I love the name of your channel Ben! As previous commentator said, his entire game seems to be based of his serves - if you'd manage to take them he gets pushed back cause he's standing straight up and tabletennis is a lot of keeping yourself low to the ground to be prepared!. Keep at it! We will follow your journey! =)
Not much you could do but good job hanging in there! Something to study: Watch the way he accelerates his paddle on contact during serves. Even though the motion is small, there's good acceleration which translates to good spin. A lot of people get distracted by the ball toss during the serve. Keep your attention on the opponent's paddle and watch for subtle motions during contact. Is contact early and cutting down? Is it late and pulling up? Is the contact at 6 o clock (directly under the ball, pure backspin) or at 3 o clock (almost completely sidespin) or somewhere in between? There are 2 general ways to deal with sidespin: go against the spin or go with the spin With regards to serves, it's easier to return short if you go with the spin. For long returns, it's fine to use either. For example, if the serve is a regular pendulum serve, contact is on the right from your pov and looks like it's spinning clockwise from top down view. Going with the spin means brushing to the left (clockwise), similar to the concept of loop in a backspin, but sideways. To be honest, this is my preferred way of dealing with sidespin and it feels easier for me to control the position of the ball. Going against the spin in this situation is hitting on the *right* (edit: correction) side of the ball, using blade angle to mitigate the effect of the spin. This is like playing topspin vs topspin. If you block a topspin ball, it'll want to jump off your paddle, just like a pendulum serve makes the ball want to jump off your paddle to the right from your pov. Nate seems like a good player, one of the best I've seen on your channel at least in terms of service quality. To be honest, he wasn't playing to his full ability so I'm just estimating based on the quality of his serves, his footwork, the mechanics of his swing, and the way he reacts to your good attacks. That being said, I don't think his level is too much out of reach for you.
I was once told that if it's pure sidespin, topspin has the ability to cancel out the sidespin no matter what (if you loop it.) Is that correct? And yeah, I could tell he was messing with me - and he wasn't playing 100%. That's why I was like: "Okay, let's just give him something he's not expecting" - and I just went all out. I threw out all consequences.
@@BenSucksAtPingPong man... RUclips keeps deleting my comment. I guess they don't want people to know if topspin can cancel out backspin... I'll try to repost...
@@BenSucksAtPingPong I would claim that that is incorrect, at least very very very misleading in the way it's being often claimed to be a something like a magic silver bullet, "Just do this one magic topspin receive and you'll never have problems with sidespin anymore!". Basically, it sounds like pure theorycrafting, because the problem is never how to respond to any one specific spin (there's always many easy ways to counter something, if only you knew it was coming...), it's to recognize the subtle difference between pure sidespin, side-under, and side-top, and slightly adjusting racket angle accordingly, and spending the least time in limbo while deciding whether to receive forehand or backhand when someone spins the ball into your elbow. The uncomfortable truth is: To receive sidespin serves, you have to practice a helluvalot of serve receive with someone who serves sidespin, period. If something sounds too good to be true, it usually isn't true. However, the remaining question that is actually somewhat interesting basically amounts to: "What difference does it make If I strike the ball at its equator (topspin on topspin) versus at one of its poles (better: try pure sidespin on pure topspin)?" If you touch the spinning ball at the equator and your rubber has good friction (grips the ball well), the same thing will happen when a rotating car tire comes into contact with a road - it will convert angular movement of the round, rotating tire into linear momentum along the road: the ball will jump sideways = suddenly convert a lot of angular momentum into a lot of linear momentum. Which beginenrs usually fear, but becomes a non-issue over time when you learn how to recognize the spin, because then you can counter it by going against the spin to surprise your opponent with speed, with the spin to surprise your opponent by keeing it short, and all sorts of things. Just recognizing it in time and making the decision how to respond is the problem, not that it can or cannot be dealt with in theory. If you touch the ball at one of its poles, this is the same as a spinning top touching the table surface it spins on - it will KEEP it's angular momentum, and convert none of it into linear momentum = it will not suddenly jump sideways on your racket, but it will keep its spin direction and velocity. The difficulty with this for beginners is to reliably identify where the rotation axis of the incoming ball is in first place, because if you don't know the rotation axis you also don't know where the poles are, so same issue as before: In the real world recognition must come before action, and is difficult. Theorycrafting on a specific known spin is child's play. However, you will add new spin to the already existing spin (=try to move the table quickly under the already rotating spinning top), and a ball can only ever have one axis of rotation, so your rotation will get added to the existing rotation. That means if there was a lot of sidespin on the ball, and you add an equal about of topspin, the ball will leave your racket with a tilted side-topspin rotation axis, which means it will still make a curve in the air and jump sideways when contacting the opponent's side of the table. This is exactly for example is the principle of the two flicks, banana flick (touch ball left side on backspin serve, turning it into a side-topspin return) and strawberry flick (touch ball right side on backspin serve, same results but different corner/spin direction). It's way easier to return a short backspin serve with a sidespin receive than pushing it or topspinning it back, because you touch it near the poles instead of near its equator. You do not aim for the poles to "cancel" the spin, you simply return the ball to your opponent with their own spin mostly preserved instead of reflected, and prevent the ball from converting spin into linear motion when touching your racket. You still need to be able to read the spin and angle your racket precisely according to the incoming spin to hit the rotation axis somewhat precisely in first place, so there's no practical "cancelling out" any of the actual difficulty of the stroke. So this is not very helpful in any degree for beginners in my experience. It's just not worth it burdening your brain with all this info and then being too slow in a match because you can't think about all that at once. Hence, what always works well is, when in doubt, attack confidently and always aim for the center. If you always aim at the center, the ball will always be hard to receive because it hits the opponents elbow (see Nate getting struck by your wonderful ball through the center at 4:12 - every shakehands player is vulnerable to that, no matter the skill level), and it can veer a little left, a little right, no matter if caused by bad timing or bad footwork or by the opponent's sidespin, but it will never miss the table. :)
@@BenSucksAtPingPong It's not so much that topspin cancels out sidespin, rather hitting the upper part of the ball will reduce the impact of the sidespin on the ball. In the extreme, there's no sidespin at the north pole. If you'd topspin the ball by hitting the back, then the impact of the sidespin will be maximal. This is why hitting under the ball, imparting backspin, is another option. At the south pole there is minimal sidespin too. But flicking at the top has the advantage of taking the initiative. The same principle applies to the banana flick against a backspin serve. When striking the ball on its left side, the impact of the backspin is minimal (because the axis of the spin runs from left to right). Same for the "strawberry" flick, which strikes its right side. Again, it's not so much that the sidespin you impart by doing so, neutralizes the backspin. It's about the contact point.
Nate's game is based on superior serve. When he meets players who can return it he'll face the issue of standing upright, observing the game, rather than be in a ready position. Ben was visibly frustrated but the basic flick return is actually the right strategy against serves with side-topspin. I had a little fun with stats :) Ben - errors 31 Serve 1 Return 11 3rd ball 9 4th ball 6 5th ball 3 rally 1 Ben - winners 9 Return 3 3rd ball 2 (1 lucky) 4th ball 1 5th ball 2 rally 1 Nate errors 8 Serve 1 return 3 3rd ball 1 4th ball 1 5th ball 2 Nate winners 2 4th ball 1 rally 1 From the stats we can see how you got more winners in than Nate (9-2) but made way more errors (31-8). The majority of those were returns indeed but you shouldn't ignore the ones coming from not being ready for 3rd or 4th ball. His returns or 3rd balls weren't as tricky as his serves. Let's also acknowledge his 3 return errors. Your serves are not as spinny but they are good enough for the level of play. So I wouldn't say your serve is the main point to develop 1) continue developing the flick return 2) readiness for 3rd and 4th ball 3) overall footwork 4) it seems like you are backhand oriented, sometimes going for a bh on the fh side; so working on a reliable forehand? I won't always post this long pieces of obnoxious advice :) Enjoy the game!
The in-depth analysis was greatly appreciated! 1000 thank yous! It also gave me a who 'nother perspective on analysing a match. I spent a lot of time between this day and the next club match practicing serves yes, but because of this comment I paid a LOT more attention to the flick returns and even tried attacking them a lot more than usual. Yes, I did make some errors, but I was a lot more happy with my progress. I hope you take a look at the matches I'll be posting in the next little bit to take a look. (No you don't need sucha long analysis) but I think the short attacks will be at least .49380249384023% better.
The side he contacts the ball the the side you put your racket. If its on the left, you counter by putting your racket to the left. Downspin and topspin are decided by the direction of the motion. If he contacts moving his paddle downwards then its downspin, and vice versa for topspin. Try not to be aggressive, and play it safe. Ben over like you are typing on a computer when playing. It is very important to lower your center of gravity. This will always help you see your opponents serves. On topspin, drive to ball more directly, and focus on hitting the your opponent's middle or corners. You can also play soft and change the pace to mess him up.
Any stronger spin will override the spin that's on the ball. Otherwise you have to account for the spin. But really... you need to develop your own serves, yours are super weak. Serves don't need to be deceptive, just strong in their pace, spin (or no spin), and placement, so you can play the point your way on the return. The better you will be at serves - the better overall play will be as well. Also I see very poor anticipation and footwork, you are not getting to the ball/into a position.
One thing I definitely have had hammered into me is that my serve isn't to win an ace - it's to predict an outcome in my favor. It needs to be hit by my opponent to favorably play into my strength. Is it a topspin loop attack? Maybe. So a sidespin top to their forehand to go to my forehand. Since my backspin loop is my weakest shot, I shouldn't use it that much until it's developed.
@@BenSucksAtPingPong Your current strength is backhand topspin/block - that's my observation from this game. I find it technically way better than your forehand. So you want to either serve with right/clockwise spin so that the ball comes to your backhand. Or left/counterclockwise spin and you move up to the center to activate your backhand from the center. That's tactics. For technical advice, see my direct comment.
This is generally true unless it's backspin. My weakest shot a long backspin to my backhand. If you want to beat me 11-0, just make those 100% of your shots. :)
I love the name of your channel Ben!
As previous commentator said, his entire game seems to be based of his serves - if you'd manage to take them he gets pushed back cause he's standing straight up and tabletennis is a lot of keeping yourself low to the ground to be prepared!. Keep at it! We will follow your journey! =)
Thank you so much! I appreciate you being here!
Not much you could do but good job hanging in there!
Something to study:
Watch the way he accelerates his paddle on contact during serves. Even though the motion is small, there's good acceleration which translates to good spin.
A lot of people get distracted by the ball toss during the serve. Keep your attention on the opponent's paddle and watch for subtle motions during contact. Is contact early and cutting down? Is it late and pulling up? Is the contact at 6 o clock (directly under the ball, pure backspin) or at 3 o clock (almost completely sidespin) or somewhere in between?
There are 2 general ways to deal with sidespin: go against the spin or go with the spin
With regards to serves, it's easier to return short if you go with the spin. For long returns, it's fine to use either.
For example, if the serve is a regular pendulum serve, contact is on the right from your pov and looks like it's spinning clockwise from top down view. Going with the spin means brushing to the left (clockwise), similar to the concept of loop in a backspin, but sideways. To be honest, this is my preferred way of dealing with sidespin and it feels easier for me to control the position of the ball.
Going against the spin in this situation is hitting on the *right* (edit: correction) side of the ball, using blade angle to mitigate the effect of the spin. This is like playing topspin vs topspin. If you block a topspin ball, it'll want to jump off your paddle, just like a pendulum serve makes the ball want to jump off your paddle to the right from your pov.
Nate seems like a good player, one of the best I've seen on your channel at least in terms of service quality. To be honest, he wasn't playing to his full ability so I'm just estimating based on the quality of his serves, his footwork, the mechanics of his swing, and the way he reacts to your good attacks. That being said, I don't think his level is too much out of reach for you.
I was once told that if it's pure sidespin, topspin has the ability to cancel out the sidespin no matter what (if you loop it.) Is that correct?
And yeah, I could tell he was messing with me - and he wasn't playing 100%. That's why I was like: "Okay, let's just give him something he's not expecting" - and I just went all out. I threw out all consequences.
@@BenSucksAtPingPong man... RUclips keeps deleting my comment. I guess they don't want people to know if topspin can cancel out backspin... I'll try to repost...
@@BenSucksAtPingPong
I would claim that that is incorrect, at least very very very misleading in the way it's being often claimed to be a something like a magic silver bullet, "Just do this one magic topspin receive and you'll never have problems with sidespin anymore!".
Basically, it sounds like pure theorycrafting, because the problem is never how to respond to any one specific spin (there's always many easy ways to counter something, if only you knew it was coming...), it's to recognize the subtle difference between pure sidespin, side-under, and side-top, and slightly adjusting racket angle accordingly, and spending the least time in limbo while deciding whether to receive forehand or backhand when someone spins the ball into your elbow.
The uncomfortable truth is: To receive sidespin serves, you have to practice a helluvalot of serve receive with someone who serves sidespin, period.
If something sounds too good to be true, it usually isn't true.
However, the remaining question that is actually somewhat interesting basically amounts to:
"What difference does it make If I strike the ball at its equator (topspin on topspin) versus at one of its poles (better: try pure sidespin on pure topspin)?"
If you touch the spinning ball at the equator and your rubber has good friction (grips the ball well), the same thing will happen when a rotating car tire comes into contact with a road - it will convert angular movement of the round, rotating tire into linear momentum along the road: the ball will jump sideways = suddenly convert a lot of angular momentum into a lot of linear momentum. Which beginenrs usually fear, but becomes a non-issue over time when you learn how to recognize the spin, because then you can counter it by going against the spin to surprise your opponent with speed, with the spin to surprise your opponent by keeing it short, and all sorts of things. Just recognizing it in time and making the decision how to respond is the problem, not that it can or cannot be dealt with in theory.
If you touch the ball at one of its poles, this is the same as a spinning top touching the table surface it spins on - it will KEEP it's angular momentum, and convert none of it into linear momentum = it will not suddenly jump sideways on your racket, but it will keep its spin direction and velocity. The difficulty with this for beginners is to reliably identify where the rotation axis of the incoming ball is in first place, because if you don't know the rotation axis you also don't know where the poles are, so same issue as before: In the real world recognition must come before action, and is difficult. Theorycrafting on a specific known spin is child's play.
However, you will add new spin to the already existing spin (=try to move the table quickly under the already rotating spinning top), and a ball can only ever have one axis of rotation, so your rotation will get added to the existing rotation. That means if there was a lot of sidespin on the ball, and you add an equal about of topspin, the ball will leave your racket with a tilted side-topspin rotation axis, which means it will still make a curve in the air and jump sideways when contacting the opponent's side of the table.
This is exactly for example is the principle of the two flicks, banana flick (touch ball left side on backspin serve, turning it into a side-topspin return) and strawberry flick (touch ball right side on backspin serve, same results but different corner/spin direction). It's way easier to return a short backspin serve with a sidespin receive than pushing it or topspinning it back, because you touch it near the poles instead of near its equator.
You do not aim for the poles to "cancel" the spin, you simply return the ball to your opponent with their own spin mostly preserved instead of reflected, and prevent the ball from converting spin into linear motion when touching your racket. You still need to be able to read the spin and angle your racket precisely according to the incoming spin to hit the rotation axis somewhat precisely in first place, so there's no practical "cancelling out" any of the actual difficulty of the stroke.
So this is not very helpful in any degree for beginners in my experience. It's just not worth it burdening your brain with all this info and then being too slow in a match because you can't think about all that at once.
Hence, what always works well is, when in doubt, attack confidently and always aim for the center. If you always aim at the center, the ball will always be hard to receive because it hits the opponents elbow (see Nate getting struck by your wonderful ball through the center at 4:12 - every shakehands player is vulnerable to that, no matter the skill level), and it can veer a little left, a little right, no matter if caused by bad timing or bad footwork or by the opponent's sidespin, but it will never miss the table. :)
@@BenSucksAtPingPong It's not so much that topspin cancels out sidespin, rather hitting the upper part of the ball will reduce the impact of the sidespin on the ball. In the extreme, there's no sidespin at the north pole. If you'd topspin the ball by hitting the back, then the impact of the sidespin will be maximal. This is why hitting under the ball, imparting backspin, is another option. At the south pole there is minimal sidespin too. But flicking at the top has the advantage of taking the initiative.
The same principle applies to the banana flick against a backspin serve. When striking the ball on its left side, the impact of the backspin is minimal (because the axis of the spin runs from left to right). Same for the "strawberry" flick, which strikes its right side. Again, it's not so much that the sidespin you impart by doing so, neutralizes the backspin. It's about the contact point.
That makes sense! Thank you so much!
Nate's game is based on superior serve. When he meets players who can return it he'll face the issue of standing upright, observing the game, rather than be in a ready position.
Ben was visibly frustrated but the basic flick return is actually the right strategy against serves with side-topspin.
I had a little fun with stats :)
Ben - errors 31
Serve 1
Return 11
3rd ball 9
4th ball 6
5th ball 3
rally 1
Ben - winners 9
Return 3
3rd ball 2 (1 lucky)
4th ball 1
5th ball 2
rally 1
Nate errors 8
Serve 1
return 3
3rd ball 1
4th ball 1
5th ball 2
Nate winners 2
4th ball 1
rally 1
From the stats we can see how you got more winners in than Nate (9-2) but made way more errors (31-8). The majority of those were returns indeed but you shouldn't ignore the ones coming from not being ready for 3rd or 4th ball. His returns or 3rd balls weren't as tricky as his serves.
Let's also acknowledge his 3 return errors. Your serves are not as spinny but they are good enough for the level of play.
So I wouldn't say your serve is the main point to develop
1) continue developing the flick return
2) readiness for 3rd and 4th ball
3) overall footwork
4) it seems like you are backhand oriented, sometimes going for a bh on the fh side; so working on a reliable forehand?
I won't always post this long pieces of obnoxious advice :)
Enjoy the game!
The in-depth analysis was greatly appreciated! 1000 thank yous! It also gave me a who 'nother perspective on analysing a match.
I spent a lot of time between this day and the next club match practicing serves yes, but because of this comment I paid a LOT more attention to the flick returns and even tried attacking them a lot more than usual. Yes, I did make some errors, but I was a lot more happy with my progress.
I hope you take a look at the matches I'll be posting in the next little bit to take a look. (No you don't need sucha long analysis) but I think the short attacks will be at least .49380249384023% better.
The side he contacts the ball the the side you put your racket. If its on the left, you counter by putting your racket to the left. Downspin and topspin are decided by the direction of the motion. If he contacts moving his paddle downwards then its downspin, and vice versa for topspin. Try not to be aggressive, and play it safe. Ben over like you are typing on a computer when playing. It is very important to lower your center of gravity. This will always help you see your opponents serves. On topspin, drive to ball more directly, and focus on hitting the your opponent's middle or corners. You can also play soft and change the pace to mess him up.
Definitely some great points to work on! I think when I get beind my stance is definitely the first thing to go!
haha. Your channel name is the best. keep chipping away, bud. You'll eventually upgrade to "Ben'sMediocreAtPinpong"
@@scooterinmie1 thank you so much! It's definitely a journey.
Maybe some day, I can be 'BenIsNowOkayishAtPingPong'
Someday!
Any stronger spin will override the spin that's on the ball. Otherwise you have to account for the spin. But really... you need to develop your own serves, yours are super weak. Serves don't need to be deceptive, just strong in their pace, spin (or no spin), and placement, so you can play the point your way on the return. The better you will be at serves - the better overall play will be as well. Also I see very poor anticipation and footwork, you are not getting to the ball/into a position.
One thing I definitely have had hammered into me is that my serve isn't to win an ace - it's to predict an outcome in my favor.
It needs to be hit by my opponent to favorably play into my strength. Is it a topspin loop attack? Maybe. So a sidespin top to their forehand to go to my forehand.
Since my backspin loop is my weakest shot, I shouldn't use it that much until it's developed.
@@BenSucksAtPingPong Your current strength is backhand topspin/block - that's my observation from this game. I find it technically way better than your forehand. So you want to either serve with right/clockwise spin so that the ball comes to your backhand. Or left/counterclockwise spin and you move up to the center to activate your backhand from the center. That's tactics. For technical advice, see my direct comment.
This is generally true unless it's backspin. My weakest shot a long backspin to my backhand. If you want to beat me 11-0, just make those 100% of your shots. :)