@@merlinthebikewizard4392 of course lol 😆 I still want to try a 650 bike. I have 2 specialized diverges. One base model and one carbon compwith ultegra gearset 🤩
@@WalfredoCirne Interesting. I have a 40mm tire (which i would say its thin compared to whats considered gravel here) and man the lever you have on the breaks when you're in the drops is much better. Id argue i would be way slower on the hoods
People keep saying this but on gravel roads or double track, man the drops feel way sketchy to me. Maybe it's my bike fit? I just feel like in the drops my weight is pushed too far forward, over the front wheels, and it feels LESS stable to me when going over bumps.
I hear this drop thing very often and my isuue would be lack of skill. My fingers can not control brake well enough in drops. I'm good on tops or mtb, bit brake feel in drops is not good enough for me personally
I wonder why it's so important what it's called, and why mountainbikers are so bitter about it. But yeah, "90s MTB geometry-ish bike with drop bars and 1 or 2by and possibly but not necessarily carbon frame and components" is probably indeed catchier than "Gravel".
That describes the bike I use as my gravel bike! It's a 1996 Litespeed Obed FS (full suspension, 80mm travel front and rear) that I've loaded up with all new components, a custom frame bag and handlebar roll, and touring tires (right now at least, though sometimes I throw on my Conti Race Kings). It's truly the perfect all road bike.
To me it sounds like something like the Salsa Cutthroat(2020 has a new geo) or Kona Surtra LTD, which can do 29x2.3 tire or 650bx2.6 could be the perfect compromise. The larger tires could make decenting feel more stable.
To me a "gravel” bike shines on the dirt of terrain that would be a bit boring on a mountain bike, so like you say double track gravel roads and paved roads, I’ve got a lot of that sort of stuff right from my doorstep . Cheers!
Where I’m at in WIsconsin, when everything isn’t covered in snow and 8 below, the riding is a little too rugged for a traditional road bike, but over kill for a mountain bike. So... CX bike, Touring bike, or All Road bike are the best option. Of the three, I prefer the All Road bike.
Yeah, although the term Gravel Bike is now a thing, All Road Bike is a far better descriptor. Isn’t it funny how we humans feel such a pressing need to categorise things?
You raise some very good points here. The "gravel" we ride on varies greatly, even regionally in the area being ridden (and if a road grader has visited the area recently, it can either help, or create a whole new set of riding challenges). Also, there seems to be a sort of rider personality component to it---meaning simply: some people just don't enjoy gravel; it's too intimidating to them, and just scary. Understandable completely! It's no fun going down on gravel!! As for myself, before taking up the gravel bike phenomenon, I was doing some increasingly more technical single track mountain biking trails; so that when I did begin riding on dirt and gravel roads it didn't seem quite as intimidating to me. I'd already developed a certain level of 'terrain competence' and skill-set, that really made a huge difference to my psychological attitude when on such shifty, sketchy surfaces. That just takes time and experience to acquire, but some may simply not want to take the time to do that, and that's fine. Each to his (or her) own interests. Thanks for the video.
Yes, all-road is a perfect phrase for my riding. Where I live a road bike would be worthless because every road here will invariably have sections of broken down pavement, or I get rerouted to dirt double track or have to hop obstacles or whatever.
"All-road bike"? The first mountain bikes of the 80s looked very much like the current gravel bikes, before manufacturers started adding suspension in the front, suspension in the back, and whatnot. In French those bikes were called "velo tout terrain," which more or less translates as "all-road bike." We've officially come full circle.
@@richsantos4579 I don't know the answer to that question, but I believe the French still call all mountain bikes VTTs. So an "all-road bike" in French would be a different thing from what the author of this video calls an "all-road bike" in English.
You're off the mark big time about the comparison with modern gravel bikes. Those "velo tout terrain" were sluggish MTBs. Even the geometry is different, so adding a dropbar (or better: a full dropbar conversion, road Q-factor & all that) will still not get you the same machine as a modern purpose built gravel bike.
@@josephfarrugia2350 No, I'm not. They were basically road bikes with 26'' wheels and flat bars. They were sluggish because they had 26'' wheels and thick tyres (gravel bikes have thick tyres too, but they have larger wheels, although not that much larger if you're riding 650s).Then we got the horn attachments, then we got the front suspension, then the rear suspension and changes in geometry, the the dropper seatpost, and we got to the point where the original VTT was extinct, so we had to re-invent it.
Gravel bikes are great on actual gravel roads/mixed surface/broken pavement/etc. Unfortunately here in SoCal, most people ride gravel bikes in mountain bike terrain (and call it "gravel") since the bulk of the mountainous truck trails/fire roads/motorways cater to that segment, so gravel riders generally have the wrong tool for the job about 75% of the time. On the flipside of that, a full suspension mountain bike would be pretty boring to ride on a fairly tame gravel road.
Why aren’t there arguments over what a “mountain bike” is and is not? The vast majority surely aren’t used on mountains. Hills and dirt but definitely not mountains.
There was that argument early on. I forget who the various proponents of different names were but ATB (All Terrain Bicycle) and I think (MTB) multi terrain bicycle, were the competitor terms for what is now the "Mountain Bike". I'm sure someone has written a graduate thesis on this somewhere ;)
Definitely agree it should be called an all road bike over a gravel bike. Bike does very well on most roads, for myself more fun then a mountain bike. Mountain bikes in New England would require driving to trails, while gravel bike you don’t mind riding 5-7 miles to a trail and riding on dirt roads and non technical 1 by trails. I enjoy my mountain bike in harsh conditions but the gravel bike makes near by dirt roads and more boring 1 by trails more fun. And you can ride for a bunch more miles exploring and even still hop around on few little jumps/rocks with a very light bike. My gravel bike weighs in at 17 pounds in a size XL(61), about 10 pounds lighter then my mountain bike. I’ve kind of retired my road bike for my gravel bike and my mountain bike has become a planned use day trip bike.
Here in the UK we don't have miles of gravel fire roads. We do have alot of bridleways, off road routes open to bikes & horses. These tend to be far too light work for an MTB & tend to have paved roads elements to link them up. This makes ideal riding for a gravel/all road bike. In reality over here very few people live close to challenging MTB terrain and you pretty much have to drive to get to any sort MTB trail. Whilst I can jump on the Grav bike and away from traffic straight out of my front door. I would do that on a MTB because they suck on the road parts.
I put a pair of 32c touring tires on my flat bar gravel bike. It's the ultimate (sub)urban explorer. Don't need the drops since I spend most of my time riding no-handlebars. Takes me where I need to go and handles wooded trails like a dream.
I found some "gravel" yesterday (cycle path between Undy and Magor, for any UK viewers), and I was happy on my rigid steel flat-bar bike with 2-inch tyres.
Great discussion. My area in Wyoming is very similar to your Missoula except bigger stretches of badlands to Northern Plains. I really like the term “all road” . I just ordered my idea of an all road gravel touring bike, a Surly Bridge Club in the dirt road package. 1x12 with 27.5 . I am keeping the hard tail MTB for the primitive two track, ATV trails, and oilfield tracks.
I bought a 2020 Kona Sutra LTD at the start of this year and certainly place it in the all-road category. I ride road, gravel, singletrack, take it to the local mountain bike parks and off-road tour with it. I think you're correct in saying it depends on the type of riding you like to do. For me, I wanted a bike I could take everywhere but with priority to gravel and off-road touring. If I found more joy in bombing hills or launching off kickers, well I would buy a more appropriate to those tasks. Subsequently though, under-biking technical terrain has become one of my most favourite activities. The supple life is certainly for me!
Good vid! I love pushing my bikes over their imaginary boundaries. When exploring at times I ride my roadbike on gravel, and my gravelbike on singletrack, hiking paths or downhill segments. Challenging fun! Though admittedly the downhill sections are more stupid than fun...
If your heading into a strong headwind you’ll be really glad you can get in the drops for relief on a gravel bike and there way faster when you get rolling on smother sections and for sure on the road- just saying
Thanks, Russ- I feel like that really answered my question on the last ACN video. Do you talk more about gravel bc that's just how bikes & parts are being marketed, or...?
Great comments and balanced perspective of what a gravel bike is and what it’s not. With that, on some less developed rail trails and single tracks, I’ve been passed more than a couple of times by Specialized Diverge or Trek Checkpoints and the like, which piqued my curiosity. I guess if you like to ride fast and fun, mostly on pavement with freedom to ride on rougher chewed up pavement or the occasional dirt road a gravel bike makes sense. Depending on where you ride it could also be your only bike. I wonder though if go fast is not your primary concern as much as riding fun on one bike anywhere anytime I wonder how a fat bike or fat touring bike might be considered. I rarely find fat versus gravel comparisons though both types are often billed as, ‘if you only have one bike in your quiver...” I also look forward to your review of the Timberline Prospector. Soon?
I love my all road All City, but I got on some gravel with 1 1/2 inch stones and it soon became no fun. I much prefer crappy concrete and smooth single track to gravel with my Cosmic Stallion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Russ! I always enjoy seeing Montana.
I completely agree. They are a compromise. A good one if you plan or know the entire ride and give up a little for the overall ride pleasure. I always guess wrongly on the rides I don't know, and am suprised detrimentally on ones I do know or should have remembered better. Overall another fun tool in the cycling toolbox! Thanks for the reasonable information!
Not all of us can afford a different bike for every occasion. So given a choice, I would choose the hard-tail Mountain bike. I can ride all types of gravel, I can ride pavement, and I can ride single track. For me anyway, it's the 1 bike that is the most versatile. I've lead rides here in the Midwest on gravel country roads, and my buddies with "gravel" bikes were struggling. However, they shine on the pavement and nicely manicured crushed limestone trails. So it's collaborative effort. On pavement I suck wheel, and on gravel roads they suck my wheel, if they can keep up with my mountain bike :)
An all road bike is a much better description. Loose rocks and sand don't work on any type of bike in my opinion, however I handle it best on my gravel bike. My gravel bike has a front suspension so I ride it on single track that I would normally use a MTB for, I like it better but that is only because it is faster and more efficient. The other thing that I like about this type of bike is that it makes just about any type of terrain fun. This isn't true of every type of bike. Road bikes and MTBs are more specialized and therefore don't switch over to different types of terrain very well.
I would like to see you right the old 1940 and 50 bikes. I remember riding my mother's sit up and bag Fat tires heavy metal frame went anywhere. Should we look way back
I agree all road is better explanation for these bikes. Don't you think throwing some Jones bars on that baby would cause extreme climbing and descending pleasure?
It may not be sexy but what they call a hybrid today would be the bike for this situation, great going up esp. since they weigh they same as a gravel bike and have no suspension and are in a better riding position for downhill.
I live in the high desert so we have sand. So really a good sand bike sucks for anything else. I actually probly not gonna find a bike that will do it all
I have mixed emotions about purchasing a gravel bike. On one hand, I get it. I can take the gravel bike anywhere. But I can ride my XC hardtail anywhere also. So should I run 40's on my 29er? I have an old steel Haro Mary, with a 42-32-22 triple and a 9 speed 11-34 cassette, with an 80mm fork. It's fun on smooth single track, sketchy on technical stuff, and often my go-to bike on the paved path near me because that path is so rough, it often FEELS like you're off-road! The thing with gravel, it seems like some routes you'd be better off with a hard tail, some routes you would be better off with the road-style bike. I am not going to say I won't buy a gravel bike, but if you have an old XC hardtail laying around, maybe throw some fast-rolling tires on it, find those lightly used roads, and enjoy yourself.
@@PathLessPedaledTV I'm trying to NOT buy a sixth bicycle! Thanks for your input, and please keep producing high-quality content. I have just started venturing out into gravel, and the hard tail is working....for now.
I never really worry about what's "better", I focus on what's more "fun". I only enjoy riding MTB's on true singletrack. I enjoy riding Allroad bikes everywhere except for 100% paved rides (which, for me, are a thing of the past). My upcoming Allroad bike will have 29 x 2.35 tires as I love to throw some singletrack into an Allroad ride whenever possible . High volume tire offerings are getting so good these days you don't give up much in rolling resistance.
i enjoyed this content. thx. if you can swing a reply, my sense is that a main problem with gravel bikes for me (maybe others, depending on topology) is that when rougher road terrain gets steep the gearing is too high compared to ratios you can get on mountain bikes. seems like 1:1 is a targeted ballpark at the low end. are there gravel bikes that offer a granny gear experience?
Mine's a 94 rigid Marin pine mountain with deore XT. Having flat handlebars saved me from crashes on commutes. Emergency "on a dime" stopping is my priority over speed because the roads are narrow where I live. You're basically riding on a couple of hand-spans of road, trying not to get doored or driven into. So for that, drops would just not give me time to switch to safe weight distribution and save my ass.
Love 'em, but still it's so different than modern capable gravel/all-road bikes. I have a project brimming with an old rigid MTB to dropbar gravel bike conversion, but I'm not kidding myself that it's anywhere near the purpose built real deal. Even the geometry is different.
Question: Why is there no discussion of changing tire pressure for changing road->trail surface? I run Schwalbe Land Cruiser 700x40c on IW 19mm wheels. For road & smooth hardpack, I pressure up (60 psi) ; for sketchier double & single track, I deflate to match surface conditions. It's a bit of trouble to re-inflate for the road, but my overall ride enjoyment is greater (including adapting gear appropriate to conditions) For certain the 4 wheel off-roaders deflate/inflate tire to match track conditions.
Because there are literally an infinite amount of things to talk about and not one video will make everyone happy. I do address that in multiple tire pressure videos just not this one.
I don't know how many people on here have YT channels, or can post videos, or if we can do it in the new Discord platform, but it would be a really great project to aggregate a series of "what gravel (all road) is to me" videos for people in different places. I am in upstate NY, with hardpack red silty/loam roads, rough decades old asphalt, and a bunch of seasonal non-maintained connectors that can get wild...but I still ride on a stable substrate 75% of the time. I would love to see/share what everyone else is experiencing in their gravel life.
Gravel bikes are not endurance bikes. You are getting too heady. It’s a 700C bike that’s all. I own two Ridely X-Night SLs - it’s a fantastic gravel bike and a fantastic road bike. The aggressive handling is fantastic for navigating dirt, gravel, pave etc The issue with your video is that if you ride roads/path that have various terrain then of course there will be sections that a MTN bike will excel and others where a 700C will Like you said, it’s where you ride and how you ride - turns out Lance was right, it’s not about the bike :)
I don’t have a geo chart handy, but a lot of the current gravel bikes remind me of the “hybrid” bikes of 1990, like those Bianchi had. 700x40 semi-slicks (as big as I could find back then), slacker but just enough to get a reasonable trail figure, a bit springier than the mtb. I kinda wish I had that bike back, as it was fabulous on rails to trails routes, and fun on streets.
All-road is a great umbrella for a type of riding, that can be a bit of a run what you brung situation. For us non curly bar riders it gets a bit confusing though, I definitely don't fit in with the 6 inch plastic fantastic mtb crowd, and I'm too rowdy to be a roadie. I heard dangerholm talk about BMXC (BMX + XC) I kinda dig that Idea. This is the beauty of the internet though, we can all have our lil niches, as long as we don't all get too pedantic. I mean some of us crazies are still talking about 26 inch tires hahah, the worlds big enough for all the bikes.
I got a nice Belgian cyclocross bike because there are several kilometers of dirt walking paths through the forest around our town's main park and I prefer drop handlebars to flat. With a little extra tire volume, I have a bike that goes on light dirt and grass without having to worry about damaging a carbon rim or a nice road tire on a road bike that costs more than a used honda.
I've been an advocate of calling them 'all-road' bikes for a long time. The current idea of a 'road' bike is more like a 'race' bike. Whatever happened to the term ATB? All terrain bike. That was bandied around for a while but MTB stuck. Monster Cross? Gnar-Mac?! It's mostly just semantics, but it does have an impact. The problem with trying to change it now is that 'gravel' has stuck in the consciousness of the general cycling public. Not adding 'gravel' to the title of videos, will probably alienate some people ("ANOTHER new category of bike?!?! It's marketing hype!") and mess with search algorithms. It's hard enough suggesting to my bike friends that maybe my personal bike is 'monster gravel'...
Great review of what an "all'road" bike can do. Those WTB Sendero's can tackle pretty much any terrain. I view my Fuji Jari gravel bike as my "all terrain" ride. Even though it is not as confident in true MTB terrain, if I happen to be out on a ride and single track becomes and option, I'll take it! Example: ruclips.net/video/3lXXCUqm6DI/видео.html
Some manufacturers are moving away from the term "gravel bike" and are labelling them as "all road bikes" now. I don't think the market for a dedicated gravel exists in large enough numbers when compared to the market for a road bike that can handle a bit of rough stuff occasionally
Dropbars & road geometry (vs MTB geometry & riding position) are so much better suited to versatile all-road riding, besides being way more comfortable on longer rides & not super-sluggish on the road/flat sections.
I use the Gravel bike for traveling on tarmac to get to the windfarms trails where almost wreck the bike at the speeds I am doing on the trails, then its back on the tarmac for getting back home
Thank you for the clarification. My 1990 Specialized Stump Jumper was my first gravel bike. A few more bikes later and now I'm a dedicated Fat Biker. I ride old forest and logging roads using my Gravity Bulls Eye equipt with panniers and all of the other asserories. I would love to see a review on the bikes. Maybe a video in the making?
Russ! You should do a review/episode on cycling gloves. There are so many choices out there, and, for shaky gravel riding, which chafes the palms, I’m wondering what kind you use and why?
Well.. like you said on ACN.. it’s based on racing. I believe the gravel category was conceived for gravel races/events. Then the industry evolved it toward touring/bikepacking
Yes! Thank you! Allroad or all purpose. In the motorcycle world you have street bikes, dirt bikes and in the middle is the dual purpose. Anything is better than gravel bike (there has been a lot push back and confusion (mainly from roadies) as a the result. In fact I see it every time I get the new issue of Roadbike Action, who, btw defend gravel biking and gravel bikes but I think they would have less of a battle if the term Allroad was used instead.). Please lead the alt name movement! Allroad Cycling Network!
I see some talk about the name MTB and while that as name is potentially a misnomer as well since they aren't necessarily made to ride mountains or only on mountain terrain those bikes were never meant for road use. They were made to go off road. Sure you can ride them on a road but that is not they are designed to do. As for a name change I say let the mtb community figure that one out.
Great vid Russ! I think for me, the bike with the least amount of compromise has been a rigid mtb (Ritchey Timberwolf), running XC tyres. You get all the benefits of mtb geometry on the descents, without the pedal bob (and associated loss of efficiency) of a hardtail on the climbs. After using an all road bike for a while, and finding descents just too sketchy, I made the switch to the rigid mtb and couldn’t be happier. That being said, from your videos and others, the term “gravel road” seems to have very different definition here in Australia! When I hear “gravel” I am thinking kilometres and kilometres of horrid corrugations...
I think that's really what a "gravel bike" is supposed to be. A bike that can gobble up long distances of very poor to non existent roads. Somewhere between a touring bike and a CX bike, it is meant for getting some real distance done. If you just want to blip around the woods then maybe a CX or MTB is still the better choice
Russ, if you wanted a lively bike (building up off a frameset) you could do some bikepacking with, yet run on the DK, would you choose a midnight special, gorilla monsoon, or something else? How would you feel about the Vaya for a DK bike? Thanks!
For me, I’d choose the Bombora or Ritchey Outback. Vaya would make a great DK bike. Sort of a proto-Warbird. You pay a little in weight but gain a lot in stability.
Russ, I found it interesting that at the moment you mentioned the descent beginning to feel sketchy, your hand position was on the hoods. I'll just throw in my two cents worth because I didn't see it happen, but I always descend in the drops for better stability and control.
100% agreed, the drop position for descending, for me, (and for pushing through headwind) is the biggest pro for just putting a drop bar on anything (I also ride "roads", not singletrack).
on the downhill decent i would have probably rode on the grassy patch over the rocks to be honest, seems to be abit more smooth. also maybe becasue i have 42mm's (more light gravel/pack forrest road tires), which might die faster on that particular decent
Sometimes you've got to ride what you have. Eventually you'll be able to adjust tire pressure on the fly. Shouldn't be too hard via Bluetooth and pump inside both rims. Will be a sad day when most aren't able to afford the next elitist bike.
All Road is a much better category for bikes than Gravel Bike.
Agree. But I might be bias since my bike name is Bianchi Impulso Allroad 😎
Yea if you like roads... you can't fit 40mm+ tires on a road bike
@@merlinthebikewizard4392 of course lol 😆 I still want to try a 650 bike. I have 2 specialized diverges. One base model and one carbon compwith ultegra gearset 🤩
Drop bars, dude! Use them! Descents are so much less sketchy in the drops, which is your complaint.
Not when its a test bike that is slightly too long and you haven't adjusted the stem length.
@@PathLessPedaledTV Oh, man! I find descents on the drops very scary. Much better control in the hood for me.
@@WalfredoCirne Interesting. I have a 40mm tire (which i would say its thin compared to whats considered gravel here) and man the lever you have on the breaks when you're in the drops is much better. Id argue i would be way slower on the hoods
People keep saying this but on gravel roads or double track, man the drops feel way sketchy to me. Maybe it's my bike fit?
I just feel like in the drops my weight is pushed too far forward, over the front wheels, and it feels LESS stable to me when going over bumps.
I hear this drop thing very often and my isuue would be lack of skill. My fingers can not control brake well enough in drops. I'm good on tops or mtb, bit brake feel in drops is not good enough for me personally
Your audio, video, and editing continue to improve (and they pretty swell already) and your content is as interesting as always. Carry on!
I wonder why it's so important what it's called, and why mountainbikers are so bitter about it. But yeah, "90s MTB geometry-ish bike with drop bars and 1 or 2by and possibly but not necessarily carbon frame and components" is probably indeed catchier than "Gravel".
Where can I sign the petition to rename it
Hardtail XC with 90s geometry is best “gravel bike”
That describes the bike I use as my gravel bike! It's a 1996 Litespeed Obed FS (full suspension, 80mm travel front and rear) that I've loaded up with all new components, a custom frame bag and handlebar roll, and touring tires (right now at least, though sometimes I throw on my Conti Race Kings). It's truly the perfect all road bike.
Evan Barnes with 26er wheels sets?
To me it sounds like something like the Salsa Cutthroat(2020 has a new geo) or Kona Surtra LTD, which can do 29x2.3 tire or 650bx2.6 could be the perfect compromise. The larger tires could make decenting feel more stable.
Now maybe the Surly Ghost Grappler too?
To me a "gravel” bike shines on the dirt of terrain that would be a bit boring on a mountain bike, so like you say double track gravel roads and paved roads, I’ve got a lot of that sort of stuff right from my doorstep . Cheers!
Where I’m at in WIsconsin, when everything isn’t covered in snow and 8 below, the riding is a little too rugged for a traditional road bike, but over kill for a mountain bike. So... CX bike, Touring bike, or All Road bike are the best option. Of the three, I prefer the All Road bike.
How do you deal with the sand roads over there? We have pretty solid gravel in Marathon and Lincoln counties. (I'm assuming ec=Eau Claire).
Another consideration with road vs gravel (all terrain) vs MTB is how important being comfortably aero to you is for the type of riding you’re doing.
Yeah, although the term Gravel Bike is now a thing, All Road Bike is a far better descriptor. Isn’t it funny how we humans feel such a pressing need to categorise things?
It’s how we make order out of primordial soup.
You raise some very good points here. The "gravel" we ride on varies greatly, even regionally in the area being ridden (and if a road grader has visited the area recently, it can either help, or create a whole new set of riding challenges). Also, there seems to be a sort of rider personality component to it---meaning simply: some people just don't enjoy gravel; it's too intimidating to them, and just scary. Understandable completely! It's no fun going down on gravel!! As for myself, before taking up the gravel bike phenomenon, I was doing some increasingly more technical single track mountain biking trails; so that when I did begin riding on dirt and gravel roads it didn't seem quite as intimidating to me. I'd already developed a certain level of 'terrain competence' and skill-set, that really made a huge difference to my psychological attitude when on such shifty, sketchy surfaces. That just takes time and experience to acquire, but some may simply not want to take the time to do that, and that's fine. Each to his (or her) own interests. Thanks for the video.
Great video Russ! I agree 100%! We should be calling them all-road bikes, not gravel bikes. Stay safe out there!
Yes, all-road is a perfect phrase for my riding. Where I live a road bike would be worthless because every road here will invariably have sections of broken down pavement, or I get rerouted to dirt double track or have to hop obstacles or whatever.
"All-road bike"? The first mountain bikes of the 80s looked very much like the current gravel bikes, before manufacturers started adding suspension in the front, suspension in the back, and whatnot. In French those bikes were called "velo tout terrain," which more or less translates as "all-road bike." We've officially come full circle.
I didn't know that great piece of French history. Weren't the first round of hardtail rigid 26ers also called "all terrain bikes" -ATBs?
@@richsantos4579 I don't know the answer to that question, but I believe the French still call all mountain bikes VTTs. So an "all-road bike" in French would be a different thing from what the author of this video calls an "all-road bike" in English.
Re-invent the wheel
You're off the mark big time about the comparison with modern gravel bikes.
Those "velo tout terrain" were sluggish MTBs.
Even the geometry is different, so adding a dropbar (or better: a full dropbar conversion, road Q-factor & all that) will still not get you the same machine as a modern purpose built gravel bike.
@@josephfarrugia2350 No, I'm not. They were basically road bikes with 26'' wheels and flat bars. They were sluggish because they had 26'' wheels and thick tyres (gravel bikes have thick tyres too, but they have larger wheels, although not that much larger if you're riding 650s).Then we got the horn attachments, then we got the front suspension, then the rear suspension and changes in geometry, the the dropper seatpost, and we got to the point where the original VTT was extinct, so we had to re-invent it.
Gravel bikes are great on actual gravel roads/mixed surface/broken pavement/etc. Unfortunately here in SoCal, most people ride gravel bikes in mountain bike terrain (and call it "gravel") since the bulk of the mountainous truck trails/fire roads/motorways cater to that segment, so gravel riders generally have the wrong tool for the job about 75% of the time. On the flipside of that, a full suspension mountain bike would be pretty boring to ride on a fairly tame gravel road.
Why aren’t there arguments over what a “mountain bike” is and is not? The vast majority surely aren’t used on mountains. Hills and dirt but definitely not mountains.
Because it’s a fairly established category. Gravel breaks peoples brains because they can’t figure out where it fits.
There was that argument early on. I forget who the various proponents of different names were but ATB (All Terrain Bicycle) and I think (MTB) multi terrain bicycle, were the competitor terms for what is now the "Mountain Bike". I'm sure someone has written a graduate thesis on this somewhere ;)
I dont know where you live but in Scotland we definitely use mountain bikes on mountains.
Definitely agree it should be called an all road bike over a gravel bike. Bike does very well on most roads, for myself more fun then a mountain bike. Mountain bikes in New England would require driving to trails, while gravel bike you don’t mind riding 5-7 miles to a trail and riding on dirt roads and non technical 1 by trails. I enjoy my mountain bike in harsh conditions but the gravel bike makes near by dirt roads and more boring 1 by trails more fun. And you can ride for a bunch more miles exploring and even still hop around on few little jumps/rocks with a very light bike. My gravel bike weighs in at 17 pounds in a size XL(61), about 10 pounds lighter then my mountain bike. I’ve kind of retired my road bike for my gravel bike and my mountain bike has become a planned use day trip bike.
Here in the UK we don't have miles of gravel fire roads. We do have alot of bridleways, off road routes open to bikes & horses. These tend to be far too light work for an MTB & tend to have paved roads elements to link them up. This makes ideal riding for a gravel/all road bike.
In reality over here very few people live close to challenging MTB terrain and you pretty much have to drive to get to any sort MTB trail. Whilst I can jump on the Grav bike and away from traffic straight out of my front door. I would do that on a MTB because they suck on the road parts.
I put a pair of 32c touring tires on my flat bar gravel bike. It's the ultimate (sub)urban explorer. Don't need the drops since I spend most of my time riding no-handlebars. Takes me where I need to go and handles wooded trails like a dream.
awesome! Once I rode gravel on 28c and it was awesome too!
I found some "gravel" yesterday (cycle path between Undy and Magor, for any UK viewers), and I was happy on my rigid steel flat-bar bike with 2-inch tyres.
As long we are not jumping $hit and appearing in the Friday Fails pinbike channel we are not closed to mountain bike riding. 😆
Great discussion. My area in Wyoming is very similar to your Missoula except bigger stretches of badlands to Northern Plains. I really like the term “all road” . I just ordered my idea of an all road gravel touring bike, a Surly Bridge Club in the dirt road package. 1x12 with 27.5 . I am keeping the hard tail MTB for the primitive two track, ATV trails, and oilfield tracks.
I bought a 2020 Kona Sutra LTD at the start of this year and certainly place it in the all-road category. I ride road, gravel, singletrack, take it to the local mountain bike parks and off-road tour with it. I think you're correct in saying it depends on the type of riding you like to do. For me, I wanted a bike I could take everywhere but with priority to gravel and off-road touring. If I found more joy in bombing hills or launching off kickers, well I would buy a more appropriate to those tasks. Subsequently though, under-biking technical terrain has become one of my most favourite activities. The supple life is certainly for me!
Good vid! I love pushing my bikes over their imaginary boundaries. When exploring at times I ride my roadbike on gravel, and my gravelbike on singletrack, hiking paths or downhill segments. Challenging fun! Though admittedly the downhill sections are more stupid than fun...
ugh, that mic is sooo good!! Can you link me to your podcast?
Doesn't it though! I really noticed.
If your heading into a strong headwind you’ll be really glad you can get in the drops for relief on a gravel bike and there way faster when you get rolling on smother sections and for sure on the road- just saying
Thanks, Russ- I feel like that really answered my question on the last ACN video.
Do you talk more about gravel bc that's just how bikes & parts are being marketed, or...?
Agreed, "all road" is a better description for gravel bikes.
Great comments and balanced perspective of what a gravel bike is and what it’s not. With that, on some less developed rail trails and single tracks, I’ve been passed more than a couple of times by Specialized Diverge or Trek Checkpoints and the like, which piqued my curiosity. I guess if you like to ride fast and fun, mostly on pavement with freedom to ride on rougher chewed up pavement or the occasional dirt road a gravel bike makes sense. Depending on where you ride it could also be your only bike. I wonder though if go fast is not your primary concern as much as riding fun on one bike anywhere anytime I wonder how a fat bike or fat touring bike might be considered. I rarely find fat versus gravel comparisons though both types are often billed as, ‘if you only have one bike in your quiver...” I also look forward to your review of the Timberline Prospector. Soon?
*Tumbleweed Prospector
Loose gravel on top of hard pack is sketchy on every kind of bike and tire. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a great setup for that condition.
cross-moto or trailbikes (motorcycle)
I love my all road All City, but I got on some gravel with 1 1/2 inch stones and it soon became no fun. I much prefer crappy concrete and smooth single track to gravel with my Cosmic Stallion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Russ! I always enjoy seeing Montana.
I completely agree. They are a compromise. A good one if you plan or know the entire ride and give up a little for the overall ride pleasure. I always guess wrongly on the rides I don't know, and am suprised detrimentally on ones I do know or should have remembered better. Overall another fun tool in the cycling toolbox! Thanks for the reasonable information!
Not all of us can afford a different bike for every occasion. So given a choice, I would choose the hard-tail Mountain bike. I can ride all types of gravel, I can ride pavement, and I can ride single track. For me anyway, it's the 1 bike that is the most versatile.
I've lead rides here in the Midwest on gravel country roads, and my buddies with "gravel" bikes were struggling. However, they shine on the pavement and nicely manicured crushed limestone trails.
So it's collaborative effort. On pavement I suck wheel, and on gravel roads they suck my wheel, if they can keep up with my mountain bike :)
An all road bike is a much better description. Loose rocks and sand don't work on any type of bike in my opinion, however I handle it best on my gravel bike. My gravel bike has a front suspension so I ride it on single track that I would normally use a MTB for, I like it better but that is only because it is faster and more efficient. The other thing that I like about this type of bike is that it makes just about any type of terrain fun. This isn't true of every type of bike. Road bikes and MTBs are more specialized and therefore don't switch over to different types of terrain very well.
I would like to see you right the old 1940 and 50 bikes. I remember riding my mother's sit up and bag Fat tires heavy metal frame went anywhere. Should we look way back
I agree all road is better explanation for these bikes. Don't you think throwing some Jones bars on that baby would cause extreme climbing and descending pleasure?
I'm really surprised you didn't try a rigid fork hardtail mountain bike.
Don't have one.
It may not be sexy but what they call a hybrid today would be the bike for this situation, great going up esp. since they weigh they same as a gravel bike and have no suspension and are in a better riding position for downhill.
I'm still waiting for a flatbar / bar end comeback ....like 1990's xc :)
On GCN I have seen some Gravel bikes with flat bars. Makes me happy I kept my Bridgestone MB1
Because, I am regularly compelled to jump a curb, or hill, or wheelieeeeeeeeeeeee, down the road/trail... I would be perpetually board on a GB.
I live in the high desert so we have sand. So really a good sand bike sucks for anything else. I actually probly not gonna find a bike that will do it all
Of course they are not any good. It's GRAVEL!!!
I have mixed emotions about purchasing a gravel bike. On one hand, I get it. I can take the gravel bike anywhere. But I can ride my XC hardtail anywhere also. So should I run 40's on my 29er? I have an old steel Haro Mary, with a 42-32-22 triple and a 9 speed 11-34 cassette, with an 80mm fork. It's fun on smooth single track, sketchy on technical stuff, and often my go-to bike on the paved path near me because that path is so rough, it often FEELS like you're off-road! The thing with gravel, it seems like some routes you'd be better off with a hard tail, some routes you would be better off with the road-style bike. I am not going to say I won't buy a gravel bike, but if you have an old XC hardtail laying around, maybe throw some fast-rolling tires on it, find those lightly used roads, and enjoy yourself.
I would rather have a gravel bike and a trail oriented mountain bike.
@@PathLessPedaledTV I'm trying to NOT buy a sixth bicycle! Thanks for your input, and please keep producing high-quality content. I have just started venturing out into gravel, and the hard tail is working....for now.
I never really worry about what's "better", I focus on what's more "fun". I only enjoy riding MTB's on true singletrack. I enjoy riding Allroad bikes everywhere except for 100% paved rides (which, for me, are a thing of the past). My upcoming Allroad bike will have 29 x 2.35 tires as I love to throw some singletrack into an Allroad ride whenever possible . High volume tire offerings are getting so good these days you don't give up much in rolling resistance.
I am getting a Salsa Fargo next.
@@haappycat Nice! I'm having a steel frameset made with Fargo tire clearance but closer to Warbird geometry.
Vintage, fully rigid mountain bike with a short stem and dirtdrops with their tops a good inch higher than the saddle, that’s where it is!
You invented the Salsa Fargo. I am getting one soon.
i enjoyed this content. thx. if you can swing a reply, my sense is that a main problem with gravel bikes for me (maybe others, depending on topology) is that when rougher road terrain gets steep the gearing is too high compared to ratios you can get on mountain bikes. seems like 1:1 is a targeted ballpark at the low end. are there gravel bikes that offer a granny gear experience?
90’s rigid MTB
I agree.
Mine's a 94 rigid Marin pine mountain with deore XT. Having flat handlebars saved me from crashes on commutes. Emergency "on a dime" stopping is my priority over speed because the roads are narrow where I live. You're basically riding on a couple of hand-spans of road, trying not to get doored or driven into. So for that, drops would just not give me time to switch to safe weight distribution and save my ass.
Love 'em, but still it's so different than modern capable gravel/all-road bikes.
I have a project brimming with an old rigid MTB to dropbar gravel bike conversion, but I'm not kidding myself that it's anywhere near the purpose built real deal.
Even the geometry is different.
I have an old ritchey framed Rockhopper 26” gets used more than my specialized diverge carbon gravel bike
with curly bars that will terrify you the minute the trail you're on gets rough
Question: Why is there no discussion of changing tire pressure for changing road->trail surface?
I run Schwalbe Land Cruiser 700x40c on IW 19mm wheels. For road & smooth hardpack, I pressure up (60 psi) ; for sketchier double & single track, I deflate to match surface conditions. It's a bit of trouble to re-inflate for the road, but my overall ride enjoyment is greater (including adapting gear appropriate to conditions) For certain the 4 wheel off-roaders deflate/inflate tire to match track conditions.
Because there are literally an infinite amount of things to talk about and not one video will make everyone happy. I do address that in multiple tire pressure videos just not this one.
English major shone through here. Clear language and definitions.
I don't know how many people on here have YT channels, or can post videos, or if we can do it in the new Discord platform, but it would be a really great project to aggregate a series of "what gravel (all road) is to me" videos for people in different places. I am in upstate NY, with hardpack red silty/loam roads, rough decades old asphalt, and a bunch of seasonal non-maintained connectors that can get wild...but I still ride on a stable substrate 75% of the time. I would love to see/share what everyone else is experiencing in their gravel life.
Gravel bikes are not endurance bikes. You are getting too heady. It’s a 700C bike that’s all.
I own two Ridely X-Night SLs - it’s a fantastic gravel bike and a fantastic road bike. The aggressive handling is fantastic for navigating dirt, gravel, pave etc
The issue with your video is that if you ride roads/path that have various terrain then of course there will be sections that a MTN bike will excel and others where a 700C will
Like you said, it’s where you ride and how you ride - turns out Lance was right, it’s not about the bike :)
I don’t have a geo chart handy, but a lot of the current gravel bikes remind me of the “hybrid” bikes of 1990, like those Bianchi had. 700x40 semi-slicks (as big as I could find back then), slacker but just enough to get a reasonable trail figure, a bit springier than the mtb. I kinda wish I had that bike back, as it was fabulous on rails to trails routes, and fun on streets.
All-road is a great umbrella for a type of riding, that can be a bit of a run what you brung situation. For us non curly bar riders it gets a bit confusing though, I definitely don't fit in with the 6 inch plastic fantastic mtb crowd, and I'm too rowdy to be a roadie. I heard dangerholm talk about BMXC (BMX + XC) I kinda dig that Idea. This is the beauty of the internet though, we can all have our lil niches, as long as we don't all get too pedantic. I mean some of us crazies are still talking about 26 inch tires hahah, the worlds big enough for all the bikes.
Dude. We don't need to see you and your mike. Just stick to the scenery and what you're riding. Chopping backwards and forwards ain't good.
Dude. Will totally take your RUclips advice because you've got such a bumping channel and know what your.....oh wait.
Hi Russ, just wondering if you would consider the Norco Indie 1 as a "hidden gravel bike" marketed as Urban/City bike.
I got a nice Belgian cyclocross bike because there are several kilometers of dirt walking paths through the forest around our town's main park and I prefer drop handlebars to flat. With a little extra tire volume, I have a bike that goes on light dirt and grass without having to worry about damaging a carbon rim or a nice road tire on a road bike that costs more than a used honda.
Gravel is the SUV of bicycles - most riders will rarely stray off paved roads, but feel more comfortable and safer in a 'bigger' bike.
I like gravel bikes but have some limitation and because they are expensive I will consider an All Road Bikes more then a "pure" gravel
I've been an advocate of calling them 'all-road' bikes for a long time. The current idea of a 'road' bike is more like a 'race' bike. Whatever happened to the term ATB? All terrain bike. That was bandied around for a while but MTB stuck. Monster Cross? Gnar-Mac?! It's mostly just semantics, but it does have an impact. The problem with trying to change it now is that 'gravel' has stuck in the consciousness of the general cycling public. Not adding 'gravel' to the title of videos, will probably alienate some people ("ANOTHER new category of bike?!?! It's marketing hype!") and mess with search algorithms. It's hard enough suggesting to my bike friends that maybe my personal bike is 'monster gravel'...
Great review of what an "all'road" bike can do. Those WTB Sendero's can tackle pretty much any terrain. I view my Fuji Jari gravel bike as my "all terrain" ride. Even though it is not as confident in true MTB terrain, if I happen to be out on a ride and single track becomes and option, I'll take it! Example: ruclips.net/video/3lXXCUqm6DI/видео.html
What a great definition of gravel riding!
Some manufacturers are moving away from the term "gravel bike" and are labelling them as "all road bikes" now. I don't think the market for a dedicated gravel exists in large enough numbers when compared to the market for a road bike that can handle a bit of rough stuff occasionally
IMO, on short gravel routes a MTB is perfect but on longer roads, gravel bikes offer more comfort because of its different positions possibilities.
Surely better handlebars/cockpit could change that?
Dropbars & road geometry (vs MTB geometry & riding position) are so much better suited to versatile all-road riding, besides being way more comfortable on longer rides & not super-sluggish on the road/flat sections.
I use the Gravel bike for traveling on tarmac to get to the windfarms trails where almost wreck the bike at the speeds I am doing on the trails, then its back on the tarmac for getting back home
*I’m sitting here wondering how a fellow Filipino wound up in Montana.*
🤣🤣
Thank you for the clarification. My 1990 Specialized Stump Jumper was my first gravel bike. A few more bikes later and now I'm a dedicated Fat Biker. I ride old forest and logging roads using my Gravity Bulls Eye equipt with panniers and all of the other asserories. I would love to see a review on the bikes. Maybe a video in the making?
You're in Montana!!!!!!
What a beautiful place!!!! Especially for bikes!
I like your bike bag that has the Panda logo. Where can I find it?
Russ! You should do a review/episode on cycling gloves. There are so many choices out there, and, for shaky gravel riding, which chafes the palms, I’m wondering what kind you use and why?
Enter Monstercross !!
There's a huge gap between a typical gravel bike and xc bike. That gives room for yet another, crossover category.
Well.. like you said on ACN.. it’s based on racing. I believe the gravel category was conceived for gravel races/events. Then the industry evolved it toward touring/bikepacking
If you ride on a regular asphalt rode do you degrade the tires and knobs?
Depends on the compound but generally yes.
Actually it comes down to bar type and tire width so if we create a term with those...
All Road Bike is better description than Gravel Bike
Need to bring back 90s rigid steel mountain bikes but with disc brakes. They would dominate gravel.
My Cinelli Hobootleg geo does it perfectly.
surly's?
I know it's not a drop bar gravel bike, but I would love to hear your review on the Surly Bridge Club.
Liking my Giant Toughroad. Decent price, Tiagra 2x10 and handles the terrain in this video no problem
Love my Toughroad. Take it anywhere. Do anything. Be comfortable.
Yes! Thank you! Allroad or all purpose. In the motorcycle world you have street bikes, dirt bikes and in the middle is the dual purpose. Anything is better than gravel bike (there has been a lot push back and confusion (mainly from roadies) as a the result. In fact I see it every time I get the new issue of Roadbike Action, who, btw defend gravel biking and gravel bikes but I think they would have less of a battle if the term Allroad was used instead.). Please lead the alt name movement! Allroad Cycling Network!
I see some talk about the name MTB and while that as name is potentially a misnomer as well since they aren't necessarily made to ride mountains or only on mountain terrain those bikes were never meant for road use. They were made to go off road. Sure you can ride them on a road but that is not they are designed to do. As for a name change I say let the mtb community figure that one out.
Please also make a video about if a gravel bike is any good for going to the grocery store
*XC bike* with drop-bars.. ☝️😏🖖
Really like your unpretentiousness non competitive presentation.
No.
Subject change; what Gshock was your wearing?. KEEP SAFE. Are you coming out of lock down?.
forget the exact ref#, 5610 family, square, solar with radio synch timing :)
Great vid Russ! I think for me, the bike with the least amount of compromise has been a rigid mtb (Ritchey Timberwolf), running XC tyres. You get all the benefits of mtb geometry on the descents, without the pedal bob (and associated loss of efficiency) of a hardtail on the climbs. After using an all road bike for a while, and finding descents just too sketchy, I made the switch to the rigid mtb and couldn’t be happier.
That being said, from your videos and others, the term “gravel road” seems to have very different definition here in Australia! When I hear “gravel” I am thinking kilometres and kilometres of horrid corrugations...
I think that's really what a "gravel bike" is supposed to be. A bike that can gobble up long distances of very poor to non existent roads. Somewhere between a touring bike and a CX bike, it is meant for getting some real distance done. If you just want to blip around the woods then maybe a CX or MTB is still the better choice
All Road bike sounds better,N+1
Russ, if you wanted a lively bike (building up off a frameset) you could do some bikepacking with, yet run on the DK, would you choose a midnight special, gorilla monsoon, or something else? How would you feel about the Vaya for a DK bike? Thanks!
For me, I’d choose the Bombora or Ritchey Outback. Vaya would make a great DK bike. Sort of a proto-Warbird. You pay a little in weight but gain a lot in stability.
Path Less Pedaled thanks👍🏼
I all ways convert a bike to fit my riding terrain. thanks for the review
Such a great episode. Loved the writing in this video, we’ll done!
Everyone discussing mtb vs gravel.
Driving these roads on a road bike w/ stable tires seems fine to me....
Road bikes usually have a max clearance of 30mm. Not going to be stable on these "roads".
Very well said and I do like the all road bike term
You need that f/s gravel bike niner puts out!
What are some gravel bikes that can handle some light single track?
Most can handle light single track to some extent.
Sweet madras shirt! Where’s it from?
You had me at “substrate”!
N K Lost me too, dirt track, farm road etc
@0:58: What is that handlebar with the apparent short reach+drop and long extension?
Enve gravel bar.
Russ, I found it interesting that at the moment you mentioned the descent beginning to feel sketchy, your hand position was on the hoods. I'll just throw in my two cents worth because I didn't see it happen, but I always descend in the drops for better stability and control.
100% agreed, the drop position for descending, for me, (and for pushing through headwind) is the biggest pro for just putting a drop bar on anything (I also ride "roads", not singletrack).
Most bikes are set up too long for me. When possible, I switch the stems to get an approximation of the "van" fit.
Good breakdown ! I agree fwiw
what a view omg
on the downhill decent i would have probably rode on the grassy patch over the rocks to be honest, seems to be abit more smooth. also maybe becasue i have 42mm's (more light gravel/pack forrest road tires), which might die faster on that particular decent
I always preferred the term ‘Adventure bike’.
but wouldn't any bike be an adventure bike if you're searching for new places
Sometimes you've got to ride what you have. Eventually you'll be able to adjust tire pressure on the fly. Shouldn't be too hard via Bluetooth and pump inside both rims. Will be a sad day when most aren't able to afford the next elitist bike.