One of my favorite movie "ah-ha" moments is the masquerade ball, realizing Bruce and Selina are the only ones not wearing traditional masks because Batman and Catwoman are their true selves.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I wonder... They both end up unmasking at the climax. Burtons Batman is about duality, where neither side is the only true side. Recall the date with Selina: "there are two truths." Recall the Siousie song at the masked ball: "follow your heart....but how can you, when it's split in two?"
Yeah, the 5 falcons plot, could be a main plot, with introductions of 5 alter-villains. (who are rich enough to be powerful....in a bad way.) 🤔 maybe falcon four belonging to the joker?
I loved Batman Returns as a kid. I remember watching it over and over again, being obsessed with Michelle Pfeifer as Catwoman. I always wanted a 3rd movie with Catwoman coming back. I didn't even realize the movie wasn't as well-loved as the original. I guess I was just too young to pick up on it.
I'm still obsessed with Batman Returns to this day at 32 years old. I wore out the vhs tape of this movie that's how much i watched it as a kid in the 90s. People back then were too sensitive because i personally think Batman Returns is still better then even Batman 89
Although she wasn't supposed to appear in Batman Forever, Tim Burton was trying to work on a solo Catwoman movie, and unlike his Batman 3, there was actually a real script, and you can find it online by Daniel Waters. His plot was about Catwoman moving away from Gotham and into a Las Vegas-esque city that's dominated by male superheroes. Selina works at a casino and has no memories of being Catwoman or being with Bruce. (She doesn't even remember the bullets in her from Max.) Eventually, a mysterious woman who watches her makes her remember and it's revealed her mother also has cat powers and was keeping it a secret to her daughter. We then learn the male superheros are actually villains, and Catwoman has to prove to the villains that a female hero will forever be superior to the male ones. And at the end, every female civilian watch over Gotham with their own homemade costumes, watching over the streets for perverted men. (Basically, it was a feminist story.) And Tim Burton HATED it. Despite that though, the script was also written in July 1995, the same day when Batman Forever came out, and because that film was made for kids and made more money than the last film, the hyper violent and dark feminist satire Catwoman movie was never gonna happen. Burton even suggested a Catwoman movie that was low budget, shot in black and white and was a jewel heist movie. So Burton and Waters clearly had creative differences on the project and they split once Burton got attached to Superman Lives in 1996/1997.
@@Guitarmachine115 Yeah I think it comes down to balance. If it's too accurate what's the point but if it's too different it may as well be a different idea all together. The burton films really strike that balance of being unique while still being recognizable as batman.
@@peterriverajr6899 well at the time of the film's release Batman had already established the no killing rule in the comics and he wipes out several people in the film. On top of that Catwoman isn't accurate to the comics either she didn't go through a cat Resurrection process and wasn't unhinged like she is in the film. Also the max shreck character isn't in the comics at all he's just a creation from the movie. Not to mention Commissioner Gordon who while played decently by Pat Hingle is a very hands-off version of the character that isn't similar to his comic book counterpart at all.
@@bigkmoviesandgames unpopular opinion, I liked Forever better than Returns. Returns was too much “Tim Burton.” It was literally a repeat of Edward Scissorhands with the Penguin. Forever actually gave us more screen time with Batman/Bruce Wayne
And that's where I come in; as one of the few Batman fans, who truly loved this film from the start. I couldn't get enough of this movie, and like the previous film, could quote the entire film from beginning to end.
I am loving this alternative version. It's truly connected to the first film, but would probably work best as a limited series as it's really dense in story and characters.
Wow. That was a huge treat! Thanks for exploring that script. I've never heard of it. I love these "alternate realities." One summer I printed out and read the original back to the future script while on vacation with no TV or internet. It made me actually appreciate the thought process and even the final film more.
Actually parts of this version of the story did show up for the comic "Batman '89 " except Penguin was replaced with Harvey Dent/ Two Face but lots of elements from that script was put into that comic such as black Robin acting as his own vigilante, alternative Catwoman,people of underprivileged neighborhood being attacked upon, among other things. Seek that one out if you can it's worth a read.
Wow! That would have been a crazy movie. I remember people were upset at the tone of Batman Returns as it was. I imagine they would have absolutely flipped their lids if this version had come out instead.
I think it’s incredible that RUclipsrs can now us AI image generators to better showcase what they are talking about. Minty is the first person I’ve really seen do it at a high level. Well done mate!
@@jameshill3403 that’s the point. It’s as if an artist drew concept art for the movie. They’re going to be somewhat generic drawings if there hasn’t been actors cast yet. Same with these images. They capture the gist of the look they might be going for. They’re not supposed to be 100% accurate or realistic.
I remembered seeing this as a kid and I enjoyed this for what it was. I also enjoyed hearing Channel Awesome's fanscription version of this and to be far the Batman 89 comic did try to continue the Batman returns story.
I’ve always loved Batman Returns, ever since I saw it in the cinema. This was a great video Minty - loved the editing and graphics portraying the script - great work
I’ve worked in the practical special effects industry for many years now and have been watching/listening to your videos all day while I work and absolutely love them. Ive been a subscriber for a while and I’m so glad you keep doing these videos. They remind me why I do what I do. Anyway, I grew up with this movie and it’s still my favorite super hero movie of all time. Keep it up👏
The movie came out in the summer of '92. How is it a Christmas movie? Yes, it's set at Christmastime but that don't make it a Christmas movie. By any means.
I don't think this script would have worked as a two hour movie. I think you're right that there were too many characters and too many elements. However, now that more streaming series are being created for longer more in depth story lines, I bet this work would great as a 6 or 8 episode series where a streaming service could really fill out the story.
The five ravens family thing is certainly interesting since it closely resembles a the Court of Owls that would later show up in the comics. That storyline took things into an even deeper and more conspired plot but still had everything else with raven thing would have save the the treasure. I'm honestly a bit conflicted. I get that the Owl choice was based on a natural predator of a bat, is more symbolic of wisdom/graceful power for the rick socialites and allowed for thier hitman to be called Talon but I still like the raven a lot too. A group of tricky manipulators in the shadows, with eyes always on a shiny prize for themselves would be fitting with a raven motif and I feel the animal can be just as or even more imposing than an owl if done right. The dark feathers, beady eyes and long beak come off more imposing and sinister than an owl even if they are the more physically equipped for brutality. Perhaps an elsewlrds instead then..a comic where the bat family and court of owls are one in the same and based on ravens. THAT would honestly be kind of cool in my opinion. The court controls Gothem but a part of this instituted by the Wayne family is to reduce crime but through more brutal means and white-collar manipulation than Bruce would allow in the Earth 1 universe.
Loved both Burton films. This alternate version does look interesting. I understand Tim changing it to fit his style. Twas a pleasure working on this one too.
I love "Batman Returns". The first Time Burton "Batman" offering was awesome, and that much is absolutely undeniable, but just in terms of the soundtrack, it was really funky with all of that Prince. Thank God for Danny Elfman. Also, don't get me wrong; Prince was a legend and I love his music. I just felt that the selection of Siouxsie and the Banshees as a sort of theme for "Batman Returns" added to the Gothic nature of Batman as he came to be depicted in all the coolest Batman films. Danny DeVito is... well, he's Danny DeVito, isn't he? A better penguin couldn't have been brought to life by anyone else and in that suit with that makeup, he was just oozing creepiness and cruel intentions while DeVito still managed to bring a real sense of pathos to the character. And yes, I get the violence thing. That whole, "..Things could be worse. I could be gushing blood from my nose," bit was a bit of something, wasn't it? And Catwoman - Michelle Pfeiffer? Meow indeed! (BOOM!) I suppose a lot of hard-core Batfans could take exception to the number of villains Batman somewhat inadvertently murdered (I remember a chap who got set alight by the Batmobile's rear rocket,) and I think the lore has always been pretty strict about the Bat's unwillingness to kill. Still, it was sick. Tim Burton was young and bursting with balls and ideas as big as them and if by some twist of fate, he hadn't gotten the directing gig for those first two "Batman" films, we might still be watching Batman and Robin boogying down with their adversaries at the drop of a jukebox needle against a neon backdrop and Jiminy Cricket, Minty, that would be intolerable! I wonder what ever might've happened to that "Beetlejuice" sequel people were making so much noise about about a year or two ago.
The comic run of Legends of the Dark Knight vol. 1 #21-23 has a storyline called, "Faith," that features a similar group of Gotham's youth using Batman as inspiration to become a vigilante gang. There was a crossover run ( among the different Bat-related books of the time ) called, "Night of the Owls," in Batman vol. 2 #8-9 that has some similarity with the Raven story Minty mentioned.
I love Batman Returns, and I also loved this video! I'd be really interested to see more videos of you talking about what-could-have-been movies, such as Nottingham, the original script for Gladiator 2, discarded Superman movies, Danny Boyle's James Bond movie, etc.
Thank you for this, Minty! Big Catwoman fan. I prefer Catwoman’s storyline in Batman Returns. Yes the motive of her working with Oswald is much clearer in Batman 2 but the transformation from a push over to the final push given her transcendence into a supernatural psychotic strength was iconic. She also is not pure evil like Batman 2 was describing her. Catwoman is duality, so I’m glad they didn’t present her like that or I doubt many of us millennials would hold her character is such high regard today.
I really like the raven statue storyline and don't find it confusing at all. And it's a nice tie in to the first movie. I'm assuming Carl Grissom would've been revealed to be a decendant of one of the five families
As someone who lived through the release of Batman Returns I loved it as a kid. Even had these Batman sheets that had “schematics” for the Batmobile… they were the coolest.
Cat Women’s bite paralyzing him was actually kinda cool because a real house cat’s bite can sometimes unalive other animals. Even if that bite itself wasn’t fatal, cats can have all kinds of toxic cooties. So that’s kinda accurate in a way. Cats often leave their prey stunned and they later pass from the bites.
Meh. Cats tend to stalk and K!LL their pray, INSTANTLY. They are very efficient k!llers. SO much so... that certain Birds, and other wild creatures have been nearly or completely wiped out, in certain areas... where lots of cats are present. When you see cats attack each other... even when its "Play", you will see that they Bite the throat / neck, as well as use their rear claws to try to Tear open the other cats under-belly (guts). They are intelligent, and know what weak / soft-targets are, and their Lethal attacks, are based on that. They also know Humility... which is why, even when the are angered in "Play", they almost always refrain from going "too-far". That said, there are many cats that have been destroyed, or seriously wounded, from severe street-fights, with other cats. IMO, cats that have been infected, probably dont live that long.. and probably are not that good at fighting, as a result. I could be mistaken... but it really depends on the type of Illness, and to what degree that it has progressed. Of course, domestic House cats are also not an example that should be compared against a "Cat Woman". One should think more in line with a larger "Feline" such as a Panther, Cheetah, Lion.. etc. As house cats rarely tend to try to fight with much larger and stronger beasts... and even in trying, only tend to generate minimal / non-lethal damages.
I know we’re in a different Batman universe but wouldn’t mind seeing this particular script revived. I think audiences today can handle its strong themes.
I definitely think this version of Batman Returns would have been interesting to see, with a few minor changes, it could have been even better than the first movie. I think they could have used the ravens story line to be the center plot of the movie. I also believe this darker and more phycological based plot could have been a good way to introduce Solomon Grundy who was in possession of one of the ravens in his sewer dwelling. Silas Gold, who is Solomon Grundy, could have been one of the original heads of the five families that fleeced Gotham. Being murdered and dumped into Slaughter swamp, in the outskirts of Gotham, comes back as Solomon Grundy to wreak havoc on the populace. Which puts him in direct conflict with not only Batman but Catwoman and Penguin as well. Great Video.
The frame-up subplot is actually a major part of Batman Returns, and takes up a significant portion of the film. The problem is that it isn't properly resolved and basically comes to nothing, which is a shame (although I have some thoughts on that and believe that Batman was still a fugitive by the end of the film, and that the Batsignal we see at the end, was calling him in for questioning).
I've always thought that had Burton not returned, this script would have had the story they went with. Imagine how daunting it must have been to develop the second Batman movie after the original was so self-contained. I think it's an interesting read, and I am surprised Hamm didn't incorporate elements of it into the Batman '89 comic.
I'm seeing a lot of criticisims of the AI art. Personally, I like a lot of the choices you made for the AI art (particularly the look of some of the wealthy businessmen characters, and Robin's look).
Sounds better than half they’ve actually made over the years.. Never heard of any of this before. It sounds decent. Seeing more Michelle Pfeiffer as CatWomen being depicted as described would certainly have been exciting. I was about 11 years old when this Movie showed up. It’s still my favorite along with 89. Burton’s Gotham is still the best. The best balance of fantasy city made to be real and walked with in. Over the Top characters who are still believable in their motivations. Iconically Legendary.. Who can forget the Parade at the end of the first Movie.? The Parade that ends with the Joker pulling out the overly large hand cannon to take out the Batwing.? To have the next Movie encompass the likes of Devito, Pfeiffer, and Walken. After just watching Nicholson play the Joker.. Batman’s franchise may never see better days for People playing these roles. Carrey as Nigma and Thurman as Ivy… Also did very well in their earlier films. I get the Kilmer & Clooney Movies mixed up a lot.. I didn’t have a problem with the performance of the actors playing Batman in these Movies. More how the directors made it more like the version from what is it the 60’s or earlier I think. I still like the one with Enigma and how he was using T.V.’s to mess with everyone. These were good Batman stories.. With him dealing with over the top situations that threaten the whole city… Anymore the stories seem more personal to Batman.., with him just dealing with the Army of bad guys of which he’s dealing with.. Or someone they’ve found to be personal to him.. I believe the writers have gotten away from using the City itself as a character… Which in my opinion should be considered to be a more valuable asset to a story teller of Batman’s World. My opinion. As I wrote., these two Movies made an impact upon me at an age where long lasting impacts are made. To learn anything significantly new about them at this stage is rare and usually enjoyable. A few laughs, smiles, and WT…. F’s.? Like Marlon Wayne’s playing Robin.? 🤔 🤦. Yeah., I don’t know about that one. Not saying I dislike the guy for any specific reason.. I just don’t think he fits that role. 👍✌️. Thanks for sharing Minty.
Agreed, 1989 will always be the best Batman movie… but I didn’t care for Returns. It was literally a repeat of Edward Scissorhands with the Penguin… too much Tim Burton, not enough Batman
@@nsasupporter7557 I'll definitely agree with the "too much tim Burton" aspect. It definitely felt like Edward scissor hands or nightmare before Christmas. But I guess I just have too much love for Michael Keaton as Batman haha
Thank you so much for this video Minty. Batman Returns is my favourite Batman movie so it was nice to hear about this other version we almost had. Keep up the good work mate. 👍
I agree that this concept would work better as a standalone graphic novel. Maybe even an animated film. Ultimately, I'm glad Tim Burton gave us the Batman Returns we know today.
Could be updated and be owls instead if Ravens..begin a good Court of Owls storyline. I also have to say I did enjoy the underlying aspect of the psyche in the Batman Returns we got with each persona having a physical form. Penguin being the scared neglected orphan, Catwoman being the alter ego, outside the law vigilante, and Bruce being the man reconciling the parts of him that make up who he is. Which is his true self the man, the orphan, or the bat? It never really got to be explored, but it IS in there. Even Max is a part of it as the face Bruce has to show the public. A shrewd businessman. There is a whole thing about this out in some rabbit hole.
To me Batman 89 was the best Batman ever. As a kid I remember going to see Batman Returns and thinking "what the hell was that". Even today I love 89 but not too impressed with Returns. I think WB gave too much creative control over to Burton and what we got was a mess. Thank goodness we have 89 and The Animated Series 👍
There's The Batman 89 comic aka Batman 3 comic that picked up what was left of with Batman Returns ignoring the events of Batman Forever and Batman and Robin.
I heard the original treatment was supposed to have Billy Dee Williams play Two Face, with the Joker even making an appearance in a full body cast at a courtroom appearance, causing the explosion that caused Harvey’s scarring
WOW… That was REALLY cool. I’ve noticed that a lot of the original ideas actually made it in to future Batman films. So in a sense, we did actually get to see some of these ideas on the mainstream live action Batman films!! I absolutely LOVE watching videos on “What Could Have Been”.
I saw in theaters when released. I'm 41. I was 10 years old at the time. I went alone. I hadn't really any friends at the time. I remember the day vividly. On the way back, I ran into a classmate. Not a friend. I told him I had just watched Batman Returns. He didn't believe me. I hated that kid.
Sounds like this version would have a more dark and serious tone like the first film which is something I would have prefered in the sequel. The story seems intresting and I like the idea of a more violent Catwoman.
Michelle's Catwoman in the beginning was innocent , sweet , a push over , nervous and after Max threw her out the window she was reborn and was tormented , vengeful , and was all about self preservation didn't feel she deserved a happy ending. A very complexed character . This was not a boring Catwoman.
Burton wanted to cast Marlon Brando as the Penguin, but Warner Bros. preferred Dustin Hoffman, Christopher Lloyd and Robert De Niro were also considered, but Danny DeVito become the frontrunner when Waters re-envisioned the character as a deformed human-bird hybrid. DeVito was initially reluctant to accept the role until he was convinced by his close friend, Jack Nic, who played the Joker in Batman.
You said it. Danny DeVito also friends with Arnold Schwarzenegger, who played Mr. Freeze in Batman & Robin. Danny friends with both Jack and Arnold, and he loved working with them, besides Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner.
The AI generated pics were cool...they added images to where there are none available and worked great. I think this original/alternative story would have been fascinating if Burton could get away from his penchant for the faerie take style...it could have been absolutely dark and crazy.
Enjoyed this video and all this info I had no idea about. I’m glad none of that other stuff was in the movie. I still love Batman Returns and think it turned out perfect.
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One of my favorite movie "ah-ha" moments is the masquerade ball, realizing Bruce and Selina are the only ones not wearing traditional masks because Batman and Catwoman are their true selves.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I wonder... They both end up unmasking at the climax. Burtons Batman is about duality, where neither side is the only true side. Recall the date with Selina: "there are two truths." Recall the Siousie song at the masked ball: "follow your heart....but how can you, when it's split in two?"
Yeah, the 5 falcons plot, could be a main plot, with introductions of 5 alter-villains. (who are rich enough to be powerful....in a bad way.)
🤔 maybe falcon four belonging to the joker?
Tim Burton had discussed that very sentiment in many interviews, and even on the DVD commentary. Not a new revelation.
He never said it was,that “aha” moment could have happened in 1992. You could’ve just said yeah you’re right
And The Dark Knight Rises rips off this moment
Michelle Pfeiffer is the best Catwoman in my opinion!
Well yeah shes never had any Competition
@@leejones3061 and also because she's great!
Damn straight
@@Createordie13 yassss :D
@The Doctor agreed! She deserves an oscer for that performance!
I loved Batman Returns as a kid. I remember watching it over and over again, being obsessed with Michelle Pfeifer as Catwoman. I always wanted a 3rd movie with Catwoman coming back. I didn't even realize the movie wasn't as well-loved as the original. I guess I was just too young to pick up on it.
I'm still obsessed with Batman Returns to this day at 32 years old. I wore out the vhs tape of this movie that's how much i watched it as a kid in the 90s. People back then were too sensitive because i personally think Batman Returns is still better then even Batman 89
Who wasn't obsessed with Michelle Pfeifer as catwoman
You didn't realise, because he was talking absolute bullshit.
Although she wasn't supposed to appear in Batman Forever, Tim Burton was trying to work on a solo Catwoman movie, and unlike his Batman 3, there was actually a real script, and you can find it online by Daniel Waters. His plot was about Catwoman moving away from Gotham and into a Las Vegas-esque city that's dominated by male superheroes. Selina works at a casino and has no memories of being Catwoman or being with Bruce. (She doesn't even remember the bullets in her from Max.) Eventually, a mysterious woman who watches her makes her remember and it's revealed her mother also has cat powers and was keeping it a secret to her daughter. We then learn the male superheros are actually villains, and Catwoman has to prove to the villains that a female hero will forever be superior to the male ones. And at the end, every female civilian watch over Gotham with their own homemade costumes, watching over the streets for perverted men. (Basically, it was a feminist story.) And Tim Burton HATED it. Despite that though, the script was also written in July 1995, the same day when Batman Forever came out, and because that film was made for kids and made more money than the last film, the hyper violent and dark feminist satire Catwoman movie was never gonna happen. Burton even suggested a Catwoman movie that was low budget, shot in black and white and was a jewel heist movie. So Burton and Waters clearly had creative differences on the project and they split once Burton got attached to Superman Lives in 1996/1997.
Only idiots n sensktivr people didnt like it
This and the first burton film are my favorite Batman movies. They're not the most comic accurate but they are really unique and very entertaining.
Thank you I agree it doesn’t have to be accurate cause if it was might as well have read the comics
@@Guitarmachine115
Yeah I think it comes down to balance. If it's too accurate what's the point but if it's too different it may as well be a different idea all together. The burton films really strike that balance of being unique while still being recognizable as batman.
Other than the penguin what about it isnt comic book accurate
@@peterriverajr6899 well at the time of the film's release Batman had already established the no killing rule in the comics and he wipes out several people in the film. On top of that Catwoman isn't accurate to the comics either she didn't go through a cat Resurrection process and wasn't unhinged like she is in the film. Also the max shreck character isn't in the comics at all he's just a creation from the movie. Not to mention Commissioner Gordon who while played decently by Pat Hingle is a very hands-off version of the character that isn't similar to his comic book counterpart at all.
@@bigkmoviesandgames unpopular opinion, I liked Forever better than Returns.
Returns was too much “Tim Burton.” It was literally a repeat of Edward Scissorhands with the Penguin.
Forever actually gave us more screen time with Batman/Bruce Wayne
Michael Keaton is my favorite Batman alongside Kevin Conroy.
same
Same here
RIP
Adam West Michael Keaton Kevin Conroy are the only true Batmen
@@deanhoffman9741 Adam West wasn’t the original Batman actor technically, did you know that?
It was Lewis Wilson from 1943
My favourite Batman movie. Love the look of Gotham and Elfman's score.
Disagree… the first one from 1989 will always be the best Batman movie
@@nsasupporter7557 he said it was HIS favorite Batman movie. There’s nothing to disagree with.
@@nsasupporter7557
That's literally just your opinion.
@@MayTheSchwartzBeWithYou and guess what… everything you think is just your MEANINGLESS opinion too!
@@nsasupporter7557 Yes, and I recognize my opinion for what it is-unlike you.
Not to diminish Nicholson's Joker, this has been and always will be my favorite Batman movie.
genuinely curious. what is it about Returns that trumps the original for you ??
Me too!
This was a movie that I watched a lot as a kid. This penguin can't be topped.
And that's where I come in; as one of the few Batman fans, who truly loved this film from the start. I couldn't get enough of this movie, and like the previous film, could quote the entire film from beginning to end.
Few? Everybody loves Batman Returns, especially after the sequels came out lol
This is a great twist to your usual format! I'd love to see more top 10 lists about alt versions of movies.
I am loving this alternative version. It's truly connected to the first film, but would probably work best as a limited series as it's really dense in story and characters.
I love these looks at alternate versions. Really makes u wonder what could have been . I hope u can find more of these
One of my favorite movies and SNES game back in the day. So great, thanks Minty.
Dude, I loved the SNES game!
@@scudman51 that game was a bit difficult
This version sounds so awesome. I would have loved to have had this version
I agree, this would have been more dramatic and immersive in story. AS a story, it is more in line with the prequel.
If the multiverse really does exist, this version was definitely made.🦇
Wow. That was a huge treat! Thanks for exploring that script. I've never heard of it. I love these "alternate realities." One summer I printed out and read the original back to the future script while on vacation with no TV or internet. It made me actually appreciate the thought process and even the final film more.
Actually parts of this version of the story did show up for the comic "Batman '89 " except Penguin was replaced with Harvey Dent/ Two Face but lots of elements from that script was put into that comic such as black Robin acting as his own vigilante, alternative Catwoman,people of underprivileged neighborhood being attacked upon, among other things. Seek that one out if you can it's worth a read.
Agreed. I have the whole 6 issue series, and it's Actually pretty good. Sam Hamm wrote the entire story.
Wow! That would have been a crazy movie. I remember people were upset at the tone of Batman Returns as it was. I imagine they would have absolutely flipped their lids if this version had come out instead.
Batman returns, the best Christmas movie 🙂
lesse, it's not Christmas until Selina Kyle is thrown out a window of the Shreck building! :)
I think it’s incredible that RUclipsrs can now us AI image generators to better showcase what they are talking about. Minty is the first person I’ve really seen do it at a high level. Well done mate!
I don't like any of it tbh
It was a great way to get across the story for sure!
It’s like concept art that never actually existed.
The AI images just looked like generic stock pictures to me
@@jameshill3403 that’s the point. It’s as if an artist drew concept art for the movie. They’re going to be somewhat generic drawings if there hasn’t been actors cast yet. Same with these images. They capture the gist of the look they might be going for. They’re not supposed to be 100% accurate or realistic.
I remembered seeing this as a kid and I enjoyed this for what it was. I also enjoyed hearing Channel Awesome's fanscription version of this and to be far the Batman 89 comic did try to continue the Batman returns story.
I’ve always loved Batman Returns, ever since I saw it in the cinema. This was a great video Minty - loved the editing and graphics portraying the script - great work
I’ve worked in the practical special effects industry for many years now and have been watching/listening to your videos all day while I work and absolutely love them. Ive been a subscriber for a while and I’m so glad you keep doing these videos. They remind me why I do what I do. Anyway, I grew up with this movie and it’s still my favorite super hero movie of all time. Keep it up👏
Michelle Pfeiffer ROCKED this movie !!
She was the movie !!
What a Doll !! ❤
Fun fact: she almost suffocated in the Catwoman suit
Without a doubt, my two favorite Batman movies! I've learned so much more about them thanks to you Minty. Hope you're doing well sir. 🦇
I love Batman returns great video Minty 🆒🆒👍👍
What I love about Tim Burton's Batman is Gotham city. It was unique.
One of my favorite Christmas movies.
I always say this as well!
The movie came out in the summer of '92. How is it a Christmas movie? Yes, it's set at Christmastime but that don't make it a Christmas movie. By any means.
Nope there's a huge tree lighting ceremony, twice. There's Xmas activities happening during the movies timeline
I don't think this script would have worked as a two hour movie. I think you're right that there were too many characters and too many elements. However, now that more streaming series are being created for longer more in depth story lines, I bet this work would great as a 6 or 8 episode series where a streaming service could really fill out the story.
Always loved this batman cause it was set during the winter.
I absolutely loved Batman Returns
Up there with the best of Christmas movies 🤶
Thought it was a masterpiece at 12 in 1992 and I still do today !
The five ravens family thing is certainly interesting since it closely resembles a the Court of Owls that would later show up in the comics. That storyline took things into an even deeper and more conspired plot but still had everything else with raven thing would have save the the treasure. I'm honestly a bit conflicted. I get that the Owl choice was based on a natural predator of a bat, is more symbolic of wisdom/graceful power for the rick socialites and allowed for thier hitman to be called Talon but I still like the raven a lot too. A group of tricky manipulators in the shadows, with eyes always on a shiny prize for themselves would be fitting with a raven motif and I feel the animal can be just as or even more imposing than an owl if done right. The dark feathers, beady eyes and long beak come off more imposing and sinister than an owl even if they are the more physically equipped for brutality. Perhaps an elsewlrds instead then..a comic where the bat family and court of owls are one in the same and based on ravens. THAT would honestly be kind of cool in my opinion. The court controls Gothem but a part of this instituted by the Wayne family is to reduce crime but through more brutal means and white-collar manipulation than Bruce would allow in the Earth 1 universe.
I’m glad you pointed that out because I was thinking the ravens sounded like a boring McGuffin.
That plot was worked into the Gotham TV series, wasn't it? I knew that sounded familiar.
I find this version of Batman 2 facinating. It would be interesting to see how a 'Rated R' Batman film like this would turn out.
Would love to see this version!
Loved both Burton films. This alternate version does look interesting. I understand Tim changing it to fit his style. Twas a pleasure working on this one too.
Had some good points, but I'm glad we got what we got
Best Batman film Ever, I LOVE it since I was a child.
¡Saludos from México!
I love "Batman Returns". The first Time Burton "Batman" offering was awesome, and that much is absolutely undeniable, but just in terms of the soundtrack, it was really funky with all of that Prince. Thank God for Danny Elfman. Also, don't get me wrong; Prince was a legend and I love his music. I just felt that the selection of Siouxsie and the Banshees as a sort of theme for "Batman Returns" added to the Gothic nature of Batman as he came to be depicted in all the coolest Batman films. Danny DeVito is... well, he's Danny DeVito, isn't he? A better penguin couldn't have been brought to life by anyone else and in that suit with that makeup, he was just oozing creepiness and cruel intentions while DeVito still managed to bring a real sense of pathos to the character. And yes, I get the violence thing. That whole, "..Things could be worse. I could be gushing blood from my nose," bit was a bit of something, wasn't it? And Catwoman - Michelle Pfeiffer? Meow indeed! (BOOM!) I suppose a lot of hard-core Batfans could take exception to the number of villains Batman somewhat inadvertently murdered (I remember a chap who got set alight by the Batmobile's rear rocket,) and I think the lore has always been pretty strict about the Bat's unwillingness to kill. Still, it was sick. Tim Burton was young and bursting with balls and ideas as big as them and if by some twist of fate, he hadn't gotten the directing gig for those first two "Batman" films, we might still be watching Batman and Robin boogying down with their adversaries at the drop of a jukebox needle against a neon backdrop and Jiminy Cricket, Minty, that would be intolerable!
I wonder what ever might've happened to that "Beetlejuice" sequel people were making so much noise about about a year or two ago.
I always loved it. I remember watching it in the theatre. I still have the mugs from the movie and the cup they gave away at the theatre.
The comic run of Legends of the Dark Knight vol. 1 #21-23 has a storyline called, "Faith," that features a similar group of Gotham's youth using Batman as inspiration to become a vigilante gang. There was a crossover run ( among the different Bat-related books of the time ) called, "Night of the Owls," in Batman vol. 2 #8-9 that has some similarity with the Raven story Minty mentioned.
I loved this movie as a kid, its probably still my favourite batman movie.
Great one, Minty!
But yeah, I can see several reasons why this storyline was ultimately rejected.
I love Batman Returns, and I also loved this video! I'd be really interested to see more videos of you talking about what-could-have-been movies, such as Nottingham, the original script for Gladiator 2, discarded Superman movies, Danny Boyle's James Bond movie, etc.
Batman Returns has always been my favorite.
THEY HATE YOU! NOLAN FANS WON'T LIKE THIS! FAIL!
Thank you for this, Minty! Big Catwoman fan. I prefer Catwoman’s storyline in Batman Returns. Yes the motive of her working with Oswald is much clearer in Batman 2 but the transformation from a push over to the final push given her transcendence into a supernatural psychotic strength was iconic. She also is not pure evil like Batman 2 was describing her. Catwoman is duality, so I’m glad they didn’t present her like that or I doubt many of us millennials would hold her character is such high regard today.
insane level quality for this ep Minty
Great video, Minty! Love this script and you did a great job setting the scenes!
And the laughing mask at the end was a great addition.
I really like the raven statue storyline and don't find it confusing at all. And it's a nice tie in to the first movie. I'm assuming Carl Grissom would've been revealed to be a decendant of one of the five families
As someone who lived through the release of Batman Returns I loved it as a kid. Even had these Batman sheets that had “schematics” for the Batmobile… they were the coolest.
Cat Women’s bite paralyzing him was actually kinda cool because a real house cat’s bite can sometimes unalive other animals. Even if that bite itself wasn’t fatal, cats can have all kinds of toxic cooties. So that’s kinda accurate in a way. Cats often leave their prey stunned and they later pass from the bites.
I was bit by a cat once that I was trying to get into a pet carrier. My hand was swollen & hurt for days. Actually well over a week best I remember
Meh. Cats tend to stalk and K!LL their pray, INSTANTLY. They are very efficient k!llers. SO much so... that certain Birds, and other wild creatures have been nearly or completely wiped out, in certain areas... where lots of cats are present.
When you see cats attack each other... even when its "Play", you will see that they Bite the throat / neck, as well as use their rear claws to try to Tear open the other cats under-belly (guts). They are intelligent, and know what weak / soft-targets are, and their Lethal attacks, are based on that. They also know Humility... which is why, even when the are angered in "Play", they almost always refrain from going "too-far". That said, there are many cats that have been destroyed, or seriously wounded, from severe street-fights, with other cats.
IMO, cats that have been infected, probably dont live that long.. and probably are not that good at fighting, as a result. I could be mistaken... but it really depends on the type of Illness, and to what degree that it has progressed.
Of course, domestic House cats are also not an example that should be compared against a "Cat Woman". One should think more in line with a larger "Feline" such as a Panther, Cheetah, Lion.. etc. As house cats rarely tend to try to fight with much larger and stronger beasts... and even in trying, only tend to generate minimal / non-lethal damages.
This Catwoman is even crazier than what we got in the movie.
And the ravens are like the Court of Owls.
Interesting first draft good that they want a different way
One of my favourite Sequels/Batman Movies/Superhero Movies/Christmas Movies 👌
I know we’re in a different Batman universe but wouldn’t mind seeing this particular script revived. I think audiences today can handle its strong themes.
I definitely think this version of Batman Returns would have been interesting to see, with a few minor changes, it could have been even better than the first movie. I think they could have used the ravens story line to be the center plot of the movie. I also believe this darker and more phycological based plot could have been a good way to introduce Solomon Grundy who was in possession of one of the ravens in his sewer dwelling. Silas Gold, who is Solomon Grundy, could have been one of the original heads of the five families that fleeced Gotham. Being murdered and dumped into Slaughter swamp, in the outskirts of Gotham, comes back as Solomon Grundy to wreak havoc on the populace. Which puts him in direct conflict with not only Batman but Catwoman and Penguin as well. Great Video.
The frame-up subplot is actually a major part of Batman Returns, and takes up a significant portion of the film. The problem is that it isn't properly resolved and basically comes to nothing, which is a shame (although I have some thoughts on that and believe that Batman was still a fugitive by the end of the film, and that the Batsignal we see at the end, was calling him in for questioning).
I've always thought that had Burton not returned, this script would have had the story they went with. Imagine how daunting it must have been to develop the second Batman movie after the original was so self-contained. I think it's an interesting read, and I am surprised Hamm didn't incorporate elements of it into the Batman '89 comic.
I like the Robin story. Could have been really cool.
Loved Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman. Anne Hathaway can't hold a candle to her
I am working on making an audio play based on that script
I'm seeing a lot of criticisims of the AI art. Personally, I like a lot of the choices you made for the AI art (particularly the look of some of the wealthy businessmen characters, and Robin's look).
Yeah, GraigorCreig. Me too.
I hate when they try to make the Wayne’s death part of some grand conspiracy. Better if it’s random
Best Batman movie ever
Sounds better than half they’ve actually made over the years.. Never heard of any of this before. It sounds decent. Seeing more Michelle Pfeiffer as CatWomen being depicted as described would certainly have been exciting. I was about 11 years old when this Movie showed up. It’s still my favorite along with 89. Burton’s Gotham is still the best. The best balance of fantasy city made to be real and walked with in. Over the Top characters who are still believable in their motivations. Iconically Legendary.. Who can forget the Parade at the end of the first Movie.? The Parade that ends with the Joker pulling out the overly large hand cannon to take out the Batwing.? To have the next Movie encompass the likes of Devito, Pfeiffer, and Walken. After just watching Nicholson play the Joker.. Batman’s franchise may never see better days for People playing these roles. Carrey as Nigma and Thurman as Ivy… Also did very well in their earlier films. I get the Kilmer & Clooney Movies mixed up a lot.. I didn’t have a problem with the performance of the actors playing Batman in these Movies. More how the directors made it more like the version from what is it the 60’s or earlier I think. I still like the one with Enigma and how he was using T.V.’s to mess with everyone. These were good Batman stories.. With him dealing with over the top situations that threaten the whole city… Anymore the stories seem more personal to Batman.., with him just dealing with the Army of bad guys of which he’s dealing with.. Or someone they’ve found to be personal to him.. I believe the writers have gotten away from using the City itself as a character… Which in my opinion should be considered to be a more valuable asset to a story teller of Batman’s World. My opinion. As I wrote., these two Movies made an impact upon me at an age where long lasting impacts are made. To learn anything significantly new about them at this stage is rare and usually enjoyable. A few laughs, smiles, and WT…. F’s.? Like Marlon Wayne’s playing Robin.? 🤔 🤦. Yeah., I don’t know about that one. Not saying I dislike the guy for any specific reason.. I just don’t think he fits that role. 👍✌️. Thanks for sharing Minty.
Memberberries: I loved getting the promo cups at McDonalds ;p
Wow. Those five raven statue story line was super cool. Even though this movie is perfect in my eyes, I would like to have seen that.
Always loved Batman returns. Never liked it as good as the original but still a fantastic movie.
Agreed, 1989 will always be the best Batman movie… but I didn’t care for Returns. It was literally a repeat of Edward Scissorhands with the Penguin… too much Tim Burton, not enough Batman
@@nsasupporter7557 I'll definitely agree with the "too much tim Burton" aspect. It definitely felt like Edward scissor hands or nightmare before Christmas. But I guess I just have too much love for Michael Keaton as Batman haha
@@The_Bad_Guy. agreed, he was the best Batman.
I guess the only way to have had Keaton as Batman, Burton had to be director again lol
Thank you so much for this video Minty.
Batman Returns is my favourite Batman movie so it was nice to hear about this other version we almost had.
Keep up the good work mate. 👍
I agree that this concept would work better as a standalone graphic novel. Maybe even an animated film. Ultimately, I'm glad Tim Burton gave us the Batman Returns we know today.
Could be updated and be owls instead if Ravens..begin a good Court of Owls storyline. I also have to say I did enjoy the underlying aspect of the psyche in the Batman Returns we got with each persona having a physical form. Penguin being the scared neglected orphan, Catwoman being the alter ego, outside the law vigilante, and Bruce being the man reconciling the parts of him that make up who he is. Which is his true self the man, the orphan, or the bat? It never really got to be explored, but it IS in there. Even Max is a part of it as the face Bruce has to show the public. A shrewd businessman. There is a whole thing about this out in some rabbit hole.
Please video on Batman the animated series and Batman beyond
yeah!!!
Batman Returns was always my favorite Batman movie.
To me Batman 89 was the best Batman ever. As a kid I remember going to see Batman Returns and thinking "what the hell was that". Even today I love 89 but not too impressed with Returns. I think WB gave too much creative control over to Burton and what we got was a mess. Thank goodness we have 89 and The Animated Series 👍
There's The Batman 89 comic aka Batman 3 comic that picked up what was left of with Batman Returns ignoring the events of Batman Forever and Batman and Robin.
I absolutely loved the Burton Batmans! They were my favorites as a kid. Gore and all.
1st
This is my second favorite batman film after the first one, of course. Thank you, Minty, for the facts and memories.
Most underrated Christmas Film
I agree, that does provide a more interesting backstory.
They should have made this version instead. This was a great video.
First batman i seen on the big screen. Still think its the best of them
I heard the original treatment was supposed to have Billy Dee Williams play Two Face, with the Joker even making an appearance in a full body cast at a courtroom appearance, causing the explosion that caused Harvey’s scarring
WOW… That was REALLY cool. I’ve noticed that a lot of the original ideas actually made it in to future Batman films. So in a sense, we did actually get to see some of these ideas on the mainstream live action Batman films!! I absolutely LOVE watching videos on “What Could Have Been”.
I appreciate the beautiful digital art included in this video 😊
I saw in theaters when released. I'm 41. I was 10 years old at the time. I went alone. I hadn't really any friends at the time. I remember the day vividly. On the way back, I ran into a classmate. Not a friend. I told him I had just watched Batman Returns. He didn't believe me. I hated that kid.
Me too, I'm 41 and my dad took me and me siblings to see it at the theater when it came out...
Sounds like this version would have a more dark and serious tone like the first film which is something I would have prefered in the sequel. The story seems intresting and I like the idea of a more violent Catwoman.
OOOO... I think I would have liked this version! Thanks for bringing it to us. 👍😁
Michelle's Catwoman in the beginning was innocent , sweet , a push over , nervous and after Max threw her out the window she was reborn and was tormented , vengeful , and was all about self preservation didn't feel she deserved a happy ending. A very complexed character . This was not a boring Catwoman.
*_Best channel on RUclips for me, hands down!_*
I totally loved the hello how are you, took me off guard, and made me smile!
Love the videos Minty! Just caught the 1989 Batman on TV yesterday. These are some of my favorite films of alltime.
Burton wanted to cast Marlon Brando as the Penguin, but Warner Bros. preferred Dustin Hoffman, Christopher Lloyd and Robert De Niro were also considered, but Danny DeVito become the frontrunner when Waters re-envisioned the character as a deformed human-bird hybrid. DeVito was initially reluctant to accept the role until he was convinced by his close friend, Jack Nic, who played the Joker in Batman.
You said it. Danny DeVito also friends with Arnold Schwarzenegger, who played Mr. Freeze in Batman & Robin. Danny friends with both Jack and Arnold, and he loved working with them, besides Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner.
All those early Batman movies have gotten much better through time even Batman and Robin, thanks Minty!
i love your use of stable diffusion to fill in the story visually.
this is my absolute favorite batman movie. plus its a christmas movie.
the best video youve done thanks Minty love u brothr!!
The AI generated pics were cool...they added images to where there are none available and worked great.
I think this original/alternative story would have been fascinating if Burton could get away from his penchant for the faerie take style...it could have been absolutely dark and crazy.
Enjoyed this video and all this info I had no idea about. I’m glad none of that other stuff was in the movie. I still love Batman Returns and think it turned out perfect.
Batman returns is a dark underrated classic 😈
The comic book adaptation of Batman Returns is awesome. You can see details of the unmade film in the issue.
Your reviews are awesome. They also match the emotional impact I have for Burton batman. Thank you for making what I love seem more accessible ❤