North & Skinner Wedge-Lock Revolving Rifle
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
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Patented in 1852 by Henry North and Chaucey Skinner, about 700 of these revolving rifles were made by 1856. The design used a locking wedge to seal the cylinder forward so that the firing chamber would nest into the barrel and seal the cylinder gap. The operating lever that did this also served to index the cylinder and recock the hammer, making for a fairly sophisticated design. The rifles were manufactured by North & Savage of Middletown Connecticut; the Edward North who was partner in the company was brother of Henry North, who was co-designer. The company dates back to the North & Cheney partnership formed to produce military pistols for the US government in 1799.
The improved patent of 1856 would replace the locking wedge system with a toggle link, and would be the basis for the North & Savage “Figure 8” revolvers. The revolving rifle design was abandoned in favor of handguns, as they presumably were significantly more popular on the market.
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Mark at anvil would be pissed at the lack of "maintenance" on this old gem.
Yep, the inside looked like mixture of old black powder and straw, doesn't look like it was cleaned since 1800's.
@@johnmorgan1629 I was noting that also. Would cleaning it to remove gunk lower the value?
@@gunnerclark I go with Mark's view "It may not be worth much now, but it means that it lasts another 200 years" and as someone who enjoys history, I would prefer something like this to last.
This is the fault of the previous owner, hopefully the new one can do good by this piece of history and have it respectfully cleaned. Gunk and powder do not represent historical value and in some cases, they can even be corrosive or damaging to the gun.
There's a distinct difference between cleaning a gun and restoring it (good or bad), unfortunately, be it for monetary reasons, fright or what have you, a lot of pieces go unserviced. This kind of thing happens in more than just the gun community, art, architecture, even in the musical community, same problem. People just assign a value and that's the extent of their concern.
@@gunnerclark cleaning never will lower value, but stop yourself if you reach for anything abrasive. there is a difference between cleaning/maintenance and trying to make it look new again
I always inevitably have the same thought while watching these videos, "Man, screws have been around for a long time".
The term is "standard". They're literally called standard screws.
I love this thread :)
Heck. I used to think that too. Then I learned how long assembly thread have been used. They are old. Even older then firearms.
Then there are screws for elevating water but those are not as fascinating.
I want know how they made threads in the 14th century.
They did.
They wrote about them.
They assembled weapons like swords with them.
But how?!
The screw cutting lathe was invented in the early 1800's. Taps as we know them came even later!
@@jimandaubz I always wonder how these sorts of things were produced before the lathe. To produce them in a standardized fashion by hand in any quantity would seem to have been impossible, but they did it somehow.
@@TrinidadJamesWoods unlimited time to think & practice.
Every time he shows the inside of the frame I can hear Mark Novak screaming "DO THE MAINTENANCE!"
...but..that would damage the patina
The patina increases its collectible value! Herpa-derp!
@@TheWolfsnack DUST ISN'T PATINA!
Interesting how ergonomics of rifles and pistols have changed over the years
There's a strong tie between the science of ergonomics and aesthetic values and the evolution of guns. Dare i say, it's one of the more if not the most active fields as far as direct contact with a human hand goes. There's no year going by since the first guns appeared that branches don't grow or wither. Ever changing, ever evolving, survival of the fittest.
@@aserta
Modern guns are not that beautiful...
I mean, what we have now is ether of the conservative AR/AK variety, or these weird plastic bullpups.
They are making the man using them more efficient, but aesthetically speaking they are kindda... meh
(not to dis or anything, brother)
@@StanislavG. can't tell me the mg3 isn't sexy as hell
its all in materials use, improved manufacturing production, and modern day military valuing utility and not esthetics. what the fuck are you going on about?
2:40 - "Josiah Savage was an interesting character."
I'm pretty sure that comes with the name.
You don't give your kid the name 'Josiah Savage' if you want them to grow up to be an accountant.
That's a name for a tough, cigar-chompin', Nazi-punchin' pulp magazine hero. Like He's Nick Fury's drinking buddy.
The idea may have not lasted long but these revolver rifles are cool in my book.
If I had the dough, I'd want to collect a reproduction.
@@omicrondec Might need to start rebuilding them. If the laws change although I do not see that happening.
Also, I noticed another safety bit involving the blasting caps, it looked like there were 'ports' to the left and right of it to help prevent chaining via caps going off.
wow a few years ago when thinking about how to make a practical revolver rifle i came up with a concept almost exactly like this, except instead of the wedge i envisioned a cam attached to the cylinder pin which could slide back and forth, so it was more like a lever-toggle-action. the wedge is simpler and integrates my idea of the battery-arm and cylinder-rotating arm into one part.
goes to show there's nothing new under the sun :)
edit: 10:31 OH HAHA i'd like to see that!
Hi, just wondering your thoughts on guns like the Tarus/Rossi Circut Judge. They solved the gas issue by placing 2 small channrls to vent gas away from the user. Never had a cgance to shoot one so I have no Idea how well they work, but apparently they make a .44 magnum version.
I remember watching that early video Ian, it''s amazing how things have evolved for you from those early days. I'm glad you are now in a position where you can revisit some of your older videos and put a polish on them. I'm personally not much of a "gun guy", it's the history and engineering that really drew me to your channel. Also, Mud Test... who doesn't like seeing how far you can push something before it fails.
One of the most eye opening things I learned from you is the true story of the M16 in Vietnam. It really added a an extra layer to an already tragic, complex and sad part of history.
That is mechanically very cool. I would buy a modern cartridge revolver on this principle or the toggle
Same,I've always adored revolvers and hated the issues with making them rifles,I want a modern 44 mag revolver rifle so bad.
I believe the only modern cartridge revolver to use this principle, and I'm using the term 'modern' very loosely, would be the M1895 Nagant revolver. I have one in my collection, more as a curiosity than anything else. They're a bit non-ergonomic to handle, hard to find ammo for, and generally clunky, although mechanically rather clever. I think Ian has done a video or two on them.
The Nagant uses the trigger to operate the locking mechanism so has that famous super heavy trigger. A carbine on this principle could be a lever or pump allowing the trigger to be light
That's actually a very cool wedge system. Disassembly is also cool.
Brilliantly designed. I love the idea of a revolving carbine, and the solutions they came up with are clever.
3:04 "As well as owning a couple of Dwarves...." Wait...What? *rewind
*Wharves*
That’s how you know you’re well off
Wharfs, a type of dock typically used by fishing boats.
DWHARPHS!!!!
The preferred term is little people.
Their relation to slavery is... well, it exists. Was more of an ancient history thing (apparently some of the Greeks had an obsession with their normal size penises on small bodies) than 18th century American slavery, but...
Oh, yeah, probably wharves.
I jokingly refer to the early time period of new technologies where there is a great variety of different approaches as the field's "Cambrian explosion". That last part being particularly apropos for firearms... yuk, yuk, yuk.
This is my favorite revolving rifle idea. I haven't seen the toggle one AFAIR . So wedge it is so far. The cylinder moving forward like a Nagant is great and makes me wonder how many designs though of it independently.
I love watching you disassemble guns and talk about them like the beautiful machines they are.
I love the "almost there" designs.
Zachary Snyder I love the UGF Pandas
I see so many comments... on a revolver rifle, you DO NOT EXTEND THE FORWARD HAND PAST THE CYLINDER GAP. Support is directly in front of the other hand, or a secondary device (stick, rock or something, etc.). There's a reason there is no front stock! Think outside the box!
You know, I think that with some modern love, a high caliber revolving rifle could be quite effective. No where near as ergonomic as using magazines, or even stripper clips, but, the style would be quite nice.
Always love getting the history of the people and companies that make these guns. Best part of the videos for me.
I had a history channel civil war game for ps2 and it had a revolver rifle and i loved it... It had the sharps rifle too and it was my favorite gun as a child
A clever way to get around Colts patent- though personally i´m not sure its all that practical when compared to a regular revolver rifle.
Realistically it isn't any worse than a single action revolving rifle of the same era.
cool, I thought it was related to the savage revolvers based on the forward-backwards cylinder movement!
I was thinking about rifle revolvers and this is sort of what I imagined when I saw the thumbnail. Nothing new under the sun!
I'm a simple entity, I see Ian with a revolver rifle, I hit that like button.
I'm a simpler entity, I hit the like button before I hit play. :D Gun Jesus has not had a bad sermon yet.
@@michaelfodor6280 amen
What an interesting contraption there
Taurus who owns Rossi has released a revolvering 45 Colt /410 rifle based off the Judge They have built in blast shields into the forestock being a center fire that eliminates the chainfire problem the blast shield eliminates the gas blow bye
Aww, and I thought I was so smart with making hand shields on a revolver-rifle.
Ian, have you ever been tempted to clean the firearms you review? That rifle looks like its filled with grass clippings. Great video.
it can mess with the value of said weapon
Mr.Blue.Fox[Fox.clan] Someone would really find old lubricant, carbon, and dead skin cells valuable?😦 I have been buying, selling, and shooting guns (though manufactured post 1900) for over 30 years. I could imagine not shooting a rare/fragile firearm but not doing the maintenance?🤯 Thanks for your comment.
@@leomtk more like in cleaning the gun you are potentially removing years of history and its hard to say what life that gun has seen most people arnt likely buying this to fire but rather to enjoy
Most intriguing! I always wondered why revolver rifles never caught on. Thanks Ian!
I think a definitive factor in it was the gas issue Ian mentioned and in 1860 the Henry style rifles started. The beginning of Colt revolvers was in 1836. Connect that with that the military liked muskets because they are cheap and rugged and powerful and that you don't need a rapid fire low power rifle for hunting.
Because a few years later that Henry Guy bulit a better action
The coolest revolving rifle I've seen on this channel thus far.
Ian, I saw several rifles like this recently along with a slew of 19th century (and 20th century) small arms at a museum outside my childhood hometown. If you are ever in NE Oklahoma, specifically around Bartlesville, you should check out Woolaroc. They have a great collection. I wish I could have spent more time there.
A very fine piece of craftsmanship.
That is a very cool system for sealing the cylinder gap.
That is a cool way to mitigate the effects of cylinder gap. A couple of smart dudes.
Well to avoid hand burns, you can use y stick, those y sticks that some matchlock muskets
They made it almost a quick-change cylinder. It would have only taken a few slight changes, and could have reloaded the gun in a couple seconds. Still would have failed though.
And a soldier would cry for extra carrying weight that he has to because each cylinder would have a weight equal to 24 rounds.
@P-Talks
Anyone with an IQ capable of entering Service would not cry about extra ammo
@@justiceforjoggers2897 83 or higher, any lower IQ is illegal!
carrying a spare cylinder is almost a moot point anyway. To fully utilise a spare cylinder, you would have to have it capped as well, and if you happen to stumble or fall, or dropped the spare by mistake, and it lands on one of the caps... boom... better hope that cylinder isn't pointing anywhere near you! Having a fully capped, spare cylinder was inherently dangerous. As far as my own experiences go, capping the cylinder takes almost as long as loading it, so if, for safety sakes, you leave the loaded cylinder capless, you may as well just reload the entire thing.
Thank you for all your work , Ian
This mechanism is really neat. I was watching a video on another revolving rifle and I was thinking of this, its kind of like the puckle gun and a lever action rifle.
While the chainfire-detonation-prevention-system is genious, wouldn't a chainfire detonation be sort of bad for your support hand?
Very much so, thats one of the major reasons that revolving carbines never realy took off. Great question.
That's why they used shooting sticks back in the day.
If you have the choice designing the risk to be a mangled hand or blasted out eyes what would you choose?
But at least the rifle is okay! Priorities!
Don’t hold to cheek or hold anywhere in front of cylinder problem solved
Very cool and obscure gun. Estimate is $4,00-$7.000 and I bet it brings closer to the high end. If it was in a little better condition it would go way over.
I wonder why they put the cap box on the left side of the stock instead of the right?
I think it was put on the left side so that a right-hand shooter wouldn't need to use his trigger hand to grab caps.
this channel never get's old.
besides what was mentioned to stop the flash and lead shards hitting the user it looks like tha cover plate covering the cylinder would also do a good job of protection also.
wonder if theres ever being made a nagant tipe revolver rifle ? quite good gas seal , would be nice to convert a cheap nagant with a extended long barrel and a stock atached to the grip,,, just for fun and cool factor looks.
@andrei kabak , thanks , well maybe some day Ian will make a video about those nagnt variants , cheers!!
3 savage videos in a row! Fig 8, navy and this rev rifle..
Thats ALOT like a Nagant M1895 Revolver, only in Pre cartridge form
Yes... Yes it is.
So, how exactly are you supposed to hold it if the openings for accidental discharges are considered safe?
cool thanks Ian
Wouldn't chainfire blow your fingers off your support hand in every scenario? Those holes are a massive health and safety risk.
Well as World Traveller points out elsewhere on this page, "That's why they used shooting sticks back in the day."
savage is still making arms to this day, although they lack much of the early innovation their forefathers had. their stores are filled with imitation Rugers, Mossbergs, ARs and Remingtons. nothing jumps out as particularly interesting.
Very interesting revolver rifle Ian
Amazing machining for the time
I love history and I love guns. forgotten weapons is the best.
these transitional periods always wield the strangest and coolest weapons
Looks like that one could benefit from a damn good clean :)
It actually is a pretty advanced design, I could see a modern design/construction version of the action being done today.
Back again with patent information. North's and Skinner's patent is 8,982 issued 1 June 1852 entitled Revolver.
The city you are referring to is Middletown, CT. Really interesting video. I wonder if the North was invilved in the formation of North and Judd, the largest marine fitter in the USA.
Great video! As someone from CT it is pronounced Middle-Town though
That's a beautiful rifle!
Would i be wrong in saying that if the gun chain fires and a side round goes off it could clip your forward grip hand? Anyone know if thats an issue?
Likely would only be an issue once
That might be an improvement over the whole mechanism becoming a grenade right in front of your face. I doubt you'd get a lot of velocity out of the 1/4- 1/2 of 'barrel' in the front of the cylinder. Lot of flash, lot of boom, but less zoom. All about risk mitigation, not elimination.
That's why they used shooting sticks back in the day.
You don't grip these forward, you use the section forward of the lever so your hands are closer together. There's a reason there isn't a forestock...
@@mfree80286Yeah that makes sence now that i look at the front of the barrel more closely. Just looked like a difficult way to hold such a long rifle.
Have you ever talked about why, despite the failure of the revolving rifle, the revolving cannon made it as a modern weapon? I know the simple answer is that you have more accuracy, no 'spin up' time and overall light weight vs. multi-barrel cannons however I always wonder why engineers got it very right on a large scale and were never able to introduce a functional small arms variant?
Miniaturization is a costly effort.
>has shield and mechanism to protect users hand from blast
>chain fire holes are set up so that theyll hit the users finger when exiting
genius...
Ian, it would be really great to see shooting an original black powder revolving rifle. I suppose a modern black powder reproduction version would suffice and be a little safer. Thank you for bringing such interesting firearms and their histories out of their dark past. Also, I have really enjoyed watching you since 2013 and seeing your camera work and speaking abilities develop over time.
Interesting and good looking rifle IMO.
Really cool.
what a beauty
6:20 If the other two cylinders on the side chainfire parallel to the barrel, wouldn’t it still shoot a lead ball into the users hand holding the forend?
Jesse Urban yeah, but it wouldn’t explode in your face. Injury, not death.
That's why they used shooting sticks back in the.
I REALY like this gun! from the action to the skull crusher stock...even the rear sight looks nice too. The view around the hammer looks a little sketchy though.
A very interesting rifle, for sure! It's innards fall out like a Winchester 94! LOL Pity about the dust bunny colony in the receiver...
"they wont blow up the gun, they wont hurt the user, they'll just fire down parallel to the barrel..." and blow off your hand that's holding onto the front of the rifle!
There's no fore-end grip on this sort of rifle, for exactly that reason. You DON'T put your hand in front of the cylinder.
i wish someone could make a 22LR revolver rifle similar to the russian 7.62 revolver's system, i have a few uses in mind for it.. also in 22LR you might be able to make a 10 shot cylinder
A chain fire would destroy your hand should you be holding it. ;w;
That's why they used shooting sticks back in the day.
Still, better that than the whole thing turn into a crude fragmentation grenade by your face.
Hand?
@@elonmust7470 The thing attached to the end of your arm.
Love your videos
Very cool indeed !
My desire for a Pieper revolving carbine is not lessened by this video.
You're right, Mark Novak over at Anvil would have a coronary if he saw how filthy( not the good kind of filthy either) that rifle is.
Job security is one thing....but the permanent damage causes by corrosive nature of black powder ensures the need for proper maintenance and care.👍😉
Just a small correction: The town in Connecticut that Savage Firearms Company hailed from is Middletown. As always, I'm a huge fan of the channel. Thanks for continually putting out quality content.
More on Savage Firearms: americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Thomsen-History-of-the-Savage-Revolving-Arms-Company-vol115-p26-36.pdf
I've often wondered why they didn't put a vertical for grip on these revolving rifles if you designed it right your hand should be safe from the cylinder gap
flash .
nice gun
It's a holy moment when gun Jesus uploads
I can never understand why people who want top dollar out of their weapons take the time and expense to send them to an auction house like this one but do not take the time to CLEAN their damn firearms!
I was thinking the same. Too cheap I guess.
Probably afraid too, lots of antiques damaged by cleaning wrong
You may wish to update your website "After many years, I finally have a selection of shirts and cool stuff for sale! Just in time to buy something after Christmas, how's that for timing?"
It's still right 1/12th of the time.
Wishing that was mine
Wow cool
Even with the screw and captive pin it still looks like it would be faster to change cylinders than to reload the one.
The modifications to make changing cylinders convenient do not look that difficult; a thumb screw with the threading on other side and enough thread so that the lever drops free before the screw does and the cylinder pin held in place with a detent rather than the captive pin.
How much energy can the bullet get with only half an inch of barrel?
How many revolving weapons are known to push the sylinder forward "into" the barrel? This and the nagant revolver, anything else?
Neat.
Wouldn't long sleeves and a heavy coat be enough to stop the problem of cylinder gap with a revolving rifle?
Just get a Wyatt Earp coat!
Ever see the photo of a guy who held his revolver with his support hand forward of the cylinder? Not even a welding glove would save your hand. Imagine a plasma cutter and it's close.
Those "safety" holes are not safe at all! On a pistol they would work, but on a rifle, where one hand is holding the barrel, they would shoot right into that hand or at least take off some fingers. Ok, thats may be still better than blowing up completely. But "safe" is something else...
That's why they used shooting sticks back in the day.
Something from the1850s with captive takedown pins? That puts a lot of later designs to shame...
Would like to see that little brass gate on the stock opened and know its purpose. Ball or powder store??
Has no one tried a trough shaped hand guard? Something that would go around the cylinder and extend as far forward as you were likely to put your hand?
nosuchthingasshould I was thinking that myself, perhaps it could even slide forward for re-loading, and be the grip to avoid a chain/fire from hitting you?
Yes, it would protect the hand from chain fire. I'm sure someone must have tried it, it's such an obvious solution, and simple, not even mechanical really .
This is excellent news!
I can see a few problems right off. Interesting solution regardless.
is there a town in CT that has not made guns at some point. Seems like a lot of gun companies came from there.
Its like a M1895 so you can put a silencer on it.
If i hold the barrel and get a chain fire and a bullet comes flying parallel to the barrel things can get pretty nasty.
Seeing the dirt and corrosion makes me want to break out my cleaning kit.
I wonder how common chain firing actually was on things like this.
I'm always curious about the methods a gunsmith would have used back in the 18th and 19th centuries to accurately mill metal parts like the ones used on this piece. I mean, if it was just a guy making one as a hobby, it'd be one thing, but without electricity or even steam power, how do shape metal stock 200 years ago?