Good video with good info, thanks. I raced the 351 Cleveland on dirt tracks for 11 years back in the 80's and 90's. I ran the US 4V closed, 4V open, 2V open and the Aussie 2V closed (known as a 302C in Aussie land). ALL OF THEM WORKED WELL! No complaints, however, some were better than others, NONE were bad. The 4V closed had great top end H/P, but lacked a little in bottom end torque, the 4V open did not have as much top end H/P as the 4V closed, but still ran well. the 2V open had good bottom end torque but lacked some top end H/P, The Aussie 2V-302C closed heads had good bottom end torque and good top end H/P on the dirt tracks. We won feature races with ALL four types of Cleveland heads. I don't believe FORD made a "bad" Cleveland head, It depended on your use of them in any particular type of Racing or Hot Rodding effort. We were limited to a 2V carb with no more than 500 cfm. (HOLLEY-4412). What was more important was cam selection and cam timing. I tried those exhaust plates on the 351C 4V heads and they sucked, down on power in the heat race, so we pulled them out before the main event, H/P was back, they were junk to me. I know you are talking about Drag Racing here, just thought I would share some of my 351Cleveland experience with you and others. You probably know about this site already, but, you should check out DragBossGarage on RUclips. It's dedicated to the 351Cleveland by a diehard drag racer, lots of great info and history. Thanks again.
I thought this whole time folks were all hording the 4v heads telling everyone there were junk... So they could keep them all of them for themselves. Video was great.
Yep good video… Nothing really beats a factory 4v whether it open or closed chamber. I’ve read for yrs how so many have ridiculed the open chamber heads saying they cause detonation!, only if you run low octane fuel and may be the case in the states. Here in Australia we have 95-98 pump gas at the bowser which assists these older engines to run fine. I own a 347 Clevor with ported 2v open chamber heads with 10:1 comp . It’s a solid lifter engine that makes 400 hp and goes like a bullet. Runs on 98 fuel and have had the dizzy re graphed to suit my car. Never had a detonation or pinging in 12 yrs!!!!? 4v heads on bigger cube engines are certainly the go as they move more air. Also modern camshafts designs compliment the running of these heads to make awesome power!! Definitely stay with them if you’ve got a pair! Jon from down under👍🏼
Great video. The one thing about the exhaust ports is this. It's a tapered inlet/outlet past the valve. The engineers used a clever trick to so solve the shock tower obstruction. Everyone knows that tapering an intake port will broaden the power band and no taper makes a stronger peak. So in the exhaust port the "ramp" actually functions as taper to provide the low pressure reflected wave greater rpm band effect. This is why over camming Clevelands is so common. People try to treat them like SBC's and they're not Chevy's. The obsession with building them like Chevy's is the source of most myths about them. The 'wide open' theme was the driving ethos of the design team. Hence the large intake and exhaust. I still run exclusively Cleveland motors including the 400. Best base engine architecture for two overhead valve heads ever. The LS Chevy is an obvious rip off of it with inline valves instead of canted. At least they finally built a good engine though. 😮😮😅😅😅😂😂😂
I am not a huge Cleveland fan, BUT, back before 460 Swaps were made popular in 78/79 4x4 Ford Trucks, in other words I couldn't afford the Stupid Expensive SWAP kits, much less find a 460 that I could trust, I worked at a Machine Shop, building specifically FORD engines, I took my tired 400 out of my truck (79 F250 4x4 SuperCab Long Box T18-Manual with 3.54/3.55 Gears) - I bored it .030 over, milled the decks, and put custom pistons in it, balanced the crank, I had mildly ported, closed chamber 4V heads, and 4V 351C intake with spacer plates, custom cam (High lift and moderate duration - it was going in a 6500lb truck, I needed some torque), custom headers with IIRC 2" (or could've been 2-1/16 primary tubes, my boss made them by hand for that truck), he was the welding expert, I ran an Edelbrock 750 AVS (not a Holley on daily guy), Melling HV pump (as I do in most of my builds) and I found that a 408 with all those goodies will pull like a freight train from 2000rpm to 6000prm and surprise the crap out of similar trucks with mild 429/460s. - That whole "you need 9000rpm" myth is just that...Yeah on a Boss 302 you need 8000rpm to use the heads, but a 408 @ 6000 is actually the same flow! (6500 on your 377) - I think a lot of that myth comes from the fact that most of those cars I saw, had a solid cam that was equally worthless for torque...And the Carburetors were not optimal for the street use....
There is lots of guys out there with Chevy on the brain. When working with a Cleveland you must forget all that Chevy crap and go with what the Ford engineers had in mind in the 60s. You must get into the the head of the Ford engineers. I have 2v and 4v in almost identical set ups and the 4v kills the 2v everywhere. Non of this "oh 4v for race and 2v for street" that's crap. That's a engine built by a Chevy nut. The 4v is better going fast, going slow, accelerating, driving in traffic, going flat out. The Cleveland is not a Chevy, do not treat it like one. Just to confuse the crap out of everyone, in Australia they did make 2v headed engines with 4 barrel carbs and they also made 2v heads with closed chambers of 54cc. So you can directly compare a closed chambered 4v with a closed chambered 2v. The 4v goes better all round. The 2v tends to increase in power in a linear fashion, but the 4v increases logarithmicly. So go twice as hard in the 2v you get twice the performance. Go twice as hard in a 4v you get four times the performance. They are about equal down low.
I often say that the greatest weakness of the Cleveland is Team Small Port engine builders. They don't understand how a Cleveland works. If you build it the same as your small port engines, you will build it wrong. Almost every camshaft company grinds camshafts based on Chevy based knowledge, which is exactly what you shouldn't do with a Cleveland. They need different camshaft timing events. What most people don't know is that Ford flow test heads ar 5"Hg, which is 63"H2O. When you get up thete, the flow numbers change markedly, not the corrected flow numbers, but the differences between the 4V head and the others.
Good information on the 351 Cleveland! The strongest running car I’ve ever driven 1971 Torino Cobra with a Factory 351 Cleveland 4v engine with a bigger crane blazer camshaft and a 800 cfm carb; thanks for the information I was wanting to put the raised exhaust plates on and did wonder if they would fit with the factory shock towers. Good video thanks!
Interesting video and good information. I agree on no hi-port bolt on exhaust plates with a stock chassis car. I had a set of those port plate stuffers back in the day for awhile with the same results. I liked the mention of magazine days….lol those were the days waiting to get the usual Ford related issues outta the mailbox first week of the month! How times have changed……
Good to see you are out of hibernation brother. Another thing most do not realize is the 4V open chamber factory out flows the 4v closed chamber factory.
Thanks I built racing engines for years and you are dead on keep teaching the young people I have been wanting to do the same but I'm not good with computers
The wrong combo kills 4v clevelands; people build them like a SBC then wonder why they don't feel great. They are a unique platform that falls on it's face if the components don't compliment the heads properly. Letting them work as intended really wakes them up.
Yep. My buddies with SBC engines would tell me all the time, "you need to do this, or do that", usually camshaft related, and I would have to remind them it had 240cc intake ports and a 2.19 intake valve, it was NOT a sbc.
I would like to know your thoughts on stroking the 351 Cleveland, was thinking of a stroker engine for my 1971 Torino Cobra because it a really big heavy car, it did run awesome with the 351 but it needs rebuilt now and I’m thinking of the stroker but I don’t know what size I should go on it, thanks for the video!
Good video with good info, thanks. I raced the 351 Cleveland on dirt tracks for 11 years back in the 80's and 90's. I ran the US 4V closed, 4V open, 2V open and the Aussie 2V closed (known as a 302C in Aussie land).
ALL OF THEM WORKED WELL! No complaints, however, some were better than others, NONE were bad. The 4V closed had great top end H/P, but lacked a little in bottom end torque, the 4V open did not have as much top end H/P as the 4V closed, but still ran well. the 2V open had good bottom end torque but lacked some top end H/P, The Aussie 2V-302C closed heads had good bottom end torque and good top end H/P on the dirt tracks. We won feature races with ALL four types of Cleveland heads. I don't believe FORD made a "bad" Cleveland head, It depended on your use of them in any particular type of Racing or Hot Rodding effort. We were limited to a 2V carb with no more than 500 cfm. (HOLLEY-4412). What was more important was cam selection and cam timing. I tried those exhaust plates on the 351C 4V heads and they sucked, down on power in the heat race, so we pulled them out before the main event, H/P was back, they were junk to me. I know you are talking about Drag Racing here, just thought I would share some of my 351Cleveland experience with you and others.
You probably know about this site already, but, you should check out DragBossGarage on RUclips. It's dedicated to the 351Cleveland by a diehard drag racer, lots of great info and history. Thanks again.
You mean the plates on the intake port floors, dontcha?
I thought this whole time folks were all hording the 4v heads telling everyone there were junk... So they could keep them all of them for themselves. Video was great.
Yes I get as many as I can , but I have had 2 sets stolen from me so they must not be junk!
Yep good video… Nothing really beats a factory 4v whether it open or closed chamber.
I’ve read for yrs how so many have ridiculed the open chamber heads saying they cause detonation!, only if you run low octane fuel and may be the case in the states. Here in Australia we have 95-98 pump gas at the bowser which assists these older engines to run fine.
I own a 347 Clevor with ported 2v open chamber heads with 10:1 comp . It’s a solid lifter engine that makes 400 hp and goes like a bullet.
Runs on 98 fuel and have had the dizzy re graphed to suit my car.
Never had a detonation or pinging in 12 yrs!!!!?
4v heads on bigger cube engines are certainly the go as they move more air. Also modern camshafts designs compliment the running of these heads to make awesome power!! Definitely stay with them if you’ve got a pair!
Jon from down under👍🏼
Great video. The one thing about the exhaust ports is this. It's a tapered inlet/outlet past the valve. The engineers used a clever trick to so solve the shock tower obstruction. Everyone knows that tapering an intake port will broaden the power band and no taper makes a stronger peak. So in the exhaust port the "ramp" actually functions as taper to provide the low pressure reflected wave greater rpm band effect. This is why over camming Clevelands is so common. People try to treat them like SBC's and they're not Chevy's. The obsession with building them like Chevy's is the source of most myths about them.
The 'wide open' theme was the driving ethos of the design team. Hence the large intake and exhaust.
I still run exclusively Cleveland motors including the 400. Best base engine architecture for two overhead valve heads ever. The LS Chevy is an obvious rip off of it with inline valves instead of canted. At least they finally built a good engine though. 😮😮😅😅😅😂😂😂
great video content, from an old clevo lover down under
I am not a huge Cleveland fan, BUT, back before 460 Swaps were made popular in 78/79 4x4 Ford Trucks, in other words I couldn't afford the Stupid Expensive SWAP kits, much less find a 460 that I could trust, I worked at a Machine Shop, building specifically FORD engines, I took my tired 400 out of my truck (79 F250 4x4 SuperCab Long Box T18-Manual with 3.54/3.55 Gears)
-
I bored it .030 over, milled the decks, and put custom pistons in it, balanced the crank, I had mildly ported, closed chamber 4V heads, and 4V 351C intake with spacer plates, custom cam (High lift and moderate duration - it was going in a 6500lb truck, I needed some torque), custom headers with IIRC 2" (or could've been 2-1/16 primary tubes, my boss made them by hand for that truck), he was the welding expert, I ran an Edelbrock 750 AVS (not a Holley on daily guy), Melling HV pump (as I do in most of my builds) and I found that a 408 with all those goodies will pull like a freight train from 2000rpm to 6000prm and surprise the crap out of similar trucks with mild 429/460s.
-
That whole "you need 9000rpm" myth is just that...Yeah on a Boss 302 you need 8000rpm to use the heads, but a 408 @ 6000 is actually the same flow! (6500 on your 377) - I think a lot of that myth comes from the fact that most of those cars I saw, had a solid cam that was equally worthless for torque...And the Carburetors were not optimal for the street use....
Love your vids man! Hopefully I can tag along on a race day this year!
Great video, I like hearing other’s experiences.
There is lots of guys out there with Chevy on the brain.
When working with a Cleveland you must forget all that Chevy crap and go with what the Ford engineers had in mind in the 60s. You must get into the the head of the Ford engineers.
I have 2v and 4v in almost identical set ups and the 4v kills the 2v everywhere. Non of this "oh 4v for race and 2v for street" that's crap. That's a engine built by a Chevy nut.
The 4v is better going fast, going slow, accelerating, driving in traffic, going flat out.
The Cleveland is not a Chevy, do not treat it like one.
Just to confuse the crap out of everyone, in Australia they did make 2v headed engines with 4 barrel carbs and they also made 2v heads with closed chambers of 54cc.
So you can directly compare a closed chambered 4v with a closed chambered 2v.
The 4v goes better all round.
The 2v tends to increase in power in a linear fashion, but the 4v increases logarithmicly.
So go twice as hard in the 2v you get twice the performance. Go twice as hard in a 4v you get four times the performance. They are about equal down low.
I often say that the greatest weakness of the Cleveland is Team Small Port engine builders. They don't understand how a Cleveland works. If you build it the same as your small port engines, you will build it wrong. Almost every camshaft company grinds camshafts based on Chevy based knowledge, which is exactly what you shouldn't do with a Cleveland. They need different camshaft timing events. What most people don't know is that Ford flow test heads ar 5"Hg, which is 63"H2O. When you get up thete, the flow numbers change markedly, not the corrected flow numbers, but the differences between the 4V head and the others.
Good information on the 351 Cleveland! The strongest running car I’ve ever driven 1971 Torino Cobra with a Factory 351 Cleveland 4v engine with a bigger crane blazer camshaft and a 800 cfm carb; thanks for the information I was wanting to put the raised exhaust plates on and did wonder if they would fit with the factory shock towers. Good video thanks!
Interesting video and good information. I agree on no hi-port bolt on exhaust plates with a stock chassis car. I had a set of those port plate stuffers back in the day for awhile with the same results. I liked the mention of magazine days….lol those were the days waiting to get the usual Ford related issues outta the mailbox first week of the month! How times have changed……
Good to see you are out of hibernation brother. Another thing most do not realize is the 4V open chamber factory out flows the 4v closed chamber factory.
Yes it does, mostly at low and mid lifts due to the valve being unshrouded. My open chamber heads actually outran my closed chamber heads.
Thanks I built racing engines for years and you are dead on keep teaching the young people I have been wanting to do the same but I'm not good with computers
Great video, brother. Is that what they call a 4v head vs. a 2v head.
He showed both.
Cool, Thanks for your testing. Can i ask why you dont use closed chambers.
Thanks for the comment. I do run closed chamber heads. I have not run an open chamber head in over 20 years.
I had a iron 4v closed chamber headed Cleveland on a engine dyno , those exhaust plates killed 40 or so hp, never put them back on
The short radius in the intake is the only thing you need to worry about besides putting a tongue on the floor of that intake
I don’t need to worry about any of it at this point as I no longer own any Cleveland stuff. 😂
good info
The wrong combo kills 4v clevelands; people build them like a SBC then wonder why they don't feel great. They are a unique platform that falls on it's face if the components don't compliment the heads properly. Letting them work as intended really wakes them up.
Yep. My buddies with SBC engines would tell me all the time, "you need to do this, or do that", usually camshaft related, and I would have to remind them it had 240cc intake ports and a 2.19 intake valve, it was NOT a sbc.
@@hetzlerracing5490 good 4V Cleveland Cam specs would baffle SBC guys.
Agreed. In my opinion, the Cleveland is the most misunderstood performance engine in history
I would like to know your thoughts on stroking the 351 Cleveland, was thinking of a stroker engine for my 1971 Torino Cobra because it a really big heavy car, it did run awesome with the 351 but it needs rebuilt now and I’m thinking of the stroker but I don’t know what size I should go on it, thanks for the video!
A stroker will definitely help move that big car easier. I wouldn't go any smaller than a 393.
Who knows what really goes on with exhaust gases being very high pressures. They're allgeussing,a flow bench sure isn't gonna tell the story
good info