People get offended that IQ is genetic but never that every single NBA player is equally a genetic anomaly. I can't work hard and get to the NBA. But I am reasonably smart. You have to play to your talents whatever they are.
I don't think most people are saying that every person is equally "smart" or equally dispositioned. People have far different interests and even abilities. They are not based on race though. Intelligence doesn't affect most jobs above a certain level of basic IQ. Neither does it control how much money you make.
@@jonothandoeser I hope you are not wasting your time, explaining to people unable to understand you. For example, Chuck clearly mistakes correlation for causation. You’ll find people fighting for a narrative rather than seeking objective truth. Those people are rarely worth the headache.
I know the young man, son of a physician, whose family expected him to follow the general plan of college and professional career. The problem with the family was that he had no interest in doing that. Instead when he graduated from high school he took off to western North Dakota to participate in the oil shale boom. His plan was to build up a nest egg of money and then consider higher education from there. While working in the oil fields he became particularly adept at the repair and function of a particularly complex piece of machinery used in that industry. Last I checked he was getting paid $450,000 a year and was being courted by other firms offering 50% more than that to hire him away from his current employer. It may not be a college education but his is quite happy with his career choice and at age 23 he is out earning his father.
@@congero113 that’s what I thought too but then but then a family I know who is in the drilling business in the Bakken told me she just received three approvals to drill three new wells on federal leases. Could it be that Biden and Company have such a contempt for their voters that they think they can hold press conferences where they proclaim great advances but than actually not do anything on the ground? They have to deal with the reality that the world be a very hostile place if they handed pricing power to the Saudi's and the Russians. perhaps they are in it more for show than actual results
@@ssm59 You know he’s lying if his mouth is open. Nevertheless, I know a wall street money manager who says investment is being pulled from the whole oil industry. The writing is on the wall. Could be the leases were already in the process before the coelacanth in chief was sworn in.
there's a recent Stossel video which features a young woman who skipped college and decided instead to become a welder. Honing her skills and achieving her welding certification cost her approximately $3,000.... she now earns $150,000 per year as a welder. I earned my college degree in 1973. College degrees were a job-hunting license then, and they are a job-hunting license today. Some things never change!
"we" shouldn't be "running the education system". you should run yours, and i should run mine. let's be honest, that's what ends up happening in the end. i spend the last 2 decades unlearning govt propaganda.
And I have spent the last 52 years recovering my love of learning. Education back in the 1950s and 1960s when I served my time was stultifying. You crammed your head full of facts with the aim of vomiting them back out on a test, encouraged to cram even further the night before the test because that is what good students do. That is the worst way to retain knowlege, if only for the stress alone. I hated school, which moved so slowly, that I would fake sick and stay home reading my father's books, and I noticed that the things I read without pressure stayed with me. The schools today are even worse. My younger grandson calls school "hell" and amuses himself watching science videos on RUclips. He also plays Minecraft and can remain oriented in three dimensions in a way that is past me. He is seven. My older grandson was watching a RUclips video about what would have happened if the US had joined the Axis because Japan joined the Allies. My daughter-in-law reports him asking how WWIi really happened. He is almost eleven. Both read far above their grade level, partly because they were given tablets as toddlers and had to learn to read to navigate. It is a huge mistake to make learning unpleasant. I have a revolutionary idea about education, especially at the basic level, based on my recent ecperience playung match 3 games in my old age. I noticed how the levels begin very simply but become more difficult as each level is beaten. Within a short time I was spotting complex combinations and managing to project several moves ahead how to make them. And I was having fun. It seems to me that skilled pedagogues could turn reading and arithmetic into a trial and error game where the player advances by giving the right answer. You find the castle and save the princess by reading the ever more difficult signs, and there is a wise Mage you can consult to help you. This would be so much better than a teacher at a blackboard having the students learn by rote, and the students could move at their own pace rather than waiting for the rest of the class to catch up, or worse, being forced to move on to more difficult words before they understood the simple ones. Those who were slower to progress could be identified by what level they were on and given extra sttention. Learning by doing works better than learning by memorizing. When I was a teen, I was in favor of doing away with grades in favor of pass/fail, because either you have mastered a skill or you have not. I was naive. GPAs and the prestige of a college in the sense of who is admitted, give a prospective employer, who cannot administer an actual cognitive test, a broad idea of how fast the applicant will learn the specifics of the jobs they will perform, over and above the basic knowlege they already have.
"....if the schools JUST had MORE MONEY" = solves every single problem ever imagined!!!!!!!!! hahahahaa - I love how "parents" fall for this every 18 months - Vote for this bond, that bond, the library bond, or we'll TAKE AWAY _______ (spin the wheel: teachers, sports, auto/wood shop, music).
@@07wrxtr1 And it usually gets spent on a new sports stadium. I started out first grade in a one room school with tw teachers. It was cool because I could listen to whst the pthrr gtades ahead of me were being taught. Then we moved to a new two room school -- four grades per room and teacher-- wuth indoor plumbing. And guess what, we all learned how to read and do arithmetic.
I had a social studies/history teacher at my high school that said the majority of kids should be cut loose after 8th grade and left to pursue their passions.
Nobody has a passion at 12 years old. School isn't about producing geniuses; it's about conferring a sense of discipline through the most rebellious years of youth in order to prevent social chaos in the absence of religion, national purpose, or other unifying factors. I'm not saying the system is well designed, but we do need such a system.
That makes sense. How much of your education did you use past 8th grade. I could see more of an apprenticeship for high-school years that integrates the basics rrr with their professional interests.
@@johannpopper1493 An 8th grader would generally be 14 years old. By then you've gone through enough algebra, biology, English and history to know if you want to further pursue a specialty field further. If so, by all means stay in school. There are just so many kids not interested in that though. Let them hop on with a carpentry, HVAC, electrical, welder, heavy equipment operator, concrete, mechanic etc.... There are a bunch of high paying jobs that are high in demand in the trades fields. I went to college 25 years ago but in the summer I worked all over the U.S. installing fiber optic cable for a trenching company. Long hours but I was making $1,100 a week take home pay. There's a lot of opportunities out there.
Today in the UK there is an advert on Channel 4 encouraging kids to think things like this. It literally shows a black boy of about 7 years old saying that when he grows up, he will be the next Queen of England. The commercial agrees with him. Spoiler alert: he won't.
Couldn't agree more. Pumping your kids full of processed food-like products is a sure fire way of giving them mental and physical health issues years down the road.
Why do moms choose to do that is another issue with moms. Who the heck must look after the well-being of the children if both parents choose to be too busy to? Children need the time and care of their mothers because humans are designed like that. There’s species where the care falls on the father but those are few and far apart. If you are human then your day to day care is done by mothers. Mothers prepare the meals and teach their children what to eat and how to make meals. Obviously this has been neglected by the last 2 generations of mothers because they prefer to work away from their children and homes. Results are clear obesity, depression, diabetes and numerous other ills in society due to poor diets from the mothers that work and then buy take aways and processed meals.
The harm in telling a kid that they can be anything they want, is you may set them on an unrealistic path. They are set up to fail, which is a waste of time on top of being psychologically damaging. Encouraging a kid to aspire to realistically lofty goals teaches them the reward of real accomplishment.
@@WhoIsJohnGaltt Do you have no imagination of your own? How about your self? What are you good at and not good at? Maybe a person that faints at the sight of blood shouldn't be a surgeon, maybe a person that is paralyzed by the fear of height shouldn't be an iron worker. Maybe a 99.9% of people in the world shouldn't try to play professional football. Maybe a person that can not grasp advanced mathematical concepts shouldn't' be a physicist. Maybe a person that doesn't relate to children shouldn't be a teacher. Maybe someone that can't visualize shouldn't try to be an artist. It is healthy to encourage children's interests, because they may excel at them, but to tell a child that just because they like a sport that they will become a highly paid professional, when they clearly don't have the requisite skills, only sets them up for failure, disappointment and possible psychological damage. My brother is an accountant that doesn't know a screwdriver from a hammer (hyperbole). I am an engineer that has trouble balancing a checkbook. Was that really your question or are you just waiting for my specific examples to formulate some obtuse, abstract example of how I'm wrong? I hope this helps but I am done here.
We should also consider that hating school after a few years of starting it, is mostly a universal experience. At first all children love learning, then they enter the school system and in a very short period, they hate school and learning. Not only does the school system not help us become more intelligent, it destroys every little bit of desire to learn more. Obviously there is a small percentage that this does not apply to, again proving the point Dr. Murray is making, that the school system has nothing to do with intelligence. Also, if everyone has a college/university degree, over time, it diminishes the accolade of a degree in the first place, because it doesn't take being smart to get in and receive a degree. I have made that experience myself when job hunting when people say: yea yea, you have a degree, everyone has one; what experience do you have though!
Murray is a real treasure. I've read both The Bell Curve and Apollo. It was years before I said, wait a minute, same name, could it be the same guy? A story about the educational system. From a quite intelligent and well-schooled person I once knew. He was teaching "Math for Teachers" in his spare time at a second-tier state college. His students were high school math teachers. Whenever he would start on a discussion about something interesting related to the material they would glare at him, then interrupt and ask if this was going to be on the test. See, they were only there to get their master's degree, so they could get a mandatory raise. Actually learning something that might inspire them or heaven forbid, one of their students at some time in the future, was contrary to their goal of getting more money. Why waste effort thinking about anything that does not serve the goal. They absolutely did not want to hear about it. The term he coined was "aggressively ignorant." Don't tell us this stuff because WE DO NOT WANT TO KNOW! We don't actually care about the topic, we just want our raise. Those are the people who are teaching math in high school. Getting students to care about the material? Not their problem. Being interested in the material themselves? Get out of here. It's an inevitable result of universal compulsory school attendance.
I have seen far too many students at the community college level that seem to think they deserve all the money a pharmacist makes but cannot pass organic chemistry I (or II). They do not have minds for it. Instead, they have an average mind that envisions itself in a body that will make $90,000 a year, yet cannot find motivation or desire to sit down and study to learn. And even when they do, they just do not have the cognitive ability to unlock organic chemistry (and several other upper level science and math courses).
The conversation beginning around 8:10 makes me think of something that, I believe it was Orwell, once said that as a boy he thought the working class jobs were the most appealing i.e. blue collar jobs such as a train engineer etc. My point is that the disdain for non academic or non professional jobs has to be taught to our children; it is not by and large many children's natural inclination.
And where are those working class jobs now? Difficult to glamourize the call centre. And professional jobs were never talked about because to talk to working class kids (like me) about them would be and was stupid. Murray is wrong on all counts. Is he suggesting that working class kids need to be told that they are basically stupid like their parents and then teach them that cleaning floors is an honorable job? That's the kind of crap I expect in China or Cuba not the USA or the UK
Working class jobs include highly skilled and well payed trades in construction and engineering which require long apprenticeships. We used to provide millions of apprenticeships to school leavers, and now we don't we have a huge skill shortage in technical trades. Teachers no longer push kids into apprenticeships which they would be suited for, because they no longer exist as an option.
Nice interview. I think Murray underestimates the historical importance of his work. The forces he describes in the Bell Curve and his various other books are the undoing not only of the American empire, but of the Enlightenment project as a whole, and he was among the most compelling persons to push for recognizing the importance of those forces. Eventually, these forces will undo the American experiment, and with the benefit of hindsight, historians will find his work to have been the most important bellwether of the downfall.
@@timothymiddleton6651 I don't fine people hateful that rely on data for their opinions. I do find people hateful that hate based on the opinions they have been handed by others.
@@annsheridan12 Yeah. He explains that elsewhere fairly thoroughly, as he says no efforts anywhere have been able to change IQ results. That, to me, still leaves open the effects of very early parenting, from birth to age 4. I believe those years are the critical years for almost every aspect of personality.
@@christianlibertarian5488 you are wrong according to the scientific literature.. in the Colorado Adoption project 250 couples who gave up the baby at month one. 250 couples who adopted the babies. 250 control couples. IQ tests yearly for 30 years. Results: control couples highly correlated with the offspring in IQ Couples who gave up the baby highly correlated with offspring they gave up. The couples who adopted the baby from the first month of life had Zero IQ correlation with the adopted child.
I think he’s partly right (regarding increasing the IQ score). My score increased significantly after I started healing from my childhood trauma and it felt like the fog inside my head disappeared and I was able to think clearly. So if I assume that most people have some unhealed trauma, it means that if our society will focus on healing then the average IQ could indeed increase. Of course it doesn’t mean that everyone can be anything, but it does mean that maybe there’s something that can increase the IQ score by unlocking the full potential of each person. (I did some research and it seems that there’s a lot of people out there who are unaware of the fact that they even have trauma, and much of this is because of the specific capitalistic society that we live in). But other than that, it’s an amazing interview and I wish we could’ve have more compassionate people like him in our society ❤️ *English isn’t my first language so I hope it makes sense and i’m sorry if I have any grammar mistakes
I do so definitely agree with Murray that our educational system is declining. I saw it over the years that I was a high school teacher. The system definitely should emphasize in high school the wide range of occupations available to fit one’s talents and skills. And then provide those options. There is a desperate need for skilled craftspeople and the remuneration can be good to incredible. The remuneration for teachers of primary through high school is frequently low and the environment is stressful. So how can we attract excellent people to this profession?! The admission policies used by so many higher education schools replacing academic excellence with quotas is decreasing the quality of education for students. Hopefully, the pendulum will begin to swing back to a realistic and rational balance.
Southern New Hampshire University runs commercials in which their president intones, "In this world, although talent is equally distributed, opportunity is not. " You have to ask, would you attend a school who's leader says something so stupid ? Talent is equally distributed ?
It boils down to we all have specific weaknesses and talents and not everyone can do whatever they want. That's really it. We all know this on some level. To have Murray spell this out in a clear direct way upsets people. He is completely right though and it's not a big deal.
@@paysour3 What he says is that evolution has occurred between human regional groupings in such a way that it impacts IQ. H O W E V E R the difference in IQ between individuals is much greater than that between ethnic groups so again its not a big deal. In other terms If you. judge a person's worth purely by IQ then you are the asshole.
@@Napalm6b that's not how it's being applied. Tucker Carlson is using it as a way to distinguish between the races and since he did not stop in I can assume it is his intent.
@@paysour3 Do you happen to have a link to when Tucker has done that? I've only seen some of his shows and I don't remember him saying anything like that but I could have missed it.
@@paysour3 Absolutely not! Murray says IQ is strongly correlated with monetary achievement in the US. That is what the Bell Curve is about, and he pours mountains of data at the poor reader to prove it. That is not a racial issue.
As a retired elementary teacher, I can state that most of my colleagues voiced having high expectations for students, but in reality their action proved to me that they have very low expectations for students, especially for children of color.
You can't do anything you want but you can improve your life. I may not be able to run a marathon but if I train for one I will be fitter than if I never tried.
The worst thing about it is so much effort and discussion is to teach children more of the stuff we use to asses intelligence rather than, if we can only teach them to learn so much, what are the most valuable things to teach them to improve lives of the students.
13:11 The CEOs of Twitter and Facebook as classic examples of that: very competent in their technical areas but never properly exposed to ethics, history, and all that. Because the monumental mistakes they are making (they are basically incapable of leading their companies through today's cultural and political mood) are mostly due to that kind of ignorance.
@@HomoVastans I don't think Mark Zuckerberg had any connections of that kind, he was just a passionate technical nerd. He would be good heading a sophisticated instrument company of some kind. As a leader of Facebook he is useless.
@@Da1PrettyT, let me guess, you’ve read none of his books. I’ve read two, _Losing Ground_ and _Coming Apart_, and numerous articles he’s written. He’s not a racist. He goes where the facts lead him and isn’t afraid to state the truth, regardless of how unpopular it may be.
I can see why he's deemed dangerous. Why would you accept someone with logic and sensibility educate the children of the nation if you're running the show, and a show it is.
So Murray says the future of our country depends on how we educate the gifted. He then says we better teach them history, ethics, and religion. Is he kidding. the history of christianity is devoid of ethics.
@@ecstanton5833 Christianity doesn't have ethics?!? Is this: 1.) Are you taking some bad examples and pretending that's a complete average? 2.) Or can you actually show kids who were raised Christian widely on average scored less ethically than kids who were not raised as Christians? (And there's no other major variables that could account for this) I highly suspect it's #1.
@@paysour3 More ad hominem copy and pasted all over. When you don't have any rational counterarguments, just resort to attacking the messenger instead of the message using epithets such as "bigot" and "racist." You've got nothing.
@@Grumpollion I can easily see that he did not follow acceptable empirical scientific methods to come to his conclusions. His statistical analysis is severely flawed and his conclusions are based on wishful thinking. The scientific Community does not accept this kind of quackery and I call it what it is. He is a bigot trying to tell other bigots what they want to hear.
I very much wanted this interview to last much longer! I've not followed Mr. Murray to any great extent but I really enjoyed hearing his perspectives. Especially on religion and aging.
Always surprised that I never hear about the system in many European countries. Many European counties, if not most, are very clear about channeling kids into "professional" and "technical" tracks. In other words, get a university degree vs get a technical education. Both lead to good economic outcomes, coupled with self-respect. Of course, sometimes errors are made - especially pushing a potential university-calibre kid into a technical track. So, they offer what the Swiss call a "bridge", where someone who really wants to can switch tracks.
Maybe having a preconceived idea as to what makes a person valuable is a huge problem. making people feel that unless they have a university education, they are worth less than others. What is important is to find out what you enjoy, what you are good at and how you can make a career out of that. And that is what education should be about - particularly in the later years at school
Its the State political and economic system calling the shots. There's no economic or political advantage according to society's leaders... to nurture future commune-builders or tree sitters or uber delivery boys
He is a covert child abuser. False rationality at work here, the prize of very small minds. Murry is a child abuser in drag. He has no right to even be heard. He celebrates his own existential failure in everything he writes. He endorses the American economic/political status quo and lies about it, and even his thoughts about children are obscene. And of course we are ALL too stupid, busy or apathetic to see it. Its our own children of course so why SHOULD we care? Only in America would he even get an income for the trash he spews...of course the "facts" in his books are on some level true. But who else talks and acts like this man? NO ONE NO ONE NO ONE. Most people have more HUMILITY lol
Not everyone is going to be a superstar. I wasn’t . Never thought I would be. But I like myself and am happy with who I became. We should be teaching kids to follow their “bliss”, what they are good at and what they find satisfaction in doing. Some people like my little brother are “kissed by the faeries” and succeed even when they don’t try. The rest of us just get on with life. My twin brother on the other hand was one of those gifted high iq people, whose life was destroyed in a car accident at 19 when he incurred fractured skull and never gained back full function. He was destroyed when he realized he would never be what everyone originally thought he would be. It was sad to watch. He turned to drugs.
Define "superstar." Unless you're going to be a top 5 most powerful politician in the country or a media/sports celebrity, 99% of Americans aren't going to know who you are. You can be a superstar plumber whose business becomes highly sought after all across your county. How is that any less of a superstar than some plug lawyer who "made it" by being a no-name underling at a white shoe firm?
@@Matthew-cw3gn Most of those "Superstars" are stupid and couldn't engineer the stadiums they play in if their money and lives depended on it and a good plumber is worth more to me then one of those idiots!!!! I like having running water that stays in the pipes and don't like fixing those problems because I hate getting wet; on the other hand I can wire stuff all day long!!!!
I'm sorry this happened to your brother. I'm a twin myself, so I can imagine the effect of this tragedy on both of you. But since you are and were twins, I'm wondering if identical, and thus why you weren't felt to have the same gifts that endowed your brother.
What a humble and genuine person. So rare for people of the scholarly proffession. He can talk about data, fact and logical reasoning in the same sentence that he talks about local, communal values based on common wisdom. A truly brilliant mind, across means of thinking
He has beat out the moron-competitors in his silly life...what's not to be smug and satisfied about? His work celebrates his smallness. He has never contributed ONE THING to humane child development. He has actually impaired it. Who has to care about the ******? HUH HUH HUH??
20:15 I have to say in this regard, what is harder to imagine: the idea that "nothing" follows after you die or the idea that "something" follows after you die? The average human has no idea what "nothing" means. Some would describe it as complete darkness or something that is invisible. But no one can really describe it perfectly. So I think Murray is right, whatever follows after death is really interesting.
I love watching surgeries. My wife had a C-section some years ago and it was amazing to watch. I stepped outside the Curtin I was suppose to stay behind and just watched in a awe and amazement. I DO NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY to be a doctor. I love it, I find it interesting but I cannot accomplish academically the things I must in order to attain the status of doctor needless to say surgeon. However, I do really well within the therapeutic stratosphere. I just seem to get the human condition and understand it almost innately. I did well in my studies and in my advanced degree. The very surgeon who conducted the C-section on my wife had the bedside manner of a rock. He was a brilliant surgeon and did very well with a very complicated situation but put him in my world and he would fail. Some of us are not intellectually capable of attaining certain fields and others fail to have the capacity to function in others. That's life how is this controversial?
Funny, I've thought that sure, I can be a surgeon. Just give me twenty years instead of twelve. I do know some bright assholes who went for their medical degrees in a mid-career shift. For me, I have neither the mental bandwidth nor ambition for that kind of lateral move.
“Anyone can be anything that they want to be if they get the right education and the right opportunities.” Maybe some people in the educational system say that, but not everyone says that. It is a lie to say that they do.
Premature births and other perinatal factors play a huge part in IQ. The majority of special education students were born before 38 weeks. Groups with high IQ's have much lower rates of perinatal complications, while low I Q groups are the opposite. Dealing with this problem could really help with some of the gap.
Getting a handle on prematurity is more difficult than I thought. There are a wide variety of causes for prematurity, some of which you can influence, others not. Worse, it is not always clear which is which.
@@christianlibertarian5488 but few things are more costly to society than an intellectually impaired person. Research may uncover new treatments. Nurse and social worker visits to high risk mothers have decreased premature births and preeclampsia in some studies. It makes sense because women without TLC and good support have more perinatal problems.
I believe that same circulatory issues that allow black people to survive in harsh conditions with many parasites are also the same problems that cause preeclampsia, stroke and other related issues in the black community. I'm sure medical interventions can be found to offset these circulatory issues. It would help if the schools would teach young people that one of their biggest responsibilities in life is to have healthy, productive children and teach them home economics, shop classes, consumer math, child development etc. Encouraging young girls to work as live-in nannies while learning a career would help them, and placing young guys to stay with married couples with children while learning a trade could help them learn the social skills needed so that their children aren't born with exceptional stress and substance abuse. It would be good if Christian colleges that are struggling started vocational schools for men on their campuses and had them go to the Bible classes and chapel with the regular college students. Most Christian colleges are 2/3 female, and bringing lots of young men preparing for good paying trades would make the colleges more attractive. The rules that do not allow traditional gender roles in education need to be modified so that people who want to follow that track can, and poor students can learn what they didn't learn at home.
I think that he overrates the value of the IQ test as a measurement of intelligence because people can learn techniques so that they can substantially improve their scores on IQ tests. That poses the question of what it actually measures. Does it measure, to some extent, familiarity with general useful techniques for scoring well on tests? I don't dispute the idea that some people are more intelligent than others, but I don't know of any reliable way to connect intelligence with race, if you don't exclude other possible influences on scores such as poor nutrition, the stresses of poverty and fears of abuse from family members, etc. Of course Murray is useful to those who claim that there is no purpose in improving the lives of poor minorities since they have less "potential" than their white superiors.
As a foreign born and raised, I’ve always been fascinated with the USA obsession with “quality education “ as THE ONLY tool to succeed in life. This belief that if you provide the SAME quality education to all children, they will ALL be to able solve a trigonometry problem. Now, don’t get me wrong, quality education IS great; IS important. But SMARTS is what will make the difference between making education a successful tool or not, because education is exactly that, a tool to provide more information to the brain that is already hardwired to be intelligent or not. Equity, even equality achievement, is PLAIN AND SIMPLE, IMPOSSIBLE. Occam’s razor : if all brains were hardwire the same way, we would all be Mozart’s, or we would all be mules. This is not racism. It’s common sense. Why is it so hard for so many to understand this simple concept?
Well, the foundational principle of the country is "All men are created equal." Now, that meant all are to be considered as having equal rights under law, but it often doesn't get taken that way.
No, we have to give a proper education. Thats the problem. All kids should be ok to good in math, for example. Thats something we should do. The rest is their own desire, luck or anything similar.
I have read his work and agree with most of his work. His research is on target, his analysis of the public school is correct. He doesn’t understand what it take to improve a student’s academic skills to excel on SAT, ACT or AP in preparation for college. Thomas Sowell is a much better read and knows what needs to be done to improve public education.
If i had been able to skip most of my High-school education and immediately jump into an apprenticeship position id be far more wealthy and autonomous than i am right now. Spending 4 years prepping for an institution that you end up not going into is as much of a waste of time as it is a penalty to those kids who will go in a different direction. I see little point at all in forcing people to partake in things that they have zero interest or compatibility with. If you don’t have some semblance of consent from both parties you just aren’t going to ever get anywhere. All you’ll get is someone following the orders of another simply because “its the law” or “it is what it is”. In either case there is no higher reason and those types of students recognize this and it can easily cause many problems and real enmity between people and authority that otherwise would not exist. Its like having to spend five days a week in the BMV.
The environment can enable opportunity. IQ will limit capacity. Healthy environments will bring forth stable personality and with some persistence and an average IQ, will probably lead to happy employment in life. Nothing is guaranteed and nothing is 'as of right'.
It's amazing how different and thoughtful this man is as compared to the racist caricature that the media has used in an attempt to marginalize and "cancel" him with. In any event, thankfully, they have not been successful, as he just seems to brush it off and keep chugging along in that inimitable, low key style of his. His interview with Sam Harris about three years ago was what actually directed me down the rabbit hole of truth. I'm still in there digging, and I don't suspect I'll ever be able to get out now. It's been a somewhat shocking journey, but enlightening and rewarding, as it confirmed for me many long held ideas on the nature of things that are dismissed by the politically correct media, education and business "complex".
Important: When authors such as Murray, or anyone, write or speak about "genetics" and how genetics determine things, understand that environment and stress levels CAN and DO affect which part of a gene is expressed. Neuroendocrinologist Robert Sapolsky discusses this in his work.
A key question here is, in which phase of human development (i.e. gene expression and critical neural development) is environment most important? The answer seems to be from gestation through perhaps the first 18-24 months I think it is fair to say that we are only beginning to understand just how critical this period is and its impact on all of the underlying complexities in childhood cognitive development. What we do know is, the so-called underprivileged children fare much worse in this period of life and politically, dealing with it is a "third rail" issue, and for good reasons.
By the way, Charles Murray has written extensively about the likely impact of advances in our understanding of genetics and human development. In short, the WOKEsters are not going to be comfortable with what is learned since it likely will force them to face the 800 pound gorilla in the room, which is very early stage childhood development (i.e. gestation through 24 months), and the probability that if we fail here, subsequent interventions will be of much less benefit. In other words, who actually has the child and how they handle the first 24 months plus gestation must be "fixed", whatever that means in practice.
I don't believe we all have the capacity to be anything we want, but I do prefer a system that presumes that is true. Of course if you take an IQ test and it reveals certain strengths and weaknesses, you should use that information in moving forward as an individual. But I don't want the government to come in and say because of the results, one person will be a civil servant and another an astrophysicist. I think most people would agree on that. We have to have the independence to fail and learn as we go. I don't think any of this has to do with bigotry. It's a philosophical difference as to the nature of human independence in an organized society.
Exactly. You've now figured out why no one in psychology or academia cares for this topic. You will find the most highest IQ _'races'_ don't care for this metric simply for that reason. Why create a system of determinism if it risks the possibility of getting an absurdly talented _low IQ_ mathematician or an incredibly _high IQ_ jazz musician? People think those that don't care for this topic do so cause it's some kind of forbidden knowledge but the truth is it doesn't matter. MENSA members don't collectively contribute to a more rewarding society.
Like the hippocratic oath, its not the teacher's job to decide that some students can't do anything they want to do. Kids knows this by the time they are 10. This is not the problem of education. No chid left behind is making sure kids can do very basic stuff - unless they are learning disabled (or in Murray's words low IQ). Murray is a very smart guy - but his arguments - like anyone's has holes. Losing ground was his best book - the rest is too enamored of IQ.
The ad copy of No CHild Left Behind was that it would make sure all kids could do basic stuff. The actual implementation of NCLB was a set of bureaucratic sticks and carrots that corrupted education in favor of meeting artificial metrics. I was a math teacher at a public high school ~10 years ago, I remember about half way through one school year I was asked to put away the Algebra II books and to use a test prep book for the annual exams. This was in the school leadership's interest and did not serve the students well.
@@NA-oo4lsI see. Well, getting back to Murray's argument. You should set high expectations for children until they prove otherwise. That is not the issue.
That should be the teacher's job, as much as it is the physician's to use the principles of triage to save whom he can when many are in need of saving but not all can be saved. We cannot continue to waste resources pursuing unlikely outcomes.
AOC is a good example of someone who went to a prestigious school and should not have. She got elected cause shes young and pretty. Some because of their skin color. The difference between some Congress people is un believable
@@Da1PrettyT hundreds of millions in tax savings, which would be paid down the road. lost billions in construction costs, good jobs, and ancillary jobs. Let's not forget there was a competition for that project. Only a dem could see that way.
@@zodglubby That amazon deal would have cost New Yorkers $3.5 billion while using up the local infrastructure, gentrifying a whole neighborhood, driving out local families and causing the worst traffic nightmares in NYC history. We elect politicians just so they can turn down -ish like this. God bless AOC You must be on meth.
I cant help but point out that Trump got elected in part because he was famous and rich. If there was ever anyone unqualified for that job, it was him.
I remember I got into a big argument with an old girlfriend who was a teacher, simply because I made the outrageous claim that some kids are smarter than others.
The hi/lo tracking approach is used throughout Europe. One gets sent to university, or to vocational college. It's not controversial. Americans need to stop arguing in terms of American Exceptionalism and other "isms'. Take a colorblind approach to people, tax the rich, have good social services which take care of all. That's it. That's what you need.
Exactly, in Europe it's more about being a useful member of the society, be it inventing new things or shoveling snow off the sidewalk. Everybody contributes what they can. Ironically, I think this is something America sorely lacks.
It would seem to me very logical that the education system would espouse a philosophy that every child can be anything they want with proper education and environment. With such a philosophy, new methods of education can always be experimented with making any Education Department seemingly indispensable.
I don’t know. Most professional success doesn’t seem to come down to IQ. You don’t have to be a genius for most, even high earning, jobs. Discipline is more important.
How about the irony of Professor Murray’s rise to academic prominence through the publication of The Bell Curve having occurred for a reason other than The Bell Curve’s conclusion that intelligence is the stuff of success; the death of his mentor.
engineering yes, but architecture? Other than a lot of people willing to go and a few getting that chance (mostly bc they do not draw well enough) I do not associate architects with high intellectual standards... .
He's right. Kids are all different. I sure as hell couldn't play basketball but I was good at track and history and other stuff. My kids were all different in various aptitudes. The schools try to enforce lies that do far more harm than good. The internet and AI robots will soon replace the entire educational system -- and none too soon.
I never thought about it before, but is the increased economic emphasis on intelligence the reason why people stopped making fun of nerds and smart people? In old media, the smart kid at school was always bullied. That's completely different now. When you think of somebody being taunted for their brainpower, you only think what a jackass the instigator is.
Prairie Home Companion - Remember that show? "Where all of the children are above average!" I am a retired School Psychologist and am now teaching music and playing jazz guitar - a lot. I administered IQ tests almost everyday of my adult life and I got pretty darned good at interpreting results. Right now, I don't think I could remember all of the subtests of the WISC or KABC and I kind of don't want to. I am very familiar with Charles' work and am one of the few School Psychs who actually read The Bell Curve. I totally agree with about 85% of what he says, but I don't buy his views on religion.
"There are about four kids in that school that can be whatever they want to be. Everybody else better learn to weld." --Chris Rock
People get offended that IQ is genetic but never that every single NBA player is equally a genetic anomaly. I can't work hard and get to the NBA. But I am reasonably smart. You have to play to your talents whatever they are.
Yep. And the NBA collective IQ is.........................................very low !!!!
I don't think most people are saying that every person is equally "smart" or equally dispositioned. People have far different interests and even abilities. They are not based on race though. Intelligence doesn't affect most jobs above a certain level of basic IQ. Neither does it control how much money you make.
@@jonothandoeser Wrong - IQ varies by race & ethnicities.
@@jonothandoeser I hope you are not wasting your time, explaining to people unable to understand you.
For example, Chuck clearly mistakes correlation for causation. You’ll find people fighting for a narrative rather than seeking objective truth. Those people are rarely worth the headache.
@@rensoriginal379 Yes, I am doing just that!
I know the young man, son of a physician, whose family expected him to follow the general plan of college and professional career. The problem with the family was that he had no interest in doing that. Instead when he graduated from high school he took off to western North Dakota to participate in the oil shale boom. His plan was to build up a nest egg of money and then consider higher education from there. While working in the oil fields he became particularly adept at the repair and function of a particularly complex piece of machinery used in that industry. Last I checked he was getting paid $450,000 a year and was being courted by other firms offering 50% more than that to hire him away from his current employer. It may not be a college education but his is quite happy with his career choice and at age 23 he is out earning his father.
Too Bad Beijing Biden will be doing everything he can to destroy the oil shale revolution.
Too Bad Beijing Biden will be doing everything he can to destroy the shale oil business.
@@congero113 that’s what I thought too but then but then a family I know who is in the drilling business in the Bakken told me she just received three approvals to drill three new wells on federal leases. Could it be that Biden and Company have such a contempt for their voters that they think they can hold press conferences where they proclaim great advances but than actually not do anything on the ground? They have to deal with the reality that the world be a very hostile place if they handed pricing power to the Saudi's and the Russians. perhaps they are in it more for show than actual results
@@ssm59 You know he’s lying if his mouth is open. Nevertheless, I know a wall street money manager who says investment is being pulled from the whole oil industry. The writing is on the wall. Could be the leases were already in the process before the coelacanth in chief was sworn in.
there's a recent Stossel video which features a young woman who skipped college and decided instead to become a welder.
Honing her skills and achieving her welding certification cost her approximately $3,000.... she now earns $150,000 per year as a welder.
I earned my college degree in 1973. College degrees were a job-hunting license then, and they are a job-hunting license today. Some things never change!
The blank slate theory has done immense damage and will continue to do so.
@Bella the belief that everyones starts with same cognition and is influenced only by what they learn outside.
@Bella Yes it denies essentialism.
@Bella essentialism = essence = determinism if you want.
Its when you think that being reside in genes etc rather than in exterior stimulus
@Bella lol my pleasure
"Blank slate" is a polite euphemism for "equality." People aren't equal, but we aren't allowed to say so.
"we" shouldn't be "running the education system". you should run yours, and i should run mine. let's be honest, that's what ends up happening in the end. i spend the last 2 decades unlearning govt propaganda.
Our education system is based on the Prussian model & it's designed to indoctrinate children into the religion of statism.
The contempt the Left displays for minorities is eye-popping.
And I have spent the last 52 years recovering my love of learning. Education back in the 1950s and 1960s when I served my time was stultifying. You crammed your head full of facts with the aim of vomiting them back out on a test, encouraged to cram even further the night before the test because that is what good students do. That is the worst way to retain knowlege, if only for the stress alone. I hated school, which moved so slowly, that I would fake sick and stay home reading my father's books, and I noticed that the things I read without pressure stayed with me. The schools today are even worse. My younger grandson calls school "hell" and amuses himself watching science videos on RUclips. He also plays Minecraft and can remain oriented in three dimensions in a way that is past me. He is seven. My older grandson was watching a RUclips video about what would have happened if the US had joined the Axis because Japan joined the Allies. My daughter-in-law reports him asking how WWIi really happened. He is almost eleven. Both read far above their grade level, partly because they were given tablets as toddlers and had to learn to read to navigate. It is a huge mistake to make learning unpleasant.
I have a revolutionary idea about education, especially at the basic level, based on my recent ecperience playung match 3 games in my old age. I noticed how the levels begin very simply but become more difficult as each level is beaten. Within a short time I was spotting complex combinations and managing to project several moves ahead how to make them. And I was having fun. It seems to me that skilled pedagogues could turn reading and arithmetic into a trial and error game where the player advances by giving the right answer. You find the castle and save the princess by reading the ever more difficult signs, and there is a wise Mage you can consult to help you. This would be so much better than a teacher at a blackboard having the students learn by rote, and the students could move at their own pace rather than waiting for the rest of the class to catch up, or worse, being forced to move on to more difficult words before they understood the simple ones. Those who were slower to progress could be identified by what level they were on and given extra sttention. Learning by doing works better than learning by memorizing.
When I was a teen, I was in favor of doing away with grades in favor of pass/fail, because either you have mastered a skill or you have not. I was naive. GPAs and the prestige of a college in the sense of who is admitted, give a prospective employer, who cannot administer an actual cognitive test, a broad idea of how fast the applicant will learn the specifics of the jobs they will perform, over and above the basic knowlege they already have.
"....if the schools JUST had MORE MONEY" = solves every single problem ever imagined!!!!!!!!! hahahahaa - I love how "parents" fall for this every 18 months - Vote for this bond, that bond, the library bond, or we'll TAKE AWAY _______ (spin the wheel: teachers, sports, auto/wood shop, music).
@@07wrxtr1 And it usually gets spent on a new sports stadium. I started out first grade in a one room school with tw teachers. It was cool because I could listen to whst the pthrr gtades ahead of me were being taught. Then we moved to a new two room school -- four grades per room and teacher-- wuth indoor plumbing. And guess what, we all learned how to read and do arithmetic.
I had a social studies/history teacher at my high school that said the majority of kids should be cut loose after 8th grade and left to pursue their passions.
Agree with this so much.
Nobody has a passion at 12 years old. School isn't about producing geniuses; it's about conferring a sense of discipline through the most rebellious years of youth in order to prevent social chaos in the absence of religion, national purpose, or other unifying factors. I'm not saying the system is well designed, but we do need such a system.
That makes sense. How much of your education did you use past 8th grade. I could see more of an apprenticeship for high-school years that integrates the basics rrr with their professional interests.
@@johannpopper1493 An 8th grader would generally be 14 years old. By then you've gone through enough algebra, biology, English and history to know if you want to further pursue a specialty field further. If so, by all means stay in school. There are just so many kids not interested in that though. Let them hop on with a carpentry, HVAC, electrical, welder, heavy equipment operator, concrete, mechanic etc.... There are a bunch of high paying jobs that are high in demand in the trades fields. I went to college 25 years ago but in the summer I worked all over the U.S. installing fiber optic cable for a trenching company. Long hours but I was making $1,100 a week take home pay. There's a lot of opportunities out there.
@@OptimalOwl High school.
Signs of the times: to spell out something that it is common sense but upsets our modern sensibilities, so it gets equated with hate.
In this new era where bigots do not wear white sheets we need to know how racist thinks.
@@paysour3 . . .now they just hold up Black Lives Matter signs.
Let's just forget the fact that Murray is king of spurious data and unproven truisms.
@@Da1PrettyT casual ad hom is a great way to be ignored in sensible conversation. You are going to be ignored. Proof is required.
@@Xplora213 Murray is a nazi and there is nothing sensible about that.
Today in the UK there is an advert on Channel 4 encouraging kids to think things like this. It literally shows a black boy of about 7 years old saying that when he grows up, he will be the next Queen of England. The commercial agrees with him. Spoiler alert: he won't.
If the world is this woke now who tf nows bro what would happen in 50 years may God help us
@RandomEcom AfD is winning so...
What the world needs more than anything right now is mothers that can cook healthy menus for their children.
Nailed it. And if no mother the real thing that matters is shunning American processed foods.
Couldn't agree more. Pumping your kids full of processed food-like products is a sure fire way of giving them mental and physical health issues years down the road.
How about parents. It shouldn't be on the mom only. Especially when most moms are working just as many hours outside if the home as the fathers.
Why do moms choose to do that is another issue with moms. Who the heck must look after the well-being of the children if both parents choose to be too busy to? Children need the time and care of their mothers because humans are designed like that. There’s species where the care falls on the father but those are few and far apart. If you are human then your day to day care is done by mothers. Mothers prepare the meals and teach their children what to eat and how to make meals. Obviously this has been neglected by the last 2 generations of mothers because they prefer to work away from their children and homes. Results are clear obesity, depression, diabetes and numerous other ills in society due to poor diets from the mothers that work and then buy take aways and processed meals.
Or fathers. Or both.
The harm in telling a kid that they can be anything they want, is you may set them on an unrealistic path. They are set up to fail, which is a waste of time on top of being psychologically damaging. Encouraging a kid to aspire to realistically lofty goals teaches them the reward of real accomplishment.
What are realistic goals?
Affirmative action does the same.
@@WhoIsJohnGaltt That depends on the individual and that is kind of the point.
@@albatross5466 what would be an example of realistic goals for two different individuals that one would find realistic while the other wouldn’t?
@@WhoIsJohnGaltt Do you have no imagination of your own? How about your self? What are you good at and not good at? Maybe a person that faints at the sight of blood shouldn't be a surgeon, maybe a person that is paralyzed by the fear of height shouldn't be an iron worker. Maybe a 99.9% of people in the world shouldn't try to play professional football. Maybe a person that can not grasp advanced mathematical concepts shouldn't' be a physicist. Maybe a person that doesn't relate to children shouldn't be a teacher. Maybe someone that can't visualize shouldn't try to be an artist. It is healthy to encourage children's interests, because they may excel at them, but to tell a child that just because they like a sport that they will become a highly paid professional, when they clearly don't have the requisite skills, only sets them up for failure, disappointment and possible psychological damage. My brother is an accountant that doesn't know a screwdriver from a hammer (hyperbole). I am an engineer that has trouble balancing a checkbook. Was that really your question or are you just waiting for my specific examples to formulate some obtuse, abstract example of how I'm wrong? I hope this helps but I am done here.
He hit the nail on the head with the remarks about Harvard 2 years before they were exposed for horrific racism/anti-semitism.....
Thanks for bringing this very special man to a relatively new audience. May his works last and have influence for many years to come.
Great to see an interview with this villified man.
Vilified by people with a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.
I could listen to Charles Murray speak for hours.
Yes, he proves that he is the elitist bigot that most of us believe him to be. . .
"A good marriage is as good as it gets . . ." Wisdom GOLD!
Well how many other ones has he had to compare it to? Such a goofy subjective statement 😂
There’s only one reality. Either one accepts it and lives accordingly or suffer the consequences of not doing this. This explains everything.
no "it" doesn't.
What a genuine, excellent conversation. Thank you 🙏
We should also consider that hating school after a few years of starting it, is mostly a universal experience. At first all children love learning, then they enter the school system and in a very short period, they hate school and learning. Not only does the school system not help us become more intelligent, it destroys every little bit of desire to learn more. Obviously there is a small percentage that this does not apply to, again proving the point Dr. Murray is making, that the school system has nothing to do with intelligence. Also, if everyone has a college/university degree, over time, it diminishes the accolade of a degree in the first place, because it doesn't take being smart to get in and receive a degree. I have made that experience myself when job hunting when people say: yea yea, you have a degree, everyone has one; what experience do you have though!
Murray is a real treasure. I've read both The Bell Curve and Apollo. It was years before I said, wait a minute, same name, could it be the same guy?
A story about the educational system. From a quite intelligent and well-schooled person I once knew.
He was teaching "Math for Teachers" in his spare time at a second-tier state college. His students were high school math teachers. Whenever he would start on a discussion about something interesting related to the material they would glare at him, then interrupt and ask if this was going to be on the test. See, they were only there to get their master's degree, so they could get a mandatory raise. Actually learning something that might inspire them or heaven forbid, one of their students at some time in the future, was contrary to their goal of getting more money. Why waste effort thinking about anything that does not serve the goal. They absolutely did not want to hear about it. The term he coined was "aggressively ignorant." Don't tell us this stuff because WE DO NOT WANT TO KNOW! We don't actually care about the topic, we just want our raise.
Those are the people who are teaching math in high school. Getting students to care about the material? Not their problem. Being interested in the material themselves? Get out of here. It's an inevitable result of universal compulsory school attendance.
No, prof. Murray, I think your legacy will be remember for many, many years. You have provided a great service not only to America, but to the world.
I have seen far too many students at the community college level that seem to think they deserve all the money a pharmacist makes but cannot pass organic chemistry I (or II). They do not have minds for it. Instead, they have an average mind that envisions itself in a body that will make $90,000 a year, yet cannot find motivation or desire to sit down and study to learn. And even when they do, they just do not have the cognitive ability to unlock organic chemistry (and several other upper level science and math courses).
Intelligence is like beauty. It can be squandered but it cannot be earned.
The conversation beginning around 8:10 makes me think of something that, I believe it was Orwell, once said that as a boy he thought the working class jobs were the most appealing i.e. blue collar jobs such as a train engineer etc. My point is that the disdain for non academic or non professional jobs has to be taught to our children; it is not by and large many children's natural inclination.
And where are those working class jobs now? Difficult to glamourize the call centre. And professional jobs were never talked about because to talk to working class kids (like me) about them would be and was stupid. Murray is wrong on all counts. Is he suggesting that working class kids need to be told that they are basically stupid like their parents and then teach them that cleaning floors is an honorable job? That's the kind of crap I expect in China or Cuba not the USA or the UK
Working class jobs include highly skilled and well payed trades in construction and engineering which require long apprenticeships. We used to provide millions of apprenticeships to school leavers, and now we don't we have a huge skill shortage in technical trades.
Teachers no longer push kids into apprenticeships which they would be suited for, because they no longer exist as an option.
Nice interview. I think Murray underestimates the historical importance of his work. The forces he describes in the Bell Curve and his various other books are the undoing not only of the American empire, but of the Enlightenment project as a whole, and he was among the most compelling persons to push for recognizing the importance of those forces. Eventually, these forces will undo the American experiment, and with the benefit of hindsight, historians will find his work to have been the most important bellwether of the downfall.
I love listening to Charles Murray. He has a gentle, deep voice that he uses to convey fairly powerful thoughts.
I suspected that he has learned to convey heightened humility so that people don’t quickly assume he is hateful. Kind of sad.
@@timothymiddleton6651 I don't fine people hateful that rely on data for their opinions. I do find people hateful that hate based on the opinions they have been handed by others.
I noticed that he has moved to nature not nurture completely now.
@@annsheridan12 Yeah. He explains that elsewhere fairly thoroughly, as he says no efforts anywhere have been able to change IQ results. That, to me, still leaves open the effects of very early parenting, from birth to age 4. I believe those years are the critical years for almost every aspect of personality.
@@christianlibertarian5488 you are wrong according to the scientific literature.. in the Colorado Adoption project 250 couples who gave up the baby at month one. 250 couples who adopted the babies. 250 control couples. IQ tests yearly for 30 years.
Results: control couples highly correlated with the offspring in IQ
Couples who gave up the baby highly correlated with offspring they gave up.
The couples who adopted the baby from the first month of life had Zero IQ correlation with the adopted child.
I think he’s partly right (regarding increasing the IQ score).
My score increased significantly after I started healing from my childhood trauma and it felt like the fog inside my head disappeared and I was able to think clearly.
So if I assume that most people have some unhealed trauma, it means that if our society will focus on healing then the average IQ could indeed increase.
Of course it doesn’t mean that everyone can be anything, but it does mean that maybe there’s something that can increase the IQ score by unlocking the full potential of each person.
(I did some research and it seems that there’s a lot of people out there who are unaware of the fact that they even have trauma, and much of this is because of the specific capitalistic society that we live in).
But other than that, it’s an amazing interview and I wish we could’ve have more compassionate people like him in our society ❤️
*English isn’t my first language so I hope it makes sense and i’m sorry if I have any grammar mistakes
so how did you heal from childhood trauma?
I do so definitely agree with Murray that our educational system is declining. I saw it over the years that I was a high school teacher. The system definitely should emphasize in high school the wide range of occupations available to fit one’s talents and skills. And then provide those options.
There is a desperate need for skilled craftspeople and the remuneration can be good to incredible. The remuneration for teachers of primary through high school is frequently low and the environment is stressful. So how can we attract excellent people to this profession?!
The admission policies used by so many higher education schools replacing academic excellence with quotas is decreasing the quality of education for students.
Hopefully, the pendulum will begin to swing back to a realistic and rational balance.
The data shows it in fact is. I think there was some data that showed the iq of college graduates was actually lower today than 20 or 30 years ago
Southern New Hampshire University runs commercials in which their president intones, "In this world, although talent is equally distributed, opportunity is not. " You have to ask, would you attend a school who's leader says something so stupid ? Talent is equally distributed ?
It does sound dumb.
It boils down to we all have specific weaknesses and talents and not everyone can do whatever they want. That's really it. We all know this on some level. To have Murray spell this out in a clear direct way upsets people. He is completely right though and it's not a big deal.
Isn't his whole Theory based on race. that's a whole lot different than saying everyone can't do whatever they want.
@@paysour3 What he says is that evolution has occurred between human regional groupings in such a way that it impacts IQ. H O W E V E R the difference in IQ between individuals is much greater than that between ethnic groups so again its not a big deal. In other terms If you. judge a person's worth purely by IQ then you are the asshole.
@@Napalm6b that's not how it's being applied. Tucker Carlson is using it as a way to distinguish between the races and since he did not stop in I can assume it is his intent.
@@paysour3 Do you happen to have a link to when Tucker has done that? I've only seen some of his shows and I don't remember him saying anything like that but I could have missed it.
@@paysour3 Absolutely not! Murray says IQ is strongly correlated with monetary achievement in the US. That is what the Bell Curve is about, and he pours mountains of data at the poor reader to prove it. That is not a racial issue.
So jealous that you got to interview someone I so admire! Just got his latest book, and can't wait to read it.
Do your kids know that you think black and brown people are genetically inferior to whites?
@@youpeopleareinsane1285 no because I don't, and that's not what this says.
As a retired elementary teacher, I can state that most of my colleagues voiced having high expectations for students, but in reality their action proved to me that they have very low expectations for students, especially for children of color.
Yes...and that puts the most woke of them in an ideological bind.
Interviewer: What is IQ?
Murray: What the fuck is with that haircut?
It's statistically impossible to be anything you want to be especially when others control it.
You can't do anything you want but you can improve your life. I may not be able to run a marathon but if I train for one I will be fitter than if I never tried.
If you train for it you can do unless you have a physical disability. It’s motivating yourself to train that’s the hurtle to overcome.
The worst thing about it is so much effort and discussion is to teach children more of the stuff we use to asses intelligence rather than, if we can only teach them to learn so much, what are the most valuable things to teach them to improve lives of the students.
13:11 The CEOs of Twitter and Facebook as classic examples of that: very competent in their technical areas but never properly exposed to ethics, history, and all that. Because the monumental mistakes they are making (they are basically incapable of leading their companies through today's cultural and political mood) are mostly due to that kind of ignorance.
More likely examples of people with connections to government and banking (not exactly institutional bastions of ethics).
@@HomoVastans I don't think Mark Zuckerberg had any connections of that kind, he was just a passionate technical nerd. He would be good heading a sophisticated instrument company of some kind. As a leader of Facebook he is useless.
Everyone is ignorant, just about different things.
Murray is right and honest.
...and racist
@@Da1PrettyT fake and gay.
@@Da1PrettyT, let me guess, you’ve read none of his books. I’ve read two, _Losing Ground_ and _Coming Apart_, and numerous articles he’s written. He’s not a racist. He goes where the facts lead him and isn’t afraid to state the truth, regardless of how unpopular it may be.
I can see why he's deemed dangerous. Why would you accept someone with logic and sensibility educate the children of the nation if you're running the show, and a show it is.
I persevere through the banal music and haircut for the great guests.
Hes also dressed like a middle age woman.
🤣🤣🤣 Rob is definitely a trip lol. It’s the hand gestures that do it for me. I like his content, though. Wish there was more
Ouch
I'll allow it. He's a great interviewer and has great guests.
@@harrisonfunke8466 yeah, he’s pretty solid.
Just got Dr. Murray's new book. Starting tonight!
So Murray says the future of our country depends on how we educate the gifted. He then says we better teach them history, ethics, and religion. Is he kidding. the history of christianity is devoid of ethics.
@@ecstanton5833 Christianity doesn't have ethics?!? Is this:
1.) Are you taking some bad examples and pretending that's a complete average?
2.) Or can you actually show kids who were raised Christian widely on average scored less ethically than kids who were not raised as Christians? (And there's no other major variables that could account for this)
I highly suspect it's #1.
@@ecstanton5833 you benefit from. christian ethics every day if you live in the west...
I read it in the original german
@@ecstanton5833 eat
Charles Murray does not deserve any of the animosity he gets. It's shameful.
In this new era where bigots do not wear white sheets we need to know how racist thinks.
@@paysour3 Racism is bad... ruclips.net/video/4JHcSOCeuAE/видео.html
@@paysour3 And Murray is your racist, right? He must be racist against Caucasians because he points out they score lower than Asians on the whole.
@@paysour3 More ad hominem copy and pasted all over. When you don't have any rational counterarguments, just resort to attacking the messenger instead of the message using epithets such as "bigot" and "racist." You've got nothing.
@@Grumpollion I can easily see that he did not follow acceptable empirical scientific methods to come to his conclusions. His statistical analysis is severely flawed and his conclusions are based on wishful thinking.
The scientific Community does not accept this kind of quackery and I call it what it is. He is a bigot trying to tell other bigots what they want to hear.
I very much wanted this interview to last much longer! I've not followed Mr. Murray to any great extent but I really enjoyed hearing his perspectives. Especially on religion and aging.
Always surprised that I never hear about the system in many European countries. Many European counties, if not most, are very clear about channeling kids into "professional" and "technical" tracks. In other words, get a university degree vs get a technical education. Both lead to good economic outcomes, coupled with self-respect. Of course, sometimes errors are made - especially pushing a potential university-calibre kid into a technical track. So, they offer what the Swiss call a "bridge", where someone who really wants to can switch tracks.
Maybe having a preconceived idea as to what makes a person valuable is a huge problem. making people feel that unless they have a university education, they are worth less than others. What is important is to find out what you enjoy, what you are good at and how you can make a career out of that. And that is what education should be about - particularly in the later years at school
Its the State political and economic system calling the shots. There's no economic or political advantage according to society's leaders...
to nurture future commune-builders or tree sitters or uber delivery boys
SHOULD but is not and never will be as long as....oh buck it!
Thank you.
Looooove how rational this dude has ALWAYS BEEN!!!
He is a covert child abuser. False rationality at work here, the prize of very small minds. Murry is a child abuser in drag. He has no right to even be heard. He celebrates his own existential failure in everything he writes. He endorses the American economic/political status quo and lies about it, and even his thoughts about children are obscene. And of course we are ALL too stupid, busy or apathetic to see it. Its our own children of course so why SHOULD we care? Only in America would he even get an income for the trash he spews...of course the "facts" in his books are on some level true. But who else talks and acts like this man? NO ONE NO ONE NO ONE. Most people have more HUMILITY lol
We want to believe in Lake Woebegone where all children are above average.
@@darbyheavey406 Ms Darby we will have that again but the parents and trusted family and friends will be the teacher going forward...
Beautifully said! IQ has nothing to do with human value. We are all different and it’s ok.
Great interview. The interviewer was excellent. Asked interesting questions and allowed Murray to answer. Just wish it were longer.
Education is no longer a system its an industry turning people out with a piece of paper costing years of salary.
Not everyone is going to be a superstar. I wasn’t . Never thought I would be. But I like myself and am happy with who I became. We should be teaching kids to follow their “bliss”, what they are good at and what they find satisfaction in doing. Some people like my little brother are “kissed by the faeries” and succeed even when they don’t try. The rest of us just get on with life.
My twin brother on the other hand was one of those gifted high iq people, whose life was destroyed in a car accident at 19 when he incurred fractured skull and never gained back full function. He was destroyed when he realized he would never be what everyone originally thought he would be. It was sad to watch. He turned to drugs.
Define "superstar." Unless you're going to be a top 5 most powerful politician in the country or a media/sports celebrity, 99% of Americans aren't going to know who you are. You can be a superstar plumber whose business becomes highly sought after all across your county. How is that any less of a superstar than some plug lawyer who "made it" by being a no-name underling at a white shoe firm?
@@Matthew-cw3gn excellent point.
@@Matthew-cw3gn Most of those "Superstars" are stupid and couldn't engineer the stadiums they play in if their money and lives depended on it and a good plumber is worth more to me then one of those idiots!!!! I like having running water that stays in the pipes and don't like fixing those problems because I hate getting wet; on the other hand I can wire stuff all day long!!!!
I'm sorry this happened to your brother. I'm a twin myself, so I can imagine the effect of this tragedy on both of you. But since you are and were twins, I'm wondering if identical, and thus why you weren't felt to have the same gifts that endowed your brother.
thank you
The fact is that it's obvious that various people have varying levels of intelligence and ability. One size doesn't fit all in any area of life.
Charles Murray is a great man
The simple answer is Reading , Writing and Arithmetic ! Certainly reading books has fallen out of favor as of late .
Very insightful interview. Thank you.
This is the first time I've watched this channel and I enjoyed the interview. Would have happily watched a 2 hour version.
Watch Thomas Sowell, Jordan B. Peterson, Victor Davis Hanson, Ben Shapiro. You won’t watch much tv after that.
I like how the interviewer goes off on a tangent but Murray takes the opportunity to explore the idea of the “good life”.
What a humble and genuine person. So rare for people of the scholarly proffession. He can talk about data, fact and logical reasoning in the same sentence that he talks about local, communal values based on common wisdom. A truly brilliant mind, across means of thinking
He has beat out the moron-competitors in his silly life...what's not to be smug and satisfied about? His work celebrates his smallness. He has never contributed ONE THING to humane child development. He has actually impaired it. Who has to care about the ******? HUH HUH HUH??
THANK YOU FOR THIS
Truth doesn’t vanish regardless of what we think about it.
Quid est Veritas?
20:15 I have to say in this regard, what is harder to imagine: the idea that "nothing" follows after you die or the idea that "something" follows after you die? The average human has no idea what "nothing" means. Some would describe it as complete darkness or something that is invisible. But no one can really describe it perfectly. So I think Murray is right, whatever follows after death is really interesting.
I love watching surgeries. My wife had a C-section some years ago and it was amazing to watch. I stepped outside the Curtin I was suppose to stay behind and just watched in a awe and amazement. I DO NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY to be a doctor. I love it, I find it interesting but I cannot accomplish academically the things I must in order to attain the status of doctor needless to say surgeon. However, I do really well within the therapeutic stratosphere. I just seem to get the human condition and understand it almost innately. I did well in my studies and in my advanced degree. The very surgeon who conducted the C-section on my wife had the bedside manner of a rock. He was a brilliant surgeon and did very well with a very complicated situation but put him in my world and he would fail. Some of us are not intellectually capable of attaining certain fields and others fail to have the capacity to function in others. That's life how is this controversial?
Funny, I've thought that sure, I can be a surgeon. Just give me twenty years instead of twelve. I do know some bright assholes who went for their medical degrees in a mid-career shift. For me, I have neither the mental bandwidth nor ambition for that kind of lateral move.
Such a well-done interview! Got a great glimpse into his mind without covering all the well-worn clickbait portions of his career. Enjoyed very much
the college admissions scandal was just celebrities being cheap. if they donated more their kids would have gotten in. simple as that.
“Anyone can be anything that they want to be if they get the right education and the right opportunities.” Maybe some people in the educational system say that, but not everyone says that. It is a lie to say that they do.
Premature births and other perinatal factors play a huge part in IQ. The majority of special education students were born before 38 weeks. Groups with high IQ's have much lower rates of perinatal complications, while low I Q groups are the opposite. Dealing with this problem could really help with some of the gap.
Getting a handle on prematurity is more difficult than I thought. There are a wide variety of causes for prematurity, some of which you can influence, others not. Worse, it is not always clear which is which.
@@christianlibertarian5488 but few things are more costly to society than an intellectually impaired person. Research may uncover new treatments. Nurse and social worker visits to high risk mothers have decreased premature births and preeclampsia in some studies. It makes sense because women without TLC and good support have more perinatal problems.
I believe that same circulatory issues that allow black people to survive in harsh conditions with many parasites are also the same problems that cause preeclampsia, stroke and other related issues in the black community. I'm sure medical interventions can be found to offset these circulatory issues. It would help if the schools would teach young people that one of their biggest responsibilities in life is to have healthy, productive children and teach them home economics, shop classes, consumer math, child development etc. Encouraging young girls to work as live-in nannies while learning a career would help them, and placing young guys to stay with married couples with children while learning a trade could help them learn the social skills needed so that their children aren't born with exceptional stress and substance abuse. It would be good if Christian colleges that are struggling started vocational schools for men on their campuses and had them go to the Bible classes and chapel with the regular college students. Most Christian colleges are 2/3 female, and bringing lots of young men preparing for good paying trades would make the colleges more attractive. The rules that do not allow traditional gender roles in education need to be modified so that people who want to follow that track can, and poor students can learn what they didn't learn at home.
Most premies don't end up in special education, but most special ed students were born before 38 weeks.
@bobcat baldfat drunkbeater Two examples does not a valid argument make.
I think that he overrates the value of the IQ test as a measurement of intelligence because people can learn techniques so that they can substantially improve their scores on IQ tests. That poses the question of what it actually measures. Does it measure, to some extent, familiarity with general useful techniques for scoring well on tests? I don't dispute the idea that some people are more intelligent than others, but I don't know of any reliable way to connect intelligence with race, if you don't exclude other possible influences on scores such as poor nutrition, the stresses of poverty and fears of abuse from family members, etc. Of course Murray is useful to those who claim that there is no purpose in improving the lives of poor minorities since they have less "potential" than their white superiors.
As a foreign born and raised, I’ve always been fascinated with the USA obsession with “quality education “ as THE ONLY tool to succeed in life. This belief that if you provide the SAME quality education to all children, they will ALL be to able solve a trigonometry problem. Now, don’t get me wrong, quality education IS great; IS important. But SMARTS is what will make the difference between making education a successful tool or not, because education is exactly that, a tool to provide more information to the brain that is already hardwired to be intelligent or not.
Equity, even equality achievement, is PLAIN AND SIMPLE, IMPOSSIBLE. Occam’s razor : if all brains were hardwire the same way, we would all be Mozart’s, or we would all be mules.
This is not racism. It’s common sense. Why is it so hard for so many to understand this simple concept?
Well said! I concur with you and it's unfathomable how one can not grasp this, it's self evident.
Well, the foundational principle of the country is "All men are created equal." Now, that meant all are to be considered as having equal rights under law, but it often doesn't get taken that way.
There are people who earn their daily bread by not understanding it.
I work in the education industry at the high school level what Charles is saying is so true.
Superb interview, what a treat. Thank you, both
No, we have to give a proper education. Thats the problem.
All kids should be ok to good in math, for example.
Thats something we should do.
The rest is their own desire, luck or anything similar.
I have read his work and agree with most of his work. His research is on target, his analysis of the public school is correct.
He doesn’t understand what it take to improve a student’s academic skills to excel on SAT, ACT or AP in preparation for college.
Thomas Sowell is a much better read and knows what needs to be done to improve public education.
ruclips.net/video/rHDhj7Bua1Q/видео.htmlsi=fJgRzpI52evUq0Pz
If i had been able to skip most of my High-school education and immediately jump into an apprenticeship position id be far more wealthy and autonomous than i am right now. Spending 4 years prepping for an institution that you end up not going into is as much of a waste of time as it is a penalty to those kids who will go in a different direction. I see little point at all in forcing people to partake in things that they have zero interest or compatibility with. If you don’t have some semblance of consent from both parties you just aren’t going to ever get anywhere. All you’ll get is someone following the orders of another simply because “its the law” or “it is what it is”. In either case there is no higher reason and those types of students recognize this and it can easily cause many problems and real enmity between people and authority that otherwise would not exist. Its like having to spend five days a week in the BMV.
The environment can enable opportunity. IQ will limit capacity. Healthy environments will bring forth stable personality and with some persistence and an average IQ, will probably lead to happy employment in life. Nothing is guaranteed and nothing is 'as of right'.
It's amazing how different and thoughtful this man is as compared to the racist caricature that the media has used in an attempt to marginalize and "cancel" him with.
In any event, thankfully, they have not been successful, as he just seems to brush it off and keep chugging along in that inimitable, low key style of his.
His interview with Sam Harris about three years ago was what actually directed me down the rabbit hole of truth. I'm still in there digging, and I don't suspect I'll ever be able to
get out now. It's been a somewhat shocking journey, but enlightening and rewarding, as it confirmed for me many long held ideas on the nature of things that are dismissed
by the politically correct media, education and business "complex".
I loved him on Mary Tyler Moore.
Lol. Nailed it
Haaaaaaa!
I laughed
Ed Asner?
@@nuxvomica5045 Ya, I think there's a resemblance
The rich and powerful run things historically, not the brilliant and gifted.
Important:
When authors such as Murray, or anyone, write or speak about "genetics" and how genetics determine things, understand that environment and stress levels CAN and DO affect which part of a gene is expressed.
Neuroendocrinologist Robert Sapolsky discusses this in his work.
A key question here is, in which phase of human development (i.e. gene expression and critical neural development) is environment most important? The answer seems to be from gestation through perhaps the first 18-24 months I think it is fair to say that we are only beginning to understand just how critical this period is and its impact on all of the underlying complexities in childhood cognitive development. What we do know is, the so-called underprivileged children fare much worse in this period of life and politically, dealing with it is a "third rail" issue, and for good reasons.
By the way, Charles Murray has written extensively about the likely impact of advances in our understanding of genetics and human development. In short, the WOKEsters are not going to be comfortable with what is learned since it likely will force them to face the 800 pound gorilla in the room, which is very early stage childhood development (i.e. gestation through 24 months), and the probability that if we fail here, subsequent interventions will be of much less benefit. In other words, who actually has the child and how they handle the first 24 months plus gestation must be "fixed", whatever that means in practice.
Only prenatal and early infant nutrition can impact that in addition to say lead paint for example
I don't believe we all have the capacity to be anything we want, but I do prefer a system that presumes that is true. Of course if you take an IQ test and it reveals certain strengths and weaknesses, you should use that information in moving forward as an individual. But I don't want the government to come in and say because of the results, one person will be a civil servant and another an astrophysicist. I think most people would agree on that. We have to have the independence to fail and learn as we go. I don't think any of this has to do with bigotry. It's a philosophical difference as to the nature of human independence in an organized society.
Exactly. You've now figured out why no one in psychology or academia cares for this topic. You will find the most highest IQ _'races'_ don't care for this metric simply for that reason. Why create a system of determinism if it risks the possibility of getting an absurdly talented _low IQ_ mathematician or an incredibly _high IQ_ jazz musician? People think those that don't care for this topic do so cause it's some kind of forbidden knowledge but the truth is it doesn't matter. MENSA members don't collectively contribute to a more rewarding society.
Like the hippocratic oath, its not the teacher's job to decide that some students can't do anything they want to do. Kids knows this by the time they are 10. This is not the problem of education. No chid left behind is making sure kids can do very basic stuff - unless they are learning disabled (or in Murray's words low IQ). Murray is a very smart guy - but his arguments - like anyone's has holes. Losing ground was his best book - the rest is too enamored of IQ.
The ad copy of No CHild Left Behind was that it would make sure all kids could do basic stuff. The actual implementation of NCLB was a set of bureaucratic sticks and carrots that corrupted education in favor of meeting artificial metrics. I was a math teacher at a public high school ~10 years ago, I remember about half way through one school year I was asked to put away the Algebra II books and to use a test prep book for the annual exams. This was in the school leadership's interest and did not serve the students well.
@@NA-oo4lsI see. Well, getting back to Murray's argument. You should set high expectations for children until they prove otherwise. That is not the issue.
That should be the teacher's job, as much as it is the physician's to use the principles of triage to save whom he can when many are in need of saving but not all can be saved. We cannot continue to waste resources pursuing unlikely outcomes.
James Watson: What would you rather have a good teacher or be very smart. It’s the nature -nurture question. I’d like to be very smart.
The ONLY way "no child left behind" works, in if no one goes anywhere.
Have my +1, Sir.
I wish my high school would have told me what my IQ was. She just said "I cant tell you, but you can be whatever you want." That didnt help me.
Great interview. Would love to hear much more from Mr Murray.
In this new era where races do not wear white sheets we need to know how racist thinks.
@@paysour3 on what way is he racist in your opinion?
@@tallchick1966 his statements are full of dog whistles. ruclips.net/video/zVlQDRJ8KnI/видео.html
02:35 bro are you telling me Charles Murray hasn't replaced the battery in his fire alarm.
AOC is a good example of someone who went to a prestigious school and should not have. She got elected cause shes young and pretty. Some because of their skin color. The difference between some Congress people is un believable
Lets just forget that AOC saved her constituents hundreds of millions during her 1st term in congress 😂
@@Da1PrettyT hundreds of millions in tax savings, which would be paid down the road. lost billions in construction costs, good jobs, and ancillary jobs. Let's not forget there was a competition for that project. Only a dem could see that way.
@@zodglubby That amazon deal would have cost New Yorkers $3.5 billion while using up the local infrastructure, gentrifying a whole neighborhood, driving out local families and causing the worst traffic nightmares in NYC history. We elect politicians just so they can turn down -ish like this. God bless AOC
You must be on meth.
I cant help but point out that Trump got elected in part because he was famous and rich. If there was ever anyone unqualified for that job, it was him.
And yet he did a pretty good job.
Thank you
No socks but great interview.
Haha...its distracting.
The soundtrack to this is really nice.
Could listen to this guy all day
In this new era where bigots do not wear white sheets we need to know how racist thinks.
I remember I got into a big argument with an old girlfriend who was a teacher, simply because I made the outrageous claim that some kids are smarter than others.
The hi/lo tracking approach is used throughout Europe. One gets sent to university, or to vocational college. It's not controversial. Americans need to stop arguing in terms of American Exceptionalism and other "isms'. Take a colorblind approach to people, tax the rich, have good social services which take care of all. That's it. That's what you need.
Exactly, in Europe it's more about being a useful member of the society, be it inventing new things or shoveling snow off the sidewalk. Everybody contributes what they can. Ironically, I think this is something America sorely lacks.
I message from The UK. Europe is unfortuntaley now following American ideas on pretty much most things, education included.
What we don’t need is Europeans telling us how to be. We booted you folks out 200+ years ago so we could build the greatest country in history.
"For every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, clear, and wrong." - H.L. Mencken
@@darbyohara seriously? are you a stereotype?
It would seem to me very logical that the education system would espouse a philosophy that every child can be anything they want with proper education and environment. With such a philosophy, new methods of education can always be experimented with making any Education Department seemingly indispensable.
But the scientific literature says that it’s not true
You wonder how many people will be reading Charles Murray in future compared to reading the 7 (so far) people who dislike this post.
I don’t know. Most professional success doesn’t seem to come down to IQ. You don’t have to be a genius for most, even high earning, jobs. Discipline is more important.
Success in our cognitively complex culture is mainly dependent on 2 things, IQ and conscientiousness.
Iq is the single best predictor of economic success. Consciousness (more or less: self discipline) is second. So I'd say no, iq is more important.
How about the irony of Professor Murray’s rise to academic prominence through the publication of The Bell Curve having occurred for a reason other than The Bell Curve’s conclusion that intelligence is the stuff of success; the death of his mentor.
What?
You spelled ignoramus incorrectly.
IQ and conscientiousness determine success in our cognitively complex culture.
@@annsheridan12 Well, there also is luck, stability of and if two-parent household, etc.
@@puremercury the 2 main indicators of success in our cognitively complex culture are IQ and conscientiousness.
I am glad to see Mr. Murray back in the fray. Lay it on ‘em, sir.
Don't the super smart students go into engineering, architecture, and fields like that? A doctor actually told me that.
engineering yes, but architecture?
Other than a lot of people willing to go and a few getting that chance (mostly bc they do not draw well enough) I do not associate architects with high intellectual standards... .
Not architecture. It’s too competitive and a very small field.
He's right. Kids are all different. I sure as hell couldn't play basketball but I was good at track and history and other stuff. My kids were all different in various aptitudes. The schools try to enforce lies that do far more harm than good. The internet and AI robots will soon replace the entire educational system -- and none too soon.
I never thought about it before, but is the increased economic emphasis on intelligence the reason why people stopped making fun of nerds and smart people? In old media, the smart kid at school was always bullied. That's completely different now. When you think of somebody being taunted for their brainpower, you only think what a jackass the instigator is.
You assume that nerds have moved up the social hierarchy, they haven't. They're still picked on in many schools.
Prairie Home Companion - Remember that show? "Where all of the children are above average!" I am a retired School Psychologist and am now teaching music and playing jazz guitar - a lot. I administered IQ tests almost everyday of my adult life and I got pretty darned good at interpreting results. Right now, I don't think I could remember all of the subtests of the WISC or KABC and I kind of don't want to. I am very familiar with Charles' work and am one of the few School Psychs who actually read The Bell Curve. I totally agree with about 85% of what he says, but I don't buy his views on religion.