_But then the player started controlling Kris._ 😮
Alvin noticed the signs, but hasn't gotten involved yet.
Still thinking about those old stories.
Still unsure if he _should_ get involved.
By the way, what do you think about the possibility of more than 7 chapters? Sprites for a chapter 8, 9, 10 and a chapter "0" were datamined.
Great video! It's always interesting to hear what other people have to say about the knight.
Something interesting you can do with your thoughts on Dess towards the end of the video, about how people think she ran away is combine them with how Asgore may have been involved with her disappearance. As I see it you can do this in two ways:
1. Dess came to Asgore, perhaps looking for life advice regarding her strict mother, and Asgore said something along the lines of "Follow your heart!" and not long after this conversation Dess went missing, and Toriel and Mayor Holiday blamed him for indirectly encouraging her to run away.
or
2. Asgore made the official statement that Dess ran away, which both Toriel and Mayor Holiday very much disagreed with.
Both options explain why Toriel and the Mayor would dislike Asgore, while most of the town is fine with him, however I'd say that the second option is a little more likely, as it involves less speculation, and Asgore being the one to make the call on what officially happened to Dess makes sense given he was the Police Chief. It would also directly explain why the Mayor fired Asgore since it's specifically related to his duties.
Just a heads up youtube didnt recommend me this in my video list despite being subscribed could you maybe put it also as community poste in case me and others do not get it recommended
Thanks for the heads up! Will do!
I like how you can see Woody in the corner of the crowd sometimes. Really funny easter egg, knowing one of your past theories
(3:04)
(13:55)
What if the knight are batter from the game OFF?!?!?!
/j
This town is about to be… purified! :P
While I do like the theory that something bad happens when you open/are in a dark world at night I feel like this won’t be the case. Considering that Kris opened a dark world at night at the end of chapter 2, this would mean that we will find out this dark secret the next time we get a chapter, while this alone doesn’t debunk it, Toby’s quote saying that chapter 3 will be more of a fun adventure at least appears to poke a hole in it. My only answer to seam’s cryptic dialogue that invokes your hypothesis that something strange happens is that it’s not the time of day that changes it but how long a lightner spends in one
Alvin Knight isn’t a bad idea, I just worry that it isn’t up-front enough for casual players to notice it the the Knight ends up being revealed. I hope that means in upcoming chapters we’ll get some interaction with him to he confirm/deny these theories, as if he stays at his current level of relevance the twist may not land for a lot of the audience.
I have a similar feeling for Papyrus Knight; while he does have Undertale plot relevance, he’s a nonentity in Deltarune. Yes Deltarune heavily relies on the assumption that you, the player, have already played Undertale, but I don’t think that extends to needing Undertale for the main antagonist reveal to be worthwhile!
Part of it is I feel that, whoever the Knight is, some modicum of trust being broken is required for the reveal to be worthwhile. Papyrus has no relation to any of the main cast, so him being the Knight feels like ‘oh… well okay’, with Alvin garnering a similar, if more familiar level of confusion. Part of why I like Kris being the Knight is that it provides that intense level of dramatic irony I want from the reveal, and it reinforces the narrative point of ‘Kris’ and ‘the player’ being at odds while functionally sharing the same body.
9:57
No. I refuse to simply follow you to saying Papyrus is the same as he was in Undertale without any evidence because the game makes it pretty clear that he isn't. Paps in Deltarune is already shown to be noticeably more reclusive than he was in UT, and that's the one and only thing we know about DR Paps, if all we know is a difference how could you assume they're the same?
14:42 i don't think asgore killed Dess, but rather, didn't _save_ or didn't take good care of Dess when he had the chance to
Maybe asgore accidentally lost dess in a dark fountain, which let to toriel divorcing him, him getting kicked out of the police, trying to hide the fact he lost a child of his friend by being nice to everybody, not earning any money.
You also see that asgore, even when being at an all time low, not having a stable home and also not being able to pay rent for his own shop, he's still not doing anything, at least we don't see him do anything
Which is why i think he's opening the dark fountains, to find Dess, restore his marriage with toriel, and make his friend happy once again
I think it would make sense for somebody from the dreemurr family, because we saw kris opening one dark fountain (that might not mean they're the dark knight, but rather, that they learned how to open the fountains, you know, by watching somebone else do it)
You know it’s a good day when SpookyDood uploads
whoever said there had to be one Night
Kris can be written off because of the timing of the library dark world's opening. He couldn't have been the one to open it as it was open WHILE Berdly and Noelle were studying. Either Kris isn't the knight, or someone other than the knight opened the library dark world.
How would berdly and noelle not notice the fountain being opened?
If kris is the knight, he could have worn a disguise to make sure no one recognised him, or he has an accomplice.
Ralsei is the accomplice
We have no proof that the knight was the one who attacked the kings and imprisoned them btw
Great theory video spoken dude you really are great at making videos
Bro come from future but based
tbh the reason i don't believe kris is the knight, is not because of the evidence or anything
is just because if kris actually is the knight, it would be way too anticlimatic
“No classmates are the knight.”
Idk man, are we *sure* it’s not Berdly? He’s a bird, and bird is a noun and knight is also a noun.
You keep saying that the Papyrus we know wouldn't do that, but that's exactly it, we DON'T know this papyrus at all. He's not the same as the one in undertale.
The characters in deltarune are different from their undertake counterparts, but not in a way that make them completely different characters. The are roughly the same but living different lives which account for much of the differences in their personality and desires. Papyrus could be more depressed since hes more isolated than ever, but i dont think he would be evil or even mean. He was already feeling lonely nad unnapreciated in udnertale and we saw that he copes with those feeling by being very loud and boastful.
The idea that the town thinks Dess ran away is one i haven't heard of, but i really like it! That could add a nice emotional moment when Noelle finds out that her sister didn't choose to leave her
Idk if Alvin is that important, he doesn’t have a typeface
Undyne doesn't at first
Undyne doesn't at first
Something abou Toriel-knight, perhaps she is doing it for Kris. After whatever her motivations are she opens up the unused classroom fountain, and then that day kris tells her about how they had fun with a friend and alphas tells her that they missed class, she puts it together and opens up the computer lab classroom so they can have another adventure. It’s weak, but there IS a possible motivation for toriel that makes sense as a character.
The knight is a 3 elixir common troop that you get in beginning of the game along with other cards.
Does this imply the existence of a Mega Knight in Deltarune
@@patcangyYes,it does so is the Golden knight.
I personally think that The "Roaring Knight" is a concept and that multiple "Knights" pull off their deeds. This is mainly because of Queen wanting to turn Noelle into her peon, Berdly almost just completely naturally opening up a dark fountain with his halberd, and Kris opening up the dark world at the end of Chapter 2
If not that Oberonsmog feels the most intriguing to me personally so i mainly go to that one when talking about a specific Knight
The knight being an undertale character is such a boring idea
These are my thoughts on a good knight candidate:
1. Must be at least part lightener. Ralsei himself is still somewhat undefined as far as lightener/darkener stuff, but Queen states that only lighteners can make dark fountains.
2. Must be respected by dark world leaders. King dosent respect anyone BUT the knight, so he probably believes they are somewhat "out of his league" and much more powerful. Queen also admires the knight and bases her actions off of their judgement.
3. Most likely a "Large" person. In the computer lab, interacting with the door reads "A large person could fit inside" meaning that the knight probably went in there at least to hide after making the fountain.
4. Must have means, motive, and opportunity. I think Kris isn't the knight because Queen states that the fountain was created "Today," not last night, so if Kris sneaks off to the computer lab in the middle of the night after chapter 1 to make the fountain, then Queen would have to be somehow mistaken. The knight must also be somewhat determined, weild a sharp, piercing blade, and have arms as well as at least 4 fingers.
Looking at means, this basically eliminates Monster kid, Snowy, Temmie, and Alphys are eliminated.
Kris, Susie, Noelle and Berdly are also out because of opportunity.
Anyone else is up as far as motive, and anyone who i havent mentioned to not be the knight could be the knight.
I feel any theory implicating a character that existed in Undertale is just wishful fan thinking, it seems pretty clear that the core story of Deltarune is going to involve almost exclusively new characters, while the Undertale characters are mostly just to fill space and provide familiarity 🤷
Also as likely as Alvin being the knight is, Queen did say that the knight used a blade to create that dark world.
Plus if night time is of any significance in dark worlds, we would for sure see that in the next chapter in Kris's house due to it chapter 2 ending at night.
I'm a firm believer in Alvin Knight, for the following reasons:
1. New character: the characters of Undertale play more minor roles in Deltarune, whereas the more important characters are made specifically for the game (Noelle, Berdly, Susie). Alvin is one of these characters. If Deltarune was conceived before Undertale, it makes sense Toby would have come up with an antagonist character beforehand.
2. Potential motive: the Roaring is supposed to bring the "Angel's Heaven". Who would want this to happen other than someone that literally workships the Angel and would interpret its arrival as a good thing?
3. Odd behavior: Things like the graveyard scene implies there's more to Alvin that meets the eye, like his relationship with Gerson. Also we see a drawing from him in the unused classroom, already linking him to a dark world.
It's true we known little about Father Alvin right now, but he stands out as an original character with intrigue surrounding him, a connection to the Angel, and some foreshadowing. I think Alvin is more likely than anyone from Undertale
Overall hes a plausible knight candidate, but i think his motive would be more complicated than just his religion.
First, we probably shouldn`t assume he`s a fanatic just because he`s a pastor. From the few interactions he had so far, he seems rather chill about his religion. Id even say that what we have seen of his inner hangups seem to rather be related to his relationship with his late father. I also just dont really see how religious fanatism would connect to the themes of the game. Through i could see a later chapter addressing religion as a form of escapism and he would be a very relevant character for that.
@@blackbloom8552 Fanatism is just a potential motive, but there's also the posibility that the religion interprets the Roaring as something completely different. Either way, Alvin is the only character with any connected to the angel.
Problem with Alvin being the knight: Queen specially says that the knight stabbed the earth with their blade, and hammers aren't exactly known for being blades. Plus the background clearly depicts a knife. That line certainly is interesting and will absolutely be important later, but it's probably not referencing the knight.
With a regular hammer, the back side of it that’s used for pulling out nails is pretty sharp. I assume if a hammer would be used you’d just hold it like if you were gonna take out a nail.
@@patcangy Except the type of hammer they're referring to is a battle hammer, which doesn't have that. You can even see on Gerson's gravestone that it clearly depicts a hammer without the sharp end on the back. Besides, I still wouldn't exactly describe the sharp end on the back of hammer as a blade (though I guess I can see an argument for it), and Queen still very clearly depicts a knife.
One thing rarely brought up in Knight discussions that I think is worth mentioning is that if Chess Theory holds true, then we should expect the Knight to behave in a manner somewhat similar to its chess piece, as this has been the case with both the King and with Queen so far. Much like his chess piece, the King barely moved during Chapter 1 and relied on his minions to do all the work for him, only taking action in self-defense once the party finally reached him. In contrast, Queen lived up to her chess piece's extreme mobility by being highly proactive and repeatedly getting in the party's way.
So we should expect something similar when it comes to the Knight. This is only really discussed in this video with the fact that if Papyrus were the Knight, his movements so far would roughly match those of the chess piece. But as you explained, this is a stretch and one could make a similar argument for many other characters.
But what about the fact that knight in chess specializes in relatively slow, yet unconventional moves that nobody else is capable of? Does that not describe Kris' nightly activities pretty well? They don't move very fast in this state and temporarily separating themself from their soul certainly is a highly unconventional move that we wouldn't expect anyone else to ever pull.
I do like this take more, interpreting the move set of a piece as more symbolic than literal. One of the main pieces of evidence against Kris knight is the unconventional behavior - why start a fountain when you just watched someone make you manipulate a childhood friend into murder?
So if the weird behavior is part of Kris’ character, at least for me it makes sense.
@@patcangy Yeah, it is indeed strange that the Weird Route doesn't change anything about Chapter 2's ending.
We don't know for sure how Kris feels about the Weird Route, but given the fact that something about them seems off to Susie when we reunite with her and Ralsei as well as the fact that Noelle Tea implies that Kris has a reasonably positive opinion of Noelle, it seems likely that they didn't expect us to pull something like this and don't approve of it.
But then why does this change nothing whatsoever about their actions at the end? If it's become clear to Kris that we're abusing our control over them to make them do terrible things they never intended, why create a new fountain and potentially give us new opportunities to mess things up? Regardless of whether or not Kris is the Knight, this is weird. I can only think of four possibilities:
#1: Kris is confident that we won't be able to pull a similar stunt in Chapter 3's Dark World, perhaps due to the absence of Noelle.
#2: The creation of Chapter 3's Dark World is so important to Kris that they're willing to do it even if it assists us in our own scheme.
#3: In the Weird Route, Kris actually creates Chapter 3's Dark World with a different vision in mind in order to thwart our plans. (Unlikely, as there is absolutely no hint of any differences involving its creation. Plus, making the Weird Route's version of this world fundamentally different would take the developers a lot of work.)
#4: Kris' nightly activities are actually the work of a third entity taking control over their body. That entity doesn't care at all what we do in the Weird Route.
Everyone: Trying to inspect and determine who is secretly the knight and their intentions.
Me who wants the knight to be it's own character._.
I've always had the theory that the Knight isn't just one person in the same sense as how Kris, Susie, and Ralsei are the human, monster, and prince of the dark as mentioned in the prophecy, or how Noelle seems to be the similarly titled Angel.
My idea ties the Knight into the "freedom" motif of Deltarune by suggesting that they, like US, the player, have the power to control characters within the world of Deltarune and make them do things they might not otherwise do.
I also believe we have seen this shown on screen, AND referenced by certain events outside the primary story to back it up. I believe we are fighting this entity for control over Kris, and the end of chapter scenes we've gotten are instances of this taking place.
Yes, that's right, I don't think this is KRIS fighting us for control, but a separate third entity entirely. I have a few reasons for this:
1) We know thanks to the Spamton Sweepstakes that Kris is noted for having particularly notable instances of acting weirder than usual. These situations can involve seemingly normal things like playing pianpian.mp3, but also insane and even creepy interactions, like scaring off Susie and knowing Noelle was hiding in a locker nearby.
2) Kris is aware of the prophecy, and also seems to be on good (or at least not BAD) terms with Ralsei, as in the sequences where Ralsei convinces us to leave Kris' body, we notice that the two of them wete seemingly having a conversation. But, if Kris knows the prophecy, and isn't themself a malicious actor, then why would they create a dark fountain? Seems off for sure.
3) The goner maker at the start of the game is abruptly interrupted at the end by some third entity who is NOT the first person (who most and myself presume to be Gaster). This is clear by the fonts and manner of speaking. But the important part is what they tell us, and what they do. It is made very clear that we cannot choose who we are in this world. We have been given the vessel of Kris to control, it isn't a choice. But wait- we're THE PLAYER. We should have ALL the choice. Who in the story could possibly have more control than US? With the firsy two points factored in, it starts to become a little more clear.
4) Toby us very obviously conflating- or more accurately, confusing- the ideas of Freedom and Control in Deltarune. And I don't mean confusing to him, but to the characters in the story, and of course, us. Both of the secret bosses we now know of do not understand the difference between these two ideas. Jevil believes that he is the only free one, and everyone else is locked in a cell, and Spamton believes that the only way to become free is to have Kris' soul. But we know that the soul is NOT Kris', but in fact OURS, and is what gives us control over this Kris. But the secret bosses have been confused into believing that freedom is entrapment and control is freedom, just as we have been led to believe when Kris removes our soul. See, we ASSUME that because Kris removes the soul, it MUST be Kris becoming free of thr control of others, but it may very well be just the opposite.
And finally, 5) The narrator in Deltarune seems to attempt to take control in some instances, telling us only the information it allows us to know, and restricting access to unnecessary interactions when it doesn't want us to. The most notable example of this to me is the bathroom in Kris' house. In chapter 1 you are given the opportunity to interact with stuff in the bathroom, such as flushing the toilet or looking at the shampoos in the shower. But, when we enter this room at the end of Chapter 2, interacting with ANYTHING except for the sink will simply say "There's no use" or something like that. Now, that wouldn't be too substantial if it weren't for the fact that AFTER using the sink and watching Kris go out and slash the tires, the dialogue for the shower changes to what it used to say, commenting on the shampoo bottles. The toilet is still unusable, but the fact that ANY interactable description changed from before and after this cutscene took place shows that Toby put a non-zero amount of effort into showing that the narrator was trying to direct us towards the correct choice.
Okay, but what does all this mean in regards to the identity of the Knight? Well, I think the Knight IS this third entity. The reason it's so hard to identify them is because they simply haven't taken only one form. Maybe they WERE Papyrus for one fountain, and maybe they were Alphys for another, who's to say? The point is, this entity can likely control almost any person they want at any point, just as we show during the weird route that our soul can influence more than the actions of just Kris. As for why all the darkners seem to suggest that their world was created by the will of the Knight? Well, that will would not have come from the Lightners under the control of this other entity, obviously, they can't even CONTROL their own will.
I LOVE this theory, the idea of "third entity controlling Kris" is something I've also believed in for a long time. The idea of them controlling other characters and forcing them to open up the fountains is genius. I'm just wondering what the battle against the Knight will be like if they don't have a physical form.
@@kingofcrap4414 Well, it may not be that the Knight doesn't have a physical form, but rather that they simply can't GET to us to reveal that physical form. Perhaps it is a character trapped in the sort of void we saw in the goner maker? They're creating these worlds under the hope that somebody will then ALSO open up a Neo Dark World from within a regular one, starting the roaring. After all, they ARE called the Roaring Knight, and if they are truly trapped down there, this could be their means of escape. This could leave possible candidates for the identity of the Knight to be a titan perhaps?
Knight is Alvin bcs Stone Ocean reference
Gaster is Dio
@@gonerdenjiNah Gaster is Speedwagon. Noelle is Dio
28:00 I think this is because it happened long ago. In the spelling bee flashback they look significantly younger. We don't know how old the characters were/are but it is very likely that more than 5 years, maybe even more 10 years, have past since Des dissapeared. The town is not happy about it but with here being gone for that long they likely accepted that she is dead. Noelle believes she is still out their because she is shield, Des is her sister, Des and her Dad seem to be her only real friends up until the events of chapter 2 and because she is an optimist.
I only just figured this out so hear me out king 1st boss = asgore a king queen 2nd boss a robot = mettaton a robot so does that mean the 3rd boss is an aquatic creature ?
I’m just saying, if Father Alvin ends up as the Roaring Knight, I will actually pay someone to draw him with Father Pucci from JoJo. The whole “Doing bad in the name of good for others” type of thing is exactly what Pucci was doing in part 6, attempting to achieve heaven so that heaven could be “seen” by everyone else. And now, Father Alvin could possibly be attempting something similar of the sorts. I know for a fact I’m just grasping at straws, but… c’mon, it’d still be cool.
I feel like Kris is objectively not the Knight due to so much evidence against Kris being so.
Mostly character interactions and where Kris is when the Knight does its thing.
An example being how Spamton seems to have a strange admiration towards Kris, but a fear of the Knight.
This just makes me feel more strongly that it's Kris. I mean directly showing Kris open a fountain at the end of Ch2 is a pretty wild misdirect. I felt more like the mystery is _how_ and _why_ Kris is doing it since they're a very mysterious character despite being in the forefront
And you said as much right after I typed this
But how could Kris get all the way to the library in order to create the Chapter 2 Dark World? Queen stated that it was created "Today," and we've been controlling Kris pretty much the entire time. We would surely notice if they tried to go off and do something. Additionally, the Chapter One epilogue cutscene was also a misdirect.
@@kingofcrap4414 that could be as simple as Kris going to the library before we take control for the day. The Ch1 epilogue is a fakeout in one regard but it does demonstrate that Kris has their own will and intentions that we don't know about