I would suggest another method for bleaching film, using far more common and safe chemicals. This is a 2 part bleach, using 4 common ingredients: Part 1: Copper Sulfate, Salt, and Citric Acid. Heat 800ml of water until it is lukewarm. Mix 50 g of copper sulfate, 50g of salt, and 5g of Citric acid. Add water to 1 L. Mix until all powders dissolve.This solution is mainly CuCl3, and will dissolve aluminum, so be aware of this. Other than that, it is safe to handle, and only basic chemical safety precautions need to be taken. Part 2: Ammonia 1+4. Regular 5% cleaning Ammonia works well. Ammonia is a somewhat dangerous chemical, but as long as you follow all directions on the label, and don’t mix it with any other chemicals, you will be fine. Although mixing part 1 and 2 should be avoided, if they are mixed, the reaction does not release any harmful gasses or chemicals. Replace the dichromate bleach step with 5 minutes in part 1, and 3 minutes in part 2. Other than that, the process is the same. I hope this helps!
Yes, the same process can be used to process old Kodachrome, but you'll need to play around with the develope times and, of course, add a step to remove the remjet which Kodachrome has. Though, I would argue (especially in the case of processing 'found' Kodachrome film that might have precious family memories on it) you should process Kodachrome as a negative which can produce a better result in SOME cases.
All I've been doing is dumping the film into a #116 Paterson tank with non-toxic Caffenol. I'm even too cheap to buy new film. I buy old color 8mm Kodak film and shoot at f/1.9.
So you don't have it on a spiral or anything? I guess you just use invert agitation? How do you keep the film from leaving marks on itself? (I have a three-reel 35mm tank, trying to avoid buying the lomo if I can)
Excellent video and teaching. I have the lomo tank, shot some black and white reversal film but I just need the chemicals to make them at home. Would you recommend the CineStill Film CS2 Cine Simplified ECN 2-Bath Powder Kit to develop B&W Reversal film at home if you can't get the chemicals shown in the video? Thanks so much.
Hey Rene--ECN (or any color chemicals) will NOT work on Black and White Reversal film--at least, not in the intended way. You'll need to use the correct type of black and white reversal chemistry in order to get the proper results. If you are struggling to get the chemicals in this video, consider subsituting different things (for example, you may be able to get a potassium permanganate based bleach. There are also lots of videos out there on using hydrogen peroxide based bleaches.) If you are having issues getting the chemicals for the developer, it is possible to get great results from other standard black and white negative film developers as your first and 2nd developer.
I've mixed up a batch of Kodak D-94a for Tri-X Super 8. However, Kodak's data sheet says use the first developing bath for 90 seconds and the second for 50 seconds? Are these times accurate for Tri-X Super 8 developed with D-94a in a Lomo tank?
That seems awfuly short to process a reversal film--but that being said, I have no personal experience using D-94. It is possible those times are correct but I cannot be sure as I've never used that specific process.
The internet suggests a 100W light source for a proper second exposure. I only have a 24W bathroom light tube. Does that work as well? And do I have to make a longer second exposure with only 24W?
Why are you using dichromate bleach, considering other far less toxic bleaches are available? Is there any advantage to this over an oxidising bleach like hydrogen peroxide or potassium permanganate?
iNerdier theres a more thorough Super 8 developing video made by a German guy. He mentions that the less toxic bleaches don’t last nearly as long in storage as dichromate and the crystals are hard to completely dissolve
is there any 16mm black and white film that would use chemistry that still photos would use? I wanted to try and load 16mm film into a 110 cartridge and then develop it at home.
Any of the black and white films could be used. You don't need to do a reversal if you want a negative, just develop it in regular black and white developers. You can probably find times for the stocks, especially if it is available in 35mm as well.
Hi. I think tank is most expensive thing in all this stuff. But how much cost al ingredients to developing. Obviously if you gonna develop more than one film, the price will be decreased. But for start how much do I need spend?
Looking into a clearing/stop bath, i was told to use a mixture of water and sulfuric acid, and that you can simply use water, and run it through the tank a few times, but using sodium sulphite? That's sounds odd. Sodiumthiosulfate, or plain hypo, is the main ingredient in the fixer, and those two baths take care of very different jobs. I'm confused. I know that sodium sulphate and sodiumthiosulfate is not the same thing, they share big parts of the names, and the differences can't be too major.
The main purpose of the Sodium Sulfate (anhydrous), from what I have been told (I am NOT an expert in chemistry) is to help neutralize the dirchromate bleach and help to remove any of it that is still remaining on the film before the re-exposure step; this is why the film turns from yellow to white. I suppose it could be substituted for water, but I imagine that would take longer to achieve. Plus, the sulfate is super cheap, so why not!
@@owenthegenealogist Ah, of course. That makes sense :D
2 года назад
@@owenthegenealogist Are you sure you don't mean Sodium Sulphite (Na2So3)? Sodium Sulfate (Na2So4) don't seem to do much difference here, or did I miss something?
@ You are exactly right--it is Sodium Sulphite! It is funny you noticed this because once a lot time ago, I didn't pay attention and purchased Sodium SulFATE and noticed that it did not clear the film as well and was also much harder (for some reason) to mix.
@@FilmPhotographyProject Thank you for the Information I am new at the Format. I also wanted to say thank you to the FPP for giving other People and me the option to shoot 8mm again. It´s really cool what you are doing and stay as you are. Warm greedings from Germany.
Thanks for this, I always wondered if there was an at-home method of doing this. The only thing I don't understand is why would you slice the film down the middle? And why don't you see us seam down the middle of the film when you're running it through the projector?
Owen slit the film because "Double 8" is 16mm film that's on a small reel. You shoot one pass in the camera and then flip it and shoot the other half. Once processed the lab slits the film down the middle and splices it together. Read more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_mm_film
Here's an article I wrote about the basics of Regular 8mm film :filmphotographyproject.com/content/howto/2018/07/skinny-regular-8mm-home-movie-film/ The Lomo tank can handle 16mm, Super 8mm, Double Super 8mm, and Regular 8mm film.
Owen M. McCafferty II wow that was a quick response! How many time are we talking for double 8 rolls assuming that the bottle has its air removed after each use?
@@burntoutelectronics The honest answer is I don't know the exact number for sure. But I will say that I've gotten between 8-15 rolls of double 8 out of my batches!
It is reusable. It really depends on what kind of film you process. Generally speaking, with fresh black and white reversal film, you should be able to get about 1,000 feet out of it, though you may notice that you have to extend bleach times towards the end of its life. But there are other factors--how and where you store it, how much time has passed between each roll you process etc. You'll notice that it starts to turn brown and then greenish as it starts to exhaust. The only way to safely dispose of it is to find a chemical recycling program near you that can handle it. It is not something you should throw down the drain. If you have to throw it down the drain (which I absolutely do not recommend as it is so bad for the environment to do so--and could be against local law depending on where you are at), you should add a good scoopful of sodium sulfate to it to help reduce the chromium. But again, you really should make the effort to find a chemical recycle or disposal program.
Chromates must never go down a drain, a septic tank or onto the ground. Chromate solutions can be mixed into a sack of concrete which is landfilled after hardening. NEVER send that to a wastewater plant or a leach field. In fact, I would highly recommend abandoning that bleaching compound altogether.
I guess the distilled water is because you live in a "hard water" area where the tap water is full of minerals and all that stuff. I live in a place with relatively soft and clean water like as an example limescale is never an issue in my house for stuff that use water like washers and kettles.
Look up Adrian Cousins' high contrast black and white Kodachrome reversal process, you can find it on RUclips. It's a Caffenol based process that uses some different chemicals, but produces really good results.
Hello , im kinda late to the party here . I have an AgfaChrome (color) and i don't know how it's supposed to be developed , would you be so kind to help me out?
I am a little confused. You are using the same developer for both steps? And once you bleach it you can pull the film out I'm normal light between steps? Can this be done with any film that has a good clear base?
Shane Sharp hi Shane! Yes-you use the same developer in the second step as you do in the first step. After about 1.5 mins in bleach, you can expose the film to light safely. You can reverse just about any black and white film. I’ve successfully done Tri-X, Plus-X, Illford, the list goes on.
Everything cool, but why do you have to dry the film on a drier thus risking scratches and dust, I dry mine directly in the spiral of the tank, just use a fan to do it quicker.
good point. The spiral already has the film nicely layed out without the emulsion touching anything, when the emulsion dries whilst touching something it leaves an imprint and dust does that too.
He does this specifically because 50 feet of film (Standard for Super8, probably 25 feet for Regular 8) is very inconvenient to hang anywhere, unless you got a bottomless pit available to hang your film to dry. His solution may not be the best solution, but it is a functional one.
@@Daviljoe193 I cant help but think you failed to get Petko's point of drying using the Tanks spiral. many Lomo tanks can carry 50 feet of film in one go. no need for your bottomless pit idea
@Thane Mac Thats why you add the film wetner chemical as described in the video (Kodaks Photo-flo) to stop water stains. you dont need the clothing air dryer
Hi. BW and color negatives are not for projecting, they're for printing or scanning. You can make a positive print (sometimes referred to as a work print) from your camera negative. That can be projected. The FPP fully supports movie film! Site: filmphotographystore.com/collections/movie-film / Podcasts: filmphotographyproject.com/podcast/
From some shady guy in the local alleyway. (You can get it on the Photographers' Formulary website, but it requires a DEA form signature, since it's dangerous, and the shipping will be $25 more than usual due to the hazards associated with the chemical. You may want to look into a 12% hydrogen peroxide bleach instead, since it's way safer, and isn't classed as a controlled substance. Just be warned that it takes longer to bleach with peroxide.)
If you want to get a roll of film scanned, let me know! Happy to help you out for all you do for the community! WWW.FRAMEDISCREET.COM Frame Discreet Instagram @frame_discreet Cheers! ♥ 🤓 Justin Lovell Associate Member of the Canadian Society of Cinematographers
Very good, thank you and I am a customer.
I would suggest another method for bleaching film, using far more common and safe chemicals. This is a 2 part bleach, using 4 common ingredients:
Part 1: Copper Sulfate, Salt, and Citric Acid. Heat 800ml of water until it is lukewarm. Mix 50 g of copper sulfate, 50g of salt, and 5g of Citric acid. Add water to 1 L. Mix until all powders dissolve.This solution is mainly CuCl3, and will dissolve aluminum, so be aware of this. Other than that, it is safe to handle, and only basic chemical safety precautions need to be taken.
Part 2: Ammonia 1+4. Regular 5% cleaning Ammonia works well. Ammonia is a somewhat dangerous chemical, but as long as you follow all directions on the label, and don’t mix it with any other chemicals, you will be fine. Although mixing part 1 and 2 should be avoided, if they are mixed, the reaction does not release any harmful gasses or chemicals.
Replace the dichromate bleach step with 5 minutes in part 1, and 3 minutes in part 2. Other than that, the process is the same. I hope this helps!
Any suggestions on what chemicals to use for Super 8 MM color reversal?
filmphotographystore.com/collections/darkroom-supplies/products/darkroom-supplies-fpp-rapid-e6-slide-development-kit
Video: ruclips.net/video/NVJuVzqvgrU/видео.htmlsi=a_MavzhVBHLtv96S
super informative video!
Hello thank you for great video I have a question, is clearing bath you are using in your video the same as stop bath??
No-the clearing bath is a different step and uses different chemistry.
thanks
@@owenthegenealogist
Excellent video. Owen's instructions make it easy for anyone to process reversal film the right way.
DUDE I LITERALLY HAVE JUST STARTED SEARCHING FOR THIS THIS WEEK AND THERE ARE NO VIDEOS AT ALL. Thank you so much!
Glad you liked it!
Would this chemistry work on Kodachrome 8mm to process it as black and white reversal film ?
Yes, the same process can be used to process old Kodachrome, but you'll need to play around with the develope times and, of course, add a step to remove the remjet which Kodachrome has. Though, I would argue (especially in the case of processing 'found' Kodachrome film that might have precious family memories on it) you should process Kodachrome as a negative which can produce a better result in SOME cases.
All I've been doing is dumping the film into a #116 Paterson tank with non-toxic Caffenol. I'm even too cheap to buy new film. I buy old color 8mm Kodak film and shoot at f/1.9.
So you don't have it on a spiral or anything? I guess you just use invert agitation? How do you keep the film from leaving marks on itself? (I have a three-reel 35mm tank, trying to avoid buying the lomo if I can)
This is the best educational video for Super 8 starters!!! Thanks for your effort!!
Excellent video and teaching. I have the lomo tank, shot some black and white reversal film but I just need the chemicals to make them at home. Would you recommend the CineStill Film CS2 Cine Simplified ECN 2-Bath Powder Kit to develop B&W Reversal film at home if you can't get the chemicals shown in the video? Thanks so much.
Hey Rene--ECN (or any color chemicals) will NOT work on Black and White Reversal film--at least, not in the intended way. You'll need to use the correct type of black and white reversal chemistry in order to get the proper results. If you are struggling to get the chemicals in this video, consider subsituting different things (for example, you may be able to get a potassium permanganate based bleach. There are also lots of videos out there on using hydrogen peroxide based bleaches.) If you are having issues getting the chemicals for the developer, it is possible to get great results from other standard black and white negative film developers as your first and 2nd developer.
Спасибо!
I've mixed up a batch of Kodak D-94a for Tri-X Super 8. However, Kodak's data sheet says use the first developing bath for 90 seconds and the second for 50 seconds? Are these times accurate for Tri-X Super 8 developed with D-94a in a Lomo tank?
That seems awfuly short to process a reversal film--but that being said, I have no personal experience using D-94. It is possible those times are correct but I cannot be sure as I've never used that specific process.
The internet suggests a 100W light source for a proper second exposure. I only have a 24W bathroom light tube. Does that work as well? And do I have to make a longer second exposure with only 24W?
you can safely use KMnO4 instead of dichromat
Why are you using dichromate bleach, considering other far less toxic bleaches are available? Is there any advantage to this over an oxidising bleach like hydrogen peroxide or potassium permanganate?
iNerdier theres a more thorough Super 8 developing video made by a German guy. He mentions that the less toxic bleaches don’t last nearly as long in storage as dichromate and the crystals are hard to completely dissolve
is there any 16mm black and white film that would use chemistry that still photos would use? I wanted to try and load 16mm film into a 110 cartridge and then develop it at home.
Any of the black and white films could be used. You don't need to do a reversal if you want a negative, just develop it in regular black and white developers. You can probably find times for the stocks, especially if it is available in 35mm as well.
Hi. I think tank is most expensive thing in all this stuff. But how much cost al ingredients to developing. Obviously if you gonna develop more than one film, the price will be decreased. But for start how much do I need spend?
Develop Movie Film at Home - filmphotographyproject.com/content/howto/2018/09/develop-bw-movie-film-home/
@@FilmPhotographyProject thank you very much.
Looking into a clearing/stop bath, i was told to use a mixture of water and sulfuric acid, and that you can simply use water, and run it through the tank a few times, but using sodium sulphite? That's sounds odd. Sodiumthiosulfate, or plain hypo, is the main ingredient in the fixer, and those two baths take care of very different jobs. I'm confused. I know that sodium sulphate and sodiumthiosulfate is not the same thing, they share big parts of the names, and the differences can't be too major.
The main purpose of the Sodium Sulfate (anhydrous), from what I have been told (I am NOT an expert in chemistry) is to help neutralize the dirchromate bleach and help to remove any of it that is still remaining on the film before the re-exposure step; this is why the film turns from yellow to white. I suppose it could be substituted for water, but I imagine that would take longer to achieve. Plus, the sulfate is super cheap, so why not!
@@owenthegenealogist Ah, of course. That makes sense :D
@@owenthegenealogist Are you sure you don't mean Sodium Sulphite (Na2So3)? Sodium Sulfate (Na2So4) don't seem to do much difference here, or did I miss something?
@ You are exactly right--it is Sodium Sulphite! It is funny you noticed this because once a lot time ago, I didn't pay attention and purchased Sodium SulFATE and noticed that it did not clear the film as well and was also much harder (for some reason) to mix.
Could I develop Scala 50 Adox with these chemicals ?
How did you remove the Remjet?
There's no Rem Jet on BW films. - Mike
@@FilmPhotographyProject Thank you for the Information I am new at the Format.
I also wanted to say thank you to the FPP for giving other People and me the option to shoot 8mm again.
It´s really cool what you are doing and stay as you are.
Warm greedings from Germany.
@@FilmPhotographyProject I´m so exited to shoot my first Film.
Those tanks are so expensive.
ikr, maybe theres a way to 3d print one?
what ASA does 8min at 68 F give?
Just about any ASA...I process 12ASA and 100 ASA using the same time and get perfect results always.
Thanks for this, I always wondered if there was an at-home method of doing this. The only thing I don't understand is why would you slice the film down the middle? And why don't you see us seam down the middle of the film when you're running it through the projector?
Owen slit the film because "Double 8" is 16mm film that's on a small reel. You shoot one pass in the camera and then flip it and shoot the other half. Once processed the lab slits the film down the middle and splices it together. Read more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_mm_film
Here's an article I wrote about the basics of Regular 8mm film :filmphotographyproject.com/content/howto/2018/07/skinny-regular-8mm-home-movie-film/
The Lomo tank can handle 16mm, Super 8mm, Double Super 8mm, and Regular 8mm film.
rip
Right, what type of quality do you get from 8 mm compared to copying to 720p? In other words, it a perfect scale for 8 mm.
Not sure about the question but our scans are minimal 1920x1080 HD.
@@FilmPhotographyProject looking at the quality of 8 mm, 720 looks fantastic!
Anyone know the shelf life of the bleach and how many rolls of film it can do
Can the mixed bleach be used more than once? Thanks
Yes! Dichromate bleach can be used and reused many times!
Owen M. McCafferty II wow that was a quick response! How many time are we talking for double 8 rolls assuming that the bottle has its air removed after each use?
@@burntoutelectronics The honest answer is I don't know the exact number for sure. But I will say that I've gotten between 8-15 rolls of double 8 out of my batches!
Is that bleach solution reusable? If so, how many reels can you get out of it? Also, what is the proper and safest way to dispose of it?
It is reusable. It really depends on what kind of film you process. Generally speaking, with fresh black and white reversal film, you should be able to get about 1,000 feet out of it, though you may notice that you have to extend bleach times towards the end of its life. But there are other factors--how and where you store it, how much time has passed between each roll you process etc. You'll notice that it starts to turn brown and then greenish as it starts to exhaust. The only way to safely dispose of it is to find a chemical recycling program near you that can handle it. It is not something you should throw down the drain. If you have to throw it down the drain (which I absolutely do not recommend as it is so bad for the environment to do so--and could be against local law depending on where you are at), you should add a good scoopful of sodium sulfate to it to help reduce the chromium. But again, you really should make the effort to find a chemical recycle or disposal program.
Chromates must never go down a drain, a septic tank or onto the ground.
Chromate solutions can be mixed into a sack of concrete which is landfilled after hardening.
NEVER send that to a wastewater plant or a leach field. In fact, I would highly recommend abandoning that bleaching compound altogether.
You didn’t use a hypo-clearing agent? Any reason? Thanks
I guess the distilled water is because you live in a "hard water" area where the tap water is full of minerals and all that stuff. I live in a place with relatively soft and clean water like as an example limescale is never an issue in my house for stuff that use water like washers and kettles.
Does this work with kodachrome 40?
No, its not reversal film
Kodachrome is reversal film. But the chemicals needed are basically no longer available.
Look up Adrian Cousins' high contrast black and white Kodachrome reversal process, you can find it on RUclips. It's a Caffenol based process that uses some different chemicals, but produces really good results.
Hello , im kinda late to the party here . I have an AgfaChrome (color) and i don't know how it's supposed to be developed , would you be so kind to help me out?
Hi. Depends how old it is. Feel free to send an email with info (and pic) of your Agfa. Michael@FilmPhotographyProject.com
I am a little confused. You are using the same developer for both steps? And once you bleach it you can pull the film out I'm normal light between steps? Can this be done with any film that has a good clear base?
Shane Sharp hi Shane! Yes-you use the same developer in the second step as you do in the first step. After about 1.5 mins in bleach, you can expose the film to light safely. You can reverse just about any black and white film. I’ve successfully done Tri-X, Plus-X, Illford, the list goes on.
@@owenthegenealogist thank you! I will have to give this a try soon, just need to get the bleach chemicals..
Everything cool, but why do you have to dry the film on a drier thus risking scratches and dust, I dry mine directly in the spiral of the tank, just use a fan to do it quicker.
good point. The spiral already has the film nicely layed out without the emulsion touching anything, when the emulsion dries whilst touching something it leaves an imprint and dust does that too.
He does this specifically because 50 feet of film (Standard for Super8, probably 25 feet for Regular 8) is very inconvenient to hang anywhere, unless you got a bottomless pit available to hang your film to dry. His solution may not be the best solution, but it is a functional one.
@@Daviljoe193 I cant help but think you failed to get Petko's point of drying using the Tanks spiral. many Lomo tanks can carry 50 feet of film in one go. no need for your bottomless pit idea
@Thane Mac Thats why you add the film wetner chemical as described in the video (Kodaks Photo-flo) to stop water stains. you dont need the clothing air dryer
We never used gloves in school...
nah I'd rather just pay $20. yeah it's really cheap around here
I guess you are using a Fomapan 2x8 100R 10m spool. Can I use the same quantity of developer for a 30m spool or do I have to use it 3x concentrated?
You would not need to add more concentrated, but you will need more chemistry in the tank to cover the film adequately
How do you project colour negatives?
Hi. BW and color negatives are not for projecting, they're for printing or scanning. You can make a positive print (sometimes referred to as a work print) from your camera negative. That can be projected. The FPP fully supports movie film! Site: filmphotographystore.com/collections/movie-film / Podcasts: filmphotographyproject.com/podcast/
Interesting technology but no way could I ever do that in my current set up. Nice to know the method and option is there, though.
You can hook the draining tube onto the tap to wash back the film with running water and pollute the chems less.
Is that the Colonial Belle on the Erie Canal!? Are you guys based out of Fairport?
Where do you get your potassium dichromate?
From some shady guy in the local alleyway. (You can get it on
the Photographers' Formulary website, but it requires a DEA form signature, since it's dangerous, and the shipping will be $25 more than usual due to the hazards associated with the chemical. You may want to look into a 12% hydrogen peroxide bleach instead, since it's way safer, and isn't classed as a controlled substance. Just be warned that it takes longer to bleach with peroxide.)
What would be the official name for this developing process ?
Black and White Reversal
always wondered how develop at home
really would like to get in to super8 soon
It's a lot easier than you think!
If you want to get a roll of film scanned, let me know! Happy to help you out for all you do for the community! WWW.FRAMEDISCREET.COM
Frame Discreet
Instagram @frame_discreet
Cheers! ♥ 🤓
Justin Lovell
Associate Member of the Canadian Society of Cinematographers
Thank you. This was extremely helpful
great video🎥😀