Just gotta mention something I tried and succeeded with yesterday. If you already have an mft top and want to reproduce it on another bench, just use it as a template by laying it in top of new one and using a Fischer wave cutter forstner bit. Can't believe how well it turned out, all for the cost of a 20 quid bit!
Your presentation was time well spent for me and I suspect the majority of your viewers. Very well done and an important overview of what’s available to get that job done……..
The Parf guide is not only good looking, but IMHO is more versatile than the others as you can prepare a surface for the grid without completing the 20mm holes. My process with the Parf guide for a surface where you don’t need all the 20mm holes in every position immediately is to drill a 3mm grid then it is trivial to add 20mm holes if needed. There is no loss of accuracy and the surface can be more useful for other purposes
Thanks for the comparison! I used the parf guide system, on a full sheet of MDF, that took almost a full day and left my trigger finger sore :) People should be aware though about the UJK dogs; You need to chamfer the holes with the provided chamfer tool as the dogs have a lip on them that fits into it. If that lip sticks up it can dig into the side of your sheet and potentially misalign your cut by a millimeter over the distance between the dogs. So chamfer the holes and make sure the dogs are correctly seated before making your cut. Or use some other dogs ;)
After spend months investigating the MFT jigs I went with the Parf Mark 2. Yes very expensive in Australia but accurate, repeatable and very high quality.
A tip for the Parf Guide system - you should try and index from the 3mm pilot holes when boring as much as possible. They are quite a bit more accurate. Every time you index off the 20mm holes, the holes you bore have an extremely small error introduced. If you do the entire top like you have done here, those errors compound on each other to something more noticeable. It probably isn't an issue on a small MFT top like you are making here, but when doing a 4x8 sheet (or larger) this is a very serious issue. The better way is to plan ahead and figure out how to bore the maximum number of holes while indexing only from the 3mm pilots, and only once you're completely finished with that step you go on to bore the rest. This way it's entirely possible that every bored hole is indexed either from good 3mm pilots, or a 20mm hole which was itself indexed off a 3mm pilot. It's also much better to ensure you have a pin (or indexing dog) on either side of the hole you're boring - the way your'e doing it here (with the indexing dogs both on one side of the hole you're boring) enables quite a lot more deflection and introduces a lot of potential for error. I also find it essential to clamp down the boring jig for the four corners. I am amazed how frequently I pull out the Parf Guide system - it really opens up a lot of possibilities for somebody without a CNC!
Yes! I did not do this on my 1st Parf mft 4'x8' clone and ended up about 3/32 -5/32 out of square over the 8' run. Like Peter I checked my squareness with a big precision square (TSO), and within the range of the square cumulative drift is effectively zero, however cut a big 3x7 sheet using 4 cut method and it won't be square. Over the size of average casework, like kitchen cabinets boxes and doors, the drift is not perceptible. But if you need something really precise for large pieces you need to use your method.
Haven't got a Parf guide yet, but plan to in a few months. Seems to me another accuracy factor is to minimize how many generations of holes you have. Not sure if there's a better word for this but I'm thinking (using Peter's drilling sequence here) the (8?) holes drilled from the original Parf stick placement are 1st gen holes, the perpendicular lines of holes at the ends drilled from the 6-8-10 assembly are 2nd gen holes because they're based off of 1st gen holes, the holes drilled at the rearward long edge are 3rd gen holes because they're based on 2nd gen holes, and the central field holes are 4th gen holes because they're based on 3rd (and 1st) gen holes. Point is you can do your drilling so there are no 4th gen holes which can reduce the cumulative error from having more generations than you need. You can also make many of the 3rd gen holes be 2nd gen, further reducing potential error.
Jim, excellent advice. My parf guide arrives in a couple of days and I did not know the nuances you mentioned. The info and advice is much appreciated.
@@NWGR no problem. I would strongly suggest going back to the catalog of The New Brit Workshop and seeing all Peter has to say about using the system. I picked up most of those tips from him, although some of them I discovered through my own experience with the system.
Thanks for your work on this Peter. One way to improve the extraction on the Parf dust extractor is to press a piece of very dense closed cell foam, like the packaging foam that comes around many tools etc when shipped, into the slot of the jig that is not being used - it increases the suction on the remaining active one. I think this a Peter Parfit tip from his demo video & it really works.
Awesome content as we have come to expect? I purchased the Parf guide kit and have investigated various alternative hole patterns, mostly through the Britt workshop channel (another awesome channel). I have since put additional holes in my MFT and configured a Paulk work bench with custom holes. These all have additional holes to the main standard pattern. I love the extra functionality and precision of the Parf guide. I will also use this to make jigs that will sit above and below the take surface such as bench vice, etc. One thing I think you did not mention is that the Parf kit comes with a chamfer tool, at least I think it does. I have both the chamfer bit and combo chamfer reamer bit. These are necessary to get the chamfer range of dogs to work, plus after you shellac the MDF you do not need to worry about any build up in the holes or at the chamfer. Very much appreciate your sharing your knowledge. Cheers from Newfoundland Canada.
Great comparison! I purchased the Parf Guide 2 system this year and used it on a 4x8 sheet of MDF. I like how accurate it was and following the recommendations of the instructions really minimizes and drift. My biggest issue was making sure you get the pins seated correctly in the ruler. Take you time when doing that and things will go great.
@6:35 What I found was that using the provided dust shroud impeded dust collection. Probably because of those discs that happen often. What I did was to just leave the hose at the two holes seen @5:31. It seemed to work much better. But the UJK Parf Guide is a BEAST. And it's a lifetime investment as there is nothing that will wear out. And it's so simple to use as well. As for squareness? It's dead nuts accurate.
Ive been wondering which jig is the best but no one has tested the three versions I’ve been looking at until now. Thank you Peter, you have saved me at least £100!
I pondered on different systems for many months. Finally bit the billet and got a Parf guide system. So glad I did. It has tremendous flexibility. When using a Festool track it is ideal to have alternative hole locations so it can do this with ease Whilst I would like a router option I know there would be a time when I would take a knock out the jig and ruin it. So Parf system is my vote.
Great vid Peter! I invested in the Parf Guide 2 system a couple of years ago - I felt the small storage size and long-term dimensional stability of the metal components compared to the MDF alternatives over, say, 25+ years (I’m in my mid 30’s!) was worth the extra initial cost. What blew me away with the UJK kit was the quality of the components- especially the 3mm drill bit and 20mm cutter! Being able to have half-spaced holes meant setting up for my new Bench Dogs Rail Hinge was a breeze too. Another factor was that I felt the UJK system would hold up to wear better than the MDF templates- granted you can adjust with the tape but if the wear isn’t concentric you will end up potentially out of square.
Thanks Colin. Yes, the Parf Guide 2 is a very well put together piece of kit, and having some modest experience with small-volume production and manufacturing, I'm impressed that they can do it for the price they do. As you say, it's a long-term investment that will continue to produce great results for years to come, and with an almost guaranteed resale value if you ever do decide to move it on. No getting around that fact that you're drilling one hole at a time though... 👍 👍
I was looking at all three of these systems and went with the Parf guide as I didn't have a router that would produce consecutive accurate results after some experimenting with router jigs. The Parf system is also easier to store in my small work space it is a bit costly but I figured i'd have it and use it for many years to come and you get two long steel rules that are always handy.
I was lucky enough to invest in a UJK jig before it became double the price and what it retails for now. Been putting MFT holes in every worktop I have ever since.
Thanks for the comparison Peter. I used the Axminster set when I built my version of your portable bench. Definitely a bit spendy but well worth it. I don’t believe I could have done as well with a movable jig. Regarding the “boring” part (I see what you did there), I did not drill the entire top. I add them as needed for the particular task. Saves time initially, and I can stomach (ok rationalize) the cost a bit better using it a few times a year rather than once a year or two. Nice video as usual.
Same here. I went with three worktops with specific set of holes. First one I made a full grid of 3mm holes, as there are easy and 'fast' drilled. Than I checked were I need dogholes and added them later. Here comes the parfjig to shine. It is easy an accurate to only, make on row of holes rectangular to a nother row, evan on a full sheet. I justified the high cost with sharing the jig with woodworking friends and preparing worktops for others. BTW if you don't raise your worktop but put it at a spoilboard, you prevent the spinning disks of MDF
With parf guide you can also make holes in 30 degree pattern to each other when others are 90 or 45 degree. Parf guide is the most versatile if you need that option.
Great video, as always. I probably need to go watch it again. I do wish decent CNC service for wood was available more widely in the States, or even just the Cnc’d tops. I have an idea for a rather nonstandard top I’d like to make… but I’m not sure I’m competent to manage it without a CNC. Guess I’ll have to convince the wife to buy me a CNC…
Fantastic timing Peter, I am about to embark on my own MFT top for my newly acquired garage which I am converting to a workshop. I am however, attempting to create the MFT top with no purchased guides or jigs, but have opted to try and make my own jig, starting out with a piece of Meccano to provide regularly spaced accurate holes. Throughout my research, I've found no justified reason for the 96mm centres, so I think I will opt for 100mm for easier math. Thanks again for all of your content, you are one of the main inspirations for me to try and cross over into the woodworking industry whilst in my mid 30's and with a family, so the regular apprenticeship route is not feasible for me at this time.
Pleasure, glad it was helpful. No reason not to make your own, just be fastidious in your marking and your maths. No reason for 96mm centres, other than compatibility with existing hardware eg benchdogs quad hinge, or MFT dogs in a rail square. 👍
In expanding my skillset from professional green woodworking into a some more accurate shapes, learning what technique I will need to learn and and what kit suits my set up has been easy and fun through watching well over half of your video output. Having spent so much on tools I can't afford to pay to join the support group right now, but just to say a huge thank you for the articulate and well thought out videos.
I used the Trend jig recently and it worked great. I slowed down my router speed which stopped the burning marks inside the hole. Only issue I had was 2 days later I spotted I missed a hole right in the middle! I've left it like that as a reminder to pay better attention. Thanks for the great videos.
Great comparrison Peter, probably not much between all three in terms of accuracy but I'm probably a bit biased as I bought the UJK Parf Guide Mkll system over a year ago and loved it when boring out 191 dog holes in my new workbench which has a side apron as well full of dog holes. I also used the facility of boring some "offset" holes which allows for taller dogs to be placed in such a postion that your plunge saw track doesn't end up running straight across the middle of a column of holes when its up against the dogs to keep it square. UJK (Axminster Tools) also now sell "retrospective dogs" which are a 20mm dogs with a 3mm hole pre-drilled in the center so you can re-fit the rulers with the pins in the correct holes to allow you to accurate bore offset 20mm dog holes, quite useful if you decide you need them at a later date. Yes it's quite a bit more expensive and a bit slower, but if you are doing lots of bench tops I think it might last considerably longer than the other two, possibly 😁 The Systainer is a great idea, but you still need somewhere to keep the "Parf Sticks" where they won't get damaged, so working on an idea for that at the moment. Look forward to the next video, keep up the great work.
Thanks Colin! Yes, the steel rules are a blessing and a curse. Handy to have and useful outside of the parf guide - as are the benchdogs and forstner bit - but a pain to keep! 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I mulled over the parf stick storage problem for a while - defineitly something you want to protect. Eventually I came up with a solution I'm pretty proud of - they fit perfectly into a piece of electrical trunking/conduit (I think it was 40mmx16mm for B&Q). I cut it about 30mm longer than the sticks, added two end caps and a batton (~30x10mm) to keep it stiff.
Excellent, objective review of the 3 different systems to make an MFT. I’m certainly very curious to see what your DIY solution/system will be to make one!👍🤔
I have the Parf mk2 and the advantage you didn't mention in the video is you have the ability to make offset holes so your tracksaw doesn't cut through your holes. Great video, very informative
Before anyone jumps in to plunging 20mm holes I'd recommend doing a test first. I tried this and although the cutter diameter was 20mm the hole size I ended up with was more like 20.2 which is useless for an MFT. I never did get to the bottom of the issue, it could have been cutter runout or down to the router bearings. Woodworker beware.
Actuallym the Festool 'standard' for MFT holes is 20.2mm - that's a topic for another video entirely! But yes, I've been collecting 20mm bits for a while, and overwhelmingly the difference 'between them' is down to router run-out. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Hi Peter, so what bit is the most accurate for 20mm then? I'm planning on making my MFT with your method over the next few weeks so it would be great to be able to get the right bit first time.
@@1larfinboy This is not from Peter but I have a few 20mm router bits and I have found that the best for MDF holes is the Trend, which is the one that Peter used. My tests are not scientific, just make a hole and try it. The bench dogs I use are the Benchdogs UK Quad Dogs which have the expanding rubber rings. However, the bit with the Parf Guide system is a tighter fit. As Peter says, first try the bit on a scrap piece.
In the instructions trend recommend reducing the cutter RPM for this application, which in conjunction with peck drilling the holes, reduces vibration and therefore the production of oversized holes. I’m a huge fan of the trend jig as it’s so much faster then messing about with rulers, pins, pegs, drill bits and other numerous paraphernalia which is easily lost and more time-consuming to replace or maintain when compared with one router one router bit, with the included extraction that is also clearer whilst working.
I was slightly intimidated by the parf system for a year and a half. Maybe I just thought I’d screw it up or there’s no way it’ll work that good. I’m blown away by how easy it is to use and how accurate it is. Made two tops this past week and they are flawless. As square as it can be. I have extremely accurate measuring devices, more accurate than I ever need for woodworking, everything is a go. Can’t say enough about it
Heh Peter, 50 v 7 minuets no brainer if you have the £1K of Festool kit and you are in business knocking the MFT3 tops out of for cash but I suppose for most of us one two or maybe even three MFT3 tops are plenty so buying one already made from a CNC company for £40ish, it varies, may be the best way to go as they are readily available from a few sources. The comparison video here is just first class and excellent if you are in that zone of making your own with or without the flexibility you have alluded to here. Brilliant and super clear Peter thanks for sharing.
Hi Peter, I bought the Trend 20mm x 25 x ½” router bit to drill some dog holes in 18mm MDF using my Benchdogs hinge jig and I too had scorching. Initially I had the router speed too high and the heat generation melted the MDF glue and caused serious tear out inside the bore. I reduced the router speed to minimum and that stopped the tear out but I still had some scorching. So instead I purchased a Festool 20mm x 25 x 8mm spiral upcut cutter (I had to get a Leigh ½” x 8mm collet reducer too) and that gives much cleaner cuts, slight burning at top speed and completely burn free at minimum speed. The cutter is slightly more expensive than the Trend one and you have the additional cost of the collet reducer, but I think the much superior performance is well worth the total increase of £13. An additional benefit is improved dust extraction, which is a real bonus for me because I have a De Walt router which has, at best, awful dust control.
@@10MinuteWorkshop Hi Peter, I agree though the Trend 20mm router bit creates similarly oversized dog holes as the Festool bit. Only the Parf Guide cutter creates a tight fit. But since even tight fit dog holes get a bit sloppy over time I tend to use dogs that tighten into the dog hole, which also avoids the need to use star knobs to lock the dogs in place. Steve
your videos made me venture down the MFT route and they have been a gamechanger. i am still using my initial 50 quid with 4 alu dogs one although has been flipped over and oiled again now. for anyone wondering if its a route worth taking i'd say go for it. you can always buy one and use a template bit to make more which i did when i got mine. i made a couple of smaller tops that i use as extensions or i can sit my chop saw on a base with dogs easily as i rarely use it. makes it super stable and can place where i need it most. plus use dogs for clamping stop blocks etc
I love your videos. This is a very good one. I use the UJK system and find it very flexible. I use mainly the top and bottom row for a cutting station with a Festool guide rail as I have no space for a hinge like you use. In between the 3mm pilot holes I added grooves with the Microjig Matchfit router bit for use with clamps and sleds. Thanks a lot for your video series.
You can, but it’s fiddly to do. I bought one to do that way back - before MFT jigs or affordable CNCs were a thing - and it’s a tight radius to copy with a flush trim bit, and surprisingly time-consuming. 🤷♂️👍
It is the best option imo, and 100% accurate. With a template 30mm holes and a 20 mm bit & guidebush it must be 100% centered and is not easy to do and stay centered all the way.
I tried the old mark 1 parf guide system but quickly sold it as it was slow & a complete mess, as you said in the vid. Didn't lose too much money on it as they're popular & easy to sell on. Now use the RS pro CNC jig (I splashed out & got the ply one for longevity) & find it miles faster & easier to use & it's a bargain compared to anything else. Can't argue with the accuracy of either. At the end of the day the accuracy of whatever comes out of my workshop starts with my cutting table.
I bought the trend one in the end. The payment section of the CNC website for the other place didn't work although I am considering buying a CNC machine to make stuff and sell it online.
I've got the parf mark ii. I made an mft-style work top using a full sheet of plywood. One half was accurate and the other half was a bit off. User error? Probably. It took me quite a while to finish it. I've been thinking about having a cnc shop make for me a large template out of 3/8" polycarbonate, maybe 30" x 40" with 30mm holes, 96mm on center.
I think the parf system has an inherent flaw. You place the rulers on top of each other in the triangle corner which slightly changes the length and therefore the position of the holes. This will accumulate if you need to make a full sheet.
@@gilad_paz In my opinion what you're saying isn't an issue. Plus, to counter any possible effect the bending of the top ruler might have I shimmed it level, just to be sure. I used shims that were the same thickness of the bottom ruler and along the entire length. Again, I don't think that should be an issue. As I said, one side is perfect, the other side is off. My issue is it took a long time. I'm a finish carpenter and I have plenty of patience to do detailed work, and the parf mark ii is good, it takes too long in my opinion.
@@gilad_paz I'd bet that if I did it again I'd get it just about perfect, I'm not sure I have the patience. On the other hand how often do I need to make a new top? Every couple of years?
@@ThekiBoran thanks for your reply. I still think there may be a problem. No mater how you shim, seems to me there will always be at least on of the 3 rulers that will not be equally distanced from the sheet you are working on, on both of its ends. At least one end will be closer to the sheet then the other. Also, if you rais two ends of a ruler then maybe other issues will arise, and still another ruler will not be completly paralel to the sheet.
Thankd for the comparison on these Peter, much appreciated. The parf guide system will probably be the one I go for when I make some MFT tops for my shop. The trend and rspro jigs seem nice enough, but aren't as easy to source for use in the united states. Woodpecker makes one similar to the trend jig but uses a 1/2" bit like the rspro. That seems nice as well, but I'm still leaning towards the parfguide.
Thanks! Yes, I was surprised to learn recently that Trend doesn’t have as wide a distribution in the US as we tend to think here; got to buy what you can buy, right? 👍👍
Great video as always Peter, many thanks. I would be very interested to see another one on more jigs to do the odd alternative hole, if such a selection exists. For those times when you could just do with another hole right there. In particular, centre to two standard holes & centre to four standard holes. I would be hard pressed to justify the cost of the UJK Parf Guide 2 for a couple of holes. Your thoughts on the best way to go about it accurately with other standard kit would be interesting to.
Thanks Milo. You might want to watch this space - or join the member channel at 10minuteworkshop.plus - free signup at the moment, paid tiers won't start until August - as there might be a member video out in the next couple of weeks that will be of interest. 👍
Very good! If I may ask,” We’re you able to measure the accuracy , hole to hole”? Thank you for sharing not only your time, sharing your talent. Bob USA
Thanks! No - measuring to a fraction of a mm or degree is beyond my simple skills. I can take a triangle that’s been precision machined on a CNC that cost more than your car and mine together and check for square both on the edges and using the dog holes on 96mm centres, and I can make cuts over longer distances bearing against dogs in the holes and again, check for squareness. If it satisfies those simple tests, it’s ‘square enough’ for me, and as any engineer will tell you, there’s no such thing as square, just varying degrees of out of square! Thanks! Peter
I know it’s not cheap and beyond a lot of peoples budgets, but I have a Shaper Origin Handheld CNC. At £2500 it’s not cheap but you can do so much with it. Once you supply it with the SVG codes, you can MFT any board accurately to any hole design in one go. It part pays for its self in making all those expensive jigs, dogs bench squares, excessive router bits etc…etc. worth a review if you can get your hands on one.
I have the RS CNC jig and have now made 4 'standard' MFT tops with it 2 for myself and 2 for mates, can't really fault it especially at the price, made me wonder though if it would be possible to use a sized to fit bush and a 20mm router bit with it (as per the Trend) instead of the recommended 1/2" bit, would it retain the accuracy (with the 1/2" bit it's perfect, btw), feel an experiment coming on, great review Peter
Another very interesting video. I bought my MFT top from Rick at CNC Design in Wrexham three years ago and it has lasted me well. All their products are incredible value for money and the RS Pro jig is no exception and I think if I was in the market for a jig, to make a new top, them it would be the one that I would go for. Why pay oodles of dosh more for a smart shiny set, when all you want to do is drill a set of accurate holes in a sheet of MDF and from your test it seems the best value for money and very easy to use!
Not really in the spirit of this video, but worth pointing out that if you live on mainland UK, you can have an MFT replacement top for £75, delivered, including 6 bench dogs, from RS Pro CNC. There are other cheaper offerings on Ebay, including birch ply and the ubiquitous (on 10MW!) MR MDF, but I haven’t tried them. Can recommend the RS Pro CNC top however, came fast and well-packaged, and is on a factory-second Axminster MFT table, so I have an MFT setup for less than £150, although I do need to build a base for it
A point that I've laboured over in every video that I've done about MFTs - and that's a fair few - is that it's cheaper to buy an MFT top from CNC Designs - nee RS - than it is to make your own **provided all you want is a single, standard-size MFT top from MRMDF or Birch ply** Want something in a different material, or in a different size, or more than one, then these jigs can start to make sense. I bought my MFT top from Rick in Wrexham when I did my backyard budget MFT build, cost ~£75 including the top. 👍
A question on both of the router-based methods - how can you possibly get the guide bushing *perfectly* centered so rotation of the router doesn't introduce any error? I suppose if you try to keep the router in the same orientation for each hole, the error will be quite small indeed. It does look like you got a great result with all three methods!
I was wondering how the routing was working too. You just ‘plunged’ into the routing without showing how it was working. Why wasn’t the router bit routing into the jig and making it slightly larger with each plunge?
If you have a router buy the latter two. if you don't, buy the parfitt. The CNC jig being made of MDF will mean it could be affected by moisture or compression. The CNC is £45 but there's £15 postage on that. glad you have done this as was just about to purchase one. Think I will get CNC and varnish it!
Thanks for the breakdown, Peter! I ended up getting the Trend jig, and wanted to make people aware of a potential “gotcha” with regards to the bit. Trend seems to make at least two 20mm router bits - the C030CX1/2TC, which is the one you’ve got linked, produced 20.2mm holes for me and some other people in the Amazon reviews. It also has only a 25mm cutting depth, which was just barely long enough for my router/guide bush combo to plunge through 18mm stock. The C030DX1/2TC bit is specifically called out by trend as being suitable for mft top production, and presumably not oversized (I’m still waiting on mine to arrive from across the pond to confirm). It also has a 40mm depth of cut, offering more flexibility for material thicknesses. All that to say - you may want to change your Amazon link to point to the C030DX1/2TC bit.
If I did that I’d get someone whining that I hadn’t used enough benchdogs, or I should do it with different ones at the top, or that I hadn’t used the correct benchdogs etc.. etc.. 🤷♂️
Hi Peter, you might want to check the accuracy over the distance of the top. Like a fence. My money would be on the part system!! Great videos as always. Thanks.
I have 40cm of work surfaces all round. , Parf UKJ Park 2 you can use the rulers to make some mad setups, I've got my shed from side to side and end to end MFT's and all square.
Very helpful and interesting. Novice questions: if going for the router method what's the cheapest brand and lowest power you'd all trust for the job? Equally I've been surprised how affordable CNC tops can be found currently. Anyone know how the accuracy compares?
I have my own MFT jig coming along shortly, but I wouldn’t trust any 1/4”’router to this job except the Festool OF1010, and even then you can do better for a lot less money in the 1/2” sector. As I think I say in the video, MFT tops are a commodity item here in the UK at Kew than the cost of any one of these jigs, so you pays your money and makes your choice. 🤷♂️👍
12:32 if those small holes around the perimeter were 20mm and properly placed, you could use all ten of the holes for drilling all the time. And, the jig would be lighter
These look like very nice jigs - I'm a little surprised at how expensive they are though, at least over in the States. TSO wants $234 for the Parf Guide mk2 and the Trend one is $100. I've had excellent luck just removing the MFT segment from an MFT Systainer ($60) and using that as a guide - and then I've got a systainer afterwards. Never have enough boxes. The GBP50 PRO Jig seems like a keeper though.
I have the both the RS pro jig and the Parf mk2 system, I wasn't impressed with the RS pro jig. I ended up making 4 mft tops with it and each one the holes got progressively worse with slop, despite making sure the guide bush was a good fit. So i ended up biting the bullet and buying the Parf system which was better, but as you said a lot slower.
Interesting, thanks! Yes, I was surprised how much effort the RS jig too - those little circular motions were quite wearing, and whilst I had no issues, I did wonder if they'd cause problems with the jig moving, or the holes in the jig wearing. Good to hear the Parf guide is doing the business for you. 👍
When using the template and router did you make sure the bit was centered in the guide bushing? I have an OF1400 and to my surprise it was nowhere near centered.
I haven't been able to contact Peter about this, but the machinists soul in me really wants him to include a couple small shims (the same thickness as the rulers) in the parf guide system, for that step where one ruler overlaps the other at one point, but touches the table at the other extreme. The slight triangle created by the change in height throws off the accuracy just enough that some people have had trouble lining up the holes. None of them seem to know why. Do you perchance have a direct line to this guy??
I'm completely with you there! If you search for any of Peter Parfitt's videos you should be able to send him a message. I've contacted him a few times now
No. We've spoken a couple of times, but I wouldn't say I knew him. Most youtubers are pretty approachable, I'm sure he'll have some method of contact in his 'about' tab on his channel. 👍
Good product and great value. I found it quite tiring to use - all those little circular motions of the router - and surprisingly, slower than the trend to do a full top. 👍
At first I was just going to buy a replacement MFT top, and use it as a template... with a flush cut router bit. And just use dogs to register it as I extend the grid. Then use the Parf reemer to _exact-ify_ the holes. Do you see any issue with this? Maybe just wear on the original holes from the bearing? Thankyou.
No, no issues with this; best to screw the tops together, rather than clamp them or use dogs to register, and you really need to concentrate so’s not to mess up - that small circular motion is really awkward and doesn’t get any easier on repeat. My only question would be why bother, unless you need several or odd sizes or hole patterns, especially with MFT tops being a commodity?
Great video! I guess the cnc design jig is the best for me. It is more easier to find a 1/2 inch bit with 2-3 inch length. Although it is slow, I don’t need to make dog holes frequently.
Interesting I made mine without any of these products and the current state of the AUD makes purchases from the UK very exxy. I did mine in 4 goes because as you said it's very boring. One thing that does make a big difference is cleaning the bit after each 30 or so holes the glues in MDF and plywood really gunk things up. There must be a technical term for "gunk things up".
It would be interesting to hear some comments on applying a finish to a mft top. Some say no, yet I see a lot of tops with some kind of finish, perhaps spray polyurathane.
I’ve used all kinds of finishes, and never really found a difference between them. A finish will,generally make glue and paint spills easier to clean, and may help keep the top looking decent. 👍 I talk about it a little more in the DIY MFT video here - Ikea Curtain track DIY MFT [video 487] - ruclips.net/video/223QALIbnRc/видео.html
Thanks Peter but am I missing something here? I bought a full MFT top off ebay for £35 and just use it as a template. Simply clamp over sheet of mdf and plunge out all holes in one process. Surely cheaper, faster , simpler and ultimately more accurate?
I think what you might be missing Alan is that I've made that point in every MFT video I've done - and there's a fair few - whereas this video is about MFT Jigs and templates; I'm assuming that the folks watching this have done their due diligence, and have decided that for whatever reason - a different size, shape, material, hole pattern, or simply the need for multiple tops - that one of these jigs suits their needs better than a cheap commodity top, but need a little help deciding where to put their money. That's the point of this video, not the debate about wether someone should buy or make, because that's ultimately a decision that only they can make. 👍
They all look good Peter ,but the second i think was the best,just think making it a little larger and adding two more holes that ran in a 45 one at the bottom and one in the 90 degree corner then you could use all 10 holes,but then using a CNC would allow you to just repeat the drilling over and over and over...lol,couldnt help but notice you have a few extras now ,i see a sale coming one your webstore
Thanks, Peter Excellent comparison. I am setting up my home workshop and am new to the MFT systems. Is there a preference for MDF over Ply? If using a non-treated board, will post sealing make the holes too tight?
Thanks! Ply isn't generally necessary - MDF was the what OEM Festool tops were made from and remains the general standard, upgraded to MRMDF; I may give ply a try for the next one though! 🤷♂️ 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I am guessing you are still able to get birch ply up there? Very difficult to get any decent ply or MDF down here in SW Cornwall. Most will not deliver
love my UJK system . I first bought WoodPeckers system and it was horribly off. I compounded fast with its template using 1/2 bit and template guide the larger you made the top. Ill have to get one of the Trend systems much faster. The UJK is nice but takes alot of time. The only down fall i see that can effect the routing systems is if you dont pre center your template guides on your router base perfect.
I have a Trend T4 which is 1/4 inch collet. Can I use that if I get the 30mm guide bush? Perfectly timed video for me as I have just bought the CNC jig. I'd love to know if I can treat my MR MDF with anything to help keep damp put. I have a very damp workshop in west Wales. Many thanks 😎
You could use the T4 with the RSPro jig because you can fed get a 1/2” bit for a 1-4” collet. Not sure I’ve seen a 20mm though, they’re usually 8mm shank minimum, so you’d need an 8mm collet for the T4 as well. Also check the plunge depth in the T4; from memory it’s only about 30-odd mm - you need 20 minimum just to clear the template and the material. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop thanks Peter. Unfortunately I don't understand what you typed so I guess I'm in the market for a 1/2 inch router. Shame really as I probably won't use it much, so now I am agonising over just getting a cheap (Erbauer) 1/2 inch router or spending a lot more and having something more capable for when I need it. As a DIY'r Ihave no idea what the difference is between a £90 one and a £400 one. Super confused
Did you get some discripancies between the hole with the Parf Guide or did the pilot hole ensured that the forstner bit always drill at the right angle?
With the Tend jig, how do you not end up routing out the jig holes? Looks like you are just plunging down without any guide and you can’t possibly be accurately centered on every hole every time, thereby cutting at least a thin arc every time into the jig and ruining it after just a few cuts in each hole. Maybe there is some kind of guide? But I never saw it even after repeat watching. Thx!
I have the mk I UJK Parf guide system. It's still in the shipping tube as I've yet to use it. I wish there was some sort of upgrade type of thing rather than having to pay full price for the better mk II. The one thing about the Parf system is, to be most efficient at using it, you need to have a Festool drill with the centrotec chuck particularly when using the 20mm bit. The Trend looks good. As far as being limited to only one row of holes after the first two are done, could you not turn the template 90 deg and then get 2 rows of 8? I'm surprised that the Trend was faster than the bigger mrmdf jig considering the amount of holes it has and that you dont lose any repositioning it. I guess that extra bit of hip wiggling adds up. Nice review of all of them Peter.
Thanks Patrick. The Parf bit is a regular hex, so any drill with a hex chuck will do eg Bisch, Milwaukee, Makita etc… The trend jig specifies hole pattern/ registration, so no, no swinging it through 90° sadly. And yes, I was also surprised that the RSPro jig took as long as it did , but as you say, all those little circular movements add up! 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Peter, I was referring to the issue of having to open and close the drill chuck when moving the jig. With the centrotec you just pop the bit out.
@@66meikou OK Patrick, but that’s not what I did. I took the centrotec chuck off and used the simple hex that the centrotec connects to. Easier and quicker. As I say, any hex chuck will do that. 👍
I feel the simplicity of the Parf system was a little misleading as without the Festool drill system I’ve seen videos where it seems a real hassle with any other brand of drill. I was going to suggest that the Trend jig could be rotated 90 degrees but I see that you have answered that quoting Trends guidance notes For the 3rd jig, although supplied with a smaller router bit, would a 20mm router bit and bush not have been easier and quicker As a mouldy oldie new to woodworking I have just made my top without a jig. Being careful in the layout, some initial routings were prone to a bit of wander but as it went on I was getting perfect fits for the orange ukj guides using no more than a dog and a trend router. I intend to work out how I will use it before having a second attempt and hopefully a near perfect top using my system
Any drill with a hex chuck will do - Bosch, Milwaukee, Makita etc… Dor the RS jig, it needs a 30mm guide bush and 12.7mm bit: substitute a 20mm bit and you’ll need a different guide bush. Or a different jig. 🤷♂️
Hey Peter, good video comparison as usual. The interesting bit for me was the Trend jig. As we have had a conversation before before, I found that a 20mm bit cut a hole which was bigger than 20mm as you get a fraction of a wobble when you plunge down. Had the 20mm precision ground, for a fiver, to 19.85mm cuts a great dog hole now. For my guide I am using Bosches version of the LR32. Another key point, which I found out the hard way, is use decent MDF. MR definitely as the smallest changes in the air humidity means dogs get stuck when the MDF swells just a fraction 🙈
Here in the UK all the jigs are more expensive than an off the shelf MFT top - the tops are a commodity item here - and yes, I’ve made that point in every other MFT video I’ve done. I know that’s not the case elsewhere though, so especially if you want a different size, material, or hole layout, then these jigs start to make sense. 👍
Clamp two sheets together and have a spare or flog it to a mate? I realy cant see me ever making more than two so the cheaper the jig the better or hire a cnc shop to make you one bespoke. A quick squirt of ptfe spray works wonders on mdf.
You can buy an MFT top more cheaply than any of these jigs. But not everyone want a standard size, or material, or hole layout. 🤷♂️ You pays your money and you makes your choice. 👍
Another good tutorial Peter. I have had a company with a CNC router make up a 77 hole table. The holes when measured with a digital Vernier are 19.6 mm. According to the company the bit on a CNC will always have some tolerance with wood. Am I being too pedantic or is this within spec. I drill a 20mm hole with a Forstner bit and it’s spot on 20mm.
Not pedantic at all Peter, that’s way off. 19.96mm and I’d say it’s in the ballpark, 19.98 and that’s pretty much spot on. Festools own MFT tops - and their own “20mm” bit for them - are actually between 20.16 - 20.2mm; I had a precision engineer pal grind the Festool bit down to make a snug fit for the BenchdogsUK benchdogs - you shouldn’t have to do that to the benchdogs to make then fit an undersized top! Out of interest can you actually fit a benchdog into it at that size? I’d be surprised if you could!
@@10MinuteWorkshop I could not get a 20mm dog to fit properly even with force. They asked that I give them a sample dog and they cut a new board for me until the sample fitted snugly. I can image that this took some time checking 77 holes but fortunately there was no additional cost as I emphasised the accuracy of the 20mm upfront. I was under the impression that CNC's were spot on but they informed me that with wood this was not guaranteed - metal on the other hand (according to them) is 100% accurate.
Just this week, I ordered a Parf Stick Connector at €5.95 to replace the one that I somehow lost when finishing up my first Paulk table. (I saw it bounce, but I could not find it.) Since I was ordering, I also added a 3-pack of the 3mm pins for €12. Shipping from U.K. to me here in Estonia was €21.13. Total, €39.08. So, maybe the Systainer pays for itself pretty quickly?
Come on Peter, let's see the ultimate DIY setup marking up with a rule and pencil and drilling out with a forstner bit! Maybe a a printed template at a push 😉
I have the Mk1 Part Guide & it has served very well, but I can now feel a minuscule amount of wear in the rulers. The Mk2 is far superior as the drill never touches the ruler when drilling the 3mm holes. I contacted Axminster to see if an upgrade kit would be offered for Mk1 owners, which seems a reasonable proposition. Sadly they were not interested & I will, eventually, have a jig in pristine condition with worn rulers.
That’s a great shame, and thanks for raising the topic. I’ve never had my hands on a Parf 1 guide, I didn’t realise that the drilling procedure was different, though I do recall Peter Parfitt saying that the Mk2 was better engineered. I believe Axminster still sell the Mk1, so perhaps the rules are available as a spare part? If you use it enough you’ll end up with the same issue of course, but if it extends the value of your initial investment for a few more years it may be worth enquiring into? Let me know how you get on. Best, Peter
Nice about the parf system is that its easy to add off grid holes near the back edge to attach or reference the back fence giving some extra work space on the table. Extra holes are available to have 32 or 48 mm spacings.
![DIY MFT with Ikea Curtain Track [video 487]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/223QALIbnRc/mqdefault.jpg)
![DIY MFT with Ikea Curtain Track [video 487]](/img/tr.png)
Ideally there would be a tool library where you could borrow a parf guide once every few years when you need it.
Just gotta mention something I tried and succeeded with yesterday. If you already have an mft top and want to reproduce it on another bench, just use it as a template by laying it in top of new one and using a Fischer wave cutter forstner bit. Can't believe how well it turned out, all for the cost of a 20 quid bit!
Your presentation was time well spent for me and I suspect the majority of your viewers. Very well done and an important overview of what’s available to get that job done……..
The Parf guide is not only good looking, but IMHO is more versatile than the others as you can prepare a surface for the grid without completing the 20mm holes. My process with the Parf guide for a surface where you don’t need all the 20mm holes in every position immediately is to drill a 3mm grid then it is trivial to add 20mm holes if needed. There is no loss of accuracy and the surface can be more useful for other purposes
Yep, should always start with the full grid of 3mm holes. 👌👍
You can use the revision dogs as well. (for later on, 48/32 20 mm offset holes)
Thanks for the comparison! I used the parf guide system, on a full sheet of MDF, that took almost a full day and left my trigger finger sore :)
People should be aware though about the UJK dogs; You need to chamfer the holes with the provided chamfer tool as the dogs have a lip on them that fits into it. If that lip sticks up it can dig into the side of your sheet and potentially misalign your cut by a millimeter over the distance between the dogs.
So chamfer the holes and make sure the dogs are correctly seated before making your cut. Or use some other dogs ;)
Thanks! Yes, not a fan of that kind of proprietary-ness in something as simple as a benchdog, and I particularly dislike chamfered holes on a bench! 👍
Thank you for mentioning the chamfer.
@@10MinuteWorkshop Why do you not like chamfered holes?
After spend months investigating the MFT jigs I went with the Parf Mark 2. Yes very expensive in Australia but accurate, repeatable and very high quality.
As you're in Aus, why didn't you give Dave Stanton a bell? He knock them out with a cnc.
A tip for the Parf Guide system - you should try and index from the 3mm pilot holes when boring as much as possible. They are quite a bit more accurate. Every time you index off the 20mm holes, the holes you bore have an extremely small error introduced. If you do the entire top like you have done here, those errors compound on each other to something more noticeable. It probably isn't an issue on a small MFT top like you are making here, but when doing a 4x8 sheet (or larger) this is a very serious issue.
The better way is to plan ahead and figure out how to bore the maximum number of holes while indexing only from the 3mm pilots, and only once you're completely finished with that step you go on to bore the rest. This way it's entirely possible that every bored hole is indexed either from good 3mm pilots, or a 20mm hole which was itself indexed off a 3mm pilot.
It's also much better to ensure you have a pin (or indexing dog) on either side of the hole you're boring - the way your'e doing it here (with the indexing dogs both on one side of the hole you're boring) enables quite a lot more deflection and introduces a lot of potential for error.
I also find it essential to clamp down the boring jig for the four corners.
I am amazed how frequently I pull out the Parf Guide system - it really opens up a lot of possibilities for somebody without a CNC!
Yes! I did not do this on my 1st Parf mft 4'x8' clone and ended up about 3/32 -5/32 out of square over the 8' run. Like Peter I checked my squareness with a big precision square (TSO), and within the range of the square cumulative drift is effectively zero, however cut a big 3x7 sheet using 4 cut method and it won't be square. Over the size of average casework, like kitchen cabinets boxes and doors, the drift is not perceptible. But if you need something really precise for large pieces you need to use your method.
Totally agree with your comment here Jim.
Haven't got a Parf guide yet, but plan to in a few months.
Seems to me another accuracy factor is to minimize how many generations of holes you have. Not sure if there's a better word for this but I'm thinking (using Peter's drilling sequence here) the (8?) holes drilled from the original Parf stick placement are 1st gen holes, the perpendicular lines of holes at the ends drilled from the 6-8-10 assembly are 2nd gen holes because they're based off of 1st gen holes, the holes drilled at the rearward long edge are 3rd gen holes because they're based on 2nd gen holes, and the central field holes are 4th gen holes because they're based on 3rd (and 1st) gen holes. Point is you can do your drilling so there are no 4th gen holes which can reduce the cumulative error from having more generations than you need. You can also make many of the 3rd gen holes be 2nd gen, further reducing potential error.
Jim, excellent advice. My parf guide arrives in a couple of days and I did not know the nuances you mentioned. The info and advice is much appreciated.
@@NWGR no problem. I would strongly suggest going back to the catalog of The New Brit Workshop and seeing all Peter has to say about using the system. I picked up most of those tips from him, although some of them I discovered through my own experience with the system.
Thanks for your work on this Peter. One way to improve the extraction on the Parf dust extractor is to press a piece of very dense closed cell foam, like the packaging foam that comes around many tools etc when shipped, into the slot of the jig that is not being used - it increases the suction on the remaining active one. I think this a Peter Parfit tip from his demo video & it really works.
The thing that pushed me to the Parf system was the ease with which you could do in-between holes.
Awesome content as we have come to expect? I purchased the Parf guide kit and have investigated various alternative hole patterns, mostly through the Britt workshop channel (another awesome channel). I have since put additional holes in my MFT and configured a Paulk work bench with custom holes. These all have additional holes to the main standard pattern. I love the extra functionality and precision of the Parf guide. I will also use this to make jigs that will sit above and below the take surface such as bench vice, etc. One thing I think you did not mention is that the Parf kit comes with a chamfer tool, at least I think it does. I have both the chamfer bit and combo chamfer reamer bit. These are necessary to get the chamfer range of dogs to work, plus after you shellac the MDF you do not need to worry about any build up in the holes or at the chamfer. Very much appreciate your sharing your knowledge. Cheers from Newfoundland Canada.
Brilliant video mate, you should get an award fir dedication to showing mft jigs, that's a lot of holes bored mate fair play
Cheers Dan! 👍
Great comparison! I purchased the Parf Guide 2 system this year and used it on a 4x8 sheet of MDF. I like how accurate it was and following the recommendations of the instructions really minimizes and drift. My biggest issue was making sure you get the pins seated correctly in the ruler. Take you time when doing that and things will go great.
Thanks! 👍
@6:35 What I found was that using the provided dust shroud impeded dust collection. Probably because of those discs that happen often. What I did was to just leave the hose at the two holes seen @5:31. It seemed to work much better. But the UJK Parf Guide is a BEAST. And it's a lifetime investment as there is nothing that will wear out. And it's so simple to use as well. As for squareness? It's dead nuts accurate.
I just finished a 44”x80” top with the Parf System. Amazing jig, took a while for sure but I did an alternate layout and it it turned out amazing
Ive been wondering which jig is the best but no one has tested the three versions I’ve been looking at until now. Thank you Peter, you have saved me at least £100!
Give it a few weeks, I might save you a bit more... 🤔
Sounds good. Problem is the saving really means thinking I’ve got money to spend on other goodies for the workshop. Great videos, thanks.
I pondered on different systems for many months. Finally bit the billet and got a Parf guide system. So glad I did. It has tremendous flexibility. When using a Festool track it is ideal to have alternative hole locations so it can do this with ease Whilst I would like a router option I know there would be a time when I would take a knock out the jig and ruin it. So Parf system is my vote.
Apart from the 32 and 48 mm offset holes option you mentioned, the Parf system also lets you make rows at 30 and 60 degrees.
Yes, all covered under ‘alternative hole patterns’ - though I’d be curious to hear how many people actually use them. 🤔👍
Thank you my friend. I’m in the USA and you are Spot On!
Thank you very much for the time and for the effort you put in you videos …
Bob
Great vid Peter! I invested in the Parf Guide 2 system a couple of years ago - I felt the small storage size and long-term dimensional stability of the metal components compared to the MDF alternatives over, say, 25+ years (I’m in my mid 30’s!) was worth the extra initial cost. What blew me away with the UJK kit was the quality of the components- especially the 3mm drill bit and 20mm cutter! Being able to have half-spaced holes meant setting up for my new Bench Dogs Rail Hinge was a breeze too. Another factor was that I felt the UJK system would hold up to wear better than the MDF templates- granted you can adjust with the tape but if the wear isn’t concentric you will end up potentially out of square.
Thanks Colin. Yes, the Parf Guide 2 is a very well put together piece of kit, and having some modest experience with small-volume production and manufacturing, I'm impressed that they can do it for the price they do. As you say, it's a long-term investment that will continue to produce great results for years to come, and with an almost guaranteed resale value if you ever do decide to move it on. No getting around that fact that you're drilling one hole at a time though... 👍 👍
I was looking at all three of these systems and went with the Parf guide as I didn't have a router that would produce consecutive accurate results after some experimenting with router jigs. The Parf system is also easier to store in my small work space it is a bit costly but I figured i'd have it and use it for many years to come and you get two long steel rules that are always handy.
Don't know when I've seen a better explanation of the separate systems.Good stuff!
Thank you! I was aiming at being the standard reference video for all DIY MFTers out there! 👍
I was lucky enough to invest in a UJK jig before it became double the price and what it retails for now. Been putting MFT holes in every worktop I have ever since.
Great comparison! I have the original Parf Guide and it is pretty slow going, but it's a nice piece of kit.
It really is! 👍
Grazie.
Thanks for the comparison Peter. I used the Axminster set when I built my version of your portable bench. Definitely a bit spendy but well worth it. I don’t believe I could have done as well with a movable jig. Regarding the “boring” part (I see what you did there), I did not drill the entire top. I add them as needed for the particular task. Saves time initially, and I can stomach (ok rationalize) the cost a bit better using it a few times a year rather than once a year or two. Nice video as usual.
Same here. I went with three worktops with specific set of holes.
First one I made a full grid of 3mm holes, as there are easy and 'fast' drilled. Than I checked were I need dogholes and added them later. Here comes the parfjig to shine. It is easy an accurate to only, make on row of holes rectangular to a nother row, evan on a full sheet.
I justified the high cost with sharing the jig with woodworking friends and preparing worktops for others.
BTW if you don't raise your worktop but put it at a spoilboard, you prevent the spinning disks of MDF
Thank you for the time and effort to put this piece together. Perfectly explained, huge fan of your work! 😃
Thanks! 👍
With parf guide you can also make holes in 30 degree pattern to each other when others are 90 or 45 degree. Parf guide is the most versatile if you need that option.
As I mentioned in the vid under 'alternative holes patterns and spacing' 👍
Great video, as always. I probably need to go watch it again.
I do wish decent CNC service for wood was available more widely in the States, or even just the Cnc’d tops. I have an idea for a rather nonstandard top I’d like to make… but I’m not sure I’m competent to manage it without a CNC. Guess I’ll have to convince the wife to buy me a CNC…
Fantastic timing Peter, I am about to embark on my own MFT top for my newly acquired garage which I am converting to a workshop. I am however, attempting to create the MFT top with no purchased guides or jigs, but have opted to try and make my own jig, starting out with a piece of Meccano to provide regularly spaced accurate holes.
Throughout my research, I've found no justified reason for the 96mm centres, so I think I will opt for 100mm for easier math.
Thanks again for all of your content, you are one of the main inspirations for me to try and cross over into the woodworking industry whilst in my mid 30's and with a family, so the regular apprenticeship route is not feasible for me at this time.
Pleasure, glad it was helpful. No reason not to make your own, just be fastidious in your marking and your maths. No reason for 96mm centres, other than compatibility with existing hardware eg benchdogs quad hinge, or MFT dogs in a rail square. 👍
In expanding my skillset from professional green woodworking into a some more accurate shapes, learning what technique I will need to learn and and what kit suits my set up has been easy and fun through watching well over half of your video output. Having spent so much on tools I can't afford to pay to join the support group right now, but just to say a huge thank you for the articulate and well thought out videos.
I used the Trend jig recently and it worked great. I slowed down my router speed which stopped the burning marks inside the hole. Only issue I had was 2 days later I spotted I missed a hole right in the middle! I've left it like that as a reminder to pay better attention. Thanks for the great videos.
Thanks Paul! Yes, figured it had to be a speed thing - either too fast on the plunge or too fast on the router! 👍
Great comparrison Peter, probably not much between all three in terms of accuracy but I'm probably a bit biased as I bought the UJK Parf Guide Mkll system over a year ago and loved it when boring out 191 dog holes in my new workbench which has a side apron as well full of dog holes.
I also used the facility of boring some "offset" holes which allows for taller dogs to be placed in such a postion that your plunge saw track doesn't end up running straight across the middle of a column of holes when its up against the dogs to keep it square.
UJK (Axminster Tools) also now sell "retrospective dogs" which are a 20mm dogs with a 3mm hole pre-drilled in the center so you can re-fit the rulers with the pins in the correct holes to allow you to accurate bore offset 20mm dog holes, quite useful if you decide you need them at a later date.
Yes it's quite a bit more expensive and a bit slower, but if you are doing lots of bench tops I think it might last considerably longer than the other two, possibly 😁
The Systainer is a great idea, but you still need somewhere to keep the "Parf Sticks" where they won't get damaged, so working on an idea for that at the moment.
Look forward to the next video, keep up the great work.
Thanks Colin! Yes, the steel rules are a blessing and a curse. Handy to have and useful outside of the parf guide - as are the benchdogs and forstner bit - but a pain to keep! 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I mulled over the parf stick storage problem for a while - defineitly something you want to protect. Eventually I came up with a solution I'm pretty proud of - they fit perfectly into a piece of electrical trunking/conduit (I think it was 40mmx16mm for B&Q). I cut it about 30mm longer than the sticks, added two end caps and a batton (~30x10mm) to keep it stiff.
Excellent, objective review of the 3 different systems to make an MFT. I’m certainly very curious to see what your DIY solution/system will be to make one!👍🤔
I have the Parf mk2 and the advantage you didn't mention in the video is you have the ability to make offset holes so your tracksaw doesn't cut through your holes. Great video, very informative
Thanks, and I'm pretty sure I did mention 'alternative hole layouts' wether the odd angles that Peter seems to love, or offset 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop my apologies Peter you did, I missed it so watched it again
Before anyone jumps in to plunging 20mm holes I'd recommend doing a test first. I tried this and although the cutter diameter was 20mm the hole size I ended up with was more like 20.2 which is useless for an MFT. I never did get to the bottom of the issue, it could have been cutter runout or down to the router bearings. Woodworker beware.
Actuallym the Festool 'standard' for MFT holes is 20.2mm - that's a topic for another video entirely! But yes, I've been collecting 20mm bits for a while, and overwhelmingly the difference 'between them' is down to router run-out. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Hi Peter, so what bit is the most accurate for 20mm then? I'm planning on making my MFT with your method over the next few weeks so it would be great to be able to get the right bit first time.
@@1larfinboy I got a 20mm resharpen down to 19.85mm and this gives a really tight fit.
@@1larfinboy This is not from Peter but I have a few 20mm router bits and I have found that the best for MDF holes is the Trend, which is the one that Peter used. My tests are not scientific, just make a hole and try it. The bench dogs I use are the Benchdogs UK Quad Dogs which have the expanding rubber rings. However, the bit with the Parf Guide system is a tighter fit. As Peter says, first try the bit on a scrap piece.
In the instructions trend recommend reducing the cutter RPM for this application, which in conjunction with peck drilling the holes, reduces vibration and therefore the production of oversized holes.
I’m a huge fan of the trend jig as it’s so much faster then messing about with rulers, pins, pegs, drill bits and other numerous paraphernalia which is easily lost and more time-consuming to replace or maintain when compared with one router one router bit, with the included extraction that is also clearer whilst working.
Very good vids. You pre, live, overdub, and post narrate very effective. And you don't feel compelled to use guitar power chord tracks. Nice.
I was slightly intimidated by the parf system for a year and a half. Maybe I just thought I’d screw it up or there’s no way it’ll work that good. I’m blown away by how easy it is to use and how accurate it is. Made two tops this past week and they are flawless. As square as it can be. I have extremely accurate measuring devices, more accurate than I ever need for woodworking, everything is a go. Can’t say enough about it
That’s great to hear, thank you! 👍
Heh Peter, 50 v 7 minuets no brainer if you have the £1K of Festool kit and you are in business knocking the MFT3 tops out of for cash but I suppose for most of us one two or maybe even three MFT3 tops are plenty so buying one already made from a CNC company for £40ish, it varies, may be the best way to go as they are readily available from a few sources. The comparison video here is just first class and excellent if you are in that zone of making your own with or without the flexibility you have alluded to here. Brilliant and super clear Peter thanks for sharing.
Thanks David! 👍
Hi Peter, I bought the Trend 20mm x 25 x ½” router bit to drill some dog holes in 18mm MDF using my Benchdogs hinge jig and I too had scorching. Initially I had the router speed too high and the heat generation melted the MDF glue and caused serious tear out inside the bore. I reduced the router speed to minimum and that stopped the tear out but I still had some scorching. So instead I purchased a Festool 20mm x 25 x 8mm spiral upcut cutter (I had to get a Leigh ½” x 8mm collet reducer too) and that gives much cleaner cuts, slight burning at top speed and completely burn free at minimum speed. The cutter is slightly more expensive than the Trend one and you have the additional cost of the collet reducer, but I think the much superior performance is well worth the total increase of £13. An additional benefit is improved dust extraction, which is a real bonus for me because I have a De Walt router which has, at best, awful dust control.
Thanks Steve. Yes, I use the Festool bit myself, nice but, but slightly oversized for most regular dogs. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Hi Peter, I agree though the Trend 20mm router bit creates similarly oversized dog holes as the Festool bit. Only the Parf Guide cutter creates a tight fit. But since even tight fit dog holes get a bit sloppy over time I tend to use dogs that tighten into the dog hole, which also avoids the need to use star knobs to lock the dogs in place. Steve
your videos made me venture down the MFT route and they have been a gamechanger. i am still using my initial 50 quid with 4 alu dogs one although has been flipped over and oiled again now.
for anyone wondering if its a route worth taking i'd say go for it. you can always buy one and use a template bit to make more which i did when i got mine. i made a couple of smaller tops that i use as extensions or i can sit my chop saw on a base with dogs easily as i rarely use it. makes it super stable and can place where i need it most. plus use dogs for clamping stop blocks etc
I love your videos. This is a very good one.
I use the UJK system and find it very flexible. I use mainly the top and bottom row for a cutting station with a Festool guide rail as I have no space for a hinge like you use.
In between the 3mm pilot holes I added grooves with the Microjig Matchfit router bit for use with clamps and sleds.
Thanks a lot for your video series.
Thanks Lars! I think you might quite like the next video…👍👍
Looking forward to the next one!
Nice 1 Peter 👍 well presented and very fair assessments. Nice to see how interactive your channel is with viewers suggestions....big nod to you.
Thanks Jesse! 👍
I do like the triangle math of the parf. Elegant if not quick.
Thanks Peter! How about using a new MFT top as a full size template?
You can, but it’s fiddly to do. I bought one to do that way back - before MFT jigs or affordable CNCs were a thing - and it’s a tight radius to copy with a flush trim bit, and surprisingly time-consuming. 🤷♂️👍
It is the best option imo, and 100% accurate. With a template 30mm holes and a 20 mm bit & guidebush it must be 100% centered and is not easy to do and stay centered all the way.
You can do a 30-60 degree grid with the parfguide system, which is also 90 degrees. That's my reason I bought the PGS.
I tried the old mark 1 parf guide system but quickly sold it as it was slow & a complete mess, as you said in the vid. Didn't lose too much money on it as they're popular & easy to sell on. Now use the RS pro CNC jig (I splashed out & got the ply one for longevity) & find it miles faster & easier to use & it's a bargain compared to anything else. Can't argue with the accuracy of either. At the end of the day the accuracy of whatever comes out of my workshop starts with my cutting table.
I bought the trend one in the end. The payment section of the CNC website for the other place didn't work although I am considering buying a CNC machine to make stuff and sell it online.
I've got the parf mark ii. I made an mft-style work top using a full sheet of plywood. One half was accurate and the other half was a bit off. User error? Probably. It took me quite a while to finish it.
I've been thinking about having a cnc shop make for me a large template out of 3/8" polycarbonate, maybe 30" x 40" with 30mm holes, 96mm on center.
I think the parf system has an inherent flaw. You place the rulers on top of each other in the triangle corner which slightly changes the length and therefore the position of the holes. This will accumulate if you need to make a full sheet.
@@gilad_paz
In my opinion what you're saying isn't an issue. Plus, to counter any possible effect the bending of the top ruler might have I shimmed it level, just to be sure. I used shims that were the same thickness of the bottom ruler and along the entire length. Again, I don't think that should be an issue. As I said, one side is perfect, the other side is off.
My issue is it took a long time. I'm a finish carpenter and I have plenty of patience to do detailed work, and the parf mark ii is good, it takes too long in my opinion.
@@gilad_paz
I'd bet that if I did it again I'd get it just about perfect, I'm not sure I have the patience. On the other hand how often do I need to make a new top? Every couple of years?
@@ThekiBoran thanks for your reply. I still think there may be a problem. No mater how you shim, seems to me there will always be at least on of the 3 rulers that will not be equally distanced from the sheet you are working on, on both of its ends. At least one end will be closer to the sheet then the other. Also, if you rais two ends of a ruler then maybe other issues will arise, and still another ruler will not be completly paralel to the sheet.
@@gilad_paz
It's been a year since I used the parf mark ii but it only has 2 rulers.
I am considering a new top. MRMDF or Trycora. I have had problems with damp as I use mine out doors as well as the work shop.
Thankd for the comparison on these Peter, much appreciated. The parf guide system will probably be the one I go for when I make some MFT tops for my shop. The trend and rspro jigs seem nice enough, but aren't as easy to source for use in the united states. Woodpecker makes one similar to the trend jig but uses a 1/2" bit like the rspro. That seems nice as well, but I'm still leaning towards the parfguide.
Thanks! Yes, I was surprised to learn recently that Trend doesn’t have as wide a distribution in the US as we tend to think here; got to buy what you can buy, right? 👍👍
Being a Woodpeckers product, I have to think it's got to be close to if not more than the UJK set.
@@66meikou $140 usd for the 20mm set. They have a 3/4" set too for the same price or a combo set for $200. Not bad, but still a bit pricey.
@@NWGR I'll have to have a butcher's over at woodpeckers then. I bought the mkI Parf jig about 8 yrs ago so I can't remember what I paid for it.
Great video as always Peter, many thanks. I would be very interested to see another one on more jigs to do the odd alternative hole, if such a selection exists. For those times when you could just do with another hole right there. In particular, centre to two standard holes & centre to four standard holes. I would be hard pressed to justify the cost of the UJK Parf Guide 2 for a couple of holes. Your thoughts on the best way to go about it accurately with other standard kit would be interesting to.
Thanks Milo. You might want to watch this space - or join the member channel at 10minuteworkshop.plus - free signup at the moment, paid tiers won't start until August - as there might be a member video out in the next couple of weeks that will be of interest. 👍
I bought the parf guide system to make the Dzve Stanton bench as it gives off set and halfway hole.
Very good!
If I may ask,” We’re you able to measure the accuracy , hole to hole”?
Thank you for sharing not only your time, sharing your talent.
Bob
USA
Thanks! No - measuring to a fraction of a mm or degree is beyond my simple skills. I can take a triangle that’s been precision machined on a CNC that cost more than your car and mine together and check for square both on the edges and using the dog holes on 96mm centres, and I can make cuts over longer distances bearing against dogs in the holes and again, check for squareness. If it satisfies those simple tests, it’s ‘square enough’ for me, and as any engineer will tell you, there’s no such thing as square, just varying degrees of out of square! Thanks! Peter
I know it’s not cheap and beyond a lot of peoples budgets, but I have a Shaper Origin Handheld CNC. At £2500 it’s not cheap but you can do so much with it. Once you supply it with the SVG codes, you can MFT any board accurately to any hole design in one go. It part pays for its self in making all those expensive jigs, dogs bench squares, excessive router bits etc…etc. worth a review if you can get your hands on one.
Let's just say that most folks think the Parf guide is expensive at £200, and leave it at that! 👍
I have the RS CNC jig and have now made 4 'standard' MFT tops with it 2 for myself and 2 for mates, can't really fault it especially at the price, made me wonder though if it would be possible to use a sized to fit bush and a 20mm router bit with it (as per the Trend) instead of the recommended 1/2" bit, would it retain the accuracy (with the 1/2" bit it's perfect, btw), feel an experiment coming on, great review Peter
Thanks John! Yes, indeed; let’s just say I’ll be taking the less ones learned from this experience forwards with me… 🤔👍
Another very interesting video. I bought my MFT top from Rick at CNC Design in Wrexham three years ago and it has lasted me well. All their products are incredible value for money and the RS Pro jig is no exception and I think if I was in the market for a jig, to make a new top, them it would be the one that I would go for. Why pay oodles of dosh more for a smart shiny set, when all you want to do is drill a set of accurate holes in a sheet of MDF and from your test it seems the best value for money and very easy to use!
Not really in the spirit of this video, but worth pointing out that if you live on mainland UK, you can have an MFT replacement top for £75, delivered, including 6 bench dogs, from RS Pro CNC. There are other cheaper offerings on Ebay, including birch ply and the ubiquitous (on 10MW!) MR MDF, but I haven’t tried them. Can recommend the RS Pro CNC top however, came fast and well-packaged, and is on a factory-second Axminster MFT table, so I have an MFT setup for less than £150, although I do need to build a base for it
A point that I've laboured over in every video that I've done about MFTs - and that's a fair few - is that it's cheaper to buy an MFT top from CNC Designs - nee RS - than it is to make your own **provided all you want is a single, standard-size MFT top from MRMDF or Birch ply** Want something in a different material, or in a different size, or more than one, then these jigs can start to make sense. I bought my MFT top from Rick in Wrexham when I did my backyard budget MFT build, cost ~£75 including the top. 👍
A question on both of the router-based methods - how can you possibly get the guide bushing *perfectly* centered so rotation of the router doesn't introduce any error? I suppose if you try to keep the router in the same orientation for each hole, the error will be quite small indeed. It does look like you got a great result with all three methods!
You centre the guide bush with a mandrel. Works very well. 👍
I was wondering how the routing was working too. You just ‘plunged’ into the routing without showing how it was working. Why wasn’t the router bit routing into the jig and making it slightly larger with each plunge?
If you have a router buy the latter two. if you don't, buy the parfitt. The CNC jig being made of MDF will mean it could be affected by moisture or compression. The CNC is £45 but there's £15 postage on that. glad you have done this as was just about to purchase one. Think I will get CNC and varnish it!
The CNC designs jig is MRMDF, you'll have to take it in the shower with you for moisture to affect it. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thanks Peter, good to know. That's the one I will get.
Thanks for the breakdown, Peter! I ended up getting the Trend jig, and wanted to make people aware of a potential “gotcha” with regards to the bit.
Trend seems to make at least two 20mm router bits - the C030CX1/2TC, which is the one you’ve got linked, produced 20.2mm holes for me and some other people in the Amazon reviews. It also has only a 25mm cutting depth, which was just barely long enough for my router/guide bush combo to plunge through 18mm stock.
The C030DX1/2TC bit is specifically called out by trend as being suitable for mft top production, and presumably not oversized (I’m still waiting on mine to arrive from across the pond to confirm). It also has a 40mm depth of cut, offering more flexibility for material thicknesses.
All that to say - you may want to change your Amazon link to point to the C030DX1/2TC bit.
Thanks! The bit isn't the issue, it's the router. I'll have more on this soon. 👍
Peter i love watching your videos. Keep ip up bro.
Thanks! 👍
Would love to see all three boards stacked on top of each other, just to see if they all lined up. Cheers.
∆ This!
If I did that I’d get someone whining that I hadn’t used enough benchdogs, or I should do it with different ones at the top, or that I hadn’t used the correct benchdogs etc.. etc.. 🤷♂️
@@10MinuteWorkshop I hear you, but did they line up??
Hi Peter, you might want to check the accuracy over the distance of the top. Like a fence. My money would be on the part system!! Great videos as always. Thanks.
Oh, I have; there’s no discernible difference between any of the three tops. 👍
I have 40cm of work surfaces all round. , Parf UKJ Park 2 you can use the rulers to make some mad setups, I've got my shed from side to side and end to end MFT's and all square.
Very helpful and interesting. Novice questions: if going for the router method what's the cheapest brand and lowest power you'd all trust for the job? Equally I've been surprised how affordable CNC tops can be found currently. Anyone know how the accuracy compares?
I have my own MFT jig coming along shortly, but I wouldn’t trust any 1/4”’router to this job except the Festool OF1010, and even then you can do better for a lot less money in the 1/2” sector. As I think I say in the video, MFT tops are a commodity item here in the UK at Kew than the cost of any one of these jigs, so you pays your money and makes your choice. 🤷♂️👍
12:32 if those small holes around the perimeter were 20mm and properly placed, you could use all ten of the holes for drilling all the time. And, the jig would be lighter
Except they're not, and you can't. And I'm sure the OEM would argue that they're properly placed for what they're meant to do... 🤷♂️ 👍
These look like very nice jigs - I'm a little surprised at how expensive they are though, at least over in the States. TSO wants $234 for the Parf Guide mk2 and the Trend one is $100. I've had excellent luck just removing the MFT segment from an MFT Systainer ($60) and using that as a guide - and then I've got a systainer afterwards. Never have enough boxes.
The GBP50 PRO Jig seems like a keeper though.
Yes, the Parf guide is £200 here, about $240. Good tip with the MFT Sys though! 👍
I have the both the RS pro jig and the Parf mk2 system, I wasn't impressed with the RS pro jig. I ended up making 4 mft tops with it and each one the holes got progressively worse with slop, despite making sure the guide bush was a good fit. So i ended up biting the bullet and buying the Parf system which was better, but as you said a lot slower.
Interesting, thanks! Yes, I was surprised how much effort the RS jig too - those little circular motions were quite wearing, and whilst I had no issues, I did wonder if they'd cause problems with the jig moving, or the holes in the jig wearing. Good to hear the Parf guide is doing the business for you. 👍
When using the template and router did you make sure the bit was centered in the guide bushing? I have an OF1400 and to my surprise it was nowhere near centered.
Great review as usual. I wish I moved as quickly as you do 😂. It’s the parf guide for me.
Thanks Michael, glad it was helpful! 👍
I haven't been able to contact Peter about this, but the machinists soul in me really wants him to include a couple small shims (the same thickness as the rulers) in the parf guide system, for that step where one ruler overlaps the other at one point, but touches the table at the other extreme. The slight triangle created by the change in height throws off the accuracy just enough that some people have had trouble lining up the holes. None of them seem to know why. Do you perchance have a direct line to this guy??
I'm completely with you there! If you search for any of Peter Parfitt's videos you should be able to send him a message. I've contacted him a few times now
No. We've spoken a couple of times, but I wouldn't say I knew him. Most youtubers are pretty approachable, I'm sure he'll have some method of contact in his 'about' tab on his channel. 👍
Hi Peter with the parf guide 2 system you can do isometric tops (see Peter parfit videos) worth looking at cheers for the good videos
Yes, as I say in the vid about ‘alternative hole patterns’ - not sure anyone but Peter actually uses them though! 👍
Personally I love the CNC designs jig, I have used it twice so far and each time it has been spot on.
Good product and great value. I found it quite tiring to use - all those little circular motions of the router - and surprisingly, slower than the trend to do a full top. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Very true, however I also used the handle holes to make larger ones around the edge for clamping holes to give more flexibility,
At first I was just going to buy a replacement MFT top, and use it as a template... with a flush cut router bit. And just use dogs to register it as I extend the grid. Then use the Parf reemer to _exact-ify_ the holes.
Do you see any issue with this? Maybe just wear on the original holes from the bearing? Thankyou.
No, no issues with this; best to screw the tops together, rather than clamp them or use dogs to register, and you really need to concentrate so’s not to mess up - that small circular motion is really awkward and doesn’t get any easier on repeat. My only question would be why bother, unless you need several or odd sizes or hole patterns, especially with MFT tops being a commodity?
The best Peter, love your videos 👍
Great video! I guess the cnc design jig is the best for me. It is more easier to find a 1/2 inch bit with 2-3 inch length. Although it is slow, I don’t need to make dog holes frequently.
Love this review. Now I need to purchase in US.
Interesting I made mine without any of these products and the current state of the AUD makes purchases from the UK very exxy. I did mine in 4 goes because as you said it's very boring. One thing that does make a big difference is cleaning the bit after each 30 or so holes the glues in MDF and plywood really gunk things up. There must be a technical term for "gunk things up".
Hey gunk things up works for me!
It would be interesting to hear some comments on applying a finish to a mft top. Some say no, yet I see a lot of tops with some kind of finish, perhaps spray polyurathane.
I’ve used all kinds of finishes, and never really found a difference between them. A finish will,generally make glue and paint spills easier to clean, and may help keep the top looking decent. 👍 I talk about it a little more in the DIY MFT video here - Ikea Curtain track DIY MFT [video 487] - ruclips.net/video/223QALIbnRc/видео.html
Thanks Peter but am I missing something here?
I bought a full MFT top off ebay for £35 and just use it as a template. Simply clamp over sheet of mdf and plunge out all holes in one process. Surely cheaper, faster , simpler and ultimately more accurate?
I think what you might be missing Alan is that I've made that point in every MFT video I've done - and there's a fair few - whereas this video is about MFT Jigs and templates; I'm assuming that the folks watching this have done their due diligence, and have decided that for whatever reason - a different size, shape, material, hole pattern, or simply the need for multiple tops - that one of these jigs suits their needs better than a cheap commodity top, but need a little help deciding where to put their money. That's the point of this video, not the debate about wether someone should buy or make, because that's ultimately a decision that only they can make. 👍
Alan your mft top off ebay comes with 20mm holes, right? What do you use or how do you drill your new holes?
They all look good Peter ,but the second i think was the best,just think making it a little larger and adding two more holes that ran in a 45 one at the bottom and one in the 90 degree corner then you could use all 10 holes,but then using a CNC would allow you to just repeat the drilling over and over and over...lol,couldnt help but notice you have a few extras now ,i see a sale coming one your webstore
Thanks Syd! Oh, Inhave a few other MFT projects planned, pretty sure they’ll all get used up! 😂👍
Thanks, Peter Excellent comparison. I am setting up my home workshop and am new to the MFT systems. Is there a preference for MDF over Ply? If using a non-treated board, will post sealing make the holes too tight?
Thanks! Ply isn't generally necessary - MDF was the what OEM Festool tops were made from and remains the general standard, upgraded to MRMDF; I may give ply a try for the next one though! 🤷♂️ 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I am guessing you are still able to get birch ply up there? Very difficult to get any decent ply or MDF down here in SW Cornwall. Most will not deliver
@@Selkian You can get it but not at a price I'm prepared to pay any more. 🤷♂
love my UJK system . I first bought WoodPeckers system and it was horribly off. I compounded fast with its template using 1/2 bit and template guide the larger you made the top. Ill have to get one of the Trend systems much faster. The UJK is nice but takes alot of time. The only down fall i see that can effect the routing systems is if you dont pre center your template guides on your router base perfect.
Yes, centring the guide bush with a mandrel is essential. 👍
Which would be better for a double thickness top?
I have a Trend T4 which is 1/4 inch collet. Can I use that if I get the 30mm guide bush? Perfectly timed video for me as I have just bought the CNC jig. I'd love to know if I can treat my MR MDF with anything to help keep damp put. I have a very damp workshop in west Wales. Many thanks 😎
You could use the T4 with the RSPro jig because you can fed get a 1/2” bit for a 1-4” collet. Not sure I’ve seen a 20mm though, they’re usually 8mm shank minimum, so you’d need an 8mm collet for the T4 as well. Also check the plunge depth in the T4; from memory it’s only about 30-odd mm - you need 20 minimum just to clear the template and the material. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop thanks Peter. Unfortunately I don't understand what you typed so I guess I'm in the market for a 1/2 inch router. Shame really as I probably won't use it much, so now I am agonising over just getting a cheap (Erbauer) 1/2 inch router or spending a lot more and having something more capable for when I need it. As a DIY'r Ihave no idea what the difference is between a £90 one and a £400 one. Super confused
surely the trend jig with a slight modification could have the dog holes outside the 10 - so you have 10 avalable all the time
If only they made it big enough to allow for that. 🤷♂️
Did you get some discripancies between the hole with the Parf Guide or did the pilot hole ensured that the forstner bit always drill at the right angle?
No, none at all. The pilot hole system - as painful as it is - really ensures that the dog holes stay true. 👍👍
Hey Peter, any reason why you didn't include the lr32 way of making an mft table in this video?
LR32 including eg an OF1010 router is well over a grand, so a pretty niche option tbh. 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshopfair point. If including the lr32 method, which is your preferred?
With the Tend jig, how do you not end up routing out the jig holes? Looks like you are just plunging down without any guide and you can’t possibly be accurately centered on every hole every time, thereby cutting at least a thin arc every time into the jig and ruining it after just a few cuts in each hole. Maybe there is some kind of guide? But I never saw it even after repeat watching. Thx!
The trend jig requires the use a 30mm guide bushing on the router to keep it centered in the holes.
I have the mk I UJK Parf guide system. It's still in the shipping tube as I've yet to use it. I wish there was some sort of upgrade type of thing rather than having to pay full price for the better mk II. The one thing about the Parf system is, to be most efficient at using it, you need to have a Festool drill with the centrotec chuck particularly when using the 20mm bit.
The Trend looks good. As far as being limited to only one row of holes after the first two are done, could you not turn the template 90 deg and then get 2 rows of 8?
I'm surprised that the Trend was faster than the bigger mrmdf jig considering the amount of holes it has and that you dont lose any repositioning it. I guess that extra bit of hip wiggling adds up.
Nice review of all of them Peter.
Thanks Patrick. The Parf bit is a regular hex, so any drill with a hex chuck will do eg Bisch, Milwaukee, Makita etc… The trend jig specifies hole pattern/ registration, so no, no swinging it through 90° sadly. And yes, I was also surprised that the RSPro jig took as long as it did , but as you say, all those little circular movements add up! 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Peter, I was referring to the issue of having to open and close the drill chuck when moving the jig. With the centrotec you just pop the bit out.
@@66meikou OK Patrick, but that’s not what I did. I took the centrotec chuck off and used the simple hex that the centrotec connects to. Easier and quicker. As I say, any hex chuck will do that. 👍
I feel the simplicity of the Parf system was a little misleading as without the Festool drill system I’ve seen videos where it seems a real hassle with any other brand of drill.
I was going to suggest that the Trend jig could be rotated 90 degrees but I see that you have answered that quoting Trends guidance notes
For the 3rd jig, although supplied with a smaller router bit, would a 20mm router bit and bush not have been easier and quicker
As a mouldy oldie new to woodworking I have just made my top without a jig. Being careful in the layout, some initial routings were prone to a bit of wander but as it went on I was getting perfect fits for the orange ukj guides using no more than a dog and a trend router. I intend to work out how I will use it before having a second attempt and hopefully a near perfect top using my system
Any drill with a hex chuck will do - Bosch, Milwaukee, Makita etc… Dor the RS jig, it needs a 30mm guide bush and 12.7mm bit: substitute a 20mm bit and you’ll need a different guide bush. Or a different jig. 🤷♂️
Hey Peter, good video comparison as usual. The interesting bit for me was the Trend jig. As we have had a conversation before before, I found that a 20mm bit cut a hole which was bigger than 20mm as you get a fraction of a wobble when you plunge down. Had the 20mm precision ground, for a fiver, to 19.85mm cuts a great dog hole now. For my guide I am using Bosches version of the LR32.
Another key point, which I found out the hard way, is use decent MDF. MR definitely as the smallest changes in the air humidity means dogs get stuck when the MDF swells just a fraction 🙈
Cheers Doug! That's a good price for a small but precise grind like that! 👌
@@10MinuteWorkshop agreed Peter, I did buy the 20mm bit from the company and they priced it as a resharpening
Interesting video. I wonder how the costs of these jigs compare to getting a cnc shop to prepare a top for you?
Here in the UK all the jigs are more expensive than an off the shelf MFT top - the tops are a commodity item here - and yes, I’ve made that point in every other MFT video I’ve done. I know that’s not the case elsewhere though, so especially if you want a different size, material, or hole layout, then these jigs start to make sense. 👍
With those hip movements you should be on strictly come dancing 🤣.
Thanks for the review, very helpful.
Haha! Pretty sure I’d be out in the first round Dafydd! 😂
Clamp two sheets together and have a spare or flog it to a mate? I realy cant see me ever making more than two so the cheaper the jig the better or hire a cnc shop to make you one bespoke. A quick squirt of ptfe spray works wonders on mdf.
You can buy an MFT top more cheaply than any of these jigs. But not everyone want a standard size, or material, or hole layout. 🤷♂️ You pays your money and you makes your choice. 👍
Another good tutorial Peter. I have had a company with a CNC router make up a 77 hole table. The holes when measured with a digital Vernier are 19.6 mm. According to the company the bit on a CNC will always have some tolerance with wood. Am I being too pedantic or is this within spec. I drill a 20mm hole with a Forstner bit and it’s spot on 20mm.
Not pedantic at all Peter, that’s way off. 19.96mm and I’d say it’s in the ballpark, 19.98 and that’s pretty much spot on. Festools own MFT tops - and their own “20mm” bit for them - are actually between 20.16 - 20.2mm; I had a precision engineer pal grind the Festool bit down to make a snug fit for the BenchdogsUK benchdogs - you shouldn’t have to do that to the benchdogs to make then fit an undersized top! Out of interest can you actually fit a benchdog into it at that size? I’d be surprised if you could!
@@10MinuteWorkshop I could not get a 20mm dog to fit properly even with force. They asked that I give them a sample dog and they cut a new board for me until the sample fitted snugly. I can image that this took some time checking 77 holes but fortunately there was no additional cost as I emphasised the accuracy of the 20mm upfront. I was under the impression that CNC's were spot on but they informed me that with wood this was not guaranteed - metal on the other hand (according to them) is 100% accurate.
Does the parf guide come with the box? I asked the creator in an old vid and he advised just making my own. Just wondering if that's changed.
No, it's available as an extra. I believe it's £70 or thereabouts. 👍
Woof! Too rich for my blood! I think I'll take his advice and make my own lol
Just this week, I ordered a Parf Stick Connector at €5.95 to replace the one that I somehow lost when finishing up my first Paulk table. (I saw it bounce, but I could not find it.) Since I was ordering, I also added a 3-pack of the 3mm pins for €12. Shipping from U.K. to me here in Estonia was €21.13. Total, €39.08. So, maybe the Systainer pays for itself pretty quickly?
Come on Peter, let's see the ultimate DIY setup marking up with a rule and pencil and drilling out with a forstner bit! Maybe a a printed template at a push 😉
I pretty much did that when I made my plywood reference square, so it’s entirely doable, yes. 👍
I have the Mk1 Part Guide & it has served very well, but I can now feel a minuscule amount of wear in the rulers. The Mk2 is far superior as the drill never touches the ruler when drilling the 3mm holes. I contacted Axminster to see if an upgrade kit would be offered for Mk1 owners, which seems a reasonable proposition. Sadly they were not interested & I will, eventually, have a jig in pristine condition with worn rulers.
That’s a great shame, and thanks for raising the topic. I’ve never had my hands on a Parf 1 guide, I didn’t realise that the drilling procedure was different, though I do recall Peter Parfitt saying that the Mk2 was better engineered. I believe Axminster still sell the Mk1, so perhaps the rules are available as a spare part? If you use it enough you’ll end up with the same issue of course, but if it extends the value of your initial investment for a few more years it may be worth enquiring into? Let me know how you get on. Best, Peter
Nice about the parf system is that its easy to add off grid holes near the back edge to attach or reference the back fence giving some extra work space on the table. Extra holes are available to have 32 or 48 mm spacings.
Thanks, yes - I think I mentioned the alternative hole layouts and positions. 👍👍
Could the Trend guide be used in a left to right method?, using 8 of the 10 holes instead of only 5 in a bottom to top method?
You need the two reference dogs in holes as far apart as possible really, so while you *could* do it your way, it’s not what Trend recommend. 👍