Q&A Recap - The Load Cell Design of the Forte Pedals
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 25 сен 2022
- More on the Forte pedals here: www.asetek.com/simsports/prod...
During the September live Q&A session with our CEO André, we got a question about the load cell design on our Forte pedals. This video is a highlight of that specific question and answer.
Watch the Q&A in its full length here: • Live Q&A With Asetek S...
Stay tuned on our website, newsletter, and social media:
Website and newsletter - www.asetek.com/simsports/
Twitter - / aseteksimsports
Facebook - / aseteksimsports
Instagram - @aseteksimsports 
Игры
Great to see an engineer leading a company and designing things for a purpose, and not just because that's how everyone else does it :) As a mechanical engineer myself I highly appreciate videos like these.
As long as the resolution and range of the strain gauge is high enough to cover the full range of pedal depression it doesn't matter AT ALL if it is actuated directly from the force of the elastomers being compressed, or by the smaller spring inside the pedal assembly, you will just be using a different part of the strain gauges range. The relationship is still entirely linear (both elastomers and springs have a linear spring force) so double the force on the pedal = double the output, and the pedal is calibrated after changing elastomers for a max/min range.
The only issue I could see is if Asetek used a sensor with too low of a resolution, so that very stiff setups are running on a small portion of the sensors range, small enough to lead to inaccuracies. From the video here it seems that is certainly not a problem, and these pedals are set up to have a short travel anyway so that is designed in intentionally in the chosen range of the sensor. I've just ordered an Invicta wheel base, and I reckon I will be adding a set of Forte pedals to this at some point.
As a service engineer on high end mass spectrometers, love Andre’s design ethos, honesty and ethics.
I'm late to this party but must comment ! I don't work for Asetek or anyone related to sim racing...I'm an aerospace engineer. Just got into sim racing (wow, it's fun!!! But my iRacing rating is going down not up...ha ha) and saw Dan Suzuki's review (and his updated review) on these pedals. And of course all the debate flying around the internet that Asetek is "cheating".
If you LISTEN to this man's words and actually understand what he is saying, they have a good design.
A load cell is a strain gage that converts physical movement into a modulated electrical signal. The strain gage itself has a very small movement range (around 1mm or so?). It doesn't really matter how you "feed" the strain gage...only that you keep your inputs within its acceptable measuring range. Most pedals use a high-rated load cell...this is done using a chunk of metal to absorb the high braking forces so that your foot pressure doesn't overwhelm the strain gage and move it beyond its ability to measure. The chunk of metal than moves small amounts on the strain gage (please note the strain gage is attached to the chunk of metal!), which provides a modulated input signal to the PC for controlling the brakes on the virtual car. This works great, obviously. And is the established "norm" for a load-cell based brake pedal. And the key point here....the chunk of metal is absorbing force and deflecting. Sounds sort of like a spring eh? Because that is what the giant chunk of metal is doing in a load cell !!!!!! IT IS A SPRING. Chew on that for a bit.
These guys have done it differently...instead of a chunk of metal absorbing your foot's inputs forces, they absorb it in the large black cylinder and orange "bump stop" assembly. The metal of the black cylinder and orange bump stop (and the rest of the pedal assembly) all absorb your foot pressure and deflect slightly....you can't really see it but they are being loaded and hence must deflect a bit. Just like the chunk of metal in a conventional load cell.
Remember, the strain gage itself can only accept a movement of 1mm or so (I'm not sure on the actual input movement range, but 1mm is probably in the ballpark) so you MUST have some sort of force-absorbing system (chunk of metal) to keep it from getting overwhelmed. Think of a load-cell as a mechanical lever on the strain gage, converting large foot movement on the pedal (say 0-100mm or so for a typical pedal?) to the small movement the strain gage requires.
Side-thought: I'd wager if you take a normal load-cell pedal and put in mega-stiff springs/elastomers so that pedal movement is limited to about 1-2 mm, you'd end up with a low resolution output because you are not using very much of the measuring range of that load-cell.
The Forte and La Prima by design limit pedal travel to a small range, so that you are using the entire range of the strain gage. A small spring "feeds" the actual strain gage, and this is PERFECT since the amount of linear movement on the spring is limited by the design of the Forte/La Prima. Keeps the strain gage in its operating range, just like you want.
This is getting rather wordy....I apologize. It is a complex subject and I'm not sure I'm doing a good job explaining it. Bottom line is I think they did a good job on the design...this video explains it well. The struggle here is that not everyone fully understands the details of how this and normal load-cell pedals work, so there is misunderstanding.
Right now, I'm using a wheel and pedals that I originally bought eons ago when I bought my Playstation 2. Takes about 1 kg to fully depress the brake pedal !!! Yes, they are old and total crap so I am looking at what pedals (and wheel...oh geez this wheel is crap too, zero force feedback because it is so old Logitech drivers don't recognize it) to upgrade to.
I don't have tons of hours using sim pedals so IMHO I won't have to unlearn habits formed from using pedals that have a lot of travel.....I think the Forte (or La Prima) pedals will be great for me. And reviews say the force-feedback on the wheel is good, I am really looking forward to driving with actual feedback on my wheel ! I have not yet ordered a new wheel/pedals but the Forte/La Prima (or maybe the Invicta) bundle is at the top of my list.
I also think that people who have lots and lots of time on sim brake pedals that move a significant amount may struggle with these pedals...you have to totally re-tune your muscle-memory. Yes, pressure is pressure but there is also movement coupled with pressure and when that relationship changes (far less movement for equal pressure on these pedals) your brain has to re-wire all the neurons. Change can be hard.
One last note...I think this guy is the CEO? I deal with high-level managers and military officers a lot and it is obvious this individual has a very strong technical background. As opposed to most manager-types who don't always understand what they are trying to explain. I just laugh...it's very obvious. IMHO this guy is the real deal and totally understands the technical details here.
And I love the "if you don't like them don't buy them" comment at the end ! That is just awesome.
the concept should be deepened, talking about the real signal that the load cell perceives (RAW) in the Forte project if we hypothetically use the soft elastomer (White) and hypothetically press 50KG we have a certain real signal (RAW), if we mount the elastomer more 'hard (yellow) and we always press 50Kg we have a lot less real signal (RAW). On pedal boards that have a normal load cell implementation regardless of the elastomer mounted, the real signal (RAW) at a pressure of 50Kg is the same. I think this is the reason why one can think that in the Forte the signal is linked to running. From my point of view it should not be considered an error, but a different implementation. I also agree with the statement that in a project it is the implementation and the final result that really matters, and for this I feel like congratulating you for trying to innovate.
Thank you. We could not have explained it better ourselves 👍😎
Went through all comments, as I found this video in my research before I pressed buy on the website. All sides could handle it better, I think.
If the employee of the competing company makes the comment, it is fair and decent to say so at the first place. Saying “everybody know me, channel etc.” afterwards is not fair nor nice, as someone how read must investigate and waist time, like me now writing this comment. However, fact that someone works for some company, does not make the statement true or false, as this is generally true.
On the other side, Asetek could just said that the Forte system is different implementation of the load cell, as it is, and it is designed to be compromise between reduced cost and performance. That is what was pretty much said in the video. In the Forte pedals specs, it says, “Load cell will sense up to 180 kg of force on the face of the pedal”, and that is not completely true. Much better wording will be “load cell system can simulate up to 180kg of the force on the pedal”.
Third side is, the statement that Forte pedals could work the same with potentiometer is not completely true ether. As Dan Suzuki in his video showed, second stage can be set in the way that pedal is not moving (or almost not moving) but still can read pressure, and that can’t be replicated by potentiometer. This system is hybrid, designed to reduce cost with minimal lost to the braking input. I would expect that in La Prima pedals for instance, hydraulic system on the Forte and new ABS system on Invicta pedals. Of course, price should be adjusted but that was the way I would segment the product.
More technical demonstrations would be excellent. I would love to see more about how the T.H.O.R.P. system works in the Invicta pedals, and André has a natural talent for explanations/demonstrations. A similar video on Asetek's clutch would also be very welcome.
Thank you for the feedback!
Have you seen this video about 2-stage braking? ruclips.net/video/QjktKoChfX8/видео.html
It shows more about how the T.H.O.R.P. system works :)
All I want to know is, can the brake pedal sit proud of the throttle? I need proper heel and toe shifting...
But seriously, I need these pedals and the clutch kit. I have a set of CSL V1s that has the strain gage on the pedal arm, but the braki g feels anything but consistent. And I cannot have the brake pedal sat proud of the throttle, which makes downshifting a chore.
Good video. I intended to listen as I drove home, but I had to pull over and see what you were talking about. I'm sold!
Hey!
Indeed they can! Depending on where you measure to and from on the pedal plates, adjustment is possible to an extent where the throttle sits over one full inch behind the brake. Also, we have a video on our channel demonstrating heel and toe with our pedals here: ruclips.net/video/DBWKhak3Qgk/видео.html
Hope it helps!
@@AsetekSimSports It sure does! Thank You
Thank you for the clarification - I’m interested in feel and performance I’m not bothered how it is achieved….great reviews from people who actually race as opposed to keyboard warriors who haven’t even tried them. Even the ones who were questioning the construction still like them….I have pre-ordered just have to wait till April now.
The difference between Forte and most other Load Cell pedals:
Compress different elastomer with the same force and compare the measured input. Soft elastomer get compressed further, resulting in more travel than with hard elastomer but as the force is the same, the measured input should be the same as well.
- Forte: The pressure/travel is measured by a small spring and load cell which is decoupled and working in parallel from the elastomer stack where the actual force of the foot is going into, because of this the loadcell is not impacted by the softer/harder elastomer. This results in higher input reading with soft elastomer than with hard, even though the pressure put into the pedal was the same.
- Other LC pedals: The pressure/travel is directly measured by a big loadcell receiving all of the force of the elastomer. The same force will always result in the same input, no matter how soft or hard the elastomer is because elastomer and load cell are in line with each other and not in parallel.
Compress a progressive elastomer setup which is soft in the beginning (big travel difference but little pressure difference), but hard at the end (little travel difference but high pressure difference).
- Forte: During the whole travel the small spring and loadcell will measure a linear change of input relative to the distance the small spring got compressed because it is decoupled from the progressive elastomer setup. In the beginning there is a high input change even though the pressure is not rising much and at the end there is less input change even though the pressure difference is higher. This is bad because the input doesn't represent the progressive pressure change, your foot sense pressure differences the load cell doesn't read because it is decoupled.
- Other LC pedals: The pressure/travel is directly measured by the load cell to ensure that the input signal is exactly representing the change of pressure put into the brake.
On the Forte the measurement of the small load cell is decoupled from the actual force applied on the pedal plate creating a false measurement. The force of the braking foot is going into the elastomer and into the backplate without getting measured, while the only force/movement reaching the load cell and getting measured is coming from a tiny spring which is actuated in parallel but independent from the actual overall pressure. The Forte try to compensate this incorrect measurement by applying a progressive curve to the input after measurement but it will never be completely accurate to the actual progressiveness of the elastomer.
- Forte measure only the distance and not the actual pressure going into the elastomer because the input is measured in parallel to the pressure.
- Other load cell pedals measure the the actual pressure because the input gets measured directly and not in parallel.
- While in both cases the load cell itself is measuring deflection, on the Forte it's decoupled for the pressure while on onther LC pedals it is not.
Hi Marcel,
Is it Fanatec you work for? We assume they pay you salary and you thereby have a fincancial interest in slandering competitors. Are things getting hot over there? If so, in addition to the best pedals, we are also selling the world's best liquid coolers and would be happy to send you a sample?
We are selling pedals based on how they feel, consistency and good quality (highly recommended btw).
Have a good weekend and thanks for the theory lecture. Next time - just use your Fanatec name. Everybody loves transparency these days 😘
I mean... a correct message is a correct message, regardless of who says it...
@@MrTomRobs as you also work for Fanatec, and you also do not disclose it (but yet preaches is does not matter who posts) and thereby have a financial interest in this debate, ie you have a financial interest in slandering a competitor, we cannot really take you guys seriously. Our recommendation is you keep your criticism and "objectiveness" to your own channels.
A company that bring a product to market and do as they say and say as they do is right. It is not up to competitors to define what is right and wrong. At the end of the day there is only one judge, and that is the company's customers.
We have sold a lot of Forte pedals and we get great feedback, that they are consistent, people drive fast with them, (many as fast as with Invicta in fact) quality is great and at an affordable price point.
At our side we are happy we get the feedback that matches what they were designed for. That being said we acknowledge many got a set perception of how things should be made. That does not stop us from innovating and do what we believe is right.
So we are just happy there are products for those who wants a specific recipe of technology as well :) We cannot please all and we are not trying to please all.
Main difference is, we do not talk about our competitors doing things right or wrong. None of our business, we focus on our own work ;)
@@AsetekSimSports Admirable PR approach but it's been pointed out by multiple sources that what is being advertised is clearly different to the application in practice.
Sure, competitors don't know the ins and outs of your operation but a scientific principle is a constant.
So far I've seen deflection and ad hominem arguments be made, but nothing to clarify or debate the argument that was originally made saying that load cells do not work how they have been described.
Customer feedback being good is of course a good thing and options on the market drive innovation. Sure. But if you try and market to a knowledgeable consumer base making remarks which industry experts are saying is wrong, it casts you in a bad light
@@MrTomRobs let's just once again establish you work for Fanatec and have a financial interest in this debate. We are 100% transparent about our approach and our design. Sorry you don't see it that way.
We own more or less all competitor products on the market. We have made conscious decisions on our design approaches.
We are super excited about the recepetion we have received from both users and reviewers that used our products :) As a matter of fact one reviewer only out of many even put interests in the technology. Everyone else focused on the performance of the pedals. Here is a good example:
“Would I put these on my rig and would I use them? Absolutely! No question at all. These are as good as any load cell pedal set I have ever, ever tried.
I think the build quality is absolutely excellent… Build quality: faultless!”
- Dave Cam, review of the Forte Pedals
Love the content. Keep it coming!
Porfavor, activad subtitulos español, gracias.
The real issue (that these 7 minutes of video failed to explain at all) is very well demonstrated by Dan Suzuki in his video about it: ruclips.net/video/lRdGqPm6jOA/видео.html The critique is that Forte's brake pedal isn't a pressure-based pedal, but instead a position-measured pedal. This is because the elastomers do not actuate the load cell, it is actuated by a small spring regardless of what set of elastomers is used. This means that using a load cell or a potentiometer would be the same, as it's only measuring the position of the pedal, instead of how hard it's being pressed. Which, quite frankly, makes these pedals worthless as sim racing "load cell" pedals.
Sorry you feel them worthless. That is fortunately not the feedback we get. We get great feedback, that they are consistent, people drive fast with them, (many as fast as with Invicta in fact) quality is great and at an affordable price point.
At our side we are happy we get the feedback that matches what they were designed for. That being said we acknowledge many got a set perception of how things should be made so we are just happy there are products for those as well :)
"It can sense if I fart on it!!". Freaking love this guy!! No bullshit. Thanks for the great videos.
I wish you never posted a video like this. You have already said that travel is measured with the load cell in the brake pedal, not the actual load. If a loadcell is used in the brake pedal, the actual load must be measured. Otherwise, users will never be satisfied.
Which is the case with most load cell pedals but not the forte. As in the Forte the load cell is in parallel to the elastomere, it is only measuring the travel with it's deflection while on other load cell pedals the load cell is in line with the elastomer getting all the force causing the load cell deflection. In other words: On other pedals the deflection of the load cell is caused by the pressure, on the Forte it's caused by the travel.
We have sold a lot of Forte pedals. It is fair if you are not happy with them, but it is not the feedback we get. We get great feedback, that they are consistent, people drive fast with them, (many as fast as with Invicta in fact) quality is great and at an affordable price point.
At our side we are happy we get the feedback that matches what they were designed for. That being said we acknowledge many has a set perception of how things should be made so we are just happy there are products for those as well :)
This is truly a great explanation video about the forte pedals and all the fuzz around it. I must admit i was sceptical and confused about the loadcell system of them. But videos like this are a great answer for simracing donkeys like myself 😅 thx!
At the end of the day, sim racing pedals (and other sim products) should feel good, allow the driver to be fast and consistent, not break down and not break the bank.
How they are made or how some people believe they should be made, does not really interest us much :)
@@AsetekSimSports i agree you shouldnt care about some opinions, but for me as a interested consumer/ buyer of simproducts like yours, youtube is a medium i use to gather knowledge and is often a decision maker. So i really appreciate it when a manufacturer takes the time to elaborate more on the misperceptions / mechanics, like you do often (gamescom 3D printed wheel for ex.) Cheers! 👍
19 / 5,000
Very well explained 👍